The Beyerdynamic DT 880 (600 Ohms) Does Not Need The Power You Were Told
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- Опубликовано: 11 окт 2024
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Very interesting topic. After some (a lot) of reading, it seems that we can think of the amp as a voltage source with a resistor (amp's internal resistance) connected in series with the headphone. You turn the volume knob to increase output voltage and thus you get a louder volume out of the headphone.
The ratio between the series resistor and the headphone's coil resistance determines how much of the voltage gets applied over the resistor (turns to heat) and the headphone (turns to sound, kinda). Now, the impedance of dynamic headphones changes with frequency. For HD600 at 1kHz it's 300Ω, so 1V output with 1Ω output impedance get's applied as 0.03V over the resistor and 9.97V over the headphone. At 100Hz the headphone is 600Ω and the numbers are 0.02V and 9.98V. So voltage over the headphone changes just 0.01V across the whole frequency band. But, if the amp's internal resistance was 100Ω, voltage over the headphone would be 7.5V @ 1kHz vs. 8.6V @ 100hz, so the amp now put out 1.1V more for the bass region. In general, as the amp's output impedance grows from zero towards the headphone's nominal impedance, then changes in the headphone's impedance have more effect on that voltage division, and it starts to impose the 'phone's impedance curve as an EQ which you then hear. So an OTL tube amp would also add more bass to an HD600 via this mechanism.
Also this would explain why cables with different resistance can have an audible sound difference with loud speakers where the resistances are smaller than with headphones.
And since its a series resistor, you should be able to test this by taking a 0Ω amp and adding a 100Ω resistor in series with the headphone. In fact, the headphone output of the Emotiva A-100 is implemented in this way. They take the speaker outputs and put a 200Ω resistor in series. They say that it's tribute to vintage implementations and that many people prefer it that way. If the headphone would be 200Ω also, then it'd end up seeing just halv of the output voltage, and it's impedance curve would be applied as an EQ as explained above. Also if you do the math, it turns out that a high-output-impedance puts about the same amount of power to a wide range of headphone impedances (e.g. about 100mW for 16 - 600Ω headphones), whereas a low-output-impedance amp put a lot more power to low-impedance cans and then it drops down to that same 100mW at 600Ω, for example. The jumpers on the Emotiva bypass this resistor and the output impedance becomes close to zero [source: Keith-something who seems to represent Emotiva on a forum, and the A-100 manual for some parts]. I have not heard this amp with the DT 880 so I don't know if its better or worse than something else, but with the jumpers in place its about 0Ω. Someone mentioned voltage rails, and the A-100 has 24V rails IIRC, but if raising the voltage means turning the volume up, then we'd only be using a small portion of that max voltage. If a transient would require more than max voltage in a smaller amp, then it would cut it at max, ie. it would distort and not e.g make the bass more sluggish.
Now, I did fid some discussion about improving the dynamic behavior of under-damped 'phones by increasing the output impedance, though it seems that was mostly for much lower-impedance 'phones than 600Ω. But I dunno, maybe it could also get overdamped at a really high ratio of 'phone vs output impedance, so it'd be slower than critically damped. But now I'm purely guessing. There was a mention that one could also add a capacitor there and then tune the EQ effect with the resistor and then somehow the dynamic response with the capasitor. There's also talk that distorsion increases as output impedance goes up, but one guy was speculating if its actually just because of how it's measured and if its really affecting the audio. Some other guy was saying that damping factor doesn't have any discernible effect on headphone sounds as the driver masses are so low and the damping effects from air is great - speakers would be much more suspectible to damping factor limits.
So, complex. What I think of this is that maybe if you have a 100Ω BeyerDynamic amp, then probably it's designed to drive headphones with impedances from 300Ω and up. I don't know what you'd then do, but it seems likely that you can use that limitation to optimize something in the amp so that it works really well for those cans, but maybe a 0Ω could work even better for low-impedance cans. And mobile devices and bluetooth amps don't have a lot of voltage, so low impedances are favourable (max power output also).
So, interesting test would be either adding that series resistor or trying to add e.g. with the 'phones impedance curve shape to a 0Ω amp to see how much closer does it get to that 100Ω amp in sound. Maybe with those switchable-Z amps. And the capacitor, though I dunno nothing 'bout it.
I'll be following your videos for more!
Sources:
www.innerfidelity.com/content/musings-headphone-amplifier-output-impedance
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/does-the-amplifier-voltage-swing-limits-headphone-dynamics.9483/
nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html
Holy cow, you encapsulated this issue better than I ever could. Thanks! Any idea where I can find a series resistor for cheap to test on one of my amps? As for a switchable -Z amp, I've got my eye on 2. They're pretty expensive, unfortunately.
@@NoThemeReviews Ha, thanks! I so just had to unload all that from my mind, glad you found it helpful.
I suppose you could just get 2-3 different resistors and 3.5mm jacks to make short resistive extension chords and then swap between them. Seems like you might be able to use a potentiometer (2 poles connected): www.resistorguide.com/variable-resistor/
@@NoThemeReviews To be honest, why I found this so interesting is that I recently temporarily agreed to give up my speakers for a sound bar in this new smaller apartment and thought I'd buy some great headphones instead. The Emotiva + Argons or DT880/600 seemed like it could be the most-fun combo - I thought the 45w power makes absolutely no sense but it wasn't that expensive so I could just try it anyway and maybe use the A-100 for speakers later. But while waiting for the packages it just started to make less and less sense, so I went ahead and got a Fiio K5 Pro + Sundaras instead. So... now I've actually got 2 unopened packages (A-100 and DT880/600) that I'd love to try but don't really dare to open because I want to be 100% sure I can return them (to Germany). The biggest issue with the A-100, for me, is that the box is just so freaking deep and it's an industrial design so I just don't have space for it.
I saw you had the Sundaras as well, any quick impressions between those and the DT880/600s? The latter amped with the Beyer A20 or something like that. I knew the Sundaras are not going to have that much bass, so I'm running a +2db shelf EQ from 80Hz down + some minor adjustments. I know I'll need something like miniDSP NanoDigi or the Sonix Exciter you reviewed to keep this up with the TV or Xbox, but that's still a lot less money than an LCD-X or similar with more bass.
Great voice in this conversation!
Thanks for the write-up.
Great set of information, I followed it as much as a lay person could. Hopefully this information may assist. The DT 880 600ohm sound excellent on the Hugo 2 which is an odd creature but has a 0.025Ω output impedance.
If I recall that “other reviewer” said to get the 880s to sound the best you need a large amount of power. I understood what he was getting at. He didn’t say you can’t drive them with less power. They just didn’t sound as good.
Can Topping A90 get dt880 to sound the best it can?
Rashique Bin Nasir you can drive these with the smsl sp 200 easily
@@barood7588 I tried it. Sound wasn't very good. claustrophobic.
EXACTLY ......and then he proceeds to say how shitty it sounds on all those mid tier amps lol......like ok so u basically agree with z
@@rashiquebinnasir9528 i have heard that it does not, but i can answer that in a few days. i own the a90, and the 880 will be here tomorrow to test it
I feel like you could've just called out Zeos and he wouldn't have cared...
he did, just watch the closing remarks
Z doesn't care. He is irreverent to anything other reviewers say.
Its @ 25:50
The Z mans word is gospel though. If he says you need a nuclear reactor then get ready for the fallout.
While I admire your enthusiasm for the hobby and your somewhat scientific approach to determining what causes some differences between the amps vis a vis the 600 ohm DT880's (I've had my pair for years and got me into building my own headphone amps and then getting a plethora of headphones to test my amps), you are missing a key point on amplifier design. I have been an EE for 40 years and a geek all my life and have been messing with audio since the 60's. A little history might clear things up. In the stone age of headphones, they were all 600 ohms or thereabouts for one reason. Early amps of course used tubes and tubes are voltage devices, whereas transistors are current devices. So when you are driving a relatively delicate coil that is found in a headphone that can't dissipate much power, and you hit it with high voltage with a low impedance coil like you have in most of today's headphones, you get a lot of current, according to Ohm's law. All that current will make short work of the coil very quickly. That is why 600 Ohms was chosen, to keep the high voltage from destroying the voice coils.
