The "Book of the New Sun" is not chaotic at all. The trick is discovering the underlying structure (and yes, there is one...people have gotten doctorates dissecting these books). The other trap to avoid is thinking that Wolfe made up any words...every word he uses already exists, no matter how obscure; he was just ana amazing researcher.
People miss the point of the works: they are a visual artists' attempt at storytelling in which he doesn't let you decide what a scene might look like, he's going to tell you EXACTLY what he wants you to see. The style is the purpose..."The days wear out the months and the months wear out the years, and a flux of moments, like an unquiet tide, eats at the black coast of futurity."
@@FunFantasyBooks Titus Groan is a strange novel to say the least. It's the height of English eccentricity. Marvelously inventive, but crazy all the same. If I told you the characters are a little weird, it would be a gross understatement. The 76th Earl of Gormenghast thinks he is an owl, and his wife, the Countess Gertrude, has birds nesting in her hair. Everything seems eccentric, but don’t be fooled. There is a cruel sense of reality that seeps through the farcical, frightening antics in the mad castle of Gormenghast. You should know too, that Mervyn Peake suffered greatly with his mental health, and died at the age of 57 from dementia.
I’m glad you liked Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell! If you do keep reading, definitely take your time. I feel like each chapter tells a satisfying story so it’s easy to take breaks along the way.
Man, I can't argue with your picks at all. The 8 of these I've read were indeed some of the most challenging books I've read, but also some of the most rewarding. Except for Ourouboros and New Sun, the first one the prose was just too archaic for me and the second went clean over my head, I definitely read it when I wasn't ready mentally. I'll need to re-read it in the future when I'm better equipped to dive into what it's doing. Awesome list!
@@FunFantasyBooks Thanks, lol, I haven't read the Odyssey or House of Leaves as yet, both are on the neverending TBR though. Milorad Pavic's Dictionary of the Khazars is probably the next challenging book I'm going to pick up, though.
How would you compare it to ASOIAF and the Silmarillion? I'm at the moment reading TWoT, I'm in book 6, I'm enjoying it, but I wouldn't say it is complex to read. I'm asking because at some point I want to read Malazan, but I always hear that it is very complex, but I'm not sure I know what does people mean by that...
@@SimplementInefable similar to WoT and ASOIAF in terms of quantity of characters and places to keep track of. Writing style is much less handholding-you're often shown scenes and conversations without having the context to place them, but you'll get that context as you read. It's kind of like a puzzle that the author expects you to be actively piecing together. The prose is also a little more wordy and poetic than those series, probably closer to Tolkien.
@SimplementInefable for context I read all of asoiaf, 7 books of Wheel, and I'm currently in 2nd book of Malazan. I saw ASOIAF tv adaptation before reading, so it was easy to follow, and I'll leave it out of consideration. Wheel is easier to follow, especially with the first 3 books, because it's a lot of coming from point A to point B. WoT has lots of characters to follow and has some moments that you have to remember for the future (Bors appears in book 2 prologue and then comes back in later books, for example. Malazan is similar when it comes to character quantity but is harder to follow between books as there are changes in locations and characters. Book 2 is a different story than book 1, then comes book 3, which follows book 1 and book 4 follows book 2 story, etc. You have to remember events and characters. Structure reminds me of a feast for crows and dance with dragons. You never have full sight, and context for events is built after you actually see it. Knowing other big fantasy series kind of prepares you for Malazan, but be sure it's the most focus consuming to follow, totally worth it tho
@@Greenslime300 it has 350~ POVs. WoT has 140~. And Malazan does uses the POVs not just for a moment they are there as useless characters like WoT (for example slog). WoT has in total 1400 named characters but most of it nothing but names… you can forget it on the next page. Malazan has 600~ and most of them significant. That’s the difference. ASOIAF is far from this. Malazan has the biggest map in published fantasy, literally as big as Earth itself and it uses different continents, while WoT uses “Randland” mostly, that’s part of a continent, and we have a very brief part on the other continent just to fight and that’s all, nothing to see. In the main series Malazan uses 3 continents. The other parts will use others. As world building only Middle-Earth has something to rival with Malazan. WoT is just mentioning the past, ASOIAF not bad, GRRM is prob had the idea from Tolkien but not on the same level.
Malazan Book of the Fallen is phenomenal. The only problem is the shear number of characters in each book and those that span acoss one or more books. However, Erikson brings to life each of these characters to such an unbelievable level that it is like watching a movie. Just ask anyone who has read the series who their favorite character is. If it is not Kruppe then they are insane! If it is not Shadowthrone, then they are insane! If it is not Cotillion (the Rope), then they are insane! Quick Ben? Whiskeyjack? Anamonder Rake? Mael? No, no, it is Tehol! Arguably INSANE!
Never in my entire life have I read such fascinating fantasy series as Malazan Book of The Fallen! It's unimaginable fantasy! You get hooked since page 1!
I haven't read The Book of the New Sun, but I read the novella The Fifth Head of Cerberus. I had to immediately re-read it and it's just so deep. There's an entire podcast talking about the 50 page novella and there's probably still more to talk about.
I LOVED this book challenge! I'm so excited to hear your thoughts if you finish Gardens of the Moon. Just FYI, there are heavy trigger warnings from book 2 on. Great video! 😊
The writer that challenged my vocabulary like no other was John Gardner. “Grendel” was the first book of his that I read. That wasn’t too bad, but his more modern stories were chock full of words I had never seen before, so a dictionary was necessary.
I'm so excited you're reading Jonathan Strange and Mister Norrell! 🥰 It's one of my all-time favourites, I'm so happy to see it's getting more love on Booktube. The BBC adaptation is lovely too.
I read house of leaves and while I loved the premise the layout of footnotes and text didn’t give me the feeling of descending into madness so much as descending into annoyance. People say it could never be made into a movie and I think that’s true but I think it could be a tv show.
