The Character Action Genre & You: What is Character Action?
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- The Gaming Brit video that started this response: • JUST Action Games
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elrapido5150 Creative Response
Wtf man that title is so Onimusha
I think Vanquish should be a Character Action Shooter!
In that case, we need more of these kinds of games because Goddamn that game is so much fun! Still waiting on a sequel or some kind of spiritual successor.
@@DinoDave150 try ultrakill its a character action fps!
@@DinoDave150Warframe
I feel "spectacle fighter" is a much better descriptor for the genre really, as the game's focus is on the style and is also focused on the depth of the fighting
Ninja Gaiden isnt focused on style, but mastery and high skill ceiling.
@@scary5455 that is style
Well this reminds me of how 1st Doom sprouted the whole new genre of games which used to be called "Doom clones" back then and how broad it is now as FPS
Nicely done argument; people often forget that genres are made for people to navigate/understand/find works of media of similar types that they might like rather than to argue about what things are on the internet.
Your survival horror point alone shows the importance of sub genres. Action game is far too vague to describe every game with action.
SurvivalHorror100 absolutely. Just like how metal in general is vast thats why we categorize them in sub genres to make it easy to look for interesting bands that share similar style of music. Same thing applies to action games :-)
The metal example is especially on point, for the reason you gave as well as being an example of what Foxcade warned against: being too exclusive when something doesn't perfectly match one's expectations for the genre. Metal subgenre purism is infuriating, which is part of why artists who aggressively don't give a damn like Devin Townsend are such a delight.
(misses the survival horror boom as well)
I honestly felt that this was a really weak point, since horror isn't really a game genre to begin with. It doesn't describe in any way what the gameplay is like, only the aesthetic the game has. Anything from Castlevania to Resident Evil is a horror game. You could design a survival horror game, and then strip it entirely of its horror aesthetic without touching the gameplay, and it would just be a survival game. Meanwhile, in order to make an action game not be an action game, you have to actually alter its gameplay to strip it of action. You could argue that the term action game is too nebulous, but it at least describes the gameplay to some extent, something horror absolutely fails to do.
Whether or not horror describes gameplay is completely irrelevant to the overall point. You said it yourself, "you could argue that the term action game is too nebulous", thats literally what he is arguing.
@@benparent9864 It's been some time since I watched the video (and won't watch again right now), but I seem to remember that he made some point about how action is too nebulous and needs additional descriptors because horror (at least he provided it as an example) does it as well.
My point is that action isn't as nebulous as horror, since horror is uniquely an aesthetic descriptor, while action does offer some hint to the nature of the gameplay. Which is why I said it's a weak point to make, since you can't really bring up the comparison like that.
I didn't even say that the video as a whole was wrong, just that that point in particular was weak from my perspective.
I call them Devilnetta games.
I call them Bayomaycry, but I like your name too.
Bayonetta-May-War
Bumdumptruckbayomaycryvanquishrevangebce
Ninja gaidevil
That’s actually an incredible name for them, just like how MetroidVania defines a specific type of 2-D Platformer. Devilnetta defines a specific type of 3-D action game.
if you ask me all games should just be cancelled
I just checked Steam. The suitcase game is called "Assault Spy" and the raptor is "Nelo." Both of them seem to still be in Early Access, though.
@MAGAMan. Z er0 I came here to find out which one the "raptor" one was and I'm so happy it's first comment.
Okay, now that we've got that settled, new debate: Poptarts count as sandwiches. Discuss.
Codex Entry DO NOT BRING YOUR HERESY HERE
Chaotic fact
THEY'RE TOO DAMN SUGARY, LOOK AT MY TEETH, THEY'RE DYING
in seriousness tho they're pretty good as a treat
Obviously the answer is no. XD
they are ravioli you buffoon
I agree with both you and GamingBrit to certain extents.
It's a shame that most people need to act like asses and flame one of you two.
Real talk
I don't understand people who don't like/want people to refer to these games as character action when they will talk about souls games and how things are souls clones. If you take everything as action then souls games are just action games too if we can't have our sub genre that just makes talking about the very specific type of gameplay easier then you can't have yours either.
Because the cornerstone of character action is good combat. Meaning, you could excuse games with worse combat by saying they're not character action. Well, that, and it's stupidly broad. It's nice as a colloquialism, but that's about it.
That's not a good comparison imo, I don't consider "Souls Clones" a genuine genre. Code Vein, The Surge, Salt and Sanctuary are similar, but they're still just action-rpg's to me.
Because souls clones is a more assholish term that just has laced in elitism and skepticism like keeping on with "doom-clones"
A lot of Souls fans dislike the term Soul Clone and Souls-Like. They have been used to lump in games that obly have surface level similarities or aren't good games in general. Just because you use a bonfire checkpoint system and combine money and exp into the same currency does bot make you a Souls game.
I don’t call them “souls-clones”, I call them “'running around the boss and wait for an opening' simulators”
With the mention of Sonic and its end of level rating system, I can remember with Sonic Adventure 2 it introduced a similar DMC like worded Style system for chaining homing attacks, grinds, successfully timed pole spinning moves and Light Speed Dashes. Also funnily enough both DMC1 and SA2 came out the same year, but with SA2 predating DMC by a few months. Maybe some shared ideas between friends from the two companies meeting up on lunch breaks or just pure coincidence who knows, but it is still pretty cool to look and think "oh wow parallels"
Timestamps:
1) Combat Depth 4:50
2) Perfection/Mastery Systems 6:22
3) Faster Pace 9:18
4) Arcade-style Level Design 10:50
I'm glad that "just action games" being a very reductive attitude was pointed out. I mean, I'm a metal head, so I'm very used to the 'Forrest Gump Shrimp Recipes" thing in metal sub-genres (proto-classic-heavy metal, thrash, death, black, blackened death, stoner, doom, prog, avant-garde, circus, symphonic, gothic, black'n'roll, black-thrash, melo-death, viking, pirate, nu-metal, rap-metal, techno-metal, technideath, industrial-metal, then you got your "cores", metal core, grindcore, deathcore, porngrind...and all this ignoring the rainbow of punk/metal hybrid stuff)
Imagine a world where "It's all just metal". Shit would all blend together and would lack identity despite being something separate and organized. I wouldn't recommend Deicide to an Iron Maiden fan and I wouldn't expect a Metallica fan to be into Carach Angren when I first play it for them.
