Action Games Shine Where Souls Games Don't : Skill Vs Self Expression - Part 1?
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- Опубликовано: 11 окт 2023
- my first video essay! be gentle I'm new to this 😂
#eldenring
#soulsborne
#soulsbornecommunity
#devilmaycry5
#devilmaycry
#malenia
#vergildmc
#gaspedal
#persona5
#sonicthehedgehog
#ludacris 
Игры
that's what I always say, you play around the enemy in souls series, but in DMC, you are as strong as the enemy. You can easily beat every single enemy if you know your character well. Souls series require you to know the enemy. DMC requires you to know your character. And there's Monster Hunter series, where it requires you to know your character but also the monster you're fighting.
I was discussing monster hunter with my squad and once I get my thoughts down better I wanted to add it into the discussion because like you said it's balance of both. And there's also a team aspect to it as well that adds to its own depth. Thank you for this comment!
Souls-like: play around the enemies, exploiting their openings
DMC: playing with the enemies, go ham or taunt them after every attack, your choice, because the party's getting crazy!
Just break every goddamn bone inside of the monster until is dead.
Or drink an unhealthy amount of honey to stay alive.
There's also nioh 2 which manages to mix both of the elements as a progression of stats and player skill. Early games feel more like soulslikes but after mastering ki pulse and unlocking several weapon skills and mastering ki pulse and stances, it becomes more like dmc or Ninja Gaiden.
@@whyamistillhere3258or let your fellow hunters carry you lmao
Soulsbornes: "What the fuck is that"
DMC: "What the fuck am I"
Monster Hunter: "What the fuck is"
The transition into meteor herd for Dantes devil trigger felt so satisfying
This whole video was an excuse for me to do that 😂 JK. But forreal thank you! I really wanna try more stuff like that. Thank you for watching!
@@francoiscarriere152I understand 😂
Try playing Ninja Gaiden, Bayonetta, God Hand, or Nioh 2. I think having a range of experience can show better what the strengths and weaknesses of each game is.
Souls games emphasize neutral more than DMC. DMC emphasizes combos and tech.
Most definitely! There will be other videos! I appreciate this comment so much. We are on the same page :)
Nioh is so good.
@@theatheistbear3117 It's the best souls game.
@@evilagram Truth.
@@evilagram in terms of gameplay absolutely you aint neva lie
You clearly expressed something that I’ve been thinking but unable to explain for a long time. Maybe this will finally convince my brother to play DMC lol
I'm glad I was able to help you! It took awhile for me to get those words across without sounding like an elitist and even then I think I fumbled somewhere 😂 but imma keep going. Hope your brother does give DMC a shot
If you haven't already, perhaps show them the widespread I am the Storm That is Approaching (aka THE Vergil Combo) video by SunnhiLegend. Maybe ask them to listen to Bury the Light; good luck.
@@francoiscarriere152nah you are making good points and you aren't trying to shit on elden ring. I want to play DMC 5. I love 1 and 3.
Souls players: -Hold my NO Damage, base HP, no upgrade, NG+...
DMC players: -Hold my STYLISH MOVES
Btw, this is a joke, don't take it too far.
Also DMC players: -hold my royalguard only
Lol joke taken! I appreciate it!
@@thonato.Gwhy hold it when you can Royal Release it?
@@zakkymiftahurrahman1665 I meant that "hold" as in like "hey I can do this while yall can't"
@thonato295 nah, I was just joking too. I understood your previous reply.
My biggest problem with triple A games like God of War Ragnarock or even Spider-Man 2 is how little they actually make you feel like a god or a super-powered man. Compared to games like Ultrakill, DMC, Web of Shadows, and other "power fantasy" games let you be as expressive as you want in combat
Hell even the Batman Arkham games give you more versatility with gadgets to use in combat.
You can actually be very expressive in God of war Ragnarok, even somewhat in Spider-Man but not nearly as much. GowR has a ton of combo potential and some animation cancelling.
That said GowR isn't really a power fantasy and I think they want you to not feel overpowered. Kratos is holding back at all times now so I think it's intentional that they want it to feel more like a challenge or struggle
yeah, for example a GOW soulslike would not make sense, cuz in soulslikes you tend to be weaker than the enemy, which makes no sense in this context.
@@thetoyodacar2264 black myth wukong is basically that, it's closer to gow in gameplay but has some souls elements
what's the point in being powerful if that expression never happens, cuz the the game suks? I went in after all the praise, but I met a game that was narratively convoluted, Mehchanically inapprochable and technically compromised. The only upside is seeing Vergil smile. but man, this put capcom in even a deeper hole than it already was.
*Nioh* is basically what you get when you combine Stylish Action games with Souls-likes.
Very true. I kinda wanna add wo long to that discussion, because it kinda got slept on
@@francoiscarriere152 I think it’s more that people just found the game very underwhelming.
@@francoiscarriere152I found Wo Long kinda mid when I went through it. Not as good as Nioh 2. Not sure how good the DLC's are though.
