On the black runs, I find it's quicker to get on the edge as opposed to the blue runs where I need to pick up speed to use centrifugal force. By using the fore and aft you can avoid the skidding on the blacks. Learned a lot when I was a member of your site.
This was a tremendous help. I watched this last night and applied it to my skiing today. I kept my focus on keeping an athletic stance dropping the pelvis down. It actually made the turns easier and I felt more composed. Thank you Charlie for the video and thank you Tom for the excellent analysis 😁
This cue - sensation of dropping the pelvis was exactly what I needed. I had had similar issues to Charlie - getting too far away from the outside ski too early in an attempt to generate bigger angles, and too much hip counter. I'd addressed those and the additional cue gave me exactly what I needed to take advantage of the better platform. Thanks Tom!
Pushing to add pressure to the downhill ski is tempting for that immediate edge engagement. Unfortunately, it limits the ability to drop the hip into the turn and get that far better edge angle which would allow earlier completion and release of the turn. I heard Mikaela Shiffrin's coach yell "Relax and strong" as she started a race. The relax part allows the hip to drop and the strong part is leveraging and directing the massive ski pressure this builds.
Awesome thanks so much again Tom! Your explanations are fantastic! I think I was doing what Charlie was doing to increase edge angles. I feel that you are the best instructor I have come across on RUclips.
Wow, I am skiing exactly like Charlie, all the same mistakes. Its a result of trying to implement what I've heard from ski instructors and skiing videos, but not understanding correctly. The thing is, I knew I was making mistakes, I knew I wasn't lowering pelvis and not achieving edge angle, but couldn't figure out how to get there. My legs would get so far apart trying to get more edge angle on outside ski. Way more than even Charlie. As you mentioned, rolling outside knee would then be only way to get more edge angle if you don't drop pelvis, and that is exactly what I was resorting to. I knew that was only increasing A frame, but didn't know how to correct it. What has always been lacking, until I found this channel, is that slowmo breakdown and analysis of what is happening at each point in the turn. That and the explanations of what each move is supposed to accomplish at the ski, and what you should be feeling and imaging as you ski. I can already tell this is going to allow me to reach a breakthrough. Can't wait to get onto slopes to start putting into practice. Meanwhile I'll be practing it mentally...
Great video Tom, what I miss in the video is a clear view of Charlies tracks. Your tracks are clean with a deeper track on the outside ski but I can not see Charlie's tracks but what I do see should produce clean tracks and the question is: is the outside ski producing a deeper track than the inside ski. Why I question this is I am more or less ski Charlies style and I produce a deeper track on my outside ski than the inside ski. Although my tracks do not show the width that Charlies tracks may show. I am very big on looking at tracks to see how clean the skis are cutting into the snow. If you can put wat we r pipe in that outside track then you are working in the right direction.
Hi Tom, another awesome video. 5 years retired CSIA L3 CSCF L2. You and the Carv coaches are a great resource for ideas and tips when Im on the hill. I dont have the eyes of an L4 trainner twice a week any more. Thanks for your great videos. Awesome analysis and development plan as always. I feel there is a third contributor and the root cause of the skiers actions in the video. That is the Carv max edge angle tool and skiers like this focusing on maxing their edge angle and going for the biggest number rather than the biggest edge angle aporopriate for the turn, terrain and speed. I feel his inefficient actions would be less so and his skiing better if he were just skiing down the hill feeling the skis and turns rather than trying to crank up the edge angle number as high as possible. I would note the angles he was getting in the video then turn the max angle feature off or ignore it and just ski for feel first. Certainly he has those opportunities for improvement and your plan is excellent but I would take the technology distraction/misdirection out of the process initially. Id add it later using it to help him find the aporopriate max number for the desired rythmical, consistent grip and balance sensations he is trying to achieve. In this case I feel he is chasing the biggest angle he can make rather than the biggest appropriate for the situation.
