I once had a dream in which I was a bank teller and the bank got robbed by The Joker and his gang. During the robbery, he handed me his gun and said "Hold this!" So I did, and then I followed when he walked away in case he wanted it back. When I woke up, I thought to myself, that's what makes the Joker work. He has to be so high on his own supply that you just go with it out of fear of what he might do. Jack Nicholson, Mark Hamill, and Heath Ledger all understood that.
But then the Philosophical Joker came around in Heath Ledger, most likely taking inspiration from Killing Joke, and now everyone wants Philosophical Joker, which ruined Joker. I would blame Killing Joke for ruining Joker, but it wasn't even meant to be a Canon Comic, just a One-shot. It was made Canon for the Popularity, which wrecked Joker. Now Joker is basically Anarky.
This is pretty obvious to Batman fans because it's gotten to the point where 95% of Batman's rogues gallery and supporting characters are unusable. We need to get back to letting Batman be Batman again so we can actually see some Batman stories get adapted, for once.
@flashtheshapeshafter I remember a Comment recently from someone who is arguing against seeing The Batman Sequels use Robin and Batgirl. I hope Reeves brings them in, at the very least, just to shut these Folks up.
@WalkmanWillWalkAllOverYou all DC had to do to compete with the MCU is do an Avengers ensemble movie but with a Batfamily skin it's not that hard to do since WB/DC has the rights to those characters
The Dark Knight trilogy also affected other comic book movies and sci-fi franchises by pushing for a "grounded realism" by removing supernatural elements like gods, aliens, and magic and include only scientific tech, powers, and costumes that are plausible and practical, because turning green via gamma radiation exposure and a 108 meter kaiju are somehow more plausible than extraterrestrial life and ghosts.
This is why I’m glad Gunn is in charge of DC films now. He’s never shied away from the bizarre or outrageous elements in comics. Just knowing that the upcoming Superman movie is going to have not only the Thanagarians and the Lantern Corps but also frigging Krypto? It’s a breath of fresh air. Here’s hoping that carries through to any new Batman films.
"No, Alfred, I don't use guns. I'll never use guns. But I'll put them on my motorcycle in case someone else wants to use it." -- Nolan's Batman (probably)
The Dark Knight is in par with Alan Moore's Watchmen with how they - despite being excellent works of fiction - became horrible influences on the film and comics industries.
I also see Tolkien's Lord of the Rings the same way. The books are amazing but their impact/influence on the fantasy genre really reminded him of how much Moore fucked the whole comic industry... by making good art really I swear to god, if I read one more fantasy book featuring elves that can live for thousands of years AND have pointy ears AND are better than human in most discipline AND are great with bow, I'm gonna strangle myself with Galadriel's hair
@@xeno-kun983 i feel a bit iffy about putting tolkien in the same bubble as others have mentioned mostly bc his writings were super detailed in depth that you could actually mistake it for history (to an uneducated person tho), creating new languages etc. it feels unfair to really lump him in with the other considering that he revitalized fantasy that was going into decline.
It's actually incredible how, as someone who does like those films (even if I haven't seen them in forever) my immediate thought upon seeing the title was "yeah, probably." There's a lot to like about them, they're great action thrillers, and I think they're an interesting take on the characters, but the fact that so many iterations are trying to be too much like them sucks honestly. Also Heath Ledger Joker was a great villain, but now so many Jokers are trying to be too much like him to the point where Joker's whole clown theme feels like it's taken a back seat. I like Joker because he's supposed to be both threatening and funny in a twisted sort of way, but too many newer takes hone in just on the threatening part. And to an honestly ridiculous degree too. And Batman himself can do a lot of cool super hero action stuff, but the detective part of him, and his empathy for his villains feel like they've been largely forgotten about.
"If you can't imagine your iteration of Batman counseling a troubled youth, you've failed to write Batman" Totally butchered the saying but it goes something like that.
@@bobaorc7839 Think it's more along the lines of, "If you can't imagine your Batman comforting a crying child, that's not Batman; that's The Punisher in a silly hat", accredited to Red of Overly Sarcastic Productions :3
I had a couple things that came to mind instantly. How almost every interpretation of the Joker since has tried to compete with Ledger, by being crazier without making sense (Leto), an uglier psychological profiler (Barry) or.. idk what Phoenix is lol. The lack of any fantastical or meta villains has translated to a heavy focus on the gangs and a few select villains shown in the least fantastical way possible (Joker, Harley, Penguin, Catwoman, Two-Face, Bane with minimum Venom). As if the more it's a noir, the more it must be realistic. Batman only having a relationship with Alfred, Gordon and Catwoman. Robins, Batgirls and anything else resembling a Batfamily or friends are rare (excluding Harvey Dent).
@@navonmyhand7999 "He's crazy! He just wants to watch the world burn!" Characterization that represents Nolan's fundamental misunderstanding of both mental illness and what motivates people to commit crimes.
I'll never forget how TDK led to that horrible comic run where Joker cut off his own face because the author was trying so hard to out-edgy everyone. Please someone let Grant Morrison or one of the other good Batman writers handle the screenplay of the next movie, movie writers just don't get it. Don't even get me started on the latest film turning the Riddler into the Zodiac killer when Hush exists and would have fit that role much better.
The most damning thing about all modern takes on the Joker being molded into that type is that it makes him predictable, and if the word "predictable" even remotely applies to the Joker then that's a fundamental failure.
The last segment on Batman needing his family is a huge part of why I love the Lego Batman movie. That one does a phenomenal job at the depiction of Batman as "that little boy who doesn't want to lose his family again".
Give me a Batman movie deep in the comic timeline where he has the whole family and the DCU is running in full detail in the background. These endless reboots keep telling only the most boring parts of the story and I swear I'm getting PTSD from seeing Bruce's parents get merc'd over and over and over again.
@Pentarax I get why people love The Lego Batman film, but Lego Batman worked better for me in small doses as a Supporting character in the films he spun off from. When it comes to light-hearted Batmans, I prefer Batman: The Brave and the Bold's take.
@@NoHiro-qc4dvDCU’s version will be giving us some of the bat family as it will have Damien Wayne Robin so that will mean we could also get Nightwing etc
Are you talking about JLU? Man even thinking of that scene makes me tear up. Probably my favourite Batman moment of all time. No big fights, no bad ass one liners just a man sitting on a swing with a scared little girl before she dies. Just incredible
My best friend saw The Batman before me, and when they got home, they messaged me to say that Robert Patterson's Batman would definitely have sat with Ace and comforted her, and therefore was spot-on and their new favorite live-action Batman, (nothing will supplant Kevin Conroy as the best Batman across all media.) That sold me and I was really excited to go see this version of Batman asap.
"the Dark Knight Rises" is just a rubbish title. It excludes Batman Begins and adds to the rubbish trend of adding random words to the title starting with R. Funnily, I often thought it should've been called "the Batman".
@@PauLtus_BBatman didn’t end in the movie. Bruce Wayne ended and retired but Batman came back which is why it’s called rises. The literal end of the movie is John Blake rising as the end Batman.
Man this is a bold title but I actually 100% agree with you. The Dark Night feels like it was ground 0 for all the edgy batman stories. It feels like a lot got lost from Batman when he became an edgelord in so many stories and I honestly do think a lot of it started with TDK
This what makes me appreciate brave and the bold more. It show that "batman isn't edgy stuff, ut can also have fantastic and camp stuff" while still showing that grim and noir stuff. I also love how he plays off with other heroes ether by being the striaght man, the blue clam oni to the red hot oni, or an mentor to new heroes
The issue is that it was the first good Batman movie in a while, and people decided that "dark and gritty" was why the movie was good. Similar to how everyone jumped into making grimdark Magical Girl shows after Madoka.
@@arahman56 Nolan's films may have been credited as saving the Batman film franchise after Schumacher's last movie took it way too much back into cartoonish camp for the fans' liking, but I do think it also helped influence future comic book movies a bit too much into the opposite direction as well, which has its own downsides. Even if fans want Batman movies they can take seriously it shouldn't have to mean losing any of the fantastical style of the older movies in the process to do it, because everyone just wants to continue emulating Nolan's much more realistic take on the character.
@@starmaker75 The Brave and the Bold also didn't shy away from being dark when it wanted to be. The episode with the Doom Patrol ends with them all dying because Batman failed to save them despite trying his best.
My favorite Batman moment came in the Justice League Unlimited epilogue when Batman comforts Ace on the swing. I actually teared up a little. No agenda, not trying to get her to take her guard down so he can trick her. Just genuine empathy for what she’s going through If there’s one word I can use to describe Batman’s core character, it’s “empathy” Edit: omg I genuinely wrote this before I saw that you mentioned it in this video! Haha awesome
Yet that same character. In that same universe managed to disillusion and fracture his own proteges. Both Robin's actually hate Bruce by their adult years. And that same character had an affair with his " sons" ex girlfriend and partners daughter.......who he also just flung aside. By the timeline of Batman Beyond. Bruce Wayne is an old cynical, rotten man who has alienated every one. Batman sits with ACE because the DCAU had a Batman hard on. And turned what used to be a intriguing hero into a God like Deux ex Machina.
@auntiewewe972 In the Case of Tim, we should take that cae with a grain of salt, especially since the Joker was mind controlling him through a microchip (making it very dubious to me that Tim genuinely hated Bruce).
@eamonndeane587 true. But also we find out Bruce totally ghosted Tim after the ordeal. And never even once talked with him afterwards. So my point was simply where did this " compassionate " caring Bruce come from? If he was do empathetic towards Ace , why not towards the ones he was closest to? The writers simply made Batman whatever they needed for the story. In my mind Batman would be the one character that saw it for what it was. And not of gotten emotionally involved
I get it. Almost nobody cares if a movie is a bad adaptation as long as it's good by itself, but when a bad adaptation starts an entire genre, then the cracks start to show. Jim Carrey's The Mask is a comedic masterpiece and one of my favorite films of all time, but it's very different from its horror source material. If The Mask had started a new era where every horror icon became comedic, it would be hated. Now, the Nolan trilogy was great, but one can see its bad influence in other superhero movies that decided to imitate the wrong parts of it.
I feel like the same thing happened in comics with the one-two-three punch of Killing Joke, Dark Knight Returns, and Watchmen. Great books all, but set off one of the worst periods in comics by people taking the wrong lessons from them.
I’m a Transformers fan, so I had to put up with the Michael Bay movies being both bad films and bad adaptations being the face of the franchise to the general public for a decade And it poisons the perception of this franchise
Another aspect of Two Face that I've never really seen explored much but would be wildly fascinating is... what does Harvey Dent, former District Attorney bring to the criminal enterprises of Two-Face, notorious mob boss? And this is another thing the Nolan-verse Batman jettisons with making the whole Dent story so focused on just the transformation and then killing him immediately. Like, imagine the Breaking Bad levels of story you can get out of seeing this former good-cop lawyer use his very specific skill set in the criminal world to produce gambits that shake things up. How Dent might be aware of what crimes will and won't get responded to with shows of force by the city. Tricking his opposition in the crime world into making too much noise, stepping on the wrong toes. And even as a GOOD DA, Harvey probably still got wind of who in power was more amenable to corruption. Seeing these good guy skills and knowledge leveraged for foul ends. PLUS! It makes for such a useful in world cautionary tale, and why plenty of people would have misgivings about Batman. Seeing how much harm Two Face can cause as a former beacon of hope makes the fear of such an unchecked power player as Batman way more reasonable. The DCU's fear of Superman turning evil was always a little wild because it's SUPERMAN! But people thinking BATMAN might fall off the deep end and go crazy? Hell, for most Gothamites it's probably more "when, not if".
Thank you. Harvey is my all-time favourite antagonist in the Batman universe, and he is been regularly underused in live action. His dynamics in TDK was one of the aspects that rubbed me the wrong way. KIling him off almost instantly just looks as a worst way to say "wasted opportunity". Also, one thing that particularly concerns me is "dark and realistic" take that was maniphested by the film, yet it completely went beyond every level of physics/human organism peuciarities when it came to the wounds of Harvey which transformed him into Two-Face. Gone with the original way of making him Two-Face (and the way it happened in the comics is very grounded in reality, unfortunately; one can find stories of people wounded like that out of jealousy, vengeance etc. in true crime from many decades), instead there are different elements affecting his face...and in the end, he 1)keeps his eye on the wounded side which is...doubtful given what happened to him; 2)haven't died of painful shock? How?
Every film Joker performance since has been trying to be Heath Ledger. And that sucks. Why can’t we portray a goofier Joker again? Also it’s really obvious to tell who watched The Dark Knight as a kid when they talk about other Batman media. Especially when they say “Why isn’t the Joker obsessed with Batman?”
You know, as much as I have misgivings about it, at least the Harley Quinn show did something different with the Joker. And NGL, it’s actually funny watching him in his get-up being a good husband and stepfather and even becoming possibly Gotham’s best mayor. It still feels like his warped humor is around even though he’s not being a villain anymore.
@BruceWayne-xq7bb oh we barely got anything of that universe it took strange and bold turns but didn't justify anything because was handled with prequel energy everything was teasing things for movies that never came like BvS featuring a broken Batman and little of Batman's world because they were keen on having it all in that trilogy that kept delayed til they just abandoned it for The Batman movie reboot and even that's being left to spoil.
Depends on the story and tone. Even then it needs to fit the theme and aesthetics The fake flower can spray flesh dissolving acid in a more gritty Batman story
My favorite Batman comic I’ve ever read is Detective Comics no 1017, where it’s all about Batman trying and failing to save a orphan from dying of hypothermia due to running away from an orphanage that Bruce donates money and technology to. Children had been mysteriously disappearing, and Bruce is visibly upset by Miguel’s (the orphan) passing. He resolves the case not as Batman, but as Bruce Wayne who turns the orphanage director in to the police, but still punches the guy for good measure. It’s the most human I’ve seen Batman in a single issue story in a long time and really gets to the core of what Batman’s mission really is and that punching the Riddler isn’t the whole of it. It’s also the issue he flat out says that Superman is his favorite superhero. It’s canon.
@@StraightEdgeKnight19 How is that dumb? 😭 He also doesn't just do that, but reflects on the trilogy, what it did, how it portrayed the whole Batman world and what it means and how all of that contributed to mischaracterization in future adaptations because of the impact it had.
@@declanista that don’t matter son, regardless of the impact the trilogy is still hailed as the best comic book movie trilogy, and TDK is STILL hailed as the best comic book movie of all time. Keep coping.
