"You were right about me. I am a killer." But IS Ben right? Or is Sayid more than that? Join us as we go REAL deep into the moral dilemmas presented by this episode, including: - Determinism vs. free will - Killing vs. murder - Identity vs. actions We'd love to hear your opinions on these deep topics down below. I may share some of your ideas with the couch gang. If you enjoy watching these videos, consider subscribing or supporting us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/lostonthecouch
To answer your question I believe what Ben said about Sayid is right however sayid made those choices for himself. He tortured for the us government, than the Iraq government, than Sawyer for jack, then he tortured Ben. Then he kills for Ben & not to mention what he does in Season 6
I think the best answer would be what Ben once said: "Because destiny, John ... is a fickle bitch. " Ben and Sayid are the product of the context where they grew up. In a constructivist perspective, we create our reality but at the same time we are co-constructed in the process.
Man, what a great discussion about morality and what it means how to be moral as a human being. You guys nailed it. I love how a TV series starts such "deep" discussions.
The Compass is one of Damon Lindelof's favourite things from Lost, he loved it so much he would touch on a very similar concept though a bit more in depth in the HBO series Watchmen
I think this is one of the biggest Lost ending scene of the show, it's so criminaly underrated, makes you think about morality, philosohy, potentially changing one of the main show's supposed rule etc..
Assuming the past can't change and Ben survives, I wonder what was going through his head when Sayid first enters the cell in the hatch back in season 2.
The compass has a solution. There are 2 compasses which are both the same. One compass exists outside of the loop and two compasses exist within the loop. The compass existed prior to the loop. Richard initially owned the compass before Locke gave it to him. So Richard already had the compass when Locke came from the future and gave him another instance of the compass. Then there were 2 of the same compasses existing together until Richard gave one of them to Locke later. After Richard gives that compass to Locke, then only 1 compass would exists from that point on.
The picture from 1977 only contains the new recruits, including Jack, Kate, and Hurley. It does not contain Sawyer, Juliet, Miles, or Jin. It was shown to Sun to show her where and when her missing friends ended up, so that when Christian told her about Jin, it would make sense (so to speak).
Man, Hassan's theory is just like the urban legend about Paul McCartney being dead and replaced by an identical guy... who knows, it might be true in both cases 😄
OH. MY. GOD. “If there was a child right in front of you.” BAM! You. Did. Not. Lol Zola’s in love with Sayid! 😍😍😍 Thanks for the pausing and the shushing! As we near the finale, and even next season, it’s going to be important! 😉 Poor Juliet. She’s already seeing everything start to fall apart. Heartbreaking 😢 They missed the entire kitchen scene with Hurley and the Sawyer/Juliet convo. Kate just realized Sawyer & Juliet are together. Zola didn’t know Hurley was the chef. This is why I get so annoyed lol! He actually gave me a jump scare in that moment! “It’s a Sayid montage.” So…flashbacks? Audrey called it! Truth serum! Zola called the twist at the end! Love the philosophical discussion here. I wonder if they’ll discuss it more when Juliet tries to save a young Ben who she knows will eventually keep her trapped on the island for 3 years. Sayid goes about it one way, but I love the empathy that Juliet has. Out of anyone, she would want to prevent what happened to her. I’m glad Audrey brought up the abuse factor. Ben abused Juliet for 3 years and she still tries to save him. Not only that, she lived with a young Ben for 3 years and probably had plenty of chances to do just that. I hope y’all discuss the opposite actions there. Both were mistreated by Ben, but Juliet was literally stuck on the island. Sayid chose to kill all of those people for Ben, but it wasn’t necessary. Ben manipulated him though. So, lots to think about! Zola: “Ben is the king of gaslighting.” LOL
Remember Sayid back in Season 4 volunteered to kill for Ben to some extent starting when he got revenge on the man that killed Nadia. Later down the line yes Ben definitely took full advantage of Sayid’s grief. That actor who plays Sayid is so great. Check his role out as Jafar on “Once Upon A Time In Wonderland”
Just a clarification, when Christian showed the Dharma photo to Sun, Jin wasn't in that picture. Jack, Kate, and Hurley were in that picture, as new recruits. Christian was implying that Jin was with them, in that time.
