I have been moaning on this site and others about the cost of EV's. I took the plunge and bought a Seat Mii about a month ago, and sold my C3 Picasso Diesel. Now I have to get my wife out of her Panda, petrol, and start using the Seat around town, and have the Panda for long distance. She knows it makes sense, just charged the Seat with Granny charger Free for 2.5 hrs with Octopus. I loved the C3 but the Seat is great as well. Bring on the second hand EV market and bring the 300 mile car within easy reach financially.
@@clacton17 I got a used Chevrolet Bolt, 13,500 miles on the clock, $20k. Took my wife a week to realize it's the nicer drive, and get her out of the gas guzzler for most journeys.
This is actually a very valid point and sadly, many small cars are fitted with the worst CVT auto boxes. It’s rare to find a decent small automatic car from the last decade or so. In a way, even an automated manual like the Smart 451 is better than a risky CVT. However, those 10-17 year old Smart cars are still running fine, whereas the little Zoes from a decade ago have seriously reduced range.
EV's are definately coming to the cheaper end of car buying. It has taken a while but they are here now and that is a fantastic thing. EV's should be compared to the automatic better specced ICE cars, as they usually have more features as standard. Great video Dave.
The relatively quiet electric motor will benefit smaller low spec cars most of all as their ice versions are frequently noisy to travel in and engine noise at high revs intrusive. Throw in the “free automatic transmission” you get with EV’s and for the average driver, they are an unbeatable second car,
Yes Dave very much all change, I have an IPace and my wife a Fiat 500E, we ordered a Citroen EC3 plus some months back to replace the 500E, and it arrived at the garage yesterday, its due to get handed over to us in the next few days, some £7K cheaper than the Fiat was new 3 years ago.
Nice to see this video about PURCHASE prices comparing between EV and ICE. However. I'll note here (and also on other platforms) that an EV was already for many years much cheaper than any ICE car of the same luxury and size. For those who can calculate in TCO and also have a car for driving, not for being parked and only used incidental. However you are very right that at the start there werre no cheap EV models available. Much to much gadgets and options. I've seen the inster a few days earlier. In my country it starts at 25000 euro, top model 31000 euro. I looked to what the car delivers...and noted that the cheapest would not suit me. The next lever with extra option (winter pack including battery heating and heatpump) would do fine and would come around 27500 euroi. Estimated energy usage.... 7 km/kwh. When charging at home 1 eurocent energy/km (with solarpanel energy). I must tell...7 km/kwh is a little disappointing if we remember the ioniq 28kwh with heatpump doing 8 km /kwh for a bigger car. Still I'm happy with my much bigger ioniq 5...5,5 km/kwh on average iincluding pulling a trailer for 10% of the km. The small inster cannot pull anything. And that ioniq 5 was in 2021 already cheaper in purchase price than a lot of the comparable ICE awd cars same sized models.
In the Netherlands, The Mercedes dealers are selling the 4 meter long Dongfeng Box. 42kWh LFP battery, very efficient, more comfort, 360 degrees camera's, 12.8"screen + 5" screen and much more features than the Citroën ë-C3 Max, . . price €23,500 for the top spec. Best price/quality/range EV atm in Netherlands.
Electricity prices in the UK are currently very high due to the high cost of gas used to make electricity. Bizarrely, many people think the cost is due to renewables, which are actually the cheapest source of energy. The opposite is actually true.
@@javelinXH992The UK imported 36TWh of electricity last year, at an over 50% increase from 2021, while it’s shutting down power plants, not because of cost, but ‘environmental’ reasons. You claim, without any reference to a source in your speculation that renewable energy is the cheapest source of energy. This is not true. Storing energy is a major cost and unavoidable with wind and solar, whereas nuclear and gas/coal is not dependent on the day cycles and weather conditions. Also, wind turbines have limited life, cannot be recycled, so many need burying and replacing within a decade or so, with regular maintenance. There is plenty of oil in the North Sea, plenty of coal in Wales, yet the UK is buying electricity from countries that are either more willing to burn their fuel or to charge a premium for ‘renewables’.
@ I get my data from various industry and government reports. For example, the Electricity Generating Costs 2023 report (from the UK government and available on their website). This gives breakdowns for the LCOE for various electricity production technologies and gives data on expected costs based on when projects are being commissioned. Renewables always come out cheaper per mWh even when you do not factor in penalties for fossil burning technologies using carbon based fuels. I don’t consider these penalties in my own assessments as you can argue they are artificially created (I agree) and subject to government whims. If included they put gas at an even bigger disadvantage on cost. Wind are solar are cheaper. End of. No ifs or buts. The difference in cost compared to gas is more than sufficient to justify using energy storage. There are more ways of doing this than just Tesla batteries. I’ll come back to your other points later, as I actually share a lot of your views on those topics.
The UK these days is part of a larger electrical energy trading market we export and import more than in the past when imports were used only when supplies ran low. This can be seen by the increasing number of interconnections being deployed. The UK now mainly imports when it's cheaper to do so, particularly when using gas generation - which is the most expensive form of generating electricity in the UK (source: UK government, OFGEM regulator, National Grid, energy suppliers, energy analysts, ...). The imports are typically sourced from high renewable/zero-carbon countries - Norway, Denmark and France for example. As to wind turbines these are 90% recyclable already, the remaining 10% of GRP like products are activey undergoing research for recycling and EOL blades marshalled till they can be recycled. If your so concerned about this consider the much larger issue of similar boat hulls, caravan shells and other uses of GRP based materials that aren't recycled currently either, perhaps turbines will be the enabling technology for this to change. As to 'plenty' of oil/coal perhaps check of resources estimates, many only give 30 years of oil in the North Sea left. Plus of course your ignoring the very high tax-payer funded subsidies involved in o&g industry. However, since it seems the government is interested in the energy supplier and consumer group requests to reguonalise the UK's electricity generation pricing framework the it's likely well soon see whether those parts mainly operating on renewables get cheaper electricity ... imagine the demand for renewables and consumer mood swing against gas generation in those parts that don't have high renewable generation.
