@@jakedrage2262I love it! It always gives me a reason to go to gun shows to find brass and cartridges. I never find any, but it gives me a reason to look. I have a buddy who shoots .243 and was comparing my WSSM box to his normal .243 and that’s when I learned a new trick. If they realize there’s no difference they understand ballistics. 😂 My grandfather left me the rifle and a few boxes of ammo, costs about $100 in ammo to sight in alone so I’ll probably leave it alone.
I love both my model 70s, I love on them daily. They feed awesome too. If they came out with a compact B-14 in 243 WSSM I’d go right now and do the paper work
Those beat up boxes looked like every box I ever saw on the shelf at fleet farm.....opened by 1000 guys just to look at the cartridge. And never sold a one.
so much praise for Hornady.. lol .. Def not on that Band wagon... 6.5prc, 300prc, 7 prc, .... does nothing special over what already exist.lmfao... and they talk about Unnecessary cartridges... I think they in bed with Hornady for sure
I think on this one, you guys need to stick to what you know. Its one thing to look at it on paper and hear bro stories. But those that owned them love them. I owned a 243wssm model 70 for 15 years. Best rifle and cartridge ive ever owned. Never had any feeding issues. Also i live in NZ and ive never had issue getting ammo. Not once in the 15 years. My local shop always had it stocked for me and he never had an issue getting it. One of the reasons for making it short and fat was to get a more consistent/fast burn providing better accuracy. I know mine was sub moa out of the box.
I had a 25 wssm and just sold it a few weeks ago. First and foremost, amazing round. It did everything I asked it to from coyote to deer to elk to caribou with 125 grains out to 350 yards. A lot of great hints with impressive results of not a single animal going more than 30 yards after impact. I bought every box I could 5 years ago since it started becoming scarce. I stockpiled 120 rounds. I’m glad I did because for the past 5 years I haven’t seen a box. I reached out and contacted Winchester and they said the product is discontinued. Terrible to do this to the consumer. Long story short, stick with a carriage that’s established to ensure you can enjoy it over your lifetime
If a person can get enough brass you could hand load it to for many years, but if a person don’t hand load yes definitely need to stick with a relatively popular round.
25 WSSM was the best of them all. I bought a bunch of brass for it and don’t even have a rifle. My buddy wild-catted it up to 7mm, shooting 195gr EOL for PRS so ROs are left with no doubt when he connects. Brutal on steel.
This is why I don't trust brand new cartridges. They need to be on the market for at least 20 years and have good cartridge support for me to consider buying one. It's hard enough chasing all my old cartridges that have limited cartridge support. I don't need a brand new one that has non
The cartridge was a market-failure, but not a performance failure. It was an excellent idea with a mediocre execution, and horrible marketing. *The central point of the marketing **_SHOULD_** have been that it would fit into an AR-15.* People who put it into bolt-guns... go for it, but it's pointless, because it's all of the hassle with a novel-cartridge with none of the ballistic improvement over the original - or at least no practical or functional difference. _It should have been all about the AR-15._ But at the time, the AR-15 - while popular - wasn't nearly as popular as it is now. And now we have the 6 ARC which does what the 243 wssm _SHOULD_ have been. Decent cartridge, terrible marketing, even worse support, and came out at the wrong time.
The 25 WSSM and 30 OSSM take the AR-15 into bolt gun long action performance of the 25-06 and 30-06, as long as you used the Olympic or D-Tech uppers and D-Tech mags. Winchester is really sitting on a gem series of cartridges and rifle sales potential if they revived this with .264”, .277”, and .308” variants. This case absolutely hammers with the larger bore diameters, and has a more appropriate bore ratio to propellant volume and case diameter. A little .270 WSSM would be really sick in the AR-15 type action, but it of course requires a much larger bolt, barrel extension, and magazine solution. .270 WSSM would deliver .270 Winchester performance easily. Much less constrained when evacuating the bore, would generate insane speeds with 120-140gr.
One of the board members at the Church I go to has the .223 wssm and said he loves it. Never seen it shot though. The first time he show it to me he says “Do you wanna see something you’ve probably never seen?” Boy was her right. A year later after that I work at a Gun shop in my home town and just a week and a half before this Cartridge Talk was posted I actually had a customer stop in and ask if we had any .223 wssm. All the other guys younger than me, were perplexed by the idea of it and could not imagine the idea of it.
I have 2, one Winchester in Polymer and one in laminate wood. Mock it is you like but it’s flat, hot and incredibly accurate, and more efficient in powder performance. And reloaded, I can burn it hot! So, like… whatever you guys lol
Great episode gentlemen ! Agree 100% ! You know what's NOT a lead balloon ? The .358win !! We are all so excited about the upcoming Cartridge Talk episode on the venerable .358 !!! jmp
I was working at a gunshop when they came out. The biggest issue was every WSSM we sold we'd get back because they wouldn't feed. Some people didn't want to send them back for a couple months for warranty, so we'd work on it. Never got one to feed with more than 2 in the mag. Might have been able to manage 3 if we kept working on it, but people didn't want to spend another hour or two of shop time for one more round.
You just made my day! Been hoping for this one since I watched your first lead balloon! The thing that really caught my attention with this cartridge a couple years ago was the fact that it could be made to fit in an AR-15 platform, specifically the 25 cal version of the cartridge. Without that it doesn't hold much for me. I did explore the possibility of rebarrelling a Howa Mini in 25 WSSM, but quickly abandoned the idea. But the idea of having 25-06 performance in a lightweight AR-15 is VERY attractive to me. I don't know of any other cartridge in that platform that can deliver the same external and terminal performance out to 400yds. The only reason I haven't picked one up is because the only maker of a 25WSSM upper sells them for a whopping $1,200, and that combined with the cost of brass made it a hard sell for me. So instead I went and bought a 6mm ARC and never looked back. Well, almost never. I confess I do still think about it from time to time...
This conversation misses the whole point on why it was invented and why it failed. As a “few” have already mentioned this line of cartridges was created to run in an ar15. I have shot the 25 wssm extensively out of an ar, and it delivers in every way. The reason it failed is because you could only shoot light for caliber bullets, because of OAL. The current trend of heavy for caliber (high bc) bullets killed this cartridge line. There is no better deer slayer, in an ar15 than 25wssm.