27:24 - Just to add to the talk about the time traveling compass and where it came from originally - the compass keeps getting older even though it is stuck in this time loop. I think there's even a line where Locke asks Richard if he still has the compass and Richard says yes but that it is a little rusty or something like that. So, the compass continues to age and get rusty. Eventually it will break and fall apart. And THEN what will Locke and Richard pass back and forth to each other in the time loop?
There is a clip in the film In room 23 It says We are the creators of our own fate So the losties who travel back in time have created their own reason for being on 815 and crash on the island
Ben dying and someone else pretending to be him is completely insane and could never happen and is in no way applicable to anyone else. 😏 I think of the oracle from Matrix Reloaded when I express how free will relates to time travel and predestination: “you didn’t come here to make a choice. You already made it. You’re here to understand why you made it.” And we’re looking at it from our limited point of view. We have to look at it from the island’s point of view: one day several thousand years ago, a group of time traveling humans appeared out of nowhere, did some things, then vanished. Now the island needs to ensure that happens one day so it has to push certain people into doing specific things for events to play out as it happened. You don’t have to kill baby Hitler. Just kidnap him and give him to a family in Australia. It would be impossible to become chancellor of Germany if you think you’re Australian. Or make sure he has loving, nurturing parents instead of what he had. Boom, Hitler never happens.
I can't see the title "He's Our You" without thinking of the Justin Timberlake song title "She's No You", which is one of those weird songs where even though you haven't heard it in 20 years you still remember how it goes.
I asked Damon about this and he said that when you do time travel stuff, you HAVE to ask bring up the ethics of changing the past. I was a long time coming. Years in advance.
One potential wrinkle in the "killing Hitler before he became Hitler" discussion: If Hitler had been killed when he was younger, there is the possibility that the person who then became the Nazi leader might have been someone more competent and less flaky and different decisions might have been made that allowed the Nazis to prevail. It's one of those hypothetical time travel questions that opens up so many "what if's". Great discussion!
I love that Lost creates all of these conversations. Here’s another point of discussion… Do you we see Sayid and Michael differently? And the compare that also to Ben? People hate Michael so much but they give Sayid grace. I never get that. I like both characters.
It either already happened but with Kate holding Aaron or Desmond vision changed because it wasn't supposed to exactly happen that way but because desmond talked about it it changed slightly.
Excuse the pun, but it echoes Eko and Yemi so much. The whole opening scene, even though it's only about a chicken, reflects Eko killing a man for his brother to keep his brother clean. But both Yemi and Sayid's brother are too innocent (aka not a killer) to kill, which is something Eko and Sayid don't have. I sometimes wonder if this storyline was something the writers meant for Eko before his actor decided to step away from the show, including the assassination piece after the island, because it always felt wrong to me that Sayid went to work for Ben in the first place. And of course, the moral dilemma is exactly the same. Eko struggles with whether he's a priest or not - he's been technically ordained one, but Yemi says it's just a piece of paper - but then Eko goes through something and is almost born again into priesthood - a pivotal scene in his story is him putting on his brother's cross and telling Charlie, "yes, I am a priest." It's why the smoke monster, in that same episode, judges him and finds him worthy, much like it found Locke worthy. But then it later decides to kill Eko, because Eko becomes defiant and says he wasn't sorry for the killing he had done, and that he did no wrong. I basically just imagine Sayid is a stand-in for Eko in these later seasons.
Omg, WHY does everyone have such a bad perception of Kate? Why would you assume she came back for Sawyer? When did she ever want another woman's man? She is everything but that! Honestly, Kate is THE most misunderstood character!
In this episode, the Old Testament parable about the angel of vengeance, who killed a child in front of the righteous, is played up. To the question of the righteous man: "Why did you kill the sinless boy?" the angel replied: "In 30 years, this child will become a great villain and will destroy many people." I think that what an angel allowed himself to be done by a person under no circumstances, and Said is not an angel and not a righteous man ...
