I hope you have notified your insurance company. They consider wheel spacers a major modification. And they know it does not improve either steering geometry or handling.
Thanks for the advice. Have since removed them for better comparison and they will be going back on ASAP. I can’t speak in general of course but this car handles much better with them on, other than more of a tendency to tramline and slightly more torque steer. The extra steering feel, stability, positive turn and better ride are well worth the trade offs for me.
The 147 is a odd car, some tyres that are amazing in other cars wont be very good in the 147 chassi, best tyres for it are the Pirelli PZero Rosso Assimetrico and the Bridgestone Potenza S04 Pole Position, i tried even Michelin Sport and the 147 dont like it.
been my bug bear for years..I see guys fitting coil overs, sway bars, strut braces and brakes with budget tyres..drives me mental...how can you understand how you car handles and rides on cheap rubber???
Goodyear F1 Asymmetric. 147s and GTs are extremely rubber-sensitive. The F1s are the best tyre I found for them, miles better than the Pirellis it had when I bought mine.
Simon a better softer tyre say a michelin ps4 will help, but it will not get rid of the harshness of those bloody Eibach pro coilovers, I had them on my GT, it was awful on a B road.
Little safety tip. When you remove a wheel, always place it under the car. That way if the jack were to fail in any way the car doesn't come down on you. Ask me how I know.
@@OrdinaryJoe12 LOL. Well maybe better to not crawl under it then. Mine's a bit of a story about how the car fell (not totally my fault) but the disc brake came within about an inch of cutting my toes off or at least crushing them if I had not put the wheel under the car.
@@neilg3364 Ok, you asked for it. Rhetorically? It was dark and stormy night. Literally. And when I say stormy I mean like biblical rain. It was so hard that I had to blink a lot because the rain drops hitting my eyes stung. Four of us were riding in the car of my friend's father. He was driving and saying how he didn't like to drive in the rain or the dark. I believe I even offered to drive. We came up to a detour where all three westbound lanes were shoved into the eastbound lane that was closest, only he didn't detour until it was too late. He hit the concrete curb of the median and launched the car. It hit so hard it flattened the front tire and bent the rim. He pulled over. We all got out. And as we stood getting drenched at the back of the car, all looking at the spare, I finally sprung into action since no one else was going to take action. I told the group very specifically and very emphatically to apply the hand brake. Maybe it was my fault by not singling out someone because, it didn't get done. When I removed the tire, I wasn't sure what to do with it and for the first time ever, I, for unknown reasons, decided to put it under the car. Maybe there is such a thing as a guardian angel. As I was working on the car, they were all talking at the back. Why they didn't get back in the car still puzzles me. Maybe they felt guilty that I was getting wet? Somehow during their conversation, someone leaned on the car, it came off the jack and onto the wheel I put underneath. This startled me as my foot was under the car at that instant and as I said earlier, the disc brake was about 1 inch (2.54 cm) above my toes. I don't know if say 800 lbs applied to a disk brake is enough to remove toes, but I'm certain it wouldn't have been pretty. I was very angry that no one was really doing anything useful, like applying the handbrake as I had asked. Anyway when we got to our destination, I was soaked from head to toe, even my underwear and my wallet were completely wet. But I had all my toes and the wheel always goes under the car now.
The only way to enjoy him is stock. I’d get rid of the rear shocks/springs, they’re just not designed specifically for the car,forget the spacers, to much stress on associated parts, and like everyone says, tires. Doesn’t matter what mods you the only thing connecting you to the road is an inch or so of rubber. Great content and you seem a genuinely nice guy.
Jack, 2 points: Dunlop sp sport maxx rt2 Left side light bulb. Other than that, you are the one that makes me like the busso. Coming from m52/n52 owner
@Antonio Farina Antonio, it will depend of how many miles you made in 5 years and the road conditions. I live in Brasil and my experience here where the distances are very large and the road conditions are not so good the bearings have a too short life when the wheels are positioned out of the original place. In São Paulo city is not uncommon to made 200 km in one day...
I have to agree with many of the other comments regarding the tyres. New rubber will have a very noticeable effect which will probably negate the use of the spacers. I would start with the tyres.
@Lassi Kinnunen yes of course I fully understand the transition the Busso has taken over the years I worked for Alfa Romeo for 12 years and owned several , my point being that through continual development it has stood the test of time
There’s much sort of archaic tech even in the ‘newest’ Bussos. What I like is there’s no variable valve timing on it. In a BMW you can notice the impact of Vanos and on a Honda of course the ‘VTEC kicks in yo’, but no such thing with the Busso - which adds to the pureness IMO.
3 of my cars have 20mm spacers. Integrale (14 years), Elise (7 years), Syncro Country 2 years. I have never replaced any wheel bearings and all cars have decent miles on them. Never noticed any difference with the handling. Look way better. I have no problem slapping on wheel spacers to give a more stealthy look and keeping the wheels stock- Well apart from the country which has silly big Ronals. The GTA looks way better with the spacers!
The best thing I ever did was installing Novitec lowering sport-springs and spacers on my Ferrari California-T. The wheels fill the arches perfectly and the slightly lower stance looks awesome.
Have spacers on my 3.0GTV - primarily so I can fit GTA teledials to the car, but the combination of these - decent tyres and the Q2 make the car feel like it's on rails. I remember my orignal 156GTA (RE02ELC - sadly no longer with us) I had from nearly new was an understeery beast without the Q2, but you can't beat a busso for engine noise and feel, love them to bits,
So a manufacturer spends billions on car development and yet people think £20-200 spent in Halfords is an improvement. Just stay standard or use the manufactures upgrade options.
car note sounds awesome 😎 remember a mate of mine many moons ago bought one of these brand new and we went for a blast on the motorway, still remember how quick and throaty that engine felt and sounded . brought back some old memories that did 😉👍🏻😎
We are on such similar trajectories....I’ve just fitted a spacer kit to the spider , 16mm at the front , and 20mm at the rear , looks a whole load better , “ seems “ a bit more compliant , got mine from Italy , hub centric and bolts included. Jury is out but I won’t be taking them off just yet, I need a few more miles to know for sure , but initial impressions were much the same as yours , the spider seems to be very sensitive to road camber and the spacers seem to accentuate this , more planted in corners and more direct and weighted steering. I’ve also a front strut brace . You seem to be starting to “ get “ the Busso , it’s not really about straight out power, the delivery is just so smooth and creamy , and that noise ...😍 A very special engine indeed , it elevates any car it’s in really . I look forward to the tyres , I think that’ll make quite a difference ...👍🏻
Jack. Took me a while to work out which roads you were on and at the very end I spotted it. That road to Charlbury with the right left and a dip and up the hill is great fun. Love the Alfa rasp on another really good video. Thanks.
