So a few of y'all have commented that the background music in this video is really loud. I am sorry about that, and will work on that for future videos. In the meantime I have added full captions to this one for those of you who are unable to understand what I'm saying. I know it's a band-aid solution, but that's the most that I can do short of reuploading the video, which I don't want to do since this is my best performing video by far (thanks for that btw).
I was about to comment something, but, please understand the reason I was going to make the effort was because your production quality is otherwise very good considering your channel is so new! So don't be discouraged!
100% agree with you that the whole "skyward sword flopped because people were tired of the formula" argument only became a thing retroactively after botw released Skyward sword is a deeply flawed game but the formula is the one thing it didn't fuck up. Everyone who's played it always says the dungeons were the highlight of the game because of how well designed they were
Personally my biggest problem with Skyward Sword is that with only three overworld areas the parts of the game between the dungeons become same-y. Especially in the third act where there are no dungeons to break up the overworld traversal. Even with the little things done to shake up the monotony slightly such as Faron Woods extending into a lake, the stealth section in the midst of a terrain-changing eruption, and the Sand Sea, it's just not enough.
As a kid, finding the items in dungeons was by far my favorite part. LttP, OoT, MM, and I think the Oracle games? My saves looked weird, as I would get the item, then leave the dungeon to play around with the item, often going to the next dungeon and get the item from that one. Even as an adult, in LttP as soon as I get the PowerGlove, the first thing I do is leave the dungeon, so I can get the Flippers, and upgrade the Shield, Boomerang, and get whatever other goodies before I fight twinmold. I remember reading about the item rental in A Link Between Worlds and thinking... "They took away literally the best part of Zelda?".
@@-DeScruff It’s odd because that was an intentional aspect of the series for a while. In MM Tatl will even nag at you for doing the dungeons out of order that way. Starting with Windwaker they just decided to not let you do that anymore for whatever reason.
I got this recommended as a huge ALBW glazer, and I do think you made many valid points. Doesn't affect my opinion of the game but I do lean towards more classic styled Zelda and I've just come to settle for the "meet in the middle" approach something like Echoes of Wisdom has. Mad respect for loving Zelda 2 by the way, can't bring myself to replay that game over most of the other first 6 you mentioned
7:24 as someone who played ALBW before ALttP… nah. The amount of charm the game (mostly because it’s newer and the devs now have decades of experience), I think that a fresh take on an old concept like this is actually wonderful and improved upon a lot of the ideas. But, you know, that’s just opinions talkng
I feel like you forget the fact that A Link Between Worlds is basically a sequel to A Link to the Past. The reason why the overworld is very similar to begin with. Item rental gave a new purpose to all those rupees that were sitting in our pockets this whole time, plus it only really comes into play if you die alot which surely most don't in a Zelda game of all things. Plus, it allows us to go to any of the dungeons whenever we want unlike older games. Go watch Egoraptors video to see why he likes it. Lorule is a nice change of pace plus seeing a what if scenario where Lorule's royal destroyed their triforce to stop the fighting only to realize that the triforce is what kept the land together is a grim aspect of the game and when Hilda tries to fix it by attempting to steal Hyrule's triforce. Desperation can make even a kind ruler like Hilda fall to hard times. I think ALBW did a better job at open world then what BotW and TotK ever did.
@@rockowlgamer631 the problem is that the use for rupees is completely arbitrary. It’s basically the triforce quest in Windwaker all over again. Doing things in any order is to the game’s detriment, not an advantage.
@ThePlinkster well that's not true. Being able to go anywhere was good and the rental system is how they let us do it. Not to mention it is the prelude to what the sheikah slate is for botw. The point of albtw is for the zelda team experiment with the freedom concept they gave us in their next big game
@@Immunity1080 the problem is that total freedom is an inherently bad thing to design games around. It actively creates problems for little to no benefit.
@ThePlinkster that is not absolute. Elden ring is one very fine example. Unless you're saying that about zelda specifically then you can disregard my statement. Despite my disagreement with you about the quality of albw, I'm not a fan of open world zelda and prefer everything before botw myself. But albw works as is and is a fantastic game
That bit about BOTW seeming to have something more interesting over the horizon that never actually comes is so true. I thought the 4 divine beasts were a warm up to the main plot and dungeons, and I was so excited to see what came next (going into the game almost completely blind) I thought they were passing far too quickly to be the main focus. About halfway through the game I realized they *were* the main focus and simply thought, "That's it?" Great video, super informative for someone like me who hasn't played A Link Between Worlds yet (and doesn't have any means to). Items not being utilized outside of their respective dungeons is bad enough in any Zelda game, but buying the items is crazy, it really does remove a lot of the mystery and adventure that a dungeon is supposed to create.
And the biggest problem is, the design of Hyrule Castle in BotW shows that they could translate traditional dungeon layouts well into BotW's free-roam gameplay style. Then they managed to screw even that up in Tears of the Kingdom.
I frikin love A Link Between Worlds, the jump into walls mechanic, the (kind of but not really) remake of A Link to the Past. It’s just so fun, although my favorite 2D Zelda is Minish Cap 😅
That's great! I'm not trying to tell anyone that they're wrong for liking this game, I just wanted to share why I personally don't think its a very good entry.
Of course. The girl called Sano who was unable to finish Ocarina of Time because it was "too hard", is not the measuring stick used by Aonuma as representing the fans. Aonuma started well when he picked up from Miyamoto because he at first had to follow the old design thinking, but it shows, he is against deep moving stories and against challenge. Everything must be light fun.
Aonuma himself said he got bored with the Zelda formula. So clearly all he plans on doing is whatever the heck he wants with Zelda. Meaning there is no longer a formula. Cause for him a formula is "restrictive" which is actually just saying Aonuma isn't creative like Miyamoto was. We got a big empty world in BOTW where the only thing you could do was increase your health, your stamina and inventory space....we got making weird abominations with rockets as a penis in TOTK.....and now we get playable Zelda just cause.......I wouldn't be surprised if Aonuma makes a Zelda platformer or Zelda kart racer next. He just doesn't care about what made Zelda, ZELDA.
@@ItApproaches I think it's clear he does listen to feedback, TP was a direct result of WW's artstyle dislike, BotW was a direct result of SS's linearity, TotK was a direct result of BotW's lack of story. It's very likely he's more focused on this new direction of open ended exploration as he has expressed disinterest in returning to the traditional game structure. But he has been perceptive to feedback.
@@GoldenLeafsMovies He literally insulted the die hard Zelda fans when we made it clear we want tradition Zelda. He said something along the lines of those who want traditional Zelda don't know what they're talking about.
Modern Zelda's biggest crime is being boring. Give me a great degree of freedom? Cool. Give me a great degree of freedom where the content that exists is boring and the freedom isn't balanced properly? Not cool. I got bored like 10-20 hours into Breath of the Wild because its core gameplay loop and content I found to be boring. I want to play a Link Between Worlds someday.
Modern zelda isnt even true freedom. No choice actually matters, its just about whether you bother with the main quest and in which order. I dont expect zelda to be like bg3, but they seem more worried about abstrqct freedom than on an engaging story. Id take linear storytelling over this empty freedom anyday
@Tiepobadaae See you're right, but I wasn't expecting Story Branching in a Zelda game, anyway. I WAS expecting a greater emphasis on resource management. The limited weapon durability and inventory management seemed to imply I would be forced to come up with interesting decisions in combat. And then the rune powers ruined everything with their limited cooldown.
I have played OoT like 50 times in my life. I never get tired of it. BOTW I managed two playthroughs and my god, first one was not fun, years later I thought I would give it a second try, even less fun then the first time. TOTK was a slight improvement but I have no intention of ever playing it a second time, which shouldn't happen with a Zelda game.
Is it possible to thoroughly agree and thoroughly disagree at the same time? I absolutely demolished Worlds front to back. I bought it at 11am on it's launch day and had the game 100% by the following morning. I had hero mode 100% by the following day. I did a three heart/no fairy hero run finished that week. And I've gone through it several more times since. I ATE that game like it was my Death Row dinner. But watching this video, yeah you bring up some interesting things. Pitfalls of design? Not really something I want to discuss in a RUclips comment, but definitely things for me to think on more. I'll have to break the game out with a new lens. I do think the talking point around Skyward Sword is also an interesting thing you note because it's true and false at once. It's all very anecdotal but, as someone who grew up through Twilight Princess, there were certainly mumblings from communities who were calling Zelda a series of retreads even all the way back in 2007. Maybe not big reviewers because they praise anything big budget Nintendo and have no salient insight. But there were pockets of old fans that thought it was more of the same and online at least, that game is very polarizing because it's generally so safe. The exceedingly, laughably low difficulty of the game in a series only further losing it's teeth after 1992 only compounded that. Skyward Sword years later having a host of additional aggravations on top of being extremely easy (again) and following the classic mold made that mold stand out a lot more for people. He's no authority on anything but, EgoRaptor infamously called this out long before Wild to a lot of mixed reception. What I think is more accurate is that with Zelda being a juggernaut, people didn't really want to say their frustrations out loud until the big authority themselves, Nintendo, not only brought up the discussion of conventions but backed it up by breaking them in Wild. So it was technically a retrospective bit of commentary as you say, but that only became frequent when people felt emboldened to finally do so under the umbrella of Wild (and it's roaring success) shielding their criticisms of past entries. And I'm telling you, bad mouthing Zelda used to have dire consequences. When Jim Sterling gave Breath of the Wild a *generous* 7/10, he had his site DDOS'd and lost 48 hours of income. For a fucking *7/10*. Hell hath no fury like a Nintendo fan scorned. All that said, I can't wait for more from you. This was a good critique. And me personally, I cannot stand modern Zelda. I'm just glad to see I wasn't some crazy contrarian for the last decade for not liking Wild/Tears. There's more of this sentiment coming out about these games that I had 6 years ago and it's cathartic.
I really like A Link Between Worlds because I really enjoyed the wall merging mechanic and thought the dungeons were a lot of fun despite being simpler than previous games. That said, I agree that the biggest issue by far is the item rental system. Obtaining all the key items at a shop is pretty underwhelming compared to finding them as part of your adventuring is pretty underwhelming and it is unfortunate that few of the puzzles can assume that you have multiple items.
Solid video even though I think A Link Between World’s is before when the series lost its magic. I can’t wait for you to rip into Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom, because those games absolutely deserve it.
@@rottencabbage2021 I agree, I still think LBW is an alright game for the most part, but it was the start of everything that made modern Zelda so awful.
I feel like the best way to do a "non-linear" Zelda game would be something like this: Starting semi-tutorial area, forest region, whatever, with two options for dungeons to tackle. In each one, you're given some kind of magic energy construct version of an item. It acts exactly like the real thing, but disappears if you leave and only reappears when you come back. In order to full earn the item, you need to clear the dungeon, at which point it becomes real and you can use it anywhere as normal. Both dungeon items are needed to fully exit the starting region. From there, every larger overworld region can be accessed at any time. There are three new dungeons you can access from the getgo. These are what we'll call the "easy tier dungeons." Every easy tier dungeon contains an item that grants access to a more dangerous area, within its region, in which *two* "hard tier dungeons" are accessible. In this way, while the game won't be able to account for *every* item you might have up until that point, it can at least be certain you'll have both starter dungeon items as well as the easy tier item of that region, which along with its own hard tier item would give them plenty to work with when designing puzzles. Different regions and dungeons can also have enemies and puzzles that don't REQUIRE, but can be made easier using, items from other regions, along with shortcuts and hidden bonuses that require them. Changes the experience significantly between playthroughs. Semi-adapt BOTW's concept of tackling the final dungeon at any time. You can't beat the final boss immediately, but it's a massive dungeon and there's always SOMETHING to do or find inside with every new item you get.
Echoes of Wisdom basically kinda does this. You have to do the 1st dungeon 1st to get rid of the fog on the overworld. After that pretty much the whole overworld is accessible, though you can only do the Gerudo or Zora dungeons next. After that it's Hyrule Castle, and then after that, it's 3 more dungeons in any order, then the final dungeon.
there are ALBW dungeons that have "dungeon items" kinda. Turtle rock gives you the hylian shield, allowing you to block the wizrobes. The ice palace has the energy scroll, which is required to reach one of the chests.
We just have to hope that indie devs start making more traditional style Zelda games, since Nintendo seems uninterested in doing so themselves anymore. I can see that Echoes of Wisdom was their attempt to appease classic Zelda fans, and I did find the game fun, but it still falls short in terms of classic style Zeldas.