So the problem with the hate argument is if you are a psychopath who just kills for fun or pleasure, it's not necessarily hate. Many serial killers have killed a bunch of people and I don't believe they hated any of the victims. But how do you define hate? Can you say they just hate life? My opinion is they just have no value for life, but not hate. How I define murder is intent. Soldiers generally speaking are killing to defend their country. Murderers kill because they want to kill. To end life. Just my opinion but I love your deep discussions on these things. They really provoke thought. Loving the journey and looking forward to the rest.
You’re presenting this argument with several faulty premises. The first being there are 3 groups of people: serial killers, soldiers, and everyone else.
@@Wolfpack4eva Yea, hate isn't always relevant, even if the murderer is not a psychopath. For example, Nikki and Paulo killed Nikki's lover, not because they necessarily hated him (and I don't think they did), but because they were greedy.
Sawyer expects Sayid to take the torture from these guys and not say anything because he's hardcore..Sawyer knows he can take it because he himself took it simply for a kiss from Kate..and he's there watching in case is goes sour and he has to KO everyone and go live in the jungle forever..
The answer to what happens to Ben is one of the mysteries I was not satisfied with. Because the answer is a cop out. That aside, there was some really good acting in this episode. LOST really brought a lot of these actors A-games out. Many of them would go on to be cast in significant roles in other TV shows where many of them just wouldn't have the same impact, because I think the material just wasn't as strong as LOST and as a result, didn't really resonate with the actors, with many of them treating it as just 'another job'.
is a reality that you had no part in a reality at all?..say you go back in time 100 years, change something, then travel to the future beyond where you were originally..in a reality that you had no part in forming, would you exist?..exist in a way where you would you be able to interact with other beings?..or would you just be like a phantom?..
Most Cold Blooded...Clear Cut case of outright "Murder" by a Main Character is Locke killing Naomi. Even though killing can feel "justified" due to trauma...ex. James and Sawyer, or revenge...ex. Sawyer and Tom, Locke's killing of Naomi seemed to be the "least justifiable" based on past transgressions. Sayid's attempted killing of young Ben was immoral, but was driven by a misguided desperation to avoid the future...still wrong.
"You were right about me. I am a killer." But IS Ben right? Or is Sayid more than that? Join us as we go REAL deep into the moral dilemmas presented by this episode, including:
- Determinism vs. free will
- Killing vs. murder
- Identity vs. actions
We'd love to hear your opinions on these deep topics down below. I may share some of your ideas with the couch gang.
If you enjoy watching these videos, consider subscribing or supporting us on Patreon:
www.patreon.com/lostonthecouch
Lol I was about to say that line as a comment but you beat me to it
To answer your question I believe what Ben said about Sayid is right however sayid made those choices for himself. He tortured for the us government, than the Iraq government, than Sawyer for jack, then he tortured Ben. Then he kills for Ben & not to mention what he does in Season 6
I think the best answer would be what Ben once said:
"Because destiny, John ... is a fickle bitch. "
Ben and Sayid are the product of the context where they grew up. In a constructivist perspective, we create our reality but at the same time we are co-constructed in the process.
Sayid killing someone in cold blood.
Zola: I love his hair
😂
Happy New Year couch! Love you guys!
that beginning killed me lmao
JUST LIKE SAYID KILLED BEN AMIRITE
That opening 😂
David's exactly right when explaining closed time loops to Zola.
The kid Benjamin Linus is such an amazing casting job. Perfect! And I love assassin Sayid with the blowout.
As soon as i saw Alyssa Milano, i knew where this was going. That's the dark humour i love!
Man, what a great discussion about morality and what it means how to be moral as a human being. You guys nailed it. I love how a TV series starts such "deep" discussions.
I am Iraqi and actually Sayid's father didn't say ( I forgive you) what he said is closer to (I'm proud of you ) or (good for you)
Sawyer last ep: I got it, chill man
Sawyer 2 hours later: Oh everything is over
The Compass is one of Damon Lindelof's favourite things from Lost, he loved it so much he would touch on a very similar concept though a bit more in depth in the HBO series Watchmen
I think this is one of the biggest Lost ending scene of the show, it's so criminaly underrated, makes you think about morality, philosohy, potentially changing one of the main show's supposed rule etc..