You have only a part of the answer when you talk about power. You also have to factor in what the voltage swing is. Power is a relationship between voltage, current, and impedance. If you want to make a high impedance headphone 'sing' you need a substantial voltage across the voice coil. Most modern amps are current devices with relatively low voltage outputs, which work nicely with low impedance headphones. While a low output impedance of less than an Ohm is easily achievable with a transistor amp, it was not so with tube amps and is the reason why tube amps usually have problems with a good damping factor with low impedance headphones and the bass will sound 'flabby' because it is severely under-damped. My guess is the amps that sounded 'good' with the DT880's have higher output voltages than the ones that don't, and the reason the DT880's do well on the Emotiva, because it is a speaker amp is running much higher voltage rails. Your amp comparisons really are almost worthless w/o an ABX switch box. You may be able to tell a difference in bass levels with your technique, but there is little if any difference in higher frequencies that you can detect. BTW, in my opinion the Schitt and Audio GD amps might look nice, but their electrical designs are dubious if not downright ridiculous. There are much better designs for far less money and you seem to have quite a few of them. Price is a poor performance indicator when it comes to amps. Keep reading NWAVGuy's stuff. He explains it much better than I can and is spot on. ASR is an excellent resource for anything recent.
Thanks for the feedback.
great input. what are some amps you consider well designed?
Yeah! What he said!
which amps are better designs for less money in your opinion?
You had me until you said ASR is a good resource lmao
I like your reviews but the "i'm not like other youtubers' shtick is kind of exhausting. I think your reviews are more helpful than you realize and, you shouldn't worry so much about zeos or, whoever, really. Thanks for the heads up on these, anyway! If I'm ever interested in a v-shape, man, they sound fun. And you're very nice to justify your preference of the special edition but, goddamn, they look so much better.
Lol. I need to take advice like yours. I'm trying to tone it down. It was worse before. More work ahead, I know. As for the special edition, god they look so much better! I've looked online for a reason why the standard version has those horns, and I haven't found an answer. It's pretty silly.
@@NoThemeReviews Thanks for considering my opinion. I really think you have a fantastic ear and I genuinely appreciate seeing someone like yourself who really does care about how their content may influence others. And, yeah, what is up with those horns? I can't even tell when they're for. Are they clips?
The all black looks AWSUM! I'd get it but I don't have any amps with a ridiculously high output impedance.
@@PipkinXIV The clips are for holding your post it notes which doubles as a cat ear holder. I have the DT 990 600 ohm and those things are sharp enough to peel the top layer off a finger nail.
@@Assimilator702 You can dull the sharp edges with sandpaper. Either 600 grit, 250, 80 or 32 grit. Depending on which impedance you have. Don't mix them up
I have a vintage pair of DT-880 600ohm from the eighties. With most amps they do sound quite thin and not fun at all, but I used to have an Audio GD Phoenix which I consider the perfect match for the headphones. Everyone who came to my home and listened to that combo were literally blown away how great a 30€ used old pair of headphones could sound. It's not about the specs or measured performance but finding the best working combinations.
Hi, when you said "most amps" can you provide an example? I ask becuase I still refuse to believe that a 600ohm rated hardware can be driven by a 30usd 4-channel amp like the S-AMP from Samson.
I have alot of vintage Beyers and Sennheisers, it’s weird because the 80s Beyers sound like modern Sennheisers with thicker bass and fat mids while the old Sennheisers are more like today’s Beyers with thinner, brighter sound, it’s like they decided to switch with each other.
Also Forgot to mention that my Dark Voice (with upgraded Tubes) Loves the DT880’s and also powers them effortlessly with insane Volume even at 10 O’Clock👍 So Do not discount using your Tube amps for driving these.
What you’re saying makes far more sense (damping factor, output impedance) than what Zeos advocated for this, which I found funny but you’re right it can be dangerous - but just to be clear, he wasn’t stacking amps so much as using a feature of the Geshelli Labs Enog2 Pro DAC, which has three “volume levels” that are selectable via the button on the front, but this is designed to reduce the volume from normal output for amplifier matching:
“The ENOG2 Pro DAC has a dual function switched located in the front of the device. If you hold down for 3 seconds it will change the volume level. There are three volume levels to choose from. Each level will significantly reduce the output volume for increased compatibility with different amplifiers or connected peripherals.”
That is the feature he’s using. I have this DAC connected to my Cavali Liquid Carbon X and I’m using the default normal output, not one of the two lower volume output settings. Presumably he’s also using the normal volume output setting and not one of the reduced output levels.
Ah. Thanks for the clarification
If "stacking amps" is what I'm thinking it is, most likely the amplified output of the first would clip the input stage of the second one.
So I bought the 600 Ohm Dt880's. Tried them with a Zen Dac. They get loud but most frequencies sound like trash, it doesn't have enough power I think, the output impedance is low too. So the Zen Dac now functions as my primary DAC, so it's still very useful. Back when I watched this for the first time I didn't get the point and bought the Liquid Spark rather than any of the amps you recommended (I couldn't find that 60$ thing from Douk Audio/Nobsound at the time, The Samson S-Amp was and still is not available where I live, and the Marantz PHA-3 was more expensive than the Liquid Spark). So anyway I play them on high gain at anywhere from 9 to 12 o'clock and to me they sound fantastic, but these are the most expensive and best quality headphones I bought yet and my first open back on top of that. So I don't know any better. When upgrading my amp though, I will pick the Emotiva BasX A-100 because they can power my Jamo s803 passive speakers that I bought as speakers for my computer while also powering my Dt880s 600Ohm (the headphone out has a power of 350 mW per channel at 600 Ohm, 8 Ohms: 60 mW / channel; not 50W like you claimed in the video. [ emotiva.com/collections/all/products/a-100 ] ) and this does it all in one box, rather than having two separate boxes: a speaker amp and a headphone amp, like I do now, so it's gonna save me some deskspace and where I live I can still buy it and it's for roughly 200$ less than the Beyerdynamic a20, which is just a headphone amplifier. It's also like a 100$ more than my speaker amp(class D fosi audio from aliexpress) and headphone amp combined, but it's gonna be an upgrade on both fronts so It's absolutely ideal for me. I might have to spend another 100$ on an RCA bluetooth receiver, cause I don't know if my btr5 will as a bluetooth receiver for it. I don't think it will since it doesn't work as a dongle dac for my headphone amp either, just bypasses the whole thing, it's hella weird.
Dayum, that's some good work you've done. Kudos for that.
mine are off for a mini-xlr mod so i can't test it on the specific amp that was in the review of the one-who's-name-you-won't-mention :)
but, no, what was called a nuclear powerplant of an amp really isn't that, even the unmentioned one corrected himself afterwards, stating the output at 600ohms is about 0.6W/ch, not the 50 which are @4ohm (with jumpers applied)
edit:sorry, my mistake...it's 50W@8Ohm, not 4
I have the have the MMX 300, DT 880, DT 990 - all of them with 600 ohm impedance. It's pretty obvious that I like Beyers. I can perfectly drive all of them with my Burson Playmate (2 W @ 32 ohm). Execpt for very quiet recordings going anywhere above 60 on high gain gets uncomfortably loud.
Edit: Nevermind. Just got a Beyerdynamic A 20 and it wipes the floor with the Burson when it comes to 300+ Ohm headphones.
I m ordering dt 880 600ohms to be powered by idsd mciro black.
5 years ago i used to have the 250ohms versikn powered by a fiio a5 amp.
Hopefully the 600ohm version with the micro idsds black will sound better.
The Emotiva BasX A100 does not put out 50 watts into 600 ohm headphones. The manufactures spec sheet states it outputs 0.6 watt (600 milliwatts) into 600 ohms. Just ohm's law at work.
For those who are seeing contradictory comments below regarding damping factor and output impedance: the rule of 1/8th for damping factor is not set in stone. It is a general rule that tends to work with most headphones. But not with all. Beyerdynamic's A2 manual (page 16) talks about the amp's selectable output impedance. Beyerdynamic recommends using 100 ohms output impedance for high impedance headphones. Others will say you need to have the lowest output impedance as possible. But exceptions to rules exist for a reason: because sometimes things are different.
Furthermore, 2 people have provided links for the same blog entry that ostensibly measured the DT 880 Special Edition. These posters think the blog clearly shows that the Special Edition has different sound signature because of this blog. I am not familiar with the blogger or his other work. Furthermore, the linked measurement is for the 250 ohm DT 880, NOT the 600 ohm DT 880. I have no documentation from any source that the 600 ohm version is tuned differently from the standard headphones.