Thymesia has amazing combat..but is terribly underrated
Nioh 2 is the perfect blend between soulslike and hack and slash action games. With it's multiple weapon types, spells, items, jutsu cancelling, ki pulse cancelling, and even DEEPER BUILD VARIETY that can allow the player to smack and combo the enemy senseless (when they're zero ki) 😩👌
Its just not fun when you get Stun locked in Nioh 2 jeez
Nioh 2 is awesome.
@@theatheistbear3117 HELL YEAHHH
Yeah I ended my build with an A weight, A poise set up which was a pain in the ass to get. Game was much more fun not getting stunlocked.
I hope this video essay gets finished blows the fuck up just so people might finally understand that good and hard combat in videogames dont have to mean we gotta be making the playeable character weigh 5 tons and be crippled 😭😭😭
Like, imagine having enemies that cannot be interacted with in any meaningful way and you gotta take turns waiting for them while being still, not my devil trigger having ass 💀
Thank you so much! Imma do my best! I got a lot to say and a lot to edit! We got this boss!
Who even shits on dmc combat anyway? its hack n slash its gameplay is popular for a reason the same with souls both are incredibly fun in their own way souls is methodical, dmc bayonetta etc are mainly focused on how you master your player character and beat the every living shit out of your enemy with combos.
Awesome start! With souls combat being such a focus and comparative standard for many action titles, discussions about the differences in gameplay style between games like Souls and games like DMC are more important! I love seeing a well thought out take that looks deeper into both of them, looking forward to more!
Thank you so much! Sorry I'm so late to reply to this. Real life is still happening on my end and I'm sure yours too! But imma do my best to be objective but still express my thoughts. Thank you again!
A big difference between their combat that i think is crucial to point out is poise. In Souls games enemies rarely budge at all as though they've been hit by a toothpick. Until it's too many toothpick injuries that they finally falter. But in DMC they faulter a lot more so you're able to go to town on them easier.
Man DMC 5 is chock full of cool shit I mean come on look at 5:43 during the slow mo you can see parts of vergil's body gradually turning into his demon form while summoning his doppelganger. The transformation effect is so well done it still looks smooth while in slow mo, in other games you can see another model pop up to replace the original one and they add effects to hide the transition when they do any transformation
Yooo Ur right
real good video! understands a good point that doesn't put down either game
one thing that this makes me think of is that in the Souls games, your builds actually get to express themselves a lot more outside of boss fights. the way you handle encounters in the "levels" varies a lot more thanks to being able to approach them on your own terms more effectively. I honestly think traversing regular areas in these games tends to be more interesting and fun than boss fights because of it.
also the editing style and jokes were on point and right up my alley lol. subscribed!
Thank you so much! Im a huge advocate of letting your favorite things shine without needing to take a dump on others favorite things. Thank you for taking time to even watch. I'm new to this RUclips stuff but I got a ton to say and hopefully it lands more than it doesn't.
I agree, my attrition style of play really works for the overworld. I use bows to draw out enemies too. Let's me go real long not worrying about my next bonfire or grace!
That said, Devil may Cry isn't actually different than Souls games almost at all. It's just on a lower difficulty. The comparative difficulty of your initial normal mode in a game of Devil may Cry is quite easy. Unless we're talking about DMC1, in which case OPs point falls apart. Many people died on bosses and struggled with 1. I wish they used more examples than Devil May Cry because it kind of creates a weak argument about "Action" games when you only have 1 example.
To further emphasize my own point, I'll repeat what I said to another user "snipercomrade3059"
> I mean, did you defeat Urizen first try? You can, but probably not, right? Then you were relieved when you learned you were "supposed" to lose. What if Souls bosses were like that? Ah, I was supposed to lose. Well, trick is, you kind of were. It's the embedded ideal of the game.
> Maybe the next one wait until mods allow you to unlock all difficulty settings on the first run, do the hardest (but not gimmicky ones like 1 hits) one, and let me know if you feel the same way.
Also I realize I am using Reddit formatting and RUclips doesn't do that but I'm doing to help show where the quote is.
This is something I've been thinking about for a while, and I'm glad to see your perspective. As someone who has completed Sekiro and Elden ring countless times, it feels like the grandiose aspect of a fight comes down to learning the boss and getting better at counter and counterattack opportunities. However, fights tend to get a bit stale over time as once you reach a certain skill level, there isn't much the player can do to take their "play" to a higher and more complex degree. The combat often feels very simple and due to the clear focus on countering, there isn't much room for the player to express themselves and challenge the boss as much as the boss challenges the player.
Eh, Devil May Cry is the same way, it's just on a lower difficulty setting.
Maybe the next one wait until mods allow you to unlock all difficulty settings on the first run, do the hardest (but not gimmicky ones like 1 hits) one, and let me know if you feel the same way.
