There is a term for it which I forget now, but, there is a mental disorder whereby people ignore evidence and substitute it with fantasy speculation to disprove the evidence! I'm seeing a lot of Triumph devotees suffering from that in these comments. My Experience with Triumph is similar to yours Stuart and when they deserve to be called out you are right to call them out, well done very fair video!
"Straw manning"? A straw man is when someone replaces or misrepresents another persons argument with one they never made, in order to make it easier to refute. Or it could be displacement, a psychological term that says people project on to others failings they themselves exhibit, because it's easier than dealing with it. Both are common on the internet and in politics.
@@borderlands6606 No, I think it's more like "Confirmation bias", cherry picking evidence that supports your belief and ignoring that which contradicts it.
All manufacturers do it. Ford pulled a Mini apart in the 60s to see how Austin were making it for the money and decided they were making it for a loss, which turned out to be true!
Everyone does it. Doesn’t hurt to know what’s going on with the opposition. Enfield will be doing it too. It’s actually good that the lower end of the engine capacity range has been pushed along a bit by Enfield. The other manufacturers have had to wake up a bit and that’s good for motorcycling in general as there’s lots of choice now.
Morning Stuart, I have owned a few bikes in my time my favorite being my Noton 750 commando which I rode back in the 80's. I am now 63 years old and have a 2014 Triumph T100 .I have had small issues with it but nothing major. Anyone who thinks they can buy a motorcyle of any brand and think they will have a lifetime of trouble free riding are in for a shock.Any motorcycle can have or develop a problem over time . We buy our bikes because we like how they look and put our own stamp on them either cosmetically or for performance. I enjoy your channel Stuart but you are coming across as being a bit anti triumph these days. I like the Re's they too have some nice looking bikes . You are in a privalaged position Stuart that even if your Triumph broke down you have another 5 bikes you can ride most people dont you'll probably find that these are the guys that ride Japanese bike because of their reliability record.
it may just be a case of triumph using competitor bikes for bench marking their own products its a very common practice in the car industry and i wouldnt be surprised if it was the same in the motorcycle industry basically the idea is to take a competing product and do a detailed analysis of the engineering and qc i would think most manufacturers from KTM,Honda and RE probably do the same
Nothing new, I used to work in an industry where we bought competitors products to see how they worked, many times coming up with a better way of doing it :) The customer usually benefits so not all bad.
Morning Stewart. So many of my old mates winged when I bought a brand new XS650 Yamaha. But unlike my old Triumphs that I owned, that XS650 Yamaha started up first time every time no matter the weather. And unlike my, and my mates Triumphs all I had to do to go anywhere, I just put petrol in her. In short it did everything I wanted it to at the press of the starter and took me where I wanted to go, then back home. Rather like my Royal Enfield 650 Super Meteor! Safe cruising sir and wishing you well soon ...
I owned three Yamaha XS650s, all Special models, a 1979 and two 1983s. The Special was the cruiser version. Wonderful bikes. They managed to be nearly 100% reliable, and still retained lots of character, something completely missing from modern bikes.
I was getting interested in a T400 as a replacement for my Hunter 350 but after listening to you, I think I will wait for the Hunter 450 to be launched. I choose to ride these (sensible) size bikes these days as at 77 years young, I haven’t the strength to handle anything heavier/higher. Ps, in the past, I have owned a T100 (too bland and boring) and an Interceptor 650 (uncomfortable and heavy), so I do have 1st hand knowledge of them. I might add that the omission of a centre stand on the T400 is a real mistake! Keep up the good work Stuart, much appreciated.
Hello Stuart from the state of Pennsylvania USA on the shores of Lake Erie near Canadian border. I am currently a Royal Enfield rider that has been riding various bikes for 56 yrs. I now ride a 2020 500 Trials with the red frame and really enjoy it. I am also hoping to add an Interceptor soon. Having ridden the older Triumph models in years long gone and can say that Triumph had the looks and handling advantage over many bikes back then. We are talking 1960's and 1970's. The problem I encountered with Triumph was reliability issues. Electrical problems abounded along with leaking gaskets and seals. Having owned some BSA's as well and comparing them to Triumph I would choose a BSA every time. They were better quality machines and I found them to be quite reliable. Handling was almost as good as Triumph but they just weren't as pretty. I have not had the opportunity to ride or own a modern Triumph but based on what you are reporting it sounds like the same old same old. They are quite beautiful but may not have the greatest of reliability. Perhaps I will get a chance to ride one at some point before I am too old to throw a leg over the saddle. At the age of 72 I am still going strong. Cheers from the USA and keep up the great work.
Stu, Levis used to be GREAT! They were well made, and they'd laugh at any abuse you could throw at them. As a boy, I had one pair for years; they went from blue to white. I played American football in them, camped in them, did dirty jobs in them, and so on. They held together. I was hard on that pair of Levis, but I had 'em for years. They laughed at whatever abuse a teenage kid could dish out to them. They also fit well. Their sizing was consistent. I could just look for my size, grab 'em, and I knew that they'd fit the same, great way every time. Then, in the early-mid 1990s, I needed a couple of pairs of jeans. I bought a couple of pairs in my size, and brought them home. They only lasted a matter of weeks. Instead of being made in the US as they had been, they were made in Guatemala or something. Instead of using heavy denim and good, thick, and strong thread, they skimped on both. I was like WTF?! Levi Strauss had taken a lead on this DEI crap back then vs. focusing on making the good, solid product that had made them famous. I haven't owned a pair of Levis since. Harley-Davidson, like Triumph, trades on their name and history. They rely on slick marketing that recall their storied past. I've thought about getting a H-D, but they no longer make anything that I like as they used to do in the late 1990s to early 2000s. Plus, their bikes are overpriced. Unfortunately, the modern Hinkley Triumphs have gotten too expensive as well. Give me a Royal Enfield ANY day of the week! If I could, I'd have one of every model they make... 😁😁😁
But one thing is sure thriumph has their work cut for them , cause the 450 himayalan which RE released is a thing of beauty of engine and there is spyshots of it on a hunter 350 kinda frame . Taking the triumph head on. Codenamed guerrilla now. Then the classic 650. We are having the best time of biking in long Stu 🥳🥳😂
My late father loved triumphs, but purchased Japanese bikes. He had a Yamaha 650 twin and he would often say that Triumph should reverse engineer it as a new bike.
‘Man Flu’ is life threatening, as all men know…. You’re a credit to the species Stuart, bravely battling on in the face of such adversity. Ambulance dispatched… 🙏
Good morning Stu. I enjoyed the video. Very thought provoking. It wouldn’t surprise me me at all if Triumph have designed the new 400 bikes using ideas from Enfield. I think Triumphs have been overpriced for years and they have losing sales to Enfield since the Interceptor was released. Hope you feel better soon.
Hi Stu, you've made some good points regarding Triumph however like any product you'll have problems, because manufacturers do not make every componant on their machines, they buy in from other companies. Ive owned three Bonneville's and have never had problems. I purchased the Royal Enfield 350 meteor and from the off had problems with the headlamp misting up without it ever getting wet, Enfield said I'd have to wait a month for a replacement, after three months still no replacement. I also got tired of it clonging engine noise when under load and its lack of power, so chopped it in for the interceptor, strait off i had electrical problems due to the masses of grease in the connectors on the relays, after intensive cleaning they started to perform better. Following that the clocks started misting up and Enfield did not want to know. I sold the interceptor and have returned to a Triumph speed twin 900 lets hope it performs better than what others have said theirs had. All manufacturers copy each other that has been going on since the proction of all automobiles and will continue to do so. Keep up the good articles.😊😊
Triumph can copy everything but the price tag.... of course, material and labor difference between RE and Triumph is a major factor... But when I purchased my 650 Interceptor.. in Ravishing Red !... it was a deciding fact. The additional... engine size, performance.. etc etc that Triumph offered wasn't worth the nearly $5000.oo price above the Interceptor.... I purchased the RE for what it wasn;t...... it filled my riding desires perfectly... local... Saturday coffee and pie .. distance touring... the Triumph might get there before me... but the Triumph rider will stop.. and won't get his helmet off by the time I pull up..... 😎
I remember back “in the good ole days” one could tell the make of a motorcycle from a distance… same with cars, they all had their distinctive look. nowadays I can’t tell what brand of car or motorcycle I’m looking at unless I see an emblem. Copy cats? Yes indeed!