Just picked up the 147 GTA from Autodelta, pilot sport 4 all round and new suspension and it has transformed the ride and handling! Gives the 205 GTI a run for its money now because of the front diff! I can’t contain my excitement in the pick up vid! Loving the red btw, looks amazing!
I haven't looked at the comments yet but I'm guessing there's a bunch of angry keyboard wizards who have never worked on a car telling you how unsafe a spacer is. Lol. I use them all the time and they are great if you need them. Love your content
Aesthetically looks great but not sure I favour them based on wheel bearing stresses etc. As everyone is banging on about, get some decent rubber on all 4 corners (I know it will cost more but the rewards are worth it) something with a good wet weather rating too, and get the geometry set and I think you will find more love for the beast. But oh the sound of that engine, bloody lovely 🥰🥰
Fantastic car, love the 147 especially the rarer ones, there's one called a Sport TS and people don't realise it handles even better than the standard 147, mine was called Figaro and on B roads my God it handled out arse whippings to everything from MX5's to 1 series nothing ever touched us but the car had been very poorly maintained before me and I ended up selling him for £300 and he was last heard of getting away from a police car a day after I sold him. Should've kept him, hate to think he got pushed into a lake or burnt, I hope you have great life with yours
Echoing the earlier warnings about spacers, especially if you are tracking the car. The thicker the spacer, the greater the stresses on the bearings. Also putting the spacers on only the front or the rear can be a tuning device. In general --+ too much understeer - add spacers to the rear wheels. Similarly, adding spacers to the front will decrease oversteer (increase understeer). This is a result of an increase of load transfer to the outside wheel with the spacer behind it.
10 years ago my fav tyre was the Pirelli PZero. In wet Scotland they were fantastic. The only issue was getting them, ATS was one of the only places that would get me them without trying to sell me the asymmetrical version and old stock
I'm not a fan of wheel spacers...the track was engineered that way for a reason. It will only put more stress on other areas, over time giving you more grief...Tyres man...Tyres ! Tyres are one of the "most" important aspects of a cars handling and performance. You could have the most powerful engine on the planet, but if your tyres are rubbish it means nothing. Cheers !
"the track was engineered that way for a reason" There is sometimes a little bit of variation in wheel offset that is still within tolerance. For example, old Subaru Imprezas were +55 offset on the factory wheels but aftermarket Speedline or Rays wheels made specifically for the Impreza WRX would tend to run a +49 offset. It's not uncommon for manufacturer special editions with widebody kits to accomplish the wider track **purely** through wheel offset, rather than through different hubs/control arms/steering: the Subaru 22B is an example of this. The wider track is done only via wheel offset, and the scrub radius on the steering and stresses on the wheel bearings is still within tolerance. :)
@@TassieLorenzo Point taken, however, if simple spacers made that much difference to the overall handling of a car, then why not engineer the car that way in the first place. Wheel offset, is not wheel spacers. Would the load be distributed differently from engineered wheels compared to add on spacers ?
Definitely looks better with spacers. Worth it for that alone. 20mm (40 in total) is quite a jump so you will accelerate wear on your wheel bearings and of course the tyres.
That was the Harry Metcalf S’s you drove through wasn’t it Jack? Great vid as usual 👏🏻👍🏼. FYI have spacers on my 996, fills out the arches but can’t say it drives any different
Had 1.5" wheel spacers on my 99 Toyota Avalon with its oem boaty suspensions. The cornering does feel a lot better in the back roads with the spacers on.
About the steering, check if all the bushs are ok in the front suspension, if everything is secure, and other thing if the steering is too light check the power steering fluid, if it is brown you need to flush ot and put new one and bleed the sistem, clean the canister very well as it has a filter inside that gets blockedm
I don't know enough "technical" bits and bobs to advise.... but that engine and exhaust note sound awesome - yes.... from someone with a proper old school V8 under the hood 😆. I'm glad that you are replacing those tyres.... for reasons that others have already commented upon. Enjoying the series Jack 👍👍
The only real benefit of spacers is clearance, to prevent wider rims from rubbing on brake calipers and other suspension bits. They'll move the contact patch outboard, (depending on the offset), which may affect the steering geometry. They'll also change the loading on parts of the suspension, (which is why they're technically illegal where I live), though modern engineering margins of strength probably render that inconsequential. As some of the other comments point out, reducing the unsprung weight is the goal, though it conflicts with rim and tire width aimed at increasing the contact patch. (As usual, with three goals, pick any two.)
I owned a 911 for about six years and I learned a bit about wheels and bolts. Apparently if you drive your car hard at a track day, these wheel bolts (or studs) can break. Hence I would be apprehensive about changing anything. Longer bolts. Nah. Invest your money in a case of Chianti. With my 911 I just applied a bit of silicon grease to the original studs -- so that the threads would not rust away in our cold Canadian winters.
I believe the other version of spacer is available because when spacers get very wide there would be too much stress on the very long studs. I have had both on my cars, and I have come to the same conclusion as you. I have a feeling they also increase the wheel weight so acceleration and braking is slightly numbed but it definitely feels more stable through the corners. I’d say as long as you don’t go crazy there isn’t any problem so long as you get wheel centric spacers.
Best way to diagnose a difficult suspension issue in my experience is to strip it completely and inspect/test each component independently. BTW wheel spacers wear out bearings quicker.
I would only buy spacers for stance or to fit some aftermarket alloys . I think you might find the other spacer with x2 bolts is actually a wheel adaptor to fit to ca rfor an alloy with a different stud diameter.i,e 114.8 pcd alloy can fit a 100.
