OK, you’re completely wrong about the Coke 600 thing. You don’t even know what you’re talking about now he moved up a line because a guy ran out after they had already ran several caution laps coming to the green. The race would’ve been over anyway so Junior wouldn’t have won anyway, and by the way, I was furious after that race that he ran out, but that was the rules and yes, I was a junior fan and still am so please just stop.
@@lordvoldemort4944 Well shoot, just went back to rewatch the finish and you’re exactly right. Kasey Kahne was in fact the leader coming to that restart. Greg Biffle was also leading when the yellow was thrown and had to pit. I got that completely wrong and you’re right, I didn’t know what I was talking about here. My sincere apologies, and thank you for pointing that out. Surprised no one had noticed that before to be honest. (Edit: after rewatching my own video, I still stand by what I said about OT compromising Junior's race and it still ultimately cost him a handful of spots at the finish, but Lord Voldemort is right, Junior would have only finished 2nd (or perhaps even 3rd!) had the race simply ended under yellow. It's an inexcusable mistake on my part and a good reminder for me to be more careful and diligent with my scriptwriting in the future.
@@bcschneider53W pin, thank you for this. Not only are you taking accountability, but more importantly to me, you’re doing your best to give out true info.
Never forget the 2015 Talladega fall race when NASCAR randomly changed the 3 GWC attempts back to just one, leading to Harvick literally wrecking the field on purpose as he was running low on fuel on the restart. Great video lol
A friend of mine mentioned this to me too. Can’t believe I forgot to use that race as an example here. I was too busy that day watching Rossi run his home US Grand Prix for Manor as Lewis won his 3rd F1 title. Lol.
Here after the most Overtime finishes in a single NASCAR Cup Series season at 13 (Including the abysmal ending to Nashville, and the controversial ending to the Brickyard 400)
Playoffs, overtime and constantly referencing 'game 7 moments' just screams of an identity crisis. Nascar need a total reset and leadership that understands what a motorsport is and more importatnly what it isn't.
I ship Liberty Media, and Ben Kennedy as the Heads of NASCAR. They should do this: • No Playoffs !!! Go Back to a Season Long Format, but this one is a Modified Version of the F1 and IndyCar Points Format: - 1st - 70 - 2nd - 50 - 3rd - 45 - 4th - 40 - 5th - 37 - 6th - 34 - 7th - 31 - 8th - 28 - 9th - 25 - 10th - 22 - 11th - 20 - 12th - 18 - 13th - 16 - 14th - 14 - 15th - 12 - 16th - 10 - 17th - 9 - 18th - 8 - 19th - 7 - 20th - 6 - 21st - 5 - 22nd - 4 - 23rd - 3 - 24th - 2 - 25th - 1 Points for Qualifying - 1st - 10 - 2nd - 9 - 3rd - 8 - 4th - 7 - 5th - 6 - 6th - 5 - 7th - 4 - 8th - 3 - 9th - 2 - 10th - 1 • No More Yellow Line Rule at Daytona and Talladega • No More Overtime Rule • No More Charter System, Owner Points, and Top 35 Rule, No More 4 Cars Per Team Rule, New Teams who want to Enter a Race Has a Shot to Make it to the 40 - 43 Car Field, via LCQ
My take: Revert to the 1975 Winston Cup format, but add an extra 25 points to the winner. 200 points for 1st, 170 for 2nd, etc. Keep stages, but remove the cautions for the end of a stage. 5 points to a stage winner. Green-white-checkered at select races. (All-star race, some short tracks, etc.)
I’d take this over what we have now for sure. If NASCAR wants to emphasize winning, a significant points difference from 1st to 2nd compared to 2nd and 3rd is the way to go, similar to what F1 does with their system.
Don't forget: Green-white-checkered isn't really a gimmick. It's a trade-off to losing the ability to race back to the line before the frozen field was a thing. It's the simplest way to make sure instant cautions allow safety crews to get to drivers, but also allow the race to end with a fight to the line like they always used to. Also, I bet F1 wishes they had something like this right about now...
1) With all due respect, GWC is the definition of a gimmick. It extends the race simply because it happened to be under caution at the end of the scheduled distance to maximize entertainment. 2) If the last two months are any indication, this is the LAST thing F1 needs right about now...
@@bcschneider53 Would you say racing back to the line was something along those same lines? I understand your argument about extending the race length, but besides that, one could argue every format that doesn't just pause the race under caution and call it a day is gimmicky. NASCAR always had some form of trying to end a race with a run to the flag. GWC is just an evolution of that.
@@danielwest9955 Honestly, in the interest of safety, I would take what we have now over racing back to the line. It’s one of those things that you look back on and wonder how NASCAR did it for so long before running into a situation like they did with Jarrett. I do consider racing back to the line a bit of a gimmick. Once the caution is displayed, it’s out. The lights are on. Why would speeding and improving your position be okay just because you happened to do it before you completed another lap by crossing the line? The field should be frozen the moment the lights come on, especially with the scoring loop technology we have today.
Hard disagree. Sitting through an entire race just to have a race with four to go end under caution was the worst blue balls imaginable. There's a reason GWC made it out of the Truck Series and into every major NASCAR series.
Fair enough. Like I said, I know GWC has its fans and I respect that. Ending a race under caution is certainly a disappointment, but from a motorsports integrity standpoint, I think it’s the right call in many circumstances.