I mean, did you defeat Urizen first try? You can, but probably not, right? Then you were relieved when you learned you were "supposed" to lose. What if Souls bosses were like that? Ah, I was supposed to lose. Well, trick is, you kind of were. It's the embedded ideal of the game.
@@RuneKatashimaHow is it the same way?
If you wanna talk about a Fromsoft Souls-like that absolutely nails both, look into Sekiro Shadows Die Twice
It cannot be understated how fucking hard the game goes once you understand the combat system.
An amazing core combat system with Fromsoft’s level design goes unbelievably hard.
Ongbal’s also made some amazing videos focusing on the sheer variety and depth of Sekiro’s combat system.
I still struggle to deal with 2 enemies at once lmaoo
Really great video and breakdown bro! Keep up the quality content!!
Thank you so much! I'll do my best. Love the name by the way. Kingdom Hearts is the Goat! 🐐
Not bad for your first essay. Not bad at all. One thing I noticed is that DMC3 feels very similar to Bloodborne in that the most optimal way to take something down is by jumping down its throat with a full toolkit rather than waiting for it to come to you and punishing whiffs with the same move. That, and the main characters both wearing trench coats.
I kind of had this issue with ds3. It felt like enemies, even common ones, got to jave flashy exotic movesets while i was stuck with stiff bland options. I told my friend its like these enemies have bloodborne movesets while I'm stuck with dark souls 1 movement. In ds1 enemies were slow and felt like they had weight so it worked well with the player being stiff, but in 3 they are flipping and jumping around and all I can do is time my rolls.. it's boring and silly to look at. I thought sekiro did a good job of making enemies seem intimidating but also letting the player feel powerful as well. I hope the next game is either a bloodborne or sekiro follow up... or if god wants to bless us enough, another mech game.. I would lose my shit over a new chromehounds
You do know Armored Core 6 came out a couple of months ago right?
Play Nioh 2 if you want those sick attacks.
Amazing descripition bro, im really looking foward to your´re future videos!
Absolutely love this video and the equal respect and understanding of both games. Just because one way is good doesn't make the other way bad. And both ways work for each game their set in. It's really nice, and I think it's important to mention a character like Godfrey has much more freedom since you can either play like how I did and wait for him to attack and be patient, but also trade blows back and forth every second and play on an equal ground. I feel this fight and way of working supports your thought process on being equal or not from a lore stand point since that fights main attraction is a tarnished VS a tarnished, and is IMO one of the if not the best fight in the game.
Thank you not only for this comment but your level of understanding to my point. It means a ton!
The ability to taunt the boss, and the boss actually stop to taunt you back is the coolest thing ever
Souls vet here
This is why
I will almost always choose a class or build the character in a way that i can have lots of spells and weapons at the same time for variety
Cause Just R1 a boss to death or 1 shot him with magic looks cool
But is just not fun at long term
If someone is only R1ing or Azur Cometing a boss to death, then they're playing the game wrong lmao.
AMAZING content I love your unique take ❤
THANK YOU SO MUCH! I'm gonna do my best in this RUclips world. Thank you for even taking time to watch! It means a ton!
very well put together video *clap* you need more content like this in your channel
We hit 1K views!? BRUH! Regardless of if you agree or disagree with me, thank you so much for even taking time to watch. Now I'm really motivated to keep pushing. Hope we can all find a space to conversate discuss stuff. Thank you all for your comments and likes and shares etc
you deserve 1k views and much more, you've earned my sub 10 times over keep up the great work
@@Envy-eq6qpYOU GOT IT! ILL DO MY BEST! THANK YOU SO MUCH
...wait what?! LMAO the video just ends abruptly. You are indeed correct, this video editing thing takes a lot more effort than people realize. It was a great video while it lasted lol.
If you want to talk about DMC Boss Fight interactions, I recommend watching Battle with Credo or asking players (MartinG as an example) about Boss D4nte, they are the peaks of DMC boss interactions and boss interactions as a whole, Credo is very aggressive and the boss fight video shows its peak while Boss D4nte literally reads your inputs and will respond accordingly every single time and you’re essentially playing the character and boss at the same time
True and real. Now I don't like echo-chambering but this video series is going to be the perfect synthesis of why souls games don't feel fresh anymore. They're just "learn the boss moves and react accordingly" not "become a better, more responsive, player than before" it's like getting a natural resistance to viruses if you're exposing yourself to them, not building the foundations of a strong body capable of not getting ill in the first place.
This is why I love nioh2, it's got the average souls-like elements but the weapon complexity is out of mind.
Good stuff here, man!
Would definitely love to see more.
I love the way ur using donguris gameplay vids, beacuse hes the most stylish dmc player ive seen
One of the best to ever do it! Had to pay the man respect!
Y'know, as someone who has a lot of trouble getting into Dark Soul because I grew up on DMC and Kingdom Hearts (accurate lore breakdown at the beginning, by the way), I am thankful someone is around and willing to actually break down the difference between the two. Desctibing DMC combat being about style and flow, while Souls combat is about reads and punishes, does help explain why my hyper aggressive ass keeps dying to normal enemies.
