CONGRATULATIONS. That was a proper test. HOWEVER, for the last and most important part (speed), i would recommend, to use a baseline test with a CHEAP, that anybody can buy, wheel-set like fulcrum quattro or campagnolo scirocco and tell us how much faster the enve and the zipp are. (yes i understand the rim lengths are not the same but it will give the viewer a ruff picture)
This may well be my favorite Bike Radar video of all time! A really honest unbiased unvarnished test! Thank you! Please continue tests like this for some shallower all round rim depths please.
fantastic well thought out segment. would love to see more head to heads with this level of analysis, professionalism and thoughtfulness applied. Bravo.
I own a pair of Enve 4.5 and love them. I tested the 7.8 before buying the 4.5 wheels and found the 4.5s got to speed quicker. For Crits and Road Racing the 4.5s are simply the best option. BTW, I do live on the coast and ride daily in 15+ knots wind and I'm never thrown around.
Foggy Shores hi but could you tell me if you experienced any side to side movement flexibility in your 7.8 enve rear wheel mine are awful when I sprint they rub on the brake pads
I don't experience any flex at all that you have described. Matter of fact my LBS sold many pairs of ENVEs to my riding buds and haven't heard of any issues. I would reach out to ENVE ASAP.
Great tests and overall review guys. Have been riding Enve 3.4 for the past year, I've really got nothing to say but great things about them. I switched over to a 7.8 set and felt the carbon pie take over on the descents, of course you do need to lay down the watts to turn them on. As a 124lb rider I think I'll stick to my 3.4s
I just got my carbon BMC from the warranty, my previous alloy one broke and they sent a carbon one to compensate, and it’s 700g lighter and I don’t feel it! The only thing I feel its the absortion
Digi20 yeah I can feel it when I switch wheels, even when moving the bike side to side when out of the saddle, bu the frame? I only felt the difference in responsiveness and impact absorption
Great, thorough review. Especially liked that you spent so much time on them under different conditions. However, I agree with Hambini on the xwind skepticism. Until you can prove in a BLIND STUDY that all your testers can consistently identify marginally heavier wheels on climbs, I'd tone down the 78g Princess and the Pea statements.
Would be interested to see which wheelset is quicker both up a hill and back down the hill as the zipp disengages the freehub when coasting and the enve doesn't. Would in fact an enve rim on a zipp hub be the quickest combo available if building a set of wheels like this instead of buying factory built ones. As these are deep rims and are both inherently strong maybe go for a lower spoke count on the front if you are a rider at the lighter end of the scale.
You left off one category that is kinda big, serviceability a bid knock I have against the Enve's is the internal spoke nipples, also how serviceable are the hubs.
paradox963 good point, but I'd not worry about how easy the hubs are to service as they both pull apart and are easy to service, it's the internal nipples that create a pain in the jacksie if you break a spoke and you're running tubeless. It's time consuming in a workshop turning a 5min job into a 25min so out on the road in the wind n rain oh what a joy lol
Blown away by people who think this a good test. First there can be quite a lot of variance between two tires of the same make / model in terms of RR. Secondly, the internal rim widths are going to change the size of the tire and the optimal pressure.
Not a real factor, but worth considering. Everyone at my races (Ironman) has the same Zipp wheels. I prefer not to follow the crowd and so it was Enve 7.8's for my Tri bike but let's be honest, you can't go wrong with either. Also, Rule V rules.
what ? braking harder because of less friction from the hubs? Is that even significant or a point to be concern about? also, a different bicycle frame was used for the test
naaaaa i would still go with ZIPP for the reason that it is a cafe bling and looks badass when rolling especially on a TT bike. Can't argue any further.