I am on book 6 of Malazan and enjoying it. In terms of remembering characters, It doesn't help that the same characters have different names in later books or different groups have different names for the same character. I might have taken a step back from that if I was writing it, but then I'm not Steven Erikson. It definitely works your reader muscles, and who doesn't enjoy a good work out.
I'm reading the second book in the Malazan series and IMO it's the writing style that makes them complex. When I read the opening chapters, it feels like I accidently opened to the middle of the book. The author talks about things as if the reader should know what they are when they haven't been explained yet. Fortunately, I found the story in the first book got clearer as I progressed. Jonathan Strange is a very hard read for me. I've tried checking it out from the library three times but it's never enough time to finish the book.
it is really great, I am half way through (Book-wise, not word count-wise). the only other series that I have read is LotR. Not as hard as people make it out to be
I read The Worm Ouroboros when I was 18 or 19. Loved it! Have read it several times since then-alas, I no longer have my copy, or the subsequent book A Fish Dinner in Memison. I never read the third book. Having read all of the Icelandic Sagas, as well as other period pieces, I did not find the language difficult. Full disclosure-I read Edgar Allan Poe at the age of 8, so I guess I’m an outlier.
Read all these except for The House of Leaves, which I will check out on my next visit to Powell's City of Books. The Silmarillion to me was not that difficult to follow. Maybe because I read a lot of King James Bible and Norse mythology stuff when I was younger. It felt familiar somehow. Malazan is my favorite series, despite its sometimes (to me) self-indulgence by the author in going on tangents. The plethora of characters is daunting but also challenging and rewarding. Of course there are the oversized, epic characters, but also one gets to know and care for the minor characters, the foot soldiers. The moral quandaries are sharp and the emotional depths exquisite and at times tearful. And the humor is always a bit dry and unexpected.
Read Silmarillion and The Odyssey without issue. Heard of The Devine Comedy. Never heard of the rest. Started reading Faust recently. Have yet to get into its rhythm but I've only been able to find time for a couple pages.
Out of the ones mentioned I only finished Malazan and Inferno of the Divine Comedy. The thing about the Divine comedy is you should get one witha good translation + one with good footnotes. I genuinely enjoyed it without delving into the notes in depth when I was in high school.
I'm so glad the ones I plan to read are the ones you found to be easier and more compelling (Malazan, Jonathan Strange and The Once and Future King)! I'm an Iliad > Odyssey girl, but I know that finding the right translation can make or break the poems! I've tried reading them in Italian for years but only succeeded with the Fagles translation, which prefers clarity over poetry. Though of course EPIC The Musical is my favorite way of consuming that story 😁
Hahaha epic being a driver for me to read the Odyssey says a lot already about me haha! I really want to pick up Jonathan Strange soon! Thank you always for your comment 💕
The Odyssey a musical! When, where? I wanted to be able to go to a suburban school so I could study Greek, but was unable to. Love Homer, Thucydides and the dramatists.
I have read several of these books and loved a few and hated others. There is a very fine line between "complex" and "tedious" that is of course mostly subjective, but I think often there is a tendency to give too much credit in some of these situations. Often critics, readers, booktubers will try to take the high road when describing books like this as "complex", "difficult read", "odd prose", "difficult pacing", etc etc....it is perfectly ok to call it like you see it; sometimes these books are not necessarily "complex" but are just simply poorly written and tedious.
Treat the Sil as a bunch of short stories on Middle Earth lore. I found myself sometimes marveling at the prose in New Sun and not paying attention to the story. He also tells you how the series ends fairly early on. Its a lot of symbolism of symbolism but can be fun trying to figure out what things Severian is describing. Have read the first page of Titis Groan several times and each time 'not today'. Someday... Malazan becomes complex due to the sheer scale and scope. Lots of characters, lots of places, and lots of history. Events can be foreshadowded or called back to 3 books away. But there are multiple epic and heartwrenching scenes.
Most difficult book I’ve (attempted to) read was Ulysses by James Joyce. To this day I haven’t been able to finish it. The Devine Comedy is actually one of my favorites of all time, definitely top 10 in my list, but I do agree reading it demands a certain amount of knowledge and patience from the reader. The footnotes for sure at the very least double the amount of time it would take to finish it, but the thing is, without them, you’d quit midway through Hell, because who has the time to read for hrs about people you don’t know nor understand why they ended up buried all the way to their necks, or are walking with their heads looking backwards. Malazan is definitely in my list, and as soon as I finish my hitchhiking journey through the galaxy, it’s Malazan time baby!
Since The Silmarillion was published, Christopher Tolkien published expanded (and more or less complete) versions of some of the Silmarillion stories (The Children of Húrin, Beren and Lúthien, and The Fall of Gondolin). I would recommend reading those first (especially Húrin and Gondolin).
@@FunFantasyBooks Be aware they are even less finished works than The Silmarillion itself. The Children of Húrin being the most finished, despite being cobbled together from two different versions. The other two are really just drafts of each story, lacking any polish of a finalized work.
Malazan is great so far on book 4 and I haven’t run into the issues there is a giant shift from book 1 to 2 but so far some of the best epic fantasy I have read
The only title on this list I haven't read (or tried to read in the case of Susanna Clarke) is House of Leaves, so I'm going to have to look into that one, and many are on my list of favorites, esp. The Worm Ourobouros and The Book of the New Sun, both of which I first read as a teen. Just a few more candidates for "hard" books as you appear to be defining them: R. Scott Bakker's The Prince of Nothing and The Aspect-Emperor series (starting with The Darkness That Comes Before). It's impossible to summarize in a comment but it's a brilliant epic that questions the nature of reality & creates a world that's nearly as complex as Tolkien's Middle-earth. In the Arthurian vein, I would recommend Clemence Housman's The Life of Sir Aglovale de Galis, which is the tale of the tragic life of King Pellinore's son. And then there's A.A. Attanasio's Arthor series (starting with The Dragon and The Unicorn). I've only found your channel recently but I'm enjoying the videos. Keep up the good work.
I took the challenge of reading Malazan last year. It was difficult but it's all worth it. It changed me as a person. If you're still half decided, just make it a goal to finish up to Book 3: Memories of Ice. From there, you can decide if you wish to continue to see the end.