@@_sparrowhawk I'm not sure what you mean lol, there's a growing group of Zelda fans who miss the traditional style games, and would be more than happy to buy indie games made in that style, myself included. In fact, I have bought and played several already.
@@_sparrowhawk The problem isn't that the games don't sell, per se. The problem is that those style of games require a lot of work, a lot of talent, and a lot of time. That means money. There's a lot more risk to developing a Twilight Princess than there is a Breath of the Wild. For a Breath of the Wild, you can just have procedural generation do the start of the work for you by uploading in stock textures and assets, then having it do the first pass for the geography and biomes. Have a few graphics people do a quality control pass, then place in your handmade assets around the map as points of interest. If your map is pretty empty? That's a feature, not a bug, because it means there's plenty of room for DLC and expansions. Gotta make those pay pigs buy the game again and again after all! By contrast, something like a Twilight Princess or Majora's Mask that's entirely hand made? That requires a LOT more people doing a lot more work. That means comparatively more money, as well as time. If Ocarina of Time were to be released today, up to current standards, it would cost *several* times more to make than BotW or TotK. This is to say nothing of the higher degree of talent needed in the writing team, or the level design team - especially now that they can just cover up weak plot elements with melodramatic voice acting. It's would be a huge risk to try and make a current generation AAA old-style 3d Zelda, and it would cost a TON of money. Which means an indie dev is very unlikely to even try, even as demand goes up. Especially if it was a new IP. The best shot at getting one of those type of games would be as someone's passion project. We may see it some time in the next ten years, but its up in the air whether it would succeed or not. It may end up being a good game that just flies under the radar due to bad marketing.
I get your point. It's funny for me how a Zelda game is resumed to a lot of people by it's formula around finding new items in themed dungeons, but I get it, everything looks mysterious, "more magical" and adds to the identity of the game's "chapters". Like, water temple in ocarina = longshot = annoying water level system = morpha etc But there's so much beauty behind the level design of those new games that you so "hate". I love the oldschool Zelda temples + items, but, at the same time, for me at least, Link Between Worlds has an exquisite level design, so well thought, fun, organic, pleasant to play... For me, it's the best "2D" Zelda. Games with this kind of approach and level design have their downfalls, but, overall, are very fun and well made.
Interesting take on a Link Between Worlds. Personally it's one of my favorite games in the franchise and one of my top recommendations for someone who's never played a Zelda game before because it's not too difficult and shows the player a general idea of how the games work. I do understand what you've said about the dungeon design and do find it a little disappointing that they have to be designed the way they are. As for the world being the same, that's another understandable grievance to have with the game and I'm pretty sure it was done for nostalgia-pandering reasons. It's important to understand the context of a Link Between World's release. This was around the time when the 3DS and Wii U weren't selling particularly well and Nintendo was trying to draw in their core audience with some nostalgic titles like this and Yoshi's New Island, and even new entries to long-awaited IPs like Pikmin and Chibi-Robo.
I although I really love "A Link Between Worlds" I completely agree in your assessment. At the time I was happy to see a return to form for handheld Zelda game after the DS era games. For a while it did seem like Nintendo would be up for making more of these types of Zelda games, but they never really did.
@@ThePlinkster That's cool. It's just one of those things. Those games were very experimental with the controls which alienated a lot of people at the time. I wasn't keen on scratching up my DS screen by just walking around so it was a pass.
@@tutekki yeah, I’m kinda hit or miss on the controls. They’re either wholly unnecessary or incredible. Either way they’re not the reason I love the games so much.
@@ThePlinkster People resonate with Skitty because we know TotK was not that great. Especially if you played BotW first. ALBW however is at least more interesting than TotK ever was, the story was nice and a fun twist of a what if scenario if the kingdom destroyed their triforce instead of hiding it.
Oh no, no, no, nothing ever destroyed a gameplay loop in Zelda the way weapon durability did in the open world Switch games. For TotK, the loop broke so hard because of weapon durability that the game's rating among fans litterally dropped from an 11/10 in the first months to a 5/10 at best since then. The game now gets an incredible amount of hate from players who stopped having fun with it the moment the gameplay loop stopped rewarding their engagement in combat and exploration with stuff that was worth the trouble of seeing their hard earned weapons break after a couple of swings. ALBW's item shop is the result of a compromise between open exploration and dungeon puzzles. Was it good? Not necessarily, but once bought, you can at least upgrade them if you engage in further overworld exploration. Plus, the dungeons hold some goodies like master ore to upgrade the master sword or the hylian shield that can block fire and magic. Compare that to the whole bunch of nothing sprinkled on more nothing you find in TotK's dungeons.
@@omicron3012 While I agree for the most part, I don’t think weapon durability by itself is what made the fanbase start to hate TotK. I also don’t think that weapon durability is conceptually as bad as item rental. Regardless of how it was implemented in BotW/TotK, weapon durability _can_ work as a mechanic. Item rental can’t.
I know it's not the topic but for me Twilight Princess is the king of Zelda games, check everthing and was the culmination of all the Zelda games released before and after it (even SS), OoT was just the rough draft (even though it was OoT that made me fall in love with Zelda )
For most of your points on ALBW I agree, but for some reason it’s literally my favorite video game ever after ocarina of time and Majora’s Mask. I love understanding video game design a lot, but I don’t understand why I love ALBW so much. Anyways as someone who has played and loved almost every game of the series, I’m interested to hear such unique takes especially ones that aren’t afraid to point out the problems with the games. I believe that the people who love something should understand its flaws best.
@@ThePlinkster thank you. I actually might like Phantom Hourglass more than ALBW so I’m replaying it, but they’re hard to compare. Also my reason for liking ALBW can’t be nostalgia; I first played it last year.
@@HyrulianTimelineTraveler Ha, there’s no need to justify your tastes! Also, Phantom Hourglass is a top tier Zelda, so I can fully agree with you there.
I did all 136 shrines in BoTW, did all the DLC dungeons, completed the freakin survival dungeon to get endless Master Sword (It was... rather satisfying.), and i collected ALL 900 Korok Seeds. (The final one i got in LonLon Ranch, i still remember... heck, final 10 Korok Seeds were a freaking comparing game with the interactive map). I even planned to upgrade all equipment, which meant to grind dragons... but got bored midway. All that Breath of The Wild wastness became a chore just 10 hours into the game. I'd rather play Skyrim, at least it has dungeons and underground areas... rather than Test Rooms from Portal in Breath of the Wild.
I think this might be overthinking it a little. The problem with BotW and TotK is that they're chasing trends at the expense of identity. BotW is a direct result of the Witcher 3. It's the Zelda aesthetic and identity applied in a rather lackluster way to something that vaguely approaches the Witcher 3 design ethos, with some other open world mechanics thrown in for good measure. It's borrowing from a big fat number of other franchises so hard that it doesn't feel anything like what we grew up with. Unfortunately, that feel doesn't cater to us, and as part of the Zelda fanbase, we've effectively been replaced. There will never be another *good* old style Zelda game. At least until some other franchise steps in to take up the mantle for the game type.
Ocarina and Majora are tied for my favorite, and both are in the more linear style to some extent. I love BotW, but that’s because I usually don’t like open world games and I’m glad it just has stuff to do between areas. That’s not a high bar for me. My main experience with the genre was GTA style games where the most fun thing to do is harass NPCs, something that only connects to the main gameplay when it becomes an obstacle, when you didn’t mean to trigger the punishment it comes with. To me, clearing the low bar I’d been accustomed to was something wonderful and worth playing for.
I recently just got link between worlds after wanting it for so long, because LTTP is my fav Zelda game. Hopefully i can enjoy it at least for the kid in me
Don't let my opinions be the thing that prevents you from enjoying it. Like I said at the beginning I don't hate the game, I just think that it kinda misses the point of what made the older games so great.
Stinky Wii U....the disrespect! I got BOTW on Wii U and said F U to the Switch cause there was no logical reason to buy a whole new system for a game when I have the system the game was already made for. Not like the Switch version was better outside of minor improved loading times. Till this day I will defend that the Wii U is a vastly superior console to the Switch. Though in the end, BOTW and TOTK were crap Zelda games and Aonuma has destroyed the Zelda franchise. I was a die hard Zelda fan since the NES days.
@@ItApproaches Yeah, looking back it was really silly for me to wait for a Switch to play BotW, but to be fair I was also really looking forward to Mario Odyssey so I wanted a Switch anyway.
@@ThePlinkster I see. I personally hated Mario Odyssey. It looked great, but man, worst 3D Mario game in my view. Sure we had no idea if it would be good or bad before release, but after it was out, man...what a drag of an experience. I had to force myself to play the game to it's conclusion.
@@ItApproaches I actually really loved Mario Odyssey, it’s one of my favorite Mario games in general. It’s kinda ironic how I liked it so much more than BotW despite both games making somewhat similar changes to their respective series.
@@ThePlinkster My issues with Odyssey was the realism doesn't work, aka New Donk City. The hat gimmick with controlling things didn't do anything for me, the random realistic looking T-Rex made no damn sense in a Mario game. Replacing stars with moons? Why all of a sudden change that? The utter lack of bosses. You just fought the rabbit guys again and again then Bowser. Though my biggest issue was the gameplay loop was horrid. It was just you're in a level oh look a moon! Oh look another, oh another, and ooh look another. It was just collect all the ones you can see in an environment, then go to the next level and repeat. And the game was a prime example of the saying to much of a good thing. There was no reason for so many moons for 100% completion....you don't even get anything for them. Buying costumes? POINTLESS filler content. If each costume actually effected gameplay then that would be great! But going through all the effort just to change Mario's shirt or shorts that does nothing? Big old headache, nothing more. Galaxy 1 will always be peak 3D Mario. Then for me it goes 3D World/Bowser Fury. I really hope the next 3D Mario is more like Bowsers Fury style, that was great!
One correction, it isn't true that Skyward Sword wasn't hated until post-BotW era Zelda. There was a larger movement to open-form Zelda that actually more than likely inspired the less linear formulas both ALbW and BotW adopted The movement was started by Ocarina of Time haters back in 2014 around the same time Egoraptor's infamous Sequelitis came out. If you go back to watching youtube around that period, you'll find a lot of general discontent with Nintendo constantly trying to pander to Ocarina fans. A massive outcry of fans started loathing a "Formulaic" and "Linear" formula, and started begging for a more open-form formula. Skyward Sword was an incredibly linear experience, and as such received a lot of backlash from fans around the 2012-2014 period. Personally, I like the linear formula more, but it's undeniable that this "open-form" movement started LONG before BotW even came out
@@averysketchygamer3241 I never said that it wasn’t hated, just that the reason it was hated had nothing to do with the “formula.” Also, nothing about the formula inherently requires it to be linear. The series has always had varying degrees of openness, even prior to LBW.
@@ThePlinkster I am aware of this. Wind Waker is the greatest example of this fact, though Egoraptor argued that post-ALTTP, the Zelda formula was complacent in being linear. This caused an uprising of Zelda fans arguing against the Linear formula, hence why they liked ALBW, as it returned to ALTTP's more non-Linear formula Of course I think this is silly, but this is the argument that was made back in 2012-2014. For those fans, BotW and ALBW were a breath of fresh air, as they wanted a formula that didn't restrict their progression. And they got a game where they could fight the final boss before even reaching the first village. As someone who thinks that BotW's "Fight the Final Boss immediately after the tutorial" is somewhat cheap and doesn't really contribute to the game at all, it didn't really give me much. But for other people, this was the case. I was just explaining people's thoughts during the time, as I've been a fan since about 2006.
@@ThePlinkster yes, people often use the terms classic Zelda and linear Zelda interchangeably, but A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time the foundational classic Zelda titles both allow you to do many things in different orders.
And also Egoraptor is wrong on a few things like having to wait out enemies to attack when dude just throw deku nuts at them if they're weak to them so I really hate when his stans take what he says as gospel smh
@@dashannsche8460 a lot of people have had the same complaint. I’m sorry about that. I’ve added captions to the video, but it’s something I’m going to have to work on in future videos.
3:08 Ehhhhh I'd say OOT has aged quite a bit and can feel like a very sterile experience with clunky mechanics. Wind Waker will always be a more beautiful, emotional game and frankly better. As for 2d zelda games, I'd say Minish Cap is frankly the best, it is so sleek and perfected, has a great gimmick that never runs thin and never feels unfair or frustrating like the first 3.
@@LaurianeG. beautiful? Sure. Emotional? Debatable. I love Windwaker as much as the next guy but I think it struggles in quite a few areas that Ocarina of Time doesn’t.
