I did this video off the cuff so I feel I couldn’t clarify some everything, but overall my point is: while there is something to be said about marketing and that a movie can’t be everything to everyone, ultimately good writing and interesting characters is what draws people in regardless of gender or even the genre of the movie. What we have now reminds me of what happened with Catwoman (2004), where people used the film to proclaim that no one wanted to see a female superhero movie, completely ignoring the fact that the film itself was garbage,
The trouble is that the phrase meant something that is the opposite of how it is interpreted. A STRONG character doesn't mean a POWERFUL character. It means one that can be remembered. Something with characteristics that mean you will recognise that character. You can have a weak man in a story that people remember because he is well written. "Of Mice and Men" has Lennie Small. Lennie is mentally disabled. You come away from that story remembering him. He is a tragic character, without much power in the world. BUT THE WRITING IS STRONG. "The Glass Menagerie" has a lot of fragility in the characters, that's the point, that is what it is all about, being fragile as glass. Yet it is incredibly popular because it is based on real life, and it rings true. Most people have personal experience with men and women as fragile as these people. Sometimes you can love someone, and not be able to save them. I like the current entry in wikipedia but yt gets upset if you post links, so look it up, especially under Autobiographical elements. A writer of any type should understand that increasing the power level doesn't make the character STRONG. Here's a classic example: God-man sat on his throne. Somewhere in the cosmos, there was trouble. He blinked, and there was no more. Nobody will care about this character because it is not well written. The power level is irrelevant. But if you look at the MCU, that is what they keep doing, over and over, and when it doesn't work, they blame the audience.
You hit the nail on the head with your observation that women don't go watch these movies because they're simply not interested in the kind of heroic fantasy that Western comics represent, and are a fundamentally male preference. Just like you don't market romance movies to men, you don't market heroic fantasy to women.
I 100% agree. You mentioned Legally Blonde. Its one of the best examples of how to write a likable female lead. Or Buffy, if we want to talk about Superhero Characters (yes, thats what she is). Why does Hollywood try to force badly written, unrelatable characters onto the audience? Characters that act and look (sadly) like men? Why can there never be a strong male co lead in a female lead action/superhero movie, who is on par with the female protagonist? There are dozends of examples, going back for decades, but modern Hollywood just wants to force something new onto us. And cause we do not like it, its our fault!
"where people used the film to proclaim that no one wanted to see a female superhero movie, completely ignoring the fact that the film itself was garbage" Here's the difference. Judging the audience: "where people used the film to proclaim that no one wanted to see a female superhero movie" Judging the film: " completely ignoring the fact that the film itself was garbage"
I will actually give a perfect example of this Through The Mirror a Mickey Mouse animated shortfilm from 1936 I'm only 25 years meaning age doesn't matter as the quality is still there almost 85 years later the short film in question I watched for the very first time very early this year like January or February kind of early it’s amongst my top 3 for most creative not only that but also very inventive
A lot try to wrap an Ideal or theology in there characters. for some of them the feel like a robot in a fleash suit. You have to touch on people be human cause like the song I am olny human after all.
i'm a white guy and my absolute favourite favourite film when i was little was cool Runnings. no one in that movie ever looked like me. had me going round putting on a Jamaican accent telling people to kiss me lucky egg. no one was ever like he cant watch that film, there's just no one he can relate to in it. that attitude literally only started in like 2016.
exactly this i read a book that has a series as well can't remember the name of it but I read it first while reading dune and also the Hyperion tales with the Hyperion shrike and i enjoyed recommended it to people and 90% of people despite liking complete different genres when they read it tell me that's a good book even if it isn't their cup of tea as it were.
@@lordsathariel4384 yes those are great books. Add “Ender’s game” and “Speaker for the deads” to the list. Non sci-fi friends who read these loved them. They have soul, a strong story and amazing twists and turns. Hyperion is amazing btw.
Back in the day we didn't label Ellen Ripley as a "Strong female character". We called it her the badass from Aliens. She didn't need the label. They didn't have to sell it as such. It was, here's a great story with really well written and acted characters.
And most significantly, Ripley was not originally conceived as a woman There was just Lieutenant Ripley in the script, the idea to make the character a woman came to Ridley Scott at the last moment and Sigourney Weaver was not interested in this role (there is an interview where she talks about it) but as a result, this role became iconic and canonical for her
She was just a great character. I saw that movie when it came out and no one was expecting her to make it to the end. Everyone thought Tom Skerrit was going to be the last one standing. And in the second one was even better.
Just to add, what made Ripley or Sarah Connor great is that their gender was irrelevant, they did what they had to do to survive being killed by the alien or in case of Sarah Connor keeping her son alive from the terminator. It made them believable and likeable. Put the story front and centre, bring in an agenda, you risk screwing it up.
@@sreedharanbaskaradass9896the problem is that in certain cases, the identity of the person IS important to the story. I didn’t really love captain marvel. I thought it was fine but, imagine if the story was about the sexism and SA in the military? Would you make the argument that the gender of the main character wouldn’t matter? Or in Falcon and the Winter Soldier, the WW2 veteran tells Sam about feeling exploited and tossed aside by the country he fought for and was discriminated against…doesn’t that matter to the story? Ripley was written to be a man and was later casted as a woman. That’s a fine story to tell. However, having identity centered stories is also needed and it doesn’t make those specific stories “bad”. think of the Hunger Games. Katniss Everdeen's story wouldn't be the same if she was a man. The way she played the media game compared to Peeta was different. There's even a part where Peeta lies and says Katniss is pregnant in an attempt to save her from the games and the public gets outraged (caring more about the lives of babies in the womb than the lives of children force to kill each other for entertainment). Think of legally blonde, Jessica jones, watchmen (hbo show). None of those characters would be the same if their identities weren’t what they are. Because those struggles were specific to their stories.
@@gammarayos Again, Ripley was written as a man. In some cases, sexism is part of a characters story just like racism or classism. It doesn’t have to be but it can be. It can change how the character is treated and how they view the world. You can’t say that gender wasn’t an issue for Clarice in Silence of the Lambs or Jessica Jones. Having Captain America be a white man fighting for the US during WWII would have been a different story if he was black. However, it can still be a universally loved story because the character is fighting obstacles.
Thing is in the past strong female characters were pretty much common. Men loved female led franchises such as Aliens, Terminator, Tomb Raider and more. The difference is that back then these female heroes didn’t need to tear down men in order to stand tall themselves. Todays writers just insert what they see as the correct gender, race and other surface level characteristics and just leave it at that. I love strong female characters but just inserting a woman into a lead role doesn’t magically make her a great character
@@ThomasDrishdrop in female heroes that act just like men aren’t strong female characters. Real strong women take advantage of their feminine traits just as much as strong men take advantage of of their masculine traits. All I’ve seen is total rejection of feminine characteristics in the last decade as if it’s toxic femininity or something.
Bro I was going too mention how good Characters , Ripley was in Aliens and Sarah Connor was in Terminator . Just perfect Ripley would sacrifice it all just too save a Cat or a Child , same with Connor and her son , there not written as good as they where back in the days
Nail on the head. It feels a lot like many of these writers that try to just DEI material has no understanding how to write for the actual inclusive perspective. Personally, I would have loved Ms Marvel to have been good, but it felt like the writers were just making low hanging jokes of the Pakistani teen and family perspective.
Two words: Ororo Munroe. She was the best written character that went from a normal family girl to a street pick-pocketer to a worshiped GODDESS to finally a x-men. She is so full and developed that she was a whole model not only to other characters inside the comics (Rogue herself admired Storm control of her powers) to many MANY people in the real world. AND SHE WAS A BLACK WOMAN. FROM AFRICA. AND PEOPLE DIDNT GIVE A DAMN.
Born in 1986, watched the 90's cartoon and LOVED Storm, didnt see skin colour at all, didnt care she was a woman, loved because she was badass with a good story. the current problem is people are know SHOVING it in your face, like a religion, religion is fine but if you shove it peoples faces they tend to get annoyed.
Jessica Jones had some scenes with a teeny bit of "wahmen power" energy but it was totally forgivable because it wasn't as bad as anything today and in the end it was a VERY well written series.
I couldn't get into JJ mainly because I hate the whole "mastermind manipulator guy" stories. David Tenant ruined it for me. I liked JJ in The Defenders because it was a different story. But then, Iron Fist wasn't horrible in that either. His stand-alone show was trash.
Jessica Jones is a great character my issue is the creator's stupid excuses as to why they nerfed Jessica and Luke's relationship when in the comics they get married and have a daughter
Having Jessica get married would had added an "element of patriarchy" to the show. Can't have that. Especially when you consider JJ ran during the years when SJW feminism was at it's peak.@@CharlesChristinaWH
As a comic book fan The some of the popular characters are Black Canary, Harley Quinn, Raven , Storm, Jean Grey and Rogue All women all different races and from different backgrounds And the one character I've seen men comic fans want in the dcu is vixen a black female superhero I fully agree with you
You know it's cr*p when the excuse is selectively rolled out. Wonder Woman does fine so nobody talks about misogyny. Black Panther does fine so nobody talks about racism. The Marvels fails and suddenly the fans are a bunch of *istaphobes*. The fact that the industry has been allowed to get away with audience blaming is the reason why it's in the state that it is.
i asked people i know what comic books heros they wanted to see in live action for dc or marvel i was told the normal picks like dr doom but i also got a few like lobo Ravager/rose Wilson and Mister Terrific. people don't care in comics if the hero or villain is a man a women or a overgrown weed people just want decent stories yet it seems Hollywood forget this every decade@@CharlesChristinaWH
Disney's choice to try to turn Marvel and Star Wars into a 'girl brand' was really odd and it's costing them. As you mention, they wouldn't do that with Barbie or other female-led media. Like JB I'm a tomboy and I've always known most of the things I like cater to a mostly-male audience and that's fine.