I owned a model 70 featherweight in 25 WSSM. I enjoyed it and it really did a number on whitetail, hogs, coyotes and one black bear. I only sold it because I don’t hand load. The friend I sold it to still has it and absolutely loves it.
That's one that definitely needs to see the light of day. I really like that 400 legend case. Who wouldn't want a 6 arc with more case capacity that allows use of a stronger bolt? Everybody got hung up trying to push the longest for caliber bullets out of the ar as possible, making the cases shorter and shorter to do so, and loosing the powder capacity necessary to make those super heavy bullets effective. The argument "well those super heavy high bc bullets overtake the lighter ones at 900 yards" doesn't really matter when nobody is shooting anything besides plinking at dirt banks or gongs at 900 yards with those rounds in an ar. In reality, most people wind up using much lighter bullets in those cartridges to get some speed and better mid range trajectory back, but they still don't have the powder capacity they could have had with a longer case that was made for those mid weight range bullets. I hope more people find out about the 6 max and it becomes popular. It would make a great reasonable distance hunting round. Necked down to .22, it would make an awesome varmint cartridge for up to about 80 grain bullets.
I decided to learn this cartridge. I purchased three Winchester M-70 s. I handloaded for this cartridge and eventually had one fitted with a custom barrel. As a varmint rifle, I had two problems with the cartridge. Unlike my .22-250 Ackleys, I never saw the impact of a bullet from this cartridge. Recoil was too much, just like a .243 Winchester. I like .224 bullets that go zoom for varmints better than the .243 WSSM. Never once with a Model 70, to this day, did I have a magazine feed or extraction issue. Very smooth. As a handloader, I appreciate the M-70 bolt can be disassembled to remove the firing pin, so I can find the lands when seating bullets. You can check your OAL, with live rounds that cannot go bang, because you removed the firing pin. Having handloaded thousands of .243 WSSM rounds, the problem is the brass and the chamber. The Winchester cases have necks that are 0.024 thick. You can't begin to move the shoulder with a Rock Chucker Press. You can split a Redding size die in a Redding Ultramag press. You have to turn the necks before you can size them with a press.
243 has too much recoil ??? Maybe it's because I'm Canadian and grew up shooting 303, 30-06, 7.62x54r but Americans always seem so soft when it comes to recoil.
@@justacentrist4147 He doesn’t mean it’s uncomfortable recoil, he means it’s enough so that you can’t keep the target in the scope, which is important for coyote hunting. Hence the point that it’s easier to hold on target with the 22-250 Ackley than the 243.
@@ChitFromChinola never really had a problem holding a 243 on Target. For repeatable shots. But I guess you could be correct for a smaller frame shooter
I have a Win M70 custom built on a 26” barrel, with a 1:14 twist. For light bullets going lightning fast. I did have some feeding issues. However, the gun could shoot 2.25” groups at 500 yards. You could watch the woodchucks come apart in the scope. Heavy gun with a Holland muzzle break was awesome for watching impacts. Mostly I shoot 55 gr Nosler BT, but I’ve loaded 70 gr Sierra BlitzKings too. I also have a regular M70 243 Win. I have very obvious increases in accuracy and performance over the original. But, it’s because of how I built it. People do Ackley Improved cases all the time for 100-150 fps increase. So probably not correct to say it’s not enough of a performance gain. You gain accuracy too. All the bench rest guys know “short and fat is where it’s at!”
I had the 25- WSSM , Boy did it take down game like a bolt of lightning. Great round, wish brass was still here. Back to my 7mm-08 I guess so I'm happy.
25 WSSM is like 25-06 in a short little bottle with far superior ES and SDs, with a propellant column that actually gets converted and doesn’t spit powder out of the muzzle like all the -06s and -08s. 87-90gr at 3600fps from a 22” barrel, tight SDs. Actually beats the 25-06 by 200fps with 87-90gr from a shorter barrel: 87/90gr 25 WSSM 22” barrel: 3600fps with 2 powders, 3550 with many other powders 25-06 24” barrel: 3400fps with 3 powders, 3300fps with 5 powders Both are lightning bolts on animals of all types. The 25 WSSM is an excellent 22” compact, lightweight option for a mountain rifle for mulies, bear, and elk for 300-350yd no-hold shots.
Another informative video thanks for the information you guys have.this one seems to be a bigger lead balloon than the 280 Remington or the 338 Federal in my opinion
The 223 WSSM in particular had a bad rep as a barrel melter. I remember in an older edition of the usually mild mannered Hornady manual, the write up of that cartridge ended with an unusually blunt “This round is HARD on barrels.”
I think they’re being a little unfair with this, for the time the 243 WSSM was a pretty nice step up, and it was a really good deer cartridge, if you look at the numbers the 243 WSSM compares really well to the new 22 creedmoore and actually beats it to around the 100-150 yard mark, they should really re-release it as a cheaper competitor to the 22 creedmoore the ballistics are very good for it and they already had a semi-good platform that could be even more refined with new technologies
@mryang3644 Most of the wildcatters use the 270 wsm cartridge case. Easier to neck down. Only issue is that when loading up to max pressure it spikes quickly.
I had almost all but forgotten the wssm line. And honestly thr wsm and rsum line really was only saved by the wildcaters, f, and benchrest guys to where it's wild watching the 300 wsm actually start making a comeback
When i bought my A Bolt 25 wssm back in 2005 a box of shells was 21.99 a box. I currently have 5 boxes of Winchester 120 graniers and 5 boxes of HSM 117 grainers. They cost around $50 a box. My brother has 13 boxes of Winchester 95 grainers for his 243 wssm. And further more these calibers aren't any more ludicrous as the 6 arc, 6 creedmore, 6 dasher, and others. But haters gonna hate. Both of these guns shoot MOA groups and we've never had any feeding issues. The only downfall to these were only Winchester and Browning were the only 2 manufacturers that built them. There was a couple of custom gun builders that built them for just a little while. If more brands chambered rifles in these calibers they'd be on the shelves in gun stores the same as the 243 win and the 2506.
I wanna hear your guys opinion on what can be done to advance our external and terminal ballistic abilities at large. Get some guys from all facets of the game on a panel to weigh in, a barrel manufacturer, a ballistician, a bullet manufacturer, a silencer manufacturer, powder manufacturer, hit up the guys from alpha munitions to talk about brass, etc. I have a feeling some serious innovation could come from a public forum of experts sharing ideas with each other.