@@StraightEdgeKnight19 By what standards? As in general film, adaptation, realism, technical characteristics, audience scores, or...? Because as a comic book adaptation, it is very bad. In writing aspects the trilogy is pretty bland and doesn't hold on to the world itself, what it's trying to present and the characters. The dialogue is painful, the understanding of the world, how it works, the characters motivations, who they are. Everything gets to such a superficial level it's insane. Not even mentioning the butchering of Batman's persona and personal reflection and conflicts. There's no doubt the movie The Dark Knight is well loved along with the others in the trilogy (I think Batman Begins is fine, but I don't doubt that everyone agrees that The Dark Knight Rises was a mess), but it's not a perfect adaptation by any means, and much less a good COMIC BOOK adaptation. Still, no matter what the general perception is, the trilogy can be critiqued, analyzed and get every aspect shredded if someone wants lol. Especially if it's considered so important among adaptations, as you say, and has had such a big impact on popular culture.
When you brought up Joker's pettiness I instantly remembered how he reacted, in the Burton movie, when Batman stole his balloons. That scene and the one of him pulling out the giant revolver still gets a laugh out me 🤣
What people don't get is that part of the reason those films are so popular is that Nolan did his own thing with Batman. Other creators should follow his example by doing their own thing with Batman as opposed to just copying him.
it could have been fun if the trilogy was comprised of a film about gordon watching gotham fall (and the damages it's done to their elite where we'd be following bruce wane's turmoil boil over into leaving the country for a while) doing his damndest to slow it down by taking on falcone, a film following bruce's return to gotham from his worldly travels finding it rapidly transforming and testing his limits as he honed his senses to counter normal criminals that clearly aren't calling the shots anymore, and the third film following selina finally getting the citywide anarchy she always longed for only to fall in love with the chase due to a certain masked vigilante who can keep up with her, this all coming to a close with her decision between the city she thought she didn't care for and the kind of freedom she thought she wanted
This is why the 1966 Batman was unironically one of the best adaptations. I didn't even realize Batman was supposed to be kind or wholesome until I watched Adam West teach Robin about the importance of road safety and wealth taxes.
I haven't watch it not do I feel like watching it. Too campy and not serious for my taste Batman should feel real. Even the more comedic parts of the Teen Titans cartoon felt real compared to the Boomer Batman stuff!
Agree except one problem is I'm not always sure how sincere it was. Sometimes it feels too much like 60s Hollywood making fun of traditional heroes. Compare it to Trek's very earnest and still cool Captain Kirk for instance.
I was just thinking today about how the Joker should be written in modern stories. Tbh I feel like none of the existing Jokers, not Mark Hammil, not Keith Ledger, not even the original comic Jokers ever really capitalized on his potential fully. Joker should not be self-aware. And he always is. When he jokes or taunts Batman, it always feels like he knows he's evil snd so any idea that he's just sick and needs help kinda goes out the window. He's just fucking with Batman and everyone else and getting away with it on an insanity plea. But he never feels like he's not in control. Like he doesn't know what he's doing. If I wrote the Joker, I'd actually not make him a main villain. He should be a real wild card, either helping other villains or even Batman out but then twisting that help with a cruel irony purely for the sake of having a laugh. He should feel incomprehensible, like his sense of humour is not just dark, but alien. And he wouldn't just kill people either. He'd do weird shit too. Like, kidnapping a dozen carriages with babies in them and turning them into a racecar that he rushes into a highway. His schemes should be as hilarious as they are dangerous and sometimes even fucking stupid. He should even act against his own well-being for a laugh, be willing to be the butt of the joke. This is what true chaos would be. This is what would make Joker even scarier as a foil to Batman: how could a detective who solves crimes through reason predict an adversary who has no idea what he's doing?
I feel like your over estimating the media literacy with joker in modern day, everyone thinks hes crazy and more importantly mentally ill, people look at the dark knight and the joker movie and will say "yeah a mentality ill person would do that." When all evidence to the contrary says otherwise. They have been too subtle with the evil element, to add to your modern joker make him refuse to take a label have him refuse to be called crazy and have the system keep him alive because they need to label his actions to justify his horrible crimes. "Hes an outlier, hes sick, no one sane could be capable of all this" make the audience grapple with the fact this is just a terrible person who wants to be horrible and batman with his greatest strength and flaw, his believe that anyone can be better and deserves every chance to try.
Exactly, the best Joker is one that just shows up at the worst possible time and he's either going to commit an atrocity or do something silly and dissappear again, and Batman never knows which. He should be almost like a running gag.
The Nolanverse pronunciation of the name "falcone" is actually accurate. It's an American bastardization of the Italian pronunciation which would be Fahl-cohn-eh.
Yep. Same with Raws al Ghul being closer to the Arabic pronunciation. Every single Arabic speaker I’ve talked to in person and found online tells me that Raysh is not the Arabic pronunciation. It just got popular because of the Animated series.
@@Ren_Davis0531 Raysh sounds more like Hebrew, which is odd. Ghul is still pronounced incorrectly and would be more like "gh-au-ll" with a more gutteral "g" and a deeper "l". Honestly Ra's Al-Shaytan would've been a better name but it's understandable why they didn't use it.
To be fair to Nolan, what he made are movies, not tv shows or series. Its hard to capture all the Batmanisms in such a tight time frame. Atleast we got Matt Reeves and James Gunn cooking up PEAK DC now
Honestly, I think the Nolan trilogy was influenced by its namesake, the dark knight returns. It, too, is an overall good story that is fundamentally lacking what makes Batman himself. The main difference, and main justification, is that in Returns, Bruce has gotten far older and lost touch, almost becoming a thrill-seeker bereft of the empathy which drove him originally. He was the Batman we knew at one point, but became disconnected and brutal.
I think Ben Affleck was a solid casting choice for Batman, but unfortunately, Snyder just did not understand Batman, let alone Superheroes and what makes them interesting.
While it did, its not really the fault of the movie that people want to copy its success, that would be like saying sci-fi was ruined by star wars because hundreads of bad movies wanted to be the next star wars. Blame the people who copied not what is being copied
The movie has it's faults too. Batman as a character wasn't really interesting in the last 2 movies. Nolan's version of Batman is just not likable to me. Mainly because how quickly he retired as Batman. He doesn't grow or change much after the first movie. Batman in the comics gets growth as a character even after the origin story. The Batman showed one of them. Also Nolan's movies are too grounded to the point it's not fun anymore. Gotham is just a generic city, his villains other then the Joker are boring, the fights aren't usually good, Batman is really incompetent against regular criminals. His detective side is barely present. Even though being a detective is a major part of his character. He literally needed to breach privacy of every citizen to find one dude. Even then he only won at the end of TDK because of luck. Everyone in those ships happen to be selfless enough to risk their lives. These are great movies no doubt. But these are superhero movies that are ashamed to be superhero movies.
I think one of the best ways to point out the randomness of Joker’s Cruelty is through the death of Jason Todd. Joker beats him half to death with a crowbar just because he felt like it, when Jason’s mom points out how Batman is gonna react when he sees what Joker did, Joker replies with, “Hadn’t thought of that”, he then decides to blow up the warehouse so Batman doesn’t find out he did it. One of the most impactful Batman moments, one of the most famous deaths in DC, something always listed as the worst thing Joker has ever done… and he did it just for the Hell of it. There was no point to it like Barbara getting shot in Killing Joke, no elaborate plan like when he got Superman to kill Lois, he did it just because it was the first thing that came to mind. Or even in Btas, in the episode ‘The man who killed Batman’, Joker sentences said man to death Via a vat of acid at Batmans funeral, locking Sid in a casket with Batmans cowl, having a conveyor belt that wheels him into the vat, with Sid desperately apologising as he’s wheeled inside. After the casket sinks, Joker stand there, sighs, and then says “Well that was fun! Who’s for Chinese?” Sometimes Joker just needs to be a guy who either doesn’t have a point to his cruelty, or is doing it for the most terrifyingly pettiest of reasons
In the Rebirth comic books, Bruce Wayne doesn't just donate to charity, he goads other billionaires, even evil ones like Lex Luthor in Veronica Cale, into donating to charity. They manipulate Bruce Wayne back, but still.
A lot of the faults stem from the simple fact that Nolan has no interest in making movies about people, just ideas or philosophies. Which isn't a bad thing per say... but it certainly should be isolated from greater comic lore
I do agree with the Realistic Batman, with no fantastical villans getting really old. Batman's villlians are only rivaled by Spider-man. I'm also very tired of the Joker in general. Massively over used.
I have come to agree to with the statement “Nolan never understood who Batman is.” It’s fascinating that there really isn’t a crime noir mystery in any of Nolan’s stories. The DCAU Batman and the Brave and the Bold Barman;, two Versions who are absolutely goofier than Nolan’s realistic take, show more maturity and depth than Bale’s Batman. You’re right that the DCAU Batman is more restrained, active, and is quite charitable even when he is playing the obtuse billionaire. Brave and the Bold is yes still haunted by his parents death but he is able to be less grim and has a sense of humor. Like he isn’t going to be ok with Catwoman KILLING a man in front of him (which is what happened in dark knight rises). But an element that is less discussed is the lack of commitment Nolan’s Batman has to being a hero than two animated versions. The DCAU Batman never stopped being Batman until his body couldn’t handle the toll. No mater what the pain or anger he accumulated over the years, no matter what relationships he ruined, Bruce couldn’t never stand aside when crime was amok. Seeing him quit being Batman hits more than Bale’s Bruce Wayne wandering around the mansion. Kevin’s bruce Wayne would then, after years, of being in depressive state, find a way to fight crime by training the new Batman, Terry Guinness, showing his need to stop crime never died. The Brave and the Bold Batman never considers quitting as a positive influence. Yes there was a fanfic written by Alfred of having Bruce marry Selina and having a kid, but notice how Bruce never becomes a hermit. Bruce yes retired in this fanfic, but he passes the role of Batman to nightwing and continues to make appearances in public, like when he creates a Batman museum. To him, the world should remember the good deeds of Batman. When Alfred suggests to the real Bruce Wayne that he could marry Selina, Bruce says no, swearing to continue crime fighting. In the shockingly great finale, Batman when confronting that his show will be cancelled and make away for a darker show, refuses to succumb to network pressures to use a gun, and addresses the audience in a heartfelt manner with every character who appeared in the show “I’ll. Always be there with the hammer of justice, and thank you.” Bale’s Batman quit because he was sad. He didn’t even train the “not Robin” cop properly nor does he have a son-father relationship with “not Robin” cop to teach him how to be a vigilante. What’s critical for Batman and Robin to work is that Bruce provides dick/tim/stepshnje/cassandra/damian a safe role model to work out their issues. Simply giving an inexperienced, angry person the tools to be Batman only leads to more problems-see Jason and Azrael All the while dating a killer. Something bar bith anointed versions would have scoffed at.
Correction: Bales Batman stopped because Gotham didnt need him anymore. He suceeded, he won. If hes whatever Gotham needs him to be, He wont be whatever Gotham doesnt need him to be.
It's like when the Watchmen comic came out, and suddenly everyone wanted "gritty, realistic superpowered beings with chips on their shoulders." Look what they did to Superman!
I read a fanfic where a multiversal Batman considered all the different Jokers he'd seen and was glad that "his" Joker was the type to go to Arkham peacefully after seeing Batwoman make Batman laugh.
I still look back on this movie and realize that it’s the reason joker is always the main villain I really wish DC would get someone new black mask, Mr freeze anybody.
I've seen a comment somewhere a long time ago that said something along the lines of "if Superman represents an idealistic hope that everyone wants to believe in, then Batman represents a more grounded hope - that someone can clean up our home without being a superhuman. A person whose weakness isn't about power scaling, or a special stone - but his own psyche. He grapples with his shortcomings the way anyone else would: he makes allies, he tries to give opportunities to those who have experienced similar misfortunes as himself. He continues to believe that an old friend can fight his demons and win. He does everything he can because he wants to make sure what happens to him, what happened to his Robins, never happens to anyone else again."
I kinda agree. I dont hate nolan, he did a great job….but also he did too great of a job making batman grounded and making people forget how much of a cartoon the idea of a batman is. Maybe it’s my new midlife crisis, but I kinda miss the wacky oddball comic book stuff of the Schumacher and burton era.
No he didn't. It only seems that way because of the self caused batman drought WB caused by wanting to be too protective over the brand and thinking little of the audience thinking multiple Batman projects would trigger rage quitting.
His trilogy is a bad representation of the Batman mythos. Ras' sucked and Batman would have saved him, Joker is well acted but isn't the Joker, and Bane is a joke.
I really hated how UN-class conscious the Nolan movies were. So much of it is just propaganda for the 1%, from the characterization of the Joker, to the "Some men just want to watch the world burn", to the cop-aganda of a ‘peaceful protest' of unarmed cops marching against 'an unruly mob of poors'
I can’t wait for someone to just say: he’s a dude dressed as a bat with a teen bird-themed sidekick, who fights a clown, a walking snowman, a man who likes crosswords, a scary plant lady, etc. So, what’s the point of taking this seriously? Can’t have a comic without comedic elements, and subsequently suspending belief
TvTropes even has this as a Trope. Hated what they did with Luke Cage/Jessica Jones/Iron Fist Fucking David Tennant in a Purple Suit named Kevin instead of a Purple Skinned dude named Zebediah Kilgrave named The Purple Man
I haven’t seen a lot of Batman media. As my favorite as of right now is THE BATMAN LEGO BATMAN MOVIE Mostly due to how it’s kinda does commentary of how Bruce despite his tragic past and broody personality. He’s still a multi-billionaire that’s basically a power fantasy towards “red pill/alpha male” bros. Lego Batman basically deconstructs his character by allowing him to understand that it’s okay to be vulnerable and for people to help you. Along with the fact that he doesn’t defeat Joker by beating the shit out of him but by coming and working together. Even if the villains does goes to jail at the end THE BATMAN Is basically an arc of how Bruce becomes less of an “edgy Batman that’s broody” to more of a symbol of peace that the citizen are less afraid of and has more trust in him. Sorry for my rambling. Just wanna share my thoughts
The dark Knight trilogy is a great set of two movies, but they are very noticeably ashamed to be superhero movies, and outside of brave and the bold it seems like WB is scared to try campy Batman again let alone his larger mythos for the robins
What makes directors like James Gunn, Sam Raimi, Guillermo del Toro, Taika Waititi, Chloe Zhao, Richard Donner, Tim Burton and to a lesser extent Zack Snyder is that they understand comic books, Nolan understands films more.
I love The Dark Knight and Christian Bale is my Favourite Batman, but I won't deny that it's influence on future Batman media is a double edged sword (not helped by many writers taking the wrong lessons from it).