Really, It was par for the course culturally to label ANY male dominated space into a hub of inceldom and misogyny, whether we're talking clubs boy scouts to videogames. Even in politics, remember the term Bernie Bros, GameStop stock collusion, and the trucker protest?
That's only because suits think because it's a "boy's brand" girls don't interact with it and they loosing potential money from that. So if they put a female lead into it and market it ss "now also for girls" they get more money. The only readon why they don't do it with "girl brands" is because they have no idea how could they make boys interested something consudered girlish.
There is no problem with the next great Jedi being a female as long as you do a good job and with respect to the characters and lore. But Disney's idea of making a female Star Wars lead was by destroying every established loved character and basically taking a big one on their heads while creating a mess of a story on top with characters that come and go and with bad scriptwriting scenes like Jedi swords that will cut your own hand off if used and silly feminist messages like telling Han Solo how his ship works or telling the guy to let go off her hand etc.
Beatrice Kiddo a.k.a The Bride from Kill Bill is an example of a great female character from an action film. She's extremely well written and a very nuanced compelling character. Played excellently by Uma Thurman.
Thinking back, I never once thought of Beatrice Kiddo as an op, mary sue, boss chick. She was giving everyone the business. This is a very good example of a female lead action movie done right.
@@teastrainer3604 to be fair, nobody says that about a 'strong dude' either. It's more like, wow he/she looks cool, I wanna see this. I thought wonder woman looked quite badass ngl
I remember very well that back in the day, especially after Age of Ultron, Marvel's fandom were begging Kevin Feige to make a solo Black Widow film, and Wanda/Scarlet Witch fanbase were always huge, no wonder WandaVision stayed in the top10 most watched shows from January 2021 till January 2022!!! Like, her show was massive. And back in the X-Men days, fans were making petitions for Storm to gain a solo movie too, and most of those people demanding that were fanBOYS. Did Black Widow, a popular character, gained her movie while she was still alive? No! Did Wanda gained a movie after her blow of popularity due to WandaVision? No! She was turned into a poorly written villain. Did Storm ever got any movie or any hype from Marvel? No! What did we get instead? Captain Marvel, a character that was NEVER popular, that no one asked for, and that is honestly annoying. First Wonder Woman movie? A hit, amazing film. Alita? Sleeper hit, amazing film. Hermione Granger? Beloved character, more than the protagonist himself. People love characters like Tsunade, Sasha Braus, Helen Parr, Violet Parr, Okoye... All female characters in action movies / boy-coded movies because they are well written, they don't revolve around "fighting toxic masculinity" or "just being a woman" and they really mean something to people. People don't like characters like Captain Marvel or MCU She-Hulk because they are just not good and they were not made with good purpose.
I grew up first with Emma Peal, a sexy secret agent siren who used her wits, sex appeal & fighting skills to join with Steed, (the bowler hat wearing, brilliant secret agent) in the original Avengers British TV show. They worked together perfectly to defeat the bad guys. Then (my personals favorite) , Xena, Warrior Princess. She was utterly awesome, but had a soft protective side, brought out by meeting & joining with a female companion. Her story was developed over the series & everyone loved it. Princess Leah was as brave & important as any guy in Star Wars. Then, of course Ellen in Alien, Sarah Conners, & the list goes on. Wonder Woman fell in love with Steve & that made her more relatable None of them were preachy, mysandrist Mary Sues who have to tear down the men to lift themselves up. They had character development, grew as they made mistakes, learned the hard way, & had their own heros journeys. Women often worked together WITH men, & that made the stories much more interesting & relatable . Disney has lost that entirely, refusing to give us sexy, strong men & just pump out soulless, preachy MarySue characters that appeal to no one. Then they blame the audience (men) when these ridiculous movies bomb. I really enjoy your videos, thanks. I'm glad I found your channel.
Well said. I feel like outside of twitter, people inherently get this. It’s really obvious why no one connects with so many of these oddly written female characters.
There were so many female lead characters I loved just like Buffy, Red Sonja, Xena, That lady from ghost whisperer (that series gets more and more nuanced as the seasons progressed etc.) so many great actresses and characters ❤
Many female characters have been very poorly written in recent years & it's quite often intentional. This is in order to make them girl bosses who feel the need to make men look bad in order for women to look good. Neither men nor women really want that kind of divisive content & never have. The result of this happening for so long is that some people now think that audiences don't care for female characters. I would say that both writers & studios need to take responsibility for that. It's sad because up until the last few years, there were strong male & female characters for decades that were beloved by many.
This was very good analysis, and I understand what you’re saying! My wife and daughter feel the same way. More than anything they want good storytelling. Stop trying to appeal to us with characters like Captain Marvel. That can be summed up with “I’m super powerful. I never fail. I don’t need anybody.” That is actually not a character that most women can identify with.
Ripley from Alien 2 has an amazing character arc. She is so well written where they use her feminine traits to enhance here story and arc, going from a shell shocked person and growing into a true hero.
Leia was kinda feminist in the fact she made Han and Luke like idiots in certain situations. Like when they escaped the holding cells in the Death Star.
@@thatHARVguy I never saw how “class” was the fight or flight attitude in that scene. Even then the people online would have accused that as putting down men.
I thought I didn't like Rey, but then I recall all the powerful female characters I liked in media then it occured to me I didn't like how poorly written she was and how she was written to be too overpowered.
@@thatHARVguy Rey was obviously a skilled fighter and survivor they started off good but they dropped the ball when they overlooked that even though she is powerful in the force. Powerful force users always required some form of training to hone their abilities. Anakin Skywalker needed to be trained what makes her exempt from that? Because she touched and downloaded all of Ben Solo's training? Such B.S
@@AwakenedJusThey rather make women that seemingly have no flaws and just overcome any problems easily. Wonder Woman was liked way more because her character was kind and courteous to men in the film. If captain Marvel carol actually showed her motivation for wanting to be a hero and was kind and courteous to men and women in the movie and Brie never insulted middle age men and they used her to maybe unite men and women hero characters to maybe stop a skrull Invasion that would of made for a better movie then the Marvels.
@@AwakenedJus ...And she put in none. I still think the character is salvageable though. Same with Captain Marvel,..hell even She-Hulk. It's all in the writing. The problem is Disney just doesn't know what to do with the IP. The Netflix director of Once Piece tried to do it his own way,..the Japanese creator said do it the way I made it or I walk... Netflix said ok we'll do it your way...surprise..huge success!
You mentioned Legally Blonde as a film you say that a lot of guys you talk to love. I am one of those guys. It's so damn funny and charming and it's such a product of it's time but not in a bad way. That's definitely a film we dont see anymore and if we did get that now it would probably be awful.
I love that movie too as a dude. It helps when a female lead acts like a...well...female. The problem is all the modern female leads got all the feminity sucked out of them to where they become cheap copies of men. Neither men or women want to see that. Relatable characters and a good story will always attract an audience. Modern Hollywood got Neither of those.
And Elle really goes through the fucking ringer in that film once she gets to Harvard. Her ex boyfriend treats her like shit. His fiancee and her friends bully her. Her teachers don't like her. One kicks her out of class and the other comes onto her under the pretenses that she's doing well and wants to congratulate her, whereas she gets blamed for it by Vivian as her being in the wrong. But despite all of these hits, she still prevails. She studies her ass off. She gets into Harvard and then gets her act together when everyone doubts her. And then she wins the case, not because of the status quo, but because of herself and her knowledge of both worlds. And after all of that, she's the speaker of her class, best friends with Vivian, offered a prestigious job and has a guy in her corner ready to propose. It's a wonderful arc for her. It's why I love her so much.
Elle is an EXTREMELY strong character. Nobody respects her. Nobody takes her seriously. Why? Because she's a "girly" girl. She uses cute outfits when everyone else wears gray, smiles when berated, always looks at the bright side. She's everything these hack writers consider to be "evil" or "weak". In the movie, she wins through kindness and staying true to herself. She doesn't once put anyone down, ever, because she doesn't need to. She has been one of my favorite heroines ever since I was a little girl along with the animated Cinderella because their emotional strength and intelligence far eclipses any modern "feminist" husk that puts others down to make herself seem better. I'm sorry, but that's not being strong. That's being a bully. I don't know, it's pretty ironic that the mean girl of Legally Blonde acts exactly like what hack writers call 'strong', when her bitterness is a mask for her insecurities. Furthermore, it's insulting that they keep equating 'strong' to 'stereotypically masculine'. Thanks, but no thanks. Elle >>>> these failed self-inserts
I recently watched blue eye samurai on netflix, the main character is a woman and she is written very well, it honestly shocked me, it really shouldn't but because of how alot of mordern female characters are written i went in with assumptions of how the mc would be written and my expectations were subverted, she's a badass swordsman but still struggles and can't get everything done by herself, she started off harden and little emotion but over time you see why she is like this and as she starts caring for others she starts showing more of herself.