Great video. Makes we want to go back and give 'Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrel' another try. Regarding Gene Wolfe's 'Book of the New Sun', I think many readers get lost in it by over-emphasizing the 'unreliable narrator' theme, and somewhere I've seen Wolfe downplay 'unreliable narrator' when it comes to 'Book of the New Sun'. To me, the places where he is unreliable are understandable (e.g., omission at first of a physical relationship with Thecla). I DON'T think 'unreliable narrator' is of great importance in understanding the plot, especially compared to other stuff that's going on. What's really cool about 'The Book of the New Sun' - and why people feel the need to read it at least twice - is all the significant clues that Wolfe leaves hiding in plain sight. When you finally realize what's going on and start looking back on the clues you missed, you can't help but re-read. Another great book by Wolfe that I've heard Gaiman express tremendous appreciation for is 'Peace'. Though a single short novel, it may be even more difficult in some ways than 'The Book of the New Sun', but I think it's his most beautifully written piece of fiction and highly rewarding. Thanks again for a great video!
Didn't expect hard fantasy books will coming on this channel. You mentioned many fantasy books which are not standard fantasy books for readers. You might check Perdido Street Station and Embassytown by China Mieville, Ice by Anna Kavan, the second apocalypse by R. Scott Bakker, The dying Earth by Jake Vance. Those fantasy books aren’t archaic writing but with flowery writing or the structure of the stories are obscure to readers. English also is not my first language so that I understand your caution reading them.
I have been reading and rereading the Tolkien books for a long time and Book of the New Sun and Malazan are a couple of my favorites, personally I did not find them hard to read at all, another you might try if you have not yet is Prince of Nothing and Aspect Emperor by R. Scot Bakker, very Grimdark but an amazing story and well written, another really good one from Gene Wolfe is the Soldier series, starting with Soldier of the Mist, set in ancient Greece
There are some books, and this seems is becoming less and less common, that are designed to be re readable. The Worm Ouroboros is one of those, if you read it once, you will get the gist of it, the conflict is not particularly complicated, but every time you re read it, you will get a new layer of complexity. Those are the kinds of books that end up becoming true classics in the sense that generation after generation goes back to them.
Always loved Homer's books. I've read a lot on the Arthur mythos, mainly nonfiction, but I have yet to read The Once and Future King. I recently started Stephen Lawhead's version of Arthur, Pendragon Cycle. It's very detailed and dense series - maybe like the Robert Jordan version of Arthur - so I haven't quite decided if I like it yet or not.
Wow for a second I thought I was looking at Brandi Passante from Storage Wars lol. My GF read House of Leaves and she liked it. I still have to start, been on a Pirate thing lately. (more history based not fantasy, although a good fantasy about Anne Bonney would rock.)
My advice to anyone reading the Worm Ouroboros would be to take it like poetry more than a prose adventure. Read it like you would read Hamlet, for how cool everything sounds. It is ok to read something you do not understand, those are often the most enriching reading experiences. Now, I think the main difficuty for the contemporary reader of the Worm Ouroboros is that it is the apex of the "show don't tell", the narrator never goes into a character's head, everything is perceived as if you were by the narrator's side seeing everything. Contemporary genre fiction is kind of the opposite, super active narrators explaining how characters are feeling
I feel like with Malazan it's not always super complex, some of the stories can be pretty straight forward. But there are some parts that can get pretty freaky and arcane.
Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrel actually is a good book but you have to be patience because it is the kind of story that starts slowly and Malazan's problem comes from the fact that 1. it has many characters and 2. the author provokes the reader to think and link the points yourself without spooning the reader
I have been a long time fan of The Odyssey ever since middle school, having read three translations (and any number of graphic novels). It's not difficult for me to read, but the translation does matter. However, I find a lot of other works (typically those written during the Restoration and 18th Century England) to be much harder to figure out. I have tried to read Gormenghast and I will finish it one day, but that one is a struggle. However, I've heard it's worth it.
Although you could probably get away with skipping the footnotes in Johnathan Strange & Mr. Norrel I would not recommend it. The whole book is about the discovery of magic and most, if not all, of the footnotes are passages from the books that they are referencing. As a person with English also as my second language trying to read Ghormenghast felt like I didn't know anything about the language all over again. Sat with a dictionary and still only made it a few chapters in.
I read the house of leaves, it was great. I just love books like this, in the sense that you might not fully understand it to where when you read it again, it is almost like you are reading it for the first time!!
Don't fully agree with what you classify as difficult, but BotNS is without doubt one of the best books ever written, irrespective of genre. An incredible, rich, deep book with the most wonderful prose. Wolfe was a master.
I don't like books that make me work so hard to understand them. I've read the Simarillion, but it's more like a collection of loosely related stories. Tolkien fans get more insight. I tried to read Worm Ourobolus?, but I hated it immediately so I only read a few pages. Most of the others I've never heard of except "The Odyssey" and I read mythology books instead. Difficult books take away from the story and I personally see them as examples of bad writing. I'll take Hemingway before any of the others. The simplest and most compact writing styles are the best.
I felt as a start Gardens of the Moon was unnecessarily complicated. I'm sure I'll try again. The The Baroque Cycle by Neal Stephenson is a lot to take in.
Currently on my second read through of Malazan and it feels like I'm just catching up on parts i didn't understand fully the first time, The silmarillion i tried multiple times to read and could never get through the first few pages.
I read The Worm Ouroboros because it was published well before LOTR. The language was archaic when it was published, and makes even drier reading today. It doesn't live up to the greats of Elizabethan literature in the slightest, towards whom Edison had such large pretensions. Added to that, the plot was convoluted, but actually rather simple, just rambled about in such flowery affected prose. It owes more to the Arabian Nights than either Dunsany or William Morris. The characters were awful, yet assumed to be and extolled as great and wonderful and wise. That's for the reader to work out, and this reader thought it was BS. I don't understand how JRRT thought so much of it, because on reflection, it looks like he set out to do the opposite in LOTR to all the things found in The Worm. Don't read the rest of it, it doesn't get better.