No, but it did look like that in a couple of shots. We were shooting footage for a 'tubeless vs clincher' video at the same time. The testing was done with both wheelsets on clincher tyres with tubes. Good spot though!
frederick sta ana pretty much this. No quantitative data. Even at similar power #'s, a few stiff gusts of headwind can cause a few seconds of variance. And even if you keep your face stuck to the computer your power will still fluctuate to some extent. Nothing scientific here but fanboy admiration...
just took my 7.8 enve wheels out today for the first ride and I experienced awful side to side movement and flexibility of these rims touching the brake pads when sprinting. any one else out there with the same issue??
Hahahaha First off: the statement "the mathematical formula is: Rotating Mass X3 = weight to be accelerated." is so incredibly wrong. That's not a formula that's a very VERY rough estimation and varies a lot from that under different circumstances. Secondly: You're not "CONSTANTLY accelerating". Thirdly: Heavier wheels decelerate on climbs slower so the effect of rotational mass while climbing basically cancels out. Finally: You didn't even address my statement, I was saying 78 grams wouldn't be noticeable, not that 78 grams wouldn't make a difference. You've made a fool of yourself. Ride two sets of wheels 78 grams apart, back to back, learn some physics, then talk to me. Stop regurgitating bullshit you've heard on GCN, you clearly don't understand the science.
You have not mentioned a single law of physics. Let me remind you that you said: Rotating Mass X3 = weight to be accelerated. Which is so wrong it fucking hurts. "...pushed them uphills simultaneously with the same speed and force and let them roll free for some meters." First off, the above is impossible, you say you've pushed them at the same speed and force however if you pushed them at the same speed it would be different forces as the lighter wheels require less force to accelerate and if you pushed them at the same force the speed of the lighter wheels would be faster. This just goes to prove how full of shit you are. You evidently don't understand basic laws of physics such as conservation of momentum (one of newton's laws (his third one in fact) look it up some time). You're claiming there is a noticeable difference light and slightly lighter wheels because of the effect of angular momentum on the acceleration of the wheels. Your thesis being that heavier wheels accelerate slower. You need to understand that acceleration is defined as a change in velocity, so, if the wheels velocity is decreasing, they are accelerating, therefore the the heavier wheels will accelerate slower meaning they slow down less in the same amount of time. This is physics 15 year olds are taught, try and keep up. It's well known that other than the fact of the added weight on the heavier wheelset is the only penalty. Rotational mass may make much heavier wheels feel more sluggish, but a 5kg bike with 2kg wheels will go up a hill just as fast as a 6 kg bike with with 1kg wheels as both bikes are the same overall weight of 7kg.
Yes, lighter wheels are going to be faster up a hill, because they are lighter, it has nothing to do with rotational mass. I'm not saying heavier wheels are just as good. I'm just saying that 78 grams doesn't feel like 234 grams and doesn't make a very noticeable difference. "Also, if heavier wheels are accelerating slower, you forgot (intentionally?) to mention that they accelerate only slower, if you use the same ammount of force applied to a lighter compared to a heavier wheel. To accelarate a heavier whell in the same time to a certain speed compared to a lighter one, you need more force. PLUS, that you have to deal with the gravitation of our earth to climb a steep hill. On flat roads, this gravitational factor is neutralized due to the fact that both the heavier one and the lighter one don't have to climb a single centimeter. This acceleration fenomenon you described, is calculated rotating mass X3= weight to be accelerated." This whole paragraph doesn't really make sense and you seem a bit confused. You can refer back to my other paragraphs as they are all correct and do in fact take gravity into account, I just don't mention it. rotating mass X3= weight to be accelerated This is still wrong no matter how many times you say it. What you should say is: During accelerations; Saving 100 grams on your wheels feels roughly like saving 300 grams off other parts of you bike. But this is misleading because in a situation with two wheelsets of equal weight -- one with heavy hubs and light rims and one with light hubs and heavy rims -- the wheelset with the lighter rims will still accelerate faster even though the wheelsets are equal weights. For this reason "rotating mass X3= weight to be accelerated" can not be considered a law of physics like you think it is. "It's well known that other than the fact of the added weight on the heavier wheelset is the only penalty. Rotational mass may make much heavier wheels feel more sluggish, but a 5kg bike with 2kg wheels will go up a hill just as fast as a 6 kg bike with with 1kg wheels as both bikes are the same overall weight of 7kg." I stand by this, as it is true (not "WRONG"). Obviously pros would go for weights in the bottom bracket because the centre of gravity is lover and the wheels accelerate better but in a time trial situation there would be no difference. "So why are you bitching? I am right in every point i stated." Well... Sorry to break it to you but you're not right in every point you stated. Your knowledge of the situation is pretty misguided. You should read up on: acceleration, acceleration due to gravity, momentum and angular momentum.