As a white, heterosexual, English man I can say with confidence that Ripley, Sarah Conner and even Wonder Woman are three of my favourite protagonists of all time! They're not even characters I dream about F-ing, I just love them as people!
shame gal doesn't and is a Israel propaganda machine. after that interview of her discussing the ceasefire and her past in the IDF wonder woman would look at her in disgust.@@rainbowslushy223
The issue is that Hollywood is going against Joseph Campbell's "The hero's journey" and "Hero of 1000 faces" concepts that have been proven to work well even if it's twerked to fit a certain type of hero As I'm a pro wrestling fan too, the main goal of any hero is that the audience has to feel for the hero and has to struggle and the villain should be their ying to their yang I mean I've seen really bad men and women "heros" especially in the mid 2000s and all of the 2010s especially in the horror and action genre
underrated female action characters who are _actually_ "strong"-- •Sarah walker from chuck •Selene from underworld •Arya Stark + Brienne from GoT •rita vertasky from Edge of Tomorrow •Ilsa from MissionImpossible •Nikita + Alex from nikita •Trinity from the Matrix •Shaw + Root from person of interest •Letty from Fast and Furious
Wonder Woman, Vi and Jinx from Arcane, Rita from Edge of Tomorrow, Neytiri from Avatar, Black Widow, Jyn Erso from Rogue One, The Bride from Kill Bill, Alita from Battle Angel, Hit Girl from Kick Ass, River and Zoe from Serenity, the list goes on and on.
JB. You know your success is growing when you get over 200 likes in 1hr. I am genuinely happy that your channel got traction to the “ true believers “. You have been a REAL ONE since DAY ONE ..THANK YOU FOR BLESSING US THE VIEWERS . ❤❤❤❤❤
"The Marvels" flopped? (I'm sitting here in stunned silence.) The sky is blue, the grass is green, water is wet, and "The Marvels" is cr@p. If there was only a way to become rich by predicting the obvious...
For me, strong character is Carol from The Walking Dead, coming from abusive relationship and loss of a daughter to woman who saved her people multiple times aka Terminus. And unlike Carol who died early in comics, Melissa McBride created new and empowering Carol with Kirkman (writer of TWD comics) praising a change and Carol survived until the end of show. Also Melissa herself said in interview few years ago that she was getting letters from fans, both MEN and WOMEN who themselves were in abusive relationship and Carol was inspiration for them to leave and/or get help. And from what I know from fans who met her, Melissa is always moved and grateful that Carol was their source of empowerment. TWD writers of show have done many mistakes over time show was in air but Carol is one few things done right and better than in comics.
When you mentioned legally blonde so true! I went to film school and in one of my classes my teacher asked if we wanted to see the movie. A lot of guys in my class where like “HELL YEEESS” it was cool to see it’s a movie well loved
Good characters are good characters. If you recognise something of yourself, or something to aspire to, or shame and guilt you recognise then ANYONE can connect with a character. What modern writers have done to brilliant characters is shameful.
I think when they say women killed the MCU, they mean the producers and the actresses spewing hate out on tweets saying it’s toxic Men that are small demographic that need to just shut up that’s not what you say to a fan and whatever you think of Henry Cavill and they asked him about toxic fans. He said I don’t consider them toxic I consider them passionate fan and they have the right to think whatever they want.
Misogyny gets thrown around a lot so it’s gonna lose its meaning and people are just gonna say “f**k it, I am that I am.” I liked strong female characters that are in touch with their femininity like Elle from Legally blonde as she wanted to prove to everyone that she’s more than a bimbo. I also liked the Beatrix Kiddo aka The Bride from Kill Bill as she worked hard to earn the respect of Pai Mei, a Kung-Fu Grandmaster who doesn’t have a high opinion on western people, particularly the women. Nowadays these strong female characters are written to prove they can be better than men at being masculine when really they are just insufferable.
Even if a woman is masculine there's nothing wrong with that. Everyone loved Dizzy from Starship Troopers and she was masculine as fuck. It's about how they're written. If they're written as people they're neat. If they're written as self inserts it's annoying. This goes for both masculine AND feminine, MEN AND WOMEN.
I remember reading X-Men comics in the early 90's (like most kids) Wolverine was my favourite of course but Storm was a close second. Not because she was a strong black female, but because she was a well written character with flaws, goals and earned her teammates respect and ultimately being a leader of the X-Men at times and her own team. Film and literature are filled with amazingly tough female characters. They had good creators not pushing agendas but ideas. Good video btw!
The fact that they openly and proudly hate on men is a huge factor. I'm surprised you didn't mention that. Men don't want to go to movies that lecture to them about how "evil" and "bad" and "worthless" they are. We don't want to see a movie where the women are openly and vitriolically hateful, condescending and even physically abusive towards men. Ask yourself: would *YOU* wanna see a movie that does nothing but s#!t on *YOUR* demographic? It's hardly rocket science.
12:01, like the animated Mulan who actually has to work and struggle throughout her training to become capable of fighting in the Chinese Army. Or Mira Nova from Buzz Lightyear of Star Command who is an overpowered character but needs to acquire a certain level of skill and focus from working with Buzz and his team
God, thank you for this video. I've always been more drawn to boyish brands too. I liked the adventure and the more carefree spirit male characters had. It was an escape from the somewhat stringent world girls are thrust into. I already live that life, so being a part of male stories offered an escape. Having said that, I still do love girly stuff! I love a good romcom, poppy girl music, I even loved Barbie! But those things were aimed directly at my more feminine interests. I knew what I was getting with Barbie, just like I knew what I was getting with Infinity War. I'm so happy to have stumbled on your channel! It's so nice to find other women like me. I feel like we're the hidden voice that no one wants to actually hear. Thank you again for making this video, definitely checking out all your other stuff!
Very good and based take. The problem is, the people writing the films aren't trying to reflect reality and human experience and thus be relatable, they are activists that are trying to somehow change reality by pushing a certain vision.
The two of my favorite well written strong female action characters are indeed Ripley from Aliens and Sarah Connor from T2. But you can find strong women characters in many genres. Being strong doesn’t necessarily mean they are physically strong, but mentally able to overcome the obstacles that’s imposed onto them. Struggling to come out on top is main reason we can relate to these characters, regardless of gender.
I personally tend to be biased _in favor of_ female action heroes. When people try to say crap about nobody wanting female action heroes, it pisses me off. They undermine the very thing I want to see more of! You're exactly right; it's not that nobody likes female heroes, it's that nobody likes badly written characters.
5:07, I would say that I like d Wonder Woman for her character arc of going from believing that humans only did bad things to each other due to external manipulation to realizing that the reality is that we’re an extremely flawed species but in the end decides we’re worth protecting regardless “they are everything you say they are but they are also so much more”.
Lara Croft Storm (X-men Comics versions) Buffy the Vampire Slayer Mikasa Ackerman (Attack on Titan) Furiosa Hermione Granger Elastigirl (Incredibles) Zoe Walsh (Firefly) Sailor Moon Kim Possible Clarke Griffin (The 100) It's best to branch out to smaller TV shows, cartoons, anime, and video games too. They all have well developed female characters outside of big budget films.
Your perspective on this topic is actually the most insightful so far. I think many people fail to recognize that female action stars have been here for a long time, Angelina Jolie, Sigourney Weaver, Jennifer Lawrence, Kate Beckinsale, Mila Jovovich, Michelle Rodriguez, Charlize Theron, and we can go on and on with the list. They have made great movies many of them have lead action movies. So most of the marvel issue or superhero movie issue today is mostly that is trying to appeal to women and alienating the male audience and it turns out that women are still not interested in the genre and man don’t care about those characters.
Great video and great point , I'm so tired of people saying that . I grew up in the 80s and always loved strong well written characters from wonder woman , aliens , terminator , grace jones from Hercules , Red Sonia and so on . And they always ignore female fans like you who don't like them . They only go after male fans.
In Aliens the most important scene in the movie is when she was asking for something to do and showed she was qualified to run the loader. It's a 2 minute scene. Without it, you couldn't have the fight scene at the end. You would ask how does she knows how to run it. That's what they will do nowadays .
It was in the 90s and was a spinoff from Hercules. But when they were on screen at the same time they didn't upstage each other, both characters had their own strengths and own weaknesses and they complimented each other. You can't have that dynamic today, the strong woman must always make the male character look like an absolute joke.
Please don’t forget Buffy, at least the TV show. The show continues to be hugely popular. The fandom is dedicated and loyal, and the hero is strong, vulnerable and hugely flawed, and entirely human. And please no comments regarding the creator and show runner, I know he’s a dirt bag. Buffy doesn’t live and breath because of he who shall not be named, Buffy lives because it’s brilliant.
Buffy was also actually feminine! I remember one time she punched a vamp in the face and broke her nail and she was far more worried about her nail than the vampire trying to kill her 😂😂 and that femininity never took away from her strength!! Buffy was just a normal teenaged girl with normal teenaged girl problems, who ALSO happened to be a badass vampire slayer. They don’t write characters like her anymore.
Completely agree and the two in your thumbnail are the perfect examples for your argument. My take is that the best female characters (actually, just characters in general) are a mix of strength and vulnerability, it makes them relatable and easy to root for. Make them perfect in every way and they're just annoying and outside most peoples real life experience.
What the polling turnout shows is that the misogyny narrative is a farce, and that these studios are severely out of touch with women. Also that captain Marvel character has gone through so many transitions that it's hard to follow and care about.