I get 3900 FPS with my 223 WSSM 60 grain Barnes Measured with my Garmin, but the Remington 700 Factory Rifle is in 1/10 Twist. I feel it would be Awesome in 1/7 twist . Shoots 1/2 in 100 Yards.
During the lock down when all the TP disappeared i went everywhere in dfw looking for regular 243 ammo for my wifes hunting rifle. Scheels had tge 243 wssm on the shelf in various loadings. Nobody had any common stuff though. I ended up buying brass and bullets and hand loading a hunting load for the wife.
Funny how he says"We dont need another S "..... lmfao ...... and your 300Super wsm .... Theres an S there... Especially just a normal 300 brass, unmod,.... yea, Def not needed either😂
Mostly it was no availability of good quality cases. Both the 7mm wsm and 300 wsm was being used in long range shooting. Then they could not get hit cades. Alpha just started offering 300 wsm cases.
You got close to the reason the WSSM cartridges existed. Short light weight rifles that handle so much better than a longer action and longer barrel to get similar performance. My 243 WSSM gets 3250 fps with a 100 gr bullet in a 22 inch barrel but only with RL 26. Luckily I have plenty of this powder.
If I remember correctly the early rifles didn’t feed well. Browning supposedly fixed the problem. The 25 WSSM was the star. It’s a shame that cartridge didn’t survive either.
I have a 25 wssm. Its a great rifle. No feeding issues and very accurate. What drove the wssm to being obsolete where two things. Supposedly the 223 and the 243 where good for throat erosion and as for the 25 it seems not to be an issue. Another issue with the wssm was a lawsuit between Jamison v. Olin Corporation-Winchester Division. I think that the wssm could be better now with modern bullets. The 6.8 Western is a close representative to what the wssm could be.
We have a 223wssm in a abolt. It is actually a really good little rifle. Haven’t had a lot of feeding issues and very accurate. Also very very fast as stated in the show 55gr vmax above 4K if you load it. I would say it’s a good unit.
.243 WSSM was one that I saw when I was just really starting to become interested in firearms and hunting. I looked into it and I was like...this offers next to nothing more over a standard action cartidge. If I wanted a short magnum, I'd go for the .300 WSM. Wonder what it would take to build a .300 WSM in a AR10? Now that would be a nice rifle.
If you make a chambering for a rifle sell the rifles for good money and then less than a decade later stop producing said cartridge you owe everyone who bought these rifles a new rifle with available ammo. Just my opinion.
Buying guns is like the stock market buddy. If you go with something tried and true, you’re going to keep or improve your value. If you go with something untried, brand new, and what the market ultimately doesn’t want, you’re going to lose money. But I appreciate you guys trying out those crazy calibers. Sure, most of them are terrible and doomed to die, but once in a while, you get a gem.
Every time a lead balloon comes up, I grab my reloading manual to see how they compare to the popular calibers. The 223 wssm was faster but usually within 100fps of the 22-250 over most bullet weights, with the 223 wssm usually burning more powder. The 223 wssm was on par everywhere with the 220 swift. The 243 wssm barely edges out the 243 everywhere except the mid weight bullets (75-80gr.) Where the 243 wssm was about 200fps faster. The 25 wssm was within 100fps slowly than the 25-06 everywhere, but looked to average 10-12% less powder. I'm thinking 25 caliber and 6.5mm should have been where the wssm family needed to lived, but 223 and 243 were probably chosen because of market popularity at the time.
Before Indiana changed its regulations to allow standard cartridges, one gun maker offered a 358 WSSM to comply with the cartridge criteria at the time. I was excited until I learned he wanted over $2k for a rifle and more for the cartridges, dies, etc.
One of the cool variants in the early days was a 358 to meet Indianas original 1.625” coal limit later in the years Indiana lifted the limit to 1.8” where it stands today for public land where the 308 and wsm based cartridges started to shine. Lot of old tc encores floating around in those wildcat calibers Beats the heck out of a 357 mag or 44
The died because of the timing of the release. All of the Wssm cartridges scream to be in an AR-15. Mine are on Olympic arms UMAR lowers, my friends and on standard lowers. On an AR there’s no feeding issues. The case is the same length as the Grendel, ARC, and the BR. The capacity is the same as the creedmoor or extremely close. So you have a creedmoor velocity (or more since the Wssm is a half inch shorter) in an ARC action length. The only thing you have to do to put a WSSM in an AR-15 is change the barrel, bolt, and magazine just like an ARC. So a good project for you to do is to take a 300 OSSM (30-25 WSSM) and do the same thing as you did for the 300 super WSM. And then you should be able to run it in a regular WSM action.
You need a different upper receiver too due to the diameter of the bolt and barrel extension. Olympic Arms did it, then D-Tech. It kinda begs for a bit longer action if you want to shoot the longer bullets in 25 cal, but with 75-90gr, it beats the 25-06. Awesome little cartridge. I would really like to see a 270 WSSM AR-15 hunter. That would be an absolute pole-ax. I have 6mm, 6.5 Grendel, 25 WSSM all lined up next to each other with a 131gr ACE loaded in the 25 WSSM and it looks totally normal, like a natural line-up of cartridges. The WSSMs really burn the propellant better than most other cartridges, so SDs are extremely tight.
The barrel extension that I have slides right into the Gibbz upper that I am going to use in the build. I think that you are thinking about the 30 Remington AR. I have a 30 Remington AR and wish it was a OSSM. But the 30 Remington AR upper and ammunition was cheap enough when I got it
@@shawnrasmussen9994 WSSM is a larger case diameter than 30 RAR, and both require a different upper. There is hardly any chamber wall thickness left if you stick with a standard AR-15 barrel tennon and extension. Look on D-Tech’s site and you’ll see the photos of how they do it. Ejection port is enlarged significantly as well to clear that fat case. D-Tech started out using Olympic’s special AR-15 uppers, which had enraged barrel extension tunnels, large extensions, and the large bolts. Then D-Tech went to their own billet upper that has thicker walls all around to support the barrel mate, with the larger extension. I like the 30 RAR as well. Remington used a similar approach with an enlarged extension, enlarged tunnel in the upper, large bolt, and dog leg extractor.