Point is, these labels are here to give identity to our tastes, so we can seek out more of what we like.
and personally, I use "stylish action" as the name, but I know what's meant when people say the others, like "spectacle fighter" or "character action". And knowing what's meant by that is all that's really needed.
Mar Ther I came to a very similar conclusion thanks to using metal as a reference. You can't just say "really good metal," as the elements that are present are mixed and emphasized in different ways to bring different sub-genres. As much as people argue this over metal and video games, you can't just parse the good games from the bad games when there's bound to be clear flavors that you hate and love due to personal preference and values. As much as people may raise eyebrows over sub-genres, they help me find new things when I want a certain kind of experience.
How?
If you have a label for every type of metal, that means every type of metal loses its own identity, and is shuffled in with the rest. If a band tried to do something unique, but some fuck-off band from god knows where did it similarly, they're just be grouped in the same category. That's the antithesis of uniqueness, being like something else.
Furthermore, colloquialisms are colloquialisms for a reason. Meaning, they're not well-defined enough to be definitions. "Knowing what someone means" isn't enough for a definition.
and over-generalization is even worse for that sense of uniqueness.
like i said, if it was "all just metal" or even just "good metal", then new things wouldnt be happening at all, and even if those new things happen, putting them into an umbrella term of just "metal" ignores what makes a band stand out. the best way to do that is to take what we know already and mix it with something we might not know yet. and that subgenre doesnt stop there; it can now mix with other subgenres (Immortal, Mayhem, and Darkthrone are just black metal, thanks to the influence of Venom and Celtic Frost. Cannibal Corpse, Deicide, and Six Feet Under are just death metal, thanks to the influence of Possessed and Death[the band]. Then a band like Behemoth comes around years later and melds those two, popularizing "blackened death metal." Without the presence of the first two, the third would have never happened at all). these subgenres exist to recognize and organize new things so the listener can seek out more of what they already like.
Imagine this: Black Sabbath is a metal band. Slayer is also a metal band. Atreyu is metal. Immortal is metal. Winds of Plague is metal. Meshuggah is metal. Korn is metal. Linkin Park is metal. Carach Angren is metal. But none of those bands sound REMOTELY alike. Their only common ground is "high-gain guitar music", so we say Black Sabbath is heavy metal, Slayer is thrash, Atreyu is metal-core, Immortal is black metal, Winds of Plague is death-core, Meshuggah is prog-metal (or proto-djent), KoRn is nu-metal, Linkin Park is (was?) rap-metal, and Carach Angren is symphonic black metal.
It's about labeling the things for what separates them from each other, not about what makes them all the same. Calling it just "metal" just puts all of them into 1 boat when each set of qualities deserves their own vessel. And if other bands decide to follow well-established formulas, then those bands are considered "unoriginal". Case in point; Trivium, Avenged Sevenfold, and Five Finger Death Punch. in games' case, Darksiders and Okami were just considered 'zelda clones', when Okami definitely deserves more credit than that. Darksiders....not so much.
this is why a consensus needs to be made and why saying "They're just action games with really good combat" is an idiotic claim to me. Why the fuck would anyone play an action game with crap combat? Cuz thats what its implying; these specific games have really good combat, everything else in the "action" file doesn't have good combat. It's ignoring what sets DMC3 apart from Dynasty Warriors and puts subjectivity into what's supposed to be an objective category.
this is why half the games ever created in the history of all games can easily just be called "action-adventure"; as if Zelda and Full Throttle have to share a file-folder, regardless of OBVIOUS differences. May as well lump Witcher 2 in there with them, then. Or does being an "RPG" put it into the same boat as Final Fantasy and Bravely Default? What about Breath of the Wild? Is that an "RPG" because of how similar to Skyrim and Witcher 3 it is? And then, what's Dark Souls? Hack-n-slash or RPG? Is Dark Souls actually an "open-world" game, too? If so, does that mean Dark Souls and Far Cry 3 are part of the same genre? Why did the term "Souls-like" happen for Bloodbourne, The Surge, Salt & Sanctuary, Hollow Knight, Dead Cells, and Lords of the Fallen? Aren't they all "just action games with really difficult combat"? Is Cuphead a Souls-like, by the same token? No, it's side-scrolling shooter, like Contra.
When a collection of games all share the same mechanics (a grading system, deep and expressive combat, fast pace, arcade-style stage design, and hi-octane cutscene spectacle), then they need to have a term that distinguishes them from the others in that "action game" cabinet.
Thus, we need to come to an agreement as to what they should be called, cuz this subgenre has Wonderful 101, DMC, Bayonetta, and Veiwtiful Joe all sharing a house together in the neighborhood of "action games". I prefer "stylish action", cuz "hack-n-slash" and just plain "action games" denies those games their respective credit and identity.
TLDR; If you think emerging sub-genres DON'T provide games a sense of identity, I think you're a fool. To agree with the idea of "just action games" is far more generalizing and pidgeon-holes games that deserve more credit than that. By that token, Vanquish, Spec Ops: The Line, and Gears of War are all just basically the same game. But they aren't, are they?
I love how you can't see the obvious hypocrisy there.
If generalizing a game with a genre makes it lose its identity, why does generalizing it in a sub.genre not? Why can't we, oh I don't know, review and analyse games for what they are, without having to label them anything? Because in the end, they're all blanket statements, since you're only giving games the "character action" title based on your feelings, not objectivity. A colloquialism at its finest, but a definition? Not in a million years.
Also, your examples of loose definitions are horrible. Full Throttle is a point-and-click, Witcher is an action RPG, FF is a turn-based RPG, BOTW is open world third person action adventure, which indeed does make it similar to the Witcher, but not to Skyrim, which is first person. And now I know you're being intellectually dishonest, since FC3 is an open world FPS, not a hack and slash. All of these have actual definitions that you can apply to them objectively. You know, without feels. A first person game is objectively first person, so is third person, so is over the shoulder, so is isometric, 2D, 3D, and so on and so forth.