I have been a Marvel fan since I was young. I completely agree with your points. It's all about character development, acting, and a well developed story. I LOVED these strong women in their roles during the MCU's heyday: Pepper Potts, Frigga, Black Widow, Agent Maria Hill, Hela, Valkyrie, Scarlet Witch, Shuri, Okoye, Peggy Carter, Lady Sif, Gamora, Nebula, Jessica Jones. It's not at all about not liking strong women.
If you look at the movie Kill Bill, it was loaded with "Strong Female Characters" and "Diversity", but the biggest difference between Kill Bill and The Marvels is for Kill Bill, those Strong Female and Diverse Characters are deeply woven into the story, where as in The Marvels' Strong Female and Diverse Characters ARE the story, just like everything Marvel nowadays which it's shallow, lame and boring, plus they expect us to sit through 2-3 hours of it.
I agree. People don't care if characters are gay or trans. All they care about is a good story and well written characters. Alot of people tend to associate something being "woke" with being bad.
Thank you for your sensible take on this movie. People don't reject female leads in movies they reject terrible movies. Plus as time moves on audiences taste change and the movie studios has over saturated us with super hero genre type movies.
Im just glad you said it for us. Women just arent into these movies. Comics were kinda a boy thing, and the women who like it, liked it the way it was. Also i appreciate you even pointing out Carol Danvers was mid as a character in her own source material. I genuinely hope you inspire more women to actually speak up, as fans of comics and tell them whay you'd actually like to see on the screen.
I've long been saying there's a difference between a character who is strong who happens to be female and a character who is strong because she's female.
For someone who spoke unscripted and off the cuff, this was the best take on the Marvel's movie that I've heard. Well done! Good origin stories are key elements to a great character.
Yes, I completely agree. I grew up on princess Jasmine and Xena, I love strong female characters. I love lesbian relationship in Legends of Tomorrow. Just make good things, don't make bad things, that's all about it.
💯....issue is that Marvel doesn't have true fans writing story lines anymore. Changing the story line to make a social point ruins the concept of the character.
It comes down to two things: 1) people don't like bad writing, 2) shitting on half (or more) of your potential audience is NEVER a good idea. You can't build up your new female characters and get people to like them by crapping all over your popular male characters. Nor by turning every male into a complete bastard. In Birds of Prey EVERY male character was a scumbag, even the old men and young boys. For some strange reason that didn't make me like the female characters more. It just made me hate the writers, director, producer, and studio. Not because I'm a male, but because I have a functioning brain and I don't like to have my intelligence insulted with writing that is so incredibly bad.
There’s this weird trend going on where a company deems their own consumer base to be not good enough for them for ideological reasons, and actively tries to alienate it. It’s not working, they’re selling products, customers aren’t interested in being reeducated or openly mocked.
Well said, "women super-hero = film bomb" is a really simplistic take, I think writers rather are just phoning it in when writing female characters. I was a big fan of Cara-Dune (Gina Carano), even if I think Gina isn't the best actor, because she really does kick ass, and her character had exactly the level of confidence and yet world-weariness an ex-special forces soldier would have. Similarly, Brienne of Tarth is in my top 3 favourite characters in Game of Thrones, on top of being a skilled warrior, she carries herself with a dignified nobility, while never being arrogant about her capabilities. Anyway, I guess the point I'm making is that when the writing's there, so are the compelling characters, female or not.
Brienne of Tarth was wonderful but Care-Dune was a non-entity as a character. She was all muscle and no personality. A lot of that is due to Gina Carano just being a bad actor. Sure she looked the part but that was her only qualification. When Bill Burr is upstaging you, it's time to consider a new career.
I watched a netflix series called unbelievable. It's quite tough subject matter, but the show has three female leads, and the actresses are absolutely amazing. The show is so well written. Some of the best acting I have ever seen.
Funny how Arcane and Blue Eyed Samurai manage to write women and be massively successful. Maybe its just Hollywood that trash actual well written female lead scripts. Oh and Emily Blunt in The English was mind blowing.
Really appreciate your take on this. Thought it was just me, bad writing is a real turn off. Doesn’t matter what your lead is, Bad writing doesn’t work. Thank you for making this vid.
I'm a girl who likes male brands and IPs too. I am one of the very few females who love slashers, for instance. I agree that if you make a good movie, it doesn't matter who your lead is... People will like it.
RUclips just recommended me your channel for the first time and I’m so glad, because it’s nice to listen to someone with an actually balanced take. I pretty much agree with everything you said in this video. Female superheroes aren’t the problem, and the fanbase isn’t misogynistic. We just want well written characters. I, too, don’t understand why people seem to feel offended by the fact that Marvel is a guy brand. It just… is. That is more than okay. It doesn’t mean women aren’t welcome, it just means we aren’t the main target audience. It’s just a fact. Which is evident by the fact that women still don’t watch (bad) superhero movies even if they’re trying to appeal to them, but they flock to see Barbie. People just tend to like what they like. I didn’t go watch Barbie personally because I wasn’t a Barbie girlie as a child but even I felt tempted because it definitely was appealing to the side of me that loves girly things. The point is: don’t alienate your actual fanbase. Women wouldn’t have liked a masculine Barbie movie, so why not keep the same energy the other way around? How is it okay to try and make a guy brand girly, but not the other way around? Not to mention that yes, precisely, we women who do love Marvel love it as it is. I don’t want it to change for a weird perceived notion that they have of what I want from my stories. Sure I love female superheroes. I was always partial to Kitty Pride growing up, personally. But my favorite is Cap. I just love Steve so much and I find him inspiring to me despite the fact that I’m a woman. We can’t just relate to people on the basis of gender, we’re deeper than that. Unfortunately, I think these writers have forgotten that. It’s just sad.
You know what is really crazy? They say that men were sexist for not seeing this or disliked it. Oddly, it was women who were in the minority who went to see Captain Marvel and The Marvels. They are basically trying to make these properties that attract mainly men to attract the Barbie/Taylor Swift concert movie/Twilight fanbase which is generally women. They are basically trying to fit in a square peg into a circle hole. Though a lot of these women did go see the first Aquaman only to see Jason Momoa without his shirt and wet.
This is what I have been saying for years. Who here hates Nancy from aNoES? Who here hates Laurie Strode from Halloween? Who here hates Sarah Connor from T2? Who here hates Leia from Star Wars? Etc. It’s about how they are written and brought to life that matters. Whether it be male or female a badly written character is a bad character.
Farah Karim from the call of duty: Modern Warfare 2019 is a well written female soldier character. A rebel army leader from a war middle eastern country of Urzikstan.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
I did this video off the cuff so I feel I couldn’t clarify some everything, but overall my point is: while there is something to be said about marketing and that a movie can’t be everything to everyone, ultimately good writing and interesting characters is what draws people in regardless of gender or even the genre of the movie.
What we have now reminds me of what happened with Catwoman (2004), where people used the film to proclaim that no one wanted to see a female superhero movie, completely ignoring the fact that the film itself was garbage,
The trouble is that the phrase meant something that is the opposite of how it is interpreted.
A STRONG character doesn't mean a POWERFUL character. It means one that can be remembered. Something with characteristics that mean you will recognise that character. You can have a weak man in a story that people remember because he is well written.
"Of Mice and Men" has Lennie Small. Lennie is mentally disabled. You come away from that story remembering him. He is a tragic character, without much power in the world. BUT THE WRITING IS STRONG.
"The Glass Menagerie" has a lot of fragility in the characters, that's the point, that is what it is all about, being fragile as glass. Yet it is incredibly popular because it is based on real life, and it rings true. Most people have personal experience with men and women as fragile as these people. Sometimes you can love someone, and not be able to save them.
I like the current entry in wikipedia but yt gets upset if you post links, so look it up, especially under Autobiographical elements.
A writer of any type should understand that increasing the power level doesn't make the character STRONG.
Here's a classic example:
God-man sat on his throne. Somewhere in the cosmos, there was trouble. He blinked, and there was no more.
Nobody will care about this character because it is not well written. The power level is irrelevant. But if you look at the MCU, that is what they keep doing, over and over, and when it doesn't work, they blame the audience.
Hashtag no kidding
You hit the nail on the head with your observation that women don't go watch these movies because they're simply not interested in the kind of heroic fantasy that Western comics represent, and are a fundamentally male preference.
Just like you don't market romance movies to men, you don't market heroic fantasy to women.
I 100% agree. You mentioned Legally Blonde. Its one of the best examples of how to write a likable female lead. Or Buffy, if we want to talk about Superhero Characters (yes, thats what she is). Why does Hollywood try to force badly written, unrelatable characters onto the audience? Characters that act and look (sadly) like men? Why can there never be a strong male co lead in a female lead action/superhero movie, who is on par with the female protagonist? There are dozends of examples, going back for decades, but modern Hollywood just wants to force something new onto us. And cause we do not like it, its our fault!
"where people used the film to proclaim that no one wanted to see a female superhero movie, completely ignoring the fact that the film itself was garbage"
Here's the difference.
Judging the audience: "where people used the film to proclaim that no one wanted to see a female superhero movie"
Judging the film: " completely ignoring the fact that the film itself was garbage"
The hallmark of good writing in books, movies, games or tv is when people regardless of who they are can enjoy the characters or relate to them, imo.