I like racing back. If there’s a car in the way either red flag/ double caution the race and end it there under “caution or double yellow”. Or you can let everyone come down get gas and go for 1 or multiple “green, white, checkered.” I think racing back is the ideal finish.
Instead of doing Overtime NASCAR should do what IndyCar or F1 does, do a 15 - 20 Minute Timed Race towards the End for a Race To End Under Green and Not Under Yellow
A green white checker "Overtime" is a worst of both worlds solution. Not only have you bunched the field at the exact time they're driving their absolute hardest, not only is there a massive time pressure to get as far up the field as possible in such a short window as *two freaking laps,* but you have thrown an unnecessary monkey into pit strategy since the extra distance has to be taken into account! I would rather have just calling the race official short of the scheduled distance if a late-race caution comes out, just like a rain caution past the halfway point, than have this needlessly short shootout at the end.
All I want is NASCAR (and even Indycar) to have one single guaranteed restart. Seeing a caution come out in Indycar with like 8 to go ending the race is absurd, but seeing crash after crash through multiple restarts in NASCAR is even worse. In my perfect world, a caution with 2 to go should end the race, a caution with any more than 2 to go should have a single guaranteed restart.
Change 2 to 3 and I’d be willing to compromise here. I definitely get the desire for a green flag finish over one under caution, I just disagree with the “at all costs” aspect of it.
@@bcschneider53 honestly it really all depends on the track, and it’s really hard to say that a caution after this arbitrary lap number ends the race but before it leads to a restart, kinda why using the white flag works for it. I’m really just all in favor of 1 GWC attempt in nascar and maybe working out something that could work in Indycar without using red flags.
As a European (I think that's important because im not too big of a NASCAR fan), i think it would be more fair if they were just more trigger happy with red flags instead of cautions at the end of the race. And maybe they can add some sort of rule that excludes the restart formation lap(s) from the total number of laps to have it still finish under green.
One of the most ridiculous instances was the spring race at Bristol a few years ago (I don't remember which year it was), when they had gone past the scheduled distance under caution because of a rain shower. It was raining hard enough that they red-flagged the race after it had passed 500 laps, but by God, they had to get that green flag finish or else.
Totally agree, I hate overtime just as much as the playoffs. Completely artificial and unnecessary. Throws out the strategy and work of the teams while tearing up tons of race cars. Plus it encourages NASCA to throw cautions for things that are probably not cautions all in the name of a "close finish". It seems to be artificial "entertainment" over true racing and sport these days.
@@bcschneider53 Not sure why it took me 2 years to think about it, but perhaps the best use for this concept would be for debris (or other low risks) cautions.
I just hate that every single race seems to end this way. I guess it’s better than every race ending under caution but it feels contrived that there’s always a late race caution to bring about overtime for a too short shoot out
Just let them race back to the line under caution again. Overtime is basically just that over, and over, and over, and over again. Also mid-season rule changes are the dumbest thing I've ever heard of, you can't just change the damn rules before the game is done, come on!
I would not complain about races finished under caution since this motorsports. But I would complain race distance being extended because of entertainment. I watched 2011 Coca cola 600, as HMS fan, it's pain to see Junior's win gone off the window because of arbitrary GWC.
I disagree. The 2004 Talladega race was the first race I went to. It's very disappointing to have it end under yellow and not getting to see Jr and Gordon race to the checkered flag. Also, these are supposed to be a lot of the best stock car racers. It's more of their own fault if they tear up their equipment because they are too aggressive and careless. There are many newer changes that I don't like, such as playoffs, stages, and double file restarts, but this isn't one.
I Haven't watched NASCAR since the early 2000's, all their formats ruined the sport. The playoff system is complete BS... who cares what you did the first 2/3 of the season... just win the last race and you are the Champ!? Makes zero sense.
I've always been of the thought that a race should end at its scheduled distance. It's the Daytona 500, not Daytona 520. But you're talking about an organization that thinks stages and playoffs belong in motorsports. I dislike the overtime rule also, but it's not near as bad as the stupid ass point reset and "GaMe 7 MoMeNtS".
@@bcschneider53 surely NASCAR is aware of how their inconsistency and indecisiveness has alienated much of their core fanbase. I mean, I still love it, but between the changes and now they're trying to be woke, I don't know how long it's gonna last. But they're in the business of making money, not making their most dedicated fans happy. Sometimes one doesn't necessarily lead to the other. But I can't help but feel like Bill Jr. would never have allowed most of the changes of the last 10 years. Stages, playoffs, overtime, caution clocks, ect.
@@-BigMike- I agree with most of what you’re saying but not sure I get this idea that NASCAR has fully gone “woke.” All they’ve really done is push for expanded opportunities for minorities and women in the sport and ban the display of the Confederate flag, both of which I think are good things. The rest I completely agree with though. It signals a desire to want to align more closely with mainstream stick-and-ball sports over the rest of the motorsports world, which I think is has been a mistake for the most part…
@@bcschneider53 first off, I'm a black man. So don't take what I say as hateful or anything. But NASCAR has been open to minorities and women for YEARS, they just didn't go on and on how they're so inclusive and stand with Bubba and all that mess. But I think people should get opportunities based on their talent, not their skin color. I know I wouldn't want to take a job that I didn't earn, as a man, that wouldn't be very satisfying. So there's a fine line between inclusivity and being woke. My cousin has worked for Ganassi, Spire, StarCom and a few other teams. He was invited to practice and impressed and got the job. They didn't say well, since your black, you're hired! But the fact of the matter is, most minorities don't care for NASCAR. Our car culture is big bodys and rims. Not horsepower and muscle. Growing up, I knew ZERO black people that watched or cared to watch...and that's living within 30 minutes to Darlington. We were under the impression it was dumb rednecks driving in circles. The only reason I got into NASCAR was because my cousin took me to Daytona in 05. I was hooked once I was there. From day 1 at my first race, I've been treated like family at every track I've ever been to. To act like NASCAR wasn't inclusive before Darrell Wallace is wrong. But they want to hold him on a pedestal because he is black, not because he has the best talent. I don't know, I just always felt that the best companies at inclusivity were the ones that don't beat you over the head with it constantly. They're pushing Darrell as a star for one reason. That's because of his skin color. Nothing else. That's woke in my eyes.