@@ThePlinkster OOT's world just doesn't feel appealing, it's characters unmemorable, it's story dull compared to wind waker's more earnest story about regret, future, etc, with charming characters you get attached to. It just also... FEELS better to play. Fights, items, etc, it all just flows better. Moving link around feels good and fun. Like OOT is important for video game history but in hindsight it feels very... stock. Generic. It doesn't really have much personality.
@@LaurianeG. that’s a hard disagree from me. Ocarina of Time has the best story in the entire series in my opinion. It’s a story with a ton of subtext, especially in its allusions to Peter Pan. Don’t get me wrong, WW’s story is great too, but it just doesn’t make you read between the lines like OoT does. Also, I never particularly cared for how Windwaker controlled. I much prefer the slightly stiffer movement of the N64 games.
my comment on you feeling overly negative on the games past 2000s aside and a few nitpick aside, this really does align with my observations every time I play the game. I like it, I want to love it, but it does show when pretty much all dungeons except lorule castle don't even feel as fun and challenging as the first dungeon from friggin skyward sword, a game often criticized for being too easy lol. It's like it's good cool dungeon concepts but like you said they are too short, too easy and it leaves you disappointed. Like wait that's it?
@@LaurianeG. thank you! I wouldn’t say I’m overly negative on the post 2000 Zeldas, I just tend to prefer the older ones overall. I still love every Zelda up until BotW on some level.
he just called the tornado rod lame in general???? It's easily the best weapon in the game against any enemy that can be stunned, at least with the nice version.
Heya! I like your (based) hot takes, combined with some pretty solid game analysis. I do feel the Zelda series has... been on a weird track, lately, and it's nice to hear fresh perspectives on that whole situation. Looking forward to what's next!
Zelda games changed with Windwaker cause Miyamoto stepped down as the lead, and Aonuma took over. Though Windwaker was Aonuma's best work, then Skyward Sword. Twilight Princess was good...but oddly, forgettable to me.
i have played NEARLY every LoZ game, i refused to play Windwaker, mostly because of the droned out sailing and empty void of water between islands. I remember Nintendo hyping up A link Between Worlds as a direct sequel of A Link To The Past, and was extremely disappointed when it came to the whole gameplay itself. I felt that the dungeon generation was lackluster and didn't do LoZ justice. The Item Rental was a massive pain and the constant "You have found (insert color rupee) which is worth (insert 1, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 500)" The fact that I was able to beat it in a single day in my late teens/early 20s left me a bit vacant for my need to fill that void. Twilight Princess was GOOD, but it could have been GREAT. BoTW was.....lacking in lots of aspects. After getting EVERYTHING and completing every sidequest, getting every collectible, beating the Hero's Ballad and getting the Master Cycle Zero was.....disappointing. I already had everything I needed, and that ATV Bike was a massive turnoff, especially when the map was just so empty. I mainly spent the majority watching Link's arse run around and occasionally fight a small group of enemies. Skyward Sword disappointed me with the Stamina feature that NOBODY wanted. But the biggest disappointment of Link Between Worlds was the Wall Merging; It was overused, even as a core mechanic of the whole game. At least Spirit Tracks and Phantom Hourglass had fun aspects during travel. The Echoes of Wisdom at least made an attempt at getting back to the original formula, but fell short with how broken the Echo Staff is. Like, putting a bed down anywhere to cross gaps made it easy to skip puzzles. It took me a total of 10 hours to 100% it going in blind. Replay value of LoZ games AFTER Majora's Mask went down, fast. I barely want to play Twilight Princess again, but remembering the headache of the failure horseback fighting keeps me from doing it and that was a MASSIVE step-up for Epona, though I did like killing everything with wolf Link, and barely played as regular outside of dungeons or finding hear pieces.
Didn't expect someone so young to have those Zelda games as a part of their top games in the series list. I grew up playing the original Zelda and Zelda 2 on the NES, and still play them from time to time, but A Link to the Past was what I played the most in the teen years, played that game way too many times, which is why I did originally love A Link Between Worlds, as it felt like A Link to the Past enough, but when I go back and replay it, I no longer find it as enjoyable as the first time. One thing you mentioned in your video that nobody ever seems to talk about, especially in any Zelda lore videos is the fact that Lorule looks too much like the Dark World(aka the Golden Land corrupted) from A Link to the Past, which makes no narrative sense, and it still leaves a really sour taste in my mouth, I think it may have just been Nintendo being lazy or something, but it is so off-putting after playing LttP so much growing up, and understanding the lore of the Dark World, then seeing what appears to be the Dark World in A Link Between Worlds, but instead it's now called "Lorule"??? Like what? Nintendo really has some lore to explain here. Great video, loved the perspective, and yeah, the item rental system really does take away from the charm of traditional Zelda. Growing up with Zelda, I always looked forward to what the next dungeon item was, I really enjoyed the surprise in each game, now that new item charm Zelda once had is unfortunately gone, which makes the next Zelda game less exciting to look forward to. To me, Zelda was always about exploration, cool items to use and play with, and the dungeons which combined both of those last two elements... *sigh*
@@KevinVeroneau Thanks for the kind words! Yeah, I played a lot the different Zeldas all at once, and I just happened to find myself wanting to replay the older ones more frequently than the newer ones.
I do agree on like everything in this video, although I will defend that the wall merging mechanic was very well used in ALBW. It's the best part of the game by far and was fully utilized in every way possible in the game imo.
@@supahstarrallyah8360 Maybe someday, but it doesn’t really fit the rest of the series. I don’t have as much to say about it as I do the singleplayer games.
@@ThePlinksterIt's honestly good though. It's not connected story wise to the rest, but it certainly was a testing grounds for modern Zelda stuff. Costumes were a test for BotW armor. A costume that let's you talk to cats sounds like a very recent game inclusion but started there as well.
i dont like modern zelda but i do think albw is closer to classic than it is to modern. albw feels like the first game that was meant to be built upon and expanded, an old formula reimagined that needed to be refined. but instead of doing that, they threw it all away and made botw. also one thing u didnt menation is that there are still big treasures in albw dungeons to find that add to your inventory, albeit in a different way. but i do have to admit that having no items in dungeons at all was too much. they shouldve found a better middle ground than they did.
Hey, _A Link Between Worlds_ is a good game that channels the same spirit as _A Link to the Past!_ I also like _Tri Force Heroes_ , even if it's a downgrade from _ALBW_ AND _Four Swords_ .
Sucks is a strong word. I have loved Zelda since SNES and have nothing but love for the formula, but the new direction was welcoming. Some of it isn't great, but if they could truly incorporate old/new effectively; it would be remarkable. Even with everyone hating on TOTK, I have always wanted to play a Zelda game in a world after the final boss is beaten and this game gave me that experience. It's hard to completely shift a game like this, but it certainly doesn't suck and will only get better.
@@journeyproud If it were only A Link Between Worlds by itself I probably wouldn’t use the word “sucks.” Even if it were both LBW and BotW I probably wouldn’t either. I do think that the general direction that series is going in deserves to be described with that word though. That’s great if you feel otherwise though.
I actually really like ALBW and while I disagree that its not a good game I do respect your opinion and you do make some points that I do agree with like with the item rental stuff. I am curious as to how you feel about Skyward Sword as its one of my favorite Zelda games and I would argue that its the most over hated Zelda game ever. Also the take you had from 7:29 - 7:53 was absolutely based lol.
I love the first two thirds of Skyward Sword, but I think the last third starts to drag a bit and prevents it from being one of my absolute favorites. Still one of the better Zeldas though, and the last one that I can say I'm mostly positive on.
@@ThePlinkster The finding the dragons part does kinda suck. Only plus is it can be done in any order (Though if you talk to the goron in Lanayru it can softlock the game on certain versions apparently) and getting the gauntlet
@@starbonnie552 it’s kinda funny that you mention that, because “doing things in any order” is one of the big reasons why I think the new games suck, so I wouldn’t even say that’s a plus side per se.
@@ThePlinkster Being fair that's how a few of the older games were set up you can do some dungeons in any order you want as long as you have some prerequisites done first. I know the 2nd half of Link To The Past and Ocarina of Time have that. In Skyward it's mainly so you don't need go Forest, Fire, Electric in the same order. Especially since if I remember correctly you have to do the imprisoned fight back to back if you do it in that order, since you fight him before being tasked with getting the song and than again immediately afterward as well if you decide to go for that 3rd of the song first
@@ThePlinkster Your welcome. Your video was very well done, articulating why Link between Worlds didn't work. I'm interested to see what you have to say about the faults of modern Zelda and heights of classic Zelda.
@@Jdudec367Wasn't it since Majora's? I remember going online and finding out it was disliked by many because of the time mechanic, same with Wind Waker, then feeling weird when years later all of a sudden both games are liked.
I just think of BotW as a Zelda NES remake/reimagening and it's much more enjoyable that way. (Which I honestly think it's supposed to be based on developer commentary)
@ThePlinkster I disagree, it has many things in common, both games trust you into the world with very little explanation, both games the world is already in chaos/consumed with darkness. Both games have very open ended exploration. When I say reimagining, I mean more so "what would Zelda look like if it didn't already exist but was made today?" I don't necessarily agree with the direction they went but I can understand the decisions and somewhat respect them. In that sense I can somewhat enjoy BotW (not so much Tears) in that it's supposed to be standalone and only loosely connected to the first game in inspiration only (although even in that it conflicts as it has small references to the other games).
Where did you get the premise that "Modern Zelda sucks"? It's been fantastic since 2017, with 50M in sales in 3D, and pretty much every game available on Switch. If you lose me at the title, how am I supposed to watch a 25 minute video about gobbledegook?
@@ThePlinksterbut reviewer, fans and even game devs outside of nintendo can't lie,right? Just because you don't like a game doesn't mean it's bad, botw is the most critically acclaimed game in the entire series after oot. Fans loved it, unlike old zelda botw didn't came with a major controversy. You are in minority bro because 33 million sales that botw sold only some people were upset not everyone. So, keep your stupid opinions to yourself and don't put modern zelda is bad in title for likes and views from some handful of minorities like you.
@@NormalLunk I plan on making video about all of the games. For now I’ll just say that in my opinion Twilight Princess is severely held back by its awful pacing, while Ocarina of Time doesn’t really struggle in any one area.
@ThePlinkster I can agree on twilight's pacing. My biggest problem with Ocarina is how it holds the player back from exploring. There isn't really much that you can find in that game, but any time you try Navi yells at you and tells you to get back on track. Twilight princess had a bigger emptier Hyrule field, but throughout the other areas of the game there was a lot more hidden, good overworld puzzles with the spinner and Dominion rod, and midna didn't try to punish the player for looking around. Though since you weren't the biggest fan of the switch games I can imagine the exploration aspect isn't that big a factor for you. I'm looking forward to that video, and I enjoyed hearing about your thoughts on link between worlds. Thank you!
I might owe TP another playthrough, because I think my first one was a bit tainted for a few reasons, but I honesty didn’t care much for it. I think my main reasoning for that was a combination of the art style not meshing a ton with me and the game’s progression and design choices being… weird to say the least. My big two are the lack of a sun’s song equivalent despite having the same sort of nighttime objectives as OoT and the strange lack of the horse call until borderline the endgame. To me, it almost feels like the game leaned into “realism” to the point of its own detriment, especially with the side content. Though even that doesn’t explain the baffling horse decisions and the like. To me, OoT feels a lot more timeless design-wise, though granted my main experience with it is the 3DS remaster.
@@sithlordmikeyp Thanks lol. That wasn’t my intention. It’s supposed to be more of a Willy Wonka type thing. I only own the hat because of how much I love Professor Layton.
Weird, I agree with a lot of the flaws of A Link Between worlds you pointed out, but I would play it again any day over Wind Waker or Twilight Princess. My main gripe with the game is it is too easy, if they had the same design sensibilities as they did when they made ALttP that game would be my favorite by far.
Yes, but it's been quite some time. I do need to eventually replay them but for the longest time I was hoping that they would get the same remake treatment as Link's Awakening.
I've actually been thinking about this but I actually like Hyrule Warriors aoc more than botw, the massive scale and limited tools work well as apposed to how it sucked in botw. I see you brought them up at 0400, I never played Cadence but I did try Necrodancer years ago it wasn't my thang, might have to try again.
Honestly Link Between worlds was the beginning of the end for the series for me. I thought it was a Rare Miss, not the direction for the series going forward... Tears was the last straw, I didn't even bother with Echoes of Wisdom. always wanted a Zelda game with Zelda as the lead, I hear it was Mid and forgettable sadly.
