Fabienne Brugère - Désaimer : manuel d'un retour à la vie
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Fabienne Brugère vous présente son ouvrage "Désaimer : manuel d'un retour à la vie" aux éditions Flammarion. Entretien avec Sylvie Hazebroucq.
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Merci beaucoup Fabienne , quel touchant sujet que vous avez sans aucun douter avec respect et amour.
Pas de désamour (si amour veritable) après une rupture ou séparation ni de reconstruction mais la possibilité d'une nouvelle rencontre affective qui consolera/chassera progressivement l'amour perdu sinon ce sera : "(...) peut-être cela qu'on cherche à travers la vie, rien que cela, le plus grand chagrin possible pour devenir soi-même avant de mourir." L.F Céline
Il me semble qu'ici, il est plutôt question d'attachement et de détachement que d'amour. Or on peut aimer sans être attaché. Si l'on en croit Spinoza "l'amour c'est la joie accompagnée de l'idée d'une cause extérieure". Donc on peut éprouver de la joie sans être soi-même attaché à cette cause, ainsi on peut aimer un écrivain, un artiste des temps passé, on peut par aimer une personne qui est décédée ou dont on est séparé sans avoir besoin qu'elle nous aime en retour. On l'aime par qu'en pensant à elle cela cause une joie en nous. Dans l'épreuve dont parle ici Fabienne Brugère il est question d'accepter de ne pas être aimé et d'apprendre à se détacher, ce qui n'est pas la même chose que "désaimer" (ce qui voudrait dire ne plus éprouver de joie à l'idée de cette causes extérieure).
ce qu'il y a de compliqué dans l'écriture, est son coté transversale. je l'ai compris quand j'ai commencé à écrire de longs textes. Il est compliqué de garder une cohérence, et un fil conducteur à travers des centaines de pages. la tentation de l'égarement vient facilement et c'est frustrant de devoir supprimer des centaines de pages car elles ne correspondent pas à la nature générale du récit. les sujets relatifs à l'amour sont compliqués à traiter, car le narrateur est subjectif. les gens ne trouvent généralement pas le juste milieu, entre le récit asceptisé et le voyeurisme malsain.
Mais je pense que si l'on s'intéresse naturellement à l'écrit, et si on fait des efforts, on finit par présenter un travail qui soit à peu près correcte.
Y a-t-il une traduction en anglais ce serait chouette de l’avoir. Merci!
An unrefined Google translation of the French transcript here- part 1 (Google only allows to upload 5000 characters):
Hello Fabienne Brugère hello we are with you to talk about your of your work entitled
disloved manual of a return to life which is released by flammarion and the first question that I want to ask you is uh to what extent there is a question of death in disloved since it is a manual of return to life it is a question of rupture it is a question of separation it is a question of moving from an attachment to a detachment so in a certain way it is a question of the disappearance of love the question of the disappearance of love it's a form it's a form of mourning to undertake so that it can have it's it's the end of a form of life which can inaugurate another form of life does that send us back like you say it because there are a lot of quotes in your book does it take us back to our finitude yes in particular I was interested in the verb of loved ones in which philosophers are generally not very interested interested in love this question of love he often reads it to the infinite to God to the question of eternity and therefore to a form of forgetting of finitude whereas in the fact of considering the end of love there is indeed the idea that we are finite that life is finite and that there is precisely that nothing but nothing is infinite so there is I would like to read you an extract that I I noted in your book page 190 so it's a bit towards the end of the book but I really like this extract and I would like to question you on this passage you say the manual of disenchantment as work takes its origins in a relationship with oneself which becomes self-care or self-culture in the perspective of fouo this includes a permanent relationship with oneself only the Self matters in the continuity of life a critical relationship with oneself it is necessary to get rid of all bad habits false opinions bad masters a relationship of authority with a master who is neither an object of desire nor love and a practical set of exercises including writing exercises which are something other than pure contemplation of the soul. do we really practice disenchantment through our forms of life and exercise of life? I would like to ask you this question how do we practice disenchantment to arrive at this manual then initially we do not does not exercise in disenchantment disenchantment it happens the project of the of the philosophy on which I worked it is really a philosophy which which explains what happens to me what happens to us and therefore it is 'in a certain way the project of a philosophy of incontingency and and disenchantment is already something that happens, that is to say that at one moment or another we find ourselves in existence facing to a wall that of the need to detach oneself from someone from something from a country or from an idea it is this it is precisely this moment when we must make the path which