Tom, thank you! Great video! How important for following your recommendations and catching the feelings you describe is having long perfectly groomed green or green-blue slopes and well tuned recreational slalom skis or carving skis? In many ski regions in US West, such as in Seattle area where I ski at, there is lack of such slopes and many skiers, that we call advanced, ski wider all mountain skis, or even what many would call powder skis. Playing with lowering hips on those skis on slopes where one needs to work with terrain after 10 turns might prove to be a challenge.
The summary @ 10:12 really helped me this past week on the slopes, in particular that a waffling balance between inside/outside skis is to be avoided at all costs. Consequently, I became far more focused and disciplined with my upper body in relation to the outside ski, and for the first time in my life could predict when my turn was "going to happen".
Hi Tom, I’ve just got back from a week in France and have tried to do a bit of a ‘lessons learned review’. What you’ve done here is perfectly pick up on my current challenge and you’ve given me a good lesson here to work on… basically I am a ‘Charlie’ wanting to improve! Thanks
Hey Daveeclarke your more like a "Martin" you know the one, The husband who's telling his wife how to ski, but HE is the one that needs the ski lessons.
Lego skier is a tad confusing because there is no separation between the torso and legs. People will think you are tipping. Remember....there are tons of beginner and intermediate skiers watching this. Otherwise, great stuff.
Nice analysis! I have a slightly different take. Excessive tip lead and A frame are indicative of his lack of use of the inside ski. To use the inside ski, he needs to train his inside ankle to take some of the load but, before he can work on that, he has to learn to balance the entire turn on the outside ski. Without the ability to balance on his outside ski, his attempts at putting some pressure on the inside will result in falling too far to the inside. Also, learning to balance all his pressure over the outside ski will automagically remove his “push” on that outside ski. I love the vertical hip drop idea that only tips the legs but not the upper which produces angulation. That is genius!
This goes directly against much of what I was taught but makes total sense. Was taught to pressure the outside ski and rise up in between the turns. Thx for the big tip on dropping the pelvis. I think that I have always pushed it to the inside, taking the weight in that direction, rather than letting it drop. Gives me something to work on this ski season. Cheers.
There are some fundamentals that people do not understand about carving and edge angle: #1: The arc a ski will carve is a function of TWO factors - Edge Angle + Load on the ski. This is why racers ski on stiffer skis. They are going faster (more load) and using higher edge angles (bending the ski into a tighter curve). Put a racer on a recreation carving ski, and he/she will bend it so much is starts to bind and skid from being over flexed out of an arc. #2 - Performance carving skis are designed to turn with all the load ON ONE SKI. This means that if you turn with weight on both skis, you are by definition spreading the load across two skis. You have two moderately loaded skis instead of one fully loaded ski. You will turn a larger arc for a given edge angle. REPEAT - With the SAME EDGE ANGLE, if you ski on one ski you will carve a much tighter arc than if you ski on two skis at the same edge angle. #3 - When you ski at a high level - High Edge Angles + all the load on the outside ski, the edge angle is determined by how fast you are going, and the arc that you are turning. END OF STORY. For a given speed and turn arc radius (turning G-force), there is only one correct edge angle. If you try to increase your edge angles while turning at a speed and turn radius that does not warrant it, you will actually be skiing incorrectly. You will be manipulating your body, or putting weight on the inside ski to enable edge angles that are incorrect. Hint...ski racers do not worry about edge angles...they worry about going faster. The edge angles are a result. This is the fundamental issue with this video. Charlie is going TOO SLOW for the edge angle he puts on the outside ski. So...the turning forces (square to the base of the ski) do not create enough vertical component to support his center of mass. As such, he has to put a lot of weight on his