To me the Nolan films helped in focus on grounded Batman being the ONLY way to do Batman which to me is ridiculous. The League of Assassins are just watered down and I dare admit it but I wanted the League to be VERY similar to how the assasins are done in John Wick films. Having Ras Al Ghul control a secret society where he is the one that controls all crime and sits has the HEAD of the High Table so to speak like in the John Wick films and making them actual killers makes perfect sense. It took me watching John Wick 3 and Hallie Berry character looking like straight Talia made me see how Nolan kinda wasted the potential of my favorite Batman villain and his family the Al Ghuls.
Mega Man ironically went down this path as a video game franchise. As soon as X7 was released, I don't think it was able to truly recover from that. It peaked at Mega Man Zero 4, and now Z4 casts that shadow over the rest of the entire franchise. Every other version, be it Archie, Fully Charged, or even Secret Level, all had shades of Mega Man Zero. Sonic meanwhile, the franchise it crossed over with, should consider itself lucky to have fans that legitimately care about the world beyond Green Hill Zone, Angel Island, Central City, Empire City, and The United Federation that make up the four major locales. DC meanwhile has bottlenecked itself into Gotham City, Darkseid's Homeworld, the Green Lantern Corps, and Metropolis because of it's attempt at a cinematic universe.
One thing that I do not like about this Nolan's realistic approach to Batman. Fantastical Batman is it supposed to have a lot of high-tech gadgets embedded within his costume. While at the same time still being able to fight at full capacity against 30 well trained henchmen at the first floor of a building. And still having the ability to fight 30 more and the big bad boss man.While still showing efficiency without breaking a sweat.
the dark knight is an amazing film whose desperate to be a crime thriller about a non descript agent, using high end tech and the surveillance state to like catch a psychotic mad planner with a sort of military background ( the joker's implied backstory is cool)
People complain about race swaps yet no one ever seems to complain about Bane, Ra's, and Talia being white washed. Hell Talia, Ra's, and Damien Wayne constantly get portrayed as just looking white in media
@@MILDMONSTER1234 That is partly because comic artists often ignore the nuances of a character's racial background (like how a lot of recent X Men artists portray Sunspot with light Hispanic features, even though Roberto is supposed to be Afro Brazilian).
@@eamonndeane587 This, its definitely better now but still. For as much crap as the harley quinn show gets at least that show actually remembered to make Damien look like a mixed race kid
@MILDMONSTER1234 I'm not a fan of the Harley Quinn show (a lot of the humour doesn't vibe with me AT All), but I can begrudgingly respect the animators for recognising that nuance. X Men 97 depicting Sunspot as just looking tanned, though? That's worthy of an eye roll....
Oh boy, get ready when Harvey Dent and Commissioner Gordon got blackwashed. But I do agree, I would have preferred a Hispanic actor take the role of Bane. Surprisingly, Injustice made me love the character more since he was fun and brutal to play as.
“He’s out of line..but he’s right!” I would argue that Nolan alone isn’t at fault it’s DC itself they saw how gobsmacked successful TDK was and just wanted to capitalize on it and it hasn’t taken until RECENTLY that they realized “hmm maybe we should try to loosen up from that and let’s also stop putting Batman front and center let’s get it back to the man of tomorrow now like it should be”
the Byatmen hehehe. For me personally Batman TAS would always be definitive version. From stories and characters to art style and wonderful acting, it is the best iteration of the Dark Knight for me
I love the Gothem of the Arkham games. It gives the strongest city full of secrets built on top of an older city filled with darker secrets. The parts of old Gothen underground made of late 1800s architecture were my favorite parts.
I am the oddball when I say I much prefer Batman Begins over the other two Nolan films. There was more style and atmosphere to balance out the “realism” that was utterly lost after Begins.
To me at least, Batman the Animated Series remains the best and the quintessential Batman. What made this version of Batman effective to me is balance, the series is chock full of action, suspense, horror, drama, humour, sci-fi and fantasy, there was something for everyone, the writing and the animation balance each other, with some of the best voice acting ever put to animation. The big thing that really stands out to me, that Batman TaS does what the Dark Knight struggled with was Batman's humanity, sure he's a crime fighter and a vigilante, but Batman is still Bruce Wayne, he is still human, and the series really shines Batman's foibles. Episode "Nothing to Fear" we see Bruce's fear of shaming his parents, that he will fail to live up to hold his slain parents good name, nevertheless, Batman overcomes his fear with the icon line "I am vengeance, I am the night, I am BATMAN". Another iconic episode is "Perchance to Dream", this is my favourite episode of all time, this is one of the few times when the main character is Bruce Wayne - not Batman, the majority of the screentime is starring Bruce, this is quite rare, and I love this because it shows Bruce's deepest desires, to have his parents back, and not living the nightmare of seeing their deaths. But of course, it's a dream created by the Mad Hatter, and no matter how attractive the dream is, Bruce will not live a lie, his valour and heroic qualities are deeply ingrained, the Mad Hatter underestimated Batman's qualities, who failed because he already lives in a wonderland, thus couldn't grasp that this quality is absent in Batman. Perhaps one of the most interesting episodes is "I am the Night", this is one of the darkest episodes in Batman TaS, it takes place on the anniversary of the murder of his parents, Batman is dreary and glum, that no matter how much he fights crime, there is no end in sight, and when Commissioner Gordon is wounded in the line of duty, Batman reaches his lowest point, another person he cared for is shot by a criminal, but the episode ends with Batman thwarting the criminal when he tries to kill Gordon, Batman realises that as long as Gordon is fighting crime, he should fight crime too, and that his heroism is sorely needed. Another episode I should also mention is "Appointment in Crime Alley", the location where his parents are murdered, but despite this, Batman is still hopeful for a better world, he fights crimes to defend the remaining good left in this troubled neighbourhood, and this is what the Dark Knight is missing. Batman is more than just brooding and bleak hero, he is still optimistic, holding out for something better, Christopher Nolan's Batman leaves out too much of Batman's humanity and humility, after all, Bruce Wayne was sympathetic to Dick Grayson after his parents were murdered by Tony Zucco, then trained him into being Robin, the Dynamic Duo is another example of Batman's humanity, two heroes trying to bring justice to Gotham City.
Its a shame how TAS has spawned such a truly toxic fanbase. Where exactly has the Nolanverse Batman shown a "lack of humanity". If anything, its quite the opposite.
@@spencermalley10 Dude, nobody's attacking you if you like the Nolan movies, a lot of people did and do. How is saying TAS is a great example of how to do Batman, another take many people tend to agree with or at least understand the position of even if they disagree, make OP "toxic"?
@@gregvs.theworld451 The toxicity is when people say TAS is "the only way to do Batman" and put down other takes on the character for not alligning with it.
Re: Joker And all, ALL respect to Heath Ledger But Joker keeps getting pushed farther and farther into the darkenss beyond the character's intention. Long gone are the electric joy buzzers. Killing Joke was supposed to be an EXTREME story, not Joker's base jump starting point (regardless of possible origin revelation). But even THAT had some homicidal gags in it.
I once told my mother that Batman was referred to as the world’s greatest detective and that it was a big part of his character in the comics after showing her the Nolan movies and she looked at me like I said Batman is an alien merman who played the bagpipe. This is a person who grew up loving Adam West’s Batman, who was able to figure out all kinds of crazy shit so I think you’re right about the Nolan trilogy leading casual audiences to believe the detective element isn’t important to Batman
One of my greatest irritations regarding modern Batman is their tendency to omit Robin. For me Robin is one of the most essential aspect to the Batman's mythos, yet numerous adaptations either ignore them, kill them off or have them be a jobber with many modern Batman stories having Gordon or Alfred frequently take the spot as Batman's partner, hell even fucking Harley Quinn has made more appearances than Dick Grayson is modern stories, which is quite frustrating considering Robin was introduced long before figures like Gordon and Alfred. I really dislike the reasoning that they don't align with the dark and brooding nature of Batman even through there have been numerous dark narratives featuring them and besides we have plenty of stories featuring a dark and brooding Batman who operates solo; why not explore something a little more different? That's the thing that gets to me about Caped Crusaders show like we already have tons and tons and tons of dark and gritty batman stories where he works alone, particularly set during year one. What makes this show that much different from the others? Like there is so much untapped potential with not only with Robin but the whole Bat Family; however, due to the perception that these characters will conflict with the more brooding, solitary nature of Batman, they always rarely come to fruition and don't get me wrong; there've been many Batman stories I enjoy without the Bat Family, but personally, they are the main draw for me and It wouldn't be too much for to ask just include characters like Cassandra Cain or Tim Drake in another Batman project for Christ sake.
Pretty sure Gordon dates back to Batman’s first appearance, according to Wikipedia on the very first panel of his debut issue, so he came before Robin.
Dick being Robin is essential to show Batman go from the dark brooding loner to seeing the light, Dick becoming Nightwing is the peak of that because as Batman has said multiple times, Dick is better than him all the skill and none of the darkness. In Infinite Crisis when Earth 2 Superman tries to win over Bruce to "fix" the world because he says it has gone dark and twisted he asks one question, is his Dick Grayson worse than Earth 2s? Superman can only admit that Earth 1s Nightwing is just as great a man and as such Bruce refuses to change the universe. Barbara becoming Oracle is also a necessity, she gets to be a hero and then after a horrible trauma she finds her own way to still be a hero and Cassandra Cain as Batgirl works because she is the inverse of Batman
I think its ironic that looking back on it, out of all the scenes that stick with me in the dark knight are probably the scene in which batman realizes that the jokers gunman were hostages, showing him actually thinking things through after all the other complex bait-and-switch plans joker did, and the follow-up scene where one of the intimate's throwing the controller for the explosives' on civilians ship, showing a more optimistic and hopeful view on society that ultimatly shows how the joker was wrong about how people would kill each other brought to there most desperate moments. These two scenes, while also really good scenes, I think I like the most is because actually shows glimpeses of the dark knight being a batman story rather than a story with batman
Joker used to be a sore loser who would throw a hissy fit whenever he lost but now he always has to seem invincible, always right, always unbreakable, always winning in the end, and i hate it.
Nolan Batman is a billionaire elitist because that is what would be most "realistic" in reality. Billionaires don't care about the little guy. Nolan is a realistic Batman for better or worse lol.
The Ra's vs. "Raish" issue is easy. When it's a bunch of comics geeks, nobody cares about how words are actually pronounced as long as Denny O'Neil pronounces that way. When a film is being released worldwide and going to be seen by a not-insignificant amount of Arabic speakers, the decision to go with the proper (or at least anglicized version) is the way to go.
Again perfect sort of visual and aritistic driver for a traditional crime thriller or even a story focused on exploring the nature of an angry vile god ( in the case of Superman) it’s just no studio is green lighting this sour, somber crime thriller , nor this somber high budget exploration of biblical god
@@thetribunaloftheimaginatio5247 i get it like the issue is that this ips have grown to dominate hollywood scene in a way where getting anything that isn't them to get any sort of eyes, or marketting or whatever is nearly impossible, this is why so many film makers use them as a way of pushing an idea that is very much against what super heroes should be ... again this is genuinely the effect of franchises becoming so large and influencial .
@Blood_Video_company For me the issue is matching the creator to the material. Christopher Nolan is a great filmmaker, buuuut this is not a guy who should be directing comic book movies. Comics are emotional... Nolan thinks emotions are a psychic virus that corrupts and subverts the Swiss-watch machinery of carefully-crafted, professionally-executed masculine power fantasies.
Yeah the whole gritty realism take can be honselty goofy alot of time. It comes across as ether trying too hard or being ashamed it comic book stuff. Sure series like watchman did do this style, but still had it fantastic momments. To me, sin city, both movie and graphic novel, show how you should do gritty in comic stuff. Sure, it is brutal and grim, but still stylized, and the likes
The Dark Knight Returns solved the whole Batman's Vehicles Having Guns problem with one line. "Rubber bullets." Even in the dark future of that story where Batman uses firearms they still are designed to incapacitate rather than kill. Which makes it weird what are supposed to be more standard Batmen have live rounds.
When I rewatched TAS last year, there's an episode very early on where Bruce is working in a soup kitchen. He learns that homeless people have gone missing and goes undercover to try and find out what's happening because the police aren't interested. This was in the first season of the Animated series, and I had completely forgotten that was a thing Batman used to do.
I think Batman as a whole is honestly pretty edge lord friendly. Especially post Nolan. I was going into my freshman year when DK came out and I was honestly always annoyed how everyone was so obsessed with joker and didn’t seem to really care about Batman. By the time I left high school Superman became and still is my favorite superhero. Stories like for all seasons, secret origin, all star, last son, new 52 Action Comics, Kingdom Come, Brainiac and watching STAS really made me realize how great he was.
is it crazy to think that one of the only other jokers that stray from imitating Nolan's joker is the LEGO versions, not just the 2017 LEGO batman movie but in those straight to DVD and streaming ones as well
My biggest issue with the Nolan Batman is that he's the Ayn Randian reinterpretation I didn't need. Batman has been such a complex character for a long time, and I think a lot of people reduce him to beating up poor people or whatever and forget some of his crucial character building. Where's the Bruce Wayne who tries to get all of his rich friends to reinvest in Gotham so that people have better lives? Where's the Bruce Wayne who donates his time to a soup kitchen? Batman cares about the citizens of Gotham. I have a joke about the Nolan films that is quite relevant. Nolan Batman films have three categories of character: criminal, cop and Batman. All characters fit into this, there is no civilian perspective. This is post 911 Batman and they made him a supercop. When Lego Batman has a better Batman than you, you've got a problem.
it kind of took me years after watching that to sort of understand who Ayn Rand was. i think i heard the name loosely after coming across some scholarship with her name on it in 2010/2011 but i never read any of her book, all i heard from others was that she was kind of bad news also big non-fiction books scared me attention-span wise 😅 the beating up poor people jokes and narrative line that i saw for a long while online was weird and made me kind of feel bad for liking Batman. i sort of felt like i must've missed some kind of subtext that i wasn't really seeing due to not being as well read and stuff. Also my libraries at the time had limited Batman material to check and stuff.
@@TwinRiver100 when a character like Batman is around for this long, its really easy for him to get confused. I mean he first appeared in comics in 1939, and he has quite the legacy. He has been Flanderized to hell and back in a lot of media, and it's sad to see him reduced the way he is when he has the potential to talk about really important topics like wealth disparity, trauma, mental health, empathy, crime, law and so much more. Nolan's Batman established this detached lone wolf Batman for modern film audiences that we have yet to recover from. Ayn Rand's philosophy has gripped a lot of people and even if Nolan doesn't say he's read her work, it is very similar to the thought process. Rand's got a very libertarian view of a big strong man whose so focused on his own self interest that everyone else's happiness does not even factor in. In a similar vein, he helped write the new Superman movie which suffers from the same problem. Batman can be paranoid and brooding, but he also wants to uplift the people around him. People forget the positive aspects of Batman and kind of reduce him to cop 2 a lot of the time which is such a deep shame.