Malazan is over exaggerated. As storytube - channel - tells too it’s not that hard to read. Of course it’s not a short time. 10 books. When was it short? Wheel of Time is long, Stormlight gets longer by the minute. But reading Malazan? It’s changing your perspective. Yes, it has many POVs. It has a different approach on how to tell a story. So? Merphy Napier is bad in remembering things and yet she loves it. 😂 Yea, there is a Wiki to it, but we didn’t use it back then so it’s proof that it’s not necessary. Izzy reads it now without any help and he just loves it as it is. 1.5 weeks, maybe 2 / book (and he reads an other book too parallel). Critical Dragon agrees too that “confusing” is very different from this take.
I have gardens of the moon on my Tbr cart. . . And I’m scared to read it. And I read the odyssey for fun and ran through the once and future king when I was in freaking middle school
Not necessarily fantasy but if you want complex: Cormac McCarthy, Blindsight by Peter Watts, The Hyperion Cantos and the Ilium series by Dan Simmons (so many ideas), Dostoevsky, Moby Dick. These guys were in their own worlds lol
Small correction: you mentioned that the Worm Ouroboros was released at the same moment as Lord of the Rings, but that's not correct. This one was published in 1922 already, so roughly 30 years earlier. I read that few years back, such a strange experience as a non native English speaker...
Hola, sabes si los libros de The Witcher son mejores en español o en inglés? He oído que la traducción en inglés no es muy buena y no sé si leérmelos en español (Me da igual en qué leérmelos)
Hola!! Pues no sabría decirte!! En este caso yo te diría de leerlos entonces en español! Al no ser inglés el idioma original del autor, no creo que ganes mucho con el inglés!
House of Leaves is one of my favorite books that i may never read again. I love ergodic lit and horror novels, but the crass content is off putting to me these days. But it's a good ride
Silmarilion is more a History book about Middle Earth. For me it was borring because it was sooo monotone. I still have the copy🤔True, no plot, just "all started with" and than and than and than 😮💨
Yeah, that’s definitely how it felt like! I get that if you are super knowledgeable about the world, then this is great because it gives you so much! But for me it was like “oh aha aha, I need to lay down now”
I personally didn't find it boring or difficult to read, just read it like any other novel and loved getting little more of the history and worldbuilding of middle-earth after i had read the hobbit and lotr. But i also am a history nerd that read non-fiction history books, so that's probably why its structure didn't bother me.
you are like something out of imagination. that being said, 50 pages isnt enough to get anything really out of anything you have listed here. i wish youd have read them all fully. hard to believe you are real
What about The Faerie Queene? It's the bane of many English student's existence. The Orlando Furioso is as bad, but not required reading. For more recent books I might pick on Little, Big. For impenetrable in a bad way, The Night Land.
Reading the Comedy without a *very* good commentary is a wasted effort, even if you are reading it translated and not in its original form, imo! Too many references that are lost otherwise if you are not very familiar with italian middle-age history, culture and influences (like the role that Virgil had within intellectual circles at the time in your example) and how they changed and evolved through time (even when speaking just about latin authors!)
@@FunFantasyBooks I mean, there's a reason why it's one of the most discussed and commented work ever ;) Even the opening, which is pretty straightforward (Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita, mi ritrovai per una selva oscura, che la dritta via era smarrita) would be better understood knowing that Dante puts the start of the Comedy around Easter 1300, when he was 35 (70 being a biblical reference as the lenght of life), and knowing why 1300 is a particularly important year in Dante's political life (and the Comedy is as much - if not more - a political based work than a religious one). Personally, I would think reading the Comedy without external help to understand the context is like 1000000/10 on the difficulty scale lol
Malazan is undefeated on these types of lists
The "Book of the New Sun" is not chaotic at all. The trick is discovering the underlying structure (and yes, there is one...people have gotten doctorates dissecting these books). The other trap to avoid is thinking that Wolfe made up any words...every word he uses already exists, no matter how obscure; he was just ana amazing researcher.
There are three Gormenghast novels: 1. Titus Groan 2. Gormenghast 3. Titus Alone. Simply phenomenal. I absolutely loved the trilogy.
I only read the first chapters of Titus and was definitely something 🤣
People miss the point of the works: they are a visual artists' attempt at storytelling in which he doesn't let you decide what a scene might look like, he's going to tell you EXACTLY what he wants you to see. The style is the purpose..."The days wear out the months and the months wear out the years, and a flux of moments, like an unquiet tide, eats at the black coast of futurity."
@@FunFantasyBooks Titus Groan is a strange novel to say the least. It's the height of English eccentricity. Marvelously inventive, but crazy all the same. If I told you the characters are a little weird, it would be a gross understatement. The 76th Earl of Gormenghast thinks he is an owl, and his wife, the Countess Gertrude, has birds nesting in her hair. Everything seems eccentric, but don’t be fooled. There is a cruel sense of reality that seeps through the farcical, frightening antics in the mad castle of Gormenghast. You should know too, that Mervyn Peake suffered greatly with his mental health, and died at the age of 57 from dementia.
I’m glad you liked Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell! If you do keep reading, definitely take your time. I feel like each chapter tells a satisfying story so it’s easy to take breaks along the way.
Oh that’s so awesome to read! I didn’t feel that with the chapters I read so far; but I will keep it in mind! 100% a story I will be going back soon 🥹
Man, I can't argue with your picks at all. The 8 of these I've read were indeed some of the most challenging books I've read, but also some of the most rewarding. Except for Ourouboros and New Sun, the first one the prose was just too archaic for me and the second went clean over my head, I definitely read it when I wasn't ready mentally. I'll need to re-read it in the future when I'm better equipped to dive into what it's doing. Awesome list!