inside ski to keep from falling over...in other words he skis incorrectly because he has set up an incorrect goal - edge angle in a vacuum. I mean that is...REALLY BAD SKIING. The fact that Carv would give such bad skiing a 147 is mind boggling. You already KNOW THIS intuitively. Imagine going 10 mph on GS skis, the laying them over to 60 degrees! What will happen? You will FALL OVER. When skiing on ONE SKI, the relationship between edge angle and turning force is a function of gravity and physics. Assume you are standing on ONE SKI, and in a steady state high load turn. You are not falling over, and you are not getting stood up by the turning forces. You are in EQUILIBRIUM. The ski can only produce significant force PERPENDICULAR to the BASE. Assume your edge angle is 60 degrees, and you are AT the fall line....in other words....you are a high level ski racer. What MUST the turning force be for you to be in equilibrium? With an edge angle of 60 degrees, the angle of the force vector is 30 degrees to the snow. The acceleration from gravity acting to pull down your center of mass is 1g. The Sin of 30 degrees is .5. That means you must be turning at a combination of speed and turning radius to produce 2g to not fall over onto the snow. That means if you weigh 200# and are standing on one ski, and you are in equilibrium (like a GS turn) at the fall line, the force on your loaded foot / ski is 400#. In case you are wondering that is a LOT. At 70.5 degrees....the force in your leg increases to 600#. There are only a few people on the planet that can do that consistently. What is really funny is the Carv "g-force" web page used to show a chart of edge angle vs g forces....and they clearly used the exact same math above. 45 deg = 1.707G 60 deg = 2.0 G 70 deg = 2.9 G.... But they recently edited the web page and took out the chart. I guess the truth of edge angles is not consistent with business. People want to believe that skiing is all about edge angles. IT IS NOT. There is a LOT more to it than that. The reality is most people, even so called advanced skiers rarely come remotely close to using 45 degree edge angles when standing ONE ONE SKI. Almost all of the edge angle heroes achieve high angles by skiing INCORRECTLY. The believe that edge angles are the goal, and actually ski improperly - at higher angles than their speed and turning radius warrant. The primary way they do this is by putting A LOT OF WEIGHT ON THE INSIDE SKI, and manipulating their body, with a lot of early turn counter and side break, to MOVE THEIR CENTER OF MASS OUTWARD. This is kooky skiing. Here is an example of achieving high edge angles by doing both these things. ruclips.net/video/IrWg-EfNVBw/видео.html Ski like this on an infused race hill and you will be on your butt 1st turn. Now...this is a VERY good skier. 99th percentile. And if he is having fun....power to him. But this should not be represented as "correct" skiing. He is probably 60/40 on his weight distribution and the body position at the fall line is weak...no stacked. There is NO WAY to carry 2G+ loads with this type of skiing. It is weak skiing. Even his description of the clip acknowledges this...."Just a laid back big edge angle carving clip" If you want to ski properly with high edge angles...you should start by learning to do this, with 45 degree+ edge angles all day long: ruclips.net/video/KV5DIRBczFs/видео.html If you can do this, and you want higher edge angles...THEN GO FASTER. The faster you go, the more you have to incline to stay in balance. At about 60 degrees...you will get to the point where even with raising your inside ski...it will be back on the snow.
I think a reason for some of this is that some racers at a young age are told to emphasize the inside knee being forward without reinforcing that the balance should still be on the outside ski. So at that point in time they get high edge angle at the expense of balance.
Even worse: for old-timers like me, instructors have *purposefully* told me to "move both legs together" in order to make me break my stem pivots. They implied through their words that the pressure was shared equally between the skis. It's evident to me now that they didn't understand the mechanics well enough to really teach me to carve, unlike Tom has done with his videos. The consequence is that I end up separating my legs just as Charlie is doing here: faking a high edge angle on the outside ski and navigating through that tenuous balancing act that you can see in the Carv plot.