Assuming the past can't change and Ben survives, I wonder what was going through his head when Sayid first enters the cell in the hatch back in season 2.
Best openning ever! Lol
Speaking of time travel, I would LOVE to see your reaction to SyFy's "12 Monkeys". One of the best time travel shows out there.
The compass has a solution. There are 2 compasses which are both the same. One compass exists outside of the loop and two compasses exist within the loop. The compass existed prior to the loop. Richard initially owned the compass before Locke gave it to him. So Richard already had the compass when Locke came from the future and gave him another instance of the compass. Then there were 2 of the same compasses existing together until Richard gave one of them to Locke later. After Richard gives that compass to Locke, then only 1 compass would exists from that point on.
The picture from 1977 only contains the new recruits, including Jack, Kate, and Hurley. It does not contain Sawyer, Juliet, Miles, or Jin. It was shown to Sun to show her where and when her missing friends ended up, so that when Christian told her about Jin, it would make sense (so to speak).
Man, Hassan's theory is just like the urban legend about Paul McCartney being dead and replaced by an identical guy... who knows, it might be true in both cases 😄
Also, Michael Emerson would rock playing Hitler 😄
Damn, does he pay attention?!
One of the best episode endings ever.
Haven't even watched the reaction yet, but that intro made me laugh way too much. Genius
OH. MY. GOD. “If there was a child right in front of you.” BAM!
You. Did. Not. Lol
Zola’s in love with Sayid! 😍😍😍
Thanks for the pausing and the shushing! As we near the finale, and even next season, it’s going to be important! 😉
Poor Juliet. She’s already seeing everything start to fall apart. Heartbreaking 😢
They missed the entire kitchen scene with Hurley and the Sawyer/Juliet convo. Kate just realized Sawyer & Juliet are together. Zola didn’t know Hurley was the chef. This is why I get so annoyed lol! He actually gave me a jump scare in that moment!
“It’s a Sayid montage.” So…flashbacks?
Audrey called it! Truth serum!
Zola called the twist at the end!
Love the philosophical discussion here. I wonder if they’ll discuss it more when Juliet tries to save a young Ben who she knows will eventually keep her trapped on the island for 3 years. Sayid goes about it one way, but I love the empathy that Juliet has. Out of anyone, she would want to prevent what happened to her.
I’m glad Audrey brought up the abuse factor. Ben abused Juliet for 3 years and she still tries to save him. Not only that, she lived with a young Ben for 3 years and probably had plenty of chances to do just that. I hope y’all discuss the opposite actions there. Both were mistreated by Ben, but Juliet was literally stuck on the island. Sayid chose to kill all of those people for Ben, but it wasn’t necessary. Ben manipulated him though. So, lots to think about!
Zola: “Ben is the king of gaslighting.” LOL
Lol that intro was INCREDIBLE!
Excellent discussion
Great ending for this episode. As soon as I watched it for the first time I was like no way, they can’t change the past!
Remember Sayid back in Season 4 volunteered to kill for Ben to some extent starting when he got revenge on the man that killed Nadia. Later down the line yes Ben definitely took full advantage of Sayid’s grief. That actor who plays Sayid is so great. Check his role out as Jafar on “Once Upon A Time In Wonderland”
Appreciate Hassan giving us a primer on halal and the mistranslation
Nah.
Just a clarification, when Christian showed the Dharma photo to Sun, Jin wasn't in that picture. Jack, Kate, and Hurley were in that picture, as new recruits. Christian was implying that Jin was with them, in that time.
27:24 - Just to add to the talk about the time traveling compass and where it came from originally - the compass keeps getting older even though it is stuck in this time loop. I think there's even a line where Locke asks Richard if he still has the compass and Richard says yes but that it is a little rusty or something like that. So, the compass continues to age and get rusty. Eventually it will break and fall apart. And THEN what will Locke and Richard pass back and forth to each other in the time loop?