@@bcschneider53 sorry so long, but I didn't want to give the wrong impression. Just wanted to give you my opinion. Also, the confederate flag hasn't done anything to hinder my life and I never felt hate because of it. You can't judge a whole race of people off of something that happened 150 years ago. So I'm fine with it being at races or not. Doesn't really matter to me, tbh.
So... while I agree that there would be an uproar if it was gotten rid of... I mean... you can't rely on social media all that much. There may be a few thousand that will fuss about it, vehemently, but most of us won't object as much. So... this is one of those things that sounds great in concept to allow for a green flag finish, but here is where I would side with Rusty Wallace. It causes way more problems, specifically at superspeedways. Stages already cause the races to be up to an hour longer. Add 5 or 6 attempts at a 2 lap green flag finish because drivers get impatient and desperate and do stupid things, specifically the younger guys, you wind up with a 5 hour race with 10 or so guys in the race. The other part of this is that there really isn't a serious justification for this. How often does a race end under caution? Not very. And look at how the system was abused with the phantom cautions just to set up a "dramatic finish". Does it serve to please those who think wrecks are exciting? Yes. Does it serve to setup a dramatic finish? Obviously. But... at what cost? Do we constantly want to put drivers in more danger than they already are just to not let roughly 2/36 races finish under caution? This has constantly been in an effort to make NASCAR, a motorsport, like other stick and ball sports and it comes across as either desperate to appeal to fans who don't care about motorsports or almost as if it's ashamed to be a motosport in the first place. It's just so funny how there needs to be all of these changes made when, during the time when NASCAR was at peak popularity, they hadn't changed a dang thing yet. Lol. But... this is where people can be taken advantage of because most of the core fans have left and there is a newer, younger crowd that was not around during the 90s or early 2000s. They only know the chase and overtime. They only know the COT and the gen 6 cars and boring racing with phantom cautions and manufactured tension. Spectacular crash after crash on superspeedways. Conga line pack racing, or packs so glued together drivers are basically stuck. They were taught that races where someone dominates a race is boring.. They were taught when someone spanks the field every week that they should be punished when they have one bad race (comparing Kevin Harvick 2020 to Matt Kenseth 2003) This is what they grew up on so, it doesn't come across as a problem for many of them. To most of this newer crowd, its just change because they weren't around to enjoy what it was like before. And this is reflected in the drivers, their attitude, and even in the leadership within NASCAR itself. I'm not saying NASCAR should never change, but, and I know I'm preaching to the choir, but dang, not every change is good and it should be a simple thing to just go back to what worked and maybe try something else a bit more on the conservative side instead of drastic changes.
Amazing points all throughout here. You're absolutely right. Fans born in 2004 (same year as that Truck race at Gateway) turn 18 this year. They quite literally have never known a NASCAR without the chase/playoffs and GWC/overtime. It would be a complete reversal of what they grew up on.
Just curious, what would be that distinction for you? Which ones are you in favor of OT and which ones would you end at the scheduled distance no matter what?
Alright, I see Reddit got a hold of this. Welcome to any new viewers. If you want to argue the other side here in the comments, I encourage that. Really, I do! I value the importance of people of disagreement coming together in an open forum. Just be aware that I am much more likely to entertain what you have to say if you comment with civility and basic courtesy. Simply calling the video "BS", "a horrendous take", and telling me to just go watch IndyCar instead won't get you very far here.
While I wouldn't have too many issues with races ending under yellow (though I have zero issues with the GWC policy in NASCAR). I'd feel like a policy change now would create more issues than what we would have now, and you get either more red flags or half-assed cleanups that may lead to unsafe conditions. I do end up seeing a lot of series nowadays try to go for ending the races under green, with the utilization of red flags to ensure a green-flag finish like what IndyCar did a few times last year, what F1 did at Baku last year, and what V8 Supercars did at the Bathurst 1000 in 2019. Another point is the claim for more wreck fests, but in reality, that's only a common issue at plate tracks. There have been a total of 138 Cup Series OT races (or races that have gone past the scheduled distance), only 18 of those have gone into multiple OT, and half of that (including both 3 OT races) have been at plate tracks. Certainly, you see anomalies, like last year's Indy RC, but generally, most OT issues usually come down to the plate tracks. I do respect your opinion, and while it is a good video, and made some good points (like how it was a mid-season rule change). In the end, I don't have too many concerns (aside from plate tracks) that would make my stance change on this, and have no problem keeping the policy as it is. I am also fine with the current policy of racing towards the scheduled distance in other racing series like IndyCar and F1, but you'd run the risk of stuff as I mentioned in the first paragraph happing.