This is where I'm at. I managed to make it a few hours into BotW. I made it less than 2 into ToTK. They're just boring, and are so obviously chasing what's popular that it hurts.
i think your analysis falls appart because you are talking 2D zelda, which is known for not following the 3d formula, even though minish cap and the DS kinda does it (considering their dungeon design i wouldn't take them as examples of great zelda stuff) but aside from it, all 2D zelda treats dungeons as labyrinthes that consists of multiple rooms with gauntlets or puzzles, or both. The dungeon item is usefull in most of them but sometimes the dungeon boss doesn't even need it, or a lot of enigmas depend of prior items or sometimes even sidequest items (a link to the past's last dungeons use that a lot with the byrn cane). you can even say the same thing for the last OOT dungeons which are made to be completed in any order. The zelda formula is flexible and to be honest modern zelda doesn't stray that much from it when you consider all it adds, they just indeed have lesser focus on dungeons since in their respective game they are a very small part of it. Just like zelda 1. Most of the time spent in zelda 1 was roaming arround hyrule getting killed over and over or trying to understand the overworld's layout and find secrets that would help us progress. that's why i don't agree with you, zelda before BOTW had A LOT of ways to do its game structure and that's what always fascinated me with it, and i was part of the fans that were tired at the time of twilight princess that wanted 3d zelda to evolve in new directions since they always tried to stick to much to OOT's game structure without having the game/level design to make it work. I think Skyward sword suffered the most from that even though it has the best 3d zelda combat system, the best dungeon design and all but the game falls appart when you aren't engaging in one of these experiences. Modern zelda is more balanced on that end. you like it or not that's respectable but none of your arguments convinced me that it's bad, and it made me realize while making this comment how dumb this opposition of OLD vs MODERN is. Zelda has a lot of great ways to be Zelda and fans should stop being so conservative about it.
@@totidoki05 I certainly disagree with the idea that 2D Zelda doesn’t follow the same dungeon design as 3D Zelda. Sure maybe not the first two or three games, but once we get to Link’s Awakening the dungeon design is basically indistinguishable. That’s 6 different 2D games that follow the same general formula, while there are only 5 3D games that follow it. I don’t think LBWs dungeon design is bad just because it’s different. I just think it’s bad in general and isn’t a suitable replacement for the standard dungeon formula.
@@ThePlinkster well i don't know, Zelda 1, A link to the past, the oracle games it does makes a lot, in any way i think something that explains the ALBW dungeon structure is also linked to the wall merging mecanic, a brilliant one that leads to so many great puzzles but it also is given from the start and makes a lot of the dungeon solving revolve arround it, i think this allowed for more item independent dungeons and they simply figured it out mid dev. I'm okay with zelda either having item heavy focus or main mecanic focus. My favorite dungeon of all time is skykeep from skyward sword and this dungeon has no item, comes at the end and thus has so much varied mecanics involved, plus the dungeon gimmick is genius but yeah to me it's a stellar example of item independant dungeons that work great. The Dark temple from ALBW also has a strong gimmick that involves no dungeon specific item and relies mostly on main mecanics, and to be honest i find it great. The main flaw of ALBW dungeons comes from not iterating enough on proposed mecanics, not being item independent dungeons.
I really don't understand where you're coming from with link between worlds dude. You start by saying people praised the game for being different, then said it's actually not different because it reuses a formula, then go on a tyraid complaining about everything different about it. People liked link between worlds when it released because it was the first 2d zelda we had gotten in a long time, AND experimented with it's formual by changing how you get items, which opens up letting the player freely select the order to tackle the dungeons. You also didn't mention how every dungeon has a secret material for link to collect to upgrade link himself or his sword. You go on to say that a formula isn't inherently a bad thing and can be used for creativity it's own right, and I agree with you there. Because that's what LBW does. You also completely omitted that you can upgrade their items, which lets the player have better tools at their disposal and add incentives to explore the world and engage with the side content. I don't think LBW is the best zelda game, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy it as a long time fan, and I really don't think it's being well represented in this video when your entier argument boils down to "Different thing bad". It's fine if you don't care for LBW, to each their own. But the way you represented it in this video feels very disingenuous.
@@MegaGameXtreme I said people praised it for being similar to A Link to the Past, and then criticized the way it’s similar to A Link to the Past. I’m also saying that the way it “experimented with the formula” was a flop. It also wasn’t the first 2D Zelda in a long time, Spirit Tracks released just 4 years prior. I didn’t mention the upgrades to items or secret dungeon items because it wasn’t relevant. None of those items affect the dungeon design themselves, and upgrading individual items doesn’t affect much when the game is never designed around using those items outside of their respective dungeons.
At the same time, a formula is a tool. Not a crutch. I don't mind seeing a formula in a game, Formulas *are* good. They help define the entirety of an adventure. I *do* mind seeing that formula happen in the next game in that series. The new game is supposed to be a new adventure, give me a new adventure. For clarity, Zelda is a franchise but not a series. There are different series within the entire franchise. For instance, Ocarina of time was the start of a new series. Majora's mask was the next in that series but wasn't the same adventure over again just with a different paint for the buildings and a different names for the items. It changed the very nature of the adventure by using a different formula. The same thing applies to Link Between Worlds. And here's the crux of my rebuttal. Not liking the new adventure *IS NOT* an argument that they should just provide the same adventure over and over. Which is the *one* argument you made in this video. --- But it gets worse than that. You inconsistently included the older games even though they were different series and some of them bucked the formula of the other games in their series and were just fine. You just grouped them based on release dates before and arbitrary cutoff and not if the game stuck to the formula. And that *is* "boomer logic". You're never too young to be a boomer, apparently. Why was The Adventure's of Link on that list of the good ones? I liked it, sure, but it has *nothing* to do with the formula you presented. Still on your list of "the good ones" though? Same thing with Majora's Mask, except you brought up how it bucks the formula. Still on your list of good ones. Meanwhile, Windwaker is on your list of "the not as good ones" yet it follows the formula to a T. Seriously, including Adventure's of Link was *huge* tell. Whatever argument you *could've* made afterwards was *going to be* irrational. There's nothing to link that game in with the others on that list except for Link himself (nyuk). Whatever made the other games enjoyable, you won't be able to apply to that game; and whatever made that game enjoyable, you can't apply in reverse. You're just trying to put logic to feelings and you're doing a bad job. Which is fine, I guess, you're 23 (22?) after all. You're vibing on "older is better" but don't try to justify it this way. Because what you said in the video was clearly wrong. It doesn't fit the list. Honestly, *I'd* be hard pressed to come up with a rational reason why the six you listed should be included together in the context of what makes them collectively better than the others. Even the themes aren't uniform across them. Gameplay, formula, mood, intention... there's nothing that those game share in common between all six of them. At least, nothing that the *other* games in the franchise don't *also* have. But I don't want you to try to come up with a "legitimate" reason for your feelings, either. Just recognize that it *is* a vibe, based on a slogan: "Older is better". I'd *like* for you to escape that vibe, but I'll be fine either way as long as you're honest with yourself and your audience.
My argument isn't that they're better because they're similar, my argument is that the older ones just happen to be better. That isn't necessarily an "older is better" mindset because I never said that a new one _couldn't_ be better. Now that being said, I think that you're greatly underestimating just how many similarities there are between The Adventure of Link and the rest of the series. I'm planning on covering it when I inevitably make a video on Zelda 2, but I would argue that in some ways its more similar to the original Legend of Zelda than any other game in the series. It very much does follow the same formula, it just happens to add its own unique spin on that formula. Windwaker does the same thing, though it's not as readily apparent. I think that the issue here is that we both have different definitions of what the word "formula" means. Mine is rather vague, as I think that every game prior to A Link Between Worlds generally utilizes the same gameplay loop as Zelda 1, just in different ways. For what it's worth, I never said that Zelda 2 specifically was better than Windwaker. I said that the first 6 games happen to be in my top 10, meaning that I potentially prefer anywhere between 0 and 4 of the later games to any of those first 6. I'll admit right now that Windwaker is one of the games that I like more than Zelda 2.
Modern zelda doesn't have issues, totk is a masterpiece your just blinded by nostalgia like other zelda "fans" aka the fake ones. Stay away from my favorite franchise from now on, thanks
I just think you are wrong and if you want a game the way you like it learn to code and make one yourself. I feel like that effort would me more constructive than whining on RUclips.
@@ThePlinkster if people like the older games better why not just play those, or make a game you want to play? It's like you are just being professionally butthurt.
Modern Zelda are awesome man I'm kinda sad for you that you got stuck in the past and refused any kind of evolution and only want ALTTP and OOT all over and over again =/ I can get why the change aren't good in the eyes of some, but I prefer that over a series that rot and dwell in the same loop mechanic without ever changing !
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
So a few of y'all have commented that the background music in this video is really loud. I am sorry about that, and will work on that for future videos. In the meantime I have added full captions to this one for those of you who are unable to understand what I'm saying. I know it's a band-aid solution, but that's the most that I can do short of reuploading the video, which I don't want to do since this is my best performing video by far (thanks for that btw).
I was about to comment something, but, please understand the reason I was going to make the effort was because your production quality is otherwise very good considering your channel is so new! So don't be discouraged!
@ thank you!
Thanks for the content :)
100% agree with you that the whole "skyward sword flopped because people were tired of the formula" argument only became a thing retroactively after botw released
Skyward sword is a deeply flawed game but the formula is the one thing it didn't fuck up. Everyone who's played it always says the dungeons were the highlight of the game because of how well designed they were
I wouldn't even say that Skyward Sword "flopped" per se. It sold incredibly well given the circumstances of its release.
Yeah you are right about that. Skyward Sword has its issues but its dungeons are all amazing. Definitely some of the best in the series.
Personally my biggest problem with Skyward Sword is that with only three overworld areas the parts of the game between the dungeons become same-y. Especially in the third act where there are no dungeons to break up the overworld traversal. Even with the little things done to shake up the monotony slightly such as Faron Woods extending into a lake, the stealth section in the midst of a terrain-changing eruption, and the Sand Sea, it's just not enough.
Agree, SS is actually disliked because it broke some of Zelda's formula. The older games were not that annoying and handholding.
Yeah, I remember that in 2011 it was the motion controls in reality that most people were mad about with SS
Saying a link between worlds isn't one of the best zelda games is bonkers
@@Immunity1080 guess I’m a bit bonkers then.
@ThePlinkster quite
People born in 2001 shouldn't be allowed to be 23. It makes me a legitimately old boomer
@@nezuminora9528 hah, don’t worry, It’ll happen to me someday too.
Hahaha old.
As a 23 year old can we compromise and move the date further to 2005? I already feel old so it counts right?
As a kid, finding the items in dungeons was by far my favorite part.
LttP, OoT, MM, and I think the Oracle games? My saves looked weird, as I would get the item, then leave the dungeon to play around with the item, often going to the next dungeon and get the item from that one. Even as an adult, in LttP as soon as I get the PowerGlove, the first thing I do is leave the dungeon, so I can get the Flippers, and upgrade the Shield, Boomerang, and get whatever other goodies before I fight twinmold.
I remember reading about the item rental in A Link Between Worlds and thinking... "They took away literally the best part of Zelda?".
@@-DeScruff It’s odd because that was an intentional aspect of the series for a while. In MM Tatl will even nag at you for doing the dungeons out of order that way. Starting with Windwaker they just decided to not let you do that anymore for whatever reason.
I mean no there are still dungeon items really and was that the best part? It made figuring out how to defeat the bosses pretty obvious really.
I got this recommended as a huge ALBW glazer, and I do think you made many valid points. Doesn't affect my opinion of the game but I do lean towards more classic styled Zelda and I've just come to settle for the "meet in the middle" approach something like Echoes of Wisdom has. Mad respect for loving Zelda 2 by the way, can't bring myself to replay that game over most of the other first 6 you mentioned
7:24 as someone who played ALBW before ALttP… nah. The amount of charm the game (mostly because it’s newer and the devs now have decades of experience), I think that a fresh take on an old concept like this is actually wonderful and improved upon a lot of the ideas. But, you know, that’s just opinions talkng
I feel like you forget the fact that A Link Between Worlds is basically a sequel to A Link to the Past. The reason why the overworld is very similar to begin with.
Item rental gave a new purpose to all those rupees that were sitting in our pockets this whole time, plus it only really comes into play if you die alot which surely most don't in a Zelda game of all things. Plus, it allows us to go to any of the dungeons whenever we want unlike older games. Go watch Egoraptors video to see why he likes it.