The odd lead balloon like this serves a useful purpose. It helps me appreciate the more mainstream rounds. For example, I have .308s and a 7 PRC. If I were into 6s, I would pick a 6 mm ARC for semi-auto and a 6.5 PRC for longer range accuracy for all game up to and maybe including moose. But people are going to always scratch the itch if invention, even if it has a use that no one is really asking for.
The 243 wssm handily compares to the 22 creedmoore I have been praying that Winchester re-releases this cartridge with a small amount of fine tuning I feel they would have the best competitor to the 22 creedmoore especially if they kept them low cost, it’s faster than the creedmoore out to 100-150 yards and has more energy at 100 past that it still keeps up really nicely, I would love to see the renaissance of this cartridge and the whole wssm model everyone who’s hunted with them loves the performance, the only thing I can see is people hate the feeding issue but with todays advancements and a little fine tuning this cartridge could get the love and appreciation it deserves, this cartridge is absolutely devastating on deer and is tremendous for predator hunting, the rifles were nice and slender and compact, good for mountain hunting and youth/woman, I don’t really understand the hate for them I have really considered doing a full custom build of one and if anyone has suggestions on how to do that let me know! 😁
The Model 70s feed great not sure on the brownings. 150ft a second faster is a significant gain over the standard 243 with the factory options you brought up. Puts it right between 240 Weatherby and 243 winchester. May not have been needed but cool none the less. You guys didn't cover anything with the lawsuit against Winchester or them going under as contributing to the super shorts demise either.
I work with a guy that had a 300 wsm, and he loved it. I think all of these were super high psi rounds. Why did these not take off? The gun world is fickle. Things that came out 2 years ago are outdated, not appreciated.
Had a friend buy me a box of .243 on the way to deer camp around 2006... He accidently bought me a box of .243 WSSM... I was very confused when I opened it to go hunting. I still have that box of ammo and no rifle for it, occasionally I will run into it while going through my ammo collection. I never throw it away cause it always makes me giggle when I open it up and look at that squatty little cartridge LOL
I have one in 223 WSSM I have plenty of ammo and also reload. But I set down with it this summer and remembered how bad the feeding was. I laughed and remembered Ryan said "feeds like a duck" this rifle and cartridge i have feeds like a toddler 😂 you have to try and try again. Also it's a controlled round feed Winchester one of the last 200 produced in Connecticut. I wouldn't sell it but wow is it bad
I’m a left handed shooter and no manufactures were producing a left version, so I commissioned a Ruger #1 in 243WSSM in 2006. Your cast both depressed and encouraged me in that I’ve got hundreds of cases ready to be reloaded! Depressed in the fact that your cast probably destroyed in resale opportunity.
It is a very popular cartridge in West Virginia. At least in my area. My dad takes a deer every year with one in Win 70. Light handy accurate no feeding issues and unique.
17 часов назад+1
My father still gas and uses the 223wssm . I have a 270wsm that I'm fond of myself. However I do agree completely agree that all of the wssm rounds were definitely not real gain , BUT still neat to have and yes I do enjoy them . Thank you all for bringing this cartridge up for discussion .
Me holding and slowely petting my A bolt 243 WSSM- “ They don’t know what they’re talking about.”
It was the long range coyote gun before rangefinders
@@jakedrage2262I love it! It always gives me a reason to go to gun shows to find brass and cartridges. I never find any, but it gives me a reason to look.
I have a buddy who shoots .243 and was comparing my WSSM box to his normal .243 and that’s when I learned a new trick. If they realize there’s no difference they understand ballistics. 😂 My grandfather left me the rifle and a few boxes of ammo, costs about $100 in ammo to sight in alone so I’ll probably leave it alone.
I love both my model 70s, I love on them daily. They feed awesome too. If they came out with a compact B-14 in 243 WSSM I’d go right now and do the paper work
It's a turd that didn't need to be invented.
@@rowdysincoherentrambling1426I found a ton of super short and short mag brass years ago. I took it all to the scrap yard where it belongs.😂
Everyone that has ever owned a 243 wssm absolutely loves it. I was laughing soo hard. "It looks funny" and "I heard they dont feed great."
Those beat up boxes looked like every box I ever saw on the shelf at fleet farm.....opened by 1000 guys just to look at the cartridge. And never sold a one.
"This is one of the most serious mistakes we have made." -Winchester
"Hold my EtronX." -Remington
Remington 2020 was also a terrible idea.
Wow, I forgot about the Etron 😂
If Hornady released this today people would be all over it
Yep the spin doctors & influencers would be praising it non stop.
so much praise for Hornady.. lol .. Def not on that Band wagon... 6.5prc, 300prc, 7 prc, .... does nothing special over what already exist.lmfao... and they talk about Unnecessary cartridges... I think they in bed with Hornady for sure
Yep. Rename it 24 Creedmoor or 24 PRC and people will fall all over themselves to buy it.
I have an idea for a lead balloon episode. The 21 sharp rimfire
I think on this one, you guys need to stick to what you know. Its one thing to look at it on paper and hear bro stories. But those that owned them love them. I owned a 243wssm model 70 for 15 years. Best rifle and cartridge ive ever owned. Never had any feeding issues. Also i live in NZ and ive never had issue getting ammo. Not once in the 15 years. My local shop always had it stocked for me and he never had an issue getting it. One of the reasons for making it short and fat was to get a more consistent/fast burn providing better accuracy. I know mine was sub moa out of the box.
I had a 25 wssm and just sold it a few weeks ago. First and foremost, amazing round. It did everything I asked it to from coyote to deer to elk to caribou with 125 grains out to 350 yards. A lot of great hints with impressive results of not a single animal going more than 30 yards after impact. I bought every box I could 5 years ago since it started becoming scarce. I stockpiled 120 rounds. I’m glad I did because for the past 5 years I haven’t seen a box. I reached out and contacted Winchester and they said the product is discontinued. Terrible to do this to the consumer. Long story short, stick with a carriage that’s established to ensure you can enjoy it over your lifetime
Very good advise.
If a person can get enough brass you could hand load it to for many years, but if a person don’t hand load yes definitely need to stick with a relatively popular round.