Also another fact with spacers to consider is you are also increasing the weight the suspension has to deal with. The extra weight of the spacers and bolts is like bolting a much heavier wheel on the car. And god knows those oem Alfa cast wheels are not light weight, never mind with spacers and longer bolts fitted to the hub. You are creating more work for your eibach pro preset factory damping. As previously mentioned, when I decreased the unsprung weight by fitting forged lightweight wheels to my Alfa's wishbone chassis, ride quality improved.
Wider track doesn't change body roll at all, just the tip over point (meaning you can cary more speed) Also, its completely possible for spacers to effect sterring feel. One of the biggest factors in the steering feel of a car is its scrub radius
20mm is a lot. It puts a lot of stress on wheel bearings and other suspension components. Looks good though. If you dial in some negative camber front and rear during an alignment that will improve turn-in, steering feel and prevent the tires from nudging the arches. Enjoyed the vid again, cheers.
The “ more stress on wheel bearings” saying is total bullshit. Then why do people put wider aftermarket wheels and tires. He would get the same wear and tear if he had fitted wheels that stuck out 20mm more than factory. But yet wider wheels or wheels with less offset is ok. 😂😂
To make mounting wheels easier with spacers your can get essentially a long wheel bolt without a head that you thread in as a guide and pull out when the wheel bolts are snug. Lot of German cars come with them in the tool kit.
Wider stance is achieved from wheel spacers which will equate to better handling...the center of gravity has changed with the offset therefore the bumps are not transferred to the shock absorber as before so usually spacers is good move.. The arguments about the ill effects of spacers on the wheels bearings could be so but same with deep offset wheels..
Well from an engineering standpoint spacers will: Decrease roll angle slightly. Subsequently decrease weight transfer slightly. Decrease the effective spring rate slightly. On the other hand, they will: Majorly increase the scrub radius (therefore the more steering feel but also the more torque steer). Hugely increase the thrust loading on the bearings. A good way to improve the handling on a car like this is to get adjustable bushings and get the geometry a tad more aggressive. But I cant still grasp the obsession of having a car running on normal street tires on bumpy roads without almost any downforce run very stiff anti-roll bars. All tires have a load vs coefficient of grip curves and cars like the gta which are very heavy on the front can easily overload the tires if you go very hard or very soft. In order to alter the mechanical balance of the car I would suggest to harden the front arb and soften the rear let a bit more body roll occur and let the suspension do its camber gaining magic. These car have rear suspension that aids steering by altering its geometry mid travel. In order to get travel when cornering, you need some body roll. Get the car softer and you wont be disappointed especially in the winter where tires NEED TO BE LOADED TO PERFORM
Those spacers will have changed your scrub radius quite a bit. I guess alfa will have had to strike a balance with the geometry to keep bearing wear and such in check. Its definitely a science though.
Interesting. I never got on with the 20mm spacers on my B5 S4. The tracking would ‘wander’ in time. I’ve also read that using the type of spacer you prefer puts extra bending pressure on the longer bolts as they are obviously longer with more ‘unthreaded’ bolt not inside the threads. I also felt ‘subjectively’ that the S4 was much better in the corners when I went back to the OEM fitment. That being said, the B5 isn’t known for being a handling dream! Keep the videos coming.
@@Number27 It's not the bolts that hold the wheel against the hub... which sounds strange at first. When the bolts are tightened to the correct torque, in the right order, it's the friction between the wheel and the hub that keeps everything together. That's why you should never put any lubricant of any kind between wheel/hub/spacer... but many do, glad to see you didn't. You have fallen in love with the GTA... doomed. :)
Spacers induce wheel bearing failure (as many have already said). If the tyres are as old as some comments imply, then more fool you for not changing them (even for cheapest chocolate). You come across as a capable mechanic with a good understanding of what are becoming "heritage" cars. Some of your selections I like and comment on, the ones that I dislike - out of respect for choice - I stay quiet on. In short, spacers are a lot of hot air, unless you are making a show car on the cheap.
Spacers alter the distance between the centre of the tyre and the pivot point of the steering (normally the lower ball joint), so they can have quite a dramatic effect on handling and steering response, both negative or positive depending on the car. I've got 20mm spacers on my C4 VTS (the bolt on kind - I didn't want the ones with the long bolts because of the strain the extended bolts would have to take) and I'd say it's made the steering a little more nervous. Ride - I noticed no difference at all (it was cack before, and it's cack now). The one thing that is massively improved (and the sole reason I fitted them) was the looks. Vain, but true!
Spacers will just make it look different; whether better or worse is for you to judge. The 40mm extra track may improve outright cornering but you'll only notice when you get to the limit. On the minus side, you will have increased load on the suspension components, especially the bearings and axles, and you have actually slightly increased unsprung weight, which is never good, and you'll have increased tyre wear on the inner edges. Remember that if Alfa had thought an extra 40mm gave a worthwhile improvement they'ed have done it and adjusted the geometry to match! The best upgrade you can do is to get rid of those illegal tyres and get some new grippy ones that won't go bang and will give you the characteristics you want.
Had one for 12 months. Had uprated koni suspension, QDiff, larger wheels with sticky tires and a cross member bar to add stiffness and it still struggled... Ultimately the chassis was too soft to handle the awesome engine with FrWD. Lovely sound though.
Car looks good with the spacers, you could machine 5mm off if you’re not happy with them. Great choice with the Alfa, sounds awesome. Cheers from Down under.
Hi Jack, well you seem happy. Small outlay for small , but noticeable improvements. I get the theory, a wider stance offering more stability and less roll. However, you have increased unsprung weight and although by small amounts it's outside of the vertical axis of suspension. Possibly a penalty could be loss of traction when driven in extremis but for normal roads not so noticable. Might be even more improved with Q2 diff. Still smiles all round for now. Engine as always, sounds highly addictive!
Gotta say, teenage tuners everywhere are smiling...wheel spacers will create wheel bearing life issues because you've increased the moment arm wrt to the bearing's load angle. Changing road wheel offset (from factory) creates the same problem.
Apart from track width one thing wheel spacers do is change the roll centre of the vehicle as the centre line of the tyre is the axis point where the roll centre is calculated, usually widening the track will lower the roll centre but it depends where it is in relation to the centre of gravity as to how much difference this makes to the roll moment. Not only this but it changes the scrub radius which can effect steering feel. I've always thought they were a pretty pointless modification that was aesthetically based without any real thought about how they work, but If the car handles better with them on, then fair play, that's often the case with modifications some work, some don't and testing them is the real proof in the pudding so to speak.