Nolan could have called back to Batman Begins in the Bane fight if they fought in that huge crowd and Batman hid among the people and did hit and run tactics, like the training scene with the ninjas in the first movie. Would have been so sick.
Which makes me sad really, is that as good as The Batman film was -- they decided to hone in on their Joker iteration to be another crazed lunatic with the decaying skin and sh*t. I now fear I'll meet the sweet embrace of death before seeing an actual Clown Prince of Crime on the big screen again.
Objection: Keaton's Batman is never actually doing charitable things either outside of a mention off-screen, and he murders people with machine guns and bombs. He's pretty much The Punisher. It's better implied that he's not necessarily much of a hero tbf and still far too disturbed. Also, two of those examples were literal murders, namely Joker, and One Face. [TLJ isn't Two Face, you'll never convince me], when that's an option, of course there are more solutions. As for Nolan, one has to remember that terrorism was all the rage in 2005, and every other TV show was a crime show...or reality TV, and there was a lot of pressure to not be Batman & Robin. And like M. Night Shyamalan, The Wachowskis, George Lucas, or Rian Johnson, characters take a backseat to themes in Nolan films. They all take the saying, "Little people talk people, average people talk events, great minds talk ideas" way too seriously. I'm baffled that you didn't consider the ending when Batman perma-retires and runs off with Anne Hathaway, which I'd argue shows that he has moved on, and has grown. And in a real-world scenario, yeah, Batman has to be a phase. And while there is a warmth in chemistry, it's Keaton's Batman that doesn't get to run away, and his relationship with Vale before fails. And until a comics continuation, there is no Robin figure at all. Look, I still prefer Burton to Nolan, and I find Reeve's to be best too, but I think you're missing a few parts. Cheers mate.
To be fair to Nolan, the reason for the deescalation between movies was Heath Ledgers death he had to completely rewrite the story he had planned and his love for Ledger had him time-skip the story and not even address all the hard work he laid down in that film.
The biggest problem I always had with TDK and TDKR was the attempt at realism. Turning Gotham into just another city makes the whole idea seem ridiculous. We're talking about a man who dresses up as a f***ing bat. It only works in the context of a surreal gothic dream-like environment, surrounded by other fantastical characters. I see the 21st century 'gritty realism' movement as largely a failure. It's only really worked in realistic dramas such as The Wire. In the fantastical only the first 3 or 4 seasons of GOT pulled it off, before it descended into Hollywood-ised nonsense. Fantasy cinema needs to rediscover its soul.
@@KoreMike13 successful is a subjective term here seeing how it was arguably done successfully with the Nolanverse. But other examples I can give is the Arkhamverse which is both fantastical but grounded. It's kept in a more realistic in the sense that Gotham looks like an actual city that's more so in the process of being modernized. Characters like Robin aren't teenagers(Tim is at least 19 to 22) who dress up in bright colors but are designed like MMA fighters wearing more dark clothing. I could go on and on. Gotham 1919 which is a universe set 1919 to 1939 that shows Batman in a more believable era where he could exist at his prime. Characters like Ivy and Clayface are shown to be normal humans and much more down to earth crimes, Ivy is a black widow and Clayface is a serial killer who's crimes are meant to draw out Batman for his revenge. But characters like Mister Freeze and Man-Bat exist with their powers but it's left a mystery of how they got them. Arrow exists in a more grounded world but still has metahumans, Immortal madmen and ect. But it's still written in a much more believable way that highlights Oliver is just a human going up against things that exist in the world but are still fantastical.
And also how the way Snyder borrowed Nolan’s military weaponry angle, and then proceeded to amp up the brutality was part of the deconstruction. Snyder even said how Nolan’s Batman was just “cool”. I think he was trying to take what Nolan presented uncritically as cool, and present it as violent and fucked up on purpose. People who think Snyder’s deconstruction approach was all wrong won’t get argument from me, but they can’t argue it wasn’t the intention!
I think the Arkham series balances well the more fantastical elements of Batman with a grounded perspective. The Batman cannot ever be a realistic hero, because if so it would look ridiculous.
As someone who adores Batman and his rogues I missed when Batman villains were just allowed to be Like I want Batman to go up his villains when they have petty human motivations His villains are the best when their motivation are understandable even if we disagree with them Like can’t the Mad Hatter be a creepy stalker and criminal not what the more “grounded” version makes him Hell Joker was allowed to be fun without a grand scheme
Meanwhile here I am never having seen the Nolan trilogy ever lmao. To me, the Arkham Games are what got me into Batman, and from there it's Grep Capullo and Scott Snyders stories (court of owls, death of the family, zero year) as well as comics like Dark Knight Returns and Killing Joke that really made me fall in love with the character and the universe of gotham as a setting sort of separate from the DC universe as a whole (even tho some of the best batman stories like DK Returns and Hush involve other JL members).
35mm was the standard until like the mid 2000s, so not that much more retro than the schumacher ones, in that specific sense (though they do look dirtier at every level).
I remember the "batman" world before Nolan. Sure, there was the batman show (which in Europe didn't get so much attention) but adults always kept ignoring the character, most people still considered it as a character for kids. After the batman and robin fiasco very few people took the character seriously. Adults were condescendent towards Batman. Then Nolan brought his first batman and everything changed. I remember like yesterday, how people stopped showing those condescendent smiles when talking about it, now I could actually have a conversation with adult people about Batman. Serious conversations. It's so CRAZY. I think Nolan's trilogy SAVED the character in many ways. You say that it hurt the character because it became a shadow that limited the scope of the related art; that's bullshit. Batman is supposed to be dark, serious, brutal. It didn't limited the character, it FOCUSED the character. The way it should. And great material has come to Batman since then. The arkham games were great, Ben Affleck was a great batman in the wrong movies, but then we got Joker, a very decent movie, the Batman (with the twilight guy), which was also very good. Even the injustice games were connected to the spirit of the nolan's trilogy and those games were great (other than some problems with the monetization in the second game). And we even got great comedic material inspired by the tone of Nolan. The lego batman movie for example, was great. Or the teen titans go to the movies (the show was meh but that movie was very good). So I see this video as an interesting take, but a wrong take nonetheless.
Is batman supposed to be serious dark brutal? Don't get me wrong. That is indeed a big part of him. But it's hardly the only one and I even hesitate to say it's the biggest. He IS part of the dynamic duo. He IS a Superfriend. He IS a member of the justice league that battles fantasy monsters and cartoony villains the Nolan movies are grounded. Scarecrow is just a dude with a bag and his gas. Not a very theatrical horror freak show. Ra's is just a dude with a secret organization. Not a nigh immortal leader of basically global illuminati that deals with magic and shit Joker and 2 face are fine actually lol. Bane had like no venom? That's a core part of his. Talia shares problems with Ra's but at least she isn't the demon himself And now The Batman is following suit. And they took all the sauce away from Riddler. The smarmy ass that likes to dress up full of question marks The Arkham games are better adaptations on what Batman "should" look like. There is seriousness in there yes. But there is also the fun comic book tint rather than trying to go for "realistic" and taking away the iconic elements of characters they are adapting At the core of it all we are looking at a dude in a bat suit. There is already an inherent silliness to that concept and adaptations need to embrace that. After Nolan, a lot of it seems to shy away from it. Robin has been with Batman for longer than the Joker has existed! How is it we only got like 2 live action movies of him! You are right though that Nolan did revitalize batman in the eyes of the mainstream... but did it revitalize BATMAN. THE character people love? or something that looks like him?
While I did enjoy The Batman it really bothers me that the Riddler is the villain, just because the motivations and actions never really feel like the Riddler. It really should've been Anarchy instead.
Ehh. Anarky is a very obscure Batman villain. It makes a lot more sense to take a very well known villain with an interesting gimmick and just mix in some elements of other characters to fit the story they want to tell
I see it more as an origin story. The Riddler only begun hating Batman after realizing his delusional view on his idol doesn't agree with him and loathed him. After The Batman, he will most likely became the Riddler we usually knows
This is also part of it. The Arkham scene between Riddler and Batman is SO important because it’s the stage for their classic relationship moving forward. Eddie realizing him and Bats are NOT friends, but also, Eddie realizing he essentially outsmarted Batman since he didn’t about the plan to flood Gotham. This is a big moment because this is where we first see him with that really annoying and pompous attitude towards Bats.
The Snyder Batman actually just explicitly kills, but I will say that the whole "Batman doesn't kill but has these big guns" thing is a big problem I have with The Dark Knight Returns. That's what inspired a lot of Batman Begins et al, and he uses a tank that shoots huge ass "rubber bullets", but even normal sized rubber bullets can kill; they'll especially kill when they're fist sized slugs and knocking people out in the fucking mud.
I think we got a small tease of Batman in James Gunn's DCU, i think from creature commandos? I haven't watched it but i recall hearing about it. And he apparently has the white comic accurate eyes, which is exciting.
My biggest issue is that the films brought on this realism tide to Batman media, and now people ignore what the villains are supposed to represent and only talk about how unrealistic stuff is. The metaphor's are being ignored in favour of trying to outsmart the source material.
I feel the grounded aspect of the Nolan movies only really worked well in those three movies. Comic Batman should feel like a character who can also share a universe with super-powered heroes, like Superman without either feeling out of place or forced.
Studios took the wrong lessons from Nolan's trilogy Instead of thinking, "Hey, look when a good writer and director have the creative freedom to faithfully adapt the character and show the world why said character is great, its successful and people love it." They think "Wow a dark realistic movie, this sells lets turn all of characters into that"
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
We are constantly robbed of an incredible Mr Freeze story because writers are scared to tap into the more fantastical aspects of Batman.
They're just afraid nobody will ever be able to take a live-action Freeze seriously anymore after Arnold Freeze.
The Gotham Mr. Freeze was pretty good.
@@nicksorenson940 Arnold Freeze was my favourite. I was 5 years old. It's okay to make silly batman movies for 5 year olds.
Or scarecrow
Same with a horror movie inspired Man-Bat story.
I once had a dream in which I was a bank teller and the bank got robbed by The Joker and his gang. During the robbery, he handed me his gun and said "Hold this!" So I did, and then I followed when he walked away in case he wanted it back. When I woke up, I thought to myself, that's what makes the Joker work. He has to be so high on his own supply that you just go with it out of fear of what he might do. Jack Nicholson, Mark Hamill, and Heath Ledger all understood that.
That’s honestly an incredible dream, thank you for sharing
I legit read “Hold this” in Hamill’s voice.
But then the Philosophical Joker came around in Heath Ledger, most likely taking inspiration from Killing Joke, and now everyone wants Philosophical Joker, which ruined Joker.
I would blame Killing Joke for ruining Joker, but it wasn't even meant to be a Canon Comic, just a One-shot. It was made Canon for the Popularity, which wrecked Joker.
Now Joker is basically Anarky.
Good dream 👍. At least you were safe
that sounds like a mark hamill joker thing lol, I could totally picture that, I can practically hear him
This is pretty obvious to Batman fans because it's gotten to the point where 95% of Batman's rogues gallery and supporting characters are unusable.
We need to get back to letting Batman be Batman again so we can actually see some Batman stories get adapted, for once.
And robins, it's insane how little Robin stuff we get nowadays
@flashtheshapeshafter I remember a Comment recently from someone who is arguing against seeing The Batman Sequels use Robin and Batgirl. I hope Reeves brings them in, at the very least, just to shut these Folks up.
The fact that we have gotten barely any batfamily media in live action is a testament to that
What the world isn't ready for: Live Action Kite Man
What the world REALLY needs: Live Action Kite Man
@WalkmanWillWalkAllOverYou all DC had to do to compete with the MCU is do an Avengers ensemble movie but with a Batfamily skin it's not that hard to do since WB/DC has the rights to those characters
The Joker is such a edge lord in the comics now, he isn’t even funny anymore
they should change his name to The Stand Up Comedian then, amiright? ayyyy
He was fine in the Arkham games
@@paladinheadquarters7776yea that’s why they said in the comics lol
Those are games. That was a decade ago. Pay attention.@@paladinheadquarters7776
@hashaskinner And overused.
Both him and Harley Quinn.
The Dark Knight trilogy also affected other comic book movies and sci-fi franchises by pushing for a "grounded realism" by removing supernatural elements like gods, aliens, and magic and include only scientific tech, powers, and costumes that are plausible and practical, because turning green via gamma radiation exposure and a 108 meter kaiju are somehow more plausible than extraterrestrial life and ghosts.
This is why I’m glad Gunn is in charge of DC films now. He’s never shied away from the bizarre or outrageous elements in comics. Just knowing that the upcoming Superman movie is going to have not only the Thanagarians and the Lantern Corps but also frigging Krypto? It’s a breath of fresh air.
Here’s hoping that carries through to any new Batman films.
@@animeotaku307Nature is healing
It's the worst part of comic book movies now imo! Where's the whimsy where's the fantasy where's the fun in any of it!!
@@animeotaku307And yet
Everyone on the internet won’t stop crying about how James Gunn’s Superman is going to fail even before the film even comes out
One good thing you can about Deadpool is that it showed you can have Wolverines comic costume and have it look great
"No, Alfred, I don't use guns. I'll never use guns. But I'll put them on my motorcycle in case someone else wants to use it." -- Nolan's Batman (probably)
He's fine using them to say, destroy an obstacle. He just doesn't kill people.
The Dark Knight is in par with Alan Moore's Watchmen with how they - despite being excellent works of fiction - became horrible influences on the film and comics industries.
This is the best take I think; a thing can be good in it's own right while it's greater impact is bad
Because people miss the point on what made them such great stories.
I also see Tolkien's Lord of the Rings the same way. The books are amazing but their impact/influence on the fantasy genre really reminded him of how much Moore fucked the whole comic industry... by making good art really
I swear to god, if I read one more fantasy book featuring elves that can live for thousands of years AND have pointy ears
AND are better than human in most discipline AND are great with bow, I'm gonna strangle myself with Galadriel's hair
along with Miller's Dark Knight Returns and Moore's Killing Joke, yes. three incredible stories that had a disastrous impact on comics.
@@xeno-kun983 i feel a bit iffy about putting tolkien in the same bubble as others have mentioned mostly bc his writings were super detailed in depth that you could actually mistake it for history (to an uneducated person tho), creating new languages etc. it feels unfair to really lump him in with the other considering that he revitalized fantasy that was going into decline.