And you were a hypocrite again, since you said Cuphead isn't Dark Souls because of its perspective, yet lumped in 101 and Joe into the same genre. If a game's perspective is enough to differentiate it in terms of genre, then why does the same not hold true for the character action genre? Like, do you actually think about the things you write?
Also, no, we really don't need to come to an agreement, and we never will. The genre you're arguing for is based on games "feeling" the same, while not being objectively the same. Mostly because God Hand, Joe, and DMC are, objectively, completely different games, but because they're kinda like each other in some mechanics, they're character action. And that "kinda like" is because you look cool and the game tells you you're cool. And coolness is subjective beyond all belief. The very basis of the definition makes it ineligible to be a definition. What it makes it, however, is a colloquialism. And is just as relevant as one.
Thanks to this video, I now know the existence of Nelo and Assault Spy. How on Earth did those games slip by me? Anyway, this was a great insight video. Always love watching anyone and everyone's view on this somewhat undefined genre.
I wonder about that too. I instantly wishlisted them and will wait until they leave early access.
That was me, too! I see these cool and unique-looking CUHRAYZIE GAMEZ onscreen, and I have no idea what they're called! I gotta play these sometime. They look rad. And hey, this is the first person I've ever seen acknowledge the existence of Fairy Bloom Freesia. I had completely forgotten about that game.
Assault Spy gets a huge recommendation from me, been playing since launch and rough edges from Early Access aside, it pretty much nails everything that makes games like DMC great
Same thing happened to me with God Hand, didn’t even know the game existed until late 2017 from watching GamingBrit’s channel, I still can’t believe it passed me up for like 11 years but I’m glad I found out about them eventually
@@lugbzurg8987 here's someone else who enjoyed Freesia. Really deserves more love
“Kamiya Simulators” that’s a new one...
This is pretty much the first time I hear this term. I just checked the wikipedia pages for Bayonetta and DMC and they are all just called hack n slash games. Weird.
I've always heard them called hack n slash games.
First I’ve heard it called “character action”. Also just called them hack n slash. The term character action kind of sounds made up.
That's the problem with subgenre titles not becoming popular; those who prefer games of that type can be seen as elitists of the main genre and you can struggle to find games of similar types, often defaulting to games by the same creators and in the same series.
How many people have heard of the Devil May Cry/God of War series, and Clover/Platinum Games, but not Otogi 1/2, Shinobi PS2, Blood Will Tell, Ninja Gaiden 1/2/3, Nelo, Assault Spy, Nightshade, Bujingai, Chaos Legion, Gungrave (Overdose), The Sword of Etheria, and Mortal Combat: Shaolin Monks? How many assume a game of that type is bad if they've never heard of them before?
I only heard it through gamebrit and later fox. I believed it was a new term .. then I looked it up and saw it was used since at least 2014
I hope this term will never go mainstream. It's so stupid and says nothing (like Moba - i remember people calling Quake 3 moba - becauste its an online arena...) It only helps to confuse people - I'm so sick of misusing words, so I would rather choose another term style'n'slash or something like that .. or outright DMC-clone :P
Hack n slash isn't used that much on the core communities because people used the term for at least 3 completely different genres. Diablo-style ARPGs (usually called looters or Diablo-likes too), Dynasty Warrior style 3D beat em ups and action games like DMC. To differentiate them the communities came up with different names and character action is the one which sticked the most with these kind of action games.
So for people who still think Character Action is a dumb term, imagine explaining something like Hollow Knight without using the term "Metroidvania".
"Hollow Knight is a platformer." So it's like Mario? "No, there's an emphasis on exploration, you get upgrades that help you when you revisit an area." Cool, like Mega Man X! "No, but everything's connected." Like Metroid? "Yeah." Why didn't you just say 'Metroidvania'?
Even if you don't like the name, using a label for a collection of games that all contain similar elements makes things so much easier. Specificity helps. As teen, I had to look up "hack and slash games more like Devil May Cry than Dynasty Warriors", when now I can just say "Character Action games" and people know what I'm talking about.
Furthermore "Action Games with really good combat" is completely subjective to TGB's tastes and preferences. I know just as many people who would apply that term to Soulslikes or Muso games, regardless of whether people here would agree with them. You NEED specificity when talking about a genre of games, and Fox has accurately laid out some criteria for what makes this subgenre a subgenre.
So what you're saying is, every game should be categorized as every other game that's like it, but came before it. At what point does this categorization stop? When it's convenient?
Also, if something's like Metroid, it doesn't make it a Metroidvania. If something's like the Castlevania games that tried to emulate Metroid, that's a Metroidvania. I could even dismantle and disagree with your main point easily, I love it.
Peasham I mean, the whole point is that a subgenre is more about a collection of shared elements than everything resembling the original work. Pink Floyd has more in common with King Crimson than The Beatles, so it's Prog Rock. Alternatively, Queen did not consider themselves prog, but their earlier albums had elements of Prog, which can aid in selling those albums to a King Crimson fan. Viewtiful Joe has an in-depth scoring system reminiscent and a shop to buy moves, so while it's ultimately a puzzle platformer/beat em up, you could describe it as having Character Action elements and you'd be telling the truth. A subgenre isn't this strict label that a game has to fall under because it's like this one game (though some can), it's used by communities to share games that are similar enough in nature to warrant a comparison. And if you could actually dismantle my argument, you should've done it instead of jerking yourself off in the last sentence.
Oh its a Metroidvania? So it has math based RPG mechanics? Oh it doesnt? Hmm...It has a laege inventory system! No? My skills are directly influnced by the death of my enemies ala the Soul system? No...doesn't have that either? Well wtf kind of Metroidvania is this?!?!?!?!
Hollow Knight is a 2d Open World Platformer.
Didn't need to use Metroidvania at all to explain what Hollow Knight is. I dunno man, read the dictionary and learn to articulate better maybe?
@@aureateseigneur5317 okay, so the examples contrived, the point I'm trying to make is that fans of these types of games are going to know exactly what you mean
Whatever people call this genre I just want to say it's my absolute favorite. The top of the heap being Ninja Gaiden. Ninja Gaiden 4 when? Oh and Devil May Cry 5 looks good too!
I'm so happy someone made a video properly discussing and elaborating on what roughly defines a character action games. Thanks for the great video.