Lots of people mentioning the extra stress on the bearings, which is true but back in the 1980's when every boy racer put them on their Minis and Escorts, it wasn't unknown for wheels to actually fall off. Extra long bolts maybe the same diameter but are weaker. I wouldn't want them on a performance car.
Ok if you widen the front track, you loose steering feel and you need more steering input for the car to corner. You can also create more under steer at speed with a much increased front axle width. You are correct in the physics with ride quality if anything improving with a wider axle width, it is never a game changing change as you found. I really think you need to get rid of the coilovers and go for a quality progressive rate spring and damper setup, get rid of the crash and banging feel of the eibach pro S kit. I had it on my GT it was bloody awful, I sold them on. Most of the German coilover manufacturers do not configure their coilovers for our uk poor road surfaces. Really enjoyed the video. :-)
Interesting. I wonder if things would be even better after an alignment as I am sure the extra 20mm track each side will have interferred with the geometry slightly.
not much power for the engine size u say i think a set of longtube headers and some fiddeling around with the engine management system sorts that out :)
1. New rubber. 2. Wheels with slight changes make perhaps more sense... 3. Spacers introduce a layer of failure points...you need to torque them a bit, etc., check them, etc. and wheel bearings can suffer.....that being said, even Porsche had them at one time as an option (5mm I think).....so mild ones are probably fine but 2cm ones....no......had them on a 996TT with a blueprinted engine....coilovers/corner balanced, etc....tracked it..5mm no issues.....but I was anal about torque (nuts....), etc. In the above case, it helped handling over 8/10ths for me. My 8/10ths might be your 2/10ths... Under 8/10ths did not notice anything. Looked better as another person noted. No longer have the car. PS: You did the most important thing in getting ones that are hubcentric (have the centering ridge). I realize that once tight the material to material is the issue, so this is moot, but I always liked having that peace of mind to get it perfectly centered. And quality goes without saying....I liked a German brand in the past...came with a nice wider-is-better decal at the time....won't say the brand but they do a lot of these and springs and I think other stuff. Love the car and great videos. jeff
Fitting wheel spacers will increase the positive scrub radius at the front wheels which has some unfavourable consequences. ... Any bumps in the road will also be amplified through the steering wheel, making the steering jerky and more unpredictable. During braking, , if braking effort is greater on one side of the vehicle than the other, positive scrub radius will cause the vehicle to veer towards the side with the greater effort. It therefore requires much higher driver involvement and also competence to maintain control and stop the vehicle being tugged into puddles.
ah spacers. Increased torque-steer, more bushing wear and so on and so forth. Braking stability, especially when in more slippery conditions is compromised. New tyres is the best idea, actually.
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I hope you have notified your insurance company. They consider wheel spacers a major modification.
And they know it does not improve either steering geometry or handling.
Thanks for the advice. Have since removed them for better comparison and they will be going back on ASAP. I can’t speak in general of course but this car handles much better with them on, other than more of a tendency to tramline and slightly more torque steer. The extra steering feel, stability, positive turn and better ride are well worth the trade offs for me.
Grass
13 year old tyres are the elephant in the room.
Money well spent changing them
The 147 is a odd car, some tyres that are amazing in other cars wont be very good in the 147 chassi, best tyres for it are the Pirelli PZero Rosso Assimetrico and the Bridgestone Potenza S04 Pole Position, i tried even Michelin Sport and the 147 dont like it.
And its got a thicker anti roll bar , which will stiffen the ride
If you get the right tyres, many of the issues you describe will disappear or be mitigated. Love this series, BTW.
Those tyres need to go
been my bug bear for years..I see guys fitting coil overs, sway bars, strut braces and brakes with budget tyres..drives me mental...how can you understand how you car handles and rides on cheap rubber???
Goodyear F1 Asymmetric. 147s and GTs are extremely rubber-sensitive. The F1s are the best tyre I found for them, miles better than the Pirellis it had when I bought mine.
Simon a better softer tyre say a michelin ps4 will help, but it will not get rid of the harshness of those bloody Eibach pro coilovers, I had them on my GT, it was awful on a B road.
But then there would be no journey of discovery and a set of videos 😉
Little safety tip. When you remove a wheel, always place it under the car. That way if the jack were to fail in any way the car doesn't come down on you. Ask me how I know.
what if you are twice the width of the wheel
@@OrdinaryJoe12 LOL. Well maybe better to not crawl under it then. Mine's a bit of a story about how the car fell (not totally my fault) but the disc brake came within about an inch of cutting my toes off or at least crushing them if I had not put the wheel under the car.
How do you know?
@@neilg3364 Ok, you asked for it. Rhetorically?
It was dark and stormy night. Literally. And when I say stormy I mean like biblical rain. It was so hard that I had to blink a lot because the rain drops hitting my eyes stung. Four of us were riding in the car of my friend's father. He was driving and saying how he didn't like to drive in the rain or the dark. I believe I even offered to drive.
We came up to a detour where all three westbound lanes were shoved into the eastbound lane that was closest, only he didn't detour until it was too late. He hit the concrete curb of the median and launched the car. It hit so hard it flattened the front tire and bent the rim. He pulled over. We all got out. And as we stood getting drenched at the back of the car, all looking at the spare, I finally sprung into action since no one else was going to take action. I told the group very specifically and very emphatically to apply the hand brake. Maybe it was my fault by not singling out someone because, it didn't get done.
When I removed the tire, I wasn't sure what to do with it and for the first time ever, I, for unknown reasons, decided to put it under the car. Maybe there is such a thing as a guardian angel. As I was working on the car, they were all talking at the back. Why they didn't get back in the car still puzzles me. Maybe they felt guilty that I was getting wet? Somehow during their conversation, someone leaned on the car, it came off the jack and onto the wheel I put underneath. This startled me as my foot was under the car at that instant and as I said earlier, the disc brake was about 1 inch (2.54 cm) above my toes. I don't know if say 800 lbs applied to a disk brake is enough to remove toes, but I'm certain it wouldn't have been pretty. I was very angry that no one was really doing anything useful, like applying the handbrake as I had asked. Anyway when we got to our destination, I was soaked from head to toe, even my underwear and my wallet were completely wet. But I had all my toes and the wheel always goes under the car now.