It's actually incredible how, as someone who does like those films (even if I haven't seen them in forever) my immediate thought upon seeing the title was "yeah, probably." There's a lot to like about them, they're great action thrillers, and I think they're an interesting take on the characters, but the fact that so many iterations are trying to be too much like them sucks honestly. Also Heath Ledger Joker was a great villain, but now so many Jokers are trying to be too much like him to the point where Joker's whole clown theme feels like it's taken a back seat. I like Joker because he's supposed to be both threatening and funny in a twisted sort of way, but too many newer takes hone in just on the threatening part. And to an honestly ridiculous degree too. And Batman himself can do a lot of cool super hero action stuff, but the detective part of him, and his empathy for his villains feel like they've been largely forgotten about.
"If you can't imagine your iteration of Batman counseling a troubled youth, you've failed to write Batman"
Totally butchered the saying but it goes something like that.
@@bobaorc7839 Think it's more along the lines of, "If you can't imagine your Batman comforting a crying child, that's not Batman; that's The Punisher in a silly hat", accredited to Red of Overly Sarcastic Productions :3
I had a couple things that came to mind instantly.
How almost every interpretation of the Joker since has tried to compete with Ledger, by being crazier without making sense (Leto), an uglier psychological profiler (Barry) or.. idk what Phoenix is lol.
The lack of any fantastical or meta villains has translated to a heavy focus on the gangs and a few select villains shown in the least fantastical way possible (Joker, Harley, Penguin, Catwoman, Two-Face, Bane with minimum Venom). As if the more it's a noir, the more it must be realistic.
Batman only having a relationship with Alfred, Gordon and Catwoman. Robins, Batgirls and anything else resembling a Batfamily or friends are rare (excluding Harvey Dent).
@@navonmyhand7999
"He's crazy! He just wants to watch the world burn!" Characterization that represents Nolan's fundamental misunderstanding of both mental illness and what motivates people to commit crimes.
I'll never forget how TDK led to that horrible comic run where Joker cut off his own face because the author was trying so hard to out-edgy everyone. Please someone let Grant Morrison or one of the other good Batman writers handle the screenplay of the next movie, movie writers just don't get it. Don't even get me started on the latest film turning the Riddler into the Zodiac killer when Hush exists and would have fit that role much better.
The most damning thing about all modern takes on the Joker being molded into that type is that it makes him predictable, and if the word "predictable" even remotely applies to the Joker then that's a fundamental failure.
The last segment on Batman needing his family is a huge part of why I love the Lego Batman movie. That one does a phenomenal job at the depiction of Batman as "that little boy who doesn't want to lose his family again".
Give me a Batman movie deep in the comic timeline where he has the whole family and the DCU is running in full detail in the background. These endless reboots keep telling only the most boring parts of the story and I swear I'm getting PTSD from seeing Bruce's parents get merc'd over and over and over again.
@Pentarax I get why people love The Lego Batman film, but Lego Batman worked better for me in small doses as a Supporting character in the films he spun off from.
When it comes to light-hearted Batmans, I prefer Batman: The Brave and the Bold's take.
@@NoHiro-qc4dvDCU’s version will be giving us some of the bat family as it will have Damien Wayne Robin so that will mean we could also get Nightwing etc
I love Wayne Family webcomic because of how important Bat Family is for him.
Lego Batman is just a stoner movie.
If you can't see the Batman you're writing comforting a dying child, that isn't Batman. That's the Punisher in a funny hat.
Do you mean "if you can't see..."?
Not a valid criticism of Dark Knight Batman tho.
Are you talking about JLU? Man even thinking of that scene makes me tear up. Probably my favourite Batman moment of all time. No big fights, no bad ass one liners just a man sitting on a swing with a scared little girl before she dies. Just incredible
@aneasteregg8171 i mean...
My best friend saw The Batman before me, and when they got home, they messaged me to say that Robert Patterson's Batman would definitely have sat with Ace and comforted her, and therefore was spot-on and their new favorite live-action Batman, (nothing will supplant Kevin Conroy as the best Batman across all media.) That sold me and I was really excited to go see this version of Batman asap.
The biggest flaw in Nolan's trilogy is that he named the first one "Batman Begins" and didn't name the last one "Batman Ends"
"the Dark Knight Rises" is just a rubbish title. It excludes Batman Begins and adds to the rubbish trend of adding random words to the title starting with R.
Funnily, I often thought it should've been called "the Batman".
@@PauLtus_BBatman didn’t end in the movie. Bruce Wayne ended and retired but Batman came back which is why it’s called rises. The literal end of the movie is John Blake rising as the end Batman.
and the 2nd one "Batman Continues"
Couldn't. WB needs to milk that cash cow dry
@@nondescriptcat5620 3rd one "Batman Again". The 4th "Batman's Still There".
DC and learning the wrong lesson, name a more iconic duo.
DC and box office bombs
@@MulletSuperman DC is in a polyamorous relationship with learning the wrong lesson and box office bombs
DC and having zero faith in other properties that aren’t named Batman or Superman
I'd say Batman and Robin but DC disagrees 😂
DC and comic book movies being ashamed to be comic book movies.
Terrifier made money It will get worse with Joker
At least despite the bloodshed, Art The Clown has some moments of pure camp and dark humour
There's a reason why David Howard Thornton has expressed interest in playing DCU Joker.
Man this is a bold title but I actually 100% agree with you. The Dark Night feels like it was ground 0 for all the edgy batman stories. It feels like a lot got lost from Batman when he became an edgelord in so many stories and I honestly do think a lot of it started with TDK
This what makes me appreciate brave and the bold more. It show that "batman isn't edgy stuff, ut can also have fantastic and camp stuff" while still showing that grim and noir stuff. I also love how he plays off with other heroes ether by being the striaght man, the blue clam oni to the red hot oni, or an mentor to new heroes
The issue is that it was the first good Batman movie in a while, and people decided that "dark and gritty" was why the movie was good.
Similar to how everyone jumped into making grimdark Magical Girl shows after Madoka.
@@arahman56 Nolan's films may have been credited as saving the Batman film franchise after Schumacher's last movie took it way too much back into cartoonish camp for the fans' liking, but I do think it also helped influence future comic book movies a bit too much into the opposite direction as well, which has its own downsides.
Even if fans want Batman movies they can take seriously it shouldn't have to mean losing any of the fantastical style of the older movies in the process to do it, because everyone just wants to continue emulating Nolan's much more realistic take on the character.
@@starmaker75 The Brave and the Bold also didn't shy away from being dark when it wanted to be. The episode with the Doom Patrol ends with them all dying because Batman failed to save them despite trying his best.
@@matthewgagnon9426 really underrated show that proves there's plenty of space for fun Batman too and yes you're right, it had pathos too!
My favorite Batman moment came in the Justice League Unlimited epilogue when Batman comforts Ace on the swing. I actually teared up a little. No agenda, not trying to get her to take her guard down so he can trick her. Just genuine empathy for what she’s going through
If there’s one word I can use to describe Batman’s core character, it’s “empathy”
Edit: omg I genuinely wrote this before I saw that you mentioned it in this video! Haha awesome
Yet that same character. In that same universe managed to disillusion and fracture his own proteges. Both Robin's actually hate Bruce by their adult years. And that same character had an affair with his " sons" ex girlfriend and partners daughter.......who he also just flung aside. By the timeline of Batman Beyond. Bruce Wayne is an old cynical, rotten man who has alienated every one. Batman sits with ACE because the DCAU had a Batman hard on. And turned what used to be a intriguing hero into a God like Deux ex Machina.
@@auntiewewe972 lol ummm ok
@auntiewewe972 In the Case of Tim, we should take that cae with a grain of salt, especially since the Joker was mind controlling him through a microchip (making it very dubious to me that Tim genuinely hated Bruce).
@eamonndeane587 true. But also we find out Bruce totally ghosted Tim after the ordeal. And never even once talked with him afterwards. So my point was simply where did this
" compassionate " caring Bruce come from? If he was do empathetic towards Ace , why not towards the ones he was closest to? The writers simply made Batman whatever they needed for the story. In my mind Batman would be the one character that saw it for what it was. And not of gotten emotionally involved
@auntiewewe972 Perhaps because Bruce was ashamed of failing to prevent Tim from being tortured and mentally ravaged by the Joker?
I get it. Almost nobody cares if a movie is a bad adaptation as long as it's good by itself, but when a bad adaptation starts an entire genre, then the cracks start to show.
Jim Carrey's The Mask is a comedic masterpiece and one of my favorite films of all time, but it's very different from its horror source material. If The Mask had started a new era where every horror icon became comedic, it would be hated.
Now, the Nolan trilogy was great, but one can see its bad influence in other superhero movies that decided to imitate the wrong parts of it.
I feel like the same thing happened in comics with the one-two-three punch of Killing Joke, Dark Knight Returns, and Watchmen. Great books all, but set off one of the worst periods in comics by people taking the wrong lessons from them.
@HobGungan Indeed. Some artists try to force certain characters into styles not made for them.
@@HobGungansame rhing with dark knigt watchmen 300 sin city
My thoughts exactly. Grew up on the TDK Trilogy and still love them, but Man did the Studios learn the wrong lessons from their success.
I’m a Transformers fan, so I had to put up with the Michael Bay movies being both bad films and bad adaptations being the face of the franchise to the general public for a decade
And it poisons the perception of this franchise
Another aspect of Two Face that I've never really seen explored much but would be wildly fascinating is... what does Harvey Dent, former District Attorney bring to the criminal enterprises of Two-Face, notorious mob boss? And this is another thing the Nolan-verse Batman jettisons with making the whole Dent story so focused on just the transformation and then killing him immediately.
Like, imagine the Breaking Bad levels of story you can get out of seeing this former good-cop lawyer use his very specific skill set in the criminal world to produce gambits that shake things up. How Dent might be aware of what crimes will and won't get responded to with shows of force by the city. Tricking his opposition in the crime world into making too much noise, stepping on the wrong toes. And even as a GOOD DA, Harvey probably still got wind of who in power was more amenable to corruption. Seeing these good guy skills and knowledge leveraged for foul ends.
PLUS! It makes for such a useful in world cautionary tale, and why plenty of people would have misgivings about Batman. Seeing how much harm Two Face can cause as a former beacon of hope makes the fear of such an unchecked power player as Batman way more reasonable. The DCU's fear of Superman turning evil was always a little wild because it's SUPERMAN! But people thinking BATMAN might fall off the deep end and go crazy? Hell, for most Gothamites it's probably more "when, not if".
Two-Face should have been the big bad in TDKR instead of Bane. Would have made it way more compelling of a trilogy.
@@NoHiro-qc4dvNow I’m mad that we never got that version of TDKR.
Thank you. Harvey is my all-time favourite antagonist in the Batman universe, and he is been regularly underused in live action. His dynamics in TDK was one of the aspects that rubbed me the wrong way. KIling him off almost instantly just looks as a worst way to say "wasted opportunity". Also, one thing that particularly concerns me is "dark and realistic" take that was maniphested by the film, yet it completely went beyond every level of physics/human organism peuciarities when it came to the wounds of Harvey which transformed him into Two-Face. Gone with the original way of making him Two-Face (and the way it happened in the comics is very grounded in reality, unfortunately; one can find stories of people wounded like that out of jealousy, vengeance etc. in true crime from many decades), instead there are different elements affecting his face...and in the end, he 1)keeps his eye on the wounded side which is...doubtful given what happened to him; 2)haven't died of painful shock? How?
Every film Joker performance since has been trying to be Heath Ledger. And that sucks. Why can’t we portray a goofier Joker again?
Also it’s really obvious to tell who watched The Dark Knight as a kid when they talk about other Batman media. Especially when they say “Why isn’t the Joker obsessed with Batman?”
We really need a Sascha Baron Cohen-Joker.
You know, as much as I have misgivings about it, at least the Harley Quinn show did something different with the Joker. And NGL, it’s actually funny watching him in his get-up being a good husband and stepfather and even becoming possibly Gotham’s best mayor. It still feels like his warped humor is around even though he’s not being a villain anymore.
Especially since Heath Ledger's is awful. It's got ashamed of the source material energy all over it
Leto joker tried being fantastical but we didn't get more off it.
@BruceWayne-xq7bb oh we barely got anything of that universe it took strange and bold turns but didn't justify anything because was handled with prequel energy everything was teasing things for movies that never came like BvS featuring a broken Batman and little of Batman's world because they were keen on having it all in that trilogy that kept delayed til they just abandoned it for The Batman movie reboot and even that's being left to spoil.
Would kill for joker using all his practical joke gadgets. Like acid squirting flower,exploding rubber chicken,electro joy buzzer,fun/twisted!
Depends on the story and tone. Even then it needs to fit the theme and aesthetics
The fake flower can spray flesh dissolving acid in a more gritty Batman story
@@christiandauz3742. Joker;"disturbing and goofy". What you mean;"Not fitting"?!
My favorite Batman comic I’ve ever read is Detective Comics no 1017, where it’s all about Batman trying and failing to save a orphan from dying of hypothermia due to running away from an orphanage that Bruce donates money and technology to. Children had been mysteriously disappearing, and Bruce is visibly upset by Miguel’s (the orphan) passing. He resolves the case not as Batman, but as Bruce Wayne who turns the orphanage director in to the police, but still punches the guy for good measure. It’s the most human I’ve seen Batman in a single issue story in a long time and really gets to the core of what Batman’s mission really is and that punching the Riddler isn’t the whole of it. It’s also the issue he flat out says that Superman is his favorite superhero. It’s canon.
Batman movies peaked with Mask of the Phantasm.
Batman in general peaked with Btas (or the Arkham games).
No lies detected here.
Preach!
Batman peaked in the 1940’s
That's not true
How could you say something so controversial yet so brave
@@greenbird6435 more like dumb as hell. Dude was criticizing a trilogy because of its impact.
@@StraightEdgeKnight19 How is that dumb? 😭 He also doesn't just do that, but reflects on the trilogy, what it did, how it portrayed the whole Batman world and what it means and how all of that contributed to mischaracterization in future adaptations because of the impact it had.
@@declanista that don’t matter son, regardless of the impact the trilogy is still hailed as the best comic book movie trilogy, and TDK is STILL hailed as the best comic book movie of all time. Keep coping.
@@StraightEdgeKnight19 By what standards? As in general film, adaptation, realism, technical characteristics, audience scores, or...?
Because as a comic book adaptation, it is very bad. In writing aspects the trilogy is pretty bland and doesn't hold on to the world itself, what it's trying to present and the characters.
The dialogue is painful, the understanding of the world, how it works, the characters motivations, who they are. Everything gets to such a superficial level it's insane. Not even mentioning the butchering of Batman's persona and personal reflection and conflicts.
There's no doubt the movie The Dark Knight is well loved along with the others in the trilogy (I think Batman Begins is fine, but I don't doubt that everyone agrees that The Dark Knight Rises was a mess), but it's not a perfect adaptation by any means, and much less a good COMIC BOOK adaptation.