25 WSSM was the best of them all. I bought a bunch of brass for it and don’t even have a rifle. My buddy wild-catted it up to 7mm, shooting 195gr EOL for PRS so ROs are left with no doubt when he connects. Brutal on steel.
This is why I don't trust brand new cartridges. They need to be on the market for at least 20 years and have good cartridge support for me to consider buying one. It's hard enough chasing all my old cartridges that have limited cartridge support. I don't need a brand new one that has non
The WSSM’s are definitely a handloaders deal. Someone had to be making brass as a solid amount of 358WSSM’s were made in Indiana.
I wanna see a cartridge talk on the lazeroni family of cartridges!
I 2nd this !!!
What rounds come from that family?
Warbird is the one we want
The cartridge was a market-failure, but not a performance failure. It was an excellent idea with a mediocre execution, and horrible marketing. *The central point of the marketing **_SHOULD_** have been that it would fit into an AR-15.* People who put it into bolt-guns... go for it, but it's pointless, because it's all of the hassle with a novel-cartridge with none of the ballistic improvement over the original - or at least no practical or functional difference.
_It should have been all about the AR-15._ But at the time, the AR-15 - while popular - wasn't nearly as popular as it is now. And now we have the 6 ARC which does what the 243 wssm _SHOULD_ have been.
Decent cartridge, terrible marketing, even worse support, and came out at the wrong time.
The 25 WSSM and 30 OSSM take the AR-15 into bolt gun long action performance of the 25-06 and 30-06, as long as you used the Olympic or D-Tech uppers and D-Tech mags. Winchester is really sitting on a gem series of cartridges and rifle sales potential if they revived this with .264”, .277”, and .308” variants. This case absolutely hammers with the larger bore diameters, and has a more appropriate bore ratio to propellant volume and case diameter.
A little .270 WSSM would be really sick in the AR-15 type action, but it of course requires a much larger bolt, barrel extension, and magazine solution. .270 WSSM would deliver .270 Winchester performance easily. Much less constrained when evacuating the bore, would generate insane speeds with 120-140gr.
I got the. 25 WSSM and my brother has the .243 WSSM. Sweet shooting guns.
One of the board members at the Church I go to has the .223 wssm and said he loves it. Never seen it shot though. The first time he show it to me he says “Do you wanna see something you’ve probably never seen?”
Boy was her right.
A year later after that I work at a Gun shop in my home town and just a week and a half before this Cartridge Talk was posted I actually had a customer stop in and ask if we had any
.223 wssm. All the other guys younger than me, were perplexed by the idea of it and could not imagine the idea of it.
I love my 243 wssm.
Lead Balloons are some of the best cartridge talks. We need a podcast about the encore rifles!!
The cartridge I almost built an ar in before I realized it was a horrible idea.
I have 2, one Winchester in Polymer and one in laminate wood. Mock it is you like but it’s flat, hot and incredibly accurate, and more efficient in powder performance. And reloaded, I can burn it hot! So, like… whatever you guys lol
Great episode gentlemen ! Agree 100% !
You know what's NOT a lead balloon ? The .358win !!
We are all so excited about the upcoming Cartridge Talk episode
on the venerable .358 !!!
jmp
I was working at a gunshop when they came out. The biggest issue was every WSSM we sold we'd get back because they wouldn't feed. Some people didn't want to send them back for a couple months for warranty, so we'd work on it. Never got one to feed with more than 2 in the mag. Might have been able to manage 3 if we kept working on it, but people didn't want to spend another hour or two of shop time for one more round.
243 Catbird really pushes the .243 in every weight category. Maybe it’s time for the Manufactures to try out this cartridge???
Lead balloon!
6mm-06
It's on my list for a custom rifle.
You just made my day! Been hoping for this one since I watched your first lead balloon!
The thing that really caught my attention with this cartridge a couple years ago was the fact that it could be made to fit in an AR-15 platform, specifically the 25 cal version of the cartridge. Without that it doesn't hold much for me. I did explore the possibility of rebarrelling a Howa Mini in 25 WSSM, but quickly abandoned the idea. But the idea of having 25-06 performance in a lightweight AR-15 is VERY attractive to me. I don't know of any other cartridge in that platform that can deliver the same external and terminal performance out to 400yds. The only reason I haven't picked one up is because the only maker of a 25WSSM upper sells them for a whopping $1,200, and that combined with the cost of brass made it a hard sell for me. So instead I went and bought a 6mm ARC and never looked back. Well, almost never. I confess I do still think about it from time to time...
80 grains barnes has killed many deer in California. 243 WSSM.
This conversation misses the whole point on why it was invented and why it failed. As a “few” have already mentioned this line of cartridges was created to run in an ar15. I have shot the 25 wssm extensively out of an ar, and it delivers in every way. The reason it failed is because you could only shoot light for caliber bullets, because of OAL. The current trend of heavy for caliber (high bc) bullets killed this cartridge line. There is no better deer slayer, in an ar15 than 25wssm.
The 223 wssm was an awesome cartridge imo. The thing was extremely accurate and extremely flat.
Should do talks on the other wssm cartridges
I owned a model 70 featherweight in 25 WSSM. I enjoyed it and it really did a number on whitetail, hogs, coyotes and one black bear. I only sold it because I don’t hand load. The friend I sold it to still has it and absolutely loves it.
depends on the ability and desire to reloading and life of barrel.The claimed issues with feeding reliability would be a major downside.
@ I can’t remember any feeding issues with it. However, I probably only ran 8-10 boxes of ammo through it.
Love the cartridge talks gentlemen
Can we please get a cartridge talk on 358 Winchester or possibly a lead balloon?
I have a AR 15 in 243wssm love it
That sounds like a great little combination. I've always thought about the 7mm08 in a AR platform.
Do the 6 Max
That's one that definitely needs to see the light of day. I really like that 400 legend case. Who wouldn't want a 6 arc with more case capacity that allows use of a stronger bolt?
Everybody got hung up trying to push the longest for caliber bullets out of the ar as possible, making the cases shorter and shorter to do so, and loosing the powder capacity necessary to make those super heavy bullets effective.
The argument "well those super heavy high bc bullets overtake the lighter ones at 900 yards" doesn't really matter when nobody is shooting anything besides plinking at dirt banks or gongs at 900 yards with those rounds in an ar.