Hahaha man I understand! I am already in awe that you read 8 of these! My brain was melting 🫠
@@FunFantasyBooks Thanks, lol, I haven't read the Odyssey or House of Leaves as yet, both are on the neverending TBR though. Milorad Pavic's Dictionary of the Khazars is probably the next challenging book I'm going to pick up, though.
If u got through Wheel of Time, then Malazan is a step up in complexity, but it's nothing to be scared of
How would you compare it to ASOIAF and the Silmarillion? I'm at the moment reading TWoT, I'm in book 6, I'm enjoying it, but I wouldn't say it is complex to read. I'm asking because at some point I want to read Malazan, but I always hear that it is very complex, but I'm not sure I know what does people mean by that...
@@SimplementInefable similar to WoT and ASOIAF in terms of quantity of characters and places to keep track of. Writing style is much less handholding-you're often shown scenes and conversations without having the context to place them, but you'll get that context as you read. It's kind of like a puzzle that the author expects you to be actively piecing together. The prose is also a little more wordy and poetic than those series, probably closer to Tolkien.
@@Greenslime300 thankyou! I needed that comparison. I'll be checking it out for sure when I'm done with TWoT
@SimplementInefable for context I read all of asoiaf, 7 books of Wheel, and I'm currently in 2nd book of Malazan. I saw ASOIAF tv adaptation before reading, so it was easy to follow, and I'll leave it out of consideration. Wheel is easier to follow, especially with the first 3 books, because it's a lot of coming from point A to point B. WoT has lots of characters to follow and has some moments that you have to remember for the future (Bors appears in book 2 prologue and then comes back in later books, for example.
Malazan is similar when it comes to character quantity but is harder to follow between books as there are changes in locations and characters. Book 2 is a different story than book 1, then comes book 3, which follows book 1 and book 4 follows book 2 story, etc. You have to remember events and characters. Structure reminds me of a feast for crows and dance with dragons. You never have full sight, and context for events is built after you actually see it. Knowing other big fantasy series kind of prepares you for Malazan, but be sure it's the most focus consuming to follow, totally worth it tho
@@Greenslime300 it has 350~ POVs. WoT has 140~. And Malazan does uses the POVs not just for a moment they are there as useless characters like WoT (for example slog). WoT has in total 1400 named characters but most of it nothing but names… you can forget it on the next page. Malazan has 600~ and most of them significant. That’s the difference. ASOIAF is far from this. Malazan has the biggest map in published fantasy, literally as big as Earth itself and it uses different continents, while WoT uses “Randland” mostly, that’s part of a continent, and we have a very brief part on the other continent just to fight and that’s all, nothing to see. In the main series Malazan uses 3 continents. The other parts will use others. As world building only Middle-Earth has something to rival with Malazan. WoT is just mentioning the past, ASOIAF not bad, GRRM is prob had the idea from Tolkien but not on the same level.
This was an amazing video Isa! I really appreciate that knowing that you find some stuff hard to read, makes me feel understood. Thank you :)
Awww Ana! Thank you!
Malazan Book of the Fallen is phenomenal. The only problem is the shear number of characters in each book and those that span acoss one or more books. However, Erikson brings to life each of these characters to such an unbelievable level that it is like watching a movie. Just ask anyone who has read the series who their favorite character is. If it is not Kruppe then they are insane! If it is not Shadowthrone, then they are insane! If it is not Cotillion (the Rope), then they are insane! Quick Ben? Whiskeyjack? Anamonder Rake? Mael? No, no, it is Tehol! Arguably INSANE!
Never in my entire life have I read such fascinating fantasy series as Malazan Book of The Fallen! It's unimaginable fantasy! You get hooked since page 1!
I haven't read The Book of the New Sun, but I read the novella The Fifth Head of Cerberus. I had to immediately re-read it and it's just so deep. There's an entire podcast talking about the 50 page novella and there's probably still more to talk about.
I LOVED this book challenge! I'm so excited to hear your thoughts if you finish Gardens of the Moon. Just FYI, there are heavy trigger warnings from book 2 on. Great video! 😊
Thank you Johanna!! Oh good to know! I wasn’t aware of the trigger warnings!
The writer that challenged my vocabulary like no other was John Gardner. “Grendel” was the first book of his that I read. That wasn’t too bad, but his more modern stories were chock full of words I had never seen before, so a dictionary was necessary.
I had to read The Odyssey in high school - loved it! Great video.
I'm so excited you're reading Jonathan Strange and Mister Norrell! 🥰 It's one of my all-time favourites, I'm so happy to see it's getting more love on Booktube. The BBC adaptation is lovely too.
I read house of leaves and while I loved the premise the layout of footnotes and text didn’t give me the feeling of descending into madness so much as descending into annoyance. People say it could never be made into a movie and I think that’s true but I think it could be a tv show.
This was a fantastic video Isa!
I am on book 6 of Malazan and enjoying it. In terms of remembering characters, It doesn't help that the same characters have different names in later books or different groups have different names for the same character. I might have taken a step back from that if I was writing it, but then I'm not Steven Erikson. It definitely works your reader muscles, and who doesn't enjoy a good work out.
Love, love, LOVE Gene Wolfe! Severian is one of my favorite characters.
I'm reading the second book in the Malazan series and IMO it's the writing style that makes them complex. When I read the opening chapters, it feels like I accidently opened to the middle of the book. The author talks about things as if the reader should know what they are when they haven't been explained yet. Fortunately, I found the story in the first book got clearer as I progressed.
Jonathan Strange is a very hard read for me. I've tried checking it out from the library three times but it's never enough time to finish the book.
Malazan is so intimidating! But I hope to tackle it someday.
It’s not this hard.
Malazan is probably my favorite fantasy.
@@shardator your username is very interesting.
it is really great, I am half way through (Book-wise, not word count-wise). the only other series that I have read is LotR. Not as hard as people make it out to be
Definitely a series I will be picking up soon!
I read The Worm Ouroboros when I was 18 or 19. Loved it! Have read it several times since then-alas, I no longer have my copy, or the subsequent book A Fish Dinner in Memison. I never read the third book. Having read all of the Icelandic Sagas, as well as other period pieces, I did not find the language difficult. Full disclosure-I read Edgar Allan Poe at the age of 8, so I guess I’m an outlier.