@@ComeJesusChrist Imports of electricity. Yes it is true that the UK is and has been a net importer of electricity. Why? Not because we cannot make it here, but it is more expensive to do so. Again, gas and coal are only trumped in their cost by oil when it comes to generating electricity. These three are always in last place when it comes to cost, with the main benefit being that they are (usually) reliable sources of generation. Gas in particular is fairly ‘throttle-able’ and can be ramped up and down quickly to cover demand fluctuations. With inter connectors across Europe now being well established, it is cheaper to buy in electricity over the course of any 12 month period on the trans-Europe market than make it here 100%. In other words, this mechanism helps keep your electricity price down, not up. Now I actually have an issue with this, or at least I am concerned about over reliance on it. That is energy security. Relying on inter connectors does require maintaining good relations with the other partners and gives them some control or pseudo control over your energy system. Luckily we tend to get on in Europe, but still. There is also the increasing Russian interference in cables running underwater. This 8 believe is a risk. I am actually quite happy for the UK to keep gas in use and especially in reserve. However, I am quite certain that a lot of the energy produced could be made and stored here from renewables. I am not convinced that net zero is achievable, but that does not mean we should not get as close as possible. We are very lucky in the UK. We have renewable potential most countries can only dream of, and we have people trying to stop it happening. My main concern is that the rush is too fast - we must be careful not to trip and fall. The transition needs to be managed sensibly and carefully, even if it means going a little slower.
With legacy auto finally realising that they can no longer attach silly high prices to their EVs (to protect their ICE sales), depreciation should be no more than the average new car.
@@grantbuttenshawBecause they are not producing/selling them at the right scale because the price is too high. Battery costs have dropped massively so COG will have come down now
The Renault 5e has received low scores in European NCAP safety tests, raising concerns about its safety. While you can compromise on features like extra speakers in a budget EV, safety is not something to gamble on-especially in a small European EV.
Dave ... I looked into the economics of chargers and ... what a surprise ... EVERYONE is currently gouging the market to high heaven (even Tesla!). I do not see how the price will fail to go DOWN over the next few years (but governments will need to make up lost tax revenue). Even stripped of taxes, here in Canada the "raw inputs" - i.e. a "liter-equivalent" of electricity vs a liter of petrol - the profit margin on electricity is ... ludicrously high?
Bring it on, it means cheap used EVs. In 2013 I bought a 2009 diesel Mondeo for 3200 quid, price new over 15000. Lost 75% in 4 years. Tidy car, ex-lease 100,000 miles. ICE cars depreciate too.
Exactly...he thinks it's relevant they have price parity....in reality the difference between profit margins is enormous. They make a huge loss on every EV sold.
Whilst new EVs may be cheaper now, please don't forget all the thousands of immaculate, nearly new EVs. Why spend £20k to £25k when £10k to £15k will get you many EVs with low mileage and some even still have years of warranty left.
Most new EVs are sold though salary sacrifice, fleet deals, as a company tax write-off and private lease or hire purchases. Therefore, these people are either incentivised to pay list price or cannot afford buying used, so have to get into debt for essentially hiring the car on a few-year lease. Used EVs are very cheap compared to their list price, but are risky in terms of the battery health and financing them is more difficult. Who would buy any of the Jaguar I-Paces, Taycans, e-Trons or other EVs that have near-delivery mileage but are over a year old, even if they are being advertised by main dealers at 60% of their list price? These vehicles had been sitting on the back of the forecourt for long enough to have an impact on the battery.
The designs are improving but some of the smaller cars still look like a child's drawing 😂 Still excited to get one at some point in the next two years.
This is an absurd comparison....EVs are sold at a massive loss....price paroty is meaningless....every BEV sold out of china and the rest of the world (except Tesla) is sold at a loss. What on esrth do you think prove parrity tells you? The only indication on anything is that Eavs demand is so terrible...they have to sell at even bigger losses. If you think that sustainable ...you don't understand markets..
tesla sells at a profit per car and makes killing on top selling credits to legacy auto. BYD sells EVs at a profit ..... legacy auto can either learn how to sell EVs profitably or go the way of British Leyland
Why are legacy car makers making a loss on EVs. I heard a petrol engine costs £5k and an electric engine costs £1k. An EV also needs a battery, but I think battery prices have come down 25% in the last 12 months. Is it all R&D? Something seems wrong. In China there are lots of new EV companies and breaking into a new business is expensive, but legacy car makers should have minimal costs.
@@robertwhite3503 they aren't that easy to compare.... manufacturing cost curves for battery's have already played out so costs won't fall.any further....it's not just legacy making a loss....BYD have never sold a BEV for profit in its existence....huge subsidies in China are killing legacy auto from every direction. There is an over supply also...so cars are heavily discounted just to move them...the demand for all forms of passenger transport has dropped off.. regardless of the type of powertrain....cars will stay cheap forever...