Also, for a first video essay, I appreciate how you use the visual medium. I find most video essays can be listened to like podcasts, which removes the need for the "visual" portion, so having one built entirely around what's on screen hits this nice middle ground between what I'm used to and tutorial, given the subject matter. Doubly so when paired with the music (Meteor Herd my beloved) and your casual yet precise narrative voice.
There's an upcoming game by name of Genokids that seems to try and mix elements of DMC with KH, or so i've heard. May be worth looking into.
Some other action-heavy games that may be interesting to look into and spread the word about: Soulstice, Gori: Cuddly Carnage, Cookie Cutter and Enenra.
@@jurtheorc8117 Yeah, those are on the list to look into
Now that you mention it, where do you think that Kingdom Hearts (2 and 3 specifically) falls in this discussion? On the one hand, you can do some crazy shit in a combo. On the other hand, most of that stuff comes after following the boss's lead for varying periods of time.
@@eddytennyson9546 While I do agree that Kingdom Hearts is more on the read heavy side of things, I think the main difference between it and Dark Souls is flow. While its not the crazy high APM game that DMC is, Kingdom Hearts does want the player to generally always be doing something. So there's this natural ebb and flow as both the player and the boss are trying to land their combos on each other at all times, and in most cases both are constantly zipping around the battle field for positjonal advantage to do so. So I'd argue that it could make for a middle ground between DMC and Soulsborne, but definitely leans towards the former.
@@DyxoXinoro There's certainly a rhythm to most fights and I agree that the games largely don't want you to be sitting around. That said, I've found that once you reach a certain level of proficiency, the game finds ways to force you to slow down. The magic system is the biggest offender for this, I feel.
Aiiiie Koudai~ I love Koudai's gameplay in DMC V, also BeeG, and Donguri :3
I wanted to Use BeeGs videos as well but I couldn't find one that wasn't modded, I was trying to stay consistent but I love his content as well! Koudai is my personal favorite because he goes out of his way to play so confidently. And of course donguri is the combo God
very true man keep going you got alot of knowledge and tons of videogame experience/clips
High energy, great points, good humor your content 🔥👌🏽 keep it up
I love souls games because of the world, music, aesthetics but when it comes to combat they're nothing really special. DMC is in a league of their own
For me, the combat of DMC is better, but the souls bosses and enemies are better.
Nioh 2 and Monster Hunter are a good mix of both, though.
As much as I love the Soulsborne games, I've mostly stuck to Nioh 2 after I got it.
Because with 3 different stances (sheathed is half a stance since it only gives moves to certain weapons), 2 melee weapons, 2 ranged weapons, 2 guardian spirits with 3 yokai abilities (spells) each, and 7 shortcut slots for onmyodo and ninjutsu, there are so many ways to deal with problems.
Nioh and Nioh 2 are honest in their unfairness, and that's fine. The significantly higher baseline threat level of enemies is there to compensate for the fact that the player is significantly stronger, and has access to pretty much all of the stupid bullshit enemies can throw out.
It's just fantastic.
Much prefer Nioh 2 than 1. The one shots on higher difficulties were so damn obnoxious.
Nioh 2 is such a big improvement over nioh 1
@@theholypopechodeii4367 Agreed. I really like the soul core system
Very good video
And the thumbnail is 🔥
Bro this video is so good, keep up with the video essay format man
Dood that was fantastic! Great editing and nice music choice
this video was surprisingly good
Thank you for taking time to watch! I'm glad you enjoyed it!
As cool as DMC is it presents a dilemma. Its typically more compelling to be pressured by an external force rather than motivated internally. U have to want to do all these weird hand positions and combos with the main source of satisfaction being internal gratification. I personally don't find the juice is worth the squeeze. I prefer something like ninja gaiden where im forced to perform rather than DMC's sand bag enemy design.
Great video, one topic I hope gets covered is dynamic music. Music in soulsborne games doesn't start until the boss fight and its never interactive but music in DMC or MGRR has certain points that kick in when the player does something. Like Rules of Nature when the player parries the sword from Metal Gear Ray.
The editing >>>>>
TRUE TRUE!
Absolutely perfect video man
Thank you so much! Seriously it means a ton!
That was a nice visual mod when Vergil was sitting. I played the the original where he sit at white plastic chair.
Initiative. THAT is the difference. That is what ALLOWS self-expression, is letting the player control initiative, to lead the dance, as it were.
Souls games, at least the fromsoft ones, always devolve into a 'take turns' affair. When this enemy does this attack, your correct response is x. Build doesn't really change that paradigm, it just changes what the 'correct response' for that particular event is. That's fine. But it's not actually more difficult. What it does, is raise the skill floor and turn the skill ceiling into raw memorization.