Amusing indeed Stu. One point I would make though is that 'benchmarking' of products is widespread and common in all industries and has been for probably 70 years or so. It makes sense really as it gives them a chance to see ways of improving or cost reducing their own offerings. I would always buy a bike which had all the best points on it in preference to one with weaknesses (like your Triumph gearbox?). As for the outcry when you moved towards RE, fanboys and trolls are a fact of life these days and perhaps before too, but they didn't have the internet and social media to make things easy for them. Get well soon Stu. 👍
I had covid and all I got was kidney pain on the first day, then a mild head cold for a week following. My brother and his wife gave it to me, and they lost their smell and taste for like two weeks. Lol
Thanks Stuart! Very interesting, and something I have suspected for some time. My wife & I both ride Royal Enfields, and I must confess, I do lust after a Continental, if only to relive my rocker days😁
The thruth is that ideal form of bike has been sorted at mid 80 wich explain popularity of retros,from there it growth differrent kind of monstrosities in pursue of profits and extravagances made it prohibitely expensive and ower complicated .Indians figured it out by healthy common sense .
Hi Stuart. Perfect video once again like usually. I am pretty sure, that all manufacturers of bike cars ets. do the same way. They are looking over the shoulders of others. In case of RE and Triumph is sensible in that way, that most of engineers left in 2016 when Triumph decides for water cooled engines and moved into Eichel. Sound of air and water is like (Air - JSBach and Spring - Vivaldi) Both are very nice masterpieces, but make quite atmospere air - Bach is "da cappo di tutti capi".
In 2016 I bought both a T120 and a Classic 500 when it came to selling one I just couldn’t get rid of the classic so sold the Triumph. That being said I am currently looking for a first generation Street Triple as it is a fantastic motorcycle and I regret trading mine in many years ago. I believe both brands have their strengths but in the classic department RE just get it where Triumph are creating gorgeous looking bike which simply don’t have the classic feel. In this regards if Triumph are trying to learn from a superior brand (in my opinion) to improve their machines in a certain segment then fair play! Just as I would hope that if RE branched out into modern roadsters then they would look at the Street Triple for ideas. As people have said, there is a history of this in all industries and if it creates better products then it is all well and good. It is great to see the policeman in you is still fully active Stuart, keep up the good work
Poor old Ron. He brings his bikes in for one day to do a service during his lunch hour. Sadly the same day the photographer came in and took the pics. Ron got the blame and despite 9 kids and a mortgage he was sacked! Uncle Stu c’mon! Seriously tho my trophy 1215 is a direct copy but improved version of the R1200RT and when BMW complained to the man they said “sure we looked at it, took the best bits and improved the not so good bits”. It’s accepted practice to do it just don’t deny it Baldrick 😅
Hello Stuart, I ride a 96 Triumph Adventurer 900 and it is a keeper as I would never sell it. This year I decided to get a smaller capacity bike for around town and better days in the winter. I test rode one of the new triumph 400. I found the build quality and character have slipped some what From chunky old 90's bikes. I then tried the Royal Enfield Interceptor and I did comment to my wife that there were similarities between the two at the time. I did ask myself the same question as this video myself. Hope you feel better soon Stuart.
Many years ago I created a fish hook with a weight on the shank which would cause the bait to drop at an angle useful for fishing rip rap. Giving the bait a more realistic swim path and longer exposure. I gave a half a dozen to my friend who fishes bass tournaments and he took third place in a large fishing tournament on the Connecticut River with three good sized smallies. A couple of the pros asked him what he used he showed them! I noticed in the next edition of Bass pro shops catalog there was my hook! 😢
Nice work Stu. I initially thought they were aiming at the Hunter, but regardless, they are obviously going after the Royal Enfield market, and I’m afraid that’s going to be a very uphill battle, due in large part to their inability to keep up with production the likes of what RE can put out.
Thank Stuart, very interesting, I to have recently moved away from Triumph and back to honda, Luck would have that I made a hansom profit of £1200 on an exstreamly low milage 2010 Bonneville SE from some also buying into the Triumph myth.. don't get me wrong, the bike was well put together, and I enjoyed it for the short time I had it. However, needing knee and hip replacements, it was a bit of a lump to move about when not riding. I now ride a Honda 600 Silverwing and a 1999 CB500, and what a pleasure to ride they both are obviously very different but very well engineered. After satisfying my Triumph itch, I have iam really enjoying my old steeds and just waiting to get an RE Interceptor when they drop in value.. but for me unfortunately they are really not dropping, especially for unmolested bikes.. I am really impressed of how RE have established themselves as the new superpower in the world of motorcycling.
One thing Triumph certainly didn't copy from Royal Enfield are those hideous golden fork legs, a complete misfit on a classic style bike like the 400. Thumbs up to Royal Enfield for resisting this awful fashion.
Gold doesn't belong anywhere on a motorcycle, unless it's pinstriping on the tank. Gold should exist as an investment in a vault, or on the bath taps of footballer's wives.
Very common & normal practice. Honda would purchase a variety of different manufactured cars prior or during a minor model change introduction to see possibilities of improvements to their own parts usually but not always Non IP parts. They would be tested continuously & copied with slight modifications or not. Common practice from cars to motorbikes, AC units etc etc. Normal manufacruring procedure nothing sinister or underhanded.
I have had my Triumph Tr-6 with a hard tail and magneto for 40 years and I have had less trouble with it than the newer ones. All l carry with me is a master link and a clutch cable. The new Triumph Bobber looks just like my hard tail Triumph Tr-6. I also have a Triumph TR25W . I know it is a rebadged BSA C-15 250 which is cool because I have 4 BSA C-15 in both street and dirt versions and my BSA 441 Victor.
I was once doing some contract work at the Jaguar Whitley research plant. There they had a couple of Lexus models that they were testing. All manufacturers assess their competitors products.
My late step-dad was Jaguar's senior test driver. He would regularly turn up at home in an E-Type, then in later years an XJS which would be bog-standard except maybe for a BMW alternator, or a Mercedes spark plug (you get the drift)...so this has been happening for decades.
Hello, Stu, I remember in 1969, Triumph at Meriden got hold of a brand new Honda CB750 for evaluation and testing, while they were road testing the Honda, the drive chain snapped. Edward Turner himself dismissed the Honda as cheap rubbish not worth further investigation purely based on the broken chain which wasn't even manufactured by Honda. How wrong he was, the Honda CB750 in single cam form proved itself to be an excellent motorcycle and was in production for about ten years until the DOHC version arrived. In 1971, Benelli got hold of a Honda CB500, they stripped it down and copied the motor with slight changes to the cylinder block angle and the cylinder head finning, they installed it in their own chassis and created the Benelli 500 Quattro in 1972. The motors of all the 1970's and 1980's Benelli fours and sixes from 350cc to 900cc were based on that original Honda CB500.
Rolls Royce put a different radiator grill on the front of their Seraph and called it a Bentely Arnage. Indeed, if you open the passenger door on an Arnage (4.4 model) you will see the manufacturers plate: "Made by Rolls Royce, Crewe, England". The irony being it had a BMW engine...
I've often wondered about the relationship between Royal Enfield and Triumph. I understand they share testing facilities and former frame designers, but of all the places in Britain RE could have chosen to build a head office, it's as a neighbour in an unremarkable corner of the English midlands. Either the relationship is cosier than we imagine, or it's the biggest two-fingered salute in commercial history.
RE has made a small miracle in lifting their products up to the forefront internationally. From a forgotten "made in India" brand to something really desirable seen with western eyes. And we bikers are both picky and conservative, and we tend to stick to our "old" brand no matter what. How they did it should be obligatory studies everywhere that marketing and branding are studied and taught. Sid Lal and his team are the rockstars in the motorcycle industry, and they made it by catering to a need we did not even know existed just a short time ago. No wonder if Triumph and others want to see how it should be done. And take a peek at their products. And learn the necessary lesson. Kudos to Triumph for the new 400:s, no matter what trigged it but they should have caught on earlier. But still, they made the right move and will propably sell quite a lot of those new, smaller bikes. As long as they have the sense to keep the pricing competitive.