A small budget Chinese EV may be cheaper than the petrol Fiat 500, but the electric Fiat 500 is still around £10k more expensive than the petrol versions of the same model. Why would a petrol car purchased in 2025 have “very little value” in three years if ICE vehicles are no longer will be allowed to be sold in the near future?! Limited availability would dictate the opposite. ‘Depreciation’ is a term that should frighten EV buyers more than buyers of ICE or even hybrid and the few models that will offer price parity in the coming year or so will be a revelation. EV subsidies, the mandate and the heavy government interference caused the used EV prices to reach rock bottom. Family and small EVs now compete with full-spec Maserati saloons and high-end BMW V8 coupes in depreciation. If there are three cars at the same price, one being ICE (purposely overpriced to ‘compete’ with the EV), a hybrid model (that the manufacturer is selling at a loss or with lower margin due to added complexity and extra battery) and an EV, I have no doubt that the EVs are not going to fair well.
good points, I think youre being overly negative though. EV depreciation will be what it is. in the long term there won't be ICE to compare it to, in the short term it is weird, you have lack of confidence over battery durability, issues like battery leasing etc. After the ban. yes, ICE cars may well keep their value better, but it also comes with more risk. eg we currently have an automatic fuel price escalator, that has been manually paused for at least the past decade. If most people don't have ICE cars, raising that becomes more politically acceptable, as will outright banning ICE cars from city centres. In that situation, EVs may hold their value better, as there will be relatively fewer older EVs that everyone is after. Ultimately second hand cars are overly cheap anyway, I've never paid more than a grand for any of my cars, and theyve all had plenty of life in them. If they carry on being insanely cheap, I'm not going to complain, and I don't think its going to impact the buying (leasing) decisions of most people anyway.
Figures just out show the top 10 secondhand UK cars 3-5 years old ( actually showing a slight increase in price) were all ICE cars, the top 6 being diesel.
@@karlhulme8014 Can you verify the source, please? Autotrader did a list in February this year and the BMW 840i came tenth. There were a couple of Maserati saloons on the list, the rest being all electric, including the DS3 (1st), Vauxhall Corsa Electric (3rd), Nissan Leaf (4th), Vauxhall Mokka Electric (5th), Renault Zoe (7th), DS9 (8th) and the Peugeot e-2008 (9th). There is another Autoexpress article from February that put the BMW 850i on first place but for some reason covered the whole 8 series coupe range, followed by seven EVs, the Maserati Ghibli and the Audi A6 40 in eight and ninth place respectively. When you check Autotrader, these EVs have worse depreciation than what they predicted, which was that they would retain around 25-30% of their original list price after three years. Anyway, both lists included EVs and a few V8 salons/coupes, which are not really the popular and family choices. When the electric Corsa, Fiat 500, Mazda electric Crossover and other popular family cars are predicted to lose £20-30k in three years, that’s quite a concern. No one cares about big V8 saloons’ value, but why are family and small EVs losing so much?! If they’ve done the list now, the Audi e-Tron and the Porsche Taycan may make their ways onto it, replacing the Maserati, Audi and BMW saloons and coupe.
@@karlhulme8014 I haven’t found the source you were referring to, but I just noticed that Autoexpress did another three year depreciation list and apart from a couple of Maseratis, the Audi A8 and S6 saloons, it’s all normal electric cars, with the Leaf and Mokka-E leading, followed by the DSE-3Tense, GWM Ora, Corsa Electric and Jaguar I-Pace. The Leaf is expected to retain 27% of its list price after three years.
Im surprised about the Frontera. I was expecting a tiny battery but its got a 83Kwh battery 186 mile range. Although I have just reminded myself of just how much I hate car manufacturer web sites.
186 miles range from 83kWh battery pack? That's abysmal. If we assume that is 80kWh usable then that's about 2.3 miles per kWh. However ev-database suggests the Frontera has a 44kWh (usable) battery pack, so that would be about 4.2 mpkWh (WLTP).
@@InBodWeTrust yes I think you're right. The wonderful vauxhall website states "Battery Electric 11kW/113PS AutomaticELECTRIC, Automatic , 83 kW" This says to me the power of the motor is 11kw/113 ps, (which I now realise isn't right), and therefore the other figure is battery size? Apparently the 83kw is the power output, so I have no idea what the 11kw is. The range figure is given elsewhere under 3 auto playing video things that I'm sure some designer on a fancy Mac is very proud of
@@benholroyd5221 11kW most likely refers to the maximum AC charging rate ... 3-phase 11kW onboard charger. 83kW converts to 113ps so that's the relevant conversion there 🙂
If you're thinking of buying an EV just check these few points first. EV insurance greater than ICE like it or not there is an issue with 🔥, and if they get a small bump they are written off because nobody can guarantee the battery has not been damaged. EV maintenance, No local garages will service them as they don't have the technicians or the technology to work on them. You may not have to service them like an ICE , but they do go wrong, then it will be main dealer £££. The battery on an EV is almost like, well is a sealed unit one, just one failure of one of those hundreds of cells will mean the removal of the battery box at the main dealer running into thousands. Charging, if you can't charge at home forget it your going to be at the mercy of the charging companies, that will charge you variable amounts depending on what time of day it is . Petrol station display their cost by law , and don't vary their prices during the day. Do you think given the state of our energy market, mad net Zero that the price of electricity is going down anytime soon . Its only going one way if more people turn to EV's UP UP UP. Depreciation, Depreciation , Depreciation, like it or not EV's won't last as long as an ICE car because after ten years it won't pass to the budget end of the vehicle market ( where the smart people go) it will go to the crusher because like you're Apple i pad the maker will stop software support for the vehicle making it valueless..White goods like it or not. An ICE car after ten years can easily be kept going by a local mechanic using pattern parts for another 10 to 15 years, so their value will be maintained. ICE cars have continually improved its emissions, and an small engine ICE car is just as environmentally friendly as any EV when total emissions are added up. And finally Dave is a bit Biased 😂😂 😂 see Barrie Crampton , or Mac Master... Then make your mind up 😊
@@crm114.Have you got any response to the comment or are you just relying on your personal attack and ridicule? Why are ordinary, small and medium-sized EVs, like the Corsa electric, Leaf and many other ordinary cars among the most depreciating models according to Auto Express and other sources? Are you denying that finding garages that service and repair EVs is more difficult and software/limited availability and unnecessary complexity makes working on EVs more difficult and expensive?