13:48 SOMEONE MENTIONED MY GAME! IT'S NOT IRRELEVANT! AHHHH!
You stole my words
Really, I think the truth of the matter is that video game genre definitions are a trainwreck overall. I'm a believer in the argument that genres should be based on core appeal, and then branch outward. The existing genre definition is more based on a superficial description of the game, which sometimes works ok (Most people describe portal as a puzzle game before calling it an FPS or a platformer), but also sometimes misfires (the core appeal of Yakuza varies person to person, since some people are in it for the crime drama, some people are in it for the brawler, and some are in it for the toybox -- and you can easily ignore whichever two pieces you don't like).
That being said, good luck convincing the entire gaming public to stop calling everything an action-adventure game!
You’re not locked in there with them . They’re locked in there with you - Rorschach foxcade
Yeah dude, that's a great scene
Why are we still here... just to suffer?
Live for suffer. Life for revenge. Know your life. Comes to an end
Overall I think that the video is great at explaining what sub-genres are and why they exist AND since Character action game is the name that has been flowing around recently, I think I can agree with it. Again, great video.
13:41 Has the list of games used
Thank you so much
I wonder where FFXV fits in this aspect then? A lot of ppl brush over its combat bc of how simple it may be at first glance, but surprisingly has depth with its weapon switching, warp strikes, and airstep combos as well as looking pretty stylish
In my honest opinion "Stylish Action" is more a modifier that can be placed onto existing games.
It means very in-depth combat where the style comes from you getting the hang of the system, and using everything at your disposal.
Difficulty isn't artificial - rather, it's a matter of "Git gud or get stomped."
And doesn't sound bland, generic, reductive and stupid as Character Action.
What is a fellow Raven/lynx doing in character action territory
@@Azure9577 Ah, I see you've noticed my profile picture!
A Raven must hone their craft in all fields if they want to stay ahead.
People say subgenres can't be based on a few games, but metroidvania is literally named after only two.
You wouldn't think that many people would have a problem with the idea of a way of describing games, but here we are. Loved your take on it, lovely video!
Now i need a Kamiya simulator.
The block button on Twitter is a great Kamiya simulator
I think the real problem with 'character action' as a genre that TGBS touched on is that gameplay depth is the only element shared by all games that are commonly accepted as part of the genre. God hand doesn't have a scoring system (the level system is somewhat comparable but it's disabled on hard mode anyway) and I personally wouldn't describe Ninja Gaiden's combat system as being particularly style orientated but they're considered part of the genre for their technical combat systems. I think separating the games with the deepest combat mechanics into their own subgenre of action undermines what those games do uniquely well and justifies a lack of gameplay depth in other hack and slash/beat em'up ups, games which are just as combat focused but with much lower skill ceilings.
But Ninja Gaiden 2 is so fucking stylish II would say it practically defines the genre as much as DMC3 and Bayonetta
Jordan It runs at 10 frames a second during combat, it doesnt help define anything but how not to make a sequel.
Jordan I agree it looks stylish in a way that many other games don't but it doesn't seem to emphasize stylish play to the extent that something like DMC does. NG's mechanics seem more conducive to quick kills and ruthless efficiency in combat rather than freeform combos, such as obliteration technique and UTs.
I completely understand that perspective, I just mean that once you begin to excel at the game you pretty much learn "how" to be stylish at it because it teaches you how to be proficient and learn the enemy patterns. It provides so many different moves / weapons / options to be stylish like shuriken juggles and cancels that it's begging you to play stylish even if you can only do that on the lower difficulties for a while, but it would be so great if it did have the style meter like DMC 3 / 4 to actually incentivize variety instead of it being just for personal satisfaction to pull cool shit off like kick juggling, combo flexing etc. LTDR it has such satisfying physics and mechanics with a huge amount of moves and abilities that work together that it deserves to be played for stylish reasons as much as DMC despite not incentivizing it directly.
That rarely happened beyond the staircase for me, it's one of the most satisfying games I've ever played and I encourage people to dig into it regardless of it's flaws, just like DMC 3 and God Hand.
I personally use the term "fast-paced action" or "hyper-action" when I describe these kind of hack n' slash games to friends
This was a great video. I agree with a lot of the points you brought up. This is one of my favorite sub-genres and I for one hope it continues to evolve so that one day maybe more people will fall in love with these games like we have.
I just recently kinda got into the Character Action Hack N' Slash subgenre because I've been a big fan of the western hack n' slashes like God of War and Darksiders and Dante's Inferno for a long time. I started with Bayonetta and Just recently started playing the Devil May Cry franchise and started with DMC3. I LOVE the game and I'm planning on diving deeper into the franchise. So far from the fandom I've heard 1 is good, avoid 2 and the remake like the plague, 4 was ok, and 3 and 5 were the best.
I may be late, but I started watching your vids today, I've loved the dmc series for such a long time, watching your videos made me happy, I really enjoy your tone of trying to take in every opinion and then forming your own by watching/playing the thing.
Keep up the good work!
I don't see anything wrong with that term. It's just like the "metroidvania". Those games were basically side scrollers with deep exploration. Some gamers doesn't even know what that means, especially the younger ones. I always call the NBA2K series as "shitty game" and nobody gives a flying f.
I dont think that's a valid comparison since "metroidvania" does actually refer to other existing games which would make sense to atleast the people who've played metroid or castlevania. Character action doesn't give any hint as to what kind of game were talking about. My problem with terms like character action or other terms like spectacle fighter is that people will use it as a scapegoat for having lackluster combat. I saw this alot with the new God of War. When people critisized the games' combat people would use excuse of "it's not a character action game" as if thats an excuse for mediocre combat.
I would say aggressive rather than defensive gameplay is a key feature of the genre. For example dodge offset in Bayonetta allows you to combine your defense with your offense so there's very little time when you are not attacking enemies. Compare that to something like Dark souls that has several mechanics like the stamina system that encourage much more defensive gameplay if you want to stay alive.
What about Ninja Gaiden Black which is a very fast paced defense oriented action game?>
Hack n Slash.
It's very weird, in France we just call "beat them all" games like DMC or Bayonetta
And "Hack and slash" is for games like Diablo or path of exile
And that's it !