In reality, most people wind up using much lighter bullets in those cartridges to get some speed and better mid range trajectory back, but they still don't have the powder capacity they could have had with a longer case that was made for those mid weight range bullets.
I hope more people find out about the 6 max and it becomes popular. It would make a great reasonable distance hunting round. Necked down to .22, it would make an awesome varmint cartridge for up to about 80 grain bullets.
I decided to learn this cartridge. I purchased three Winchester M-70 s. I handloaded for this cartridge and eventually had one fitted with a custom barrel. As a varmint rifle, I had two problems with the cartridge. Unlike my .22-250 Ackleys, I never saw the impact of a bullet from this cartridge. Recoil was too much, just like a .243 Winchester. I like .224 bullets that go zoom for varmints better than the .243 WSSM.
Never once with a Model 70, to this day, did I have a magazine feed or extraction issue. Very smooth. As a handloader, I appreciate the M-70 bolt can be disassembled to remove the firing pin, so I can find the lands when seating bullets. You can check your OAL, with live rounds that cannot go bang, because you removed the firing pin.
Having handloaded thousands of .243 WSSM rounds, the problem is the brass and the chamber. The Winchester cases have necks that are 0.024 thick. You can't begin to move the shoulder with a Rock Chucker Press. You can split a Redding size die in a Redding Ultramag press. You have to turn the necks before you can size them with a press.
243 has too much recoil ??? Maybe it's because I'm Canadian and grew up shooting 303, 30-06, 7.62x54r but Americans always seem so soft when it comes to recoil.
@@justacentrist4147
He doesn’t mean it’s uncomfortable recoil, he means it’s enough so that you can’t keep the target in the scope, which is important for coyote hunting. Hence the point that it’s easier to hold on target with the 22-250 Ackley than the 243.
@@ChitFromChinola never really had a problem holding a 243 on Target. For repeatable shots. But I guess you could be correct for a smaller frame shooter
@@justacentrist4147
It’s easier to hold a 22-250 on target than a 243. That’s what he is saying.
@@ChitFromChinolacan't explain anything to a Canadian who probably doesn't own any guns 😂
dedicated technologies in bemidji Minnesota makes an AR15 that shoots the WSSM cartridges.
Must be the one O’Neill boys showed…24” lightingbolt straight
I have a Win M70 custom built on a 26” barrel, with a 1:14 twist. For light bullets going lightning fast. I did have some feeding issues. However, the gun could shoot 2.25” groups at 500 yards. You could watch the woodchucks come apart in the scope. Heavy gun with a Holland muzzle break was awesome for watching impacts. Mostly I shoot 55 gr Nosler BT, but I’ve loaded 70 gr Sierra BlitzKings too.
I also have a regular M70 243 Win. I have very obvious increases in accuracy and performance over the original. But, it’s because of how I built it.
People do Ackley Improved cases all the time for 100-150 fps increase. So probably not correct to say it’s not enough of a performance gain. You gain accuracy too. All the bench rest guys know “short and fat is where it’s at!”
I had the 25- WSSM , Boy did it take down game like a bolt of lightning. Great round, wish brass was still here. Back to my 7mm-08 I guess so I'm happy.
25 WSSM is like 25-06 in a short little bottle with far superior ES and SDs, with a propellant column that actually gets converted and doesn’t spit powder out of the muzzle like all the -06s and -08s. 87-90gr at 3600fps from a 22” barrel, tight SDs. Actually beats the 25-06 by 200fps with 87-90gr from a shorter barrel:
87/90gr
25 WSSM 22” barrel: 3600fps with 2 powders, 3550 with many other powders
25-06 24” barrel: 3400fps with 3 powders, 3300fps with 5 powders
Both are lightning bolts on animals of all types. The 25 WSSM is an excellent 22” compact, lightweight option for a mountain rifle for mulies, bear, and elk for 300-350yd no-hold shots.
Another informative video thanks for the information you guys have.this one seems to be a bigger lead balloon than the 280 Remington or the 338 Federal in my opinion
About half the cartridges out today are a problem looking for a solution!
The 223 WSSM in particular had a bad rep as a barrel melter. I remember in an older edition of the usually mild mannered Hornady manual, the write up of that cartridge ended with an unusually blunt “This round is HARD on barrels.”
I think they’re being a little unfair with this, for the time the 243 WSSM was a pretty nice step up, and it was a really good deer cartridge, if you look at the numbers the 243 WSSM compares really well to the new 22 creedmoore and actually beats it to around the 100-150 yard mark, they should really re-release it as a cheaper competitor to the 22 creedmoore the ballistics are very good for it and they already had a semi-good platform that could be even more refined with new technologies
I remember seeing WSSM brass in shops and thinking, well that's interesting. Then instantly saying no way.
Boy that 1 ar style O’Neill ops bunch did few yrs ago was badass…I’d love to have the wssm’s to play with
I’ve got a custom throated 25 wssm seated to 2.80 pushing 134 Eldm at 2750. It’s a sweet little round
I was just thinking about such a cartridge, in light of the recent video on the .300 super WSM.
25/300wsm would be Screamin
@mryang3644
Most of the wildcatters use the 270 wsm cartridge case. Easier to neck down.
Only issue is that when loading up to max pressure it spikes quickly.
They made the 30 cosmic Or cosmo from the 25 wssm. Loaded in AR15.
My friend brings this cartridge up from time to time.
Can you guys do a cartridge talk on any of the Sherman wildcats?
The WSSM's were great, but they were killed by a lawsuit.
I had almost all but forgotten the wssm line. And honestly thr wsm and rsum line really was only saved by the wildcaters, f, and benchrest guys to where it's wild watching the 300 wsm actually start making a comeback
What a funky little cartridge
When i bought my A Bolt 25 wssm back in 2005 a box of shells was 21.99 a box. I currently have 5 boxes of Winchester 120 graniers and 5 boxes of HSM 117 grainers. They cost around $50 a box. My brother has 13 boxes of Winchester 95 grainers for his 243 wssm. And further more these calibers aren't any more ludicrous as the 6 arc, 6 creedmore, 6 dasher, and others. But haters gonna hate.
Both of these guns shoot MOA groups and we've never had any feeding issues. The only downfall to these were only Winchester and Browning were the only 2 manufacturers that built them. There was a couple of custom gun builders that built them for just a little while. If more brands chambered rifles in these calibers they'd be on the shelves in gun stores the same as the 243 win and the 2506.