Tomorrow I will get my Emotiva, yes, I was another one more who bites the cake with Z review. And now I dont know if it will returning the amp or try and see if it will damaged my 880s
Lol. Hopefully it won't be an issue. There's always a tolerance with drivers. I think Zeos just likes his music much too loud. If you have another amp, maybe you can test between them and tell me what you hear.
i´ve checked the s-amp with the dt880s/600. The S-amp has enough power for driving the 880´s with insane volume at 12 o´clock and the sound seems better cause it´s clearer.
BUT!! the whole spacious magical sound from the dt880´s is gone. The reason for that seems, the S-amp is somehow cutting the high frequencies.The soundstage is getting much smaller with the s-amp.
I don´t know from where exactly, but i´m guessing s-amp cuts somewhat above 11 or 12 khz on. So it is no wonder the sound seems clearer with a voicecoil which has not much to do, cause it uses not the whole sound spectrum.
Anyway, it´s a nice little amp for insane volume speacially with high ohm BD HP´s and maybe for playing arround a bit.
Did you trying any amp better than the s-amp? I am looking at that amp but also something else affordable like that one that can power the 880.
@@hunterjg777 The S-Amp is the worst unit you can imagine for dt 880´s. Buy an AUNE S17 Pro for 600-700 bucks new and you have 2K+ sound for all your headphones, dt880 incl. thank me later
Hello @No theme Reviews , first I have to congratulate you for this amazing video and explanation....second I need your advice: I just bought the DT 990 600 ohms, My home amplifier is an yamaha a-s501, on the specifications it says outuput Impedance on the headphone jack: 430 mV/470 ohms, is this enough or too high to be paired to the 990's? As an alternative I tought about the Fiio K5 PRO, but don't know if it's good or bad to be paired with the 990's. What do you think? Any recomendation beside's these? Thank you for any help!
I've never used the S501, and its specs aren't particularly clear. The US website does not have a headphone power output table, and the Japanese website has contradictory information in the table. I think the 430mv/470 ohm is referring to something about CDs, but I can't understand it.
Anyway, I wouldn't be confident that the S501 has enough power and high enough impedance for the DT990. I don't think the S501 has 470 ohm output impedance; that's likely a typo.
What would you recommend the between Dt 880 and Hd58x, Im looking for a wide soundstage and detail, but the dt 880 seems like a hassle pairing an amp with. I have a Lyr 3 and a Topping A50s. Also your reviews are great!
I have a 880-related video coming out today. You may want to watch that.
As for a choice between the 880 and 58x...well...the sound signatures are different. I think in detail, the 880 when properly amped does provide greater detail and clarity. As for soundstage, that's a tougher call. I'd say the 880 is marginally wider.
Hd58x does not have a wide soundstage
Also, the stunningly beautiful model of DT 880 you review in this video appear to *only* come in a 250 ohm on Amazon; Could you please let us know where you found *that* edition in 600 ohm? Thanks so much!
It’s on Amazon. The link I placed in the description section has a special edition 600 ohm option. It took me a few days to find mine. I don’t know if they’re limited in number or just sold out due to the shipping restrictions worldwide. Search on Amazon and you might find a few more listings. Amazon’s search engine is pretty bad.
Nice review! Hope you can help me with my setup
(referring to 600 ohm version) I can only max my budget to Vali 2. Will sound better the Magni or the Vali 2 based on the fact that it has higher output impedance (6 ohms) and tube amps tend to work better with high impedance headphones? Thanks.
I can't answer the Vali 2 question directly as I don't have that amp (eeh...maybe I should...we'll see). The only comparison I can make is to the Loxjie P20 ($100) and Bellari HA540 Mk2 ($200). The P20 can't drive the 880 properly, I'm sorry to say. The 540 can, though not as well as the Beyer and Cayin amps I tested in this video.
I suspect the the Vali 2 might drive the 880, though how well is only guesswork on my part. Schiit offers a 15-day return, starting from the date you receive the order.
Basing on a review I've seen (don't remember which right now) they tell that the Vali 2 actually drives the 880, but it's tbe same as Magni, it can drive it but losses detail and the essence of the headphones, but I guess that the Vali 2 will sound better than the Magni, as it has more output impedance, and tubes tend to work better with high impedances, and I also like tube sound, so I may end up getting it if I read more reviews and opinions about it 🙂
Edit: actually tubes "distort the sound" and lose some detail, so it may sound well, because the detail that the beyers can lose with a not matching amp is transformed into "distorsion" with tube amplifiers
@@talala6713 The Vali 2 is a hybrid tube amp. The tube is in the preamp section of the amp and NOT the power section. The Darkvoice is a true tube amp while the Vali 2 is a solid state amp in the output section that was designed to have higher output impedance but not because it uses a tube, which is in the preamp section.
Can I just check, are these definitely the 600ohm version? Because looking on the web and stuff, the special edition black version looks to only come in 250ohms, unless you get the ‘manufaktur’ customisable ones and choose all the options in black.
The Special Edition absolutely come in 600 ohm version. There are several other reviews for the 600 ohm SE. www.head-fi.org/threads/new-beyerdynamic-dt-880-special-edition-chrome-version-600-ohm.869619/
Love your videos mate, but Zeos does say specifically, making loud sound doesn't mean that the Amp is right for the Cans. But great video nonetheless mate.
Fair enough!
Right, exactly, lol, it’s all subjective when it gets to certain level’s
Great review with explaining everything. I just bought A20 as I own some 600ohm Beyers headphones. I would like to suggest something, you did great job with comparing AMPs, is it possible to do the same with other headphones? I really would like to know how AMPs compare between each other when you use 150-300 ohm headphones, or maybe even something that is 32 or 50 ohms.
Great suggestion!
@@NoThemeReviews Out of curiousity, what do you think about DT880 in comparison to something like 1990 and T1?
I think the 600 ohm 880 is smoother than the 1990, and has no worse detail than the 1990. The T1 is just a joy to listen to. Its smooth, musical tuning is one of the best I’ve heard of any headphone. The 880 sounds less detailed and the bass less controlled than the T1.
@Tommy How is the sound of this combo? I'm currently own Asgard 3 amp, but i think that sound a little bit shy with this amp, what does this amp do for the bass region?
I've been enjoying my DT880 Pro 600Ohms for the last ~10 years, paired with an upgraded Woo Audio WA6 v1, a Sophia Princess Rectifier tube and different driver tubes I roll depending on how I feel. Nothing super extraordinary really (I mean, it's a $900 amp without the upgrades) but it's an incredibly good match. Super enjoyable experience
Good video! I am interested in these or the 990s. I use a NAD c326 bee as an amp, with a headphones output of 68 ohm. What can you recommend? 250 or 600 ohm version? Thanx!
I’m pretty sure the C326 won’t be able to drive the 600 ohm variant. The 250 ohm version is probably a safer bet. There isn’t much difference in sound between them.
Thanks for the review i use headphone for hours on end since i am a master/producer
Huh. As a baby audio hobbyist and holder of an electrical engineering degree, this makes perfect sense. Impedance matching allows more power to be delivered to the load. It turns out tube amps often increase power delivery at higher loads, rather than the other way around. For instance, the Schiit Valhalla 2 (a tube amp) gives 180mW at 50ohms, but gives 450mW at 600ohms, while the Lyr 3 (not a tube amp) at 50ohms give 4000mW (I hate saying thousands of mW, but I don't want this to be misread) and at 600ohm only gives 450mW.
hola, tengo una pregunta. Entonces el rendimiento (sonido) puede variar dependiendo de la posición del potenciómetro? es decir, por ejemplo, podría cambiar la respuesta de frecuencia o el soundstage dependiendo de la posición del knob? gracias
I can easily drive them with XDuuo XD05 basic!! Absolutely no problem with the sound. Even D90/A90 can power them just fine with fantastic sound quality.
The BasX A-100 only has 50W at 8ohms. Do you know of any 8 ohm headphones? At 600 ohms it has 600mW. For frame of reference for 600 ohm loads the 789 SE has 100mW, the Atom has 125mW, the SP200 has 220 mW, and the Asgard 3 has 300mW.
I recently pulled out my DT 880 250 ohm Chrome Edition and was pleasantly surprised at what I was hearing from my Magni 3+. Compared to the DT 990 600 ohm it’s not as different of a sound signature as many would believe. DT880 has slightly more forward and intimate mids and the treble isn’t as hot. Bass is very similar between the 2 models with slightly more midbass kick on the DT 990. I don’t have the assortment of amps that you have but both headphones exhibit a tuning that’s more suitable in a wider range of music than say for example the Focal Elegia. Now I need the DT 880 600 ohm Limited Edition to compare. Even if it’s close to the 250 ohm version I feel these headphones are keepers.