Imagine if an anime fighter uses those mechanics
Interesting video, I was always confused on what character action games are but this does help narrow things down. I guess you do have a point of different genres. I hate looter shooters but me not calling them "real shooters" is a bit disingenuous of me.
I believe back in the day with DMC3 or 4 the label on the Japanese covers labeled it Stylish Action. With games like Monster Hunter getting the label Hunting Action which I find much more appropriate than calling it an Action RPG.
It actually dates back to DMC1's Japanese release and is on the box of many other games before and after than era.
That said Chaos Legion (not played but still) is called "Emotional Action" on the box and I wouldn't rush to call every description that Capcom or Namco say a new thing worth applying more broadly.
On Namco, they have new names for each Tales of game with Berseria being... "RPG of Discovering your Own Reason to Live".
Thematically, they tend to be spot on but mechanically I wouldn't say it helps someone pick which Tales of game to play at all.
Action is very interesting in Japan, because technically platformers like Mario are considered action games.
Whether or not you consider it a genre or sub-genre I think the distinction is very important. Calling something an action game is too broad. I've been playing Resident Evil 6 a lot lately. If someone asked me to describe what Resident Evil 6 was like I'd need a little bit more than action game.
Or maybe you can just spend a couple more seconds describing the game and what other games it's similar too, instead of trying to pick one word that defines it perfectly.
Gumshon Highly trained Special Forces officers have to fight zombies and other such mutants after an outbreak of a deadly virus. Can you tell me which Resident Evil I'm describing?
Adam J. Harper When did this go from being a discussion about semantics and sub-genres to a critique of the Resident Evil series. I was describing both Resident Evil 1 and 6. The S.T.A.R.S team fight against zombies and mutants after the outbreak of the t-virus and the B.S.A.A and other government agents fight against zombies and other mutants after the outbreak of the C virus. The description was applicable to both games. The genres are third person survival horror and action third person shooter. We could argue endlessly over Which Resident Evil games are good and which are bad but that would only cloud the topic at hand. And quite frankly I'm tired of that argument anyway.
Brandon Powell No, it's a third person shooter. That describes it perfectly, since it really is like a generic TPS.
@Brandon Powell: Well, with your description, the first game I thought of was Operation: Racoon City. WHY!?
Don't think that I missed that excellent use of Persona 4 music.
I will agree with GamingBrit on one thing: Character Action is a weird name for this genre.
Like, why "Character Action"? What does that even mean? Action with Character?
I much prefer Stylish Action, or CUHRAYZEE Games.
The "it really incentivizes creativity in combat" part feels similar to how different players handle execution in fighting games like Tekken 7 and why veterans were pissed off at the *casualization* of Street Fighter V, both genres have a lot of depth.
Yummy yummy foxcade video in my tummy
spectacle fighter
there you go
What's the name of that game where you fight with the suitcase shown at 1:15?
Edit: Found it. Games are listed at 13:41. It's Assault Spy and in early access, so that means I gotta wait for it to get out before I try it.
For the people that like hack & slash games, here are some from 2020 and beyond:
Soulstice
Valkyrie Elysium
Wanted: Dead
Etenights
Stella Blade
Project DT
Project M
Lost Soul Aside
Phantom Hellcat
Arise of Awakener
Granblue Fantasy Relink
Yasuke A Lost Descendent
Shred & Tear: Explosive Kajun
Shouts out to H&S games, they are making a comeback.
Your welcome.
ive been playing “character action” games since ninja gaiden 2 and never heard the term “character action” until this year
The term has been around since 2008ish. The reason is that people want free form combat games, and that is what Character action is. Ninja Gaiden would be hack in slash, but Bayonetta as brawler shootemup and dmc as hacknslash shootemup. But they all have free form combat. Character action sums up entirely the aspect of these games that players want to play.
It's like comparing Fzero to Mario Kart. One is dead because the other provides the distinctive properties players want, but to just call them both racing would diminish what players are looking for. If you like Mario Kart, you might also enjoy Extreme G.
Honestly, I remember the original DMC being described as a stylish action game, I think by Kamiya himself if I remember right. Hack & Slash was originally referred to for Diablo styled games. Honestly, I think stylish action fits better.
I’m quite surprised you didn’t mention the Darksiders series or Legend of Zelda series.
I think the main problem is when subgenres are used as a justification to have one specific part of a game be more or less heavily criticised.
While describing a game it is helpful to have fast and precise ways to identify them in time and space, but when one has to analyse a game critically I believe it serves better to make a step back from the genre/subgenre definition, look at the mechanics and system that are inside a game a analyse them one by one to see how well they work and how well they serve their purpose in the game.
This is also the context in which TGBS video was made, whic was basically a reaction to people that were livid to him for saying how some design decisions in the new God of War restricted how well you can play it as an action game (close fixed camera and no jump for example). Their argument was that since "it is not a character action game anymore" then combat mechanics should not be judged in the same way...which is bs to me, a system has to be judged for how well it serves to the game purpose and that's it. Those were badly implemented systems for the type of action they wanted to go for in the new God of War. Similar systems served very well in different action games, such as God Hand and Hellblade, as those games were designed around either closere and less numerous encounters and a reduced visual spatial awareness that needed to be complemented by sound cues...sorry for the rant.
So, yeah, subgenres are good for description of a game, I agree.
I opened this video hoping Foxcade would address this issue. I feel like a lot of people don't understand how to gain insight from a review or critique. People want to see the #/10 and have their opinion confirmed or else get mad that someone doesn't share their opinion, or they want to see the score and decide to play a game based on that number.
Well that is because most of the people don't really care or go to see reviews to understand things, but to have a confirmation of the choice they made to like something. It is often more of a social-belonging based process, in which ones identifies his/her own self based on what theylike and it is then natural to feel the wish to have that thing be well accepted by others.
I like a lot Totalbiscuit (R.I.P.) WTF videos, Superbunnyhop, Mattewmathosis reviews and Codex Entry videos as they all talk about many systems, explaining what they think about them and letting you decide whether you would like them or not.
It is in my opinion more helpful, but more engaging and many people just don't care I believe. Which is fine, because in the end videogames are videogames, they are stupid. We all are stupid.... some more than others...
People suck. They can't take different opinions.