Thank you BMG12. It’s hardly the biggest problem with the sport today, that’s for sure. Honestly my biggest issue comes down to numbers. That “500” in Daytona 500 ought to have significance and almost every year it ends up becoming inaccurate.
Thank you Hunter. Some of the comments have led to positive dialogue, but it’s a shame many on Reddit took one look at the title and immediately downvoted and disliked without even watching the full thing.
Anyone who was around for the 2002-2004 era when there was so much controversy about yellow flag finishes and when to red-flag a race, seeing fans throw stuff at Jeff Gordon and Michael Waltrip even, knows that this video is a horrendous take.
@@RJ_Nesher Once again, the 1st most popular driver was on the other end of it. With all due respect, that's not the greatest example. Junior got screwed at Talladega in 2006 for a completely different reason and they threw stuff at Vickers. I think it's more a "Junior got screwed" issue rather than a "we need to extend the race to get an entertaining finish" issue.
@@bcschneider53 Were you around on the message boards or Jayski or listening to XM Radio back in 2002-2004? If you were, you would know that yellow flag finishes were as much of an angry talking point then as the 550 HP package was in 2019-2021, especially after racing back to the caution was ended in 2003.
@@RJ_Nesher I can't and won't argue there because I *wasn't* there. I had just turned five years old when all this was going down. Here's the thing. Even if I grant to you that it was just as unpopular as "the package" is today, the point I've been trying to make is that fan popularity alone does not determine whether or not something is good or bad. A sizeable portion of the fanbase still doesn't like the fact that Toyota is involved as a manufacturer. That does not automatically make Toyota's presence in NASCAR a bad thing. A sizeable portion of the fanbase cheered when Kevin Harvick failed to make the Championship 4 in 2020. That does not automatically make Harvick's absence from the Championship 4 (despite the fact that he was clearly the most statistically dominant driver that season) a good thing. Also, nothing changed in 2002 that was different than how it was in 1998 when Earnhardt won the 500, right? Or how it was in NASCAR's entire history up to that point, right? Why the sudden outrage around that time? I'm genuinely curious to hear your answer to that since you were there and I wasn't. As I said, I'm well aware a large portion of the fanbase likes the GWC/Overtime rules. But I laid out 17 minutes of arguments for why I don't. The main arguments I've heard today from those that do seem to be "Junior fans were fed up by 2004" and "it's more entertaining to finish under green." It's going to take more than that to convince me that the benefits of NASCAR OT outweigh the drawbacks that I argued here. If you think you *do* have more than that, I welcome that conversation, in all sincerity.
I’ve never been for or against the Green-White-Checkered rule in NASCAR. Like, it’s just there for me. But nowadays, I get personally annoyed when we go GWC. I prefer to see a race end in scheduled distance as advertised (green or yellow) than extend the race. The NASCAR “fans” who whined and cried about how the 2020 Indy 500 ended and wants GWC at that aren’t really Motorsports fans, just NASCAR fans. The GWC isn’t the worst thing in NASCAR, but it’s just…. There. Existing. Its rubbish, but it is just not needed, in my opinion. (It’s not as bad as the disgraceful chase tho)
This is one of them rules that I love and hate at the same time Cuz I can circle to Daytona 500 pacifically and say without the green light checker we have certain guys who would have never won the Daytona 500 and then we have guys who would have probably won it without that rule And then I point if you have a race that's been extremely boring and you have a late race caution green white checkered yeah race is turned into recess with green light checkered usually But that's more that the race car driver shuts off the common sense in their brain and quits using the break I just start using everybody else's break I should know I am one Yeah there's negatives to the rule but I think the positives outweigh the negatives torque race cars that can happen anytime during a race maybe not to the extent but positives are the underdog winners that have popped up David Reagan comes to mind I think he want to race on a green white checkered I think he nearly won the Daytona 500 and it was a late restart that took it from him And how many times has that put someone you haven't seen all day in the race and position to win especially in the super speedways I don't really mind it I kind of wish they would just do away with the white flag rule part and re-rack them even when the white flags out and not make the race official until we get a someone who's crossed the start finish line under green flag conditions Just looking forward to having some off throttle time this year
As a person who mainly watches indycar and fe, it baffles me how a motorsport can be run like this. I have a lot of respect for nascar, it has a deep history and talented drivers. But i have 0 respect for how its run. Its so unbearably gimmicky. If it wasnt so gimmicky id probably watch it.
It would probably work 20 or 30 years ago but todays non drivers cant make it the first lap after green flag without wreaking.lol thats why todays nascar suuuuuuuuuucks!!!!
OK, you’re completely wrong about the Coke 600 thing. You don’t even know what you’re talking about now he moved up a line because a guy ran out after they had already ran several caution laps coming to the green. The race would’ve been over anyway so Junior wouldn’t have won anyway, and by the way, I was furious after that race that he ran out, but that was the rules and yes, I was a junior fan and still am so please just stop.
@@lordvoldemort4944 Well shoot, just went back to rewatch the finish and you’re exactly right. Kasey Kahne was in fact the leader coming to that restart. Greg Biffle was also leading when the yellow was thrown and had to pit. I got that completely wrong and you’re right, I didn’t know what I was talking about here.
My sincere apologies, and thank you for pointing that out. Surprised no one had noticed that before to be honest.
(Edit: after rewatching my own video, I still stand by what I said about OT compromising Junior's race and it still ultimately cost him a handful of spots at the finish, but Lord Voldemort is right, Junior would have only finished 2nd (or perhaps even 3rd!) had the race simply ended under yellow. It's an inexcusable mistake on my part and a good reminder for me to be more careful and diligent with my scriptwriting in the future.