goes from attachment to detachment whether it is a separation of love, marital family, friendship or whether it is a country that we must leave because it no longer corresponds to our needs. his ideals to his political ideas and that we are for example chased away from them so if you want the question it is in the face of this wall which suddenly appears how do we build a path how do we build a path which will allow precisely we could say to forget but we could also say to detach ourselves but we could also say to experience loss and go elsewhere that's the first point the second point is it's that disenchantment does not exist without love and that disenchantment is just as universal as love but in fact in general we talk about love we talk about love stories philosophers really like to talk about love but it's much more difficult to talk about disenchantment because it's precisely an experience that we don't want to have, so it's an experience that we don't like to talk about and if I say that it's because that necessarily disliking only exists in relation to loving but in the fact of loving there is the fact of constructing a sharing there is the fact of constructing a between there is the fact of saying this quite crazy thing and often illusory that a + 1 = 2 not that a + 1 = 1 and and that is particularly illogical and therefore what I wanted to say on this is that to dislove is a path which should make it possible to inaugurate a relationship with oneself then since in a certain way we are obliged to mourn the loss of another, to mourn an experience together since we are obliged to detach ourselves well we also inaugurate a relationship with our own existence and so we are going to build something with ourselves we are going to return to ourselves and so in a certain way
Part 2: it is in this perspective that I have that I have really used we could say fouo because in fouo there is indeed the whole idea of caring for oneself it is a moment when it becomes imperative to care for oneself but when we read you we have the sensation that we could learn that despite everything you talk about Débora LVI for example in your book and the relationship with everyday life and we have the impression when we read you that ultimately no one and nothing prepares us precisely for this idea of the relationship with oneself before the test before arriving at the test why do we not consider this learning precisely what prevents us from transmitting in the parental bond for example the relationship with oneself as ultimately stability because that's what you're talking about our ability to experience the ordeal with a form of serenity how can we experience an ordeal like separation in particular when it is suffered in sep in serenity we are confronted in these these moments of sorrow we are confronted with pain we are confronted with something which relates to a tragic moment of existence it is really the image of the wall so how could we inaugurate a relationship with ourselves which is precisely serene what I mean by that is that I still started a lot uh from the question of the love experience and the end of the love experience or when we are confronted with the end of the love experience and all the more so when we don't see this end coming and well it's incomprehensible it's an incomprehensible moment example uh two people living together for a long time and it happens very frequently all of a sudden one leaves in the morning she has breakfast with her partner and in the evening she packs her bags and says I'm leaving and these are extremely common cases of separation it's incomprehensible it's incomprehensible for the person who therefore remains the the very moment it is that of the IMP possibility of explaining the situation and that is what interested me as a philosopher it is precisely this moment when we understand nothing and we are confronted if you want to extreme suffering and so I left in this perspective if you also want from my philosophical tradition that is to say from the fact that these incomprehensible moments refer not to what we are but to what we become with the trials of life the accidents of life it is a trial it is a trial of life and this trial of life must be able to be analyzed through a subject which is which is not a subject exclusively rational which is a subject one could say full of affect which is a subject confronted with its passions and when we speak of a subject confronted with its passions well we also speak of situations in which there are there are the incomprehensible in which there are contradictions in which there are ambiguities and at that moment well one must precisely be able to practice the path of disenchantment with everything that he will understand in terms of distance that we will try to take in terms of analysis of what we experienced from the silences of the troubles of the arguments in terms also of passionate investment on the side of the anger on the side of guilt on the side of what can also be a feeling of abandonment so it is really a question of making a path from an incomprehensible situation which is extremely painful but which deserves an analysis there you have taken the typical case where one of the two is actually abandoned and where it is therefore very difficult to prepare for the shock in the end