I will actually give a perfect example of this Through The Mirror a Mickey Mouse animated shortfilm from 1936 I'm only 25 years meaning age doesn't matter as the quality is still there almost 85 years later the short film in question I watched for the very first time very early this year like January or February kind of early it’s amongst my top 3 for most creative not only that but also very inventive
A lot try to wrap an Ideal or theology in there characters. for some of them the feel like a robot in a fleash suit. You have to touch on people be human cause like the song I am olny human after all.
i'm a white guy and my absolute favourite favourite film when i was little was cool Runnings. no one in that movie ever looked like me. had me going round putting on a Jamaican accent telling people to kiss me lucky egg. no one was ever like he cant watch that film, there's just no one he can relate to in it. that attitude literally only started in like 2016.
exactly this i read a book that has a series as well can't remember the name of it but I read it first while reading dune and also the Hyperion tales with the Hyperion shrike and i enjoyed recommended it to people and 90% of people despite liking complete different genres when they read it tell me that's a good book even if it isn't their cup of tea as it were.
@@lordsathariel4384 yes those are great books. Add “Ender’s game” and “Speaker for the deads” to the list. Non sci-fi friends who read these loved them. They have soul, a strong story and amazing twists and turns. Hyperion is amazing btw.
Back in the day we didn't label Ellen Ripley as a "Strong female character". We called it her the badass from Aliens. She didn't need the label. They didn't have to sell it as such. It was, here's a great story with really well written and acted characters.
And most significantly, Ripley was not originally conceived as a woman
There was just Lieutenant Ripley in the script, the idea to make the character a woman came to Ridley Scott at the last moment and Sigourney Weaver was not interested in this role (there is an interview where she talks about it) but as a result, this role became iconic and canonical for her
She was just a great character. I saw that movie when it came out and no one was expecting her to make it to the end. Everyone thought Tom Skerrit was going to be the last one standing. And in the second one was even better.
Just to add, what made Ripley or Sarah Connor great is that their gender was irrelevant, they did what they had to do to survive being killed by the alien or in case of Sarah Connor keeping her son alive from the terminator. It made them believable and likeable. Put the story front and centre, bring in an agenda, you risk screwing it up.
@@sreedharanbaskaradass9896the problem is that in certain cases, the identity of the person IS important to the story. I didn’t really love captain marvel. I thought it was fine but, imagine if the story was about the sexism and SA in the military? Would you make the argument that the gender of the main character wouldn’t matter? Or in Falcon and the Winter Soldier, the WW2 veteran tells Sam about feeling exploited and tossed aside by the country he fought for and was discriminated against…doesn’t that matter to the story? Ripley was written to be a man and was later casted as a woman. That’s a fine story to tell. However, having identity centered stories is also needed and it doesn’t make those specific stories “bad”. think of the Hunger Games. Katniss Everdeen's story wouldn't be the same if she was a man. The way she played the media game compared to Peeta was different. There's even a part where Peeta lies and says Katniss is pregnant in an attempt to save her from the games and the public gets outraged (caring more about the lives of babies in the womb than the lives of children force to kill each other for entertainment). Think of legally blonde, Jessica jones, watchmen (hbo show). None of those characters would be the same if their identities weren’t what they are. Because those struggles were specific to their stories.
@@gammarayos Again, Ripley was written as a man. In some cases, sexism is part of a characters story just like racism or classism. It doesn’t have to be but it can be. It can change how the character is treated and how they view the world. You can’t say that gender wasn’t an issue for Clarice in Silence of the Lambs or Jessica Jones. Having Captain America be a white man fighting for the US during WWII would have been a different story if he was black. However, it can still be a universally loved story because the character is fighting obstacles.
Thing is in the past strong female characters were pretty much common. Men loved female led franchises such as Aliens, Terminator, Tomb Raider and more. The difference is that back then these female heroes didn’t need to tear down men in order to stand tall themselves. Todays writers just insert what they see as the correct gender, race and other surface level characteristics and just leave it at that. I love strong female characters but just inserting a woman into a lead role doesn’t magically make her a great character
Strong female leads don’t have a leg to stand on without a great story to tell with it, and today’s cinema proves that true.
@@ThomasDrishdrop in female heroes that act just like men aren’t strong female characters. Real strong women take advantage of their feminine traits just as much as strong men take advantage of of their masculine traits. All I’ve seen is total rejection of feminine characteristics in the last decade as if it’s toxic femininity or something.
Bro I was going too mention how good Characters , Ripley was in Aliens and Sarah Connor was in Terminator . Just perfect Ripley would sacrifice it all just too save a Cat or a Child , same with Connor and her son , there not written as good as they where back in the days
Hollywood acts like nothing exists before 2020.
Nail on the head. It feels a lot like many of these writers that try to just DEI material has no understanding how to write for the actual inclusive perspective. Personally, I would have loved Ms Marvel to have been good, but it felt like the writers were just making low hanging jokes of the Pakistani teen and family perspective.
Two words: Ororo Munroe.
She was the best written character that went from a normal family girl to a street pick-pocketer to a worshiped GODDESS to finally a x-men. She is so full and developed that she was a whole model not only to other characters inside the comics (Rogue herself admired Storm control of her powers) to many MANY people in the real world. AND SHE WAS A BLACK WOMAN. FROM AFRICA. AND PEOPLE DIDNT GIVE A DAMN.
Born in 1986, watched the 90's cartoon and LOVED Storm, didnt see skin colour at all, didnt care she was a woman, loved because she was badass with a good story.
the current problem is people are know SHOVING it in your face, like a religion, religion is fine but if you shove it peoples faces they tend to get annoyed.
Very true, everyone loves storm
I remember identifying myself with Jessica Jones cause I was abusing alcohol and depressed. Totally agree that the problem is bad written characters.
I love Jessica Jones. She is a bit of a parody of Phil Marlow
Jessica Jones had some scenes with a teeny bit of "wahmen power" energy but it was totally forgivable because it wasn't as bad as anything today and in the end it was a VERY well written series.
I couldn't get into JJ mainly because I hate the whole "mastermind manipulator guy" stories. David Tenant ruined it for me.
I liked JJ in The Defenders because it was a different story.
But then, Iron Fist wasn't horrible in that either. His stand-alone show was trash.
Jessica Jones is a great character my issue is the creator's stupid excuses as to why they nerfed Jessica and Luke's relationship when in the comics they get married and have a daughter
Having Jessica get married would had added an "element of patriarchy" to the show. Can't have that. Especially when you consider JJ ran during the years when SJW feminism was at it's peak.@@CharlesChristinaWH
Imagine claiming mysoginy as an excuse for a movie failing, in the year of Barbie...
As a comic book fan
The some of the popular characters are Black Canary, Harley Quinn, Raven , Storm, Jean Grey and Rogue
All women all different races and from different backgrounds
And the one character I've seen men comic fans want in the dcu is vixen a black female superhero
I fully agree with you
You know it's cr*p when the excuse is selectively rolled out. Wonder Woman does fine so nobody talks about misogyny. Black Panther does fine so nobody talks about racism. The Marvels fails and suddenly the fans are a bunch of *istaphobes*. The fact that the industry has been allowed to get away with audience blaming is the reason why it's in the state that it is.
Didn't stop Stephen King simping and pandering to the minority blaming "adolescent fanboy hate" .... I wonder who cut off his testicles?
i asked people i know what comic books heros they wanted to see in live action for dc or marvel i was told the normal picks like dr doom but i also got a few like lobo Ravager/rose Wilson and Mister Terrific. people don't care in comics if the hero or villain is a man a women or a overgrown weed people just want decent stories yet it seems Hollywood forget this every decade@@CharlesChristinaWH
The only people propping up this marvel garbage are diehard MEN. Women don't watch this nonsense.
Disney's choice to try to turn Marvel and Star Wars into a 'girl brand' was really odd and it's costing them. As you mention, they wouldn't do that with Barbie or other female-led media.
Like JB I'm a tomboy and I've always known most of the things I like cater to a mostly-male audience and that's fine.
Really,
It was par for the course culturally to label ANY male dominated space into a hub of inceldom and misogyny, whether we're talking clubs boy scouts to videogames. Even in politics, remember the term Bernie Bros, GameStop stock collusion, and the trucker protest?
That's only because suits think because it's a "boy's brand" girls don't interact with it and they loosing potential money from that. So if they put a female lead into it and market it ss "now also for girls" they get more money.
The only readon why they don't do it with "girl brands" is because they have no idea how could they make boys interested something consudered girlish.
There is no problem with the next great Jedi being a female as long as you do a good job and with respect to the characters and lore.
But Disney's idea of making a female Star Wars lead was by destroying every established loved character and basically taking a big one on their heads while creating a mess of a story on top with characters that come and go and with bad scriptwriting scenes like Jedi swords that will cut your own hand off if used and silly feminist messages like telling Han Solo how his ship works or telling the guy to let go off her hand etc.
Beatrice Kiddo a.k.a The Bride from Kill Bill is an example of a great female character from an action film. She's extremely well written and a very nuanced compelling character. Played excellently by Uma Thurman.
Thinking back, I never once thought of Beatrice Kiddo as an op, mary sue, boss chick. She was giving everyone the business. This is a very good example of a female lead action movie done right.
@Jamie_Pritchard Yeah Tarantino is very hit or miss for me but I think Kill Bill Vol.1 and Vol. 2 are some of his best work.
THANK YOU ♥ more ppl need to speak up about this. The accusations of misogyny are extremely toxic and unhelpful.
Well, nobody has watched a trailer and said, "Hey, that's a strong female! I'm there!"
@@teastrainer3604 to be fair, nobody says that about a 'strong dude' either. It's more like, wow he/she looks cool, I wanna see this. I thought wonder woman looked quite badass ngl
@@dudemantype But the people who make movies think that a "strong woman" will sell a movie, and it won't.