Pinning your comment for my own accountability. I made a real bad, inexcusable mistake here, gotta own up to it.
@@bcschneider53W pin, thank you for this. Not only are you taking accountability, but more importantly to me, you’re doing your best to give out true info.
@@Kirby370Z Thank you.
Never forget the 2015 Talladega fall race when NASCAR randomly changed the 3 GWC attempts back to just one, leading to Harvick literally wrecking the field on purpose as he was running low on fuel on the restart.
Great video lol
A friend of mine mentioned this to me too. Can’t believe I forgot to use that race as an example here. I was too busy that day watching Rossi run his home US Grand Prix for Manor as Lewis won his 3rd F1 title. Lol.
Here after the most Overtime finishes in a single NASCAR Cup Series season at 13 (Including the abysmal ending to Nashville, and the controversial ending to the Brickyard 400)
I meant 12
I do miss racing back to the caution
Would Dale have won 98 Daytona 500?
Given what happened to Kyle Busch in the 2023 Daytona 500, it's hardly a guarantee...
Playoffs, overtime and constantly referencing 'game 7 moments' just screams of an identity crisis.
Nascar need a total reset and leadership that understands what a motorsport is and more importatnly what it isn't.
I ship Liberty Media, and Ben Kennedy as the Heads of NASCAR. They should do this:
• No Playoffs !!! Go Back to a Season Long Format, but this one is a Modified Version of the F1 and IndyCar Points Format:
- 1st - 70
- 2nd - 50
- 3rd - 45
- 4th - 40
- 5th - 37
- 6th - 34
- 7th - 31
- 8th - 28
- 9th - 25
- 10th - 22
- 11th - 20
- 12th - 18
- 13th - 16
- 14th - 14
- 15th - 12
- 16th - 10
- 17th - 9
- 18th - 8
- 19th - 7
- 20th - 6
- 21st - 5
- 22nd - 4
- 23rd - 3
- 24th - 2
- 25th - 1
Points for Qualifying
- 1st - 10
- 2nd - 9
- 3rd - 8
- 4th - 7
- 5th - 6
- 6th - 5
- 7th - 4
- 8th - 3
- 9th - 2
- 10th - 1
• No More Yellow Line Rule at Daytona and Talladega
• No More Overtime Rule
• No More Charter System, Owner Points, and Top 35 Rule, No More 4 Cars Per Team Rule, New Teams who want to Enter a Race Has a Shot to Make it to the 40 - 43 Car Field, via LCQ
My take:
Revert to the 1975 Winston Cup format, but add an extra 25 points to the winner. 200 points for 1st, 170 for 2nd, etc.
Keep stages, but remove the cautions for the end of a stage. 5 points to a stage winner.
Green-white-checkered at select races. (All-star race, some short tracks, etc.)
I’d take this over what we have now for sure. If NASCAR wants to emphasize winning, a significant points difference from 1st to 2nd compared to 2nd and 3rd is the way to go, similar to what F1 does with their system.
Thanks to NASCAR, something akin to overtime happened in the finale of the 2021 F1 season...
Don't forget: Green-white-checkered isn't really a gimmick. It's a trade-off to losing the ability to race back to the line before the frozen field was a thing.
It's the simplest way to make sure instant cautions allow safety crews to get to drivers, but also allow the race to end with a fight to the line like they always used to.
Also, I bet F1 wishes they had something like this right about now...
1) With all due respect, GWC is the definition of a gimmick. It extends the race simply because it happened to be under caution at the end of the scheduled distance to maximize entertainment.
2) If the last two months are any indication, this is the LAST thing F1 needs right about now...
@@bcschneider53 Would you say racing back to the line was something along those same lines?
I understand your argument about extending the race length, but besides that, one could argue every format that doesn't just pause the race under caution and call it a day is gimmicky.
NASCAR always had some form of trying to end a race with a run to the flag. GWC is just an evolution of that.
@@danielwest9955 Honestly, in the interest of safety, I would take what we have now over racing back to the line. It’s one of those things that you look back on and wonder how NASCAR did it for so long before running into a situation like they did with Jarrett.
I do consider racing back to the line a bit of a gimmick. Once the caution is displayed, it’s out. The lights are on. Why would speeding and improving your position be okay just because you happened to do it before you completed another lap by crossing the line? The field should be frozen the moment the lights come on, especially with the scoring loop technology we have today.
@@bcschneider53 Totally respect that take!
@@danielwest9955 Thank you! It’s a shame we can’t agree to disagree like this on the Internet more often these days.
Hard disagree.
Sitting through an entire race just to have a race with four to go end under caution was the worst blue balls imaginable. There's a reason GWC made it out of the Truck Series and into every major NASCAR series.
Fair enough. Like I said, I know GWC has its fans and I respect that. Ending a race under caution is certainly a disappointment, but from a motorsports integrity standpoint, I think it’s the right call in many circumstances.
Yeah it can be a bit deflating when a race ends under a caution.
But that's just racing sometimes.
I like racing back. If there’s a car in the way either red flag/ double caution the race and end it there under “caution or double yellow”. Or you can let everyone come down get gas and go for 1 or multiple “green, white, checkered.” I think racing back is the ideal finish.
Ok. Overtime, Needs... To Be Done, 1, Atempt.
I'll take one attempt over unlimited, that's for sure.