@@kuanjuliu sorry to hear you’ve had bad instructors. Interesting as I am one as well (of course no where near Toms knowledge) but everyone around me and my own trainers if they do nothing else always emphasize balance on the outside ski. If our terminology of a stem pivot is right it’s actually a good exercise for turning with the lower body which is important (not every turn should and can be carved) but even there the inside ski is very emphasized. Glad you’re able to recognize the need for outside ski Kuan! Edit: autocorrect causes typos
@@andrer3764 Yes indeed: the independence of the lower body in a stem pivot is actually a very *helpful* movement and feeling to encourage! It's just not the only one (and for the longest time it really was my only one), which is why it is so helpful to have these videos explain patiently the importance of enabling all the various joints and muscles in the body, and to not be blocked in particular. It's as Tom has said in other videos: hungry students (who typically rarely get instruction in the first place) hang on every word from instructors - but those words can have interpretations that may be quite different from the instructor's meaning. I'm sure my instructors *assumed* I understood the outside ski gets all the pressure so never thought to reiterate it. So I hugely appreciate it when instructors like Tom inform *other* instructors of where they can improve as well!
@@kuanjuliu Agreed upon! I used to be a ski instructor, are still a speed skating trainer and I am all too familiar with people taking a clue as to their currently performed technique as a wisdom to always apply. This is usually not wise as the instructor is reacting to an image he or she wants to correct in order for the students to being able to change something in their technique and to make another step instead of pointing out the perfect picture. I have learned to explicitly tell students that an exercise (as a small step) is just for the sake of the exercise and is not something to practice every time. Doing it this way I hope to prevent students from acquiring a wrong picture in their heads. Great explanation Tom Gellie (I have learned this a long time ago but had actually forgotten this piece of info)!
Can anybody clear up some miscommunication amongst instructors here? Some racing FIS coaches and former racers emphasize "flexion and extension" (anybody can search this up to help me clarify), where flexion occurs during transition and extension occurs while increasing edge angle. THIS is why the student in this video appears to be "pushing" his downhill leg outward so much I believe. Its because words like flexing through transition and extension through the turn are probably running in his mind (as it does mine). Are those terms not correct according to what Tom is saying? It seems like he is trying to steer away from that thought process here, but I could be wrong.
I don't love description ''pushing/dropping hips down" I like thinking of it more of moving hips inside and forward,you hands movement in 9:20 describes that movement for me.
What you're doing is what my coach called the 5th dimension of skiing. You're using gravity, specifically instead of lengthening your leg to find that outside leg edge and losing balance, you're using forcing yourself slightly down accelerating gravity to maintain pressure and thus grip on the outside leg. watch the rise and fall in your turn. We just did drills on that such a huge difference when you add that mentality of using gravity against the force normal reaction of the snow. Same thing just different way of thinking about it.
I think another possible cause is the way that Charlie initiated the turn. To me, he incline/bank/tipping before he applied pressure to his outside ski. I find this out when I see my own ski video, I see sometime I tipping my body to initiate the turn rather than apply pressure to outside ski to initial the turn. Although Charlie's outside ski pressure is high and you can tell he push it hard during the turn, at the beginning of the turn it is really weak. If you look at the analysis graph, Tom's outside ski pressure is already reach its peak at the beginning of the turn, however Charlie's outside ski pressure only starts to increase at about 40% of the turn.
@ 7:45 of the video it looks less like dropping and more like tipping -- there's very little angulation. Is that due to the slope being off camber? On the right, he is creating good angulation, but the slope is flatter horizontally, and his outside leg is extended almost straight as he has to compensate by using a wide stance to try and maintain his balance so he doesn't topple over. Or am I not seeing that correctly?
What is the video analysis app you are using? I find the way you comparing two videos really helpful and I wonder if you could kindly tell me the name of that app.
Great analysis Tom. I like how you explain sensations rather than just using technical terms on what something should be. It really helps one to understand how to actually execute a move or technique. When moving the pelvis down to apply more edge pressure, do you mainly get the sensation of the edge going straight down (the direction your pelvis is going), or do you also get the sensation of a pushing pressure?
Good question I also get the sensation of pushing pressure. I also must tense my outside leg muscles as this pressure can bend your outside leg not what you want.
Thank you so much for this video. After watching thousand of ski techniques and videos. This one show the best explanation of how to do the angulation in the correct way. Really helpful.
Excellent analysis. The two tips make great sense. I just find the lego skier demo kind of confusing, however. The lego skier is stiff and does not bend at its hip. So, in your demo, the lego skier 's entire straight body just lean to the inside of the turn. That won't create a higher edge angle. The upper body should stay more vertical to create a higher edge angle.