Character action actually describes it better than "stylish" or "cool", just because the definitition of that depends drasticly. But having a sense of "character" shining out of the usual military guy with the same movements, this could be identified. So the counterpole would maybe "effective" or "resourcefull", what could maybe be the Souls-way. The problem with "stylish" and "cool" means that it needs to be translated, best example with Dante, especially in 1 and 4, first thing everybody thinks "Huh, that's supposed to be cool?" then you always have to translate what they meant is cool. I came from a point, where characters like Spike Spiegel are cool, so I have a way different definition of what "stylish" or "cool" is than Kamiya. Even his buddy Mikami working in the same company has a totally different oppinion on what a cool action hero looks, sounds and acts like bringing Leon S Kennedy and Sam Gideon from Vanquish at the table, which I do understand. But "character" in they're movements and action, a certain distinction, they have all. So character action fits the gameplay and the motives really well.
Megaman Zero is a stylish character action, change my mind
I agree. Just like Dust an Elysian Tale is.
But Guacameele isn't because combat is more puzzle-based.
Change my mind too.
I've found my people
Character action is the fun of shooting a level 3 Kalinna Ann in DMC4 LDK and seeing all the red orbs flow to you
Character action is the pain of getting killed because Lady's only unique movement skill is a double jump, but taking out the rocket to double jump is just enough time for nearly any attack to hit you
"Fighting games are just 2-D action games."
Never thought about the connection between my love of DMC/Character Action games and Souls-like games until this video. It makes perfect sense now that you brought it up tho
They are just action games with really good combat
ay lmao
*J U S T A C T I O N G A M E S W I T H R E A L L Y G O O D C O M B A T*
They really are. Foxcade's definition would exclude several games from the genre like Furi.
I have always called them "Devil May cry style action games" for more than a decade now. Didnt know it had its own name!
I agree the genre needs to exist, I just think character action is a stupid name for it.
I guess if the point is to be stylish in the game, then why not call it "Style Action"? Character Action is as reductive (and more stupid) than "just Action games".
I like that the Ghost Rider game got a little mention,wish the game got more love,its so underrated
So basically you will going to made up a new genres for every game that has a slight difference to other games with similar or samey mechanics?
That is a sub-genre, but the whole video is just a pretentious excuse for a stupid name of something that already had bigger genres that could classify them well. Like Hack'n Slash, Beat'em Up, Third Person Shooter, etc.
I feel like a real Character Action game needs one of two things.
Dancing,
or the main character lifting an object 100x their size
Foxcade, you Canadian?
Yup. Sorry...
Maple Syrup is better than British Tea! And I'm British!
Dedo Demi thank you so much for that insult it's gold
I heard that about and I knew immediately
0:26
"aboot"
:3
"The more we try to exclude games from a subgenre for extremely pedantic reasons like they don't feel like it or because of some perceived level of quality or because you don't like the term people use for it, the more difficult we're making for it to evolve and grow. And if that happens, then it's doomed to forever be this obscure thing that never really picks up. And as a fan of character action or whatever you wish to call these games, I personally would hate to see that."
I don't mean to be cynical and pessimistic but I'll try to be neutral and realistic as I can, don't get me wrong though, I do agree with everything you've said. I also love to see this subgenre to grow too just like the 2000s and mid-2010s but sadly with SoulsBorne games and open world Action-RPGs nowadays taking the gaming market by storm, it hurts the character action games and makes it seem niche to the publishers, reviewers and the majority of gamers. This troubles me a lot with how it's being treated, and how they don't see this subgenre as a priority anymore. In all honesty, the industry changes overtime and that's very common but when character action games fail to stay relevant with today's standards, it'll turn niche and people won't talk much about it. I wonder what are your thoughts on this one?
So, if a character action game is based on a combat system with a lot of depth, why not call it something like "Technical Action games"?
That's actually kind of a neat term! But I think the point that a lot of people critical of the existing name are missing is that genre descriptors are under no obligation to be descriptive. The term "RPG" is extremely vague if taken literally, and there are certainly people here and there who misuse that descriptor -- a fair amount of people and industry-focused publications label Zelda games as RPGs, of all things -- but generally speaking you know the sort of elements to expect if you're told that a game's an "RPG". Genre titles doesn't have to be literal as long as there's a shared understanding of what they're labeling.
Because "Technical Action" doesn't describe the speed and emphasis on style we want "Character Action" games to have
Some people call it that. Some call them DMC-likes, because it's the earliest notable originator. The names of genres and subgenres are often unintuitive and could be greatly improved upon (soulslike, metroidvania, roguelike), but so long as they do their job, they're fine.
Just don't take them literally, or you end up with crap like "RPGs? But you Play a Role in every Game!".
+Joey Robles And character action denotes speed and style how?
@@Dan4Neo Since making this comment, I officially sided with Codex Entry and now believe that Character Action games are games that are deemed Character Action games by the Character Action game community. Solid definitions are mostly impossible since everyone in the Character Action game community has different solid definitions on what makes games Character Action
My thoughts are always like this: an action game will have combos your character can do via button combinations, But it’s not like a fighting game. The combos you do are determined by the combos the developers coded, not by what you can imagine and link together. The synergy of the moves and amount of agency the player is given over linking those moves is the “feel” i think people are talking about. Character action games playable character will usually play like a fighting game character. Then you just throw in some of the tropes, style meters, unlockable moves, rankings at the end of levels, ect. But ultimately it comes down to the way the character controls. You can easily combo an enemy from full health to death in DMC if you’re good and know what you’re doing. God of war doesn’t really have shit like that, it’s just an action game. That’s not the only thing that disqualifies God of war as a character action game for sure but it’s one of the main ones, The way he controls in the relatively limited combo ability.
this was such a well thought out video.this comment section is killing me tho lmao like wth did anyone watch the video?
I did. And I can tell you that while this was a good video, the topic that was the main focal point is something that should not be touched with a ten foot pole.
@@Dan4Neo I disagree. I think encouraging discussion and debate is needed
I've always been a "Spectacle Fighter" man.
In France, we call them "beat them all" so I think I'll stick to that. Honestly, this debate is tiring and not worth all the talk. Genres can be dumb
If there's one game genre that probably gets as much debate as to what its name even means; its probably JRPGs.