Lorule is a nice change of pace plus seeing a what if scenario where Lorule's royal destroyed their triforce to stop the fighting only to realize that the triforce is what kept the land together is a grim aspect of the game and when Hilda tries to fix it by attempting to steal Hyrule's triforce. Desperation can make even a kind ruler like Hilda fall to hard times.
I think ALBW did a better job at open world then what BotW and TotK ever did.
@@rockowlgamer631 the problem is that the use for rupees is completely arbitrary. It’s basically the triforce quest in Windwaker all over again.
Doing things in any order is to the game’s detriment, not an advantage.
@ThePlinkster well that's not true. Being able to go anywhere was good and the rental system is how they let us do it. Not to mention it is the prelude to what the sheikah slate is for botw. The point of albtw is for the zelda team experiment with the freedom concept they gave us in their next big game
@@Immunity1080 the problem is that total freedom is an inherently bad thing to design games around. It actively creates problems for little to no benefit.
@ThePlinkster that is not absolute. Elden ring is one very fine example. Unless you're saying that about zelda specifically then you can disregard my statement. Despite my disagreement with you about the quality of albw, I'm not a fan of open world zelda and prefer everything before botw myself. But albw works as is and is a fantastic game
That bit about BOTW seeming to have something more interesting over the horizon that never actually comes is so true. I thought the 4 divine beasts were a warm up to the main plot and dungeons, and I was so excited to see what came next (going into the game almost completely blind) I thought they were passing far too quickly to be the main focus. About halfway through the game I realized they *were* the main focus and simply thought, "That's it?"
Great video, super informative for someone like me who hasn't played A Link Between Worlds yet (and doesn't have any means to). Items not being utilized outside of their respective dungeons is bad enough in any Zelda game, but buying the items is crazy, it really does remove a lot of the mystery and adventure that a dungeon is supposed to create.
And the biggest problem is, the design of Hyrule Castle in BotW shows that they could translate traditional dungeon layouts well into BotW's free-roam gameplay style. Then they managed to screw even that up in Tears of the Kingdom.
I frikin love A Link Between Worlds, the jump into walls mechanic, the (kind of but not really) remake of A Link to the Past. It’s just so fun, although my favorite 2D Zelda is Minish Cap 😅
That's great! I'm not trying to tell anyone that they're wrong for liking this game, I just wanted to share why I personally don't think its a very good entry.
Of course. The girl called Sano who was unable to finish Ocarina of Time because it was "too hard", is not the measuring stick used by Aonuma as representing the fans. Aonuma started well when he picked up from Miyamoto because he at first had to follow the old design thinking, but it shows, he is against deep moving stories and against challenge. Everything must be light fun.
@@cherubin7th Yup. Sano is basically the reason why Zelda can’t be interesting anymore. It’s a shame.
I must just suck because BotW and ToTK kick my ass.
Aonuma himself said he got bored with the Zelda formula. So clearly all he plans on doing is whatever the heck he wants with Zelda. Meaning there is no longer a formula. Cause for him a formula is "restrictive" which is actually just saying Aonuma isn't creative like Miyamoto was. We got a big empty world in BOTW where the only thing you could do was increase your health, your stamina and inventory space....we got making weird abominations with rockets as a penis in TOTK.....and now we get playable Zelda just cause.......I wouldn't be surprised if Aonuma makes a Zelda platformer or Zelda kart racer next. He just doesn't care about what made Zelda, ZELDA.
@@ItApproaches I think it's clear he does listen to feedback, TP was a direct result of WW's artstyle dislike, BotW was a direct result of SS's linearity, TotK was a direct result of BotW's lack of story. It's very likely he's more focused on this new direction of open ended exploration as he has expressed disinterest in returning to the traditional game structure. But he has been perceptive to feedback.
@@GoldenLeafsMovies He literally insulted the die hard Zelda fans when we made it clear we want tradition Zelda. He said something along the lines of those who want traditional Zelda don't know what they're talking about.
Modern Zelda's biggest crime is being boring. Give me a great degree of freedom? Cool. Give me a great degree of freedom where the content that exists is boring and the freedom isn't balanced properly? Not cool.
I got bored like 10-20 hours into Breath of the Wild because its core gameplay loop and content I found to be boring.
I want to play a Link Between Worlds someday.
@@Orange_Swirl couldn’t agree more!
Modern zelda isnt even true freedom. No choice actually matters, its just about whether you bother with the main quest and in which order. I dont expect zelda to be like bg3, but they seem more worried about abstrqct freedom than on an engaging story. Id take linear storytelling over this empty freedom anyday
Please do eventually. I think you would enjoy it.
@Tiepobadaae See you're right, but I wasn't expecting Story Branching in a Zelda game, anyway.
I WAS expecting a greater emphasis on resource management. The limited weapon durability and inventory management seemed to imply I would be forced to come up with interesting decisions in combat.
And then the rune powers ruined everything with their limited cooldown.
I have played OoT like 50 times in my life. I never get tired of it. BOTW I managed two playthroughs and my god, first one was not fun, years later I thought I would give it a second try, even less fun then the first time. TOTK was a slight improvement but I have no intention of ever playing it a second time, which shouldn't happen with a Zelda game.
Is it possible to thoroughly agree and thoroughly disagree at the same time? I absolutely demolished Worlds front to back. I bought it at 11am on it's launch day and had the game 100% by the following morning. I had hero mode 100% by the following day. I did a three heart/no fairy hero run finished that week. And I've gone through it several more times since.
I ATE that game like it was my Death Row dinner.
But watching this video, yeah you bring up some interesting things. Pitfalls of design? Not really something I want to discuss in a RUclips comment, but definitely things for me to think on more. I'll have to break the game out with a new lens.
I do think the talking point around Skyward Sword is also an interesting thing you note because it's true and false at once. It's all very anecdotal but, as someone who grew up through Twilight Princess, there were certainly mumblings from communities who were calling Zelda a series of retreads even all the way back in 2007. Maybe not big reviewers because they praise anything big budget Nintendo and have no salient insight. But there were pockets of old fans that thought it was more of the same and online at least, that game is very polarizing because it's generally so safe. The exceedingly, laughably low difficulty of the game in a series only further losing it's teeth after 1992 only compounded that. Skyward Sword years later having a host of additional aggravations on top of being extremely easy (again) and following the classic mold made that mold stand out a lot more for people. He's no authority on anything but, EgoRaptor infamously called this out long before Wild to a lot of mixed reception.
What I think is more accurate is that with Zelda being a juggernaut, people didn't really want to say their frustrations out loud until the big authority themselves, Nintendo, not only brought up the discussion of conventions but backed it up by breaking them in Wild. So it was technically a retrospective bit of commentary as you say, but that only became frequent when people felt emboldened to finally do so under the umbrella of Wild (and it's roaring success) shielding their criticisms of past entries. And I'm telling you, bad mouthing Zelda used to have dire consequences. When Jim Sterling gave Breath of the Wild a *generous* 7/10, he had his site DDOS'd and lost 48 hours of income. For a fucking *7/10*. Hell hath no fury like a Nintendo fan scorned.
All that said, I can't wait for more from you. This was a good critique. And me personally, I cannot stand modern Zelda. I'm just glad to see I wasn't some crazy contrarian for the last decade for not liking Wild/Tears. There's more of this sentiment coming out about these games that I had 6 years ago and it's cathartic.
@@daserfomalhaut9809 Thank you! It really means a lot!
I really like A Link Between Worlds because I really enjoyed the wall merging mechanic and thought the dungeons were a lot of fun despite being simpler than previous games. That said, I agree that the biggest issue by far is the item rental system. Obtaining all the key items at a shop is pretty underwhelming compared to finding them as part of your adventuring is pretty underwhelming and it is unfortunate that few of the puzzles can assume that you have multiple items.
Solid video even though I think A Link Between World’s is before when the series lost its magic. I can’t wait for you to rip into Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom, because those games absolutely deserve it.
@@rottencabbage2021 I agree, I still think LBW is an alright game for the most part, but it was the start of everything that made modern Zelda so awful.
Liked the video, but man the music is way too loud
I know, its been an issue I've been trying to work on. I'm sorry about that.
@@ThePlinksterIt is loud but I was able hear everything you said just fine.
@@jamesk1868 that’s good. I’m still working on getting proper subtitles right now for those who can’t hear me though.
I feel like the best way to do a "non-linear" Zelda game would be something like this:
Starting semi-tutorial area, forest region, whatever, with two options for dungeons to tackle. In each one, you're given some kind of magic energy construct version of an item. It acts exactly like the real thing, but disappears if you leave and only reappears when you come back. In order to full earn the item, you need to clear the dungeon, at which point it becomes real and you can use it anywhere as normal.
Both dungeon items are needed to fully exit the starting region. From there, every larger overworld region can be accessed at any time. There are three new dungeons you can access from the getgo. These are what we'll call the "easy tier dungeons."
Every easy tier dungeon contains an item that grants access to a more dangerous area, within its region, in which *two* "hard tier dungeons" are accessible. In this way, while the game won't be able to account for *every* item you might have up until that point, it can at least be certain you'll have both starter dungeon items as well as the easy tier item of that region, which along with its own hard tier item would give them plenty to work with when designing puzzles. Different regions and dungeons can also have enemies and puzzles that don't REQUIRE, but can be made easier using, items from other regions, along with shortcuts and hidden bonuses that require them. Changes the experience significantly between playthroughs.
Semi-adapt BOTW's concept of tackling the final dungeon at any time. You can't beat the final boss immediately, but it's a massive dungeon and there's always SOMETHING to do or find inside with every new item you get.
Echoes of Wisdom basically kinda does this. You have to do the 1st dungeon 1st to get rid of the fog on the overworld. After that pretty much the whole overworld is accessible, though you can only do the Gerudo or Zora dungeons next. After that it's Hyrule Castle, and then after that, it's 3 more dungeons in any order, then the final dungeon.
there are ALBW dungeons that have "dungeon items" kinda. Turtle rock gives you the hylian shield, allowing you to block the wizrobes. The ice palace has the energy scroll, which is required to reach one of the chests.
That’s true, but none of those items really affect the dungeon design all too much so I didn’t feel like they were worth mentioning.
We just have to hope that indie devs start making more traditional style Zelda games, since Nintendo seems uninterested in doing so themselves anymore. I can see that Echoes of Wisdom was their attempt to appease classic Zelda fans, and I did find the game fun, but it still falls short in terms of classic style Zeldas.
"We just have to hope that indie devs start making more traditional style Zelda games"
Games that don't sell? Just checking.
@@_sparrowhawk I'm not sure what you mean lol, there's a growing group of Zelda fans who miss the traditional style games, and would be more than happy to buy indie games made in that style, myself included. In fact, I have bought and played several already.
@@_sparrowhawk The problem isn't that the games don't sell, per se.
The problem is that those style of games require a lot of work, a lot of talent, and a lot of time. That means money. There's a lot more risk to developing a Twilight Princess than there is a Breath of the Wild.
For a Breath of the Wild, you can just have procedural generation do the start of the work for you by uploading in stock textures and assets, then having it do the first pass for the geography and biomes. Have a few graphics people do a quality control pass, then place in your handmade assets around the map as points of interest. If your map is pretty empty? That's a feature, not a bug, because it means there's plenty of room for DLC and expansions. Gotta make those pay pigs buy the game again and again after all!
By contrast, something like a Twilight Princess or Majora's Mask that's entirely hand made? That requires a LOT more people doing a lot more work. That means comparatively more money, as well as time. If Ocarina of Time were to be released today, up to current standards, it would cost *several* times more to make than BotW or TotK. This is to say nothing of the higher degree of talent needed in the writing team, or the level design team - especially now that they can just cover up weak plot elements with melodramatic voice acting.
It's would be a huge risk to try and make a current generation AAA old-style 3d Zelda, and it would cost a TON of money. Which means an indie dev is very unlikely to even try, even as demand goes up. Especially if it was a new IP.
The best shot at getting one of those type of games would be as someone's passion project. We may see it some time in the next ten years, but its up in the air whether it would succeed or not. It may end up being a good game that just flies under the radar due to bad marketing.
I get your point. It's funny for me how a Zelda game is resumed to a lot of people by it's formula around finding new items in themed dungeons, but I get it, everything looks mysterious, "more magical" and adds to the identity of the game's "chapters". Like, water temple in ocarina = longshot = annoying water level system = morpha etc
But there's so much beauty behind the level design of those new games that you so "hate". I love the oldschool Zelda temples + items, but, at the same time, for me at least, Link Between Worlds has an exquisite level design, so well thought, fun, organic, pleasant to play... For me, it's the best "2D" Zelda.