Just so cleaver observations and thoughs, as usual on you, Stuart. The best regards from Navarra, Spain. Your come whenever you whises to ride our mountains. Your loyal viewer, Emmanuel.🤘😎👌
Ive had my trident for 9 months and its booked in for the second recall, love the look, ride and sound of the bike but not as well put together as my last bike a cb300r.
Great video Stu and thought provoking. As for copying British motorcycles. Meguro under license produced the BSA A10. Meguro fell into financial difficulties and were purchased by. Kawasaki Heavy Industries. Where they did take the under license A10, tore it apart..... Kawasaki W1. The rest aa they say is history. Keep up the good work 👍
Yeah, I have a 2001 W650, a repro of the original W1 brought out by Kawasaki. Absolutely brilliant bike, love it. But, all the NEW Triumph riders think it a copy of a Bonnie 😅😄😁🤣
My first modern Triumph was a 2009 675 Daytona. Lovely bike but loads of recalls and a failed Regulator/rectifier and a sticking EXUP valve. unacceptable on a bike costing so much. Chopped it in eventually for a 2016 Bonneville. Again nice bike, that is until the electrical problems started. Battery keeps going flat Even with a brand new battery. Left cylinder ignition coil failed (replaced by myself) and now it appears that the right cylinder ignition coil is going the same way. Triumph dealer not really interested and to be honest, for them to just diagnose what is wrong with it is just too expensive. I'll fix it myself (again) but this just shouldn't be happening. Bought an Interceptor in 2019 and it was perfect. So I had no worries when I chopped the Interceptor in for a Super Meteor. I won't be getting another Triumph, ever!
Guy i know retired [i work for the same organization] less than 1 year ago and proceeded to buy his dream bike, yes a Triumph Boneville. less than a year later he has traded it in at a massive loss. so much for fulfilling dreams.
Having just got back from test riding the Scrambler 400x I'm glad that Triumph have been copying other people's home work. The 400x is the bike I've wanted someone to make for a while, it's just a real shame that R.E. takes so long to release bikes here in the USA, I have been waiting for the new Himalayan arrive but it's taking way too long and I'm going to go with Triumph again. Maybe when the Scram 450 appears I'll give that a go.
Thanks for this video . Ive never owned a Triumph , but i do like the T100 - T120 , and the speed twin . I have owned ENFIELDS , and like there simplicity .
HaHa Absolutely brilliant video...I love the way you put it across it had me in stitches at one point i spat my coffee all over the place.BRILLIANT. 👍👍👍
The Interceptor is owned by an employee of Triumph who didn't want to leave it out in the rain🤗. I've seen a video about Suzuki in which it was said that employees of Suzuki are encouraged to ride bixe made by other manufacturers.
So, are you actually saying that the emperor really has no clothes? In all honestly, I read somewhere that when Royal Enfield was setting up their Tech Center in the UK, it so happened that Triumph had recently completed most of its engine design work, and so had determined that much of its design staff were no longer needed. So, as the folks who had been working at these jobs were made redundant, Royal Enfield snapped many of them up. So perhaps there may be some Triumph DNA in some of the Royal Enfield engines. Now I may be totally wrong on this, but it is, in my experience, that different companies are competing in the same industry, some of them are on a downward trajectory while others are on an upward swing. So people working in that industry move from company to company depending on who needs the people with the required skills. So after 40 or so years in the industry in which I was employed, I was familiar with many people who were now working for competitors, and would bump into them from time to time.
Triumph were complacent about Sid Lal's plans for RE, and the projected twins… until the former Hinkley guys were taken on (along with others from around the World's motorcycle industry) to develop the new bikes. It's said that now, new tech employees of Triumph, have it written into their contracts that if they leave, they're not allowed to work for RE until a certain period of time has elapsed. Triumph were handed a small 'out' by Sid Lal when he decided to build the twins to comply with A2/LAM etc. licence restrictions to widen their market appeal… Triumph saw they couldn't compete with the new 650s (at the price) and moved their retro twins up to a bigger capacity, higher priced, market sector instead.
Hey Yep from Spain! Last year I bought one of my dreams bikes, swaping my Honda CB500F for a Triumph Street Cup used selled and garantees by the oficial Triumph dealer in my zone. The bike has wire issues because the design of the semibars and they didn't want to fix it. A very nightmare and I figures out they didn't do the brake fluid change, the valve check and more things. They also give it me back with a clock glass shuttered, also saying they didn't. If I want to replace my self the display clocks codt 1000€ due to it has the ECU inside.... My problem here is that they also are Royal Enfield dealership. If I replace my triumph it will be the Continental GT without a doubt! Thanks for your videos.
Yeah I think you're right on that one, also it's further have Ktms and otidirt bikes in the photo & theve just launched "there" version of the TF 250 which looks very similar to the ktm& Husqvarna..I reckon the big single super moto style bike will be be next..🤔???
Just to point out that a large part of the design of the new Himalayan was probably done by the ex Triumph engineers in UK that Enfield poached? Secondly the best selling Brit bikes post war were copied from DKW. I wish both companies the very best…there’s room for both and competition is good for everyone……otherwise you end up with NVT.
well they didn't kidnap the staff and hold them prisoner did they? I think there was a huge amount of free will involved and my conversations with ex Triumph staff suggests they have a huge staff turnover so..... its not really the same thing is it.
Levi's bought the design for riveted reinforcement off a tailor , in terms of Triumph repair, you might want to look at a hook up with "the wurks" like Freddie Dobbs if you still have it.
I love going out on a warm summers day on my interceptor and it amuses me when bmw and triumph owners try really hard not to look at my bike. But in the end they all fail and cant help themselves 😅
You make some excellent points on Triumph running purely off history and tradition these days...which is quite funny considering they've been building in Thailand for almost 20 years! I used to own a Thruxton 900 which i sold a year ago. I bought it brand new in 2015 for $15990 AUD. The newer Thruxtons are over $25000 in dealers these days, its absolute madness! Apart from the new 400s, Triumphs are significantly overpriced compared to other motorcycles on the market. A new Speed Twin 900 will set you back almost $16000 here, whereas a new Interceptor is priced under $11000. Not sure where the additional $5000+ worth of bike is? Maybe a slightly nicer finish, bit more grunt and some better parts/features, but not over 5 grands worth! They, as well as the owners/fanboys which admittedly did include me until recently, claim all this heritage and history, yet they are built in Asia and have been for some time. Suppose you have to charge a hell of a lot more for your product though and rely more heavily on marketing if you're selling in a year what Enfield sell in a month.... Great video
It wouldn't surprise me in the least. Evaluating competitors products seems to me entirely natural. We did it back in the war with captured equipment. It's the same thing. It enabled us to produce better fighters, or tanks. I don't know if it's copying, as such, but it will enable them to compete in the same market, even if they might lag behind. If BSA, or whoever, had been more on the ball back in the day, they might not have continued producing outdated designs.
Triumph obviously use other competitors motorcycles as development targets. RE is a direct competitor and IMO RE produce (in the case of the Interceptor) a better value and more reliable bike than the T100.
With all the manufacturers and models out there, how do you come up with a totally different look? In my opinion, to somewhat copy an idea that's "really" working is a compliment that works out to the consumers advantage. My next comment might seem horrendous and not to demean any company or personal feelings but some of the new all electric vehicles will probably never share garage space with my beautiful petrol burners. At my antigue age l'm safe to make this comment. LOL. 👍👍5🏍🙋♂️
We have this problem in the states with politics "there is a mental disorder whereby people ignore evidence and substitute it with fantasy speculation to disprove the evidence!" . Motorcycles not so much...
The answer is clearly no. There is none of the key elements of an RE Interceptor in the Triumph. But of course they are aiming at the same group of customers, but they are using the same platform as KTM and of course Bajaj.
@@stuartfillingham air cooled vs water cooled, one cylinder vs two cylinders, built by bajaj, who have their own platform... I see no similarities other than developed and made in India.