Devil May Cry, on the other hand, for everyone but V and maybe Vergil (I haven't played Vergil enough), gives you roughly half a dozen valid responses for every given interaction. While this LOWERS the skill floor, it also raises the ceiling, as more involved expression, requires more skill and timing. To get saucy, you have to have the skill to know how.
You also have Monster Hunter, which is a middle-of-the -road option, skipping the environment encounters for an emphasis on spectacle against 'big' enemies, using a mix of the two styles while keeping the high memory, lower execution type of difficulty that is a hallmark of Fromsoft souls games.
Then there is Nioh, particularly Nioh 2, which starts out looking like a Souls game, then ends up playing more like DMC by the end of it. Nioh is my favorite 'souls-like' series for that reason alone. Player power level progresses in a way that lets the player pick up more and more options for initiative as they not only level, but also as they begin to understand the mechanics. You begin to completely dumpster enemies , and generally just walk through the game by the end, without memorization needs or having an 'overpowered' cheese build. Then you get new game plus, and it resets the stat balance to make you struggle again, but then evens out. All the way to endgame you have this loop. Team Ninja mixed classic third-person action combat interaction design, with souls-like encounter and non-combat mechanics design, then decided to throw in Diablo-style loot for a bit of spice. It works VERY well, for those willing to learn. It's, I'd say, mid skill floor, high skill ceiling. It is obscenely fun once it clicks, but for a lot of people, they bounce before it gets a chance to. I've seen players (People I know IRL) who legitimately played the entire game as a basic souls like, and thought it was a pretty bad clone. They felt it was a chore to play. Then I grab the controller and blow their mind by doing DMC-grade saucing on enemies they struggle with. It has a shockingly good set of core reward loops, and enough flexibility in moveset and viable items/builds, to allow self-expression to flourish. The game gives you tools for setting pace, interrupting the opponent at any given time at cost of resource, and generally controlling the flow of the dance. You can take turns, or you can whack an enemy on their turn as you dodge their attack, or you can choose to build around not letting them have a turn in the first place.
By focusing on having a set amount of 'weapons' and then having the differences be entirely aesthetic (aside from diablo loot gen, but you also have easy access to transmog for fashion), it lets them give depth to the movepool and options available to the weapons. It also lets them make a weapon type with complexity suitable for any given player. This ranges from full fighting game style combo strings, complete with being able to infinite loop the enemy in stunlockstate, to being able to go full unga and just trade blows, whacking things with a large hammer, hyperarmoring through incoming blows and whacking them in return.
At the end of the day, characterr action games and RPGs both live and die by their 'combat' systems. By the way players interact and conflict with the world around them. Sadly, the souls series' combat is straight up the weakest link in the chain. It's world-building and investigative storytelling are stellar, as is it's visual presentation, mostly. But the combat feels like 'same thing different day', just with speedhacks on.
Could not have said it better myself and its for those reasons that Monster Hunter and Nioh are some of my favorite action game series of all time. The way that they incorporate both reactive and aggressive approaches to combat while forcing the player to engage with the more complex mechanics offered by each weapon type create this perfect synergy that just can't be beat, both you and the enemy are caught in this engaging dance where neither one of you takes the lead for too long.
cmon man we want part 2
where's your motivation?
IM TRYING BOSS! 😂 I didn't know this would get attention super fast (for me at least) but don't worry it's on the way :)
I subbed because of that Luda reference because I knew you was my people.
Wow, great vid. Have yet to play Elden Ring, but I did play DS3, and the difference between what souls offer and DMC is so vastly different it's entertaining in their own ways
this video goes hard, instant sub
And yet we still have *those* people who think that DevilMayLikes are objectively inferior and require no effort in comparison.
Goes to show they never actually played them.
bro couldn't stop cracking jokes every 20 seconds
That's why I love MH: different mosnsters, different weaposn, different items. And all are viable options.
When you said "when I move you move" I said "just like that" at the same time. And then I subscribed.
This is a great video! It expresses its thesis in an understandable manner, is entertaining in its own right and isn't needlessly dismissive either. Great job explaining the difference between difficulty and skill expression. It can be hard to talk about Soulslikes in comparison to "character action" (or whatever you wanna call them) games without downplaying either inherently, and I say that as someone who thinks Soulsborne combat is overrated on the whole. Looking forward to the eventual continuation!
I remember when I discovered I can use empty Royal Parries to fill the SDT meter. I was able to abuse BP Cerberus and still have enough charges to save for regular DT
i hadnt noticed that vergil stops to taunt thanks for the tip
I was just thinking this today. I’ve been playing and loving souls since demon’s souls, but I feel like I’ve had enough. I’m itching for something modern along the lines of dmc and ninja gaiden.
Also, did you record this on the ps5 controller’s mic? Hell my phone’s mic sounds better
This why I like FF16 combat design of being similar to dmc but offering more variety to allow for the player to test different combo's and abilities to their play style
I enjoyed DMC but it left my memory entirely after playing it once, while souls are always one of my most vivid gaming memories.