Games with this kind of approach and level design have their downfalls, but, overall, are very fun and well made.
Interesting take on a Link Between Worlds. Personally it's one of my favorite games in the franchise and one of my top recommendations for someone who's never played a Zelda game before because it's not too difficult and shows the player a general idea of how the games work. I do understand what you've said about the dungeon design and do find it a little disappointing that they have to be designed the way they are.
As for the world being the same, that's another understandable grievance to have with the game and I'm pretty sure it was done for nostalgia-pandering reasons. It's important to understand the context of a Link Between World's release. This was around the time when the 3DS and Wii U weren't selling particularly well and Nintendo was trying to draw in their core audience with some nostalgic titles like this and Yoshi's New Island, and even new entries to long-awaited IPs like Pikmin and Chibi-Robo.
I although I really love "A Link Between Worlds" I completely agree in your assessment. At the time I was happy to see a return to form for handheld Zelda game after the DS era games. For a while it did seem like Nintendo would be up for making more of these types of Zelda games, but they never really did.
@@tutekki It’s funny you say that, because I love the DS Zeldas, and vastly prefer them to A Link Between Worlds.
@@ThePlinkster That's cool. It's just one of those things. Those games were very experimental with the controls which alienated a lot of people at the time. I wasn't keen on scratching up my DS screen by just walking around so it was a pass.
@@tutekki yeah, I’m kinda hit or miss on the controls. They’re either wholly unnecessary or incredible. Either way they’re not the reason I love the games so much.
I saw the title and was instantly interested in what people in the comments cause holy crap is that a hot take.
Hey, if SkittyBitty can become an overnight success by naming a video “I HATE TEARS OF THE KINGDOM” I don’t see why I couldn’t too!
@@ThePlinkster People resonate with Skitty because we know TotK was not that great. Especially if you played BotW first. ALBW however is at least more interesting than TotK ever was, the story was nice and a fun twist of a what if scenario if the kingdom destroyed their triforce instead of hiding it.
I love hearing unpopular Zelda opinions, so I'd be very interested in videos about each game !
@LauraVlrs Will do!
Oh no, no, no, nothing ever destroyed a gameplay loop in Zelda the way weapon durability did in the open world Switch games. For TotK, the loop broke so hard because of weapon durability that the game's rating among fans litterally dropped from an 11/10 in the first months to a 5/10 at best since then. The game now gets an incredible amount of hate from players who stopped having fun with it the moment the gameplay loop stopped rewarding their engagement in combat and exploration with stuff that was worth the trouble of seeing their hard earned weapons break after a couple of swings.
ALBW's item shop is the result of a compromise between open exploration and dungeon puzzles. Was it good? Not necessarily, but once bought, you can at least upgrade them if you engage in further overworld exploration. Plus, the dungeons hold some goodies like master ore to upgrade the master sword or the hylian shield that can block fire and magic. Compare that to the whole bunch of nothing sprinkled on more nothing you find in TotK's dungeons.
@@omicron3012 While I agree for the most part, I don’t think weapon durability by itself is what made the fanbase start to hate TotK.
I also don’t think that weapon durability is conceptually as bad as item rental. Regardless of how it was implemented in BotW/TotK, weapon durability _can_ work as a mechanic. Item rental can’t.
I know it's not the topic but for me Twilight Princess is the king of Zelda games, check everthing and was the culmination of all the Zelda games released before and after it (even SS), OoT was just the rough draft (even though it was OoT that made me fall in love with Zelda )
For most of your points on ALBW I agree, but for some reason it’s literally my favorite video game ever after ocarina of time and Majora’s Mask. I love understanding video game design a lot, but I don’t understand why I love ALBW so much. Anyways as someone who has played and loved almost every game of the series, I’m interested to hear such unique takes especially ones that aren’t afraid to point out the problems with the games. I believe that the people who love something should understand its flaws best.
I totally get it. It's not unreasonable to like things in spite of or even because of their flaws. If you love this game than more power to you!
@@ThePlinkster thank you. I actually might like Phantom Hourglass more than ALBW so I’m replaying it, but they’re hard to compare. Also my reason for liking ALBW can’t be nostalgia; I first played it last year.
@@HyrulianTimelineTraveler Ha, there’s no need to justify your tastes! Also, Phantom Hourglass is a top tier Zelda, so I can fully agree with you there.
@@ThePlinksterI like being detailed.
@@HyrulianTimelineTraveler fair enough.
I did all 136 shrines in BoTW, did all the DLC dungeons, completed the freakin survival dungeon to get endless Master Sword (It was... rather satisfying.), and i collected ALL 900 Korok Seeds. (The final one i got in LonLon Ranch, i still remember... heck, final 10 Korok Seeds were a freaking comparing game with the interactive map). I even planned to upgrade all equipment, which meant to grind dragons... but got bored midway.
All that Breath of The Wild wastness became a chore just 10 hours into the game. I'd rather play Skyrim, at least it has dungeons and underground areas... rather than Test Rooms from Portal in Breath of the Wild.
I think this might be overthinking it a little.
The problem with BotW and TotK is that they're chasing trends at the expense of identity.
BotW is a direct result of the Witcher 3. It's the Zelda aesthetic and identity applied in a rather lackluster way to something that vaguely approaches the Witcher 3 design ethos, with some other open world mechanics thrown in for good measure. It's borrowing from a big fat number of other franchises so hard that it doesn't feel anything like what we grew up with.
Unfortunately, that feel doesn't cater to us, and as part of the Zelda fanbase, we've effectively been replaced. There will never be another *good* old style Zelda game. At least until some other franchise steps in to take up the mantle for the game type.
@@ASNS117Zero I think that might have something to do with it too, but I think a lot of what makes those games bad started in LBW too.
I was born in 82 and my favorite has always been a link to the past
Could you please upload version with quieter bg music? The script is super interesting but it's hard to focus
@@panfilolivia I don’t think I can do that for this video, but I’ll try to add captions if that helps. I’m sorry about that.
Ocarina and Majora are tied for my favorite, and both are in the more linear style to some extent. I love BotW, but that’s because I usually don’t like open world games and I’m glad it just has stuff to do between areas. That’s not a high bar for me. My main experience with the genre was GTA style games where the most fun thing to do is harass NPCs, something that only connects to the main gameplay when it becomes an obstacle, when you didn’t mean to trigger the punishment it comes with. To me, clearing the low bar I’d been accustomed to was something wonderful and worth playing for.
I recently just got link between worlds after wanting it for so long, because LTTP is my fav Zelda game. Hopefully i can enjoy it at least for the kid in me
Don't let my opinions be the thing that prevents you from enjoying it. Like I said at the beginning I don't hate the game, I just think that it kinda misses the point of what made the older games so great.
Stinky Wii U....the disrespect! I got BOTW on Wii U and said F U to the Switch cause there was no logical reason to buy a whole new system for a game when I have the system the game was already made for. Not like the Switch version was better outside of minor improved loading times. Till this day I will defend that the Wii U is a vastly superior console to the Switch. Though in the end, BOTW and TOTK were crap Zelda games and Aonuma has destroyed the Zelda franchise. I was a die hard Zelda fan since the NES days.
@@ItApproaches Yeah, looking back it was really silly for me to wait for a Switch to play BotW, but to be fair I was also really looking forward to Mario Odyssey so I wanted a Switch anyway.
no
@@ThePlinkster I see. I personally hated Mario Odyssey. It looked great, but man, worst 3D Mario game in my view. Sure we had no idea if it would be good or bad before release, but after it was out, man...what a drag of an experience. I had to force myself to play the game to it's conclusion.
@@ItApproaches I actually really loved Mario Odyssey, it’s one of my favorite Mario games in general. It’s kinda ironic how I liked it so much more than BotW despite both games making somewhat similar changes to their respective series.
@@ThePlinkster My issues with Odyssey was the realism doesn't work, aka New Donk City. The hat gimmick with controlling things didn't do anything for me, the random realistic looking T-Rex made no damn sense in a Mario game. Replacing stars with moons? Why all of a sudden change that? The utter lack of bosses. You just fought the rabbit guys again and again then Bowser. Though my biggest issue was the gameplay loop was horrid. It was just you're in a level oh look a moon! Oh look another, oh another, and ooh look another. It was just collect all the ones you can see in an environment, then go to the next level and repeat. And the game was a prime example of the saying to much of a good thing. There was no reason for so many moons for 100% completion....you don't even get anything for them. Buying costumes? POINTLESS filler content. If each costume actually effected gameplay then that would be great! But going through all the effort just to change Mario's shirt or shorts that does nothing? Big old headache, nothing more. Galaxy 1 will always be peak 3D Mario. Then for me it goes 3D World/Bowser Fury. I really hope the next 3D Mario is more like Bowsers Fury style, that was great!
One correction, it isn't true that Skyward Sword wasn't hated until post-BotW era Zelda. There was a larger movement to open-form Zelda that actually more than likely inspired the less linear formulas both ALbW and BotW adopted
The movement was started by Ocarina of Time haters back in 2014 around the same time Egoraptor's infamous Sequelitis came out. If you go back to watching youtube around that period, you'll find a lot of general discontent with Nintendo constantly trying to pander to Ocarina fans. A massive outcry of fans started loathing a "Formulaic" and "Linear" formula, and started begging for a more open-form formula. Skyward Sword was an incredibly linear experience, and as such received a lot of backlash from fans around the 2012-2014 period.
Personally, I like the linear formula more, but it's undeniable that this "open-form" movement started LONG before BotW even came out
@@averysketchygamer3241 I never said that it wasn’t hated, just that the reason it was hated had nothing to do with the “formula.”
Also, nothing about the formula inherently requires it to be linear. The series has always had varying degrees of openness, even prior to LBW.
So... apparently Egoraptor ruined Zelda. I see.
I also more fan of Pre-BotW formula.
@@ThePlinkster I am aware of this. Wind Waker is the greatest example of this fact, though Egoraptor argued that post-ALTTP, the Zelda formula was complacent in being linear. This caused an uprising of Zelda fans arguing against the Linear formula, hence why they liked ALBW, as it returned to ALTTP's more non-Linear formula
Of course I think this is silly, but this is the argument that was made back in 2012-2014. For those fans, BotW and ALBW were a breath of fresh air, as they wanted a formula that didn't restrict their progression. And they got a game where they could fight the final boss before even reaching the first village.
As someone who thinks that BotW's "Fight the Final Boss immediately after the tutorial" is somewhat cheap and doesn't really contribute to the game at all, it didn't really give me much. But for other people, this was the case. I was just explaining people's thoughts during the time, as I've been a fan since about 2006.
@@ThePlinkster yes, people often use the terms classic Zelda and linear Zelda interchangeably, but A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time the foundational classic Zelda titles both allow you to do many things in different orders.
And also Egoraptor is wrong on a few things like having to wait out enemies to attack when dude just throw deku nuts at them if they're weak to them so I really hate when his stans take what he says as gospel smh
I can't hear what you are saying. The BGM is too loud ... 😣
@@dashannsche8460 a lot of people have had the same complaint. I’m sorry about that. I’ve added captions to the video, but it’s something I’m going to have to work on in future videos.
@ThePlinkster Didn't want to be rude. For the future you know what to do. It's only a shame, because it's diminishing your good content. 🙂
Take care!
@@dashannsche8460 no I’m glad people are pointing it out, thank you!
I didn't notice myself. It might be a bit better if you listen without headphones, I wonder if the headphones mix things a bit differently.
3:08 Ehhhhh I'd say OOT has aged quite a bit and can feel like a very sterile experience with clunky mechanics. Wind Waker will always be a more beautiful, emotional game and frankly better. As for 2d zelda games, I'd say Minish Cap is frankly the best, it is so sleek and perfected, has a great gimmick that never runs thin and never feels unfair or frustrating like the first 3.
@@LaurianeG. beautiful? Sure. Emotional? Debatable. I love Windwaker as much as the next guy but I think it struggles in quite a few areas that Ocarina of Time doesn’t.
@@ThePlinkster OOT's world just doesn't feel appealing, it's characters unmemorable, it's story dull compared to wind waker's more earnest story about regret, future, etc, with charming characters you get attached to. It just also... FEELS better to play. Fights, items, etc, it all just flows better. Moving link around feels good and fun.
Like OOT is important for video game history but in hindsight it feels very... stock. Generic. It doesn't really have much personality.