I mean there is quiet bit of change in quality of a street twin and the Triumph, cause we all know that triumph had a name has one of the best built bike of perfect quality. ,Which is true but the 400 ones surely had a downgraded quality in comparison to it other model range,( i agree the other one are more expensive ),but they are fighting the market with Royal Enfield who own that make and have quality very close the higher end models of the Triumph. 400 seems like a triumph built engine, set up on a bajaj frame and all the out exterior fit. I just speculative here has i tried the bajaj dominor 400 and triumph 400. Why i bring the quality comparison is , that is the part which RE nailed with less money . And triumph gave too much for rider and overpriced.
@@mikaelpettersson2389 What a naive reply! For a start they have sourced exactly the same switch gear and some braking components from the RE. Although RE has now upgraded to a higher spec. There are hundreds of components in a bike, not just an engine. Also all Bajaj products used licenses technology none of it owned by them!
The answer is clearly yes! the switches and master cylinder are exactly the same as those on my Interceptor, although I think Enfield has now upgraded to better quality ones now!
It's amazing just how much better that 1960s Interceptor looks than the new one. Just look at the chrome and polished aluminum on that bike. Compare that with all the black everything on the new one. I owned a 1966 Triumph Bonneville for more than 20 years. Bought it in 1988. I was very happy with it. It was a beautiful and fun bike, unlike anything that Triumph makes today. Lots of chrome and aluminum, and the tank was bright blue and white two tone, separated by a chrome emblem. Of course the same can be said about pretty much all motorcycle manufacturers. Yes those old bikes had their problems, but most of them were more from poor build quality and material quality than anything being wrong with the designs. When things did go wrong, they could be worked on. You could almost rebuild one beside the road, and I think it's very likely that some riders probably did. Not going to happen with modern bikes, even Royal Enfield.
Well Stuart, you can't blame Triumph for snooping on the worlds most successful motorcycle manufacturer. I think the key to R.E's success is their engines (like some Japanese engines) are under stressed with a transmission and drive train that is stronger than necessary which translates to longevity...as long as the electronics and fueling is robust. Like Harley Davidson, I think Triumph is over-rated and over priced. I've never owned a H.D. or Triumph and every Japanese bike I've owned (in 58 of my 78 years) has never left me stranded on the side of the road. Since I live in the U.S. I understand that Harley mentality very well!!! If you don't own a Harley you ain't shit. I haven't been to the local Harley dealer in several years, but it used to be one of my favorite things to do. I'd park my '01 Yamaha Roadstar right in front of their front door on a busy summer Saturday and take on their smart ass comments...like. Why did you buy that POS? Well, the main reason was I wanted a full size bike and also I don't care for the death wobbles you bike can have. I still have the Roadstar and two other's, If I were to buy a new bike it would be some version of RE's 650.
I have heard that our beliefs are as much a part of us as the nose on our face. And that our beliefs usually don’t change without some major “surgery”. I’ve also heard that our beliefs are so strong that they die about an hour after we die. When you talk about brand loyalty, you’re talking about people’s beliefs. They don’t just think their brand is best, they believe it. And as history shows us, people are willing to fight and die for their beliefs. Cuidado mi amigo. You’re poking a bear. Keep the shiny side up.😎👍
Any capitalist worth his salt would take superior qualities of various products to produce the best product for the best money to get the most sales. It seems to me that the 400s are their own product that was specifically designed and built to have a particular spec range at a particular price range, and less a "copy" of anything in particular.
The Japanese copied and improved what they saw which was great for the buyer, so go for it, the public votes by buying a good bike or not. Triumph have lost their way, long live the newcomer! If manufacturers are upset then make a better bike yourself, don't rip off your customer base and provide parts for years to come. It's a simple equation, most manufacturers forget in the race for profit.
I have owned two triumphs fairly recently and both had numerous problems and issues that were not common knowledge until after i had already owned them for a while, neither problem bikes were ever 100 % sorted and most of the sorting that was done was from my wallet not theirs , I currently own a Royal Enfield that i have only owned for six months or so but so far it far exceeds my expectations and already should i get rid of it i would be sad to see it go and would very likely only be changing it for another Enfield
Yes I said the Triumph 400 was possible too buy but along came the Royal Enfield Himalayan 450, is that a better buy for less that 500cc. IDK because unless I win a few grand I'm not buying a two motorcycle anyway.
If those bkes had number plates I would have come to the conclusion that they were the personal transport of Triumph workers haveing some maintanance done on the firms time. 🙂
Well Stuart you have to say things as they are. I've always has bullet proof Japanese bikes so why would I take a risk . Dosent matter yamaha honda kawasaki or suzuki served me well for 50 years.
I am sure all companies examine their competitors product. If they were copying the Interceptor they did a lousy job. That massive gap under the rear fender with the mono shock suspension makes me nauseous.
They can't even make a headlight that looks like a headlight. Makes the whole bike look like some kind of alien bug from a science fiction horror movie.
So true , it looked like they something to fill in the market and to compete throw a engine in a bajaj frame( since most of them have that gap between shock and fender like you said) and boom the 400 smtg happened. I guess the hunter 350 which really scared the middleweight motorcycle segment has it kinda classic bike brand trying to go modern and it worked brillantly , one of best for the roads and traffic kind off bike and its sales are higher than other bikes.
Very interesting, as far as the Japanese copying our bikes the only one I can think of is the BSA A10 (Kawasaki) and arguably the BSA Bantam (Yamaha) though to be fair they were a German DKW design given to BSA as war reperations!! It's still going on with Chinese rip offs of old Honda designs!! Cut throat world eh ??
My 2019 speed twin which I’ve owned from new and liked till now as it’s just failed the MOT warped brake discs when enquiring at triumph the response was never happens and yet there been cases of warped discs. Speaking to a triumph salesman the answer was don’t no mate I just sell bikes 😮. So as soon as bike repaired and mot’d it’ll e a KTM 390 adventure 🎉
If they had made a copy of the real RE 700 interceptor I would have bought one. I like the SVM Stormbreaker 1200 EVOLUTION Sportster as it is a bolt for bolt copy of the EVOLUTION Sportster. Stormbreaker is going to give the RE 650 a run for the money 💰. I know which one I would prefer.
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There is a term for it which I forget now, but, there is a mental disorder whereby people ignore evidence and substitute it with fantasy speculation to disprove the evidence! I'm seeing a lot of Triumph devotees suffering from that in these comments. My Experience with Triumph is similar to yours Stuart and when they deserve to be called out you are right to call them out, well done very fair video!
"Straw manning"? A straw man is when someone replaces or misrepresents another persons argument with one they never made, in order to make it easier to refute. Or it could be displacement, a psychological term that says people project on to others failings they themselves exhibit, because it's easier than dealing with it. Both are common on the internet and in politics.
@@borderlands6606 No, I think it's more like "Confirmation bias", cherry picking evidence that supports your belief and ignoring that which contradicts it.
Cognitive Dissonance?
Hard to say since I am American; the word "American" comes to mind!
The term you are looking for is "wife".
All manufacturers do it. Ford pulled a Mini apart in the 60s to see how Austin were making it for the money and decided they were making it for a loss, which turned out to be true!
Everyone does it. Doesn’t hurt to know what’s going on with the opposition. Enfield will be doing it too. It’s actually good that the lower end of the engine capacity range has been pushed along a bit by Enfield. The other manufacturers have had to wake up a bit and that’s good for motorcycling in general as there’s lots of choice now.
🤣😂 every once in a while Stuart likes to wind the Triumph fans up and they take the bait every time! 😜
🤪
Morning Stuart, I have owned a few bikes in my time my favorite being my Noton 750 commando which I rode back in the 80's. I am now 63 years old and have a 2014 Triumph T100 .I have had small issues with it but nothing major. Anyone who thinks they can buy a motorcyle of any brand and think they will have a lifetime of trouble free riding are in for a shock.Any motorcycle can have or develop a problem over time . We buy our bikes because we like how they look and put our own stamp on them either cosmetically or for performance. I enjoy your channel Stuart but you are coming across as being a bit anti triumph these days. I like the Re's they too have some nice looking bikes . You are in a privalaged position Stuart that even if your Triumph broke down you have another 5 bikes you can ride most people dont you'll probably find that these are the guys that ride Japanese bike because of their reliability record.