There is a clip in the film
In room 23
It says
We are the creators of our own fate
So the losties who travel back in time have created their own reason for being on 815 and crash on the island
Ha-San, Namaste and good Locke...
Ben dying and someone else pretending to be him is completely insane and could never happen and is in no way applicable to anyone else. 😏
I think of the oracle from Matrix Reloaded when I express how free will relates to time travel and predestination: “you didn’t come here to make a choice. You already made it. You’re here to understand why you made it.” And we’re looking at it from our limited point of view. We have to look at it from the island’s point of view: one day several thousand years ago, a group of time traveling humans appeared out of nowhere, did some things, then vanished. Now the island needs to ensure that happens one day so it has to push certain people into doing specific things for events to play out as it happened.
You don’t have to kill baby Hitler. Just kidnap him and give him to a family in Australia. It would be impossible to become chancellor of Germany if you think you’re Australian. Or make sure he has loving, nurturing parents instead of what he had. Boom, Hitler never happens.
I can't see the title "He's Our You" without thinking of the Justin Timberlake song title "She's No You", which is one of those weird songs where even though you haven't heard it in 20 years you still remember how it goes.
Written by: Edward Kitsis & Adam Horowitz
Directed by: Greg Yaitanes
Great opening
Jin was not in the picture. Just new recruits. Namaste.
Love this episode and the next one 😊 Happy New Year couch gang! 🎊
Love the fact that Lost explored that Hitler question
I asked Damon about this and he said that when you do time travel stuff, you HAVE to ask bring up the ethics of changing the past. I was a long time coming. Years in advance.
One potential wrinkle in the "killing Hitler before he became Hitler" discussion: If Hitler had been killed when he was younger, there is the possibility that the person who then became the Nazi leader might have been someone more competent and less flaky and different decisions might have been made that allowed the Nazis to prevail. It's one of those hypothetical time travel questions that opens up so many "what if's". Great discussion!
@@bill.godwin-austen so true, I'm not sure if I could do it but more power to the person who could, I ain't mad at them
PLZZZ IM CRYING AT THE INTRO LMFAOO
I just had to 😂😂
anyone who goes back in time and kills some evil dictator is essentially ruining everything..they themselves would no doubt cease to exist..
To be specific, what they gave Sayid was LSD. It was a popular drug back in the 70's.
Hi to all of you o the couch! Just wanted to poke my head in to wish all of you a safe and happy New Year! Many it be a new beginning for All of Us!
Horace is so hardcore..the next level is.....he makes Sayid eat a bowl of cereal..dry..no milk..
😂😆
Hassan has the GOAT shirt.
I'll have to watch it tomorrow, but in the meantime, Happy New Year from Italy! Buon anno, guys!
I love that Lost creates all of these conversations. Here’s another point of discussion… Do you we see Sayid and Michael differently? And the compare that also to Ben? People hate Michael so much but they give Sayid grace. I never get that. I like both characters.
12:25 - it's a Rambo III reference!
Everything that happened happened.
Is what I always believe for time stuff.
happy new year!!
0:12 LOL!
Happy New Year guys!!
the intro was too good xD
So when is Desmond's vision going to come true and a helicopter takes Claire and the Aaron away? XD
It either already happened but with Kate holding Aaron or Desmond vision changed because it wasn't supposed to exactly happen that way but because desmond talked about it it changed slightly.
Another long video we luv to see it
Excuse the pun, but it echoes Eko and Yemi so much. The whole opening scene, even though it's only about a chicken, reflects Eko killing a man for his brother to keep his brother clean. But both Yemi and Sayid's brother are too innocent (aka not a killer) to kill, which is something Eko and Sayid don't have. I sometimes wonder if this storyline was something the writers meant for Eko before his actor decided to step away from the show, including the assassination piece after the island, because it always felt wrong to me that Sayid went to work for Ben in the first place.