@@LaurianeG. that’s a hard disagree from me. Ocarina of Time has the best story in the entire series in my opinion. It’s a story with a ton of subtext, especially in its allusions to Peter Pan. Don’t get me wrong, WW’s story is great too, but it just doesn’t make you read between the lines like OoT does.
Also, I never particularly cared for how Windwaker controlled. I much prefer the slightly stiffer movement of the N64 games.
my comment on you feeling overly negative on the games past 2000s aside and a few nitpick aside, this really does align with my observations every time I play the game. I like it, I want to love it, but it does show when pretty much all dungeons except lorule castle don't even feel as fun and challenging as the first dungeon from friggin skyward sword, a game often criticized for being too easy lol. It's like it's good cool dungeon concepts but like you said they are too short, too easy and it leaves you disappointed. Like wait that's it?
@@LaurianeG. thank you! I wouldn’t say I’m overly negative on the post 2000 Zeldas, I just tend to prefer the older ones overall. I still love every Zelda up until BotW on some level.
he just called the tornado rod lame in general???? It's easily the best weapon in the game against any enemy that can be stunned, at least with the nice version.
@@Ep1cBramb10 yeah but stunning enemies really isn’t that helpful in LBW. At least the other items tend to have decent puzzle solving implications.
@@ThePlinkster it is incredibly useful, can be used at any time, and both stuns and damages nearly the entire screen
It being effective doesn't mean as an ITEM it can't be lame. I could make a pebble that one shots a boss....would be a lame item despite being useful.
Heya! I like your (based) hot takes, combined with some pretty solid game analysis. I do feel the Zelda series has... been on a weird track, lately, and it's nice to hear fresh perspectives on that whole situation. Looking forward to what's next!
Zelda games changed with Windwaker cause Miyamoto stepped down as the lead, and Aonuma took over. Though Windwaker was Aonuma's best work, then Skyward Sword. Twilight Princess was good...but oddly, forgettable to me.
i have played NEARLY every LoZ game, i refused to play Windwaker, mostly because of the droned out sailing and empty void of water between islands. I remember Nintendo hyping up A link Between Worlds as a direct sequel of A Link To The Past, and was extremely disappointed when it came to the whole gameplay itself. I felt that the dungeon generation was lackluster and didn't do LoZ justice. The Item Rental was a massive pain and the constant "You have found (insert color rupee) which is worth (insert 1, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 500)" The fact that I was able to beat it in a single day in my late teens/early 20s left me a bit vacant for my need to fill that void. Twilight Princess was GOOD, but it could have been GREAT. BoTW was.....lacking in lots of aspects. After getting EVERYTHING and completing every sidequest, getting every collectible, beating the Hero's Ballad and getting the Master Cycle Zero was.....disappointing. I already had everything I needed, and that ATV Bike was a massive turnoff, especially when the map was just so empty. I mainly spent the majority watching Link's arse run around and occasionally fight a small group of enemies. Skyward Sword disappointed me with the Stamina feature that NOBODY wanted. But the biggest disappointment of Link Between Worlds was the Wall Merging; It was overused, even as a core mechanic of the whole game. At least Spirit Tracks and Phantom Hourglass had fun aspects during travel. The Echoes of Wisdom at least made an attempt at getting back to the original formula, but fell short with how broken the Echo Staff is. Like, putting a bed down anywhere to cross gaps made it easy to skip puzzles. It took me a total of 10 hours to 100% it going in blind. Replay value of LoZ games AFTER Majora's Mask went down, fast. I barely want to play Twilight Princess again, but remembering the headache of the failure horseback fighting keeps me from doing it and that was a MASSIVE step-up for Epona, though I did like killing everything with wolf Link, and barely played as regular outside of dungeons or finding hear pieces.
Didn't expect someone so young to have those Zelda games as a part of their top games in the series list. I grew up playing the original Zelda and Zelda 2 on the NES, and still play them from time to time, but A Link to the Past was what I played the most in the teen years, played that game way too many times, which is why I did originally love A Link Between Worlds, as it felt like A Link to the Past enough, but when I go back and replay it, I no longer find it as enjoyable as the first time. One thing you mentioned in your video that nobody ever seems to talk about, especially in any Zelda lore videos is the fact that Lorule looks too much like the Dark World(aka the Golden Land corrupted) from A Link to the Past, which makes no narrative sense, and it still leaves a really sour taste in my mouth, I think it may have just been Nintendo being lazy or something, but it is so off-putting after playing LttP so much growing up, and understanding the lore of the Dark World, then seeing what appears to be the Dark World in A Link Between Worlds, but instead it's now called "Lorule"??? Like what? Nintendo really has some lore to explain here. Great video, loved the perspective, and yeah, the item rental system really does take away from the charm of traditional Zelda. Growing up with Zelda, I always looked forward to what the next dungeon item was, I really enjoyed the surprise in each game, now that new item charm Zelda once had is unfortunately gone, which makes the next Zelda game less exciting to look forward to. To me, Zelda was always about exploration, cool items to use and play with, and the dungeons which combined both of those last two elements... *sigh*
@@KevinVeroneau Thanks for the kind words! Yeah, I played a lot the different Zeldas all at once, and I just happened to find myself wanting to replay the older ones more frequently than the newer ones.
I do agree on like everything in this video, although I will defend that the wall merging mechanic was very well used in ALBW. It's the best part of the game by far and was fully utilized in every way possible in the game imo.
Triforce Heroes is great you should do a video on it!
Personally, I’m waiting for a commentary on Link’s Crossbow Training
@mikenorris2165 links crossbow is also pretty good for what it is
@@supahstarrallyah8360 Maybe someday, but it doesn’t really fit the rest of the series. I don’t have as much to say about it as I do the singleplayer games.
@@ThePlinksterIt's honestly good though. It's not connected story wise to the rest, but it certainly was a testing grounds for modern Zelda stuff. Costumes were a test for BotW armor. A costume that let's you talk to cats sounds like a very recent game inclusion but started there as well.
Link Between Worlds best Zelda game ever, never been topped ever since
@@ManucaBranco I’ll give you that it’s hasn’t been topped since, but that’s not saying much.
real
Excellent work. You’ve earned a subscription.
@@rtroyer33 thank you!
i dont like modern zelda but i do think albw is closer to classic than it is to modern.
albw feels like the first game that was meant to be built upon and expanded, an old formula reimagined that needed to be refined. but instead of doing that, they threw it all away and made botw.
also one thing u didnt menation is that there are still big treasures in albw dungeons to find that add to your inventory, albeit in a different way. but i do have to admit that having no items in dungeons at all was too much. they shouldve found a better middle ground than they did.
Hey, _A Link Between Worlds_ is a good game that channels the same spirit as _A Link to the Past!_ I also like _Tri Force Heroes_ , even if it's a downgrade from _ALBW_ AND _Four Swords_ .
Sucks is a strong word. I have loved Zelda since SNES and have nothing but love for the formula, but the new direction was welcoming.
Some of it isn't great, but if they could truly incorporate old/new effectively; it would be remarkable.
Even with everyone hating on TOTK, I have always wanted to play a Zelda game in a world after the final boss is beaten and this game gave me that experience. It's hard to completely shift a game like this, but it certainly doesn't suck and will only get better.
@@journeyproud If it were only A Link Between Worlds by itself I probably wouldn’t use the word “sucks.” Even if it were both LBW and BotW I probably wouldn’t either. I do think that the general direction that series is going in deserves to be described with that word though. That’s great if you feel otherwise though.
I actually really like ALBW and while I disagree that its not a good game I do respect your opinion and you do make some points that I do agree with like with the item rental stuff. I am curious as to how you feel about Skyward Sword as its one of my favorite Zelda games and I would argue that its the most over hated Zelda game ever.
Also the take you had from 7:29 - 7:53 was absolutely based lol.
I love the first two thirds of Skyward Sword, but I think the last third starts to drag a bit and prevents it from being one of my absolute favorites. Still one of the better Zeldas though, and the last one that I can say I'm mostly positive on.
@@ThePlinkster Yeah thats fair enough. The last third of the Skyward Sword (until the very end at least) definitely felt like it was padded a bit.
@@ThePlinkster The finding the dragons part does kinda suck. Only plus is it can be done in any order (Though if you talk to the goron in Lanayru it can softlock the game on certain versions apparently) and getting the gauntlet
@@starbonnie552 it’s kinda funny that you mention that, because “doing things in any order” is one of the big reasons why I think the new games suck, so I wouldn’t even say that’s a plus side per se.
@@ThePlinkster Being fair that's how a few of the older games were set up you can do some dungeons in any order you want as long as you have some prerequisites done first. I know the 2nd half of Link To The Past and Ocarina of Time have that.
In Skyward it's mainly so you don't need go Forest, Fire, Electric in the same order. Especially since if I remember correctly you have to do the imprisoned fight back to back if you do it in that order, since you fight him before being tasked with getting the song and than again immediately afterward as well if you decide to go for that 3rd of the song first
Critique: Music was too loud, it drowned out your voice. (especially 11:00 - 13:30)
@@loremaster8158 haha yes, that has been made very clear. Thank you though!
@@ThePlinkster Your welcome. Your video was very well done, articulating why Link between Worlds didn't work. I'm interested to see what you have to say about the faults of modern Zelda and heights of classic Zelda.
The sword does not even work in alttp. That game is so overrated, it hurts
@@deadstrider What do you mean it doesn’t work?
I better not hear any Zelda Cycle shit in this comment section. We are sitting our ass down and listening.
@@vinegar3617 surprisingly nobody has mentioned this supposed cycle so far
The cycle still likely exists, since at least TP.
@@Jdudec367Wasn't it since Majora's? I remember going online and finding out it was disliked by many because of the time mechanic, same with Wind Waker, then feeling weird when years later all of a sudden both games are liked.
@@GoldenLeafsMovies Yep was thinking that too actually.
I just think of BotW as a Zelda NES remake/reimagening and it's much more enjoyable that way. (Which I honestly think it's supposed to be based on developer commentary)
@@GoldenLeafsMovies A remake/reimagining that has literally nothing in common with the game that it’s based on?
@ThePlinkster I disagree, it has many things in common, both games trust you into the world with very little explanation, both games the world is already in chaos/consumed with darkness. Both games have very open ended exploration.
When I say reimagining, I mean more so "what would Zelda look like if it didn't already exist but was made today?" I don't necessarily agree with the direction they went but I can understand the decisions and somewhat respect them. In that sense I can somewhat enjoy BotW (not so much Tears) in that it's supposed to be standalone and only loosely connected to the first game in inspiration only (although even in that it conflicts as it has small references to the other games).
I agree with this, nice video
rip funny number, 70th sub
@@RavenT7T thanks!
Where did you get the premise that "Modern Zelda sucks"? It's been fantastic since 2017, with 50M in sales in 3D, and pretty much every game available on Switch. If you lose me at the title, how am I supposed to watch a 25 minute video about gobbledegook?
@@_sparrowhawk high sales don’t mean that a game is good lol
@@ThePlinksterbut reviewer, fans and even game devs outside of nintendo can't lie,right?
Just because you don't like a game doesn't mean it's bad, botw is the most critically acclaimed game in the entire series after oot.
Fans loved it, unlike old zelda botw didn't came with a major controversy.
You are in minority bro because 33 million sales that botw sold only some people were upset not everyone.
So, keep your stupid opinions to yourself and don't put modern zelda is bad in title for likes and views from some handful of minorities like you.
That's crazy that you prefer Ocarina of Time over Twilight princess, without nostalgia goggles blinding you. I would love to see a video detailing why
@@NormalLunk I plan on making video about all of the games. For now I’ll just say that in my opinion Twilight Princess is severely held back by its awful pacing, while Ocarina of Time doesn’t really struggle in any one area.
@ThePlinkster I can agree on twilight's pacing. My biggest problem with Ocarina is how it holds the player back from exploring. There isn't really much that you can find in that game, but any time you try Navi yells at you and tells you to get back on track. Twilight princess had a bigger emptier Hyrule field, but throughout the other areas of the game there was a lot more hidden, good overworld puzzles with the spinner and Dominion rod, and midna didn't try to punish the player for looking around. Though since you weren't the biggest fan of the switch games I can imagine the exploration aspect isn't that big a factor for you. I'm looking forward to that video, and I enjoyed hearing about your thoughts on link between worlds. Thank you!
