The story of Moses coming down from the mountain with instructions for the beautiful within the tabernacle, to represent (dimly) the place where God would meet them, is immediately followed by the story of the golden calf. I think that. is a warning against the corruption of beauty within art, and an appropriate metaphor for the concept of power replacing beauty (25:16). Thank you both.
Beauty speaks through our hearts thankfully. It's an amazing everlasting joy, so, I don't let ugly art concern me too much, although I can't help being baffled by it. Thank you for the interesting conversation!
New here, I just subscribed. Thank you for this lovely conversation, Roger ❤ I look forward to finding other conversations around these topics, especially with art.
Iain's point about Tarkovsky is something I've thought for a long time. He's just in a league all of his own and it's pointless judging him against others. A poet more than a filmmaker.
@@strictlynorton Andrei or Andrey Arsenevick Tarvoskey was a Master of film, a poet of essence. "The Mirror" How can one compare one against another? 1. Charlie Chaplin ❤ 2. Igmar Bergman 3. Stanley Kubrick Art is art. Many blessings for 2024 to everyone. 🙏❤️🌎🌿🕊🎵🎶🎵
Contemporary art has an interesting after-effect of revisiting beauty for the sake of itself, which might not have existed before a foray into contemporary art. One artist that I like on this score is Gerhard Richter who can do both reprentational paintings and conceptual work.
The fallacy in your remark is to operate by the logic of the excluded middle, which creates a false dichotomy between 'representational paintings and conceptual work. Historically, most Western representational paintings always carried conceptual content. For example, Botticelli's Birth of Venus is programmatic and saturated with conceptual meaning. Dutch 17th-century art, which depicts the world in a highly naturalistic way, is also saturated with symbolic meanings conveyed through linguistic puns and visual metaphors of value. The use of chiaroscuro in Baroque art isn't just a visual device but a symbolic way of representing the Christian notion of good and bad, of Christ being the 'light of the world'.
Early on in this conversation, Roger Wagner refers to the outline or contour as purely conventional because it does not exist in the normal world of experience and perception, which leads some to believe that this makes the contour more elevated, pure or refined than naturalistic forms of representation used to represent the world as filled with solid objects and light and shade. Blake was one such person. This is a mistake as the perceptual equivalent of the outline is experienced when things in the environment detach themselves from their background as soon as we move. ( See Gombrich, 1982, The Image and the Eye, p.283)
People, the masses, were illiterares through the middle ages, so the church comunicated though images, most impressivly, you entered in to paradis when entering a well decorated church full of messages and colors, the old testament on the right side and the new testament on the left.
Unless meaning has layers, it is supremely dreary. The right hemisphere accepts ambivalence whereas duality is repugnant to the left. McGilchrist is SO refreshing. Transcriptions of Bach never work for all the reasons McGilchrist says - when he is talking about Tarkovsky.
The brain is a family of coprocessors available to the human incarnated soul - one of many groups of undersouls that the human leader must learn to manage while dealing with the oversouls of other physical and spiritual collectives. It's a high honor to be allowed a human incarnation, especially in the time of the completion of the Gaia experiment. And a great karmic risk.
What a succinct explanation of religious icons. Wonderful. Iconoclasm is so wrong and so wasteful. Also you might go on to say icons, Catholic or Orthodox, etc. last for so many successive generations, while we their humble creators die. The present is wonderful because of the past. Yes like music and all art.
I am a Catholic and an artist. Beauty comes from truth and truth comes from God. God created beauty not ugliness . When you reject God ,well what is there only ugliness.☘️
You seem very sure which must give you a lot of comfort. On the other hand there is the coincidentia oppositorum to which Dr McGIlchrist has introduced us.. Perhaps I ought not to mention that.
I have often heard it said . If king David of bible lived in todays world . With the likes of prozac and other medications . Would we have the beautiful poetry of the psalms...
One should always look up Bible passages in the original languages before quoting them. The word translated as ''image"" in Genesis does not mean what we mean by the word in English. Besides, the BIble cannot be what the Bible calls "God's Word", for the Bible did not exist as it was being written. So what was it talking about? It can be no specific language, because no language is perfect, and therefore limits communication as much as it enables it. Perhaps no one can hear God's Word anymore, because they have Bibles in their ears.