Read all these except for The House of Leaves, which I will check out on my next visit to Powell's City of Books. The Silmarillion to me was not that difficult to follow. Maybe because I read a lot of King James Bible and Norse mythology stuff when I was younger. It felt familiar somehow. Malazan is my favorite series, despite its sometimes (to me) self-indulgence by the author in going on tangents. The plethora of characters is daunting but also challenging and rewarding. Of course there are the oversized, epic characters, but also one gets to know and care for the minor characters, the foot soldiers. The moral quandaries are sharp and the emotional depths exquisite and at times tearful. And the humor is always a bit dry and unexpected.
Read Silmarillion and The Odyssey without issue. Heard of The Devine Comedy. Never heard of the rest. Started reading Faust recently. Have yet to get into its rhythm but I've only been able to find time for a couple pages.
I read "Worm" a while back but didn't finish it. Maybe I will have to try it again.
I’m curios to read a couple of books you mentioned. I read Silmarillion only from your list though I didn’t find it difficult to be honest.
Out of the ones mentioned I only finished Malazan and Inferno of the Divine Comedy. The thing about the Divine comedy is you should get one witha good translation + one with good footnotes. I genuinely enjoyed it without delving into the notes in depth when I was in high school.
The only problem with watching other book tubers channels is that is only increases the tbr. Hope you have a great reading summer.
I'm so glad the ones I plan to read are the ones you found to be easier and more compelling (Malazan, Jonathan Strange and The Once and Future King)!
I'm an Iliad > Odyssey girl, but I know that finding the right translation can make or break the poems! I've tried reading them in Italian for years but only succeeded with the Fagles translation, which prefers clarity over poetry. Though of course EPIC The Musical is my favorite way of consuming that story 😁
The Iliad is awesome! Apparently the ancient Greeks esteemed it more than the Odyssey, so you are in good company.
Hahaha epic being a driver for me to read the Odyssey says a lot already about me haha! I really want to pick up Jonathan Strange soon! Thank you always for your comment 💕
The Odyssey a musical! When, where?
I wanted to be able to go to a suburban school so I could study Greek, but was unable to. Love Homer, Thucydides and the dramatists.
I have read several of these books and loved a few and hated others. There is a very fine line between "complex" and "tedious" that is of course mostly subjective, but I think often there is a tendency to give too much credit in some of these situations. Often critics, readers, booktubers will try to take the high road when describing books like this as "complex", "difficult read", "odd prose", "difficult pacing", etc etc....it is perfectly ok to call it like you see it; sometimes these books are not necessarily "complex" but are just simply poorly written and tedious.
Treat the Sil as a bunch of short stories on Middle Earth lore.
I found myself sometimes marveling at the prose in New Sun and not paying attention to the story. He also tells you how the series ends fairly early on. Its a lot of symbolism of symbolism but can be fun trying to figure out what things Severian is describing.
Have read the first page of Titis Groan several times and each time 'not today'. Someday...
Malazan becomes complex due to the sheer scale and scope. Lots of characters, lots of places, and lots of history. Events can be foreshadowded or called back to 3 books away. But there are multiple epic and heartwrenching scenes.
Most difficult book I’ve (attempted to) read was Ulysses by James Joyce. To this day I haven’t been able to finish it.
The Devine Comedy is actually one of my favorites of all time, definitely top 10 in my list, but I do agree reading it demands a certain amount of knowledge and patience from the reader. The footnotes for sure at the very least double the amount of time it would take to finish it, but the thing is, without them, you’d quit midway through Hell, because who has the time to read for hrs about people you don’t know nor understand why they ended up buried all the way to their necks, or are walking with their heads looking backwards.
Malazan is definitely in my list, and as soon as I finish my hitchhiking journey through the galaxy, it’s Malazan time baby!
Since The Silmarillion was published, Christopher Tolkien published expanded (and more or less complete) versions of some of the Silmarillion stories (The Children of Húrin, Beren and Lúthien, and The Fall of Gondolin). I would recommend reading those first (especially Húrin and Gondolin).
Thank you for the context! It really helps!
@@FunFantasyBooks Be aware they are even less finished works than The Silmarillion itself.
The Children of Húrin being the most finished, despite being cobbled together from two different versions. The other two are really just drafts of each story, lacking any polish of a finalized work.
Malazan is great so far on book 4 and I haven’t run into the issues there is a giant shift from book 1 to 2 but so far some of the best epic fantasy I have read
The only title on this list I haven't read (or tried to read in the case of Susanna Clarke) is House of Leaves, so I'm going to have to look into that one, and many are on my list of favorites, esp. The Worm Ourobouros and The Book of the New Sun, both of which I first read as a teen.
Just a few more candidates for "hard" books as you appear to be defining them:
R. Scott Bakker's The Prince of Nothing and The Aspect-Emperor series (starting with The Darkness That Comes Before). It's impossible to summarize in a comment but it's a brilliant epic that questions the nature of reality & creates a world that's nearly as complex as Tolkien's Middle-earth.
In the Arthurian vein, I would recommend Clemence Housman's The Life of Sir Aglovale de Galis, which is the tale of the tragic life of King Pellinore's son.
And then there's A.A. Attanasio's Arthor series (starting with The Dragon and The Unicorn).
I've only found your channel recently but I'm enjoying the videos. Keep up the good work.
Thank you for the detailed comment! 🌟! Noting those books down for the future!!
I took the challenge of reading Malazan last year. It was difficult but it's all worth it. It changed me as a person.
If you're still half decided, just make it a goal to finish up to Book 3: Memories of Ice. From there, you can decide if you wish to continue to see the end.
