The hypermedia revival is refreshing. The goal is to make things as simple as possible for 90% of the use cases. We should stop jumping into complexity abysses just because the abyss is there.
The whole separation of concerns in web development has been a misadventure into self oblivion and insanity. Locality of behavior is the return logic and sanity. Rejoice... We are about to emerge from the Dark Age of web development and stepping into the light of Renaissance Age with HTMX and HyperScript.
@@FirdausAziz how old are you? you sound young because you are talking nonsense. this mindset of having a "Renaissance Age" is what created the whole mess to begin with. The mess comes from trying to use stuff for what it wasn't meant to be, like hypermedia for applications, or OOP in JavaScript. HTMX is going to become yet another mess because the main problem is that once that people do the change back to simplicity, people start to make the simple thing complex and more complex because they try to reuse the same hammer for new screws. back in 1990 html was invented because "sgml is too complicated" then netscape made it more complicated and then added javascript and made the whole complicated DOM because it wanted to interact with java, java would do the difficult to make components and then js would be the glue, Sun never delivered and left the DOM complexity in the browser. PHP was invented as a templating engine? then people abuse it and made a full programming language out of it. with PHP many people tried to make the same thing that htmx tries to do represent data with hypermedia. then XML was invented. when XML was invented they tried to make it simpler than SGML once again, with all the changes they made it even more complicated than SGML. with Javascript? they wanted a simpler java, now we have a more complicated java. with jQuery? people wanted it to make js more simple, then they make it more complicated giving raise to React. then with React, it is so simple at the beginning that they sold it as "you can use it for just one component to start with your app written in jQuery" htmx is just the next fad for the majority of idiots.
Wow! Pure elegance and foundational progress. So nicely explained. For a beginner in frontend dev like me, first 20min (4 generalizations) are worth listening again and again.
htmx is cool and all, but it *is* JS. who wants to bet on how long it will take Microsquish to make something similar, name it after the generic concept (MS Hypermedia, there you go), and they'll make it "backwards compatible" so something like... htmxml
I don't see it. HTMX is mostly a reminder that you don't need anything but standard web tech to do most things. No vdom, no build system, no compiler, no framework. Just a small js lib, html attributes, fetch, dom updates and an OG web philosophy. Plus, MS built the foundation for this 25yrs ago with XMLHTTPRequest which was a nice gift from the Deathstar.
Is it not your job to protect your codebase from complexity explosion? And choose the tools that help you achieve this? Why do you blame other devs for your failings?
You're not wrong in saying that it's yet another hype wave. The only thing I can say is that this one smells different to me; none of the others have seemed aimed at bringing sanity to the table, whereas this project explicitly sets out to do so (or so it seems to me). I'm optimistic, and I will give it a go. Willingly, unlike anything in the past.
@@herrpezI’m the same. HTMX was the only thing that sparked excitement in me to use. Not even svelte did that to that degree. Combine it with alpine for client side logic and any backend framework, it really looks like we could write a lot less code
Ironically, there will be some people who go too hard in the opposite direction and do something like use htmx when React would've been a better choice. For now, I welcome the pushback against using React for basic ass CRUD apps just to poop out an SPA
I’m a simple hypermedia man, I see HTMX man and then I subscribe
The hypermedia revival is refreshing. The goal is to make things as simple as possible for 90% of the use cases. We should stop jumping into complexity abysses just because the abyss is there.
The whole separation of concerns in web development has been a misadventure into self oblivion and insanity. Locality of behavior is the return logic and sanity. Rejoice... We are about to emerge from the Dark Age of web development and stepping into the light of Renaissance Age with HTMX and HyperScript.