In the Hebrew text of the Bible, the word used to indicate "image" in the passage where it says that God created man in his own image is "tselem". This word literally means "image" or "reflection". Therefore, your criticism should also take into account serious philological studies on the subject. Man is in the image of God not in the sense of a copy, which would be foolish as your commentary notes, but in the sense of a mold, a trace, of the divine. If I may recommend a reading to exit from a simplistic notion of "image" I suggest reading Meister Eckhart who is perhaps the one who in Western culture has best explained what it means to be "image" of God in his "Commentary on the Gospel of John" and his Sermons. An excellent introduction to his work is Bernard McGinn's books. Have a good day.
What if God doesn’t care about our interpretations? What if he’s moved on and is surprised at our fundamentalist view of history, of Spirit, and of the Bible itself?
One of the good things about the bible is that it can be translated into different languages and different versions. That suggests its overall message is universal and comprehensible to everyone.
The mumbling stumbling bumbling Wagner shudders to a halt at the thirty minute mark, allowing Iain McGilchrist to shine through the fog momentarily. Then Iain metaphorically pats him on the head so he will go away happy. Good dog.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you, Roger Wagner, for posting this. I consider this interview to be very illuminating and I can imagine wanting to see it again in future.
It will keep you and your 100 happy?
The story of Moses coming down from the mountain with instructions for the beautiful within the tabernacle, to represent (dimly) the place where God would meet them, is immediately followed by the story of the golden calf. I think that. is a warning against the corruption of beauty within art, and an appropriate metaphor for the concept of power replacing beauty (25:16). Thank you both.
Long may folk like these survive .
God bless you for sharing.
Beauty speaks through our hearts thankfully. It's an amazing everlasting joy, so, I don't let ugly art concern me too much, although I can't help being baffled by it. Thank you for the interesting conversation!
Bad art = Subconscious therapy?
Thank you so much for sharing. I deeply enjoyed this, and have shared the link myself. Cheers from a Pagan
New here, I just subscribed. Thank you for this lovely conversation, Roger ❤ I look forward to finding other conversations around these topics, especially with art.
Iain's point about Tarkovsky is something I've thought for a long time. He's just in a league all of his own and it's pointless judging him against others. A poet more than a filmmaker.
Tarkovsky was a once in a lifetime talent. His deep spiritual beliefs and in built poetic sensibility, made him as you say utterly unique.
@@strictlynorton
Andrei or Andrey Arsenevick Tarvoskey was a Master of film, a poet of essence.
"The Mirror"
How can one compare one against another?
1. Charlie Chaplin ❤
2. Igmar Bergman
3. Stanley Kubrick
Art is art.
Many blessings for 2024 to everyone.
🙏❤️🌎🌿🕊🎵🎶🎵
Excellent and illuminating conversation!
So very good.
Thank you.
Time, Space, Matter, Consciousness, Values, and a Sense of the Sacred.
Goodness, Beauty, and Truth
Contemporary art has an interesting after-effect of revisiting beauty for the sake of itself, which might not have existed before a foray into contemporary art. One artist that I like on this score is Gerhard Richter who can do both reprentational paintings and conceptual work.
The fallacy in your remark is to operate by the logic of the excluded middle, which creates a false dichotomy between 'representational paintings and conceptual work. Historically, most Western representational paintings always carried conceptual content. For example, Botticelli's Birth of Venus is programmatic and saturated with conceptual meaning. Dutch 17th-century art, which depicts the world in a highly naturalistic way, is also saturated with symbolic meanings conveyed through linguistic puns and visual metaphors of value. The use of chiaroscuro in Baroque art isn't just a visual device but a symbolic way of representing the Christian notion of good and bad, of Christ being the 'light of the world'.
Great conversation .