We got two of these for our daughters ruclips.net/user/postUgkxHL1v1R3NE5x4KiYfyt8dnQmyNYz7qi5L the same size for age 6 and 9. It works very well for both girls. Gears were very easy for them to learn. Changing gears up takes some hand strength and is a bit hard, but they are learning. They did not come with water bottle holders- we actually got confused and thought the Derailler Guard was the bottle holder!! Regardless of these details, the bikes are fantastic- even our six year old who only just learned to ride bikes caught on within an hour of practice and loves it. Lightweight and easy for them to handle. All the parts are in excellent condition and the bikes are easy to assemble and very well packaged. Great choice for kids!
My team-mates wish they did! I race on test wheels - no better testing. I used both of these in CRRL races last year. (Just for the record, I'm not sponsored for anything and wouldn't take it if it were offered because it would be a conflict of interest.)
CONGRATULATIONS. That was a proper test.
HOWEVER, for the last and most important part (speed), i would recommend, to use a baseline test with a CHEAP, that anybody can buy, wheel-set like fulcrum quattro or campagnolo scirocco and tell us how much faster the enve and the zipp are. (yes i understand the rim lengths are not the same but it will give the viewer a ruff picture)
Can be those 1000 bucks chinese carbon with a rather wide rim.
This may well be my favorite Bike Radar video of all time! A really honest unbiased unvarnished test! Thank you! Please continue tests like this for some shallower all round rim depths please.
I find it very difficult to believe any wheel with an 80mm cross section is "immune" to cross winds.
nice honest review, well done. Too many mags are scared to have a definitive opinion.
fantastic well thought out segment. would love to see more head to heads with this level of analysis, professionalism and thoughtfulness applied. Bravo.
10:37= the tires are not the same!!hutchinson tubeless on enve rims are faster than hutchinson tubetype on zipp!Repeat test with the same tires please
I own a pair of Enve 4.5 and love them. I tested the 7.8 before buying the 4.5 wheels and found the 4.5s got to speed quicker. For Crits and Road Racing the 4.5s are simply the best option. BTW, I do live on the coast and ride daily in 15+ knots wind and I'm never thrown around.
Agreed, 4.5s are my favourite for those races, too.
Foggy Shores hi but could you tell me if you experienced any side to side movement flexibility in your 7.8 enve rear wheel
mine are awful when I sprint they rub on the brake pads
I don't experience any flex at all that you have described. Matter of fact my LBS sold many pairs of ENVEs to my riding buds and haven't heard of any issues. I would reach out to ENVE ASAP.
Thank you
Excellent road test and technical explanation on these top dog wheelsets!! Cheers!!
let's do enve ses 4.5 vs zipp 454 nsw next time
Great tests and overall review guys. Have been riding Enve 3.4 for the past year, I've really got nothing to say but great things about them. I switched over to a 7.8 set and felt the carbon pie take over on the descents, of course you do need to lay down the watts to turn them on. As a 124lb rider I think I'll stick to my 3.4s
Hope you do more tests like these. It's very helpful, especially if you do them via different price points.
Great video review Jamie and very in depth.
No verdict needed. Both are excellent
Great review! Please do more!
Fantastic test, well done guys!
Enve 5.6 disc running tubeless 25c tires. They are amazing wheels!