@@ComeJesusChristThe cars you mentioned were over priced in the first place that’s why depreciation is higher. As for the rest of the fantasy land FUD (fires, battery etc.), it’s so, so old that any discerning buyer won’t be fooled for an instant and not worth responding to. Emissions from ICE cars lead to 100,000s premature deaths in Europe alone. For that reason alone they have to go. They are going.
@@ComeJesusChristAlso, EVs have far fewer parts that ICE cars and are more reliable. Servicing costs are a tiny fraction of ICE. Battery and drive chain have an 8 year warranty. Dealers have no issues in fixing them.
@ "Emissions from ICE cars lead to 100,000s premature deaths in Europe alone". What is your source? "The cars you mentioned were over priced in the first place that’s why depreciation is higher." "Overpriced?" The Corsa Electric, the Nissan Leaf, the Mokka-E, the DS3 E-Tense, the budget Chinese GWM Ora O3, the Jaguar I-Pace? By the way, This is Money republished the same list this morning. Last year's list from Auto Express included pretty much the same EVs apart from teh Jaguar being a new entry, also including the Mazda electric crossover and the Peugeot e-2008.
@@rm-kx8eterm, EVs can perfectly well keep up with standard motorway speeds. They aren’t like milk floats of yore, some have motors capable of hundreds of horsepower, most are at least as powerful as their ICE equivalent. There’s the occasional model targeted at urban only transport that can’t get up to 70, or struggle to stay there, but that’s very much the exception to the rule.
OP, registration figures show the opposite. EV registrations are increasing, ICE is decreasing. How do you figure from this that people don’t want them?
The description to that video talks about "milk Floaters and EVangelists" so it's very apparent that the channel is very much anti-EV, so will post as much BS as possible. Even the channel name gives it away. 🤦♂
A subject not touched on was safe disposal of electric vehicle batteries? They harbor very toxic chemicals and there doesn't seem to be much going on with their safe disposal.... or is there?
The batteries are neither very toxic (your average disposable vape comes with one built in. Do you really think that they would be allowed if the batteries were significantly toxic?), nor hard to recycle (there are companies queued up and chomping at the bit to do this).
Repurpose, Reuse or Repair. Older batteries with reduced capacity can be Repurposed for grid or local storage, those with working capacity Reused, some can be repaired having faulty cells replaced. Ultimately they can be recycled, a growth industry at the moment.
If they can’t be reused for grid storage they can be reduced to what’s called ‘black mass’ I believe which is worth something like 8K/tonne. Recent research also suggests that average life of EV batteries is something around 18 years apparently
once everyone is in one get ready for blackouts, with your nice shiny planet saver on the driveway unable to go anywhere, no internet and charging hubs down, life will be wonderful as long as you like walking.
Erm, since these vehicles will charge mostly off peak overnight when demand is lowest, and since they are starting to set them up so that they can feed surplus power back to the grid if demand is high, then they are the solution to the problem you are hypothesising. Also the national grid are saying that they will be able to cope with the demand created by EVs (AI data centres are much more of an issue).
@@stevetodd7383 is this the same national grid that said they were close to power cuts 4 weeks ago. Plus if you think you will be able to charge over night for a pittance once the majority are in ev's more fool you.
I have been moaning on this site and others about the cost of EV's. I took the plunge and bought a Seat Mii about a month ago, and sold my C3 Picasso Diesel. Now I have to get my wife out of her Panda, petrol, and start using the Seat around town, and have the Panda for long distance. She knows it makes sense, just charged the Seat with Granny charger Free for 2.5 hrs with Octopus. I loved the C3 but the Seat is great as well. Bring on the second hand EV market and bring the 300 mile car within easy reach financially.
@@clacton17 I got a used Chevrolet Bolt, 13,500 miles on the clock, $20k. Took my wife a week to realize it's the nicer drive, and get her out of the gas guzzler for most journeys.
If you add on the premium for automatic, the equivalent EV is cheaper.
This is actually a very valid point and sadly, many small cars are fitted with the worst CVT auto boxes. It’s rare to find a decent small automatic car from the last decade or so. In a way, even an automated manual like the Smart 451 is better than a risky CVT. However, those 10-17 year old Smart cars are still running fine, whereas the little Zoes from a decade ago have seriously reduced range.