Early on in this conversation, Roger Wagner refers to the outline or contour as purely conventional because it does not exist in the normal world of experience and perception, which leads some to believe that this makes the contour more elevated, pure or refined than naturalistic forms of representation used to represent the world as filled with solid objects and light and shade. Blake was one such person. This is a mistake as the perceptual equivalent of the outline is experienced when things in the environment detach themselves from their background as soon as we move. ( See Gombrich, 1982, The Image and the Eye, p.283)
thank you for this
Curious whether either of you have come across Terrence Malick’s films…
Acoustic beauty also going out of music ..contemporary 'art ' may in general be in identy with power..maybe dance also.
Good observation! # That's why it's become as undelectable as power itself.
People, the masses, were illiterares through the middle ages, so the church comunicated though images, most impressivly, you entered in to paradis when entering a well decorated church full of messages and colors, the old testament on the right side and the new testament on the left.
Unless meaning has layers, it is supremely dreary. The right hemisphere accepts ambivalence whereas duality is repugnant to the left. McGilchrist is SO refreshing. Transcriptions of Bach never work for all the reasons McGilchrist says - when he is talking about Tarkovsky.
The brain is a family of coprocessors available to the human incarnated soul - one of many groups of undersouls that the human leader must learn to manage while dealing with the oversouls of other physical and spiritual collectives. It's a high honor to be allowed a human incarnation, especially in the time of the completion of the Gaia experiment. And a great karmic risk.
What a succinct explanation of religious icons. Wonderful. Iconoclasm is so wrong and so wasteful. Also you might go on to say icons, Catholic or Orthodox, etc. last for so many successive generations, while we their humble creators die. The present is wonderful because of the past.
Yes like music and all art.
I am a Catholic and an artist. Beauty comes from truth and truth comes from God. God created beauty not ugliness . When you reject God ,well what is there only ugliness.☘️
You seem very sure which must give you a lot of comfort. On the other hand there is the coincidentia oppositorum to which Dr McGIlchrist has introduced us.. Perhaps I ought not to mention that.
I have often heard it said . If king David of bible lived in todays world . With the likes of prozac and other medications . Would we have the beautiful poetry of the psalms...
Definitely....The death of Art is a round, not a square......and not even the beauty of Mr Triangle.
One should always look up Bible passages in the original languages before quoting them. The word translated as ''image"" in Genesis does not mean what we mean by the word in English. Besides, the BIble cannot be what the Bible calls "God's Word", for the Bible did not exist as it was being written. So what was it talking about? It can be no specific language, because no language is perfect, and therefore limits communication as much as it enables it. Perhaps no one can hear God's Word anymore, because they have Bibles in their ears.
In the Hebrew text of the Bible, the word used to indicate "image" in the passage where it says that God created man in his own image is "tselem". This word literally means "image" or "reflection". Therefore, your criticism should also take into account serious philological studies on the subject. Man is in the image of God not in the sense of a copy, which would be foolish as your commentary notes, but in the sense of a mold, a trace, of the divine. If I may recommend a reading to exit from a simplistic notion of "image" I suggest reading Meister Eckhart who is perhaps the one who in Western culture has best explained what it means to be "image" of God in his "Commentary on the Gospel of John" and his Sermons. An excellent introduction to his work is Bernard McGinn's books. Have a good day.
What if God doesn’t care about our interpretations? What if he’s moved on and is surprised at our fundamentalist view of history, of Spirit, and of the Bible itself?
One of the good things about the bible is that it can be translated into different languages and different versions. That suggests its overall message is universal and comprehensible to everyone.
"... and God saideth unto Jonah, 'tough trout, pal...'"
@tonyforeman9502 let's all contemplate the sheer and utter stupidity of Tony's statement...ANY book can be translated into any language!
The mumbling stumbling bumbling Wagner shudders to a halt at the thirty minute mark, allowing Iain McGilchrist to shine through the fog momentarily. Then Iain metaphorically pats him on the head so he will go away happy. Good dog.
Glad Iain shines through my mumbling
Ohh …I thought you were so articulate Roger
@@denisjackson8310 Thanks!
The reply of an English gentleman....well rounded!@@rogerwagner6866
OMG THAT IS INCREDIBLY RUDE. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?
Not for me !