It's the difficulties he had with Triumph in resolving his faulty transmission!
I agree and Triumphs are one of the most reliable machines out there 💯
They p all over the enfields as much as I like them 😊😊
If not for RE I doubt Triumph or Honda would have brought out this type of 400 and 350 models. Competitive pricing was also a RE game changer.
As a Triumph owner I have to admit, I love it when big corporations get caught with their knickers down. Great job Stu !!!!
Still got a coppers eye for suspicious activity then Stuart!
it may just be a case of triumph using competitor bikes for bench marking their own products its a very common practice in the car industry and i wouldnt be surprised if it was the same in the motorcycle industry basically the idea is to take a competing product and do a detailed analysis of the engineering and qc i would think most manufacturers from KTM,Honda and RE probably do the same
Yes I think I made that clear in the video!
Nothing new, I used to work in an industry where we bought competitors products to see how they worked, many times coming up with a better way of doing it :) The customer usually benefits so not all bad.
Morning Stewart. So many of my old mates winged when I bought a brand new XS650 Yamaha. But unlike my old Triumphs that I owned, that XS650 Yamaha started up first time every time no matter the weather. And unlike my, and my mates Triumphs all I had to do to go anywhere, I just put petrol in her. In short it did everything I wanted it to at the press of the starter and took me where I wanted to go, then back home. Rather like my Royal Enfield 650 Super Meteor! Safe cruising sir and wishing you well soon ...
I owned three Yamaha XS650s, all Special models, a 1979 and two 1983s. The Special was the cruiser version. Wonderful bikes. They managed to be nearly 100% reliable, and still retained lots of character, something completely missing from modern bikes.
I told my old mate if Yamaha still made them, I'd have bought that in place of my Royal Enfield. Yes they were a wonderful bike to own and ride.
I was getting interested in a T400 as a replacement for my Hunter 350 but after listening to you, I think I will wait for the Hunter 450 to be launched. I choose to ride these (sensible) size bikes these days as at 77 years young, I haven’t the strength to handle anything heavier/higher. Ps, in the past, I have owned a T100 (too bland and boring) and an Interceptor 650 (uncomfortable and heavy), so I do have 1st hand knowledge of them. I might add that the omission of a centre stand on the T400 is a real mistake! Keep up the good work Stuart, much appreciated.
yes absolutely amused by it Stuart, I did like the look of the original interceptor - what a beauty!
Hello Stuart from the state of Pennsylvania USA on the shores of Lake Erie near Canadian border. I am currently a Royal Enfield rider that has been riding various bikes for 56 yrs. I now ride a 2020 500 Trials with the red frame and really enjoy it. I am also hoping to add an Interceptor soon. Having ridden the older Triumph models in years long gone and can say that Triumph had the looks and handling advantage over many bikes back then. We are talking 1960's and 1970's. The problem I encountered with Triumph was reliability issues. Electrical problems abounded along with leaking gaskets and seals. Having owned some BSA's as well and comparing them to Triumph I would choose a BSA every time. They were better quality machines and I found them to be quite reliable. Handling was almost as good as Triumph but they just weren't as pretty. I have not had the opportunity to ride or own a modern Triumph but based on what you are reporting it sounds like the same old same old. They are quite beautiful but may not have the greatest of reliability. Perhaps I will get a chance to ride one at some point before I am too old to throw a leg over the saddle. At the age of 72 I am still going strong. Cheers from the USA and keep up the great work.
Stu, Levis used to be GREAT! They were well made, and they'd laugh at any abuse you could throw at them. As a boy, I had one pair for years; they went from blue to white. I played American football in them, camped in them, did dirty jobs in them, and so on. They held together. I was hard on that pair of Levis, but I had 'em for years. They laughed at whatever abuse a teenage kid could dish out to them.
They also fit well. Their sizing was consistent. I could just look for my size, grab 'em, and I knew that they'd fit the same, great way every time.
Then, in the early-mid 1990s, I needed a couple of pairs of jeans. I bought a couple of pairs in my size, and brought them home. They only lasted a matter of weeks. Instead of being made in the US as they had been, they were made in Guatemala or something. Instead of using heavy denim and good, thick, and strong thread, they skimped on both. I was like WTF?! Levi Strauss had taken a lead on this DEI crap back then vs. focusing on making the good, solid product that had made them famous. I haven't owned a pair of Levis since.
Harley-Davidson, like Triumph, trades on their name and history. They rely on slick marketing that recall their storied past. I've thought about getting a H-D, but they no longer make anything that I like as they used to do in the late 1990s to early 2000s. Plus, their bikes are overpriced. Unfortunately, the modern Hinkley Triumphs have gotten too expensive as well. Give me a Royal Enfield ANY day of the week! If I could, I'd have one of every model they make... 😁😁😁
But one thing is sure thriumph has their work cut for them , cause the 450 himayalan which RE released is a thing of beauty of engine and there is spyshots of it on a hunter 350 kinda frame .
Taking the triumph head on.
Codenamed guerrilla now.
Then the classic 650.
We are having the best time of biking in long Stu 🥳🥳😂
I'm trading the Scram for a new Himmy. It really is a cracking machine and ideal for off-roading.
My late father loved triumphs, but purchased Japanese bikes. He had a Yamaha 650 twin and he would often say that Triumph should reverse engineer it as a new bike.
‘Man Flu’ is life threatening, as all men know…. You’re a credit to the species Stuart, bravely battling on in the face of such adversity. Ambulance dispatched… 🙏
Good morning Stu. I enjoyed the video. Very thought provoking. It wouldn’t surprise me me at all if Triumph have designed the new 400 bikes using ideas from Enfield. I think Triumphs have been overpriced for years and they have losing sales to Enfield since the Interceptor was released. Hope you feel better soon.
Hi Stu, you've made some good points regarding Triumph however like any product you'll have problems, because manufacturers do not make every componant on their machines, they buy in from other companies.
Ive owned three Bonneville's and have never had problems. I purchased the Royal Enfield 350 meteor and from the off had problems with the headlamp misting up without it ever getting wet, Enfield said I'd have to wait a month for a replacement, after three months still no replacement.
I also got tired of it clonging engine noise when under load and its lack of power, so chopped it in for the interceptor, strait off i had electrical problems due to the masses of grease in the connectors on the relays, after intensive cleaning they started to perform better. Following that the clocks started misting up and Enfield did not want to know. I sold the interceptor and have returned to a Triumph speed twin 900 lets hope it performs better than what others have said theirs had. All manufacturers copy each other that has been going on since the proction of all automobiles and will continue to do so. Keep up the good articles.😊😊
Triumph can copy everything but the price tag.... of course, material and labor difference between RE and Triumph is a major factor... But when I purchased my 650 Interceptor.. in Ravishing Red !... it was a deciding fact. The additional... engine size, performance.. etc etc that Triumph offered wasn't worth the nearly $5000.oo price above the Interceptor.... I purchased the RE for what it wasn;t...... it filled my riding desires perfectly... local... Saturday coffee and pie .. distance touring... the Triumph might get there before me... but the Triumph rider will stop.. and won't get his helmet off by the time I pull up..... 😎
I remember back “in the good ole days” one could tell the make of a motorcycle from a distance…
same with cars, they all had their distinctive look.
nowadays I can’t tell what brand of car or motorcycle I’m looking at unless I see an emblem.
Copy cats? Yes indeed!
Excellent video Stuart. The Triumph 400’s are for sure just a rebadged Bajaj, with possibly some influence from RE 😊
Amusing indeed Stu.
One point I would make though is that 'benchmarking' of products is widespread and common in all industries and has been for probably 70 years or so. It makes sense really as it gives them a chance to see ways of improving or cost reducing their own offerings. I would always buy a bike which had all the best points on it in preference to one with weaknesses (like your Triumph gearbox?).
As for the outcry when you moved towards RE, fanboys and trolls are a fact of life these days and perhaps before too, but they didn't have the internet and social media to make things easy for them. Get well soon Stu. 👍
Hi Stu, everyone has had that cold and it is bloody horrible, far worse than Covid. Hope you feel better soon.