Amazing dude very well said
Thank you so much! I did my best to be fair and highlight both games strengths so I don't just come across as a fanboy of one 😂 thank you for taking time to watch!
Anyone know what the song that plays at 3:56 is? Also great video man!
Man this is exactly what I’m talking about and why I’m so frustrated with all these new games turning into souls like as if that’s that only genre that exists. God of war especially pissed me off because while the new god of war isn’t bad them transitioning to a slower more souls like gameplay was unnecessary. I do love souls gameplay but man it’s not the only style of genre.
I don't play spectacle fighters, don't enjoy them, feel like my fingers will pop outta their sockets and I still get shit grades. But I fucking love watching them. They are quite the... spectacle
IM NOT GONNA SUGARCOAT IT
3:30
*forward+R1+triangle, forward+R1+triangle, forward+R1+triangle, forward+R1+triangle, forward+R1+triangle, forward+R1+triangle*
What’s the song that’s playing in your DMC section of the video that shit slaps 😂😂
i even tried to play spider man like dmc recently, like playing like the character, playing by your own terms... its what every real time or acrion based game should feel like now and I love it.
What's the song at 3:20? Im certain it's from Persona but the name escapes me
The days when my mother was there from P5
It's called "when my mother was there" the pyramid level. Good ears!
Really glad to see this sentiment going around, as I think it's an important one to acknowledge for Souls games going forward. Within the mechanics of Souls games there's really only so much you can do, which means it's hard for them to really tune difficulty and design *new* fights. The player has no offence to really execute on because it's just hitting your attack button at the right time after dodging through patterns and stuff. So it's all just on recognising and responding to patterns. It's not so bad but as Souls games focus more and more on action the limitation becomes more and more apparent.
Cool vid, would recommend mixing the music a tad lower as it's a bit hard to make out what you're saying at points, but I had a great time listening to this :)
*Nioh* really moved this “genre” forward by expanding on what FromSoftware started. It’s baffling to me that other developers aren’t doing what they managed to achieve with that franchise.
Nioh 2 is the best blend of both. Monster hunter as well in terms of enemy vs player focus but it feels quite different.
I think Monster Hunter draws a strong line between the two.
If you understand the monster you're fighting, you can pull off a variety of different playstyles.
You can literally go from punshing a monster in the face using a small shield as a brass knuckle, to playing a third person shooter, to identifying as an attack helicopter.
SO true! I need to add monster hunter to the mix in future videos!
Neji mentioned? I'm subbed for life.
Genius video
YURRRRR!!!!!!!! ON GOD!
dark souls games definitely feels like what it's like to be an enemy in action games rather like the player, which makes them feel incredibly unique
Based SA2 OST enjoyer. Also fuck, Meteor Herd works so well for that Vergil fight.
I've tried so many times to get into action games like DMC or FF16. I get so bored because there's no tension. Nothing is a threat. You're basically just practicing on combo dummies for most of the game.
I do also think FromSoft's combat is a bit too restrictive and they should evolve it in the future.
There are some really good attempts at mixing the two styles. Actual challenge + freedom to express. The newer GOW games and Jedi: Survivor come to mind.
Have you tried Nioh 2? It’s basically what you’re asking for. Lots of options for weapons with a stance system which changes your attacks/combos and kicks your teeth in if you’re not prepared. You can also equip enemy attacks, which is really cool.
@@theatheistbear3117 Yeah. The Nioh series is definitely one of my favorites. I probably have 500-600 hours between both games. I still play it occasionally.
This is why i enjoyed sekiro so much more than elden ring. It felt like an actual fight instead of dodge and attack dodge and attack
The problem with dante in dmc5 is that royal guard and trickster completely remove difficulty from the character
I think it's very telling for me which genre I prefer when I tried Dark Souls 3, got my ass handed to me by the first boss, did barely any damage and felt unmotivated to continue but when I started playing DMC 5 the other night and started popping off (admittedly beginner level) combos with Nero all felt right with the world.
HELL YEAH! WE TRYING!
YESSIR!! WE TRYING!!!
Thank you! Finally someone puts Elden ring combat problems in a coherent way.
this video slaps immediate sub
Thank you for taking time to watch! Imma do my best! Thank you for subbing too! This is all new to me 😂 so please bare with my process 😂 all love !
Character action has always been my favorite games to play. Souls games are amazing but after playing 4-5 of them I kind of say to myself "I've probably played my fill of the genre for a while". On the other hand, action games are so different from each other that I can't really say the same (I.E. Kingdom Hearts and DMC play so differently from each other, but both have such an immense replayability andentertainment value that I can never get tired of the character action genre). You have already explained why the versatility of these games make them so popular so I won't go into that. Music is also a really big thing in character action games that makes them shine and DMC being what is it is proof of that. Amazing video man keep it up!