EV's are definately coming to the cheaper end of car buying. It has taken a while but they are here now and that is a fantastic thing. EV's should be compared to the automatic better specced ICE cars, as they usually have more features as standard. Great video Dave.
The relatively quiet electric motor will benefit smaller low spec cars most of all as their ice versions are frequently noisy to travel in and engine noise at high revs intrusive. Throw in the “free automatic transmission” you get with EV’s and for the average driver, they are an unbeatable second car,
little ICE automatics are painfully slow. My leaf is quick off the lights 🙂
Yes Dave very much all change, I have an IPace and my wife a Fiat 500E, we ordered a Citroen EC3 plus some months back to replace the 500E, and it arrived at the garage yesterday, its due to get handed over to us in the next few days, some £7K cheaper than the Fiat was new 3 years ago.
no one could get me to trade my mid price ev for any ice vehicle . EV is far superior in driving fun, responsiveness, control, quiet etc.
Nice to see this video about PURCHASE prices comparing between EV and ICE.
However.
I'll note here (and also on other platforms) that an EV was already for many years much cheaper than any ICE car of the same luxury and size.
For those who can calculate in TCO and also have a car for driving, not for being parked and only used incidental.
However you are very right that at the start there werre no cheap EV models available. Much to much gadgets and options.
I've seen the inster a few days earlier. In my country it starts at 25000 euro, top model 31000 euro.
I looked to what the car delivers...and noted that the cheapest would not suit me. The next lever with extra option (winter pack including battery heating and heatpump) would do fine and would come around 27500 euroi.
Estimated energy usage.... 7 km/kwh. When charging at home 1 eurocent energy/km (with solarpanel energy).
I must tell...7 km/kwh is a little disappointing if we remember the ioniq 28kwh with heatpump doing 8 km /kwh for a bigger car.
Still I'm happy with my much bigger ioniq 5...5,5 km/kwh on average iincluding pulling a trailer for 10% of the km. The small inster cannot pull anything. And that ioniq 5 was in 2021 already cheaper in purchase price than a lot of the comparable ICE awd cars same sized models.
In the Netherlands, The Mercedes dealers are selling the 4 meter long Dongfeng Box.
42kWh LFP battery, very efficient, more comfort, 360 degrees camera's, 12.8"screen + 5" screen and much more features than the Citroën ë-C3 Max, . . price €23,500 for the top spec.
Best price/quality/range EV atm in Netherlands.
You are right if you include the price of an auto gear box on an ice car
Don't assume that we don't want Chinese EVs, and that being a joint venture with Stellantis makes it MORE attractive.
Here in Thailand public charging is the equivilant of 18 pence per Kw/h. I am not gloating just amazed how much it is in the UK.
Electricity prices in the UK are currently very high due to the high cost of gas used to make electricity.
Bizarrely, many people think the cost is due to renewables, which are actually the cheapest source of energy. The opposite is actually true.
@@javelinXH992The UK imported 36TWh of electricity last year, at an over 50% increase from 2021, while it’s shutting down power plants, not because of cost, but ‘environmental’ reasons.
You claim, without any reference to a source in your speculation that renewable energy is the cheapest source of energy. This is not true. Storing energy is a major cost and unavoidable with wind and solar, whereas nuclear and gas/coal is not dependent on the day cycles and weather conditions.
Also, wind turbines have limited life, cannot be recycled, so many need burying and replacing within a decade or so, with regular maintenance.
There is plenty of oil in the North Sea, plenty of coal in Wales, yet the UK is buying electricity from countries that are either more willing to burn their fuel or to charge a premium for ‘renewables’.
@ I get my data from various industry and government reports.
For example, the Electricity Generating Costs 2023 report (from the UK government and available on their website).
This gives breakdowns for the LCOE for various electricity production technologies and gives data on expected costs based on when projects are being commissioned. Renewables always come out cheaper per mWh even when you do not factor in penalties for fossil burning technologies using carbon based fuels. I don’t consider these penalties in my own assessments as you can argue they are artificially created (I agree) and subject to government whims. If included they put gas at an even bigger disadvantage on cost.
Wind are solar are cheaper. End of. No ifs or buts.
The difference in cost compared to gas is more than sufficient to justify using energy storage. There are more ways of doing this than just Tesla batteries.
I’ll come back to your other points later, as I actually share a lot of your views on those topics.
The UK these days is part of a larger electrical energy trading market we export and import more than in the past when imports were used only when supplies ran low. This can be seen by the increasing number of interconnections being deployed.
The UK now mainly imports when it's cheaper to do so, particularly when using gas generation - which is the most expensive form of generating electricity in the UK (source: UK government, OFGEM regulator, National Grid, energy suppliers, energy analysts, ...). The imports are typically sourced from high renewable/zero-carbon countries - Norway, Denmark and France for example.
As to wind turbines these are 90% recyclable already, the remaining 10% of GRP like products are activey undergoing research for recycling and EOL blades marshalled till they can be recycled. If your so concerned about this consider the much larger issue of similar boat hulls, caravan shells and other uses of GRP based materials that aren't recycled currently either, perhaps turbines will be the enabling technology for this to change.
As to 'plenty' of oil/coal perhaps check of resources estimates, many only give 30 years of oil in the North Sea left. Plus of course your ignoring the very high tax-payer funded subsidies involved in o&g industry.
However, since it seems the government is interested in the energy supplier and consumer group requests to reguonalise the UK's electricity generation pricing framework the it's likely well soon see whether those parts mainly operating on renewables get cheaper electricity ... imagine the demand for renewables and consumer mood swing against gas generation in those parts that don't have high renewable generation.