Still, no matter what the general perception is, the trilogy can be critiqued, analyzed and get every aspect shredded if someone wants lol. Especially if it's considered so important among adaptations, as you say, and has had such a big impact on popular culture.
@@declanista again son that don’t matter. Cope harder.
When you brought up Joker's pettiness I instantly remembered how he reacted, in the Burton movie, when Batman stole his balloons. That scene and the one of him pulling out the giant revolver still gets a laugh out me 🤣
What people don't get is that part of the reason those films are so popular is that Nolan did his own thing with Batman. Other creators should follow his example by doing their own thing with Batman as opposed to just copying him.
The Nolan trilogy happens to be a really cool crime thriller trilogy; I just wish It wasn’t a Batman film
I wish it was actually Batman and not Nolan's interpretation of what a realistic Batman could look like.
@ as someone who bemoans constantly the death of traditional Crime films … this film could’ve done more good if it weren’t a Batman film
@@BaithNawah
What is a "Batman movie" supposed to look like?
it could have been fun if the trilogy was comprised of a film about gordon watching gotham fall (and the damages it's done to their elite where we'd be following bruce wane's turmoil boil over into leaving the country for a while) doing his damndest to slow it down by taking on falcone, a film following bruce's return to gotham from his worldly travels finding it rapidly transforming and testing his limits as he honed his senses to counter normal criminals that clearly aren't calling the shots anymore, and the third film following selina finally getting the citywide anarchy she always longed for only to fall in love with the chase due to a certain masked vigilante who can keep up with her, this all coming to a close with her decision between the city she thought she didn't care for and the kind of freedom she thought she wanted
This is why the 1966 Batman was unironically one of the best adaptations. I didn't even realize Batman was supposed to be kind or wholesome until I watched Adam West teach Robin about the importance of road safety and wealth taxes.
I haven't watch it not do I feel like watching it. Too campy and not serious for my taste
Batman should feel real. Even the more comedic parts of the Teen Titans cartoon felt real compared to the Boomer Batman stuff!
Agree except one problem is I'm not always sure how sincere it was. Sometimes it feels too much like 60s Hollywood making fun of traditional heroes. Compare it to Trek's very earnest and still cool Captain Kirk for instance.
@@christiandauz3742 lol according to Alan Moore the guy who made Killing Joke and Watchment Adam West in the definitive batman
I was just thinking today about how the Joker should be written in modern stories.
Tbh I feel like none of the existing Jokers, not Mark Hammil, not Keith Ledger, not even the original comic Jokers ever really capitalized on his potential fully.
Joker should not be self-aware. And he always is.
When he jokes or taunts Batman, it always feels like he knows he's evil snd so any idea that he's just sick and needs help kinda goes out the window. He's just fucking with Batman and everyone else and getting away with it on an insanity plea. But he never feels like he's not in control. Like he doesn't know what he's doing.
If I wrote the Joker, I'd actually not make him a main villain. He should be a real wild card, either helping other villains or even Batman out but then twisting that help with a cruel irony purely for the sake of having a laugh. He should feel incomprehensible, like his sense of humour is not just dark, but alien.
And he wouldn't just kill people either. He'd do weird shit too.
Like, kidnapping a dozen carriages with babies in them and turning them into a racecar that he rushes into a highway. His schemes should be as hilarious as they are dangerous and sometimes even fucking stupid. He should even act against his own well-being for a laugh, be willing to be the butt of the joke.
This is what true chaos would be. This is what would make Joker even scarier as a foil to Batman: how could a detective who solves crimes through reason predict an adversary who has no idea what he's doing?
I feel like your over estimating the media literacy with joker in modern day, everyone thinks hes crazy and more importantly mentally ill, people look at the dark knight and the joker movie and will say "yeah a mentality ill person would do that." When all evidence to the contrary says otherwise. They have been too subtle with the evil element, to add to your modern joker make him refuse to take a label have him refuse to be called crazy and have the system keep him alive because they need to label his actions to justify his horrible crimes. "Hes an outlier, hes sick, no one sane could be capable of all this" make the audience grapple with the fact this is just a terrible person who wants to be horrible and batman with his greatest strength and flaw, his believe that anyone can be better and deserves every chance to try.
Exactly, the best Joker is one that just shows up at the worst possible time and he's either going to commit an atrocity or do something silly and dissappear again, and Batman never knows which. He should be almost like a running gag.
The Nolanverse pronunciation of the name "falcone" is actually accurate. It's an American bastardization of the Italian pronunciation which would be Fahl-cohn-eh.
Yep. Same with Raws al Ghul being closer to the Arabic pronunciation. Every single Arabic speaker I’ve talked to in person and found online tells me that Raysh is not the Arabic pronunciation. It just got popular because of the Animated series.
@@Ren_Davis0531 Raysh sounds more like Hebrew, which is odd. Ghul is still pronounced incorrectly and would be more like "gh-au-ll" with a more gutteral "g" and a deeper "l". Honestly Ra's Al-Shaytan would've been a better name but it's understandable why they didn't use it.
@@hyperion3145
Because Raysh is the Hebrew pronunciation. They got it mixed up and went with Hebrew instead of Arabic.
To be fair to Nolan, what he made are movies, not tv shows or series.
Its hard to capture all the Batmanisms in such a tight time frame.
Atleast we got Matt Reeves and James Gunn cooking up PEAK DC now
I miss gothic Batman and gothic Gotham.
Also freaky villains.
The Batman and Gotham Knights
@@TheMockingjay74 Kelley Jones Batman
Nolan casually white washing all the villains and no one bating an eye is hilarious
Ikr?! Also, he cant write a compelling female character.
🙃
@moustik31 He's a fridge master
What you mean white washing? Please!
aoart from liam neesen character, who else was white washed?
@@merlin5662 Bane
Honestly, I think the Nolan trilogy was influenced by its namesake, the dark knight returns. It, too, is an overall good story that is fundamentally lacking what makes Batman himself. The main difference, and main justification, is that in Returns, Bruce has gotten far older and lost touch, almost becoming a thrill-seeker bereft of the empathy which drove him originally. He was the Batman we knew at one point, but became disconnected and brutal.
I think Ben Affleck was a solid casting choice for Batman, but unfortunately, Snyder just did not understand Batman, let alone Superheroes and what makes them interesting.
Unironically Ben Affleck as Batman and Jeremy Irons as Alfred were the most enjoyable parts of the movie.
@@intergalactic92agreed. A solo film with those two would have been amazing.
**Sees Title** It's a Bold Strategy Cotton, let's see if it pays off for him.
I'm pretty sure everybody knew what he was going to say.
While it did, its not really the fault of the movie that people want to copy its success, that would be like saying sci-fi was ruined by star wars because hundreads of bad movies wanted to be the next star wars. Blame the people who copied not what is being copied
It's usually something (at least quite good) and studios learning all the wrong lessons from it.
The movie has it's faults too. Batman as a character wasn't really interesting in the last 2 movies. Nolan's version of Batman is just not likable to me. Mainly because how quickly he retired as Batman. He doesn't grow or change much after the first movie. Batman in the comics gets growth as a character even after the origin story. The Batman showed one of them. Also Nolan's movies are too grounded to the point it's not fun anymore. Gotham is just a generic city, his villains other then the Joker are boring, the fights aren't usually good, Batman is really incompetent against regular criminals. His detective side is barely present. Even though being a detective is a major part of his character. He literally needed to breach privacy of every citizen to find one dude. Even then he only won at the end of TDK because of luck. Everyone in those ships happen to be selfless enough to risk their lives.
These are great movies no doubt. But these are superhero movies that are ashamed to be superhero movies.
I think one of the best ways to point out the randomness of Joker’s Cruelty is through the death of Jason Todd. Joker beats him half to death with a crowbar just because he felt like it, when Jason’s mom points out how Batman is gonna react when he sees what Joker did, Joker replies with, “Hadn’t thought of that”, he then decides to blow up the warehouse so Batman doesn’t find out he did it.
One of the most impactful Batman moments, one of the most famous deaths in DC, something always listed as the worst thing Joker has ever done… and he did it just for the Hell of it.
There was no point to it like Barbara getting shot in Killing Joke, no elaborate plan like when he got Superman to kill Lois, he did it just because it was the first thing that came to mind.
Or even in Btas, in the episode ‘The man who killed Batman’, Joker sentences said man to death Via a vat of acid at Batmans funeral, locking Sid in a casket with Batmans cowl, having a conveyor belt that wheels him into the vat, with Sid desperately apologising as he’s wheeled inside. After the casket sinks, Joker stand there, sighs, and then says “Well that was fun! Who’s for Chinese?”
Sometimes Joker just needs to be a guy who either doesn’t have a point to his cruelty, or is doing it for the most terrifyingly pettiest of reasons
In the Rebirth comic books, Bruce Wayne doesn't just donate to charity, he goads other billionaires, even evil ones like Lex Luthor in Veronica Cale, into donating to charity. They manipulate Bruce Wayne back, but still.
A lot of the faults stem from the simple fact that Nolan has no interest in making movies about people, just ideas or philosophies. Which isn't a bad thing per say... but it certainly should be isolated from greater comic lore
So Comics aren't Philosophical or Poignant?
Nolan is one of those directors who thinks he’s more clever than he really is. Which is why I do not like his work
@@christiandauz3742They're not ENTIRELY about that no
I do agree with the Realistic Batman, with no fantastical villans getting really old. Batman's villlians are only rivaled by Spider-man. I'm also very tired of the Joker in general. Massively over used.
I have come to agree to with the statement “Nolan never understood who Batman is.” It’s fascinating that there really isn’t a crime noir mystery in any of Nolan’s stories. The DCAU Batman and the Brave and the Bold Barman;, two Versions who are absolutely goofier than Nolan’s realistic take, show more maturity and depth than Bale’s Batman. You’re right that the DCAU Batman is more restrained, active, and is quite charitable even when he is playing the obtuse billionaire. Brave and the Bold is yes still haunted by his parents death but he is able to be less grim and has a sense of humor. Like he isn’t going to be ok with Catwoman KILLING a man in front of him (which is what happened in dark knight rises). But an element that is less discussed is the lack of commitment Nolan’s Batman has to being a hero than two animated versions.
The DCAU Batman never stopped being Batman until his body couldn’t handle the toll. No mater what the pain or anger he accumulated over the years, no matter what relationships he ruined, Bruce couldn’t never stand aside when crime was amok. Seeing him quit being Batman hits more than Bale’s Bruce Wayne wandering around the mansion. Kevin’s bruce Wayne would then, after years, of being in depressive state, find a way to fight crime by training the new Batman, Terry Guinness, showing his need to stop crime never died.
The Brave and the Bold Batman never considers quitting as a positive influence. Yes there was a fanfic written by Alfred of having Bruce marry Selina and having a kid, but notice how Bruce never becomes a hermit. Bruce yes retired in this fanfic, but he passes the role of Batman to nightwing and continues to make appearances in public, like when he creates a Batman museum. To him, the world should remember the good deeds of Batman. When Alfred suggests to the real Bruce Wayne that he could marry Selina, Bruce says no, swearing to continue crime fighting. In the shockingly great finale, Batman when confronting that his show will be cancelled and make away for a darker show, refuses to succumb to network pressures to use a gun, and addresses the audience in a heartfelt manner with every character who appeared in the show “I’ll. Always be there with the hammer of justice, and thank you.”
Bale’s Batman quit because he was sad. He didn’t even train the “not Robin” cop properly nor does he have a son-father relationship with “not Robin” cop to teach him how to be a vigilante. What’s critical for Batman and Robin to work is that Bruce provides dick/tim/stepshnje/cassandra/damian a safe role model to work out their issues. Simply giving an inexperienced, angry person the tools to be Batman only leads to more problems-see Jason and Azrael All the while dating a killer. Something bar bith anointed versions would have scoffed at.
Correction: Bales Batman stopped because Gotham didnt need him anymore.
He suceeded, he won. If hes whatever Gotham needs him to be, He wont be whatever Gotham doesnt need him to be.
It's like when the Watchmen comic came out, and suddenly everyone wanted "gritty, realistic superpowered beings with chips on their shoulders." Look what they did to Superman!
Man of Steel is more interstellar like than it is dark and gritty. It's a more mythological and grandiose take on the character.
I never understood the desire to inject realism into the story about the grown man who dresses up like a big bat to fight insane super criminals.
Helps ground him more to feel more believable.
@@kwayneboy1524 I mean you can try to make him believable but at the end of the day it is what it is still
@@LegendaryOverfiend okay?
I read a fanfic where a multiversal Batman considered all the different Jokers he'd seen and was glad that "his" Joker was the type to go to Arkham peacefully after seeing Batwoman make Batman laugh.
I still look back on this movie and realize that it’s the reason joker is always the main villain I really wish DC would get someone new black mask, Mr freeze anybody.
X was popular. Therefore everything becomes reflection of X.
I've seen a comment somewhere a long time ago that said something along the lines of "if Superman represents an idealistic hope that everyone wants to believe in, then Batman represents a more grounded hope - that someone can clean up our home without being a superhuman. A person whose weakness isn't about power scaling, or a special stone - but his own psyche. He grapples with his shortcomings the way anyone else would: he makes allies, he tries to give opportunities to those who have experienced similar misfortunes as himself. He continues to believe that an old friend can fight his demons and win. He does everything he can because he wants to make sure what happens to him, what happened to his Robins, never happens to anyone else again."
I kinda agree. I dont hate nolan, he did a great job….but also he did too great of a job making batman grounded and making people forget how much of a cartoon the idea of a batman is. Maybe it’s my new midlife crisis, but I kinda miss the wacky oddball comic book stuff of the Schumacher and burton era.
No he didn't. It only seems that way because of the self caused batman drought WB caused by wanting to be too protective over the brand and thinking little of the audience thinking multiple Batman projects would trigger rage quitting.
I don't hate Nolan. I just feel sad for how big a footprint he left behind.
His trilogy is a bad representation of the Batman mythos. Ras' sucked and Batman would have saved him, Joker is well acted but isn't the Joker, and Bane is a joke.
I really hated how UN-class conscious the Nolan movies were. So much of it is just propaganda for the 1%, from the characterization of the Joker, to the "Some men just want to watch the world burn", to the cop-aganda of a ‘peaceful protest' of unarmed cops marching against 'an unruly mob of poors'
@@nickoliekeyov746 lol. lmao even
I can’t wait for someone to just say: he’s a dude dressed as a bat with a teen bird-themed sidekick, who fights a clown, a walking snowman, a man who likes crosswords, a scary plant lady, etc.
So, what’s the point of taking this seriously? Can’t have a comic without comedic elements, and subsequently suspending belief
I wish comic book movies weren't ashamed to be based on comics
TvTropes even has this as a Trope.