Honestly guys, you lost me when you said you're able to notice a 78g difference going uphill.
Such bs. You might notice flex or aerodynamics...< 150g difference in rotational weight, no way. Spare me.
I just got my carbon BMC from the warranty, my previous alloy one broke and they sent a carbon one to compensate, and it’s 700g lighter and I don’t feel it! The only thing I feel its the absortion
@@HeathyRoidz you would definitely feel 700g difference in rotational weight. but on the frame its basically impossible indeed.
Digi20 yeah I can feel it when I switch wheels, even when moving the bike side to side when out of the saddle, bu the frame? I only felt the difference in responsiveness and impact absorption
Mark Yao I recently got another bike, with better wheels, even lighter, and I don’t notice it
more in depth testing from you guys , great vid and very interesting ;)
Really liked this @Bikeradar! Very useful video which I'd like to see more of :)
great test more wheel sets tested please interesting comparison
Great, thorough review. Especially liked that you spent so much time on them under different conditions.
However, I agree with Hambini on the xwind skepticism.
Until you can prove in a BLIND STUDY that all your testers can consistently identify marginally heavier wheels on climbs, I'd tone down the 78g Princess and the Pea statements.
Solid review guys !
Would be interested to see which wheelset is quicker both up a hill and back down the hill as the zipp disengages the freehub when coasting and the enve doesn't. Would in fact an enve rim on a zipp hub be the quickest combo available if building a set of wheels like this instead of buying factory built ones. As these are deep rims and are both inherently strong maybe go for a lower spoke count on the front if you are a rider at the lighter end of the scale.
forgot to add the enves chew thought pads...... also at slight braking they can be quite noisy if not toed in quite a lot....
I want a review on the new zipps that have those ridges in em'... that's what I need to know...
Zipp has better resin and much stronger plus performs well in breaking. However, its much much brittle. once break it will shatter like a glass.
You left off one category that is kinda big, serviceability a bid knock I have against the Enve's is the internal spoke nipples, also how serviceable are the hubs.
paradox963 good point, but I'd not worry about how easy the hubs are to service as they both pull apart and are easy to service, it's the internal nipples that create a pain in the jacksie if you break a spoke and you're running tubeless. It's time consuming in a workshop turning a 5min job into a 25min so out on the road in the wind n rain oh what a joy lol
Blown away by people who think this a good test. First there can be quite a lot of variance between two tires of the same make / model in terms of RR. Secondly, the internal rim widths are going to change the size of the tire and the optimal pressure.
Not a real factor, but worth considering. Everyone at my races (Ironman) has the same Zipp wheels. I prefer not to follow the crowd and so it was Enve 7.8's for my Tri bike but let's be honest, you can't go wrong with either. Also, Rule V rules.
Can you guys test the 858s now?
What kind of bike is the black tri bike?
Thanks for the response.
It's this Ventum One - ruclips.net/video/asDhQA_SDyY/видео.html
Cool thanks you for responding. I missed that video. It's a cool looking bike.
oooh, zipp will never sponsor you guys again.
I love my Enve tubulars !
what ? braking harder because of less friction from the hubs? Is that even significant or a point to be concern about? also, a different bicycle frame was used for the test
Two bikes featured in the video. The timed tests were carried out using the Orbea only.
how can you tell the 25 mile hour winds did you go out with wind socket lol
You also need to compare 858 vs 7.8 Thanks
yes!!! keeps this going!!!!
great revive
naaaaa i would still go with ZIPP for the reason that it is a cafe bling and looks badass when rolling especially on a TT bike. Can't argue any further.
you say that both wheels come with carbon hubs but I think the cognition hubs are alloy.... I could be wrong, since I don't own a set...
Update: The 2022 Zipp 808's are now tubeless ready.
I'm curious about the NSW 454's and if they're a clear winner in a test like this.