I am concerned about your lack of information on inclination the video is very informative and will help a lot of people but I ask people to look up inclination as well
We appreciate the feedback Ross, we will take this onboard for future content. As with many of the videos we create, we cannot cover every aspect of a certain type of turn with just one lesson of video. For this reason we try to stay focussed on a just a few key points. We're glad that you still found other aspects of this video useful! Happy skiing ⛷
Well Tom HERE in this video when you turn in the right direction you're entering the turn locked with angulation and in the back seat since your external foot is too much forward. Then the exit is ok. When you turn left you enter the turn very nicely but when pressure is there after the fall line you keep inclining too much. Nice to see but not so efficient. My 2 cents:)
Really great analysis. The way I see it, to develop edge angle, Charlie is pushing down instead of pushing forward. Pushing forward with ankle flexion to pressure the front of the boots, which in turn make the skis turn/carve. This is also the athletic position you're talking about. At least this is how I'm understanding it! Thanks for the vid!
I can do it pretty well on a blue slope but when it gets to red ones, I struggle massively in holding a smooth line instead of skidding mid-turn to slow down my overall speed.
the steeper the run, the more constant the turning and the tighter turn arc will control your speed. It will be exhausting, but it is good practice. Watch this one ruclips.net/video/_GWZqhfVHXU/видео.html
Nice technique discussion, thank you. Really gripping stuff. I paused the video several times to go and lean up against a wall to feel for the sensations you were describing. Funnily enough my highest Ski:iQ is 147 which is the same as Charlie in this video. I am skiing at Glungezer, just outside Innsbruck tomorrow morning so I will try out your tips, with a particular emphasis on relaxing and dropping the pelvis downwards rather than stretching for the pressure. Thank you.
Thank you for asking @@patrickpurcell3671! It went very well indeed. I am working my way through the CARV grades, on one run I went from carving level 14 to carving level 17 in about four minutes. I was able to consistently crank the angles higher, so that after three 'starred' turns I was moving up a level. The really nice thing about the whole CARV eco-system is that I can watch videos like this and think about it in an abstract way, then go and get detailed feedback on each turn. What I have learned, however, is that my highest performances come on really very easy slopes with good snow on them and few other skiers. As soon as I try and do the same exercises on red slopes where the conditions are any less than perfect, my performance drops off a cliff in terms of what CARV scores I am getting: I go from consistently getting the nice PING sound to the muffled FAIL sound on most turns.
Hi I got a lot out of seeing Richard Amackers videos on Carv app. They are in the latest version called getting your hip to the floor. I was not getting "S" turns until I watched these 3 short videos.
Starting my 6th ski season ever, sooner 51, I definitely skiing like Charlie. I realize that I extend my outside leg to get more angle. This is wrong haha I don’t know if I developed that position because I ski ice and hard pack snow most of the time and maybe my head tell me to do this I don’t know. Definitely need a few ski lessons to reach my goal. I will try the exercise that you proposed. Very good analysis on this video. Thank you 🙏🏻 Alain
What do you think is the max edge angle for a midfat ski like 100mm or 105 even? If someone only had a ski that wide, should they even attempt to develop higher edge angles, or would they be looking at too much strain on their joints?
When I want to increase Edge Angle i use the outsider knee also bending It toward the inside ski togheter with dropping my pelvis down ....this allow the ski Tail more efficent to close the turn....It would be great if you can express your opinion on that...thanks
This is a great analysis and tear down of this particular skier's weaknesses - thank you for sharing! I love your emphasis on not over extending the outside leg and focusing on the proper hip position. My son had a similar stance. I corrected it by pointing out that hip width (rather than shoulder width) was going to allow him to control the inside ski better and by keeping a relationship of about 1/2 a boot length lead, rather than a huge lead like this skier's (he over flexes the outside but and loses shin contact with the inside). To fix the lead I had him tighten the boot cuff (he was also squashing the outside boot way too much - like this kid) and play with both pulling the inside ski back (to keep good shin contact) and actually pushing the outside ski a little more forward (to eliminate the early squash forward). All of the sudden the he was carving with both skis and a much better hip position automatically followed. He stopped using the inside (or uphill) ski as an outrigger and his balance changed so that he could trust moving the hip more to the inside for higher edge angle, as you showed so well in your exercise. His off piste skiing also improved with this hip width stance and a more efficient lead. Thanks again!