@@teastrainer3604 yup. He/she needs to be 'strong' through the story... but that's acacadabra for business execs who think 'popular trends' = cash
I remember very well that back in the day, especially after Age of Ultron, Marvel's fandom were begging Kevin Feige to make a solo Black Widow film, and Wanda/Scarlet Witch fanbase were always huge, no wonder WandaVision stayed in the top10 most watched shows from January 2021 till January 2022!!! Like, her show was massive. And back in the X-Men days, fans were making petitions for Storm to gain a solo movie too, and most of those people demanding that were fanBOYS. Did Black Widow, a popular character, gained her movie while she was still alive? No! Did Wanda gained a movie after her blow of popularity due to WandaVision? No! She was turned into a poorly written villain. Did Storm ever got any movie or any hype from Marvel? No! What did we get instead? Captain Marvel, a character that was NEVER popular, that no one asked for, and that is honestly annoying. First Wonder Woman movie? A hit, amazing film. Alita? Sleeper hit, amazing film. Hermione Granger? Beloved character, more than the protagonist himself. People love characters like Tsunade, Sasha Braus, Helen Parr, Violet Parr, Okoye... All female characters in action movies / boy-coded movies because they are well written, they don't revolve around "fighting toxic masculinity" or "just being a woman" and they really mean something to people. People don't like characters like Captain Marvel or MCU She-Hulk because they are just not good and they were not made with good purpose.
I grew up first with Emma Peal, a sexy secret agent siren who used her wits, sex appeal & fighting skills to join with Steed, (the bowler hat wearing, brilliant secret agent) in the original Avengers British TV show. They worked together perfectly to defeat the bad guys. Then (my personals favorite) , Xena, Warrior Princess. She was utterly awesome, but had a soft protective side, brought out by meeting & joining with a female companion. Her story was developed over the series & everyone loved it. Princess Leah was as brave & important as any guy in Star Wars. Then, of course Ellen in Alien, Sarah Conners, & the list goes on. Wonder Woman fell in love with Steve & that made her more relatable None of them were preachy, mysandrist Mary Sues who have to tear down the men to lift themselves up. They had character development, grew as they made mistakes, learned the hard way, & had their own heros journeys.
Women often worked together WITH men, & that made the stories much more interesting & relatable . Disney has lost that entirely, refusing to give us sexy, strong men & just pump out soulless, preachy MarySue characters that appeal to no one. Then they blame the audience (men) when these ridiculous movies bomb. I really enjoy your videos, thanks. I'm glad I found your channel.
Well said.
I feel like outside of twitter, people inherently get this. It’s really obvious why no one connects with so many of these oddly written female characters.
Sean, I’m a fan of your channel! I’m so glad you watched my video!
@@realjesterbell🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Buffy the vampire slayer was always my favorite growing up in the 90's along with Faith from the same show.
Go Kendra. And don't forget Willow.
There were so many female lead characters I loved just like Buffy, Red Sonja, Xena, That lady from ghost whisperer (that series gets more and more nuanced as the seasons progressed etc.) so many great actresses and characters ❤
Many female characters have been very poorly written in recent years & it's quite often intentional. This is in order to make them girl bosses who feel the need to make men look bad in order for women to look good. Neither men nor women really want that kind of divisive content & never have. The result of this happening for so long is that some people now think that audiences don't care for female characters. I would say that both writers & studios need to take responsibility for that. It's sad because up until the last few years, there were strong male & female characters for decades that were beloved by many.
This was very good analysis, and I understand what you’re saying! My wife and daughter feel the same way. More than anything they want good storytelling. Stop trying to appeal to us with characters like Captain Marvel. That can be summed up with “I’m super powerful. I never fail. I don’t need anybody.” That is actually not a character that most women can identify with.
Ripley from Alien 2 has an amazing character arc. She is so well written where they use her feminine traits to enhance here story and arc, going from a shell shocked person and growing into a true hero.
Exactly! And who hated Leia in Star Wars??
Leia was kinda feminist in the fact she made Han and Luke like idiots in certain situations. Like when they escaped the holding cells in the Death Star.
@@achaudhari101 I saw that more of a class situation. The noble critiquing the peasants rescuing her.
@@thatHARVguy I never saw how “class” was the fight or flight attitude in that scene. Even then the people online would have accused that as putting down men.
@@achaudhari101 To be fair, Han and Luke WERE idiots. But they were brave and capable idiots, unlike men in movies today.
I thought I didn't like Rey, but then I recall all the powerful female characters I liked in media then it occured to me I didn't like how poorly written she was and how she was written to be too overpowered.
I found Rey interesting before she met BB-8. When she met/attacked Finn, it all went downhill.
@@thatHARVguy Rey was obviously a skilled fighter and survivor they started off good but they dropped the ball when they overlooked that even though she is powerful in the force. Powerful force users always required some form of training to hone their abilities. Anakin Skywalker needed to be trained what makes her exempt from that? Because she touched and downloaded all of Ben Solo's training? Such B.S
@@AwakenedJusThey rather make women that seemingly have no flaws and just overcome any problems easily. Wonder Woman was liked way more because her character was kind and courteous to men in the film. If captain Marvel carol actually showed her motivation for wanting to be a hero and was kind and courteous to men and women in the movie and Brie never insulted middle age men and they used her to maybe unite men and women hero characters to maybe stop a skrull Invasion that would of made for a better movie then the Marvels.
@@keithpace9870 I'm all for female empowerment cosplay and all that but they still have to put in the same work as male characters. Lol
@@AwakenedJus ...And she put in none. I still think the character is salvageable though. Same with Captain Marvel,..hell even She-Hulk. It's all in the writing. The problem is Disney just doesn't know what to do with the IP. The Netflix director of Once Piece tried to do it his own way,..the Japanese creator said do it the way I made it or I walk... Netflix said ok we'll do it your way...surprise..huge success!
You mentioned Legally Blonde as a film you say that a lot of guys you talk to love. I am one of those guys. It's so damn funny and charming and it's such a product of it's time but not in a bad way. That's definitely a film we dont see anymore and if we did get that now it would probably be awful.
I love that movie too as a dude. It helps when a female lead acts like a...well...female. The problem is all the modern female leads got all the feminity sucked out of them to where they become cheap copies of men. Neither men or women want to see that. Relatable characters and a good story will always attract an audience. Modern Hollywood got Neither of those.
And Elle really goes through the fucking ringer in that film once she gets to Harvard. Her ex boyfriend treats her like shit. His fiancee and her friends bully her. Her teachers don't like her. One kicks her out of class and the other comes onto her under the pretenses that she's doing well and wants to congratulate her, whereas she gets blamed for it by Vivian as her being in the wrong. But despite all of these hits, she still prevails. She studies her ass off. She gets into Harvard and then gets her act together when everyone doubts her. And then she wins the case, not because of the status quo, but because of herself and her knowledge of both worlds. And after all of that, she's the speaker of her class, best friends with Vivian, offered a prestigious job and has a guy in her corner ready to propose.
It's a wonderful arc for her. It's why I love her so much.
Elle is an EXTREMELY strong character. Nobody respects her. Nobody takes her seriously. Why? Because she's a "girly" girl. She uses cute outfits when everyone else wears gray, smiles when berated, always looks at the bright side. She's everything these hack writers consider to be "evil" or "weak". In the movie, she wins through kindness and staying true to herself. She doesn't once put anyone down, ever, because she doesn't need to.
She has been one of my favorite heroines ever since I was a little girl along with the animated Cinderella because their emotional strength and intelligence far eclipses any modern "feminist" husk that puts others down to make herself seem better. I'm sorry, but that's not being strong. That's being a bully.
I don't know, it's pretty ironic that the mean girl of Legally Blonde acts exactly like what hack writers call 'strong', when her bitterness is a mask for her insecurities. Furthermore, it's insulting that they keep equating 'strong' to 'stereotypically masculine'. Thanks, but no thanks. Elle >>>> these failed self-inserts
@@sophieamandaleitontoomey9343
Yup a classic "Hero's journey" story
I recently watched blue eye samurai on netflix, the main character is a woman and she is written very well, it honestly shocked me, it really shouldn't but because of how alot of mordern female characters are written i went in with assumptions of how the mc would be written and my expectations were subverted, she's a badass swordsman but still struggles and can't get everything done by herself, she started off harden and little emotion but over time you see why she is like this and as she starts caring for others she starts showing more of herself.
Let's not forget about Ripley
Also Sarah Corners was a great character
As a white, heterosexual, English man I can say with confidence that Ripley, Sarah Conner and even Wonder Woman are three of my favourite protagonists of all time! They're not even characters I dream about F-ing, I just love them as people!
wonder woman had such a beautiful personality . she was kind and gentle but still firm and tough
As a five year old in 1977 I thought Princess Leia was cool.
shame gal doesn't and is a Israel propaganda machine. after that interview of her discussing the ceasefire and her past in the IDF wonder woman would look at her in disgust.@@rainbowslushy223
The issue is that Hollywood is going against Joseph Campbell's "The hero's journey" and "Hero of 1000 faces" concepts that have been proven to work well even if it's twerked to fit a certain type of hero
As I'm a pro wrestling fan too, the main goal of any hero is that the audience has to feel for the hero and has to struggle and the villain should be their ying to their yang
I mean I've seen really bad men and women "heros" especially in the mid 2000s and all of the 2010s especially in the horror and action genre
Nobody cares about your sexuality we didn't ask try again
underrated female action characters who are _actually_ "strong"--
•Sarah walker from chuck
•Selene from underworld
•Arya Stark + Brienne from GoT
•rita vertasky from Edge of Tomorrow
•Ilsa from MissionImpossible
•Nikita + Alex from nikita
•Trinity from the Matrix
•Shaw + Root from person of interest
•Letty from Fast and Furious
Buffy The Vampire Slayer (TV series) is a prime example of strong female characters who are still adored and celebrated today!