I got FLO wheels for way less money
probably very close to these in speed
did you run tubeless on the enve? and tubbed on the zipps? that's what it looked like from tire labels. I wouldn't call that the same tires.
No, but it did look like that in a couple of shots. We were shooting footage for a 'tubeless vs clincher' video at the same time. The testing was done with both wheelsets on clincher tyres with tubes. Good spot though!
Watching fancy wheels comparing which I could never afford myself
Hi can you name check the backing track please? If I'm missing it, here's it hiding?!
just based on the warranty I would buy enve
where's the wind tunnel numbers?! it should be better than feel under the pants errr chamois feel
frederick sta ana pretty much this. No quantitative data. Even at similar power #'s, a few stiff gusts of headwind can cause a few seconds of variance. And even if you keep your face stuck to the computer your power will still fluctuate to some extent. Nothing scientific here but fanboy admiration...
just took my 7.8 enve wheels out today for the first ride and I experienced awful side to side movement and flexibility of these rims touching the brake pads when sprinting. any one else out there with the same issue??
Cracking video!
So zipp wins 2 of 3 speed tests and loses because you'd rather ride enve. Uh ok. I though you had just said its all about the speed if one was faster
Great video
78 grams noticeable in climbs?! pfft. I've heard it all now.
Hahahaha
First off: the statement "the mathematical formula is:
Rotating Mass X3 = weight to be accelerated."
is so incredibly wrong. That's not a formula that's a very VERY rough estimation and varies a lot from that under different circumstances.
Secondly: You're not "CONSTANTLY accelerating".
Thirdly: Heavier wheels decelerate on climbs slower so the effect of rotational mass while climbing basically cancels out.
Finally: You didn't even address my statement, I was saying 78 grams wouldn't be noticeable, not that 78 grams wouldn't make a difference.
You've made a fool of yourself. Ride two sets of wheels 78 grams apart, back to back, learn some physics, then talk to me. Stop regurgitating bullshit you've heard on GCN, you clearly don't understand the science.
you just killed that guy!
You have not mentioned a single law of physics.
Let me remind you that you said:
Rotating Mass X3 = weight to be accelerated.
Which is so wrong it fucking hurts.
"...pushed them uphills simultaneously with the same speed and force and let them roll free for some meters."
First off, the above is impossible,
you say you've pushed them at the same speed and force however if you pushed them at the same speed it would be different forces as the lighter wheels require less force to accelerate and if you pushed them at the same force the speed of the lighter wheels would be faster. This just goes to prove how full of shit you are. You evidently don't understand basic laws of physics such as conservation of momentum (one of newton's laws (his third one in fact) look it up some time).
You're claiming there is a noticeable difference light and slightly lighter wheels because of the effect of angular momentum on the acceleration of the wheels. Your thesis being that heavier wheels accelerate slower. You need to understand that acceleration is defined as a change in velocity, so, if the wheels velocity is decreasing, they are accelerating, therefore the the heavier wheels will accelerate slower meaning they slow down less in the same amount of time. This is physics 15 year olds are taught, try and keep up.
It's well known that other than the fact of the added weight on the heavier wheelset is the only penalty. Rotational mass may make much heavier wheels feel more sluggish, but a 5kg bike with 2kg wheels will go up a hill just as fast as a 6 kg bike with with 1kg wheels as both bikes are the same overall weight of 7kg.
Yes, lighter wheels are going to be faster up a hill, because they are lighter, it has nothing to do with rotational mass.
I'm not saying heavier wheels are just as good. I'm just saying that 78 grams doesn't feel like 234 grams and doesn't make a very noticeable difference.
"Also, if heavier wheels are accelerating slower, you forgot (intentionally?) to mention that they accelerate only slower, if you use the same ammount of force applied to a lighter compared to a heavier wheel. To accelarate a heavier whell in the same time to a certain speed compared to a lighter one, you need more force. PLUS, that you have to deal with the gravitation of our earth to climb a steep hill. On flat roads, this gravitational factor is neutralized due to the fact that both the heavier one and the lighter one don't have to climb a single centimeter.