I just got my DT880 600ohm 20 minutes ago, now listening to the classical musics from German composers. I have a 7-year-old HD700 as well as a new DT990 pro 250Ohm that's ready to be returned to Amazon due to its piercing trebles (might change my mind in the next 30 days). To my surprise, the DT880 600ohm doesn't sound that different from the HD700, actually I'd say it's a what a HD700 should have been, aka a better version of HD600. I might change my mind after the headphones break in but I think the DT880 600ohm just sounds right at all frequencies, with slightly smaller soundstage than the DT990 but not that obvious.
Now stwitching to the DT990 Pro, I'm surprised, again, at how clear the DT990 is compared to the DT880. It feels like the DT880 has a bit of "Sennheiser" veil compared to the DT990. Now I'm confused 😂
@@fdc4810 What did you go with? Haha
Why do you think the sound changes so much depending on output impedance? The DT880 600 Ω is measured on diyaudioheaven and displays no tonality changes between a 0.2 Ω output impedance amplifier and and a 120 Ω one.
nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html
Also, one man's measurement is merely a factor for consideration. Anyway, his graph does show a difference with altered output impedance, particularly in the bass. So, it's not quite accurate to say that there's no change. Moreover, HOW he measured and the sensitivity of his equipment is equally important for discussion. It would have been helpful had he repeated the impedance test with the headphone in different positions.
I'd be very interested in reading how he explains his results in light of NwAvGuy's treatise on the matter, the other sources linked in the comments, and Beyerdynamic's recommendations. I suppose what Beyerdynamic says may not be as important as data, but it's still something to consider. I am genuinely interested in knowing why his results differ from both prior discussions regarding output impedance, and subjective experience (which is probably not a driving factor).
@@NoThemeReviews Any differences above 20 Hz in his measurements are extremely slight. "The smallest audible difference most can hear is about 1 dB" - NwAvGuy. The higher the Ω of the headphones, the less the 1/8 rule matters. My understanding is that 600 Ω Beyers are supposed to work on high and low output impedance source without changing tonality.
Based on DIYAudioHeaven's graph? Well, that's one measurement. Again, it's fairly strange that his measurements contradict the information I found and spoke of in the review. I can't answer for DIY.
Thanks you for the video. Very thorough. Have had DT880's for 1.5 years. Do you game at all?
I am looking for a gaming amp (usb audio input,with mic jack) with a small desktop profile.
I currently use a Creative Soundblaster X7 which eats up the 600ohm no probs. It's mains powered and very good with music to boot. It is bulky though.
Creative and other companies have smaller products but I am unconvinced as they run on usb for power.
Do you think any desktop amp that sources it's power from usb could ever sufficiently power DT880's? Cheers Bob
I don't game much. Unfortunately, there aren't many options for a gaming amp with mic input. I have the Sound Blaster G6, which does a fine job. Burson makes the Fun and Playmate which have mic inputs. But that's the only options I'm aware of.
I already own a darkvoice and am interested in this headphone, do you reccomend it? I saw one of your replys to another comment saying something similar and you said the bass is muddy. Is it really bad or does it maintain a decent level of detail?
Thanks for the review! This confirmed my suspictions on zeos' review. I enjoy his content but its obvious that beyer would make this headphone with an intent for it not to require speaker amp amounts of power
Edit: I now own both and I did not like the dt880 on the darkvoice and I sold it.
IMO, the Darkvoice pairs fine with the 880. I think the bass is cleaner, tighter, and more detailed on a neutral solid state amp with proper output impedance, but that's a matter of taste. I can't tell you if the Darkvoice will provide a "decent level of detail" since I've not used the stock tubes. You will get slightly different performance with various tube pairings, so it's not possible for me to make a definitive statement, were I inclined to.
If you intend to get the 600 ohm variant, then the Darkvoice should do fine. But, honestly, I see no need to get the 600 ohm variant. The 250 ohm version is almost identical in sound signature, and doesn't require specialized amps.
@@NoThemeReviews thanks for the reply! I appreciate it. Im just trying to find another headphone that pairs well with my dark voice(i own a 650 already)
I think there are a few things to address from this video so as not to (intentionally or not) mislead people.
Firstly, ohms law, and how power scales with impedance does not seem to be mentioned AT ALL in this video.
Take the emotiva BasX for example. It is 50w yes....at 8ohms. Meaning at 600ohms it can only provide 660mW of power.
Also remember that power scales in a logarithmic manner, and so -8dB on that amp would keep you well below the 100mW max limit of the dt880. (or just don't run it high gain)
at 32ohms or any normal headphone load, it only has twice the power of the 789 or Topping a90.
If you are not on high gain, and are not running it absolute full tilt, you are fine, and your ears will be damaged long before the headphones are.
Secondly, you seem to be inferring that a higher output impedance results in the headphones being driven better, which is demonstrably false. Higher output impedance can alter the tuning of a headphone, due to the fact that dynamic drivers do not have a flat impedance across the frequency range. However it DOES NOT result in more power being supplied to them.
If a high output impedance amp results in a better sound, it is a result of personal preference of sound signature, NOT how well the headphones are being driven.
This could of course explain why zeos liked them on the BasX, and its the reason why the HD800 are so amp picky for example. But to say that they are being driven better is equivalent to saying my car goes faster because it has racing stripes. I might enjoy driving it more, but it does not actually drive better
When did I say that higher output impedance means the amp is providing more power? I never said that. Instead, what I said is that one might try to achieve the type of sound I heard from the A2/A20/iHa-6 if you used an amp that provides greater amplification but low output impedance. I strongly suggest you take a step back and listen to the words I actually used.
The point of this video is not to go through logarithmic scales. Very few people 1) understand it, 2) want to hear it, and 3) will have the attention span to fully consider it. That's why I repeatedly told people in the video to check out Innerfidelity and NwAvGuy's posts.
Instead, the point is to determine as quickly as possible what does and does not work--since that is entirely what the vast majority of people want to know.
If you're concerned about ohms law and power scaling, this is the wrong channel for you. That's not what I focus on since it is a very niche field. No offense to you, but I have no doubt you're in the minority who wants such detailed analysis. I think eevblog is the place for such things. Or you can generate a discussion on ASR.
It's unfortunate you think this content is lacking. But, frankly, the type of content you're demanding is not what I am prepared to offer. And despite your allegation that I'm misleading people, not only did I do the tests at my own expense, but I also directly asked Beyerdynamic repeatedly about the proper amp pairing.
You should at the very least concede that measurements matter only when they actually matter. Theory can take you only so far until you put the headphones on your head and listen. So, while you may be correct in general, you're not necessarily correct in regard to the 880.
Thanks for the feedback, though.
So, if I don't have enough budget to get the A20 and I only have for Heresy or Vali 2 or something else, will the 250 ohm version fit better and have better sound signature than if I get the 600 ohm ones with the Heresy? Thanks.
PD: Nice video, helped a lot
I can’t say since I don’t have the 250 version. But it will be easier to drive for sure.
@@NoThemeReviews Thanks!
I have a lot of older Home Theater Amps. I can't find specs but the manual says "PHONES:
Accepts low- and high- impedance headphones". It is a Sony STR-SE501. I also have a Parasound R/HD-300II from 1988. A Sony STR-DE915 and a Yamaha RX-V620. Not being a minimalist doesn't bother me, but I don't know how well amps like this work with Head Phones versus headphone amps. Would anyone here recommend the 600ohm?
Great comparison between the different amps. Would the DT 880 (600 ohm) headphones work well with the Fiio K3 portable DAC/Amp, or the Fiio K5 desktop Amp? According to reviews online, it said that the Fiio K5 can only run headphones that are up to 300 ohms. Is this true?
Neither the K3 nor the K5 can drive 600 ohm headphones
@@NoThemeReviews Thanks for letting me know. I'll look for something else. Can you recommend anything?
I reviewed a few alternatives for this headphone in follow-up videos. The Samson S-Amp, a Douk Audio amp/Dac, and Marantz PH3 will easily drive the 600 ohm 880.
@@NoThemeReviews Thanks for taking time to reply. I'll check those amps out.