Hell; a game like Dragon's Dogma and Dragon's Dogma Online are totally combination of an Open World RPG, JRPG, and a Character-Action Game.
It feels like defining games like Dragon's Dogma and Nier are like trying to define certain species of animals with various connections on the tree of life.
That's because JRPG is a term we invented to label RPG made in Japan.
I doubt japanese people call JRPGs "JRPG"
Outside of advertising, you don't see it too often.
so many idiots getting angry or salty. they’re obviously not just ‘hack n slash’ games and while character action isn’t the best term it’s definitely better than hns
I'm sure Devil May Cry set the first steps for real fast Hack 'n Slash action not to mention the Devil May Cry clones which came afterward. Love that series to death!
Arent they called "hack n Slash"?
TiTan29 there are 2 genres that are drastically different that are called hack and slash by people that don't play them: Isometric Arpgs like diablo and path of exile are universally referred to as Arpgs by those communities, as well as DMC- like games that still don't really have A a decent name.
It should just be hack and slash since no one really calls Arpgs that anymore except people that don't play them.
yes they are just Hack'n slash, but some would want a game like dmc so they try to classify it as a "character action game", some dumb stuff about sub-genres
dudeonthasopha i've always heard hack and slash, It might be because im not in the us, so people here "only know" the term hack and slash
Z the Booza That's cos there can be games of the same gameplay without all the combat gimmicks that are still hack n slash, as example hyper light drifter or ys vi
Hack and slash is an incredibly broad term. To narrow things down for clarity people use terms like character action, stylish action, spectacle fighter, etc. so that i dont look for a game like DMC and get a Diablo-like ARPG. Its the same reason why people say fighting game instead of "beat em up". Beat em up tends to describe a game like streets of rage which is pve against hoards of enemies so if I'm talking about a primarily pvp game like Street Fighter then I would say fighting game to clarify.
A problem people tend to have with sub genres is that they take the names too literally when discussing how to define them.
I use the TVTropes name: Stylish Action!
youre not alexander !
(Impressed whistle)
I quite enjoy the term “spectacle fighter”, that’s the term I’d use
Can I get this "git gid" at my nearest GameStop? I usually pull out my mom's credit card and buy my way through 😎
13th Party think you should buy that matching Ciel Figuring bud lol 😛
You mean "Git gud" ?
You brought up the name "DMC-Like" as a name some people use to describe this type of game
I hate when people use names like this, for example: Rivals of Aether isn't a "smash bros-like" it's a platform fighter
People even started saying metroidvanias were "Hollow Knight copies" and, as much as I love that game, HK did not invent the genre, though this has mostly died off thankfully
What's the game at 12:10? Looks sick af lol
you've probably seen the whole video by know but anyways. the game is called "nelo" and is currently in early access on steam
teero121 yeah he mentioned it later but the game looks great! I think I'ma pick it up later this week
teero121 but thanks tho!
sure no problem. im really interested in nelo, as well but imma wait till its finished
it looks interesting but there is to much shit on the screen
I call them Brawlers. Games with Fighting Game sensibilities (to varying degrees) that pit you against multiple CPU enemies. Streets of Rage > Tekken Force > DMC.
Brawler means no ranged weapons.
I wish i knew more about one piece....
Mr Jiggely just go for it.
thanks for giving the wonderful 101 some. love. that game is criminally underrated
I'm pretty sure that this genre of games already has an official name... I believe it's Hack and Slash. There's nothing wrong with people calling them Character Action games, but I don't see the problem in calling them Hack and Slash games?
For me, the difference between Hack and Slash and Character Action is the enemies/AI. Hack and Slash enemies are so dumb. They just stand there, waiting for you to punch them. Yeah, there are like 1000 enemies, but they dont do anything. I played Dynasty Warriors, One Piece Pirate Warriors and Naruto Ultimate Ninja Impact and the enemies are all the same, just stand there doing nothing.
In Character Action games like DMC or Bayonetta, you only have like 5-6 enemies that will force you to block, dogde, evade and attack successfully. So you have to learn attack patterns, number of enemies, which type of enemies to kill first etc.
@@jeppyjep You mistook Hack And Slash with Musou... They are not the same thing.
Actually, the greatest examples of Hack And Slash games are Bayonetta and Devil May Cry.
Hack and slash is used to describe isometric diablo like games
Dynasty warriors is musou
Ultimately, it's irrelevant to me if someone uses the term "character action" in a general sense. These games are beat-em-ups when you get right down to it, but we're all typically referring to the same type of game. The problem is when people try to treat DMC-inspired games as their own genre/subgenre, when they're really not; they're just beat-em-ups. DMC just brought the beat-em-up genre into a 3D space and revolutionized it by introducing a variety of new mechanics that became the groundwork for future titles in the genre. It's even more annoying when people try to use that genre card to dismiss criticisms of combat in games that alter in style and presentation from them, even when their combat systems have the same basic mechanics, which is what happened with TGB's God of War review.
Like you said in the video, though, there's an equally present problem with people just referring to them as action games, when there are so many different types of action games in existence -- one of them being beat-em-ups. So no, games like DMC and Bayonetta are not JUST action games, either. This entire discussion is rather... frustrating, in all honesty.
What happend with the term 'Hack&Slash'? What was wrong with that? Im 33, we used the term since like...ever...and now it has to be 'Stylish Character Action Games'? Pffffff
SandroSensei
It's like when people started using the term JRPG to define RPGs made in Japan which, in my opinion, caused the west to shun many of those games for a decade causing many to never be localized...
It's funny that Brit started those videos because people kept saying the new GoW was superior when the gameplay was neutered in many ways, because if we start using a term to demean the genre the older games used to identify as, the new game can be seen as superior when compared to the others on new genre it identifies as.
SandroSensei because what if ur not hacking n slashing but shooting n punching like over half the games he showed
*back in myyyyyy day!*
Its not about elitism. I love both as well but I would like phrases to be able to easily differentiate between those types of games. Games within the same general genre can be so different (and continue to be even more different as games innovate) that I welcome these subgenres to clarify what games are or try to be. I mean Dark Souls is also technically a hack and slash (and my favorite game of all time ^^) but I wouldnt lump it in with Bayonetta.