@@ProfessorOzone thanks for sharing. I hate working under cars, I'm paranoid. Had four axle stands just up front the other day when doing ball joints.
The only way to enjoy him is stock. I’d get rid of the rear shocks/springs, they’re just not designed specifically for the car,forget the spacers, to much stress on associated parts, and like everyone says, tires. Doesn’t matter what mods you the only thing connecting you to the road is an inch or so of rubber.
Great content and you seem a genuinely nice guy.
Jack, 2 points:
Dunlop sp sport maxx rt2
Left side light bulb.
Other than that, you are the one that makes me like the busso.
Coming from m52/n52 owner
Wheel bearings do not appreciate wheel spacers too much...
Exactly
It depends on the offset, the offset can also affect torque steer...
And in this case, using the original wheels with spacers the offset is of...
@Antonio Farina Antonio, it will depend of how many miles you made in 5 years and the road conditions.
I live in Brasil and my experience here where the distances are very large and the road conditions are not so good the bearings have a too short life when the wheels are positioned out of the original place.
In São Paulo city is not uncommon to made 200 km in one day...
Spacers are for teenagers
I have to agree with many of the other comments regarding the tyres. New rubber will have a very noticeable effect which will probably negate the use of the spacers. I would start with the tyres.
When you consider that engine was designed in the 70s it really is a gem even in 2020 . Glad to see there’s some new rubber on the way too 👍🏻
@Lassi Kinnunen yes of course I fully understand the transition the Busso has taken over the years I worked for Alfa Romeo for 12 years and owned several , my point being that through continual development it has stood the test of time
60s design.
@@HappyDaysNI ah no it was designed early 70s then was put in the Alfa 6 in 1979
There’s much sort of archaic tech even in the ‘newest’ Bussos. What I like is there’s no variable valve timing on it. In a BMW you can notice the impact of Vanos and on a Honda of course the ‘VTEC kicks in yo’, but no such thing with the Busso - which adds to the pureness IMO.
@@kasimirdenhertog3516 Alfa was the first to use variable valve timing.
3 of my cars have 20mm spacers. Integrale (14 years), Elise (7 years), Syncro Country 2 years. I have never replaced any wheel bearings and all cars have decent miles on them. Never noticed any difference with the handling. Look way better. I have no problem slapping on wheel spacers to give a more stealthy look and keeping the wheels stock- Well apart from the country which has silly big Ronals. The GTA looks way better with the spacers!
I can't speak highly enough for the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S. Very quiet, comfortable, and grippy even in cold, wet temperatures!
I'm glad that you are changing the tyres, that engine sound is glorious, well worth whatever issues turn up.
Any improvements are between your ears but the look is indeed better!!!
The best thing I ever did was installing Novitec lowering sport-springs and spacers on my Ferrari California-T. The wheels fill the arches perfectly and the slightly lower stance looks awesome.
Have spacers on my 3.0GTV - primarily so I can fit GTA teledials to the car, but the combination of these - decent tyres and the Q2 make the car feel like it's on rails. I remember my orignal 156GTA (RE02ELC - sadly no longer with us) I had from nearly new was an understeery beast without the Q2, but you can't beat a busso for engine noise and feel, love them to bits,
So a manufacturer spends billions on car development and yet people think £20-200 spent in Halfords is an improvement. Just stay standard or use the manufactures upgrade options.
Manufacturers leave room for snow chains.
He’s not still on those ancient tyres 🙄?
Spacers? Just buy some wheels that fit.
I love the smile on your face when driving the GTA. I bought one 2 days ago, cant wait to take delivery:)
Wow, you’ll love it!! By the way much better with spacers. It ok them off again and will Now put them back on. But I would maybe stick to 10mm
car note sounds awesome 😎 remember a mate of mine many moons ago bought one of these brand new and we went for a blast on the motorway, still remember how quick and throaty that engine felt and sounded . brought back some old memories that did 😉👍🏻😎
Spacers without 4 wheel alignment are a bad idea. It’s guaranteed to change the attitude of the wheel. Get a good alignment with your new tires man.
We are on such similar trajectories....I’ve just fitted a spacer kit to the spider , 16mm at the front , and 20mm at the rear , looks a whole load better , “ seems “ a bit more compliant , got mine from Italy , hub centric and bolts included.
Jury is out but I won’t be taking them off just yet, I need a few more miles to know for sure , but initial impressions were much the same as yours , the spider seems to be very sensitive to road camber and the spacers seem to accentuate this , more planted in corners and more direct and weighted steering.
I’ve also a front strut brace .
You seem to be starting to “ get “ the Busso , it’s not really about straight out power, the delivery is just so smooth and creamy , and that noise ...😍
A very special engine indeed , it elevates any car it’s in really .
I look forward to the tyres , I think that’ll make quite a difference ...👍🏻
Thanks buddy... am loving the Busso!!!
Jack. Took me a while to work out which roads you were on and at the very end I spotted it. That road to Charlbury with the right left and a dip and up the hill is great fun.
Love the Alfa rasp on another really good video. Thanks.
Made a hell of a difference on my Audi S5, along with lowered adjust coil overs 👌😷 great looking stance as well 👍
Fab stuff, great to see you smile. Keep well.
Just picked up the 147 GTA from Autodelta, pilot sport 4 all round and new suspension and it has transformed the ride and handling! Gives the 205 GTI a run for its money now because of the front diff! I can’t contain my excitement in the pick up vid! Loving the red btw, looks amazing!
Very envious, definitely the right choice of the pick. It sounds absolutely awesome!
I haven't looked at the comments yet but I'm guessing there's a bunch of angry keyboard wizards who have never worked on a car telling you how unsafe a spacer is. Lol. I use them all the time and they are great if you need them. Love your content
Totally agree.. and yes you’re right about the comments! 20mm spacer is perfectly safe.