@@bcschneider53Yeah.
Instead of doing Overtime NASCAR should do what IndyCar or F1 does, do a 15 - 20 Minute Timed Race towards the End for a Race To End Under Green and Not Under Yellow
A green white checker "Overtime" is a worst of both worlds solution. Not only have you bunched the field at the exact time they're driving their absolute hardest, not only is there a massive time pressure to get as far up the field as possible in such a short window as *two freaking laps,* but you have thrown an unnecessary monkey into pit strategy since the extra distance has to be taken into account!
I would rather have just calling the race official short of the scheduled distance if a late-race caution comes out, just like a rain caution past the halfway point, than have this needlessly short shootout at the end.
All I want is NASCAR (and even Indycar) to have one single guaranteed restart. Seeing a caution come out in Indycar with like 8 to go ending the race is absurd, but seeing crash after crash through multiple restarts in NASCAR is even worse. In my perfect world, a caution with 2 to go should end the race, a caution with any more than 2 to go should have a single guaranteed restart.
Change 2 to 3 and I’d be willing to compromise here. I definitely get the desire for a green flag finish over one under caution, I just disagree with the “at all costs” aspect of it.
@@bcschneider53 honestly it really all depends on the track, and it’s really hard to say that a caution after this arbitrary lap number ends the race but before it leads to a restart, kinda why using the white flag works for it. I’m really just all in favor of 1 GWC attempt in nascar and maybe working out something that could work in Indycar without using red flags.
@@jacobevenson8702 fair enough!
As a European (I think that's important because im not too big of a NASCAR fan), i think it would be more fair if they were just more trigger happy with red flags instead of cautions at the end of the race. And maybe they can add some sort of rule that excludes the restart formation lap(s) from the total number of laps to have it still finish under green.
The last good rule was the Hans Device but every rule since has been a gimmick
One of the most ridiculous instances was the spring race at Bristol a few years ago (I don't remember which year it was), when they had gone past the scheduled distance under caution because of a rain shower. It was raining hard enough that they red-flagged the race after it had passed 500 laps, but by God, they had to get that green flag finish or else.
Totally agree, I hate overtime just as much as the playoffs. Completely artificial and unnecessary. Throws out the strategy and work of the teams while tearing up tons of race cars. Plus it encourages NASCA to throw cautions for things that are probably not cautions all in the name of a "close finish". It seems to be artificial "entertainment" over true racing and sport these days.
Now the question is, should NASCAR implement a virtual safety car like in F1 so that cars don't wreck each other as often during restarts?
Good question, but I’m not sure how well that would work on ovals. It would definitely be an interesting concept for them to try though…
@@bcschneider53 Not sure why it took me 2 years to think about it, but perhaps the best use for this concept would be for debris (or other low risks) cautions.
I just hate that every single race seems to end this way. I guess it’s better than every race ending under caution but it feels contrived that there’s always a late race caution to bring about overtime for a too short shoot out
Just let them race back to the line under caution again.
Overtime is basically just that over, and over, and over, and over again.
Also mid-season rule changes are the dumbest thing I've ever heard of, you can't just change the damn rules before the game is done, come on!
I would not complain about races finished under caution since this motorsports. But I would complain race distance being extended because of entertainment. I watched 2011 Coca cola 600, as HMS fan, it's pain to see Junior's win gone off the window because of arbitrary GWC.
I disagree. The 2004 Talladega race was the first race I went to. It's very disappointing to have it end under yellow and not getting to see Jr and Gordon race to the checkered flag. Also, these are supposed to be a lot of the best stock car racers. It's more of their own fault if they tear up their equipment because they are too aggressive and careless. There are many newer changes that I don't like, such as playoffs, stages, and double file restarts, but this isn't one.
Anyone else here after the Nashville Horor show.
I Haven't watched NASCAR since the early 2000's, all their formats ruined the sport. The playoff system is complete BS... who cares what you did the first 2/3 of the season... just win the last race and you are the Champ!? Makes zero sense.
I've always been of the thought that a race should end at its scheduled distance. It's the Daytona 500, not Daytona 520.
But you're talking about an organization that thinks stages and playoffs belong in motorsports. I dislike the overtime rule also, but it's not near as bad as the stupid ass point reset and "GaMe 7 MoMeNtS".
Everything gets filed under the category of manufactured drama these days…
@@bcschneider53 surely NASCAR is aware of how their inconsistency and indecisiveness has alienated much of their core fanbase. I mean, I still love it, but between the changes and now they're trying to be woke, I don't know how long it's gonna last. But they're in the business of making money, not making their most dedicated fans happy. Sometimes one doesn't necessarily lead to the other.
But I can't help but feel like Bill Jr. would never have allowed most of the changes of the last 10 years. Stages, playoffs, overtime, caution clocks, ect.
@@-BigMike- I agree with most of what you’re saying but not sure I get this idea that NASCAR has fully gone “woke.” All they’ve really done is push for expanded opportunities for minorities and women in the sport and ban the display of the Confederate flag, both of which I think are good things.
The rest I completely agree with though. It signals a desire to want to align more closely with mainstream stick-and-ball sports over the rest of the motorsports world, which I think is has been a mistake for the most part…
@@bcschneider53 first off, I'm a black man. So don't take what I say as hateful or anything. But NASCAR has been open to minorities and women for YEARS, they just didn't go on and on how they're so inclusive and stand with Bubba and all that mess. But I think people should get opportunities based on their talent, not their skin color. I know I wouldn't want to take a job that I didn't earn, as a man, that wouldn't be very satisfying. So there's a fine line between inclusivity and being woke. My cousin has worked for Ganassi, Spire, StarCom and a few other teams. He was invited to practice and impressed and got the job. They didn't say well, since your black, you're hired!