I had covid and all I got was kidney pain on the first day, then a mild head cold for a week following. My brother and his wife gave it to me, and they lost their smell and taste for like two weeks. Lol
I haven't had it. But I had Covid and it was the worst sickness I have had in 60 years on this planet.
Thanks Stuart! Very interesting, and something I have suspected for some time. My wife & I both ride Royal Enfields, and I must confess, I do lust after a Continental, if only to relive my rocker days😁
The thruth is that ideal form of bike has been sorted at mid 80 wich explain popularity of retros,from there it growth differrent kind of monstrosities in pursue of profits and extravagances made it prohibitely expensive and ower complicated .Indians figured it out by healthy common sense .
Hi Stuart. Perfect video once again like usually. I am pretty sure, that all manufacturers of bike cars ets. do the same way. They are looking over the shoulders of others. In case of RE and Triumph is sensible in that way, that most of engineers left in 2016 when Triumph decides for water cooled engines and moved into Eichel. Sound of air and water is like (Air - JSBach and Spring - Vivaldi) Both are very nice masterpieces, but make quite atmospere air - Bach is "da cappo di tutti capi".
In 2016 I bought both a T120 and a Classic 500 when it came to selling one I just couldn’t get rid of the classic so sold the Triumph. That being said I am currently looking for a first generation Street Triple as it is a fantastic motorcycle and I regret trading mine in many years ago. I believe both brands have their strengths but in the classic department RE just get it where Triumph are creating gorgeous looking bike which simply don’t have the classic feel. In this regards if Triumph are trying to learn from a superior brand (in my opinion) to improve their machines in a certain segment then fair play! Just as I would hope that if RE branched out into modern roadsters then they would look at the Street Triple for ideas. As people have said, there is a history of this in all industries and if it creates better products then it is all well and good. It is great to see the policeman in you is still fully active Stuart, keep up the good work
Poor old Ron. He brings his bikes in for one day to do a service during his lunch hour. Sadly the same day the photographer came in and took the pics. Ron got the blame and despite 9 kids and a mortgage he was sacked! Uncle Stu c’mon! Seriously tho my trophy 1215 is a direct copy but improved version of the R1200RT and when BMW complained to the man they said “sure we looked at it, took the best bits and improved the not so good bits”. It’s accepted practice to do it just don’t deny it Baldrick 😅
I think this case needs to be referred to Baker Street. Mr Holmes would definitely be interested…
Hello Stuart, I ride a 96 Triumph Adventurer 900 and it is a keeper as I would never sell it. This year I decided to get a smaller capacity bike for around town and better days in the winter. I test rode one of the new triumph 400. I found the build quality and character have slipped some what From chunky old 90's bikes. I then tried the Royal Enfield Interceptor and I did comment to my wife that there were similarities between the two at the time. I did ask myself the same question as this video myself. Hope you feel better soon Stuart.
Many years ago I created a fish hook with a weight on the shank which would cause the bait to drop at an angle useful for fishing rip rap. Giving the bait a more realistic swim path and longer exposure. I gave a half a dozen to my friend who fishes bass tournaments and he took third place in a large fishing tournament on the Connecticut River with three good sized smallies. A couple of the pros asked him what he used he showed them! I noticed in the next edition of Bass pro shops catalog there was my hook! 😢
Nice work Stu. I initially thought they were aiming at the Hunter, but regardless, they are obviously going after the Royal Enfield market, and I’m afraid that’s going to be a very uphill battle, due in large part to their inability to keep up with production the likes of what RE can put out.
Thank Stuart, very interesting, I to have recently moved away from Triumph and back to honda, Luck would have that I made a hansom profit of £1200 on an exstreamly low milage 2010 Bonneville SE from some also buying into the Triumph myth.. don't get me wrong, the bike was well put together, and I enjoyed it for the short time I had it. However, needing knee and hip replacements, it was a bit of a lump to move about when not riding. I now ride a Honda 600 Silverwing and a 1999 CB500, and what a pleasure to ride they both are obviously very different but very well engineered. After satisfying my Triumph itch, I have iam really enjoying my old steeds and just waiting to get an RE Interceptor when they drop in value.. but for me unfortunately they are really not dropping, especially for unmolested bikes.. I am really impressed of how RE have established themselves as the new superpower in the world of motorcycling.
One thing Triumph certainly didn't copy from Royal Enfield are those hideous golden fork legs, a complete misfit on a classic style bike like the 400. Thumbs up to Royal Enfield for resisting this awful fashion.
Gold doesn't belong anywhere on a motorcycle, unless it's pinstriping on the tank. Gold should exist as an investment in a vault, or on the bath taps of footballer's wives.
Very common & normal practice. Honda would purchase a variety of different manufactured cars prior or during a minor model change introduction to see possibilities of improvements to their own parts usually but not always Non IP parts. They would be tested continuously & copied with slight modifications or not. Common practice from cars to motorbikes, AC units etc etc. Normal manufacruring procedure nothing sinister or underhanded.
I have had my Triumph Tr-6 with a hard tail and magneto for 40 years and I have had less trouble with it than the newer ones. All l carry with me is a master link and a clutch cable. The new Triumph Bobber looks just like my hard tail Triumph Tr-6. I also have a Triumph TR25W . I know it is a rebadged BSA C-15 250 which is cool because I have 4 BSA C-15 in both street and dirt versions and my BSA 441 Victor.
I was once doing some contract work at the Jaguar Whitley research plant. There they had a couple of Lexus models that they were testing. All manufacturers assess their competitors products.
My late step-dad was Jaguar's senior test driver. He would regularly turn up at home in an E-Type, then in later years an XJS which would be bog-standard except maybe for a BMW alternator, or a Mercedes spark plug (you get the drift)...so this has been happening for decades.
Hello, Stu, I remember in 1969, Triumph at Meriden got hold of a brand new Honda CB750 for evaluation and testing, while they were road testing the Honda, the drive chain snapped. Edward Turner himself dismissed the Honda as cheap rubbish not worth further investigation purely based on the broken chain which wasn't even manufactured by Honda. How wrong he was, the Honda CB750 in single cam form proved itself to be an excellent motorcycle and was in production for about ten years until the DOHC version arrived.
In 1971, Benelli got hold of a Honda CB500, they stripped it down and copied the motor with slight changes to the cylinder block angle and the cylinder head finning, they installed it in their own chassis and created the Benelli 500 Quattro in 1972. The motors of all the 1970's and 1980's Benelli fours and sixes from 350cc to 900cc were based on that original Honda CB500.
Rolls Royce put a different radiator grill on the front of their Seraph and called it a Bentely Arnage. Indeed, if you open the passenger door on an Arnage (4.4 model) you will see the manufacturers plate: "Made by Rolls Royce, Crewe, England". The irony being it had a BMW engine...
I love the introduction. It was a hoot watching the man in the purple shirt jump on the motorcycle and struggle to find the foot pegs!
WE DO NOT DISCUSS THE FOOTPEGS! 😆
I've often wondered about the relationship between Royal Enfield and Triumph. I understand they share testing facilities and former frame designers, but of all the places in Britain RE could have chosen to build a head office, it's as a neighbour in an unremarkable corner of the English midlands. Either the relationship is cosier than we imagine, or it's the biggest two-fingered salute in commercial history.
The Bruntingthorpe location was a no brainer with the test facility on site.
RE has made a small miracle in lifting their products up to the forefront internationally. From a forgotten "made in India" brand to something really desirable seen with western eyes. And we bikers are both picky and conservative, and we tend to stick to our "old" brand no matter what. How they did it should be obligatory studies everywhere that marketing and branding are studied and taught. Sid Lal and his team are the rockstars in the motorcycle industry, and they made it by catering to a need we did not even know existed just a short time ago. No wonder if Triumph and others want to see how it should be done. And take a peek at their products. And learn the necessary lesson. Kudos to Triumph for the new 400:s, no matter what trigged it but they should have caught on earlier. But still, they made the right move and will propably sell quite a lot of those new, smaller bikes. As long as they have the sense to keep the pricing competitive.
im sorry but i have to ask, what seat is shown on the enfield at 5:50, ive been looking around for a seat styled like that and havent had much luck
Just so cleaver observations and thoughs, as usual on you, Stuart.