but in your book you address lots of situations also of disenchantment even if this one takes a place important there is also the one who disloves and who leaves disenchantment who experiences the situation much better even though sometimes he is troubled by it and then there are also cultures in which we nourish the idea that something which stops must indicate a thank you to the fact of having existed and therefore having had the chance to live with someone and who disappears today but in our society we evoke IVA and all of you by talking about emotional capitalism and saying that 'so for now we our our society it also nourishes this disenchantment with lots of questions like for example morality which happens you say to yourself well all of a sudden there is one of the two who leaves uh but sometimes it doesn't go away but it is hurtful enough for us to have to leave and this is the case with infidelity for example but what makes us for example we can't say to ourselves that we have evolved that we have changed that we can progress together
Part 3: what is it that suddenly creates the rupture since ultimately that's what your book is about there are lots of things that create a break, what creates a break can be repeated arguments
it could be boredom it could be silence it could simply be the need to change
of life it can simply be the fact of falling in love with someone else there are
lots of situations me what I have what I really wanted to do in this book is
it's it's showing it's showing a process and showing a life path uh which corresponds to a type of in my opinion to any situation uh of disenchantment in any situation of disenchantment we must move from attachment to detachment and moreover without doubt that it is a very model of life in life very very very often you have to be able to move from attachment to detachment so I have I have I have done in a way this this path from attachment to detachment but I especially wanted to talk about the fact that uh disloving and it's really the verb disloving that interests me disloving it never happens easily it never happens easily by the fact even that we must dislove by the very fact that we must consider the end of a love it is never easy because you quote bolby in your book about attachment and typically in works on 'attachment we can clearly see an attachment
secure allows us to quietly detach ourselves from the maternal figure for example because the attachment will have been secure so what causes a break in the romantic attachment so that the detachment is not secure but in fact what interests me it's not so much what makes
rupture than the fact that there is rupture and therefore when we analyze the fact that there is rupture well we will try to see what are what are the figures of the rupture what are the moments of the rupture if you want 'it's unloved it consists in a certain way we can say it
a precise one of loving decomposition love we can analyze it in this way there are
individuals who compose themselves but it is also individuals who decompose and they are individuals who recompose themselves, that is to say that more and more in our societies, love is confronted with the end of life. love to the change of love and so on which Eva Ouse actually analyzes in a certain way through emotional capitalism and the fact that we ultimately change love more and more easily so if you want to do so the subject the point of the book is what makes a love break down and and and what is this process of decomposition what makes people separate and not love each other more but what makes people stay together even though they no longer love each other and what also makes someone able to continue to tell someone I love you when they no longer love that person and what also makes it possible to be unfaithful and then lie and break a relationship contract in which, for example, infidelity has not been
confessed which does not mean that we must be faithful at all costs, that's not what I'm saying but what
what I say is that in a process of love we owe forms of respect to the other we
must consider him as a person so we must think about the relationship we have with this
person and so in a certain way what interests me in this book if you like is a dismissal of love, that is to say that very often we think of love as is an expression that I use in the book, love is idealized, yes, we also think about it from the
tragic stories of Tristan and isut of Romeo and Juliet and many others so we are in a
idealization of love love is it is this loving passion which devours us or it is what
is eternal it is what will always continue and and I believe that one of the virtues uh of analysis
of disenchantment and the experience of disenchantment is that it also teaches us how often love is an illusion and how in love it is not reality that we see but it is
in fact something else and therefore when I analyze what I call a precise decomposition
in love what I also analyze is a return to reality in the analysis of love and
in this path you also lead us then the whole book converges as you have just demonstrated eh towards the warning signs and then after the reactions that we are going to have and
we arrive so you make a postscript saying but ultimately we must change love in any case why not but how to change it then that is to say that what I hear in