But the fact of the matter is, most minorities don't care for NASCAR. Our car culture is big bodys and rims. Not horsepower and muscle. Growing up, I knew ZERO black people that watched or cared to watch...and that's living within 30 minutes to Darlington. We were under the impression it was dumb rednecks driving in circles. The only reason I got into NASCAR was because my cousin took me to Daytona in 05. I was hooked once I was there. From day 1 at my first race, I've been treated like family at every track I've ever been to. To act like NASCAR wasn't inclusive before Darrell Wallace is wrong. But they want to hold him on a pedestal because he is black, not because he has the best talent.
I don't know, I just always felt that the best companies at inclusivity were the ones that don't beat you over the head with it constantly. They're pushing Darrell as a star for one reason. That's because of his skin color. Nothing else. That's woke in my eyes.
@@bcschneider53 sorry so long, but I didn't want to give the wrong impression. Just wanted to give you my opinion. Also, the confederate flag hasn't done anything to hinder my life and I never felt hate because of it. You can't judge a whole race of people off of something that happened 150 years ago. So I'm fine with it being at races or not. Doesn't really matter to me, tbh.
So... while I agree that there would be an uproar if it was gotten rid of... I mean... you can't rely on social media all that much. There may be a few thousand that will fuss about it, vehemently, but most of us won't object as much.
So... this is one of those things that sounds great in concept to allow for a green flag finish, but here is where I would side with Rusty Wallace. It causes way more problems, specifically at superspeedways. Stages already cause the races to be up to an hour longer. Add 5 or 6 attempts at a 2 lap green flag finish because drivers get impatient and desperate and do stupid things, specifically the younger guys, you wind up with a 5 hour race with 10 or so guys in the race. The other part of this is that there really isn't a serious justification for this. How often does a race end under caution? Not very. And look at how the system was abused with the phantom cautions just to set up a "dramatic finish". Does it serve to please those who think wrecks are exciting? Yes. Does it serve to setup a dramatic finish? Obviously. But... at what cost? Do we constantly want to put drivers in more danger than they already are just to not let roughly 2/36 races finish under caution? This has constantly been in an effort to make NASCAR, a motorsport, like other stick and ball sports and it comes across as either desperate to appeal to fans who don't care about motorsports or almost as if it's ashamed to be a motosport in the first place. It's just so funny how there needs to be all of these changes made when, during the time when NASCAR was at peak popularity, they hadn't changed a dang thing yet. Lol. But... this is where people can be taken advantage of because most of the core fans have left and there is a newer, younger crowd that was not around during the 90s or early 2000s. They only know the chase and overtime. They only know the COT and the gen 6 cars and boring racing with phantom cautions and manufactured tension. Spectacular crash after crash on superspeedways. Conga line pack racing, or packs so glued together drivers are basically stuck. They were taught that races where someone dominates a race is boring.. They were taught when someone spanks the field every week that they should be punished when they have one bad race (comparing Kevin Harvick 2020 to Matt Kenseth 2003) This is what they grew up on so, it doesn't come across as a problem for many of them. To most of this newer crowd, its just change because they weren't around to enjoy what it was like before. And this is reflected in the drivers, their attitude, and even in the leadership within NASCAR itself. I'm not saying NASCAR should never change, but, and I know I'm preaching to the choir, but dang, not every change is good and it should be a simple thing to just go back to what worked and maybe try something else a bit more on the conservative side instead of drastic changes.
Amazing points all throughout here. You're absolutely right. Fans born in 2004 (same year as that Truck race at Gateway) turn 18 this year. They quite literally have never known a NASCAR without the chase/playoffs and GWC/overtime. It would be a complete reversal of what they grew up on.
Certain races they should have overtime, certain ones they shouldn't. I'm 50% for and 50% against it
Just curious, what would be that distinction for you? Which ones are you in favor of OT and which ones would you end at the scheduled distance no matter what?
Alright, I see Reddit got a hold of this. Welcome to any new viewers.
If you want to argue the other side here in the comments, I encourage that. Really, I do! I value the importance of people of disagreement coming together in an open forum. Just be aware that I am much more likely to entertain what you have to say if you comment with civility and basic courtesy.
Simply calling the video "BS", "a horrendous take", and telling me to just go watch IndyCar instead won't get you very far here.
While I wouldn't have too many issues with races ending under yellow (though I have zero issues with the GWC policy in NASCAR). I'd feel like a policy change now would create more issues than what we would have now, and you get either more red flags or half-assed cleanups that may lead to unsafe conditions. I do end up seeing a lot of series nowadays try to go for ending the races under green, with the utilization of red flags to ensure a green-flag finish like what IndyCar did a few times last year, what F1 did at Baku last year, and what V8 Supercars did at the Bathurst 1000 in 2019.
Another point is the claim for more wreck fests, but in reality, that's only a common issue at plate tracks. There have been a total of 138 Cup Series OT races (or races that have gone past the scheduled distance), only 18 of those have gone into multiple OT, and half of that (including both 3 OT races) have been at plate tracks. Certainly, you see anomalies, like last year's Indy RC, but generally, most OT issues usually come down to the plate tracks.