It might be isterested to see meassurement graphes of the different AMPs + dt 880 how/if the output impedance influence those.
A few articles I linked do have measurements
@nomorereviews the fiio k5 pro has 1.5w and output impedance of 2 ohm what do you think?
It easily drives my 250 ohm 990s but i wanted to get these
The K5 Pro has plenty of power for the DT880...it's the output impedance that's the limitation. It may not make any difference to you, as you might enjoy how the 880 performs on the K5.
@@NoThemeReviews im about to buy 880s im sticking to the 250 ohm version
High output impedance changes FR. It doesn't improve anything by default.
The Emotiva A-100 IS available on their website. It was out of stock for awhile, but I just bought one a few weeks ago. It's a great amp for whatever you want to do with it.
Caveat: one must be exceedingly careful at all times with headphones.
Simply the vídeo I needed. We bought the DT990 600 Ohms and we was looking for an amplifier. Thanks by tour help
DT990 600 Ohm is another story. It's easier to drive.
@@thomaskohler5181 Not really. I got both the 880 and the 990 in 600 ohm and they need exactly the same volume on my amp.
e50/l50 stack from topping powers the 880 600ohm just fine. on high gain a comfortable listening level with full dynamics is had just over 930am / if you try to push it to noon on the dial you'll be deaf before you get to the end of the song. no distortion as far as i can raise the volume. and at 600ohm this little amp can't be putting out more than a couple hundred mw.
27:19 "Would a really powerful amplifier with low output impedance sound the same as a low powered amp that has high output impedance? Well, it's hypothetically possible"
Uhmm... Emotiva?... it has high power AND high output impedance (up to 220ohm). Both you and Zeos are right. Zeos tested the Emotiva and it was great because of the specs, you tested other amps (Beyer's pick included) and showed us that there are other great options too.
Thanks for the video though! Highly appreciated. Btw, Zeos is kind of a meme, and he KNOWS it, I mean, his type of speaking is part of it. Don't be angry on him, I mean his reviews were never professional spec related, with lots of tests and graphs. People watch Zeos because he gives honest feedback (even if you think he doesn't, the proof is the high amount of subs and patrons). He is always that funny guy that's entertaining to watch even if you don't understand the physical ideas behind how an amp works.
Very interesting. Do you think I could drive the 880 600oms with just my presonus audiobox 22vsl ? The audio interface have 30 mW per channel, @ 60Ω load of maximum power on the headphone output
Not effectively.
Can it be driven well by a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20? through the balanced monitors output instead the headphones output
Emotiva BasX can put out about 20V of voltage. If its output impedance is 220 Ohm, then the total load is 820 Ohm and the output current will be about 24 mA. 24 mA into 600 Ohm equals ~350 mW. In short, it's very powerful but not that much more powerful than some headphone amps than can push 100-150 mW into 600 Ohm.
Great info/tests. It isn’t true that a portable amp can’t drive these. The Hip dac2 has a power boost switch and a non muddy bass boost switch. When these are engaged I can’t imagine how the 880 600 ohms could sound better. The rechargeable Hip dac2 is a wonderful product.
Well, not exactly. Dynamic drivers are fairly easy to drive. It’s an over generalization that high impedance headphones always need a lot of power. The real requirement for the 600ohm 880 is the amp’s output impedance.
I want to use the DT-880 with my Asus Xonar Essence STX sound card, ,which has enough power to drive them at a decent volume. It only has 10 Ohms of output impedance though. So, based on your report, the 250 Ohm Version would be more suited for that sound card, wouldn't it?
Theoretically yes.
It's obviou you did your due diligence in this review, thank you! On a side note, any chance we can get a full ZMF Auteur review soon? Placing my order soon, and I would appreciate your impressions. Thanks!
Of course. I can probably put something together in a week or so. Would that work?
@@NoThemeReviews That would be great, thank you!
BTW, is there a particular amp/dac you want me to test on? You can see my mostly up-to-date gear list here: docs.google.com/document/d/1yvlAcfu9szNWTvybTzK0La8yzrvx7By926qDC7ggC1Q/edit?usp=sharing
@@NoThemeReviews I put in a review request yesterday, but I was curious about how the El Stack from JDS labs pairs with the Auteur, and also how higher end SS amps scale (if at all).
So I am assuming the A2 from The headphone company was more accurate?
I am using the headphone amp of my Pioneer a 30 k speaker amp to drive my dt 880's. I messured the output impedance to be about 380 ohm's. I mostly listen at a quarter volume, when I turn the volume to one half my ears start to hurt.
Seems to be the perfect amp for this headphone :)
What do you think about the ae7 soundcard from creative. Using it right now and asking myself if it is right for my dt 990s at 600 Ohm.
I’ve never used it.
Dunno about that soundcard, but I have that same headphone. And it is true about the impedance. Mine are well matched with the Project Polaris amp when switched to 120 Ohm OI. Oh and if you like a bit of "tube sound", the Polaris has a bit of it but with the lower maintenance of a solid state amplifier.
So i plugged in my elekit tu882 tube amp. Im at 9 oclock for a nice listening volume . bass, detail and dynamics are all there. Definitely great on tubes. When connected to my speaker amp i sometimes need to go from -15 to +5 db which is huge.
What do you think about Aune X7s overall? I know it can manage drive to the 880 600ohm from the unbalanced port but it is needed to put the gain on high from the bottom controls of X7s? Z said it could somehow destroy the amp? I'm still so sorry if the question is stupid.
Not at all, it's not a stupid question. Zeos says things without thinking. I had the X7s for a while, about a year, then sold it. It's a powerful, neutral amp. You'll need to switch to high gain for the extra power needed for some hard to drive headphones. Switching to high gain does not cause issues for the amp; you just need to be careful that you turn the volume knob slowly if you're using low-impedance headphones when high gain is switched on.
@@NoThemeReviews Thank you for the assurance! I'm planning to buy the DT880 600ohm for my collection. I have a very weird setup but as long as it works, right? Focusrite Solo as dac and Aune X7s as amp.
@@tichy_ocean Lol yes. As long as it works and you enjoy the experience, that's what matters.
What do you guys think about dt 880 600 ohm with an tube amp like DarkVoice wich is know for a higher output impedance ?
No Theme Reviews, like and appreciate your reviews. Agree with you that 880 600 ohm does not need crazy power. If you get a chance to test it with Marantz Pro PHA3, I will be very interested in your view. This amp is almost identical (form and specs) with one that you recommended but at a fraction of the price.
Yeah I came across that during my research. Isn’t it discontinued? Sound Devices has something that seems to be identical, the HX3. I think that came out in 2001, or around that time. Sound Devices was very upset a few years ago when they found out other companies had copies their design, and I wonder if Marantz got a notice.
Anyway, I reviewed the HX3 last year. It works quite well with the 880.
@@NoThemeReviews Marantz Pro HA3 does not look discontinued. And at 75 Euro is (to my ears at least) a good match for 880 600 ohms. www.thomann.de/nl/marantz_pro_pha3xeu.htm?sid=9d90017f833e7ce75fb0d11e9711460c
Beyerdynamic know how to make a comfortable headphone. Large genuine circumaural cups, good padding and clamping force which isn't skull crushing. They tend to be pretty solid and durable too despite the rather homespun styling.
Yes usually. The 1770 was a stumble.
Not going to repeat what everyone else said as you seem to have reconciled the point.
But I will repeat that this was an excellent piece.
Thank you for taking the time to collate this information into a video and using your position (that is having multiple amps at the same time) to provide this test.
You're right, impedance is not usually mentioned in the new generation, you occasionally hear about it when "system synergy" gets brought up or as an afterthought as to why planars don't play well with (OTL) tubes.
Yeah, it's treated as taboo. Output impedance is a fairly simple concept that people really should think about. I can't fault the non-discussion on the subject, though. How many reviewers in the last 10 years have dedicated any meaningful time to it? I can think of 2 articles--but I doubt people have the patience to read through them.
hey man big fan from Venezuela, been lurking everywhere if my Little dot 1+ amp can handle the 600ohms version of this headphone, i love this little amp but while the product description doesnt say it powers 150mw @ 300ohms so it will be around 60-75mw.. the amp its an hybrid one
Hi! I don’t have the LD1 so I can’t say how it performs. But it’s my understanding it has 32 ohm output impedance, which is the principal issue. The 600 ohm 880 might pair fine with the LD, but there’s no way for me to know.