Hated what they did with Luke Cage/Jessica Jones/Iron Fist
Fucking David Tennant in a Purple Suit named Kevin instead of a Purple Skinned dude named Zebediah Kilgrave named The Purple Man
I haven’t seen a lot of Batman media.
As my favorite as of right now is
THE BATMAN
LEGO BATMAN MOVIE
Mostly due to how it’s kinda does commentary of how Bruce despite his tragic past and broody personality. He’s still a multi-billionaire that’s basically a power fantasy towards “red pill/alpha male” bros.
Lego Batman basically deconstructs his character by allowing him to understand that it’s okay to be vulnerable and for people to help you. Along with the fact that he doesn’t defeat Joker by beating the shit out of him but by coming and working together. Even if the villains does goes to jail at the end
THE BATMAN
Is basically an arc of how Bruce becomes less of an “edgy Batman that’s broody” to more of a symbol of peace that the citizen are less afraid of and has more trust in him.
Sorry for my rambling. Just wanna share my thoughts
Finally, someone else who also considers The Lego Batman Movie as the Best Batman Movie.
I recommend giving Telltail Batman a shot. Probably one of my favorite Batmans and made a really good sympathetic Joker.
The dark Knight trilogy is a great set of two movies, but they are very noticeably ashamed to be superhero movies, and outside of brave and the bold it seems like WB is scared to try campy Batman again let alone his larger mythos for the robins
What makes directors like James Gunn, Sam Raimi, Guillermo del Toro, Taika Waititi, Chloe Zhao, Richard Donner, Tim Burton and to a lesser extent Zack Snyder is that they understand comic books, Nolan understands films more.
@@jonathaneilbeck2263does he ? After the back2back snoozefest of inception and tenet
@@jonathaneilbeck2263 He understands a style of film more. And that style tends to get old real fast when you watch his films back to back.
Bullshit.
Theyre no more "ashamed to be Superhero movies" than The Batman was.
I love The Dark Knight and Christian Bale is my Favourite Batman, but I won't deny that it's influence on future Batman media is a double edged sword (not helped by many writers taking the wrong lessons from it).
Again: nobody was forced to follow Nolan's take.
@PhilipMertens Where did I say that?
Finally, i, too, do not care for these films in regards to its depiction of batman and how that affected batman for years after
To me the Nolan films helped in focus on grounded Batman being the ONLY way to do Batman which to me is ridiculous. The League of Assassins are just watered down and I dare admit it but I wanted the League to be VERY similar to how the assasins are done in John Wick films. Having Ras Al Ghul control a secret society where he is the one that controls all crime and sits has the HEAD of the High Table so to speak like in the John Wick films and making them actual killers makes perfect sense.
It took me watching John Wick 3 and Hallie Berry character looking like straight Talia made me see how Nolan kinda wasted the potential of my favorite Batman villain and his family the Al Ghuls.
You either die an icon, or live long enough to distort your legacy.
My attempt to adapt Harvey's "die a hero" speech
Mega Man ironically went down this path as a video game franchise. As soon as X7 was released, I don't think it was able to truly recover from that. It peaked at Mega Man Zero 4, and now Z4 casts that shadow over the rest of the entire franchise. Every other version, be it Archie, Fully Charged, or even Secret Level, all had shades of Mega Man Zero. Sonic meanwhile, the franchise it crossed over with, should consider itself lucky to have fans that legitimately care about the world beyond Green Hill Zone, Angel Island, Central City, Empire City, and The United Federation that make up the four major locales. DC meanwhile has bottlenecked itself into Gotham City, Darkseid's Homeworld, the Green Lantern Corps, and Metropolis because of it's attempt at a cinematic universe.
One thing that I do not like about this Nolan's realistic approach to Batman. Fantastical Batman is it supposed to have a lot of high-tech gadgets embedded within his costume. While at the same time still being able to fight at full capacity against 30 well trained henchmen at the first floor of a building. And still having the ability to fight 30 more and the big bad boss man.While still showing efficiency without breaking a sweat.
Batman Begins was the best of the trilogy…don’t @ me
Its the one movie thats actually about batman
@@dc7981even that was meh, because the story adaptations were shit.
the dark knight is an amazing film whose desperate to be a crime thriller about a non descript agent, using high end tech and the surveillance state to like catch a psychotic mad planner with a sort of military background ( the joker's implied backstory is cool)
@FrancoDFernando
I had such high hopes after that. Was disappointed in Dark Knight, it didn't even have the atmosphere Begins had.
Much as I enjoyed Tom Hardy’s performance, I hate how it whitewashed a character who is built around Hispanic culture and stylings.
People complain about race swaps yet no one ever seems to complain about Bane, Ra's, and Talia being white washed. Hell Talia, Ra's, and Damien Wayne constantly get portrayed as just looking white in media
@@MILDMONSTER1234 That is partly because comic artists often ignore the nuances of a character's racial background (like how a lot of recent X Men artists portray Sunspot with light Hispanic features, even though Roberto is supposed to be Afro Brazilian).
@@eamonndeane587 This, its definitely better now but still. For as much crap as the harley quinn show gets at least that show actually remembered to make Damien look like a mixed race kid
@MILDMONSTER1234 I'm not a fan of the Harley Quinn show (a lot of the humour doesn't vibe with me AT All), but I can begrudgingly respect the animators for recognising that nuance.
X Men 97 depicting Sunspot as just looking tanned, though? That's worthy of an eye roll....
Oh boy, get ready when Harvey Dent and Commissioner Gordon got blackwashed.
But I do agree, I would have preferred a Hispanic actor take the role of Bane. Surprisingly, Injustice made me love the character more since he was fun and brutal to play as.
“He’s out of line..but he’s right!”
I would argue that Nolan alone isn’t at fault it’s DC itself they saw how gobsmacked successful TDK was and just wanted to capitalize on it and it hasn’t taken until RECENTLY that they realized “hmm maybe we should try to loosen up from that and let’s also stop putting Batman front and center let’s get it back to the man of tomorrow now like it should be”
the Byatmen hehehe.
For me personally Batman TAS would always be definitive version. From stories and characters to art style and wonderful acting, it is the best iteration of the Dark Knight for me
I love the Gothem of the Arkham games. It gives the strongest city full of secrets built on top of an older city filled with darker secrets. The parts of old Gothen underground made of late 1800s architecture were my favorite parts.
I am the oddball when I say I much prefer Batman Begins over the other two Nolan films. There was more style and atmosphere to balance out the “realism” that was utterly lost after Begins.
To me at least, Batman the Animated Series remains the best and the quintessential Batman. What made this version of Batman effective to me is balance, the series is chock full of action, suspense, horror, drama, humour, sci-fi and fantasy, there was something for everyone, the writing and the animation balance each other, with some of the best voice acting ever put to animation. The big thing that really stands out to me, that Batman TaS does what the Dark Knight struggled with was Batman's humanity, sure he's a crime fighter and a vigilante, but Batman is still Bruce Wayne, he is still human, and the series really shines Batman's foibles. Episode "Nothing to Fear" we see Bruce's fear of shaming his parents, that he will fail to live up to hold his slain parents good name, nevertheless, Batman overcomes his fear with the icon line "I am vengeance, I am the night, I am BATMAN". Another iconic episode is "Perchance to Dream", this is my favourite episode of all time, this is one of the few times when the main character is Bruce Wayne - not Batman, the majority of the screentime is starring Bruce, this is quite rare, and I love this because it shows Bruce's deepest desires, to have his parents back, and not living the nightmare of seeing their deaths. But of course, it's a dream created by the Mad Hatter, and no matter how attractive the dream is, Bruce will not live a lie, his valour and heroic qualities are deeply ingrained, the Mad Hatter underestimated Batman's qualities, who failed because he already lives in a wonderland, thus couldn't grasp that this quality is absent in Batman. Perhaps one of the most interesting episodes is "I am the Night", this is one of the darkest episodes in Batman TaS, it takes place on the anniversary of the murder of his parents, Batman is dreary and glum, that no matter how much he fights crime, there is no end in sight, and when Commissioner Gordon is wounded in the line of duty, Batman reaches his lowest point, another person he cared for is shot by a criminal, but the episode ends with Batman thwarting the criminal when he tries to kill Gordon, Batman realises that as long as Gordon is fighting crime, he should fight crime too, and that his heroism is sorely needed. Another episode I should also mention is "Appointment in Crime Alley", the location where his parents are murdered, but despite this, Batman is still hopeful for a better world, he fights crimes to defend the remaining good left in this troubled neighbourhood, and this is what the Dark Knight is missing. Batman is more than just brooding and bleak hero, he is still optimistic, holding out for something better, Christopher Nolan's Batman leaves out too much of Batman's humanity and humility, after all, Bruce Wayne was sympathetic to Dick Grayson after his parents were murdered by Tony Zucco, then trained him into being Robin, the Dynamic Duo is another example of Batman's humanity, two heroes trying to bring justice to Gotham City.
Its a shame how TAS has spawned such a truly toxic fanbase.
Where exactly has the Nolanverse Batman shown a "lack of humanity". If anything, its quite the opposite.
@@spencermalley10 Dude, nobody's attacking you if you like the Nolan movies, a lot of people did and do. How is saying TAS is a great example of how to do Batman, another take many people tend to agree with or at least understand the position of even if they disagree, make OP "toxic"?
@@gregvs.theworld451 The toxicity is when people say TAS is "the only way to do Batman" and put down other takes on the character for not alligning with it.
Re: Joker
And all, ALL respect to Heath Ledger
But Joker keeps getting pushed farther and farther into the darkenss beyond the character's intention.
Long gone are the electric joy buzzers.
Killing Joke was supposed to be an EXTREME story, not Joker's base jump starting point (regardless of possible origin revelation).
But even THAT had some homicidal gags in it.
I once told my mother that Batman was referred to as the world’s greatest detective and that it was a big part of his character in the comics after showing her the Nolan movies and she looked at me like I said Batman is an alien merman who played the bagpipe. This is a person who grew up loving Adam West’s Batman, who was able to figure out all kinds of crazy shit so I think you’re right about the Nolan trilogy leading casual audiences to believe the detective element isn’t important to Batman
He's a terrible detective in the comics, though. I wish I could post a link.
One of my greatest irritations regarding modern Batman is their tendency to omit Robin. For me Robin is one of the most essential aspect to the Batman's mythos, yet numerous adaptations either ignore them, kill them off or have them be a jobber with many modern Batman stories having Gordon or Alfred frequently take the spot as Batman's partner, hell even fucking Harley Quinn has made more appearances than Dick Grayson is modern stories, which is quite frustrating considering Robin was introduced long before figures like Gordon and Alfred. I really dislike the reasoning that they don't align with the dark and brooding nature of Batman even through there have been numerous dark narratives featuring them and besides we have plenty of stories featuring a dark and brooding Batman who operates solo; why not explore something a little more different? That's the thing that gets to me about Caped Crusaders show like we already have tons and tons and tons of dark and gritty batman stories where he works alone, particularly set during year one. What makes this show that much different from the others? Like there is so much untapped potential with not only with Robin but the whole Bat Family; however, due to the perception that these characters will conflict with the more brooding, solitary nature of Batman, they always rarely come to fruition and don't get me wrong; there've been many Batman stories I enjoy without the Bat Family, but personally, they are the main draw for me and It wouldn't be too much for to ask just include characters like Cassandra Cain or Tim Drake in another Batman project for Christ sake.
Pretty sure Gordon dates back to Batman’s first appearance, according to Wikipedia on the very first panel of his debut issue, so he came before Robin.
Gordon came before Robin.
Dick being Robin is essential to show Batman go from the dark brooding loner to seeing the light, Dick becoming Nightwing is the peak of that because as Batman has said multiple times, Dick is better than him all the skill and none of the darkness. In Infinite Crisis when Earth 2 Superman tries to win over Bruce to "fix" the world because he says it has gone dark and twisted he asks one question, is his Dick Grayson worse than Earth 2s? Superman can only admit that Earth 1s Nightwing is just as great a man and as such Bruce refuses to change the universe. Barbara becoming Oracle is also a necessity, she gets to be a hero and then after a horrible trauma she finds her own way to still be a hero and Cassandra Cain as Batgirl works because she is the inverse of Batman
I think its ironic that looking back on it, out of all the scenes that stick with me in the dark knight are probably the scene in which batman realizes that the jokers gunman were hostages, showing him actually thinking things through after all the other complex bait-and-switch plans joker did, and the follow-up scene where one of the intimate's throwing the controller for the explosives' on civilians ship, showing a more optimistic and hopeful view on society that ultimatly shows how the joker was wrong about how people would kill each other brought to there most desperate moments. These two scenes, while also really good scenes, I think I like the most is because actually shows glimpeses of the dark knight being a batman story rather than a story with batman
joker is the worst mary sue character in comic HISTORY
Joker used to be a sore loser who would throw a hissy fit whenever he lost but now he always has to seem invincible, always right, always unbreakable, always winning in the end, and i hate it.
Nolan Batman is a billionaire elitist because that is what would be most "realistic" in reality. Billionaires don't care about the little guy. Nolan is a realistic Batman for better or worse lol.
The Ra's vs. "Raish" issue is easy. When it's a bunch of comics geeks, nobody cares about how words are actually pronounced as long as Denny O'Neil pronounces that way. When a film is being released worldwide and going to be seen by a not-insignificant amount of Arabic speakers, the decision to go with the proper (or at least anglicized version) is the way to go.
Two words... Gritty. Realism. Two words that belong nowhere in, on, around or NEAR the Caped Crusader.
Again perfect sort of visual and aritistic driver for a traditional crime thriller or even a story focused on exploring the nature of an angry vile god ( in the case of Superman) it’s just no studio is green lighting this sour, somber crime thriller , nor this somber high budget exploration of biblical god
@Blood_Video_company Comic book superheroes should be whimsical and childlike... yes, even the noir gumshoe who DRESSES LIKE A FLYING RAT.
@@thetribunaloftheimaginatio5247 i get it like the issue is that this ips have grown to dominate hollywood scene in a way where getting anything that isn't them to get any sort of eyes, or marketting or whatever is nearly impossible, this is why so many film makers use them as a way of pushing an idea that is very much against what super heroes should be ... again this is genuinely the effect of franchises becoming so large and influencial .
@Blood_Video_company For me the issue is matching the creator to the material. Christopher Nolan is a great filmmaker, buuuut this is not a guy who should be directing comic book movies. Comics are emotional... Nolan thinks emotions are a psychic virus that corrupts and subverts the Swiss-watch machinery of carefully-crafted, professionally-executed masculine power fantasies.