Part4: what you are telling me there in addition to what you have written is that ultimately it is a place
too intense suffering and that it deserves to be revisited well I think I'm saying it there
the banality of our lives really the banality of our lives uh these are uh love stories that follow one another with uh heartbreaks uh it can also be married lives family lives in which we often get very bored. there is a lot of silence that we make last because ultimately there are children because ultimately we still have friendship for each other et cetera but they are also all these stories well these moments these moments of anger these moments really we can't stand the other anymore we have enough where we have enough of the other so when I say when when I write an epilogue change love or change love well changing love already happens very often but what does it mean to change love well it means that when we consider a new love story after a first story of love we have we have constituted in its existential thread something like a heritage that is to say that we are no longer going to love in the same way there is there is in a way in the domain in the domain of love a whole a whole a whole learning a whole sentimental education it is also ultimately a book of sentimental education and therefore and therefore change love and well we will love more in the same way we will love more in the same way way because precisely we have we have had this experience of disillusionment we could say but also of learning reality and when we learn reality and obviously we love differently and it can be very concrete for example we can imagine that in the context of a heterosexual couple where relationships between women and men are not always so easy because we are still in regimes that are still very patriarchal or even when men sometimes have struggle with the success of women or we can also imagine that they sometimes have a desire for control over women's bodies finally et cetera et cetera and so in this perspective we can imagine that after a first love story a 2nd a third I don't know well we in a heterosexual couple we will consider living differently perhaps each one is is their place of residence we will invent we will invent things to because of the experience which was ours and so that's what changing love is changing love it's even more it's for me it's a program there we could almost say revolutionary that is to say that we are going we we're really going to try to we're really going to try to change to change the rules we can we can move from heterosexuality to
homosexuality we can we can consider in any case to get away from gender stereotypes we can really invent a relationship to love which means that love is
thought ultimately not as something which imprisons us, not as something which holds us back but as a form of emancipation and this form of emancipation is at the same time uh firstly a transformation of oneself it is a transformation of the bond of love and then it is perhaps ultimately the possibility of a collective transformation and of a new form of society basically to converge towards a reduction in suffering ah no it's not at all that not at all that is to say that I I I think that that that
that suffering is truly part of our existence; I think that the trials of life
they exist the accidents of life they exist and and and I think that there is something tragic
in our lives and that's what questioned me and interested me in this book
well I have worked a lot in the past on questions of vulnerability on the idea
that we are all more or less vulnerable to an ordeal like that of
of disenchantment it is a test of extreme vulnerability it is a test where
we can literally dive of course but what I wanted what I wanted to say
rather it is that the the the tests we can do something with them the tests they
can lead us to reconnect with life they can lead us to lives we could
say more intense because precisely what it is about is going through the trials
but we all go through trials more or less obviously but the crossing of
tests, that's what I wanted to inaugurate also in this text based on the idea that
life is not something linear, life is not steps of stairs that we
gravitates one after the other life life is dialectical when I say that life is
dialectic I mean that there are moments where we dive there are moments of
great negativity there are there are times of great sorrow there are times when we
is really at the bottom of his bed and you can't get out and then it starts again
it's starting again but it's not starting again in the restoration mode, that is to say,
Part5: that's very important
we do not return to a previous state we go elsewhere we go that is to say we transform ourselves
oneself and therefore it is a book it is a book on the transformation of oneself in the ordeal is that
what does not kill us makes us stronger or damages us precisely to converge towards a
transformation we are damaged subjects we are subjects in crisis and
I believe that I believe that it is necessary to say it today more than ever at a moment and this
are also subjects on which I worked for a while where neoliberalism always brings us
reminds us that we would be successful subjects, entrepreneurial subjects, subjects who subjects