Aesthetically looks great but not sure I favour them based on wheel bearing stresses etc. As everyone is banging on about, get some decent rubber on all 4 corners (I know it will cost more but the rewards are worth it) something with a good wet weather rating too, and get the geometry set and I think you will find more love for the beast. But oh the sound of that engine, bloody lovely 🥰🥰
That engine sound though......I like the look after the spacers. Wheel arches look more filled. A keeper mod!
13 year old tires will harden. You're really missing a major issue here, plus those poor bearings will suffer.
That smile at the end says it all, that 3.2 in my GT did the same thing to me
Would have gone for black spacers personally like BIMMEC, to blend in with wheels. Spacers do help fill the arches 👌🏻
Try throwing a bucket of water over it lol, my ocd is kicking in , oh and don't lean the wheel up against the paintwork .
if you had OCD you wouldnt throw a bucket of water over it..You'd take a tooth brush to the tyre tread like i do.
@@simonlloyd7557 that’s not how ocd works my guy different forms and different triggers
Easily one of the best RUclips channels! Always click straight on when your videos go up 👌🏾
Ah thanks Simod!!!
I’ve had wheel spacers for 2 years now . They are just incredible.
Fantastic car, love the 147 especially the rarer ones, there's one called a Sport TS and people don't realise it handles even better than the standard 147, mine was called Figaro and on B roads my God it handled out arse whippings to everything from MX5's to 1 series nothing ever touched us but the car had been very poorly maintained before me and I ended up selling him for £300 and he was last heard of getting away from a police car a day after I sold him. Should've kept him, hate to think he got pushed into a lake or burnt, I hope you have great life with yours
Echoing the earlier warnings about spacers, especially if you are tracking the car. The thicker the spacer, the greater the stresses on the bearings. Also putting the spacers on only the front or the rear can be a tuning device. In general --+ too much understeer - add spacers to the rear wheels. Similarly, adding spacers to the front will decrease oversteer (increase understeer). This is a result of an increase of load transfer to the outside wheel with the spacer behind it.
Are some of those roads featured in Harry's Garage as well?? 🤔
Yes. Great road to drive. Burford to Charlbury.
Thought I recognised that downhill right-hander!!
I was going to guess an overlap with the roads that Jayemm uses, but I don't know much about the geography of the UK.
I was thinking the same
10 years ago my fav tyre was the Pirelli PZero. In wet Scotland they were fantastic. The only issue was getting them, ATS was one of the only places that would get me them without trying to sell me the asymmetrical version and old stock
I'm not a fan of wheel spacers...the track was engineered that way for a reason. It will only put more stress on other areas, over time giving you more grief...Tyres man...Tyres ! Tyres are one of the "most" important aspects of a cars handling and performance. You could have the most powerful engine on the planet, but if your tyres are rubbish it means nothing. Cheers !
"the track was engineered that way for a reason" There is sometimes a little bit of variation in wheel offset that is still within tolerance. For example, old Subaru Imprezas were +55 offset on the factory wheels but aftermarket Speedline or Rays wheels made specifically for the Impreza WRX would tend to run a +49 offset. It's not uncommon for manufacturer special editions with widebody kits to accomplish the wider track **purely** through wheel offset, rather than through different hubs/control arms/steering: the Subaru 22B is an example of this. The wider track is done only via wheel offset, and the scrub radius on the steering and stresses on the wheel bearings is still within tolerance. :)
@@TassieLorenzo Point taken, however, if simple spacers made that much difference to the overall handling of a car, then why not engineer the car that way in the first place. Wheel offset, is not wheel spacers. Would the load be distributed differently from engineered wheels compared to add on spacers ?
Definitely looks better with spacers. Worth it for that alone. 20mm (40 in total) is quite a jump so you will accelerate wear on your wheel bearings and of course the tyres.
That was the Harry Metcalf S’s you drove through wasn’t it Jack? Great vid as usual 👏🏻👍🏼. FYI have spacers on my 996, fills out the arches but can’t say it drives any different
I have them on mine too snd it’s fine
I had a heavily modded RPM Technik 996 and on that it definitely made a difference in the tip over when entering a corner.
Put it all back to factory spec, good tyres all round and enjoy..... ; )
Had 1.5" wheel spacers on my 99 Toyota Avalon with its oem boaty suspensions. The cornering does feel a lot better in the back roads with the spacers on.
Your videos are excellent! Thank you for making them. You’re really good at this.
Very kind thanks!!
About the steering, check if all the bushs are ok in the front suspension, if everything is secure, and other thing if the steering is too light check the power steering fluid, if it is brown you need to flush ot and put new one and bleed the sistem, clean the canister very well as it has a filter inside that gets blockedm
I don't know enough "technical" bits and bobs to advise.... but that engine and exhaust note sound awesome - yes.... from someone with a proper old school V8 under the hood 😆.
I'm glad that you are replacing those tyres.... for reasons that others have already commented upon.
Enjoying the series Jack 👍👍
The only real benefit of spacers is clearance, to prevent wider rims from rubbing on brake calipers and other suspension bits. They'll move the contact patch outboard, (depending on the offset), which may affect the steering geometry. They'll also change the loading on parts of the suspension, (which is why they're technically illegal where I live), though modern engineering margins of strength probably render that inconsequential. As some of the other comments point out, reducing the unsprung weight is the goal, though it conflicts with rim and tire width aimed at increasing the contact patch. (As usual, with three goals, pick any two.)
It sounds so good. I have a 3.0 GTV and i love it.
I owned a 911 for about six years and I learned a bit about wheels and bolts. Apparently if you drive your car hard at a track day, these wheel bolts (or studs) can break. Hence I would be apprehensive about changing anything. Longer bolts. Nah. Invest your money in a case of Chianti.
With my 911 I just applied a bit of silicon grease to the original studs -- so that the threads would not rust away in our cold Canadian winters.
I believe the other version of spacer is available because when spacers get very wide there would be too much stress on the very long studs. I have had both on my cars, and I have come to the same conclusion as you. I have a feeling they also increase the wheel weight so acceleration and braking is slightly numbed but it definitely feels more stable through the corners. I’d say as long as you don’t go crazy there isn’t any problem so long as you get wheel centric spacers.
IT'S THE POLYURETHANE BUSHES!!! AAAAARGH!!
Best way to diagnose a difficult suspension issue in my experience is to strip it completely and inspect/test each component independently. BTW wheel spacers wear out bearings quicker.