I had DT880 600 Ohm and they sound very good powered by modest FiiO K5 amp. I sold those headphones after hearing 250 Ohm version that was far better on my amp. Further more if you have old stereo amp (tested on TEAC A-X35 MkII ) then you would be surprised how good 600 Ohm headphones will sound on such an amp. Why ? because those amps were designed when most headphones were 600 Ohm and that's why typically nowadays people say those old amps have rubbish headphone out with audible noise. Noise floor go away when you connect 600 Ohm headphones.
As for Zeos well I find out long ago (the hard way - spending my own money buing rubbish headphones after listening to his glowing review) that he is not some kind of audio oracle. I laugh my ass off when he was unable to power vintage AKG K240 Monitor 600 Ohm headphones, while I was using the very same headphones with that Teac amp at 50% power.
@@stanisawszczypua9076 again those old amps have high output impedance and that's why they work better with these headphones and the 240s you mentioned. Most modern headphone amplifiers just don't have big output impedance and surprise surprise he has mostly modern headphone amplifiers. Watch the effin video.
Yeah just as I expected, the output impedance of that model is 150 Ohm. 600 ohm headphones love high output impedance amplifiers, which in most cases are gonna be those headphone outputs on speaker amplifiers. That's what 600 ohm is for
@@fclp67 Yes exactly, and that's why for example Beyerdynamic offers not only 600 Ohm variants but also 250 Ohm that works a lot better with modern amps . Yeahh but reviewers like Zeos only see more Ohm=better headphones that just need more power. Same with amps more power= better amp. If you ask him whats the best variant of Beyer 32, 250 or 600 Ohm he wont ask you in return what are you planing to use it with but just say 600 because he correlates high impedance only with high sound quality and that's simple stupid. I used to watch all of his "reviews" but along the way I noticed this dude doesn't actually know a lot and he never tried to learn. For example Metal571 (sadly he stopped making reviews) always ask what those headphones are intended for.
Are you sure you own the 600 ohm edition of the headphone? I don't recall a black 600 ohm dt 880 ever being sold..
Check the Amazon link yourself. They exist.
No Theme Reviews Ah, weird.
I appreciate your efforts in teaching people how to use at best their DT880. I am relatively new to this hobby. Despite some criticism I praise everyone who tries to bring something to the table and you are one of them, both if you are right or wrong. I am one of those people who have a certain ignorance on the topic and every content that can teach me something has a great value for me. For example, I never heard talking about damping factor and output impedance before.
After this premise, since I have read that you own a Sound Blasterx G6, I would like to know if it can drive properly a DT880 quality wise. In particular, can it drive the 600 ohm version volume wise and quality wise? I have already the 250 ohm version that I drive with the G6 and for me, at 50/60% windows volume on high gain, is already very loud. I never go beyond that. Since I am still in the return period, I was wondering to if it was worth return the 250 ohm and buy the 600 ohm instead since it is considered better than the 250 ohm version.
Thank you for your attention.
Hi. No the G6 simply cannot properly drive the 600 ohm version. Even at max volume the headphones have loose bass and overall muddy presentation
@@NoThemeReviews I learnt from your video that the 600 ohm version need an amp with an output impedance closest to 75 ohm as possible to shine (considering 1/8 damping factor) but I was wondering if G6 had at least enough power for the dt880 since it costs more or less as a liquid spark or a magni heresy and I can't find any info on creative's website and manual. Gladly I have seen your video. Thank you for your answer.
@@carminedilello3764 No, I don't think the G6 really is able to get the 880 loud enough, at least not for me.
@@NoThemeReviews time to get the liquid spark or magni heresy then (something under the 200 price bracket). Or I should just keep the 250 ohm version for the moment. I don't know if the differences between the 250 ohm and 600 ohm versions are so large to justify a new amp.
I have both. I don’t think the differences are significant. Tyll Hertsens from Innerfidelity said the same thing years ago when he compared all the 880 variants.
The Cayin iHA-6 has 200mW/ch at 600 ohms in low current mode and 90mW/ch at 600 ohms in high current mode (both single ended). Source: post #387 in the iHA-6 thread on Head-fi has a chart of the iHA-6's power output in its various modes at various impedance loads.
I've been using the 600 ohm 880's with a Violectric V280 (which, if the V200's SE output is indicative of the V280's SE output, it should be around 570mW, and an output impedance of less than 1 ohm). While I don't have a cacophony of amps to test it with as you did (except for a Scarlett Solo, which predictably has a difficult time), but I'm definitely getting that rolled-low end sound you described; lots of slam, and not a whole lot of deficiencies elsewhere in the sound, but definitely a recessed sub-bass. While overall I do think the pairing does sound good, I'm curious to try it with something with a higher output impedance. As for what you said about Zeos, I would say you're having a mild overreaction (unless that was just a way to boost engagement, in which case, you're doing a great job!), and I would ascribe this to more of an "Occam's razor" situation. I think he just legitimately didn't even consider that output impedance could be at play, he just noticed that big strong amp power headphon well, and smol tiny 789 couldn't.
That certainly could be an explanation for Zeos. It makes sense. I know my attitude about Zeos comes off brutish but I’m frustrated people keep giving him a pass for his nonsense. He has much influence and is popular enough that should be want to talk to a manufacturer he would have an easy time of it. Why he couldn’t just contact Beyer and ask is beyond me.
Apollo twin mk ii and x output 85mw at 600 OHM, BD recommended max of 100ma. So this is a match made in heaven? yet so many reviewers suggest getting a separate amp. Does this make sense?
It doesn’t make sense for reviewers to treat a specialty headphone like the DT880 as any normal one. Although amplification does help many headphones, as I’ve explained in this video and through numerous subsequent tests, the 880 needs high output impedance. Reviewers should spend more time researching instead of regurgitating to hat they’ve heard from others.
Thank you, finally someone who understood the point AND also pointed it out properly.
Thanks
I hope it's not too late to ask but how would the DT 880 600 Ohm work with the iFi Zen? Or would you rather recommend using the 250 Ohm version with this DAC/Amp?
I can confirm it does in fact work with the Zen Dac. But you'll have to nearly max out the volume. The sound signature is a bit muffled and the soundstage is narrower than compared to the 789.
It sucks on the ifi zen. Hook a loxjie p20 up to the zen with upgraded power supplies and tubes, and you’re cooking with grease
which one did you end going with? 600 or 250? I have the same amp and also have been wondering which one will sound better.
Hello, great vídeo thanks for this. I have a question, i have the smsl sp200 and the m200, do you try with sp200? Thanks and continues a good work 👍
Hi. I don't have the SP200 and cannot comment on its performance specifically. However, the SP200 has the same power output in SE as it does in balanced. I believe the output impedance is about 0 ohms. So...I think it will likely fall in line with the solid state amps I tested.
No Theme Reviews sorry for my incompetence, when you tell the “SE” what is it?
Single ended 1/4” output
No Theme Reviews thanks
I have an sp200, i can tell that the amp has a lot of headroom in therm of power but this headphones need high voltage, something sounds very detailed something don't, bass can get very muddy at sustained volumes and can distort the rest of the frequencies. Even more headroom would be good if you don't have very high voltages like in an speaker amp.
I also hate the metal plate on the grey ones....but i can't find any 600ohm black dt880 new...the used one are ridiculously high in price....
Hope I am not out of line with an unrelated question to this video - but am curious of your recommendation for a pad change for the Base Audio G12
Naw. Ask whatever you want. I suggest the official Grado G-Cush pads that fit the GS series. You don’t need to adapt anything. The pads are interchangeable. I’ve tried cheaper knockoffs that simply aren’t as comfy as the Grado
@@NoThemeReviews Huge thanks sir - keep up the good fight - have enjoyed your thorough and classy presentations!
Can you just tell me that "Can I use (benefit dt880's potential) this 600 ohm headphone with creative sound blaster zx soundcard without any amp? "Because creative says the sb z and zx is compatible up to 600 ohm headphones, but unfortunately there is not enough info in creative's official product website about the headphone amp values.
No, these sound cards are not designed to work with headphones like this DT880. The sound blaster is a consumer-level sound card. I'm sure it can drive 600 ohm headphones, but it doesn't have the required output impedance for this specific headphone.