I wanna hear your guys opinion on what can be done to advance our external and terminal ballistic abilities at large. Get some guys from all facets of the game on a panel to weigh in, a barrel manufacturer, a ballistician, a bullet manufacturer, a silencer manufacturer, powder manufacturer, hit up the guys from alpha munitions to talk about brass, etc. I have a feeling some serious innovation could come from a public forum of experts sharing ideas with each other.
I get 3900 FPS with my 223 WSSM 60 grain Barnes Measured with my Garmin, but the Remington 700 Factory Rifle is in 1/10 Twist. I feel it would be Awesome in 1/7 twist . Shoots 1/2 in 100 Yards.
Typo mine is a Winchester model 70 1/10 Twist
During the lock down when all the TP disappeared i went everywhere in dfw looking for regular 243 ammo for my wifes hunting rifle. Scheels had tge 243 wssm on the shelf in various loadings. Nobody had any common stuff though. I ended up buying brass and bullets and hand loading a hunting load for the wife.
The wssm needs to come back in action
I think we need a 25 wsm
Funny how he says"We dont need another S "..... lmfao ...... and your 300Super wsm .... Theres an S there... Especially just a normal 300 brass, unmod,.... yea, Def not needed either😂
My 223 Wssm a bolt feeds great, my dad has a twin and his does also.
I know two guys that have em and they love em
They have to. they overpaid for them.
Idk what they paid for em but I know they reload for em and like em that's all I know
WSSM was almost as dumb as Remingtons electronics garbage 😂
My father had one of these and he stopped using it because the brass cracked after each shot with factory ammo
What about 7mm wsm. Why did that one die?
Bad marketing, hit the market at the wrong moment in history. Great cartridge.
Bad marketing lol
Winchester lost a copyright lawsuit and have to pay royalties on any ammo/brass they produce.
Mostly it was no availability of good quality cases.
Both the 7mm wsm and 300 wsm was being used in long range shooting. Then they could not get hit cades.
Alpha just started offering 300 wsm cases.
You got close to the reason the WSSM cartridges existed. Short light weight rifles that handle so much better than a longer action and longer barrel to get similar performance. My 243 WSSM gets 3250 fps with a 100 gr bullet in a 22 inch barrel but only with RL 26. Luckily I have plenty of this powder.
If I remember correctly the early rifles didn’t feed well. Browning supposedly fixed the problem. The 25 WSSM was the star. It’s a shame that cartridge didn’t survive either.
Here in Western SD, you can buy .243 Win at the convenience store. I've even seen it in country bars. Why make it hard?
I have a 25 wssm. Its a great rifle. No feeding issues and very accurate. What drove the wssm to being obsolete where two things. Supposedly the 223 and the 243 where good for throat erosion and as for the 25 it seems not to be an issue. Another issue with the wssm was a lawsuit between Jamison v. Olin Corporation-Winchester Division. I think that the wssm could be better now with modern bullets. The 6.8 Western is a close representative to what the wssm could be.
6.5 PRC is closer to being a 6.5 RCM than 6.5 SAUM, right?
7 wsm please
I have one, model 70, it is a wonderful round...
We have a 223wssm in a abolt. It is actually a really good little rifle. Haven’t had a lot of feeding issues and very accurate. Also very very fast as stated in the show 55gr vmax above 4K if you load it. I would say it’s a good unit.
.243 WSSM was one that I saw when I was just really starting to become interested in firearms and hunting. I looked into it and I was like...this offers next to nothing more over a standard action cartidge. If I wanted a short magnum, I'd go for the .300 WSM. Wonder what it would take to build a .300 WSM in a AR10? Now that would be a nice rifle.
My first thought was it looks like a bad science experiment. Unfortunately, some people drank the coolaide.
love the .243WSSM, those Winchester super short actions rifles were awesome
They're useless trash
If you make a chambering for a rifle sell the rifles for good money and then less than a decade later stop producing said cartridge you owe everyone who bought these rifles a new rifle with available ammo. Just my opinion.
Buying guns is like the stock market buddy. If you go with something tried and true, you’re going to keep or improve your value. If you go with something untried, brand new, and what the market ultimately doesn’t want, you’re going to lose money. But I appreciate you guys trying out those crazy calibers. Sure, most of them are terrible and doomed to die, but once in a while, you get a gem.
Looking forward to the 7.5 Swiss
One of the cartridges of all time.
Another perfect solution to a problem that didn't exist...or at least a solution to a problems that had been solved long ago.
Every time a lead balloon comes up, I grab my reloading manual to see how they compare to the popular calibers. The 223 wssm was faster but usually within 100fps of the 22-250 over most bullet weights, with the 223 wssm usually burning more powder. The 223 wssm was on par everywhere with the 220 swift. The 243 wssm barely edges out the 243 everywhere except the mid weight bullets (75-80gr.) Where the 243 wssm was about 200fps faster. The 25 wssm was within 100fps slowly than the 25-06 everywhere, but looked to average 10-12% less powder. I'm thinking 25 caliber and 6.5mm should have been where the wssm family needed to lived, but 223 and 243 were probably chosen because of market popularity at the time.
Before Indiana changed its regulations to allow standard cartridges, one gun maker offered a 358 WSSM to comply with the cartridge criteria at the time. I was excited until I learned he wanted over $2k for a rifle and more for the cartridges, dies, etc.
My cousin has one very accurate rifle. Just can’t get no ammo for it so he hasn’t hunted with it in years
A very special Merry Christmas to Mark.
One of the cool variants in the early days was a 358 to meet Indianas original 1.625” coal limit later in the years Indiana lifted the limit to 1.8” where it stands today for public land where the 308 and wsm based cartridges started to shine. Lot of old tc encores floating around in those wildcat calibers
Beats the heck out of a 357 mag or 44
Got a question. What is normal barrel life for these and what’s the twist rate of off the shelf rifles
I've never seen Jim so disgusted to see a round.
Fell harder than the 25 WSSM?
Once had a 25wssm stealth 2 and I miss that thing...
The died because of the timing of the release.
All of the Wssm cartridges scream to be in an AR-15.