The big three for me are DMC, NieR and MGR. Haven't enjoyed others I've played as much (and in particular I do not enjoy Bayonetta at all even though I see other people rave about it and obviously I like some other Platinum games). But even those three are very different from each other despite NieR:Automata and MGR being designed by some of the same people, so I definitely agree on the genre offering radically different experiences (in particular, DMC is all about sheer mechanical depth and combo variety, NieR is closer to an RPG with build customization and an open map (but isn't quite the same thing as an Action RPG, which refers primarily to Soulslikes and adventure games), and MGR is simply much easier even at high difficulties than other character action games and strongly encourages total offense rather than playstyle mixups); I would add that it does not do so in a way that is subject to just being divided neatly into subgenres, because that would basically give each series its own subgenre, and at that point we should be talking about series and not about genre.
I also have to confess to enjoying Genshin Impact, which is like the babiest of baby character action games, but that too offers a totally unique experience from other franchises in its party-based combos where instead of switching weapons or styles like Dante you switch characters on-the-fly and have several methods to form synergies between those characters which through combinatorial explosion produces a deceptively complex combo system considering how dead simple each individual character's moveset is on their own.
and then there's kingdom hearts, which somehow does both. your ability to damage the superbosses is on their terms (this varies between individual superbosses so i'm just going to go with the standard that remind set where they take chip damage and have super armor when they aren't open), but your ability to avoid damage and the specific way you do damage is on your terms.
Finally, someone that actually said it...
I've been saying this for a lot of time, DMC's combat is far more enjoyable than Souls games. I'm tired of seeing another copy of Souls game come out every year
Wouldn't it be cool if FromSoftware's bosses change their strategy depending on your build? Like imagine going for a sorceror/faith build and the bosses AI shifts to try and get closer to attack, or if you have a build with high poise damage, the bosses dodges your attacks, it sounds cool in perspective but nearly impossible to achieve. Obviously you can'e keep using the same method over and over since it'll be repetitive, but I think if FromSoftware had the time, they can pull it off.
That's literally what happens in pretty much all bosses already. Have you ever even played a souls game?
@@dziosdzynes7663 huh seriously? I don't think I've noticed it, even tho I've finished DeS, Bloodborne, DS1, and I'm currently going through DS2. I didn't notice any changes.
Soulsborne's strength to me lies more in being an adventure game than a action game honestly. That's why I appreciate bosses in Demon's Souls and DS1 way more because of their unique traits and more creative ways you could tackle them like an adventure game. Zelda BOTW even uses the open nature to its advantage for the combat with creativity, but Elden Ring doesn't for the most part, which is fine but for pure combat there are better titles.
I don't find the demon souls and ds1 bosses good at all apart from a handful. Honestly I would consider some of the Demon Souls bosses terrible. I'd give the average demon souls boss a 4/10, ds1 boss a 5/10.
Elden Ring I would give the average boss a 6/10 cos the roster is bloated as fuck. The fromsoft game with the best bosses is Sekiro I would give its bosses an 8/10 average. I get what you are saying about it having gimmick bosses but the later fromsoft games have way more interesting gimmick bosses imo.
these infinite hour playtime players are my inspiration, truly.
Let’s go baby
AAAYEEE!!!!!
Head up, king. You cooked
Monster Hunter really has the best of both worlds, and I firmly believe its combat to surpass that of any fromsoft game (except potentially sekiro where player expression is definitely a huge thing). In Monster Hunter, you play on the boss' terms, and get that david vs. goliath feeling that souls games try to evoke by stripping down combat to its fundamentals, yet comprehension and eventual mastery over the fight allows for so much experimentation and creativity when it comes to setups, punishes and how you approach the fight. A good Monster Hunter player doesn't just masterfully navigate an encounter in the same way a no-hit souls player does, but they're able to take the reins throughout the hunt. The series is almost unmatched in that aspect.
Damn all the right SEGA music choices... Not a lot to go wrong with those tho 😊😊
As someone who grew up with DMC, I played Bloodborne and I can say it is an incredibly satisfying mix. I went on to play Dark Souls and Elden Ring, and those games to me sucked. Going to be trying Sekiro soon. But until then, I can say Bloodborne is the best Soulsborne. Dark Souls and Elden Ring are overrated.
Elden Ring's bosses, including Malenia, exemplify the flaw in the gameplay. The best kind of gameplay should be a dance where both participants feel strong and being plentiful in options the whole time. This is shown in a legendary manner in the cases of Dante vs Vergil throughout the series where you are fighting an equal. The ability to be defensive and offensive at a moment's notice is what makes it shine. Contrast that to Elden Ring bosses which feel cheap, spamming heavy attacks, with both participants having much less mechanical variety.
Aaayee! Thanks for this comment! And I'm sorry you didn't enjoy dark souls/Elden Ring. I haven't tried bloodborne myself but I've heard it's better than souls at least. I have played sekiro and it's definitely more expressive. I was gonna save that for part two of the video but to me it's a souls game with more expression.
Also thank you for your take and for taking time to watch!