Wonder Woman, Vi and Jinx from Arcane, Rita from Edge of Tomorrow, Neytiri from Avatar, Black Widow, Jyn Erso from Rogue One, The Bride from Kill Bill, Alita from Battle Angel, Hit Girl from Kick Ass, River and Zoe from Serenity, the list goes on and on.
When they say things like "women killed the mcu" they're not talking about the characters, they're talking about the women behind the scenes.
@@gammarayosand then you see what the actresses say and do…. Watch the recent Snow White one by George The Giant Slayer
I think Marvel needs to talk to the team that made those Underworld movies. They were pretty good and got 4x movies out of them
JB. You know your success is growing when you get over 200 likes in 1hr. I am genuinely happy that your channel got traction to the “ true believers “. You have been a REAL ONE since DAY ONE ..THANK YOU FOR BLESSING US THE VIEWERS . ❤❤❤❤❤
"The Marvels" flopped?
(I'm sitting here in stunned silence.)
The sky is blue, the grass is green, water is wet, and "The Marvels" is cr@p.
If there was only a way to become rich by predicting the obvious...
Honestly... Film studios just need to stop using their movies to fight proxy wars.
For me, strong character is Carol from The Walking Dead, coming from abusive relationship and loss of a daughter to woman who saved her people multiple times aka Terminus. And unlike Carol who died early in comics, Melissa McBride created new and empowering Carol with Kirkman (writer of TWD comics) praising a change and Carol survived until the end of show. Also Melissa herself said in interview few years ago that she was getting letters from fans, both MEN and WOMEN who themselves were in abusive relationship and Carol was inspiration for them to leave and/or get help. And from what I know from fans who met her, Melissa is always moved and grateful that Carol was their source of empowerment. TWD writers of show have done many mistakes over time show was in air but Carol is one few things done right and better than in comics.
I've watched multiple videos on this subject. To me, yours has been the most balanced, logical, intelligent opinion I've heard by far.
When you mentioned legally blonde so true! I went to film school and in one of my classes my teacher asked if we wanted to see the movie. A lot of guys in my class where like “HELL YEEESS” it was cool to see it’s a movie well loved
Good characters are good characters. If you recognise something of yourself, or something to aspire to, or shame and guilt you recognise then ANYONE can connect with a character. What modern writers have done to brilliant characters is shameful.
I think when they say women killed the MCU, they mean the producers and the actresses spewing hate out on tweets saying it’s toxic Men that are small demographic that need to just shut up that’s not what you say to a fan and whatever you think of Henry Cavill and they asked him about toxic fans. He said I don’t consider them toxic I consider them passionate fan and they have the right to think whatever they want.
Misogyny gets thrown around a lot so it’s gonna lose its meaning and people are just gonna say “f**k it, I am that I am.”
I liked strong female characters that are in touch with their femininity like Elle from Legally blonde as she wanted to prove to everyone that she’s more than a bimbo. I also liked the Beatrix Kiddo aka The Bride from Kill Bill as she worked hard to earn the respect of Pai Mei, a Kung-Fu Grandmaster who doesn’t have a high opinion on western people, particularly the women.
Nowadays these strong female characters are written to prove they can be better than men at being masculine when really they are just insufferable.
Even if a woman is masculine there's nothing wrong with that. Everyone loved Dizzy from Starship Troopers and she was masculine as fuck. It's about how they're written. If they're written as people they're neat. If they're written as self inserts it's annoying. This goes for both masculine AND feminine, MEN AND WOMEN.
Good stories have a moral to them. To write compelling morals-to-the-story requires a good moral compass.
Ah, but these movies *DO* have a moral to them. It's: *"Women-good-Men-bad".* That's one reason we hate them.
I remember reading X-Men comics in the early 90's (like most kids) Wolverine was my favourite of course but Storm was a close second. Not because she was a strong black female, but because she was a well written character with flaws, goals and earned her teammates respect and ultimately being a leader of the X-Men at times and her own team. Film and literature are filled with amazingly tough female characters. They had good creators not pushing agendas but ideas. Good video btw!
The fact that they openly and proudly hate on men is a huge factor. I'm surprised you didn't mention that.
Men don't want to go to movies that lecture to them about how "evil" and "bad" and "worthless" they are. We don't want to see a movie where the women are openly and vitriolically hateful, condescending and even physically abusive towards men.
Ask yourself: would *YOU* wanna see a movie that does nothing but s#!t on *YOUR* demographic? It's hardly rocket science.
12:01, like the animated Mulan who actually has to work and struggle throughout her training to become capable of fighting in the Chinese Army. Or Mira Nova from Buzz Lightyear of Star Command who is an overpowered character but needs to acquire a certain level of skill and focus from working with Buzz and his team
God, thank you for this video. I've always been more drawn to boyish brands too. I liked the adventure and the more carefree spirit male characters had. It was an escape from the somewhat stringent world girls are thrust into. I already live that life, so being a part of male stories offered an escape.
Having said that, I still do love girly stuff! I love a good romcom, poppy girl music, I even loved Barbie! But those things were aimed directly at my more feminine interests. I knew what I was getting with Barbie, just like I knew what I was getting with Infinity War.
I'm so happy to have stumbled on your channel! It's so nice to find other women like me. I feel like we're the hidden voice that no one wants to actually hear. Thank you again for making this video, definitely checking out all your other stuff!
Very good and based take. The problem is, the people writing the films aren't trying to reflect reality and human experience and thus be relatable, they are activists that are trying to somehow change reality by pushing a certain vision.
The two of my favorite well written strong female action characters are indeed Ripley from Aliens and Sarah Connor from T2. But you can find strong women characters in many genres. Being strong doesn’t necessarily mean they are physically strong, but mentally able to overcome the obstacles that’s imposed onto them. Struggling to come out on top is main reason we can relate to these characters, regardless of gender.
I personally tend to be biased _in favor of_ female action heroes. When people try to say crap about nobody wanting female action heroes, it pisses me off. They undermine the very thing I want to see more of!
You're exactly right; it's not that nobody likes female heroes, it's that nobody likes badly written characters.
5:07, I would say that I like d Wonder Woman for her character arc of going from believing that humans only did bad things to each other due to external manipulation to realizing that the reality is that we’re an extremely flawed species but in the end decides we’re worth protecting regardless “they are everything you say they are but they are also so much more”.
11:00 I mean there are two types of people, people who like legally blonde and people who haven't seen legally blonde.
Lara Croft
Storm (X-men Comics versions)
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Mikasa Ackerman (Attack on Titan)
Furiosa
Hermione Granger
Elastigirl (Incredibles)
Zoe Walsh (Firefly)
Sailor Moon
Kim Possible
Clarke Griffin (The 100)
It's best to branch out to smaller TV shows, cartoons, anime, and video games too. They all have well developed female characters outside of big budget films.
Your perspective on this topic is actually the most insightful so far. I think many people fail to recognize that female action stars have been here for a long time, Angelina Jolie, Sigourney Weaver, Jennifer Lawrence, Kate Beckinsale, Mila Jovovich, Michelle Rodriguez, Charlize Theron, and we can go on and on with the list. They have made great movies many of them have lead action movies. So most of the marvel issue or superhero movie issue today is mostly that is trying to appeal to women and alienating the male audience and it turns out that women are still not interested in the genre and man don’t care about those characters.
Great video and great point , I'm so tired of people saying that . I grew up in the 80s and always loved strong well written characters from wonder woman , aliens , terminator , grace jones from Hercules , Red Sonia and so on . And they always ignore female fans like you who don't like them . They only go after male fans.
Xena was a show with big support from both sides of the aisle. Strong female leads can appeal to everyone.
Less said about that the better. Obscurity will save it from being put through the necrophelia machine known as reboots.
@@pheunithpsychic-watertype9881oh please. Wokies today would eat up Xena. Especially when she went lesbian towards the end of the series
Guys also loved Underworld with Kate Beckinsale. Amazing character. Modern female characters are wooden planks.
In Aliens the most important scene in the movie is when she was asking for something to do and showed she was qualified to run the loader. It's a 2 minute scene. Without it, you couldn't have the fight scene at the end. You would ask how does she knows how to run it. That's what they will do nowadays .
Has everyone forgot about Zena, the show ran for 6 years. This was back in the male dominated 80's.
It was in the 90s and was a spinoff from Hercules. But when they were on screen at the same time they didn't upstage each other, both characters had their own strengths and own weaknesses and they complimented each other. You can't have that dynamic today, the strong woman must always make the male character look like an absolute joke.
This video needs to be viral
Please don’t forget Buffy, at least the TV show.
The show continues to be hugely popular. The fandom is dedicated and loyal, and the hero is strong, vulnerable and hugely flawed, and entirely human.
And please no comments regarding the creator and show runner, I know he’s a dirt bag.