Just received dt 880 600 ohm edition in gray color, just out of the box they sound compressed and bass shy, sound will improve after burn in? I'm currently powering them with Asgard 3 and Aune x8 dac. DT 770 250 ohm and DT 990 250 ohm sounds great on this combo, but 880 sounds a bit shy:) currently monitoring ebay for A20, is it worth buying in comparison to Asgard 3 for 880? Midrange sounds great, highs i like too, but bass region is too shy, i'm not a basshead, but i think lower region is not which i like.
What is the best sounding amp for DT 880 600 ohm, without budget limits, simply the best ;) ?
I uploaded a video about burn-in regarding the Dan Clark Aeon 2. You may want to watch that. Burn-in has never been proven effective. Any reliable tests conducted show that burn-in does nothing.
As I mentioned in this video, the 600 ohm variant of the 880 needs high output impedance. The Asgard has OI of less than 0.2 ohms, which is simply insufficient.
I can't tell you what the "best" amp is with this headphone. All I can say is what I think are the appropriate specifications for proper amp/headphone matching. IMO, the A2 and A20 are equally good. The Sound Devices HX-3 is also an excellent option. The Cayin Ha-1A Mk2 and iHa-2 are also great pairings.
@@NoThemeReviews Thank you for detailed and soon answer, i will get A20 then:) Do you have buzzing noise in A20? A lot of people says there is noises in this amp?
@@andjeyvolikov3508 Nope, I've never heard a noise from it. I know there are some older Amazon reviews about the build. Like with all audio gear, there will be lemons.
@@NoThemeReviews Pulled the trigger for beyer A1 amp, hope i will like it:)
Can you let me know if you’re ever selling these? I can’t find them anywhere
Are the black edition not 250 ohm only? Let me know if otherwise, as I'd be interested in the 600ohm black version.
No. They are also in 600 ohm. The Amazon link in the description gives an option for both grey and black in 600 ohm. There are very few black versions. I was lucky and found a refurbished set on Amazon. If you keep looking, you might find them. Amazon’s search engine is pretty dumb. Go through Google instead.
Yeah you need amp with high output impedance with 600 ohm Beyers. Thats why many like them with tube amps, cause tube amps typically have very high output impedance and also perform very well with high impedance headphones. Feliks-audio echo mk2 would be a great pairing with any 600 ohm Beyerdynamic.
The dac he used can have variable output voltage, he used it so it may be confusing unless you knew that. And I can recc powerful speaker amps for some use cases due to how they handle negative feedback to dampen lower frequencies. It prob sounded best to Zeos on that amp due to the 220ohm output impedance as well so as long as you don't overdrive them it's fine. Thanks for this video! I'm curious if 300ohm would be too much for the 880. Will have to find out lol
No, I didn't know. I never jumped on the Geshelli band wagon.
Do you think that there’s better alternative for the 250 ohm than the Zen Dac? I’m testing the DT 880 and the Zen Dac but the headphones is heavily pushing the zen dac with power matching. Should I go for the Liquid Spark or maybe JDS Atom?
The Zen Dac easily drives the HD6xx, which is 300 ohms, so it really shouldn't have a problem with 250ohm DT880. But, if you want more power, then the Liquid Spark is a good option.
@@NoThemeReviews I think you’re taking about the balanced 4.4mm right? Because the Zen DAC is 13mW at 300 Ohm and the Zen CAN 161mW at 300 Ohm, single ended, and I don’t think the Dacs enough. I need to have the gain on and the knob turned all the way up for the volume to be just right, but the knob completely turned up makes the dac struggle with the control of the sound. I’m thinking about stacking it with the can, but if I’m upgrading I thought about getting the 600ohm, but it’s not a big difference between the 250 and the 600, but in terms of sound gear it could cost me north of 350USD to get something that powers them up, so I don’t know…
@@Fjaelyep There's really not much of a difference between the 250 and 600 ohm. If you buy the 600 ohm variant, you should just get a cheap amp with an output impedance of 100 ohms, because that's what you'll need.
Is there anyone here who uses the Topping DX3Pro+ with the DT880 600Ohm? I'm interested in this DAC/Amp, just not sure if it can drives the DT880 600Ohm.
I just find the 880 to niche seems like one to get for cheap once u have alot of gear to play with glad you made it simpler for people. Also if you see this how do you feel about idac 6?
It’s fine. They call it a reference dac, and maybe that’s true. But, honestly, I think I’d be equally as satisfied with just the El Dac. I’ve learned the more you pay for a Dac, the more you have to convince yourself the price is justified. If you want a very well built Dac with plenty of connection options and a clean, neutral sound, then the iDac is great.
Will the Monolith THX Headphone AMP/DAC drive these?
Hey, I have noticed ifi zen dac in your video and this is something that I've got my eye on it. Will it run 880 600Ohm?
Not well. The Zen Dac is best with 300 ohm at most. Also, that version of the 880 needs high output impedance, which the Zen Dac does not have.
@@NoThemeReviews what if I will pair it with ifi can or maybe better option will be modi/magni or a mix like modi+can?
Hi there. My personal findings:
I tried the 250 and the 600 ohms on my PC Motherboard. The 600 was clearly better for my taste.
This is what the MB said:
„SupremeFX-S1220-Codec, einen ESS® Saber Hi-Fi ES9023P Digital-Analog-Wandler für eine hervorragende Wiedergabe am Frontpanel sowie einen Texas Instruments® RC4580 OP-Verstärker mit hoher Verstärkungsleistung“
As I tried to get the best out of the 880/600 i bought the Fiio K7 DAC/AMP.
The loudness is a tiny bit higher. Sound quality is nearly identical. Somehow i like the MB DAC little more. It is more crisp. So I used the MB DAC with optical cable and the K7 only as an AMP. Same result. Sounds great.
So I am wondering if i had just bought some AMP. The K7 I calculated is at 75mW at 600 Ohms. You saying is, it won’t work better on an more powerful amp, which can deliver the rated 100mW? So I can stick with the K7 and be happy?
The issue for this particular headphone the 100 ohm output impedance from the amp. There are some very affordable amps that meet this requirement, and the K7 is not really a cost effective tool for this.
@@NoThemeReviews well, thank you very much for that fast reply. I will reconsider my choice.
But there is one option left (maybe): The K7 is balanced, i can’t use the dt880 only unbalance. Do you think it would be a good idea to modify them? That means much more power from the K7 in balanced mode on one side, and maybe even a better sound without the need to get a higher output impedance? Could that be an option?
If you’re going to keep the K7 then yes that is an option
Funnily enough, I have a very close setup to yours, and also, I too preferred the S1220 codec very slightly over the FiiO k7. I have watched another one of his videos recommending a cheap "Samson Audio S.Amp" which I found for £20 on eBay (this is talked about on one of his videos regarding powering the 880 600 ohm).
I am in 2 minds about keeping the FiiO k7 as the DAC, and using the Samson S.Amp as the amplifier. Or, using the PC motherboard S1220 as the dac, and the S.Amp as the amp. What did you settle for in the end?
@@hunterjg777 Hi Hunter. I took a phone call to Beyerdynamic and asked them for this issue. They told me an amp with the same impedance as the headphones in general will deliver most power. BUT they also told me, 75mW is already fine and i would not loose any quality in sound. As I was still curious I bought the AKG701, which was around 130 bucks. They have 60 Ohms so i could do a comparison with onboard sound without any questions about power. I can definitely confirm the power is enough with onboard as Beyerdynamic told me, which is awesome for that tiny onboard chip. I don’t know why, but i begun to love the K7 with the AKG despite a little less bass. After two weeks, the AKG sounded even better (I think every new headphone need some time to adjust and work as intended)
I also liked very much the switch of the K7 to change sound output to my desktop speakers without switching cables and using the volume knob. So.. funny ending for me, I kept that combination.
For the S1220 you should install the Realtek drivers, go into Realtek console and check if „high impedance/high gain“ is selected. If you do, you don’t need an external amp.
How about running the 880 from the ADI 2? I currently use LCD-2C with my ADI 2 DAC and have been thinking of trying the 880 600ohm. Do they sound decent?
Well..."decent" is subjective. Yes, the 880 sounds fine with all the amps I tested; and it sounds fine with the RME. Given the two sound profile options I spoke of, I would prefer the one that comes from higher output impedance. But, as I said in the review, you can still very much enjoy the 880 from other amps. In fact, I paired the 880 to the WA7 (1 ohm output impedance) and it sounded really pleasant. Bottom line is this: you don't need tremendous amplification for the 880. Different output impedances will provide a different driver reaction. Other than the 1Amp, all the other amps I tested work just fine with the 880.