The best regards from Navarra, Spain. Your come whenever you whises to ride our mountains.
Your loyal viewer, Emmanuel.🤘😎👌
España a great motorcycling friendly Country, Greetings from Valencia.
@@brianperry Bon día, soc valençià ✌😉
Ive had my trident for 9 months and its booked in for the second recall, love the look, ride and sound of the bike but not as well put together as my last bike a cb300r.
early water cooled triumphs were said to be based on the gpz900 ?
I had Trophy 1200 frame No 60. The engine certainly had the look of a Kawasaki lump
Yes and Kawasaki parts could be used.
Great video Stu and thought provoking. As for copying British motorcycles. Meguro under license produced the BSA A10. Meguro fell into financial difficulties and were purchased by. Kawasaki Heavy Industries. Where they did take the under license A10, tore it apart..... Kawasaki W1. The rest aa they say is history. Keep up the good work 👍
Yeah, I have a 2001 W650, a repro of the original W1 brought out by Kawasaki. Absolutely brilliant bike, love it. But, all the NEW Triumph riders think it a copy of a Bonnie 😅😄😁🤣
Brilliant video as always Stuart and very amusing seeing the interceptor inside Triumphs R&D dept 😊👍🏻
My first modern Triumph was a 2009 675 Daytona. Lovely bike but loads of recalls and a failed Regulator/rectifier and a sticking EXUP valve. unacceptable on a bike costing so much. Chopped it in eventually for a 2016 Bonneville. Again nice bike, that is until the electrical problems started. Battery keeps going flat Even with a brand new battery. Left cylinder ignition coil failed (replaced by myself) and now it appears that the right cylinder ignition coil is going the same way. Triumph dealer not really interested and to be honest, for them to just diagnose what is wrong with it is just too expensive. I'll fix it myself (again) but this just shouldn't be happening. Bought an Interceptor in 2019 and it was perfect. So I had no worries when I chopped the Interceptor in for a Super Meteor. I won't be getting another Triumph, ever!
Guy i know retired [i work for the same organization] less than 1 year ago and proceeded to buy his dream bike, yes a Triumph Boneville. less than a year later he has traded it in at a massive loss. so much for fulfilling dreams.
Having just got back from test riding the Scrambler 400x I'm glad that Triumph have been copying other people's home work. The 400x is the bike I've wanted someone to make for a while, it's just a real shame that R.E. takes so long to release bikes here in the USA, I have been waiting for the new Himalayan arrive but it's taking way too long and I'm going to go with Triumph again. Maybe when the Scram 450 appears I'll give that a go.
Thanks for this video . Ive never owned a Triumph , but i do like the T100 - T120 , and the speed twin . I have owned ENFIELDS , and like there simplicity .
HaHa Absolutely brilliant video...I love the way you put it across it had me in stitches at one point i spat my coffee all over the place.BRILLIANT. 👍👍👍
Love it Stuart, brilliant bit of observational fun, I wonder how many people will not appreciate our Yorkshire sense of humour 😄
The Interceptor is owned by an employee of Triumph who didn't want to leave it out in the rain🤗. I've seen a video about Suzuki in which it was said that employees of Suzuki are encouraged to ride bixe made by other manufacturers.
So, are you actually saying that the emperor really has no clothes?
In all honestly, I read somewhere that when Royal Enfield was setting up their Tech Center in the UK, it so happened that Triumph had recently completed most of its engine design work, and so had determined that much of its design staff were no longer needed. So, as the folks who had been working at these jobs were made redundant, Royal Enfield snapped many of them up. So perhaps there may be some Triumph DNA in some of the Royal Enfield engines.
Now I may be totally wrong on this, but it is, in my experience, that different companies are competing in the same industry, some of them are on a downward trajectory while others are on an upward swing. So people working in that industry move from company to company depending on who needs the people with the required skills. So after 40 or so years in the industry in which I was employed, I was familiar with many people who were now working for competitors, and would bump into them from time to time.
Triumph were complacent about Sid Lal's plans for RE, and the projected twins… until the former Hinkley guys were taken on (along with others from around the World's motorcycle industry) to develop the new bikes.
It's said that now, new tech employees of Triumph, have it written into their contracts that if they leave, they're not allowed to work for RE until a certain period of time has elapsed.
Triumph were handed a small 'out' by Sid Lal when he decided to build the twins to comply with A2/LAM etc. licence restrictions to widen their market appeal… Triumph saw they couldn't compete with the new 650s (at the price) and moved their retro twins up to a bigger capacity, higher priced, market sector instead.
Hey Yep from Spain! Last year I bought one of my dreams bikes, swaping my Honda CB500F for a Triumph Street Cup used selled and garantees by the oficial Triumph dealer in my zone. The bike has wire issues because the design of the semibars and they didn't want to fix it. A very nightmare and I figures out they didn't do the brake fluid change, the valve check and more things.
They also give it me back with a clock glass shuttered, also saying they didn't. If I want to replace my self the display clocks codt 1000€ due to it has the ECU inside....
My problem here is that they also are Royal Enfield dealership.
If I replace my triumph it will be the Continental GT without a doubt!
Thanks for your videos.
Yeah I think you're right on that one, also it's further have Ktms and otidirt bikes in the photo & theve just launched "there" version of the TF 250 which looks very similar to the ktm& Husqvarna..I reckon the big single super moto style bike will be be next..🤔???
Just to point out that a large part of the design of the new Himalayan was probably done by the ex Triumph engineers in UK that Enfield poached? Secondly the best selling Brit bikes post war were copied from DKW. I wish both companies the very best…there’s room for both and competition is good for everyone……otherwise you end up with NVT.
well they didn't kidnap the staff and hold them prisoner did they? I think there was a huge amount of free will involved and my conversations with ex Triumph staff suggests they have a huge staff turnover so..... its not really the same thing is it.
Great detective work 💯. Interesting isn't it 😅, have a great day 😁 xx
Good work.
The Triumph certainly looks like a Royal Enfield. I had to spot the Triumph badge in the tank to see which one I was looking at.
As you were making your point I was like "those new triumph 400's look so good" indirectly this video helped me decide 😅
Levi's bought the design for riveted reinforcement off a tailor , in terms of Triumph repair, you might want to look at a hook up with "the wurks" like Freddie Dobbs if you still have it.
I love going out on a warm summers day on my interceptor and it amuses me when bmw and triumph owners try really hard not to look at my bike. But in the end they all fail and cant help themselves 😅
You make some excellent points on Triumph running purely off history and tradition these days...which is quite funny considering they've been building in Thailand for almost 20 years! I used to own a Thruxton 900 which i sold a year ago. I bought it brand new in 2015 for $15990 AUD. The newer Thruxtons are over $25000 in dealers these days, its absolute madness! Apart from the new 400s, Triumphs are significantly overpriced compared to other motorcycles on the market. A new Speed Twin 900 will set you back almost $16000 here, whereas a new Interceptor is priced under $11000. Not sure where the additional $5000+ worth of bike is? Maybe a slightly nicer finish, bit more grunt and some better parts/features, but not over 5 grands worth! They, as well as the owners/fanboys which admittedly did include me until recently, claim all this heritage and history, yet they are built in Asia and have been for some time. Suppose you have to charge a hell of a lot more for your product though and rely more heavily on marketing if you're selling in a year what Enfield sell in a month....
Great video
It wouldn't surprise me in the least. Evaluating competitors products seems to me entirely natural. We did it back in the war with captured equipment. It's the same thing. It enabled us to produce better fighters, or tanks. I don't know if it's copying, as such, but it will enable them to compete in the same market, even if they might lag behind. If BSA, or whoever, had been more on the ball back in the day, they might not have continued producing outdated designs.
Triumph obviously use other competitors motorcycles as development targets. RE is a direct competitor and IMO RE produce (in the case of the Interceptor) a better value and more reliable bike than the T100.
With all the manufacturers and models out there, how do you come up with a totally different look? In my opinion, to somewhat copy an idea that's "really" working is a compliment that works out to the consumers advantage. My next comment might seem horrendous and not to demean any company or personal feelings but some of the new all electric vehicles will probably never share garage space with my beautiful petrol burners. At my antigue age l'm safe to make this comment. LOL. 👍👍5🏍🙋♂️
We have this problem in the states with politics
"there is a mental disorder whereby people ignore evidence and substitute it with fantasy speculation to disprove the evidence!" . Motorcycles not so much...