Great video. Makes we want to go back and give 'Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrel' another try. Regarding Gene Wolfe's 'Book of the New Sun', I think many readers get lost in it by over-emphasizing the 'unreliable narrator' theme, and somewhere I've seen Wolfe downplay 'unreliable narrator' when it comes to 'Book of the New Sun'. To me, the places where he is unreliable are understandable (e.g., omission at first of a physical relationship with Thecla). I DON'T think 'unreliable narrator' is of great importance in understanding the plot, especially compared to other stuff that's going on. What's really cool about 'The Book of the New Sun' - and why people feel the need to read it at least twice - is all the significant clues that Wolfe leaves hiding in plain sight. When you finally realize what's going on and start looking back on the clues you missed, you can't help but re-read. Another great book by Wolfe that I've heard Gaiman express tremendous appreciation for is 'Peace'. Though a single short novel, it may be even more difficult in some ways than 'The Book of the New Sun', but I think it's his most beautifully written piece of fiction and highly rewarding. Thanks again for a great video!
Didn't expect hard fantasy books will coming on this channel. You mentioned many fantasy books which are not standard fantasy books for readers.
You might check Perdido Street Station and Embassytown by China Mieville, Ice by Anna Kavan, the second apocalypse by R. Scott Bakker, The dying Earth by Jake Vance. Those fantasy books aren’t archaic writing but with flowery writing or the structure of the stories are obscure to readers. English also is not my first language so that I understand your caution reading them.
I have been reading and rereading the Tolkien books for a long time and Book of the New Sun and Malazan are a couple of my favorites, personally I did not find them hard to read at all, another you might try if you have not yet is Prince of Nothing and Aspect Emperor by R. Scot Bakker, very Grimdark but an amazing story and well written, another really good one from Gene Wolfe is the Soldier series, starting with Soldier of the Mist, set in ancient Greece
There are some books, and this seems is becoming less and less common, that are designed to be re readable. The Worm Ouroboros is one of those, if you read it once, you will get the gist of it, the conflict is not particularly complicated, but every time you re read it, you will get a new layer of complexity. Those are the kinds of books that end up becoming true classics in the sense that generation after generation goes back to them.
Always loved Homer's books. I've read a lot on the Arthur mythos, mainly nonfiction, but I have yet to read The Once and Future King. I recently started Stephen Lawhead's version of Arthur, Pendragon Cycle. It's very detailed and dense series - maybe like the Robert Jordan version of Arthur - so I haven't quite decided if I like it yet or not.
I hope you love The Once and Future King when you pick it up!!
Wow for a second I thought I was looking at Brandi Passante from Storage Wars lol. My GF read House of Leaves and she liked it. I still have to start, been on a Pirate thing lately. (more history based not fantasy, although a good fantasy about Anne Bonney would rock.)
My advice to anyone reading the Worm Ouroboros would be to take it like poetry more than a prose adventure. Read it like you would read Hamlet, for how cool everything sounds. It is ok to read something you do not understand, those are often the most enriching reading experiences. Now, I think the main difficuty for the contemporary reader of the Worm Ouroboros is that it is the apex of the "show don't tell", the narrator never goes into a character's head, everything is perceived as if you were by the narrator's side seeing everything. Contemporary genre fiction is kind of the opposite, super active narrators explaining how characters are feeling
I feel like with Malazan it's not always super complex, some of the stories can be pretty straight forward. But there are some parts that can get pretty freaky and arcane.
Gardens of the Moon is definitely worth reading. I enjoyed it much more on my second read!!
I love that Malazan is getting so much love in the comments! It’s really making me want to keep readint!
@@FunFantasyBooks One option is to wait until September when the illustrated versions of the first 3 books comes out. That would be a big help.
Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrel actually is a good book but you have to be patience because it is the kind of story that starts slowly and Malazan's problem comes from the fact that 1. it has many characters and 2. the author provokes the reader to think and link the points yourself without spooning the reader
I have been a long time fan of The Odyssey ever since middle school, having read three translations (and any number of graphic novels). It's not difficult for me to read, but the translation does matter. However, I find a lot of other works (typically those written during the Restoration and 18th Century England) to be much harder to figure out. I have tried to read Gormenghast and I will finish it one day, but that one is a struggle. However, I've heard it's worth it.
Uhhh my brain literally hurt when I was reading the first pages of Gormenghast 😭🥲. Perhaps one day! Thank you for sharing your love for The Odyssey!
Although you could probably get away with skipping the footnotes in Johnathan Strange & Mr. Norrel I would not recommend it. The whole book is about the discovery of magic and most, if not all, of the footnotes are passages from the books that they are referencing.
As a person with English also as my second language trying to read Ghormenghast felt like I didn't know anything about the language all over again. Sat with a dictionary and still only made it a few chapters in.
I read the house of leaves, it was great. I just love books like this, in the sense that you might not fully understand it to where when you read it again, it is almost like you are reading it for the first time!!
Oh! House of Leaves definitely seemed terrifying and unique!
Don't fully agree with what you classify as difficult, but BotNS is without doubt one of the best books ever written, irrespective of genre. An incredible, rich, deep book with the most wonderful prose. Wolfe was a master.
I don't like books that make me work so hard to understand them. I've read the Simarillion, but it's more like a collection of loosely related stories. Tolkien fans get more insight. I tried to read Worm Ourobolus?, but I hated it immediately so I only read a few pages. Most of the others I've never heard of except "The Odyssey" and I read mythology books instead. Difficult books take away from the story and I personally see them as examples of bad writing. I'll take Hemingway before any of the others. The simplest and most compact writing styles are the best.
I felt as a start Gardens of the Moon was unnecessarily complicated. I'm sure I'll try again.
The The Baroque Cycle by Neal Stephenson is a lot to take in.
Currently on my second read through of Malazan and it feels like I'm just catching up on parts i didn't understand fully the first time, The silmarillion i tried multiple times to read and could never get through the first few pages.
Read The Book of The New Sun as it came out. A must read. As is The Once and Future King.
I only read 3 of these, but I will try the others one day too
Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norell: if by hard you mean soporific, yes. Read about two chapters.