@@ComeJesusChrist Imports of electricity.
Yes it is true that the UK is and has been a net importer of electricity. Why? Not because we cannot make it here, but it is more expensive to do so. Again, gas and coal are only trumped in their cost by oil when it comes to generating electricity. These three are always in last place when it comes to cost, with the main benefit being that they are (usually) reliable sources of generation. Gas in particular is fairly ‘throttle-able’ and can be ramped up and down quickly to cover demand fluctuations.
With inter connectors across Europe now being well established, it is cheaper to buy in electricity over the course of any 12 month period on the trans-Europe market than make it here 100%. In other words, this mechanism helps keep your electricity price down, not up.
Now I actually have an issue with this, or at least I am concerned about over reliance on it. That is energy security.
Relying on inter connectors does require maintaining good relations with the other partners and gives them some control or pseudo control over your energy system. Luckily we tend to get on in Europe, but still. There is also the increasing Russian interference in cables running underwater. This 8 believe is a risk.
I am actually quite happy for the UK to keep gas in use and especially in reserve. However, I am quite certain that a lot of the energy produced could be made and stored here from renewables. I am not convinced that net zero is achievable, but that does not mean we should not get as close as possible. We are very lucky in the UK. We have renewable potential most countries can only dream of, and we have people trying to stop it happening. My main concern is that the rush is too fast - we must be careful not to trip and fall. The transition needs to be managed sensibly and carefully, even if it means going a little slower.
With legacy auto finally realising that they can no longer attach silly high prices to their EVs (to protect their ICE sales), depreciation should be no more than the average new car.
That's not why they do it mate....they make a loss on every EV sold
@@grantbuttenshawBecause they are not producing/selling them at the right scale because the price is too high. Battery costs have dropped massively so COG will have come down now
The Renault 5e has received low scores in European NCAP safety tests, raising concerns about its safety. While you can compromise on features like extra speakers in a budget EV, safety is not something to gamble on-especially in a small European EV.
Dave ... I looked into the economics of chargers and ... what a surprise ... EVERYONE is currently gouging the market to high heaven (even Tesla!).
I do not see how the price will fail to go DOWN over the next few years (but governments will need to make up lost tax revenue).
Even stripped of taxes, here in Canada the "raw inputs" - i.e. a "liter-equivalent" of electricity vs a liter of petrol - the profit margin on electricity is ... ludicrously high?
Elephant in the room re EV,s
Depreciation Depreciation Depreciation 😂😂😂😂
Bring it on, it means cheap used EVs. In 2013 I bought a 2009 diesel Mondeo for 3200 quid, price new over 15000. Lost 75% in 4 years. Tidy car, ex-lease 100,000 miles. ICE cars depreciate too.
No one buys new cars, they lease, so depreciation isn't an issue. It's actually a positive for everyone that buys their cars.
When you have a problem selling something, the best way to entice customers is to lower the price....
Exactly...he thinks it's relevant they have price parity....in reality the difference between profit margins is enormous.
They make a huge loss on every EV sold.
65ppkWh ? no thanks I will stick with Tesla on the go at 39 ppkWh !!!!
Local Tesla fast charge at 39p works for my MG4 alongside 25p per kWh for slower 6kW from 22kWh ChargePlaceScotland unit (my MG is single phase only).
Whilst new EVs may be cheaper now, please don't forget all the thousands of immaculate, nearly new EVs. Why spend £20k to £25k when £10k to £15k will get you many EVs with low mileage and some even still have years of warranty left.
Most new EVs are sold though salary sacrifice, fleet deals, as a company tax write-off and private lease or hire purchases. Therefore, these people are either incentivised to pay list price or cannot afford buying used, so have to get into debt for essentially hiring the car on a few-year lease.
Used EVs are very cheap compared to their list price, but are risky in terms of the battery health and financing them is more difficult.
Who would buy any of the Jaguar I-Paces, Taycans, e-Trons or other EVs that have near-delivery mileage but are over a year old, even if they are being advertised by main dealers at 60% of their list price? These vehicles had been sitting on the back of the forecourt for long enough to have an impact on the battery.
The designs are improving but some of the smaller cars still look like a child's drawing 😂
Still excited to get one at some point in the next two years.
Fiat 500 VW beetle kids drawings?
Cheap ev video, surely he can't talk about Tesla here. Right?
Sadly not in Canada ...
This is an absurd comparison....EVs are sold at a massive loss....price paroty is meaningless....every BEV sold out of china and the rest of the world (except Tesla) is sold at a loss. What on esrth do you think prove parrity tells you? The only indication on anything is that Eavs demand is so terrible...they have to sell at even bigger losses. If you think that sustainable ...you don't understand markets..
tesla sells at a profit per car and makes killing on top selling credits to legacy auto. BYD sells EVs at a profit ..... legacy auto can either learn how to sell EVs profitably or go the way of British Leyland
Why are legacy car makers making a loss on EVs. I heard a petrol engine costs £5k and an electric engine costs £1k. An EV also needs a battery, but I think battery prices have come down 25% in the last 12 months. Is it all R&D? Something seems wrong. In China there are lots of new EV companies and breaking into a new business is expensive, but legacy car makers should have minimal costs.