who moves forward without ever looking back well no we are not that we are we are subjects at certain moments in crisis we are subjects at certain moments damaged we are subjects as could have been written ad dornoau we are lives mutilated so I I I believe that this book it is it is also there to do in a way one could almost say the surgery of one of the of the trials of life which makes us subjects in crisis or subjects damaged and what do we do when we are damaged what do we do because damaged also means the possibility of the abyss what do we do when we are very close to the abyss at the bottom it is our link to failure our bond to the test that you are questioning then precisely for me disenchantment is above all a test of life I I I would not put it is it is not necessarily a failure it is a test of life because because that failure uh it it implies it implies if you want something very very calculable a failure is something very objective I failed a competition I failed in recruitment we are not going to say we not going to say I failed to love we are not going to say I failed to be loved but on the other hand we are going to say and here ordinary words are very important we are going to say I went through an ordeal we are going to say I am going through an ordeal so therefore for me it is really a test and this test well it leads precisely to reconsider to reconsider one's life because in a certain way in as as I write in in the book dislove at a moment or another it's emptying the places it's moving we're moving eh we lose we lose a story so very precisely we empty the places and we must also empty we must empty the places of our attachments we must we must also reconsider our memory so yes we empty the premises and in the act of emptying the premises there is the fact at the same time of freeing up a space and when we free up a space we empty it and well there is also the possibility of rearranging precisely to arrange again this will be my last question Fabien brugè in your book you also talk about the importance of the community of social bonds which accompanies us or not in a situation of disenchantment and your book still evokes this idea of the necessity today 'today for everyone to seek a form of assent and we see clearly through social networks for example to seek to become one with a community does disliking also ultimately put us in a situation of exclusion from the community because love takes precedence in particular on this showcase that Eva etous speaks about which is that of the representation of social networks no it's it's not really my point my my when I when I when I come back to the me I care a lot about the notion of community I care a lot about the notion of community as a community of support in the perspective of being able to rebuild oneself to be able to transform oneself in the face of the test of disenchantment and and therefore it seems to me that from this point of view, from the point of view of what I will call social supports, I would say first of all that there is a lot of injustice, that is to say that we have in these ordeals more or less of relatives uh who are there we have more or less friends we have more or less professional support and then after we have help uh psychoanalytic psychiatric psychological or not so when when I use the relationship with the community is rather in a positive sense, that is to say, it is to say that the rearrangement of existence is also done with the links that we have more or less around oneself and that therefore from this point of view what is at stake in the fact of disloving well it is also a power of links that is to say that on the one hand we must detach ourselves of one attachment but on the other there are other links, friendship links, family links, professional links which will also allow you to come back to yourself and be able to find self-esteem because the big question also of disenchantment the great risk of disenchantment particularly when we suffer it is the loss of self-esteem I am obviously thinking of Elena's book feranteé les jours de monondamandon this book where the narrator describes the moment when she suddenly finds herself all alone with these children because her husband has met someone else who therefore explains to her that he is leaving overnight and in addition he victimizes himself by saying that it is not very easy for him and so on
La journaliste n'a pas l'air de connaître l'amour, ou d'avoir connu l'amour....Elle pose des questions étranges...
En fait, je pense que c'est davantage une question d'expérience / parcours différent.
Personnellement, je trouve très logiques les questions de la journaliste, surtout à la fin, lorsqu'elle demande comment préparer la fin de l'amour.
Fabienne ne cesse de répéter avec des mots différents : « on ne peut pas se préparer à quelque chose qui arrive d'un coup ».
Mais la fin d'un amour est rarement véritablement inattendue. Elle est généralement précédée d'un manque de réelle communication et réflexion.
À mon avis, vivre sur un nuage rose a plus à voir avec les hormones, les vœux pieux et l'espoir, qu'ils soient ou non façonnés par le passé de quelqu'un.
Mais je suis complètement d'accord qu'un fin abrupte d'une telle chose peut conduire à se reconnecter avec soi-même et ses attentes désirs les plus profonds.