It’s because mindless hack and slashes like dynasty warriors started to come out
I really like stylish action, going say that from now on
Foxcade is cute.
Dear Foxcade
Lets ask two questions before we talk about "character action games".
What is a Genre and what function it have?
Genre is type, category or other form of art. It make to difference one kind of artwork from another and is case of game to shortly describe about what game is so it have a porpuse of information.
Example: Shooter(game where you shoot)
FPS(game where you shoot from first person camera)
Etc,etc.....
So lets look now on "character action" games.
First we have "character" part what describe exacly what?
Most of the games have a main character or grup of characters, so indetification based on this trait is misleading for "no gamer perspective". The point of view when you try explaine a game for the person what don't know anything about games.
Second "action" is criptic even for me. All games are related to making somesort of actions
shooting, driving and fighting so this is over simplified and i never use therm "action game".
That is bad to describe that kind of games but i agree whit you that those games need a genre name.
"Character action" overall sound like a buzzword similar to "cinematic experince" or "reversed racism" so is time to stop using it and find something what fit more to those games.
Ps: many polacks like me use therm "slashers" and thanks for adding me to video, that maked my day
"RPG" is a term that doesn't mean anything whatsoever when taken literally, I mean you play a role in every game!, And yet it's a functional very good name that has been in use ever since the first one.
"Character action" is the same, it doesn't mean anything literally
Aren't character action just hack and slash games?
Nope. You can play character action games without sharp weapons, like Bayonetta.
I just love that when you talk about fighting enemies in these games you say “styling on them”.
Back in the day, these games were just called hack and slash. Now its character action lol
You didn't even watch the video.
1. Bayonetta uses guns, so there's no slashing or hacking
2. Hack and slash doesn't have fighting game mechanics
Character action game is a fighting game, but you Vs multiple CPU enemies like in a hack and slash game
Honestly one of the most stable/solid game types out there
"Character action game" is the blandest name you can give to something that's supposed to be flashy and stylish
7:41 ouch
that hit me like a brick thrown by a pro baseball player
To me "hack n' slash" means simplified cRPGs with isometric camera and a focus on randomly generated loot, like Diablo or Torchlight... and not third-person console action games like DMC or Bayonetta. Then again, I'm a PC-only player because consoles are expensive and it's the Internet so my opinion means nothing anyways.
Hm. isn't an average PC to play most games with a decent framerate much more expensive than .. a console?
Superschokokeks building a pc that outputs similar quality to consoles would cost u prob around £200 prob less tbh and the games r normally cheaper with frequent steam sales for example. However consoles run like shit so it's smart to build a "good" pc that runs everything smoothly for around £400 really not that expensive. Ur prob thinking of rich kids with £2000+ pcs.
Superschokokeks Welp, it's kind of a mental shortcut on my part. Let me share an unnecessarily long story (also I apologise in advance for my poor English, the joys of being non-native)...
I'm an unemployed uni student and my hardware purchases are mostly founded by my family. We technically could afford an expensive piece of hardware used mostly for playing video games, but a) my university is ~200 km away from home and b) my parents are not too happy with my hobby (they see it as a childish waste of time and a distraction getting in the way of actual work). Even if we got a console, it would be either gathering dust next to the unused DVD player in our living room or serve as a scapegoat for everything wrong with my uni scores and whatnot. My parents would rather pay for a bit more expensive laptop that I can use to work on my uni assignments or write my undergrad thesis (and that can be stuffed into a bag and taken aboard the train with ease) than a PS4 that's only for entertainment.
Even with much cheaper "retro" consoles (say, PSX or PS2) I could buy out of my own pocket I'd run probably into some issues - like having a CRT display. Those aren't small or easy to move around and that's a problem when you're renting a small room for a year or two.
As for handhelds... Switch, 3DS and Vita are still kinda pricey, and I'm not too confident about buying older hardware or game availibility (it's a non-issue with PSP, used games for that thing are all over the place, but older Nintendo-based titles seem... kind of rare to find in this country).
While I'd love to have any console alongside my trusty notebook... well, it's kind of out of my reach for now. I can't get a job, my parents won't pay for a distracting toy and my life has me moving around a lot. Oh, and maybe I just have a bit of an irrational bias because I grew up without any console, that could be a thing, too :/
ah yes, the "good" life of a student.
@joshua No I was thinking more around 400-500€. Xbox one and PS4 have the price tag under 400€
Superschokokeks and I told u a pc equivalent to a console would be much much cheaper tbh I bet u could get one for sub £100 if u look properly. Right now is not a good time to buy a computer tho with mining rigs inflating gpu and memory prices however better dedicated mining cards will reduce gpu prices to make better pcs more affordable (sub £300). U get what u pay for.
The point a lot of people miss with the grading system is that it specifically grades HOW WELL YOU FIGHT. DMC does have times for say, level completion, but that time usually goes down if you efficiently use the FIGHTING mechanics at hand. Gaming Brit uses Sonic Heroes as a counterpoint but that game grades you on your completion time and level interactivity, ie. How much you collect, destroy, and how many score increasing objects you touch, and how fast you can do all the above (which is honestly a little rubbish, the time attack mode lets you have a lot more fun because Sonic games tend to be at their most fun once you attempt speedrunning them). Sonic Heroes doesn't incentivize fighting better through the grading system, even if it does incentivize better play.
Not sure if I agree with Revengeance having deep combat. It's all about the x,x,x and the y,y,y
But parrying and zandatsu
XXX is not even an attack, you only use it to power the cut meter.
Gumshon I mean, the xxx and yyy is a reference to tak fuji
Ксения Старцева yea, I get that, but aside from that, I never really got the feeling that there was enough diversity in the moveset to justify it as belonging to the same ilk as DMC. Still love the game though
There are loads of combos in MGR Revengence and the game has the same dodge offset mechanic as Bayonetta (you can dodge and carry on your combo), you can play stylish if you are good and you use blade cancelling to make the combat even faster.
I really enjoyed this video! I was looking for a definition and this really helped!
A lot of the hallmarks of the genre made me think a cool alternative name could be Colosseum Fighter or Gladiator Action game: Gladiators are locked in a room with and entertainment and spectacle is a high focus. Speed doesn’t really qualify though…