I might owe TP another playthrough, because I think my first one was a bit tainted for a few reasons, but I honesty didn’t care much for it. I think my main reasoning for that was a combination of the art style not meshing a ton with me and the game’s progression and design choices being… weird to say the least. My big two are the lack of a sun’s song equivalent despite having the same sort of nighttime objectives as OoT and the strange lack of the horse call until borderline the endgame. To me, it almost feels like the game leaned into “realism” to the point of its own detriment, especially with the side content. Though even that doesn’t explain the baffling horse decisions and the like. To me, OoT feels a lot more timeless design-wise, though granted my main experience with it is the 3DS remaster.
Good analysis. Your top hat, bowtie, and cane combo kinda remind me of Elton John.
@@sithlordmikeyp Thanks lol. That wasn’t my intention. It’s supposed to be more of a Willy Wonka type thing. I only own the hat because of how much I love Professor Layton.
W opinion right here at 2:40
Even if personaly i would let the oracle games replaced zelda 2 and majora mask in your list
Based points. Keep up with it
@@debugLog00 thank you!
Weird, I agree with a lot of the flaws of A Link Between worlds you pointed out, but I would play it again any day over Wind Waker or Twilight Princess. My main gripe with the game is it is too easy, if they had the same design sensibilities as they did when they made ALttP that game would be my favorite by far.
You said you were going to cover BOTW later in the video, yet didn't? lol...
@@ItApproaches no, I meant I was going to make a BotW video later
@@ThePlinkster Oh I see.
Have you played the oracle games
Yes, but it's been quite some time. I do need to eventually replay them but for the longest time I was hoping that they would get the same remake treatment as Link's Awakening.
@@ThePlinkster Still holding out hope for that myself. They deserve it.
breath of the wild and tear of the kingdom, are very good games, but they are not zelda games in my book.
Well... I liked it
@@ReavinBlue More power to you!
I've actually been thinking about this but I actually like Hyrule Warriors aoc more than botw, the massive scale and limited tools work well as apposed to how it sucked in botw. I see you brought them up at 0400, I never played Cadence but I did try Necrodancer years ago it wasn't my thang, might have to try again.
@@hrvstmn31 I’m just not into Warriors games in general, that’s mainly why I singled out CoH as a game I actually like.
@@ThePlinkster fair the only reason I played these is Zelda. Just wish those cowards would give us a fishing game already.
Honestly Link Between worlds was the beginning of the end for the series for me. I thought it was a Rare Miss, not the direction for the series going forward... Tears was the last straw, I didn't even bother with Echoes of Wisdom. always wanted a Zelda game with Zelda as the lead, I hear it was Mid and forgettable sadly.
@@ElickFlash yeah, it’s unfortunate. Hopefully if we make a big enough stink Nintendo will listen.
This is where I'm at.
I managed to make it a few hours into BotW. I made it less than 2 into ToTK. They're just boring, and are so obviously chasing what's popular that it hurts.
i think your analysis falls appart because you are talking 2D zelda, which is known for not following the 3d formula, even though minish cap and the DS kinda does it (considering their dungeon design i wouldn't take them as examples of great zelda stuff) but aside from it, all 2D zelda treats dungeons as labyrinthes that consists of multiple rooms with gauntlets or puzzles, or both. The dungeon item is usefull in most of them but sometimes the dungeon boss doesn't even need it, or a lot of enigmas depend of prior items or sometimes even sidequest items (a link to the past's last dungeons use that a lot with the byrn cane). you can even say the same thing for the last OOT dungeons which are made to be completed in any order. The zelda formula is flexible and to be honest modern zelda doesn't stray that much from it when you consider all it adds, they just indeed have lesser focus on dungeons since in their respective game they are a very small part of it. Just like zelda 1. Most of the time spent in zelda 1 was roaming arround hyrule getting killed over and over or trying to understand the overworld's layout and find secrets that would help us progress. that's why i don't agree with you, zelda before BOTW had A LOT of ways to do its game structure and that's what always fascinated me with it, and i was part of the fans that were tired at the time of twilight princess that wanted 3d zelda to evolve in new directions since they always tried to stick to much to OOT's game structure without having the game/level design to make it work. I think Skyward sword suffered the most from that even though it has the best 3d zelda combat system, the best dungeon design and all but the game falls appart when you aren't engaging in one of these experiences. Modern zelda is more balanced on that end. you like it or not that's respectable but none of your arguments convinced me that it's bad, and it made me realize while making this comment how dumb this opposition of OLD vs MODERN is. Zelda has a lot of great ways to be Zelda and fans should stop being so conservative about it.
@@totidoki05 I certainly disagree with the idea that 2D Zelda doesn’t follow the same dungeon design as 3D Zelda. Sure maybe not the first two or three games, but once we get to Link’s Awakening the dungeon design is basically indistinguishable. That’s 6 different 2D games that follow the same general formula, while there are only 5 3D games that follow it.
I don’t think LBWs dungeon design is bad just because it’s different. I just think it’s bad in general and isn’t a suitable replacement for the standard dungeon formula.
@@ThePlinkster well i don't know, Zelda 1, A link to the past, the oracle games it does makes a lot, in any way i think something that explains the ALBW dungeon structure is also linked to the wall merging mecanic, a brilliant one that leads to so many great puzzles but it also is given from the start and makes a lot of the dungeon solving revolve arround it, i think this allowed for more item independent dungeons and they simply figured it out mid dev. I'm okay with zelda either having item heavy focus or main mecanic focus. My favorite dungeon of all time is skykeep from skyward sword and this dungeon has no item, comes at the end and thus has so much varied mecanics involved, plus the dungeon gimmick is genius but yeah to me it's a stellar example of item independant dungeons that work great. The Dark temple from ALBW also has a strong gimmick that involves no dungeon specific item and relies mostly on main mecanics, and to be honest i find it great. The main flaw of ALBW dungeons comes from not iterating enough on proposed mecanics, not being item independent dungeons.
Triforce Heroes is the best 2D Zelda 😤😤
Based opinion
Hard disagree but I’m glad other people enjoyed it when I didn’t
I disagree but Im happy you enjoyed it.
I really don't understand where you're coming from with link between worlds dude.
You start by saying people praised the game for being different, then said it's actually not different because it reuses a formula, then go on a tyraid complaining about everything different about it. People liked link between worlds when it released because it was the first 2d zelda we had gotten in a long time, AND experimented with it's formual by changing how you get items, which opens up letting the player freely select the order to tackle the dungeons. You also didn't mention how every dungeon has a secret material for link to collect to upgrade link himself or his sword.
You go on to say that a formula isn't inherently a bad thing and can be used for creativity it's own right, and I agree with you there. Because that's what LBW does. You also completely omitted that you can upgrade their items, which lets the player have better tools at their disposal and add incentives to explore the world and engage with the side content.
I don't think LBW is the best zelda game, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy it as a long time fan, and I really don't think it's being well represented in this video when your entier argument boils down to "Different thing bad".
It's fine if you don't care for LBW, to each their own. But the way you represented it in this video feels very disingenuous.
@@MegaGameXtreme I said people praised it for being similar to A Link to the Past, and then criticized the way it’s similar to A Link to the Past. I’m also saying that the way it “experimented with the formula” was a flop. It also wasn’t the first 2D Zelda in a long time, Spirit Tracks released just 4 years prior.
I didn’t mention the upgrades to items or secret dungeon items because it wasn’t relevant. None of those items affect the dungeon design themselves, and upgrading individual items doesn’t affect much when the game is never designed around using those items outside of their respective dungeons.
At the same time, a formula is a tool. Not a crutch. I don't mind seeing a formula in a game, Formulas *are* good. They help define the entirety of an adventure. I *do* mind seeing that formula happen in the next game in that series. The new game is supposed to be a new adventure, give me a new adventure. For clarity, Zelda is a franchise but not a series. There are different series within the entire franchise. For instance, Ocarina of time was the start of a new series. Majora's mask was the next in that series but wasn't the same adventure over again just with a different paint for the buildings and a different names for the items. It changed the very nature of the adventure by using a different formula. The same thing applies to Link Between Worlds.
And here's the crux of my rebuttal. Not liking the new adventure *IS NOT* an argument that they should just provide the same adventure over and over. Which is the *one* argument you made in this video.
---
But it gets worse than that.
You inconsistently included the older games even though they were different series and some of them bucked the formula of the other games in their series and were just fine. You just grouped them based on release dates before and arbitrary cutoff and not if the game stuck to the formula. And that *is* "boomer logic". You're never too young to be a boomer, apparently. Why was The Adventure's of Link on that list of the good ones? I liked it, sure, but it has *nothing* to do with the formula you presented. Still on your list of "the good ones" though? Same thing with Majora's Mask, except you brought up how it bucks the formula. Still on your list of good ones.
Meanwhile, Windwaker is on your list of "the not as good ones" yet it follows the formula to a T.
Seriously, including Adventure's of Link was *huge* tell. Whatever argument you *could've* made afterwards was *going to be* irrational. There's nothing to link that game in with the others on that list except for Link himself (nyuk). Whatever made the other games enjoyable, you won't be able to apply to that game; and whatever made that game enjoyable, you can't apply in reverse. You're just trying to put logic to feelings and you're doing a bad job.
Which is fine, I guess, you're 23 (22?) after all. You're vibing on "older is better" but don't try to justify it this way. Because what you said in the video was clearly wrong. It doesn't fit the list.
Honestly, *I'd* be hard pressed to come up with a rational reason why the six you listed should be included together in the context of what makes them collectively better than the others. Even the themes aren't uniform across them. Gameplay, formula, mood, intention... there's nothing that those game share in common between all six of them. At least, nothing that the *other* games in the franchise don't *also* have. But I don't want you to try to come up with a "legitimate" reason for your feelings, either. Just recognize that it *is* a vibe, based on a slogan: "Older is better". I'd *like* for you to escape that vibe, but I'll be fine either way as long as you're honest with yourself and your audience.
My argument isn't that they're better because they're similar, my argument is that the older ones just happen to be better. That isn't necessarily an "older is better" mindset because I never said that a new one _couldn't_ be better.
Now that being said, I think that you're greatly underestimating just how many similarities there are between The Adventure of Link and the rest of the series. I'm planning on covering it when I inevitably make a video on Zelda 2, but I would argue that in some ways its more similar to the original Legend of Zelda than any other game in the series. It very much does follow the same formula, it just happens to add its own unique spin on that formula. Windwaker does the same thing, though it's not as readily apparent. I think that the issue here is that we both have different definitions of what the word "formula" means. Mine is rather vague, as I think that every game prior to A Link Between Worlds generally utilizes the same gameplay loop as Zelda 1, just in different ways.
For what it's worth, I never said that Zelda 2 specifically was better than Windwaker. I said that the first 6 games happen to be in my top 10, meaning that I potentially prefer anywhere between 0 and 4 of the later games to any of those first 6. I'll admit right now that Windwaker is one of the games that I like more than Zelda 2.
It doesn't though
Source?
@@ThePlinkster He made it the fuck up.
Modern zelda doesn't have issues, totk is a masterpiece your just blinded by nostalgia like other zelda "fans" aka the fake ones.
Stay away from my favorite franchise from now on, thanks
Nah. It's my favorite franchise, and I have just as much of a right to call the new games bad as you have to call them good.
How many Zelda games have you played?
>spacing
I just think you are wrong and if you want a game the way you like it learn to code and make one yourself. I feel like that effort would me more constructive than whining on RUclips.
@@rdfarley89 the whining couldn’t hurt either though!
Brain dead rage bait.
@@ThePlinkster if people like the older games better why not just play those, or make a game you want to play? It's like you are just being professionally butthurt.
@ProjectionProjects2.7182 yeah probably, this guy sounds like a whiney idiot baby.
@@rdfarley89 because I’ve already played the old games and want new ones in the same series that are good? Why is that so unreasonable?
Hb NO?
Modern Zelda are awesome man
I'm kinda sad for you that you got stuck in the past and refused any kind of evolution and only want ALTTP and OOT all over and over again =/
I can get why the change aren't good in the eyes of some, but I prefer that over a series that rot and dwell in the same loop mechanic without ever changing !
@@Althea034 literally nobody wants that, but go off.
Know what really sucks... this video. Literally unwatchable😂
@@NeoDeity seems pretty easy to watch for everyone else!
No, it's really not buddy. There is no need to cope about it. Just fix your audio.
@@NeoDeity you know what? That’s a fair criticism.
Stop hating awesome Zelda. And the wind waker is great. Such as A Link Between Worlds.
@kilimation1712 I never said Windwaker wasn’t great, just that I prefer the older games.
you mean why modern zelda is awesome
@@minecraftotalwar I said what I meant. Feel free to disagree though!