Mine are on Olympic arms UMAR lowers, my friends and on standard lowers. On an AR there’s no feeding issues.
The case is the same length as the Grendel, ARC, and the BR.
The capacity is the same as the creedmoor or extremely close.
So you have a creedmoor velocity (or more since the Wssm is a half inch shorter) in an ARC action length.
The only thing you have to do to put a WSSM in an AR-15 is change the barrel, bolt, and magazine just like an ARC.
So a good project for you to do is to take a 300 OSSM (30-25 WSSM) and do the same thing as you did for the 300 super WSM.
And then you should be able to run it in a regular WSM action.
You need a different upper receiver too due to the diameter of the bolt and barrel extension. Olympic Arms did it, then D-Tech. It kinda begs for a bit longer action if you want to shoot the longer bullets in 25 cal, but with 75-90gr, it beats the 25-06. Awesome little cartridge. I would really like to see a 270 WSSM AR-15 hunter. That would be an absolute pole-ax. I have 6mm, 6.5 Grendel, 25 WSSM all lined up next to each other with a 131gr ACE loaded in the 25 WSSM and it looks totally normal, like a natural line-up of cartridges. The WSSMs really burn the propellant better than most other cartridges, so SDs are extremely tight.
A freind had one in 30 wssm, cosmo or cosmic ?, it was a great AR platform and really performed. Was made right down the road at Rainer arms.
@eddieb4227 Olympic Arms 300 OSSM. Advertised as 30-06 performance from an AR-15.
The barrel extension that I have slides right into the Gibbz upper that I am going to use in the build.
I think that you are thinking about the 30 Remington AR. I have a 30 Remington AR and wish it was a OSSM. But the 30 Remington AR upper and ammunition was cheap enough when I got it
@@shawnrasmussen9994 WSSM is a larger case diameter than 30 RAR, and both require a different upper. There is hardly any chamber wall thickness left if you stick with a standard AR-15 barrel tennon and extension. Look on D-Tech’s site and you’ll see the photos of how they do it. Ejection port is enlarged significantly as well to clear that fat case.
D-Tech started out using Olympic’s special AR-15 uppers, which had enraged barrel extension tunnels, large extensions, and the large bolts. Then D-Tech went to their own billet upper that has thicker walls all around to support the barrel mate, with the larger extension.
I like the 30 RAR as well. Remington used a similar approach with an enlarged extension, enlarged tunnel in the upper, large bolt, and dog leg extractor.
The odd lead balloon like this serves a useful purpose. It helps me appreciate the more mainstream rounds. For example, I have .308s and a 7 PRC. If I were into 6s, I would pick a 6 mm ARC for semi-auto and a 6.5 PRC for longer range accuracy for all game up to and maybe including moose.
But people are going to always scratch the itch if invention, even if it has a use that no one is really asking for.
The 243 wssm handily compares to the 22 creedmoore I have been praying that Winchester re-releases this cartridge with a small amount of fine tuning I feel they would have the best competitor to the 22 creedmoore especially if they kept them low cost, it’s faster than the creedmoore out to 100-150 yards and has more energy at 100 past that it still keeps up really nicely, I would love to see the renaissance of this cartridge and the whole wssm model everyone who’s hunted with them loves the performance, the only thing I can see is people hate the feeding issue but with todays advancements and a little fine tuning this cartridge could get the love and appreciation it deserves, this cartridge is absolutely devastating on deer and is tremendous for predator hunting, the rifles were nice and slender and compact, good for mountain hunting and youth/woman, I don’t really understand the hate for them I have really considered doing a full custom build of one and if anyone has suggestions on how to do that let me know! 😁
7MM WSM is in the same boat ammo wise. I can’t find many offerings for mine anymore. Good thing I bought in bulk about 10 years ago.
So if you buy a rifle with this chamber, what other cartridge can be used in that short an action?
Lead Balloon in the Christmas stocking! 👍🏻 🎄
The Model 70s feed great not sure on the brownings. 150ft a second faster is a significant gain over the standard 243 with the factory options you brought up. Puts it right between 240 Weatherby and 243 winchester. May not have been needed but cool none the less. You guys didn't cover anything with the lawsuit against Winchester or them going under as contributing to the super shorts demise either.
A buddy had the .223 WSSM, fast, but split most the cases. Don’t recall the accuracy of it.
I work with a guy that had a 300 wsm, and he loved it. I think all of these were super high psi rounds. Why did these not take off? The gun world is fickle. Things that came out 2 years ago are outdated, not appreciated.
223 wssm vs 22 arc
The 243 WSSM was an answer in search of a question. There is no way it was going to replace the 243, which is firmly established worldwide.
I have a 243 wssm and was wondering what its possible to rechamber it to while keeping the same action
.25 WSSM is king on WSSM.
Had a friend buy me a box of .243 on the way to deer camp around 2006... He accidently bought me a box of .243 WSSM... I was very confused when I opened it to go hunting. I still have that box of ammo and no rifle for it, occasionally I will run into it while going through my ammo collection. I never throw it away cause it always makes me giggle when I open it up and look at that squatty little cartridge LOL
It would be a ballistic improvement over Ryan’s 6arc so he should try to buy one of those Browning micro that come in looking for a rail.
I was just watching a video yesterday on this cartridge right after the 300wsm video
I have one in 223 WSSM I have plenty of ammo and also reload. But I set down with it this summer and remembered how bad the feeding was. I laughed and remembered Ryan said "feeds like a duck" this rifle and cartridge i have feeds like a toddler 😂 you have to try and try again. Also it's a controlled round feed Winchester one of the last 200 produced in Connecticut. I wouldn't sell it but wow is it bad
I’m a left handed shooter and no manufactures were producing a left version, so I commissioned a Ruger #1 in 243WSSM in 2006. Your cast both depressed and encouraged me in that I’ve got hundreds of cases ready to be reloaded! Depressed in the fact that your cast probably destroyed in resale opportunity.
It is a very popular cartridge in West Virginia. At least in my area. My dad takes a deer every year with one in Win 70. Light handy accurate no feeding issues and unique.
My father still gas and uses the 223wssm . I have a 270wsm that I'm fond of myself. However I do agree completely agree that all of the wssm rounds were definitely not real gain , BUT still neat to have and yes I do enjoy them . Thank you all for bringing this cartridge up for discussion .