That Alfa just sounds sooo great!
Wheel coverage is part of homologation, one aspect is to stop people following being covered in crap. Extra leverage being applied to bearings etc
I would only buy spacers for stance or to fit some aftermarket alloys . I think you might find the other spacer with x2 bolts is actually a wheel adaptor to fit to ca rfor an alloy with a different stud diameter.i,e 114.8 pcd alloy can fit a 100.
Great video ... great commentary.... but an we ha e a video with just Fredo rasping lol ... what a great soundtrack coming out of the exhaust.
Also another fact with spacers to consider is you are also increasing the weight the suspension has to deal with. The extra weight of the spacers and bolts is like bolting a much heavier wheel on the car. And god knows those oem Alfa cast wheels are not light weight, never mind with spacers and longer bolts fitted to the hub. You are creating more work for your eibach pro preset factory damping. As previously mentioned, when I decreased the unsprung weight by fitting forged lightweight wheels to my Alfa's wishbone chassis, ride quality improved.
The noise is lovely!
Wider track doesn't change body roll at all, just the tip over point (meaning you can cary more speed)
Also, its completely possible for spacers to effect sterring feel. One of the biggest factors in the steering feel of a car is its scrub radius
Wow, really interesting to hear that..
Yes it does, affect roll angle. But that’s not a bad thing. Compliance = grip.
Wider track lowers the roll centre so it does affect body roll.
@@davidw7155 not by any significant margin. We are litteralt talking 2-3mm dead max of lowering that roll center.
The A-post footage... GREAT!
20mm is a lot. It puts a lot of stress on wheel bearings and other suspension components. Looks good though. If you dial in some negative camber front and rear during an alignment that will improve turn-in, steering feel and prevent the tires from nudging the arches. Enjoyed the vid again, cheers.
And wear the tyres out quick!
The “ more stress on wheel bearings” saying is total bullshit. Then why do people put wider aftermarket wheels and tires. He would get the same wear and tear if he had fitted wheels that stuck out 20mm more than factory. But yet wider wheels or wheels with less offset is ok. 😂😂
Alfa. It is more than the sum of its parts. It just puts a smile on your face.
To make mounting wheels easier with spacers your can get essentially a long wheel bolt without a head that you thread in as a guide and pull out when the wheel bolts are snug. Lot of German cars come with them in the tool kit.
Seems they are called “Wheel stud alignment pin” or “tool”. Who knew :-)
Wider stance is achieved from wheel spacers which will equate to better handling...the center of gravity has changed with the offset therefore the bumps are not transferred to the shock absorber as before so usually spacers is good move..
The arguments about the ill effects of spacers on the wheels bearings could be so but same with deep offset wheels..
Well from an engineering standpoint spacers will:
Decrease roll angle slightly.
Subsequently decrease weight transfer slightly.
Decrease the effective spring rate slightly.
On the other hand, they will:
Majorly increase the scrub radius (therefore the more steering feel but also the more torque steer).
Hugely increase the thrust loading on the bearings.
A good way to improve the handling on a car like this is to get adjustable bushings and get the geometry a tad more aggressive.
But I cant still grasp the obsession of having a car running on normal street tires on bumpy roads without almost any downforce run very stiff anti-roll bars.
All tires have a load vs coefficient of grip curves and cars like the gta which are very heavy on the front can easily overload the tires if you go very hard or very soft.
In order to alter the mechanical balance of the car I would suggest to harden the front arb and soften the rear let a bit more body roll occur and let the suspension do its camber gaining magic.
These car have rear suspension that aids steering by altering its geometry mid travel.
In order to get travel when cornering, you need some body roll.
Get the car softer and you wont be disappointed especially in the winter where tires NEED TO BE LOADED TO PERFORM
Thanks for the advice! I have already softened the rear roll bar a tad..
Those spacers will have changed your scrub radius quite a bit. I guess alfa will have had to strike a balance with the geometry to keep bearing wear and such in check. Its definitely a science though.
I would certainly consider having a full 4 wheel alignment and check all of the bushes.
Lovely Jubbly, you do appear to be happier with the Alfa, but I do miss the 205.
Interesting. I never got on with the 20mm spacers on my B5 S4. The tracking would ‘wander’ in time. I’ve also read that using the type of spacer you prefer puts extra bending pressure on the longer bolts as they are obviously longer with more ‘unthreaded’ bolt not inside the threads. I also felt ‘subjectively’ that the S4 was much better in the corners when I went back to the OEM fitment. That being said, the B5 isn’t known for being a handling dream! Keep the videos coming.
Thank you buddy, interesting to hear your experience!
@@Number27 It's not the bolts that hold the wheel against the hub... which sounds strange at first.
When the bolts are tightened to the correct torque, in the right order, it's the friction between the wheel and the hub that
keeps everything together. That's why you should never put any lubricant of any kind between wheel/hub/spacer... but many do, glad to see you didn't. You have fallen in love with the GTA... doomed. :)
@@stevewilliams5428 correct. Much misunderstood 👍
Spacers induce wheel bearing failure (as many have already said). If the tyres are as old as some comments imply, then more fool you for not changing them (even for cheapest chocolate). You come across as a capable mechanic with a good understanding of what are becoming "heritage" cars. Some of your selections I like and comment on, the ones that I dislike - out of respect for choice - I stay quiet on.
In short, spacers are a lot of hot air, unless you are making a show car on the cheap.
Spacers alter the distance between the centre of the tyre and the pivot point of the steering (normally the lower ball joint), so they can have quite a dramatic effect on handling and steering response, both negative or positive depending on the car. I've got 20mm spacers on my C4 VTS (the bolt on kind - I didn't want the ones with the long bolts because of the strain the extended bolts would have to take) and I'd say it's made the steering a little more nervous. Ride - I noticed no difference at all (it was cack before, and it's cack now). The one thing that is massively improved (and the sole reason I fitted them) was the looks. Vain, but true!
Took them off again and it highlighted how much better the GTA is with them on. Everything is better except torque steer. They’re coming back on!!
Think it looks better with spacers from back quarter view 👍🇮🇹❤️
The spacers are going to change the scrub radius, so that could explain the change in the steering feel.
That sounds is intoxicating!!