Yeah the whole gritty realism take can be honselty goofy alot of time. It comes across as ether trying too hard or being ashamed it comic book stuff. Sure series like watchman did do this style, but still had it fantastic momments. To me, sin city, both movie and graphic novel, show how you should do gritty in comic stuff. Sure, it is brutal and grim, but still stylized, and the likes
The Dark Knight Returns solved the whole Batman's Vehicles Having Guns problem with one line.
"Rubber bullets."
Even in the dark future of that story where Batman uses firearms they still are designed to incapacitate rather than kill. Which makes it weird what are supposed to be more standard Batmen have live rounds.
When I rewatched TAS last year, there's an episode very early on where Bruce is working in a soup kitchen. He learns that homeless people have gone missing and goes undercover to try and find out what's happening because the police aren't interested. This was in the first season of the Animated series, and I had completely forgotten that was a thing Batman used to do.
Batman used to just be small scale detective stories
I think Batman as a whole is honestly pretty edge lord friendly. Especially post Nolan. I was going into my freshman year when DK came out and I was honestly always annoyed how everyone was so obsessed with joker and didn’t seem to really care about Batman. By the time I left high school Superman became and still is my favorite superhero. Stories like for all seasons, secret origin, all star, last son, new 52 Action Comics, Kingdom Come, Brainiac and watching STAS really made me realize how great he was.
is it crazy to think that one of the only other jokers that stray from imitating Nolan's joker is the LEGO versions, not just the 2017 LEGO batman movie but in those straight to DVD and streaming ones as well
My biggest issue with the Nolan Batman is that he's the Ayn Randian reinterpretation I didn't need. Batman has been such a complex character for a long time, and I think a lot of people reduce him to beating up poor people or whatever and forget some of his crucial character building. Where's the Bruce Wayne who tries to get all of his rich friends to reinvest in Gotham so that people have better lives? Where's the Bruce Wayne who donates his time to a soup kitchen? Batman cares about the citizens of Gotham.
I have a joke about the Nolan films that is quite relevant. Nolan Batman films have three categories of character: criminal, cop and Batman. All characters fit into this, there is no civilian perspective. This is post 911 Batman and they made him a supercop.
When Lego Batman has a better Batman than you, you've got a problem.
it kind of took me years after watching that to sort of understand who Ayn Rand was.
i think i heard the name loosely after coming across some scholarship with her name on it in 2010/2011
but i never read any of her book, all i heard from others was that she was kind of bad news
also big non-fiction books scared me attention-span wise 😅
the beating up poor people jokes and narrative line that i saw for a long while online was weird and made me kind of feel bad for liking Batman. i sort of felt like i must've missed some kind of subtext that i wasn't really seeing due to not being as well read and stuff. Also my libraries at the time had limited Batman material to check and stuff.
@@TwinRiver100 when a character like Batman is around for this long, its really easy for him to get confused. I mean he first appeared in comics in 1939, and he has quite the legacy. He has been Flanderized to hell and back in a lot of media, and it's sad to see him reduced the way he is when he has the potential to talk about really important topics like wealth disparity, trauma, mental health, empathy, crime, law and so much more.
Nolan's Batman established this detached lone wolf Batman for modern film audiences that we have yet to recover from. Ayn Rand's philosophy has gripped a lot of people and even if Nolan doesn't say he's read her work, it is very similar to the thought process. Rand's got a very libertarian view of a big strong man whose so focused on his own self interest that everyone else's happiness does not even factor in. In a similar vein, he helped write the new Superman movie which suffers from the same problem. Batman can be paranoid and brooding, but he also wants to uplift the people around him. People forget the positive aspects of Batman and kind of reduce him to cop 2 a lot of the time which is such a deep shame.
Nolan could have called back to Batman Begins in the Bane fight if they fought in that huge crowd and Batman hid among the people and did hit and run tactics, like the training scene with the ninjas in the first movie. Would have been so sick.
Although that is a great idea he definetly would have stood out in broad daylight with a black suit.
Which makes me sad really, is that as good as The Batman film was -- they decided to hone in on their Joker iteration to be another crazed lunatic with the decaying skin and sh*t.
I now fear I'll meet the sweet embrace of death before seeing an actual Clown Prince of Crime on the big screen again.
Objection: Keaton's Batman is never actually doing charitable things either outside of a mention off-screen, and he murders people with machine guns and bombs. He's pretty much The Punisher. It's better implied that he's not necessarily much of a hero tbf and still far too disturbed. Also, two of those examples were literal murders, namely Joker, and One Face. [TLJ isn't Two Face, you'll never convince me], when that's an option, of course there are more solutions.
As for Nolan, one has to remember that terrorism was all the rage in 2005, and every other TV show was a crime show...or reality TV, and there was a lot of pressure to not be Batman & Robin. And like M. Night Shyamalan, The Wachowskis, George Lucas, or Rian Johnson, characters take a backseat to themes in Nolan films. They all take the saying, "Little people talk people, average people talk events, great minds talk ideas" way too seriously.
I'm baffled that you didn't consider the ending when Batman perma-retires and runs off with Anne Hathaway, which I'd argue shows that he has moved on, and has grown. And in a real-world scenario, yeah, Batman has to be a phase.
And while there is a warmth in chemistry, it's Keaton's Batman that doesn't get to run away, and his relationship with Vale before fails. And until a comics continuation, there is no Robin figure at all.
Look, I still prefer Burton to Nolan, and I find Reeve's to be best too, but I think you're missing a few parts. Cheers mate.
To be fair to Nolan, the reason for the deescalation between movies was Heath Ledgers death he had to completely rewrite the story he had planned and his love for Ledger had him time-skip the story and not even address all the hard work he laid down in that film.
The biggest problem I always had with TDK and TDKR was the attempt at realism.
Turning Gotham into just another city makes the whole idea seem ridiculous. We're talking about a man who dresses up as a f***ing bat.
It only works in the context of a surreal gothic dream-like environment, surrounded by other fantastical characters.
I see the 21st century 'gritty realism' movement as largely a failure. It's only really worked in realistic dramas such as The Wire. In the fantastical only the first 3 or 4 seasons of GOT pulled it off, before it descended into Hollywood-ised nonsense.
Fantasy cinema needs to rediscover its soul.
I dunno I think you can pull off both
@kwayneboy1524 Any examples of it being successfully done?
@@KoreMike13 successful is a subjective term here seeing how it was arguably done successfully with the Nolanverse.
But other examples I can give is the Arkhamverse which is both fantastical but grounded. It's kept in a more realistic in the sense that Gotham looks like an actual city that's more so in the process of being modernized.
Characters like Robin aren't teenagers(Tim is at least 19 to 22) who dress up in bright colors but are designed like MMA fighters wearing more dark clothing. I could go on and on.
Gotham 1919 which is a universe set 1919 to 1939 that shows Batman in a more believable era where he could exist at his prime. Characters like Ivy and Clayface are shown to be normal humans and much more down to earth crimes, Ivy is a black widow and Clayface is a serial killer who's crimes are meant to draw out Batman for his revenge.
But characters like Mister Freeze and Man-Bat exist with their powers but it's left a mystery of how they got them.
Arrow exists in a more grounded world but still has metahumans, Immortal madmen and ect. But it's still written in a much more believable way that highlights Oliver is just a human going up against things that exist in the world but are still fantastical.
To be fair on BvS Batman's arc in that movie is him getting more violent and Alfred calling him out on it. "New rules, sir?"
And also how the way Snyder borrowed Nolan’s military weaponry angle, and then proceeded to amp up the brutality was part of the deconstruction. Snyder even said how Nolan’s Batman was just “cool”. I think he was trying to take what Nolan presented uncritically as cool, and present it as violent and fucked up on purpose.
People who think Snyder’s deconstruction approach was all wrong won’t get argument from me, but they can’t argue it wasn’t the intention!
I think the Arkham series balances well the more fantastical elements of Batman with a grounded perspective.
The Batman cannot ever be a realistic hero, because if so it would look ridiculous.
The takeaway here and in the comments is that people mostly agree on what Batman should be like and nobody's done it yet in live action.
as someone who loves the dark knight trilogy
TRUE
Yea sure u do😂
@StraightEdgeKnight19 Liking something doesn't mean thinking everything about it is perfect.
@@StraightEdgeKnight19 nobody asked
I have an argument that The Dark Knight isn't just over-hyped and not deserving of its praise, but it's not even a Batman movie.
As someone who adores Batman and his rogues I missed when Batman villains were just allowed to be
Like I want Batman to go up his villains when they have petty human motivations
His villains are the best when their motivation are understandable even if we disagree with them
Like can’t the Mad Hatter be a creepy stalker and criminal not what the more “grounded” version makes him
Hell Joker was allowed to be fun without a grand scheme
Good ideas for TV not for Film
TV and film are two different mediums with different rules
Meanwhile here I am never having seen the Nolan trilogy ever lmao.
To me, the Arkham Games are what got me into Batman, and from there it's Grep Capullo and Scott Snyders stories (court of owls, death of the family, zero year) as well as comics like Dark Knight Returns and Killing Joke that really made me fall in love with the character and the universe of gotham as a setting sort of separate from the DC universe as a whole (even tho some of the best batman stories like DK Returns and Hush involve other JL members).
I have noticed in the clips that Burton's Batman movies used 35mm films, and that made them even more retro.
35mm was the standard until like the mid 2000s, so not that much more retro than the schumacher ones, in that specific sense (though they do look dirtier at every level).
i like the 2019 joker film as it's own movie but it was always not really a joker movie which i don't think wb really understood
I remember the "batman" world before Nolan. Sure, there was the batman show (which in Europe didn't get so much attention) but adults always kept ignoring the character, most people still considered it as a character for kids. After the batman and robin fiasco very few people took the character seriously. Adults were condescendent towards Batman.
Then Nolan brought his first batman and everything changed. I remember like yesterday, how people stopped showing those condescendent smiles when talking about it, now I could actually have a conversation with adult people about Batman. Serious conversations. It's so CRAZY.
I think Nolan's trilogy SAVED the character in many ways. You say that it hurt the character because it became a shadow that limited the scope of the related art; that's bullshit. Batman is supposed to be dark, serious, brutal. It didn't limited the character, it FOCUSED the character. The way it should.
And great material has come to Batman since then. The arkham games were great, Ben Affleck was a great batman in the wrong movies, but then we got Joker, a very decent movie, the Batman (with the twilight guy), which was also very good. Even the injustice games were connected to the spirit of the nolan's trilogy and those games were great (other than some problems with the monetization in the second game).
And we even got great comedic material inspired by the tone of Nolan. The lego batman movie for example, was great. Or the teen titans go to the movies (the show was meh but that movie was very good).
So I see this video as an interesting take, but a wrong take nonetheless.
Is batman supposed to be serious dark brutal?
Don't get me wrong. That is indeed a big part of him.
But it's hardly the only one and I even hesitate to say it's the biggest. He IS part of the dynamic duo. He IS a Superfriend. He IS a member of the justice league that battles fantasy monsters and cartoony villains
the Nolan movies are grounded. Scarecrow is just a dude with a bag and his gas. Not a very theatrical horror freak show.
Ra's is just a dude with a secret organization. Not a nigh immortal leader of basically global illuminati that deals with magic and shit
Joker and 2 face are fine actually lol.
Bane had like no venom? That's a core part of his. Talia shares problems with Ra's but at least she isn't the demon himself
And now The Batman is following suit. And they took all the sauce away from Riddler. The smarmy ass that likes to dress up full of question marks
The Arkham games are better adaptations on what Batman "should" look like. There is seriousness in there yes. But there is also the fun comic book tint rather than trying to go for "realistic" and taking away the iconic elements of characters they are adapting
At the core of it all we are looking at a dude in a bat suit. There is already an inherent silliness to that concept and adaptations need to embrace that. After Nolan, a lot of it seems to shy away from it.
Robin has been with Batman for longer than the Joker has existed! How is it we only got like 2 live action movies of him!
You are right though that Nolan did revitalize batman in the eyes of the mainstream... but did it revitalize BATMAN. THE character people love? or something that looks like him?
Yeah but lego batman and Brave and the bold >>>>>>>
It is rather funny how audiences today look at batman compared to 20 years ago
@@MILDMONSTER1234 Brave And The Bold deserves more love.
@@WalkmanWillWalkAllOverYouI don't care about brave and bolt such a trash show
@@АлексейМакеев-ю6б You cared enough to comment my guy.
While I did enjoy The Batman it really bothers me that the Riddler is the villain, just because the motivations and actions never really feel like the Riddler. It really should've been Anarchy instead.
Ehh. Anarky is a very obscure Batman villain. It makes a lot more sense to take a very well known villain with an interesting gimmick and just mix in some elements of other characters to fit the story they want to tell
I see it more as an origin story. The Riddler only begun hating Batman after realizing his delusional view on his idol doesn't agree with him and loathed him. After The Batman, he will most likely became the Riddler we usually knows
This is also part of it. The Arkham scene between Riddler and Batman is SO important because it’s the stage for their classic relationship moving forward. Eddie realizing him and Bats are NOT friends, but also, Eddie realizing he essentially outsmarted Batman since he didn’t about the plan to flood Gotham. This is a big moment because this is where we first see him with that really annoying and pompous attitude towards Bats.
Also, I would at The Batman nailed Riddler’s personality for the most part.
I want a movie with the theatrical Riddler instead of gimp mask Riddler. Jim Carey was a terrible Riddler because he played him as if he was the Joker
The Snyder Batman actually just explicitly kills, but I will say that the whole "Batman doesn't kill but has these big guns" thing is a big problem I have with The Dark Knight Returns. That's what inspired a lot of Batman Begins et al, and he uses a tank that shoots huge ass "rubber bullets", but even normal sized rubber bullets can kill; they'll especially kill when they're fist sized slugs and knocking people out in the fucking mud.
I think we got a small tease of Batman in James Gunn's DCU, i think from creature commandos? I haven't watched it but i recall hearing about it. And he apparently has the white comic accurate eyes, which is exciting.
My biggest issue is that the films brought on this realism tide to Batman media, and now people ignore what the villains are supposed to represent and only talk about how unrealistic stuff is. The metaphor's are being ignored in favour of trying to outsmart the source material.
I feel the grounded aspect of the Nolan movies only really worked well in those three movies. Comic Batman should feel like a character who can also share a universe with super-powered heroes, like Superman without either feeling out of place or forced.
Studios took the wrong lessons from Nolan's trilogy
Instead of thinking, "Hey, look when a good writer and director have the creative freedom to faithfully adapt the character and show the world why said character is great, its successful and people love it."
They think "Wow a dark realistic movie, this sells lets turn all of characters into that"
I’m worried with The Batman deleted scene this Joker trend is continuing in that version.