And of course, the moral dilemma is exactly the same. Eko struggles with whether he's a priest or not - he's been technically ordained one, but Yemi says it's just a piece of paper - but then Eko goes through something and is almost born again into priesthood - a pivotal scene in his story is him putting on his brother's cross and telling Charlie, "yes, I am a priest." It's why the smoke monster, in that same episode, judges him and finds him worthy, much like it found Locke worthy. But then it later decides to kill Eko, because Eko becomes defiant and says he wasn't sorry for the killing he had done, and that he did no wrong.
I basically just imagine Sayid is a stand-in for Eko in these later seasons.
"buy me a shot of that scotch" (that costs more that Desmond could make in a month)..
"uhh..how about 2 shots of 5-Star vodka?"..
My highest rated Sayid episode at #21
lol that intro
Great fucking shirt Hassan
Omg, WHY does everyone have such a bad perception of Kate? Why would you assume she came back for Sawyer? When did she ever want another woman's man? She is everything but that! Honestly, Kate is THE most misunderstood character!
thank you! that’s what i’m sayinggg
Thank you !!
sayid killing ben always reminds me of the question of would u kill baby hitler
They literally addressed this, lol. Even in the show.
In this episode, the Old Testament parable about the angel of vengeance, who killed a child in front of the righteous, is played up. To the question of the righteous man: "Why did you kill the sinless boy?" the angel replied: "In 30 years, this child will become a great villain and will destroy many people." I think that what an angel allowed himself to be done by a person under no circumstances, and Said is not an angel and not a righteous man ...
This is, unfortunately, the beginning of the worst downward spiral of any LOST character...Sayid Jarrah 😔
Sayid deserved so much better
I feel like his downward spiral started when he started dating that blond woman.
Are we all cars on a track or are we free wheeling? Interesting question
HI AUDREY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😬
maybe they're actually on the real North Pole and the list belongs to Santa..
Happy New Year, couch and all!
So the problem with the hate argument is if you are a psychopath who just kills for fun or pleasure, it's not necessarily hate. Many serial killers have killed a bunch of people and I don't believe they hated any of the victims. But how do you define hate? Can you say they just hate life? My opinion is they just have no value for life, but not hate. How I define murder is intent. Soldiers generally speaking are killing to defend their country. Murderers kill because they want to kill. To end life. Just my opinion but I love your deep discussions on these things. They really provoke thought. Loving the journey and looking forward to the rest.
You’re presenting this argument with several faulty premises. The first being there are 3 groups of people: serial killers, soldiers, and everyone else.
@@chrissmith6097 what is faulty though?
@@Wolfpack4eva Yea, hate isn't always relevant, even if the murderer is not a psychopath. For example, Nikki and Paulo killed Nikki's lover, not because they necessarily hated him (and I don't think they did), but because they were greedy.
Sawyer expects Sayid to take the torture from these guys and not say anything because he's hardcore..Sawyer knows he can take it because he himself took it simply for a kiss from Kate..and he's there watching in case is goes sour and he has to KO everyone and go live in the jungle forever..
JF Sebastian!!
The answer to what happens to Ben is one of the mysteries I was not satisfied with. Because the answer is a cop out.
That aside, there was some really good acting in this episode. LOST really brought a lot of these actors A-games out.
Many of them would go on to be cast in significant roles in other TV shows where many of them just wouldn't have the same impact, because I think the material just wasn't as strong as LOST and as a result, didn't really resonate with the actors, with many of them treating it as just 'another job'.
is a reality that you had no part in a reality at all?..say you go back in time 100 years, change something, then travel to the future beyond where you were originally..in a reality that you had no part in forming, would you exist?..exist in a way where you would you be able to interact with other beings?..or would you just be like a phantom?..
Omfg hahahahahahha
Great reaction. Love it
Most Cold Blooded...Clear Cut case of outright "Murder" by a Main Character is Locke killing Naomi. Even though killing can feel "justified" due to trauma...ex. James and Sawyer, or revenge...ex. Sawyer and Tom, Locke's killing of Naomi seemed to be the "least justifiable" based on past transgressions. Sayid's attempted killing of young Ben was immoral, but was driven by a misguided desperation to avoid the future...still wrong.