My counterpoint is that you play Souls games to feel like a nobody with nothing special trying to take down godlike beings or straight up gods, so the character should not feel powerful.
i have a lot of complaints about this series but i gotta say sekiro is one of the best action gameplay i've played, dark souls 3 i think its good and pretty more balanced than the others but sekiro is the highlight of fromsoft for me
Sekiro is also pretty linear, it's not exactly a dance, but more like you defending against the boss's attacks 90% of the time, but it looks like a dance, Sekiro is more like a rhythm game, when you press 1 button most of the time according to the timing of the moves, it's neither mechanically deep (you can cancel moves, but it is still so slow, it barely matters) nor stylishly engaging like DMC, but it does 1 thing perfectly: "parry" so if it clicks with you, it really clicks, you'll feel good, and that's all that matters.
Judging by how much can be improved upon, and how much can be polished, I really want a Sekiro 2 to fully realized the game, for me, the perfect Sekiro gameplay is something like Sifu, when there are occasionally stagger moments when bosses/mobs are vulnerable after certain moves have been parried, that gives you some time for combos, right now, Sekiro feels too much defensive and not offensive enough, and the people who can play offensively are already too good at the game, so they can sacrifice health for offensive options, when 1 mistake means death, so I don't really recommend casual Sekiro fans to go offensive, play the game by their rules, parry/block, mikiri counters, jump, that's it, don't need to attack, you attack to bait the enemies to attack you, remember this and you'll have a good time in Sekiro.
still waiting for part 2 man??????
This was an ineresting watch
It isn't really how I like to look at boss battles
However with your viewpoint I can explain the issue I have with Devil May Cry in a manner that is far more befitting to the game:
The game just doesn't allow me to hold myself as low as in a souls game and focus on dodging attacks while respecting the bosses terms
I previously thought the series just wasn't a gameplay style I liked
But when you explain how its main focus is the expressiveness of the player I think that doesn't HAVE to be the case
It's just that the developers didn't focus much on the playstyle that players like me would choose because they were too focused on the many many many other ways players expressed themselves
I really like that way of viewing at it, because it distinquishes my issue with the game as something they understandably didn't focus on, but nevertheless could be improved
(like seriously please just give me some sensical i-frame dodge whichs movement is not dependent on wether I am walking perpendicular to the boss or not)
Bro cooked fr.
I'm back and I just wanted to say, if you're actually interested in making videos as more than a hobby, I'd recommend getting a better mic. If you need any recommendations, I'll help you out. Also good job changing the titles of the video.
In dmc you are here for kick some ass in elden ring you are here for getting your ass kick
Only if your bad lol
I agree with what you said, Elden Ring was boring af and most players use the mimic thanks to unfair and glitchy bosses.
With the exception of Black Blade, I would say every boss felt like playing vs a computer instead of something more immersive. Actually, Godskin and Fire Giant were probably the worst bosses I've ever faced in *any* game - Godskin was a glitchy mess on a cluttered arena, Fire Giant's second phase was boring to the max. I felt like DMC5 was on par with DMC3, but the soundtrack for the last fight is kinda questionable imo
Great video! But I have something against only using Milenia as an example.
To preface: I didn't fight Milenia, I never got that far into Elden ring. But I have played dark souls 1-3. Dark souls 1 does have a boss, Taurus demon, which allows some self expression by using the stage. You would usually fight it on a thin bridge, but there's a ladder at the back of the arena where you can climb up. From here, you can either do an attack from above, doing massive crit damage, or you can wait to let it jump up with you, and fight on a better arena. Hell, there's even a ledge on the bridge where the Taurus demon can accidentally fall off.
Iron giant is another boss in ds1, where the boss can be toppled, and it falls over. You can do it by a ledge to make it fall off the map.
With ornstein and smough, the 2v1 boss of ds1, you can choose who to kill first, and who you want to be powered up for the 2nd phase.
The gaping dragon has a weak spot at the front, which you can hit for extra damage. But you risk getting charged, which will likely 1shot you. You can cut off tails of some bosses if you wanna try/risk it, for boss weapons. You can make a divine weapon to counter skeletons that regenerate from death.
While action games like DMC will always be superior in self-expression, it's unfair to use only Milenia because, while she is the common souls boss, that doesn't mean every souls boss has 1% self expression.
Speaking of Ornstein and Smough, they remind me of a boss in DMC3 called Agni and Rudra. Like O&S, A&R are fought 1v2, and defeating one powers up the other. However, there is a delay between defeating one and the other powering up, which means a frequent strategy is to whittle both down to nothing, kill one, and then quickly kill the second one, preventing the powering-up phase; Hell, it's possible to kill both at the same time with the right hitbox interaction. Is it possible to do something similar with O&S?
@flamaniax5728 no, when one is killed, there plays a cutscene. I don't know what happens if both are killed at the same time, since that is very very hard to achieve. I would assume it's a 50/50 chance or one takes priority over the other.