I read malazan and loved it, but i couldn't tell you what happened in books 7-10 lol
I read the Penguin Little Black Classics excerpt of The Divine Comedy earlier this year and I also felt absolutely stupid, it's so confusing 😂
I read The Worm Ouroboros because it was published well before LOTR. The language was archaic when it was published, and makes even drier reading today. It doesn't live up to the greats of Elizabethan literature in the slightest, towards whom Edison had such large pretensions.
Added to that, the plot was convoluted, but actually rather simple, just rambled about in such flowery affected prose. It owes more to the Arabian Nights than either Dunsany or William Morris. The characters were awful, yet assumed to be and extolled as great and wonderful and wise. That's for the reader to work out, and this reader thought it was BS.
I don't understand how JRRT thought so much of it, because on reflection, it looks like he set out to do the opposite in LOTR to all the things found in The Worm. Don't read the rest of it, it doesn't get better.
Just by the Softcover geez, of course books are hard
Malazan is over exaggerated. As storytube - channel - tells too it’s not that hard to read. Of course it’s not a short time. 10 books. When was it short? Wheel of Time is long, Stormlight gets longer by the minute. But reading Malazan? It’s changing your perspective. Yes, it has many POVs. It has a different approach on how to tell a story. So? Merphy Napier is bad in remembering things and yet she loves it. 😂 Yea, there is a Wiki to it, but we didn’t use it back then so it’s proof that it’s not necessary. Izzy reads it now without any help and he just loves it as it is. 1.5 weeks, maybe 2 / book (and he reads an other book too parallel). Critical Dragon agrees too that “confusing” is very different from this take.
Thank you for your detailed comment! It makes me feel better that Merphy diet remember but liked it hhahaha
Your blue dress is really beautiful and makes you look like a lady of leisure curled up reading.
Hahaha thank you!
I have gardens of the moon on my Tbr cart. . . And I’m scared to read it. And I read the odyssey for fun and ran through the once and future king when I was in freaking middle school
An excellent series of books that you will need a dictionary close by is 'The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant' by Stephen R. Donaldson.
Not necessarily fantasy but if you want complex:
Cormac McCarthy, Blindsight by Peter Watts, The Hyperion Cantos and the Ilium series by Dan Simmons (so many ideas), Dostoevsky, Moby Dick. These guys were in their own worlds lol
Thank you so much!
Also Starfish by Peter Watts.
I've read Malazan 4 times already almost time for no.5. best fantasy series ever written IMO
Gosh that is outstanding!
I remember Reading The Once and Future King after reading the sequel Merlin reading them out of order made them both read easier
That’s a great tip! Thank you!!
Small correction: you mentioned that the Worm Ouroboros was released at the same moment as Lord of the Rings, but that's not correct. This one was published in 1922 already, so roughly 30 years earlier. I read that few years back, such a strange experience as a non native English speaker...
Hola, sabes si los libros de The Witcher son mejores en español o en inglés? He oído que la traducción en inglés no es muy buena y no sé si leérmelos en español (Me da igual en qué leérmelos)
Hola!! Pues no sabría decirte!! En este caso yo te diría de leerlos entonces en español! Al no ser inglés el idioma original del autor, no creo que ganes mucho con el inglés!
Ok muchisimas gracias 👍@@FunFantasyBooks
House of Leaves is one of my favorite books that i may never read again. I love ergodic lit and horror novels, but the crass content is off putting to me these days. But it's a good ride
I shall find the courage to read it completely in spooky season 👀
Loooove my Malazan fix.
Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell isn't hard it is just over long, it could have been condensed into a book a third the length.
Well. What can I say. Making a video about books you haven't read is... Well, a unique way of content creation.
Hey! I marked the books as my TBR and then I read circa 50 pages of each as a challenge!
Silmarilion is more a History book about Middle Earth. For me it was borring because it was sooo monotone. I still have the copy🤔True, no plot, just "all started with" and than and than and than 😮💨
Yeah, that’s definitely how it felt like! I get that if you are super knowledgeable about the world, then this is great because it gives you so much! But for me it was like “oh aha aha, I need to lay down now”
Yeah, it is not a novel, but a collection of stories, and one that wasn't finished. So, it has two things working against it.
I personally didn't find it boring or difficult to read, just read it like any other novel and loved getting little more of the history and worldbuilding of middle-earth after i had read the hobbit and lotr. But i also am a history nerd that read non-fiction history books, so that's probably why its structure didn't bother me.
I was less than impressed by The Once and Future King.
you are like something out of imagination.
that being said, 50 pages isnt enough to get anything really out of anything you have listed here. i wish youd have read them all fully.
hard to believe you are real
What about The Faerie Queene? It's the bane of many English student's existence. The Orlando Furioso is as bad, but not required reading.
For more recent books I might pick on Little, Big. For impenetrable in a bad way, The Night Land.
why
Beowolf
Reading the Comedy without a *very* good commentary is a wasted effort, even if you are reading it translated and not in its original form, imo!
Too many references that are lost otherwise if you are not very familiar with italian middle-age history, culture and influences (like the role that Virgil had within intellectual circles at the time in your example) and how they changed and evolved through time (even when speaking just about latin authors!)
Yeah, you might be right! I did not understand a thing 😭🥲
@@FunFantasyBooks I mean, there's a reason why it's one of the most discussed and commented work ever ;)
Even the opening, which is pretty straightforward (Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita, mi ritrovai per una selva oscura, che la dritta via era smarrita) would be better understood knowing that Dante puts the start of the Comedy around Easter 1300, when he was 35 (70 being a biblical reference as the lenght of life), and knowing why 1300 is a particularly important year in Dante's political life (and the Comedy is as much - if not more - a political based work than a religious one).
Personally, I would think reading the Comedy without external help to understand the context is like 1000000/10 on the difficulty scale lol
If these are complex, Curious George will give most people an aneurism.
Like sin ver to this video hahahaha.
Jajajajaj eso si es confianza 💕🫶
Eleventh Cycle, makes reading Malazan a childs play.
Oh wow! That’s certainly something then!
Anyone else knows about the divine comedy from the book Inferno by Dan Brown?? 🥲