@@robertwhite3503 they aren't that easy to compare.... manufacturing cost curves for battery's have already played out so costs won't fall.any further....it's not just legacy making a loss....BYD have never sold a BEV for profit in its existence....huge subsidies in China are killing legacy auto from every direction.
There is an over supply also...so cars are heavily discounted just to move them...the demand for all forms of passenger transport has dropped off.. regardless of the type of powertrain....cars will stay cheap forever...
A small budget Chinese EV may be cheaper than the petrol Fiat 500, but the electric Fiat 500 is still around £10k more expensive than the petrol versions of the same model.
Why would a petrol car purchased in 2025 have “very little value” in three years if ICE vehicles are no longer will be allowed to be sold in the near future?! Limited availability would dictate the opposite.
‘Depreciation’ is a term that should frighten EV buyers more than buyers of ICE or even hybrid and the few models that will offer price parity in the coming year or so will be a revelation. EV subsidies, the mandate and the heavy government interference caused the used EV prices to reach rock bottom. Family and small EVs now compete with full-spec Maserati saloons and high-end BMW V8 coupes in depreciation. If there are three cars at the same price, one being ICE (purposely overpriced to ‘compete’ with the EV), a hybrid model (that the manufacturer is selling at a loss or with lower margin due to added complexity and extra battery) and an EV, I have no doubt that the EVs are not going to fair well.
good points, I think youre being overly negative though.
EV depreciation will be what it is. in the long term there won't be ICE to compare it to, in the short term it is weird, you have lack of confidence over battery durability, issues like battery leasing etc.
After the ban. yes, ICE cars may well keep their value better, but it also comes with more risk. eg we currently have an automatic fuel price escalator, that has been manually paused for at least the past decade. If most people don't have ICE cars, raising that becomes more politically acceptable, as will outright banning ICE cars from city centres. In that situation, EVs may hold their value better, as there will be relatively fewer older EVs that everyone is after.
Ultimately second hand cars are overly cheap anyway, I've never paid more than a grand for any of my cars, and theyve all had plenty of life in them. If they carry on being insanely cheap, I'm not going to complain, and I don't think its going to impact the buying (leasing) decisions of most people anyway.
Figures just out show the top 10 secondhand UK cars 3-5 years old ( actually showing a slight increase in price) were all ICE cars, the top 6 being diesel.
@@karlhulme8014 Can you verify the source, please? Autotrader did a list in February this year and the BMW 840i came tenth. There were a couple of Maserati saloons on the list, the rest being all electric, including the DS3 (1st), Vauxhall Corsa Electric (3rd), Nissan Leaf (4th), Vauxhall Mokka Electric (5th), Renault Zoe (7th), DS9 (8th) and the Peugeot e-2008 (9th).
There is another Autoexpress article from February that put the BMW 850i on first place but for some reason covered the whole 8 series coupe range, followed by seven EVs, the Maserati Ghibli and the Audi A6 40 in eight and ninth place respectively. When you check Autotrader, these EVs have worse depreciation than what they predicted, which was that they would retain around 25-30% of their original list price after three years.
Anyway, both lists included EVs and a few V8 salons/coupes, which are not really the popular and family choices. When the electric Corsa, Fiat 500, Mazda electric Crossover and other popular family cars are predicted to lose £20-30k in three years, that’s quite a concern. No one cares about big V8 saloons’ value, but why are family and small EVs losing so much?! If they’ve done the list now, the Audi e-Tron and the Porsche Taycan may make their ways onto it, replacing the Maserati, Audi and BMW saloons and coupe.
@ cap HPI (January 25)
@@karlhulme8014 I haven’t found the source you were referring to, but I just noticed that Autoexpress did another three year depreciation list and apart from a couple of Maseratis, the Audi A8 and S6 saloons, it’s all normal electric cars, with the Leaf and Mokka-E leading, followed by the DSE-3Tense, GWM Ora, Corsa Electric and Jaguar I-Pace.
The Leaf is expected to retain 27% of its list price after three years.
Im surprised about the Frontera. I was expecting a tiny battery but its got a 83Kwh battery 186 mile range.
Although I have just reminded myself of just how much I hate car manufacturer web sites.
186 miles range from 83kWh battery pack? That's abysmal. If we assume that is 80kWh usable then that's about 2.3 miles per kWh.
However ev-database suggests the Frontera has a 44kWh (usable) battery pack, so that would be about 4.2 mpkWh (WLTP).
The Fontera has a 45kWh/44kWh-usable battery.
@@InBodWeTrust yes I think you're right.
The wonderful vauxhall website states
"Battery Electric 11kW/113PS AutomaticELECTRIC, Automatic , 83 kW"
This says to me the power of the motor is 11kw/113 ps, (which I now realise isn't right), and therefore the other figure is battery size?
Apparently the 83kw is the power output, so I have no idea what the 11kw is.
The range figure is given elsewhere under 3 auto playing video things that I'm sure some designer on a fancy Mac is very proud of
I believe there is a Frontera to be launched later this year with a larger capacity battery.
@@benholroyd5221 11kW most likely refers to the maximum AC charging rate ... 3-phase 11kW onboard charger. 83kW converts to 113ps so that's the relevant conversion there 🙂
If you're thinking of buying an EV just check these few points first.
EV insurance greater than ICE like it or not there is an issue with 🔥, and if they get a small bump they are written off because nobody can guarantee the battery has not been damaged.
EV maintenance, No local garages will service them as they don't have the technicians or the technology to work on them. You may not have to service them like an ICE , but they do go wrong, then it will be main dealer £££.