Buffy doesn’t live and breath because of he who shall not be named, Buffy lives because it’s brilliant.
word
Buffy was also actually feminine! I remember one time she punched a vamp in the face and broke her nail and she was far more worried about her nail than the vampire trying to kill her 😂😂 and that femininity never took away from her strength!! Buffy was just a normal teenaged girl with normal teenaged girl problems, who ALSO happened to be a badass vampire slayer. They don’t write characters like her anymore.
I'm glad I looked at the comments before speaking, you said exactly what I wanted to say about Buffy.
Aliens , Terminator, even the Power Puff girls we're fantastic protagonist back in the days ..
Charmed also has a lot of strong female characters. And the guys didn't have to be wimps.
Completely agree and the two in your thumbnail are the perfect examples for your argument. My take is that the best female characters (actually, just characters in general) are a mix of strength and vulnerability, it makes them relatable and easy to root for. Make them perfect in every way and they're just annoying and outside most peoples real life experience.
Wonder Woman is great. She has an innocence. It is also a film full of men, in the middle of a catastrophic war. This is a stark contrast to her.
What the polling turnout shows is that the misogyny narrative is a farce, and that these studios are severely out of touch with women.
Also that captain Marvel character has gone through so many transitions that it's hard to follow and care about.
Clarice Starling and Beatrix Kiddo are my absolute favourite characters. I'm a male btw.
This video was PERFECT! Best I’ve seen in review of this movie
I have been a Marvel fan since I was young.
I completely agree with your points. It's all about
character development, acting, and a well developed story.
I LOVED these strong women in their roles during the MCU's
heyday: Pepper Potts, Frigga, Black Widow, Agent Maria Hill,
Hela, Valkyrie, Scarlet Witch, Shuri, Okoye, Peggy Carter, Lady Sif,
Gamora, Nebula, Jessica Jones.
It's not at all about not liking strong women.
I also find very peculiar how good or even just decent female characters are never treated like feminist icons
we also dislike mean abusive narcissistic characters that are supposed to be the heroes
I've been binging your content. Just subscribed, you seem fair and I like the way you talk
If you look at the movie Kill Bill, it was loaded with "Strong Female Characters" and "Diversity", but the biggest difference between Kill Bill and The Marvels is for Kill Bill, those Strong Female and Diverse Characters are deeply woven into the story, where as in The Marvels' Strong Female and Diverse Characters ARE the story, just like everything Marvel nowadays which it's shallow, lame and boring, plus they expect us to sit through 2-3 hours of it.
Terminator, underworld, wonder woman, alien..so many good movies that also had good female characters...no one broke it down that way in the past
No, I think people actually do hate strong female characters. It just so happens that they are also badly written on top.
Theres 2 reasons people went into Barbie
1. Margot Robbie
2. The idea of Barbie getting a high budget movie.
I agree. People don't care if characters are gay or trans. All they care about is a good story and well written characters. Alot of people tend to associate something being "woke" with being bad.
Thank you for your sensible take on this movie. People don't reject female leads in movies they reject terrible movies. Plus as time moves on audiences taste change and the movie studios has over saturated us with super hero genre type movies.
Im just glad you said it for us. Women just arent into these movies. Comics were kinda a boy thing, and the women who like it, liked it the way it was.
Also i appreciate you even pointing out Carol Danvers was mid as a character in her own source material.
I genuinely hope you inspire more women to actually speak up, as fans of comics and tell them whay you'd actually like to see on the screen.
I've long been saying there's a difference between a character who is strong who happens to be female and a character who is strong because she's female.
If audiences really hated women in leads, then why did Barbie make a billion dollars?
Because Barbie has been popular for almost a century and is not a superhero movie where the 3 leads are not only women but two of them are POC.
@@Edge439 True, I just think the fact that that film was as successful as it was ultimately nullifies the “audiences hate women” coping mechanism.
For someone who spoke unscripted and off the cuff, this was the best take on the Marvel's movie that I've heard. Well done! Good origin stories are key elements to a great character.
Yes, I completely agree. I grew up on princess Jasmine and Xena, I love strong female characters. I love lesbian relationship in Legends of Tomorrow. Just make good things, don't make bad things, that's all about it.
💯....issue is that Marvel doesn't have true fans writing story lines anymore. Changing the story line to make a social point ruins the concept of the character.
It comes down to two things: 1) people don't like bad writing, 2) shitting on half (or more) of your potential audience is NEVER a good idea. You can't build up your new female characters and get people to like them by crapping all over your popular male characters. Nor by turning every male into a complete bastard.
In Birds of Prey EVERY male character was a scumbag, even the old men and young boys. For some strange reason that didn't make me like the female characters more. It just made me hate the writers, director, producer, and studio. Not because I'm a male, but because I have a functioning brain and I don't like to have my intelligence insulted with writing that is so incredibly bad.
Thank you for this video and lending a voice to more balanced views.
🔥🔥🔥 Once again I already agree with the video before watching 😂
💯
Wow, very intelligent and honest analysis. We need more people like you in the world. Thanks
Buffy the vampire slayer ❤
There’s this weird trend going on where a company deems their own consumer base to be not good enough for them for ideological reasons, and actively tries to alienate it. It’s not working, they’re selling products, customers aren’t interested in being reeducated or openly mocked.
Well said, "women super-hero = film bomb" is a really simplistic take, I think writers rather are just phoning it in when writing female characters. I was a big fan of Cara-Dune (Gina Carano), even if I think Gina isn't the best actor, because she really does kick ass, and her character had exactly the level of confidence and yet world-weariness an ex-special forces soldier would have. Similarly, Brienne of Tarth is in my top 3 favourite characters in Game of Thrones, on top of being a skilled warrior, she carries herself with a dignified nobility, while never being arrogant about her capabilities.
Anyway, I guess the point I'm making is that when the writing's there, so are the compelling characters, female or not.
Brienne of Tarth was wonderful but Care-Dune was a non-entity as a character. She was all muscle and no personality. A lot of that is due to Gina Carano just being a bad actor. Sure she looked the part but that was her only qualification. When Bill Burr is upstaging you, it's time to consider a new career.
It does feel like there has been a horde of bad writers.
Vi from Arcane is one of the better characters to come out of the last decade of shows and movies.
When male oriented films bomb, men don't blame women.
THANK YOU! An island of nuance in a sea of ignorance.
First time at your channel.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Your thumbnail said it all.
I watched a netflix series called unbelievable. It's quite tough subject matter, but the show has three female leads, and the actresses are absolutely amazing. The show is so well written. Some of the best acting I have ever seen.
KILL BILL is still my all-time favourite movies till this day. It's also one of the earliest successful examples I can think off.
Funny how Arcane and Blue Eyed Samurai manage to write women and be massively successful. Maybe its just Hollywood that trash actual well written female lead scripts. Oh and Emily Blunt in The English was mind blowing.
Really appreciate your take on this. Thought it was just me, bad writing is a real turn off.
Doesn’t matter what your lead is, Bad writing doesn’t work.
Thank you for making this vid.
I'm a girl who likes male brands and IPs too. I am one of the very few females who love slashers, for instance. I agree that if you make a good movie, it doesn't matter who your lead is... People will like it.
Thanks for saying this. You are 100% correct.
RUclips just recommended me your channel for the first time and I’m so glad, because it’s nice to listen to someone with an actually balanced take. I pretty much agree with everything you said in this video. Female superheroes aren’t the problem, and the fanbase isn’t misogynistic. We just want well written characters.
I, too, don’t understand why people seem to feel offended by the fact that Marvel is a guy brand. It just… is. That is more than okay. It doesn’t mean women aren’t welcome, it just means we aren’t the main target audience. It’s just a fact. Which is evident by the fact that women still don’t watch (bad) superhero movies even if they’re trying to appeal to them, but they flock to see Barbie. People just tend to like what they like. I didn’t go watch Barbie personally because I wasn’t a Barbie girlie as a child but even I felt tempted because it definitely was appealing to the side of me that loves girly things. The point is: don’t alienate your actual fanbase. Women wouldn’t have liked a masculine Barbie movie, so why not keep the same energy the other way around? How is it okay to try and make a guy brand girly, but not the other way around? Not to mention that yes, precisely, we women who do love Marvel love it as it is. I don’t want it to change for a weird perceived notion that they have of what I want from my stories. Sure I love female superheroes. I was always partial to Kitty Pride growing up, personally. But my favorite is Cap. I just love Steve so much and I find him inspiring to me despite the fact that I’m a woman. We can’t just relate to people on the basis of gender, we’re deeper than that. Unfortunately, I think these writers have forgotten that. It’s just sad.
You know what is really crazy? They say that men were sexist for not seeing this or disliked it. Oddly, it was women who were in the minority who went to see Captain Marvel and The Marvels. They are basically trying to make these properties that attract mainly men to attract the Barbie/Taylor Swift concert movie/Twilight fanbase which is generally women. They are basically trying to fit in a square peg into a circle hole. Though a lot of these women did go see the first Aquaman only to see Jason Momoa without his shirt and wet.
This is what I have been saying for years. Who here hates Nancy from aNoES? Who here hates Laurie Strode from Halloween? Who here hates Sarah Connor from T2? Who here hates Leia from Star Wars? Etc.
It’s about how they are written and brought to life that matters. Whether it be male or female a badly written character is a bad character.
Farah Karim from the call of duty: Modern Warfare 2019 is a well written female soldier character. A rebel army leader from a war middle eastern country of Urzikstan.
Finally a video that doesn’t attempt to analyze the Marvels based on extremes of opinion.
To quote a character from one of my favorite shows "You might be powerful, But that doesn't make you strong".