MAGA?
Cant get more open and honest than a triumph obviously 🙄
looks more like a Hunter to me, the seat in particular.. That would be a good market to targe too..
Sandy munro does this for car companies, he is on youtube and dismantles cars for rival manufacturers.
You seem to have it in for these 400's and I'm not sure why.
Then you must live under a rock!
Yeah they all do it. You won't convince me that, for instance, Ducati didn't have a Tenere and a GS torn apart before making their Desert X.
The answer is clearly no. There is none of the key elements of an RE Interceptor in the Triumph. But of course they are aiming at the same group of customers, but they are using the same platform as KTM and of course Bajaj.
Have you taken one apart to verify that?
@@stuartfillingham air cooled vs water cooled, one cylinder vs two cylinders, built by bajaj, who have their own platform... I see no similarities other than developed and made in India.
I mean there is quiet bit of change in quality of a street twin and the Triumph, cause we all know that triumph had a name has one of the best built bike of perfect quality. ,Which is true but the 400 ones surely had a downgraded quality in comparison to it other model range,( i agree the other one are more expensive ),but they are fighting the market with Royal Enfield who own that make and have quality very close the higher end models of the Triumph.
400 seems like a triumph built engine, set up on a bajaj frame and all the out exterior fit. I just speculative here has i tried the bajaj dominor 400 and triumph 400.
Why i bring the quality comparison is , that is the part which RE nailed with less money . And triumph gave too much for rider and overpriced.
@@mikaelpettersson2389 What a naive reply! For a start they have sourced exactly the same switch gear and some braking components from the RE. Although RE has now upgraded to a higher spec. There are hundreds of components in a bike, not just an engine. Also all Bajaj products used licenses technology none of it owned by them!
The answer is clearly yes! the switches and master cylinder are exactly the same as those on my Interceptor, although I think Enfield has now upgraded to better quality ones now!
It's amazing just how much better that 1960s Interceptor looks than the new one. Just look at the chrome and polished aluminum on that bike. Compare that with all the black everything on the new one. I owned a 1966 Triumph Bonneville for more than 20 years. Bought it in 1988. I was very happy with it. It was a beautiful and fun bike, unlike anything that Triumph makes today. Lots of chrome and aluminum, and the tank was bright blue and white two tone, separated by a chrome emblem. Of course the same can be said about pretty much all motorcycle manufacturers. Yes those old bikes had their problems, but most of them were more from poor build quality and material quality than anything being wrong with the designs. When things did go wrong, they could be worked on. You could almost rebuild one beside the road, and I think it's very likely that some riders probably did. Not going to happen with modern bikes, even Royal Enfield.
Well Stuart, you can't blame Triumph for snooping on the worlds most successful motorcycle manufacturer. I think the key to R.E's success is their engines (like some Japanese engines) are under stressed with a transmission and drive train that is stronger than necessary which translates to longevity...as long as the electronics and fueling is robust. Like Harley Davidson, I think Triumph is over-rated and over priced. I've never owned a H.D. or Triumph and every Japanese bike I've owned (in 58 of my 78 years) has never left me stranded on the side of the road. Since I live in the U.S. I understand that Harley mentality very well!!! If you don't own a Harley you ain't shit. I haven't been to the local Harley dealer in several years, but it used to be one of my favorite things to do. I'd park my '01 Yamaha Roadstar right in front of their front door on a busy summer Saturday and take on their smart ass comments...like. Why did you buy that POS? Well, the main reason was I wanted a full size bike and also I don't care for the death wobbles you bike can have. I still have the Roadstar and two other's, If I were to buy a new bike it would be some version of RE's 650.
I have heard that our beliefs are as much a part of us as the nose on our face. And that our beliefs usually don’t change without some major “surgery”. I’ve also heard that our beliefs are so strong that they die about an hour after we die. When you talk about brand loyalty, you’re talking about people’s beliefs. They don’t just think their brand is best, they believe it. And as history shows us, people are willing to fight and die for their beliefs. Cuidado mi amigo. You’re poking a bear. Keep the shiny side up.😎👍
Well that was a bit of fun. Of course everyone does it, see how the competition do it, but get caught doing it? 😂😂
Now the most important question at the factory is who stole the headlight bulb from this Interceptor? 😅😅
If you have seen the images of the up coming Honda 350 " scrambler" it looks incredibly similar to the outgoing Himalayan 411.
Any capitalist worth his salt would take superior qualities of various products to produce the best product for the best money to get the most sales.
It seems to me that the 400s are their own product that was specifically designed and built to have a particular spec range at a particular price range, and less a "copy" of anything in particular.
The Japanese copied and improved what they saw which was great for the buyer, so go for it, the public votes by buying a good bike or not. Triumph have lost their way, long live the newcomer! If manufacturers are upset then make a better bike yourself, don't rip off your customer base and provide parts for years to come. It's a simple equation, most manufacturers forget in the race for profit.
I would love to own 3 Royal Enfields! My Conti GT 650, a Super meteor and then it will be a toss up between a 450 Himalayan or a Classic 500.
I have owned two triumphs fairly recently and both had numerous problems and issues that were not common knowledge until after i had already owned them for a while, neither problem bikes were ever 100 % sorted and most of the sorting that was done was from my wallet not theirs , I currently own a Royal Enfield that i have only owned for six months or so but so far it far exceeds my expectations and already should i get rid of it i would be sad to see it go and would very likely only be changing it for another Enfield
Yes I said the Triumph 400 was possible too buy but along came the Royal Enfield Himalayan 450, is that a better buy for less that 500cc. IDK because unless I win a few grand I'm not buying a two motorcycle anyway.
If those bkes had number plates I would have come to the conclusion that they were the personal transport of Triumph workers haveing some maintanance done on the firms time. 🙂
Well Stuart you have to say things as they are. I've always has bullet proof Japanese bikes so why would I take a risk . Dosent matter yamaha honda kawasaki or suzuki served me well for 50 years.
Triumph buy in all the relevant new models from their competitors, loads of them in the building/stores.
I am not sure that it's the Interceptor that provides the inspiration for the Triumph 400! It looks more like the RE Hunter to me!
Imitation is the highest form of Flattery. That being said , every Bike Company takes a close look at the competition.
I am sure all companies examine their competitors product. If they were copying the Interceptor they did a lousy job. That massive gap under the rear fender with the mono shock suspension makes me nauseous.
They can't even make a headlight that looks like a headlight. Makes the whole bike look like some kind of alien bug from a science fiction horror movie.
So true , it looked like they something to fill in the market and to compete throw a engine in a bajaj frame( since most of them have that gap between shock and fender like you said) and boom the 400 smtg happened.
I guess the hunter 350 which really scared the middleweight motorcycle segment has it kinda classic bike brand trying to go modern and it worked brillantly , one of best for the roads and traffic kind off bike and its sales are higher than other bikes.
Very interesting, as far as the Japanese copying our bikes the only one I can think of is the BSA A10 (Kawasaki) and arguably the BSA Bantam (Yamaha) though to be fair they were a German DKW design given to BSA as war reperations!! It's still going on with Chinese rip offs of old Honda designs!! Cut throat world eh ??
Brilliant video , sooner have the interceptor ..
My 2019 speed twin which I’ve owned from new and liked till now as it’s just failed the MOT warped brake discs when enquiring at triumph the response was never happens and yet there been cases of warped discs. Speaking to a triumph salesman the answer was don’t no mate I just sell bikes 😮. So as soon as bike repaired and mot’d it’ll e a KTM 390 adventure 🎉
I think they all check eachothers motercycles.
If they had made a copy of the real RE 700 interceptor I would have bought one. I like the SVM Stormbreaker 1200 EVOLUTION Sportster as it is a bolt for bolt copy of the EVOLUTION Sportster. Stormbreaker is going to give the RE 650 a run for the money 💰. I know which one I would prefer.
Yes i do think the 400 is like a cut down INT 650
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery; unless of course you don't admit it. It's called copyright for a very good reason.