Spacers will just make it look different; whether better or worse is for you to judge. The 40mm extra track may improve outright cornering but you'll only notice when you get to the limit. On the minus side, you will have increased load on the suspension components, especially the bearings and axles, and you have actually slightly increased unsprung weight, which is never good, and you'll have increased tyre wear on the inner edges. Remember that if Alfa had thought an extra 40mm gave a worthwhile improvement they'ed have done it and adjusted the geometry to match! The best upgrade you can do is to get rid of those illegal tyres and get some new grippy ones that won't go bang and will give you the characteristics you want.
5:25 I hope you fixed your headlight bulb by now :D
Awesome car, I think you will enjoy it more the more you own it!
Nice how the exhaust retracks when you step on the gas !
Had one for 12 months. Had uprated koni suspension, QDiff, larger wheels with sticky tires and a cross member bar to add stiffness and it still struggled... Ultimately the chassis was too soft to handle the awesome engine with FrWD. Lovely sound though.
Car looks good with the spacers, you could machine 5mm off if you’re not happy with them. Great choice with the Alfa, sounds awesome. Cheers from Down under.
Thanks Jim, enjoy Australia 🇦🇺!!
I put spacers on my GT86 purely to bring the wheels out more. It's lowered on coil overs and it looked really weird without them.
Hi Jack, well you seem happy. Small outlay for small , but noticeable improvements. I get the theory, a wider stance offering more stability and less roll. However, you have increased unsprung weight and although by small amounts it's outside of the vertical axis of suspension. Possibly a penalty could be loss of traction when driven in extremis but for normal roads not so noticable. Might be even more improved with Q2 diff. Still smiles all round for now. Engine as always, sounds highly addictive!
It has a Q2 Diff... but yes on the unsprung weight.. you’re right.
So sorry ,I do apologise, I didn't realise it was already fitted. Enjoy anyway, watched it again for the V6 soundtrack!!
Gotta say, teenage tuners everywhere are smiling...wheel spacers will create wheel bearing life issues because you've increased the moment arm wrt to the bearing's load angle. Changing road wheel offset (from factory) creates the same problem.
Sounds amazing, looks beautiful, what more could you want!
The double bolt ones are adapters to use wheels with different bolt spacing pattern
Ive had H&R 15f/20r on my 370Z for at least 8 years now and my bearings are fine. Even lowered, no rubbing. 245f 295r tires.
Yes, I don’t agree 20mm spacers will mangle bearings. They will shorten the life a little. Thanks for watching Gregory!
Apart from track width one thing wheel spacers do is change the roll centre of the vehicle as the centre line of the tyre is the axis point where the roll centre is calculated, usually widening the track will lower the roll centre but it depends where it is in relation to the centre of gravity as to how much difference this makes to the roll moment. Not only this but it changes the scrub radius which can effect steering feel.
I've always thought they were a pretty pointless modification that was aesthetically based without any real thought about how they work, but If the car handles better with them on, then fair play, that's often the case with modifications some work, some don't and testing them is the real proof in the pudding so to speak.
Love this car! Great vid keep up the good work 👍🏼
Spacers on the front alters the Scrub Radius. Steering geometry is best left as the manufacturer intended. Spacer manufacturers probably have no idea.
Lots of people mentioning the extra stress on the bearings, which is true but back in the 1980's when every boy racer put them on their Minis and Escorts, it wasn't unknown for wheels to actually fall off. Extra long bolts maybe the same diameter but are weaker. I wouldn't want them on a performance car.
Tyres again Jack.... tyres tyres tyres!!
(and your sidelight’s out mate 👍)
Ok if you widen the front track, you loose steering feel and you need more steering input for the car to corner. You can also create more under steer at speed with a much increased front axle width. You are correct in the physics with ride quality if anything improving with a wider axle width, it is never a game changing change as you found. I really think you need to get rid of the coilovers and go for a quality progressive rate spring and damper setup, get rid of the crash and banging feel of the eibach pro S kit. I had it on my GT it was bloody awful, I sold them on. Most of the German coilover manufacturers do not configure their coilovers for our uk poor road surfaces. Really enjoyed the video. :-)
Thanks Damien!!
Your using Harry's favourite bit of road I see. 👏👏👏
Interesting. I wonder if things would be even better after an alignment as I am sure the extra 20mm track each side will have interferred with the geometry slightly.
not much power for the engine size u say
i think a set of longtube headers and some fiddeling around with the engine management system sorts that out :)
1. New rubber.
2. Wheels with slight changes make perhaps more sense...
3. Spacers introduce a layer of failure points...you need to torque them a bit, etc., check them, etc. and wheel bearings can suffer.....that being said, even Porsche had them at one time as an option (5mm I think).....so mild ones are probably fine but 2cm ones....no......had them on a 996TT with a blueprinted engine....coilovers/corner balanced, etc....tracked it..5mm no issues.....but I was anal about torque (nuts....), etc.
In the above case, it helped handling over 8/10ths for me. My 8/10ths might be your 2/10ths... Under 8/10ths did not notice anything. Looked better as another person noted. No longer have the car.
PS: You did the most important thing in getting ones that are hubcentric (have the centering ridge). I realize that once tight the material to material is the issue, so this is moot, but I always liked having that peace of mind to get it perfectly centered.
And quality goes without saying....I liked a German brand in the past...came with a nice wider-is-better decal at the time....won't say the brand but they do a lot of these and springs and I think other stuff.
Love the car and great videos.
jeff
Extrapolating your theories, when you put 6" spacers on the car will be nearly perfect ... 🤣
Fitting wheel spacers will increase the positive scrub radius at the front wheels which has some unfavourable consequences. ... Any bumps in the road will also be amplified through the steering wheel, making the steering jerky and more unpredictable. During braking, , if braking effort is greater on one side of the vehicle than the other, positive scrub radius will cause the vehicle to veer towards the side with the greater effort. It therefore requires much higher driver involvement and also competence to maintain control and stop the vehicle being tugged into puddles.
ah spacers. Increased torque-steer, more bushing wear and so on and so forth. Braking stability, especially when in more slippery conditions is compromised. New tyres is the best idea, actually.
Hurry up with the next content great content !!!!!!STAY SAFE🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