@@FirdausAziz how old are you? you sound young because you are talking nonsense. this mindset of having a "Renaissance Age" is what created the whole mess to begin with. The mess comes from trying to use stuff for what it wasn't meant to be, like hypermedia for applications, or OOP in JavaScript. HTMX is going to become yet another mess because the main problem is that once that people do the change back to simplicity, people start to make the simple thing complex and more complex because they try to reuse the same hammer for new screws.
back in 1990 html was invented because "sgml is too complicated"
then netscape made it more complicated and then added javascript and made the whole complicated DOM because it wanted to interact with java, java would do the difficult to make components and then js would be the glue, Sun never delivered and left the DOM complexity in the browser.
PHP was invented as a templating engine? then people abuse it and made a full programming language out of it.
with PHP many people tried to make the same thing that htmx tries to do represent data with hypermedia. then XML was invented.
when XML was invented they tried to make it simpler than SGML once again, with all the changes they made it even more complicated than SGML.
with Javascript? they wanted a simpler java, now we have a more complicated java.
with jQuery? people wanted it to make js more simple, then they make it more complicated giving raise to React.
then with React, it is so simple at the beginning that they sold it as "you can use it for just one component to start with your app written in jQuery"
htmx is just the next fad for the majority of idiots.
@@laughingvampire7555what solution do you propose to clean up this mess then? Since all you are saying is "there be dragons!"
@@laughingvampire7555 you sound a little bit misinformed, React didn't rise because jquery was complex.
@@thelvadam5269 And what will that solve?
Great talk! Especially the delivery when considering all the distractions going on in the background.
Useful links around HTMx:
- Book "Hypermedia Systems" hypermedia.systems/
- HTMx in 100 seconds (@Fireship): ruclips.net/video/r-GSGH2RxJs/видео.html
- Essays: htmx.org/essays
Wow! Pure elegance and foundational progress. So nicely explained. For a beginner in frontend dev like me, first 20min (4 generalizations) are worth listening again and again.
I really like this. I hope it keeps taking off. Htmx is the way
Awesome! My kind of oldSchool Programmer! Thank you Carson. 🌟 #%^D
10/10
5 mn explaination and lots of chatter, thanks
HTMX is the key to a healthier web without all this fat JS clients nonsense and underlying tooling nightmare.
web hypetrends are back
htmx still JS
WHAAAAAT!?!? 🤯🤯🤯🤯🧠
if we are looking to augment html, then web components already give us that.
htmx is cool and all, but it *is* JS. who wants to bet on how long it will take Microsquish to make something similar, name it after the generic concept (MS Hypermedia, there you go), and they'll make it "backwards compatible" so something like... htmxml
I don't see it. HTMX is mostly a reminder that you don't need anything but standard web tech to do most things. No vdom, no build system, no compiler, no framework. Just a small js lib, html attributes, fetch, dom updates and an OG web philosophy.
Plus, MS built the foundation for this 25yrs ago with XMLHTTPRequest which was a nice gift from the Deathstar.
??? This isn't the 90s, Macrohard's interweb exploder is gone, and their new browser is just chromium. They're not EEEing browsers anytime soon
yet another hype wave around simplicity that will become overblown because developers are too stupid to understand that not everything is a nail.
Is it not your job to protect your codebase from complexity explosion? And choose the tools that help you achieve this? Why do you blame other devs for your failings?
You're not wrong in saying that it's yet another hype wave. The only thing I can say is that this one smells different to me; none of the others have seemed aimed at bringing sanity to the table, whereas this project explicitly sets out to do so (or so it seems to me). I'm optimistic, and I will give it a go. Willingly, unlike anything in the past.
@@herrpezI’m the same. HTMX was the only thing that sparked excitement in me to use. Not even svelte did that to that degree. Combine it with alpine for client side logic and any backend framework, it really looks like we could write a lot less code
Not to mention the workflow makes complete sense to me. hx-trigger and hx-target…beautiful
Ironically, there will be some people who go too hard in the opposite direction and do something like use htmx when React would've been a better choice. For now, I welcome the pushback against using React for basic ass CRUD apps just to poop out an SPA