@@NoThemeReviews Alright thanks for replying!
19:47 💪🏻🔥 So right
Hey, is this DT 880 special edtition only 250 ohm? I cant find the 600 ohm special efirion online.
No there was a 600 ohm variant as well. It’s hard to find it now but they pop up from time to time.
Does that mean my $90 XDuoo TA-05 hybrid tube amp would drive these cans just fine?
I don't think power will be the issue; xDuoo doesn't publish the output impedance, so that's an unknown. But, OTL amps have much higher output impedance than solid state amps. I don't have the TA-05 so I can't say how it performs with the 880.
Sounds about right, I think. I don't understand why others can't just look at the headphone specs and email beyer about this. I did and was told their 600ohm headphones need more output impedance.
You don't need lots of Watts. You need lots of clean current.
The Rupert Neve RNHP will definitely drive the dt 880 600ohm. Maybe not enough gain, but this also depends on the source signal (4 volt or 2 volt).
My vintage stereo receiver is only 40 Watt. But it delivers enough current to drive inefficient speakers.
My Dragonfly Black should drive every IEM. But multi balanced armature IEM will sound very thin on the Dragonfly Black. Even when set very loud. A proper yet small amplifier will drive IEM much better at lower volumes.
I’ve thought about that. I can’t seem to find a 4v Dac. Do you know of an affordable option?
What's affordable?
Schiit Modius is 200 dollars US. Even Chinese dac like the SMSL M300 MKII are priced similar.
Edit
- Geshelli labs JNOG
Would this sound good on a fiio e10k? If not, what small dac/amo could make them sound good?
No absolutely not. You need significantly higher output impedance and more power than the e10k provides. There is no portable Dac/amp that can drive the 600 ohm variant.
I’m sure my Heresy can drive them, but will they be able to bring out the full potential of sound quality of the dt 880 600ohm?
Nope
@@NoThemeReviews should I opt for the 250 ohm version then? From what i’ve gathered there isn’t that much of a difference correct?
Yes the 250 ohm version is a far better option than spending money and effort finding the right amp for the 600 ohm version.
@@NoThemeReviews awesome thx for the help, and I rlly appreciate the work you do. keep it up!
On a separate note, I wonder if it would be feasible for you to create a list of your recommended products (with a small blurb about the specifics of each unit) for us to reference? This could be updated as you hear new units, and separated into categories like "amps, dacs, amp-dacs" and "under $200, under $500, under $1000, above $1000" as needed?
I could. My concern is that it is taken the wrong way. I don't want to have a monthly or quarterly "best of" list, especially if it is subject to change. I think that causes confusion, and might bias me towards upholding an older list. I did something similar for the end of 2019. I plan on that again this year. I probably will expand on the list this year and provide more sub-categories.
Of course, you're always welcome to ask and discuss here, my email, or Patreon.
As a huge fan of Zeos, I love this video and I honestly thank you for making it!
Edit* Thank you for answering all these people and by extension my own question!
Why would you like it? I'm a huge fan of zeos as well, and this guy just BERATED him on his channel. Not exactly the way to increase your subscribers.
thank you for the review, i think i needed this years ago before i bought my dt8080 edition 600R. I love them but the only device i can really use them is my RME Babyface Pro. Its moderate loud but the output impedance is 10 Ohm. And actually it sound clear but I think i got some issues with the bass. cant really tell. I shoot today the Bayerdynamic A20 on ebay for 250.. I will give my opinion how it performs all together RME->A20=>DT880 and RME vs A20.
What’s the best headphone for recording and mixing what do you recommend
I’m no mixing or mastering artist. All I can say is if you want neutral, then Ollo headphones are the place to go. If you want super analytical with cost not being an option, then the Focal Clear and HD800s. But, honestly, everybody in the industry uses speakers. Headphones for such work are useful but not nearly as important as Audeze, Beyer, AT and every reviewer makes them out to be. If you read articles by producers, you’ll notice they say they use headphones to dial in a particular sound and use monitors the vast majority of the time. And a lot of producer will use simple $200 headphones.
No Theme Reviews thank you I appreciate it I found your videos very helpful especially when a lot of reviewers hype up a lot of the headphones
Firstly Zeos is going to love this🙈 apart from that I’m loving your review as I recently purchased a brand new unused pair of the original DT880 600ohm (with the Horns) and found my FX DAC X6 which I also have the FX Tube 03 linked to Drives them no problem. My THXAAA789 also running through the FX DAC and Tube 03 Buffer is Superb and again drives them effortlessly.So yes your right they do not need Nuclear power to drive them,I must note that I did Burn the DT880’s in for 2 Solid Days being New and noticed a huge sound difference from straight out of the Box👍🎧 Keep up the Good reviews as your thorough and always on the Mark.Well Done Sir.👏👏👏👏
Haha thanks! You're probably the 100th person who has confirmed the 600 ohm version works just fine with modest amps.
Yes, Zeos is crazy with his power recommendations. Don't know why he is doing that.
But clearly audible sound changes due to burn in is a myth, at least with traditional dynamic drivers as beyerdynamic is using them within this headphone. You can even read this on their f.a q page. Just psychological but if it works for you ;)
Lol. I can psychologically understand the argument for burn in for headphones. I just can’t hear it. The funniest burn in rec I’ve ever read is from AQ. Their manual said to burn in their headphones for AT LEAST 150 hours. I laughed so hard.
Power is Def needed compared to my other headphones but I think the type of amp is more important. Having a good clean class a amp does wonders for it. Maybe even something tilted a bit warm for my taste anyway
So you would recommend this for a liquid spark?
No. The 250ohm variant is a better fit
Big like for this. And big respect for your videos. But Tyll Hertsens in his blog did not say things in favor of your findings. He basically said the higher damping the better (DT 880 600ohm included). U said the damping factor should be in the specific range. So where is the truth?
I think I linked to a number of articles in the description section. You may want to read those.
@@NoThemeReviews in the description of this video? I cant find anything... but i think somebody answered also this question already in the comments section. I will read that.
I don't know man. Output impedance is like eq in your situation which is not desired. Generally higher the damping is the better. You may like the coloration with the high output impedance amps thats different. DT 880 600ohm 96 db sensitivity it requires high voltage swing and power and low healthy output impedance.
That’s the traditional argument for the majority of headphones. This does NOT apply to the Beyer’s. I’ve confirmed this from Beyer directly, read as much on Innferfidelity’s various articles discussing both output impedance and the Beyer’s, and reviewing numerous other articles that discuss output impedance in general. I hope I made it clear in the video a high damping factor is preferred in most situations. I believe that to be true after my research and testing. But all articles I’ve read clearly say there are situations when higher output impedance is necessary. This is a confusing subject with various viewpoints, but I subscribe to the Occam’s Razor reasoning when such situations arise. I could be wrong, but all indications say otherwise. And those who propose alternative hypotheses either 1) haven’t actually done any tests to verify their beliefs, or 2) they generally tested but did not eliminate the impedance possibility. Voltage swing and slew rate is all fine and good, but you’d have to test each and every amp to determine if that is actually the case. And so far, I don’t know if any tests on headphone amps that have published results. Maybe you’re right or we’re both right or we’re both wrong. If you can get Beyer to acknowledge it’s slew rate and voltage or greater amplification, I’ll amend my conclusion. But until then, we must carry on.
@@NoThemeReviews Do the same video with 250 ohm Beyers. Beyerdynamic is a bit outlier company so i expect some weird stuff :) How about T1 btw it's 600 ohm too. Oddly Beyer's 600 ohm headphones are all consumer ''audiophile'' targeted. Their studio headphones are 250 ohm.
I’ve contacted folks asking them to hold an Emotiva BasX A-100 for me-specifically to run the 880s in particular, and similar cans in general-and now, after watching your *entire* vid, I *seriously* don’t know what to do. I am a disabled veteran and I am new to all of this. Should the A20 beyerdynamic amp work well with other “hard to drive” cans, as I expected the BasX to? Or are the A2 and A20 built more for beyerdynamic headphones? Thanks a bunch!
I don’t think you should grab the Emotiva. It’s overkill and the risk of destroying your drivers is too great. The A2 has switchable output impedance and can handle both low and high impedance headphones. The A20 should be limited to high impedance headphones.
@@NoThemeReviews without jumpers, it's nowhere close to destroying your headphones. It's called "Page 11 MOD" in Emotiva's manual.