I do respect your opinion, and while it is a good video, and made some good points (like how it was a mid-season rule change). In the end, I don't have too many concerns (aside from plate tracks) that would make my stance change on this, and have no problem keeping the policy as it is. I am also fine with the current policy of racing towards the scheduled distance in other racing series like IndyCar and F1, but you'd run the risk of stuff as I mentioned in the first paragraph happing.
Thank you BMG12. It’s hardly the biggest problem with the sport today, that’s for sure.
Honestly my biggest issue comes down to numbers. That “500” in Daytona 500 ought to have significance and almost every year it ends up becoming inaccurate.
Just ask Truex about how stupid overtimes are
Great video Ben! I'm gonna get some popcorn 🍿 for all the salt in the comments. They're just mad that you're right 😤
Thank you Hunter. Some of the comments have led to positive dialogue, but it’s a shame many on Reddit took one look at the title and immediately downvoted and disliked without even watching the full thing.
Dale Jr fans is responsible for Logano’s 2024 championship
Anyone who was around for the 2002-2004 era when there was so much controversy about yellow flag finishes and when to red-flag a race, seeing fans throw stuff at Jeff Gordon and Michael Waltrip even, knows that this video is a horrendous take.
You really think fans would have been throwing stuff if you swap Gordon for Dale Jr at that Talladega race?
@@bcschneider53 They threw stuff at Michael Waltrip at Daytona in 2002, and he was arguably the 3rd most popular driver at the time
@@RJ_Nesher Once again, the 1st most popular driver was on the other end of it. With all due respect, that's not the greatest example. Junior got screwed at Talladega in 2006 for a completely different reason and they threw stuff at Vickers. I think it's more a "Junior got screwed" issue rather than a "we need to extend the race to get an entertaining finish" issue.
@@bcschneider53 Were you around on the message boards or Jayski or listening to XM Radio back in 2002-2004? If you were, you would know that yellow flag finishes were as much of an angry talking point then as the 550 HP package was in 2019-2021, especially after racing back to the caution was ended in 2003.
@@RJ_Nesher I can't and won't argue there because I *wasn't* there. I had just turned five years old when all this was going down.
Here's the thing. Even if I grant to you that it was just as unpopular as "the package" is today, the point I've been trying to make is that fan popularity alone does not determine whether or not something is good or bad. A sizeable portion of the fanbase still doesn't like the fact that Toyota is involved as a manufacturer. That does not automatically make Toyota's presence in NASCAR a bad thing. A sizeable portion of the fanbase cheered when Kevin Harvick failed to make the Championship 4 in 2020. That does not automatically make Harvick's absence from the Championship 4 (despite the fact that he was clearly the most statistically dominant driver that season) a good thing.
Also, nothing changed in 2002 that was different than how it was in 1998 when Earnhardt won the 500, right? Or how it was in NASCAR's entire history up to that point, right? Why the sudden outrage around that time? I'm genuinely curious to hear your answer to that since you were there and I wasn't.
As I said, I'm well aware a large portion of the fanbase likes the GWC/Overtime rules. But I laid out 17 minutes of arguments for why I don't. The main arguments I've heard today from those that do seem to be "Junior fans were fed up by 2004" and "it's more entertaining to finish under green." It's going to take more than that to convince me that the benefits of NASCAR OT outweigh the drawbacks that I argued here.
If you think you *do* have more than that, I welcome that conversation, in all sincerity.
I’ve never been for or against the Green-White-Checkered rule in NASCAR. Like, it’s just there for me. But nowadays, I get personally annoyed when we go GWC. I prefer to see a race end in scheduled distance as advertised (green or yellow) than extend the race. The NASCAR “fans” who whined and cried about how the 2020 Indy 500 ended and wants GWC at that aren’t really Motorsports fans, just NASCAR fans.
The GWC isn’t the worst thing in NASCAR, but it’s just…. There. Existing. Its rubbish, but it is just not needed, in my opinion.
(It’s not as bad as the disgraceful chase tho)
This is one of them rules that I love and hate at the same time
Cuz I can circle to Daytona 500 pacifically and say without the green light checker we have certain guys who would have never won the Daytona 500 and then we have guys who would have probably won it without that rule
And then I point if you have a race that's been extremely boring and you have a late race caution green white checkered yeah race is turned into recess with green light checkered usually
But that's more that the race car driver shuts off the common sense in their brain and quits using the break I just start using everybody else's break I should know I am one
Yeah there's negatives to the rule but I think the positives outweigh the negatives torque race cars that can happen anytime during a race maybe not to the extent but positives are the underdog winners that have popped up David Reagan comes to mind I think he want to race on a green white checkered
I think he nearly won the Daytona 500 and it was a late restart that took it from him
And how many times has that put someone you haven't seen all day in the race and position to win especially in the super speedways
I don't really mind it I kind of wish they would just do away with the white flag rule part and re-rack them even when the white flags out and not make the race official until we get a someone who's crossed the start finish line under green flag conditions
Just looking forward to having some off throttle time this year
As a person who mainly watches indycar and fe, it baffles me how a motorsport can be run like this. I have a lot of respect for nascar, it has a deep history and talented drivers. But i have 0 respect for how its run. Its so unbearably gimmicky. If it wasnt so gimmicky id probably watch it.
It would probably work 20 or 30 years ago but todays non drivers cant make it the first lap after green flag without wreaking.lol thats why todays nascar suuuuuuuuuucks!!!!