The battery on an EV is almost like, well is a sealed unit one, just one failure of one of those hundreds of cells will mean the removal of the battery box at the main dealer running into thousands.
Charging, if you can't charge at home forget it your going to be at the mercy of the charging companies, that will charge you variable amounts depending on what time of day it is . Petrol station display their cost by law , and don't vary their prices during the day.
Do you think given the state of our energy market, mad net Zero that the price of electricity is going down anytime soon . Its only going one way if more people turn to EV's UP UP UP.
Depreciation, Depreciation , Depreciation, like it or not EV's won't last as long as an ICE car because after ten years it won't pass to the budget end of the vehicle market ( where the smart people go) it will go to the crusher because like you're Apple i pad the maker will stop software support for the vehicle making it valueless..White goods like it or not. An ICE car after ten years can easily be kept going by a local mechanic using pattern parts for another 10 to 15 years, so their value will be maintained.
ICE cars have continually improved its emissions, and an small engine ICE car is just as environmentally friendly as any EV when total emissions are added up.
And finally Dave is a bit Biased 😂😂 😂 see Barrie Crampton , or Mac Master... Then make your mind up 😊
What a load of garbage. It’s laughable.
@@crm114.Have you got any response to the comment or are you just relying on your personal attack and ridicule?
Why are ordinary, small and medium-sized EVs, like the Corsa electric, Leaf and many other ordinary cars among the most depreciating models according to Auto Express and other sources?
Are you denying that finding garages that service and repair EVs is more difficult and software/limited availability and unnecessary complexity makes working on EVs more difficult and expensive?
@@ComeJesusChristThe cars you mentioned were over priced in the first place that’s why depreciation is higher. As for the rest of the fantasy land FUD (fires, battery etc.), it’s so, so old that any discerning buyer won’t be fooled for an instant and not worth responding to. Emissions from ICE cars lead to 100,000s premature deaths in Europe alone. For that reason alone they have to go. They are going.
@@ComeJesusChristAlso, EVs have far fewer parts that ICE cars and are more reliable. Servicing costs are a tiny fraction of ICE. Battery and drive chain have an 8 year warranty. Dealers have no issues in fixing them.
@ "Emissions from ICE cars lead to 100,000s premature deaths in Europe alone".
What is your source?
"The cars you mentioned were over priced in the first place that’s why depreciation is higher."
"Overpriced?" The Corsa Electric, the Nissan Leaf, the Mokka-E, the DS3 E-Tense, the budget Chinese GWM Ora O3, the Jaguar I-Pace? By the way, This is Money republished the same list this morning. Last year's list from Auto Express included pretty much the same EVs apart from teh Jaguar being a new entry, also including the Mazda electric crossover and the Peugeot e-2008.
Doesn’t matter how much they are people don’t want them
Only the slow people don't want them.
There’s only one thing wrong with that statement- it’s complete BS
@@paulc6766 only slow people, the only slow people i see on motorways are ev drivers,
@@rm-kx8eterm, EVs can perfectly well keep up with standard motorway speeds. They aren’t like milk floats of yore, some have motors capable of hundreds of horsepower, most are at least as powerful as their ICE equivalent. There’s the occasional model targeted at urban only transport that can’t get up to 70, or struggle to stay there, but that’s very much the exception to the rule.
OP, registration figures show the opposite. EV registrations are increasing, ICE is decreasing. How do you figure from this that people don’t want them?
ruclips.net/video/VB-zLHRfUGY/видео.html
The description to that video talks about "milk Floaters and EVangelists" so it's very apparent that the channel is very much anti-EV, so will post as much BS as possible. Even the channel name gives it away. 🤦♂
A subject not touched on was safe disposal of electric vehicle batteries? They harbor very toxic chemicals and there doesn't seem to be much going on with their safe disposal.... or is there?
Tesla recycle >95% of battery materials. The materials are far too valuable to throw away.
There are recycling centres who are experiencing difficulties getting enough batteries.
The batteries are neither very toxic (your average disposable vape comes with one built in. Do you really think that they would be allowed if the batteries were significantly toxic?), nor hard to recycle (there are companies queued up and chomping at the bit to do this).
Repurpose, Reuse or Repair.
Older batteries with reduced capacity can be Repurposed for grid or local storage, those with working capacity Reused, some can be repaired having faulty cells replaced.
Ultimately they can be recycled, a growth industry at the moment.
If they can’t be reused for grid storage they can be reduced to what’s called ‘black mass’ I believe which is worth something like 8K/tonne. Recent research also suggests that average life of EV batteries is something around 18 years apparently
once everyone is in one get ready for blackouts, with your nice shiny planet saver on the driveway unable to go anywhere, no internet and charging hubs down, life will be wonderful as long as you like walking.
Pathetic drivel here!
Erm, since these vehicles will charge mostly off peak overnight when demand is lowest, and since they are starting to set them up so that they can feed surplus power back to the grid if demand is high, then they are the solution to the problem you are hypothesising. Also the national grid are saying that they will be able to cope with the demand created by EVs (AI data centres are much more of an issue).
They have already in Norway but no power cuts there. Maybe you’re just making this up
Perhaps you should go read The National Grid website about how EVs will barely affect future supply, so you can stop exposing your ignorance in public
@@stevetodd7383 is this the same national grid that said they were close to power cuts 4 weeks ago. Plus if you think you will be able to charge over night for a pittance once the majority are in ev's more fool you.