This acceleration fenomenon you described, is calculated rotating mass X3= weight to be accelerated."
This whole paragraph doesn't really make sense and you seem a bit confused. You can refer back to my other paragraphs as they are all correct and do in fact take gravity into account, I just don't mention it.
rotating mass X3= weight to be accelerated
This is still wrong no matter how many times you say it. What you should say is:
During accelerations; Saving 100 grams on your wheels feels roughly like saving 300 grams off other parts of you bike.
But this is misleading because in a situation with two wheelsets of equal weight -- one with heavy hubs and light rims and one with light hubs and heavy rims -- the wheelset with the lighter rims will still accelerate faster even though the wheelsets are equal weights. For this reason "rotating mass X3= weight to be accelerated" can not be considered a law of physics like you think it is.
"It's well known that other than the fact of the added weight on the
heavier wheelset is the only penalty. Rotational mass may make much
heavier wheels feel more sluggish, but a 5kg bike with 2kg wheels will
go up a hill just as fast as a 6 kg bike with with 1kg wheels as both
bikes are the same overall weight of 7kg."
I stand by this, as it is true (not "WRONG"). Obviously pros would go for weights in the bottom bracket because the centre of gravity is lover and the wheels accelerate better but in a time trial situation there would be no difference.
"So why are you bitching? I am right in every point i stated."
Well... Sorry to break it to you but you're not right in every point you stated. Your knowledge of the situation is pretty misguided.
You should read up on: acceleration, acceleration due to gravity, momentum and angular momentum.
What bike in black?
Winner was the Enve 7.8. He goes on and on and on.
woah, awesome!
We got two of these for our daughters ruclips.net/user/postUgkxHL1v1R3NE5x4KiYfyt8dnQmyNYz7qi5L the same size for age 6 and 9. It works very well for both girls. Gears were very easy for them to learn. Changing gears up takes some hand strength and is a bit hard, but they are learning. They did not come with water bottle holders- we actually got confused and thought the Derailler Guard was the bottle holder!! Regardless of these details, the bikes are fantastic- even our six year old who only just learned to ride bikes caught on within an hour of practice and loves it. Lightweight and easy for them to handle. All the parts are in excellent condition and the bikes are easy to assemble and very well packaged. Great choice for kids!
Which is faster, clincher or tubular?
Our tests suggest that there's not much in it - ruclips.net/video/0ovYHQ35-5o/видео.html
I feel less bad about you kicking my ass in road races this season now.
what does nsw stand for
NEST speed weaponry?
I'm sure that 78 grams difference was really, really noticeable. Not. What a total BS comment
Coupled with the tubeless ENVE and the fact that the weight on the Zipp comes from the rim, the difference is VERY noticeable.
Running the enves tubeless would probably add most of that 78 gram saving
That is easily noticeable in a high performance wheelset
Good job your team sponsors envy wheel then Jamie. ;).
My team-mates wish they did! I race on test wheels - no better testing. I used both of these in CRRL races last year. (Just for the record, I'm not sponsored for anything and wouldn't take it if it were offered because it would be a conflict of interest.)
come on guys.....test the m series
And this promotion was sponsored by ENVY.
Bora Ultra 80, anyone?
👍
where is the Daaaaammmmm fast CXR80T ITGmax braking serfas?!
:/
Stay tuned to BikeRadar for a grouptest including the CXR80 and others
Bonucci? Is that you?
Today's show was bought to you by the numbers 7 and 8 and the letters ENVE....
paid advert by ENVE.
Well....the zipp set is a better wheel. (PERIOD) excellent marketing wank for enve though.
جميل
두개 한쪽씩 쓰는게 답인듯
And you would've gone even faster if you weren't running so much pressure!
great wheels but terrible expensive
Those are some seriously ugly bikes
come to Scotland none of them will survive