All good !! Moreover, Pelvic/hip movement in these linked turns are commencerate with speed, steep, and cross over ability in combination executed by the skier. It would be nice for us all to be able to hone our skills a little more each time that we hit the slopes. :)
I thought you mentioned in another video to keep your pelvis parallel to the slope when carving. How do you reconcile the tipping of the pelvis recommended in this video with keeping it parallel?
Nice video. An additional thought... As Charlie enters the turn his shoulders and hands should be further forward. As a result the shovel of his outside ski would bite more and he could successfully add weight to the ski through the apex of the turn without straightening his outside leg. As a result his outside hand and ski pole fall down and back through the apex and his shoulders are not rotated into the turn sufficiently. This is especially evident in the left hand turns due to the video angle I think.
Thanks Tom. Very useful as can personally relate to this issue. A minimum reasonable speed required for this one to feel the benefit of course. I find, to try and remind myself to get my pelvis movements defining turn shape, once warmed up fast short carved turns on a medium slope helps with this flow and my balance too. Enjoying these more advanced ones. Cheers.
Tom, very well done for all the videos and your contributions on your channel. I've been following you for more than a year now, and have to say, with your deep technical analyses, it's been the most useful. So thanks again. Once quesiton I have please: When carving and the doing the usual turns, is your body supposed to be facing down-hill OR it should point in the same direction where the skis are pointing? I am seeing both by watching pro skiers like yourself. Appciate your help here.
To keep it simple for long radius turns face your upper body in the direction of travel. So this will ch age through the turn. But at the middle of the turn is really the o key point it’s facing truely down hill.
How do you achieve higher edge angles? Let us know in the comments ⬇️
You ski in Denver, the mile high city, vrala you have HIGHER edge angles
Shoulders low and over outside ski, hip in and down seems to work for me
I thought Tom made it clear (2:30). Let the hip drop while keeping your shoulders square to the fall line.
You can not move your ankle in a ski boot like the GREAT GELLIE would like you to believe
Someone tell me WHY we wear a restraining, restricting hard plastic ski boot, when we ski. Tell me in Physics terms please.
On the black runs, I find it's quicker to get on the edge as opposed to the blue runs where I need to pick up speed to use centrifugal force. By using the fore and aft you can avoid the skidding on the blacks. Learned a lot when I was a member of your site.
This was a tremendous help. I watched this last night and applied it to my skiing today. I kept my focus on keeping an athletic stance dropping the pelvis down. It actually made the turns easier and I felt more composed. Thank you Charlie for the video and thank you Tom for the excellent analysis 😁
Wish I could try it too but I have to wait 7 months as I'm in Australia. I feel this will help me.
Hey awesome! Someone testing it out in the field with feedback. Thanks and well done
I was lucky enough to see this video the night before my trip to Copper Mountain in Colorado 😁
This cue - sensation of dropping the pelvis was exactly what I needed. I had had similar issues to Charlie - getting too far away from the outside ski too early in an attempt to generate bigger angles, and too much hip counter. I'd addressed those and the additional cue gave me exactly what I needed to take advantage of the better platform. Thanks Tom!
@@antibes2003 sweet! So glad it helped
Pushing to add pressure to the downhill ski is tempting for that immediate edge engagement. Unfortunately, it limits the ability to drop the hip into the turn and get that far better edge angle which would allow earlier completion and release of the turn. I heard Mikaela Shiffrin's coach yell "Relax and strong" as she started a race. The relax part allows the hip to drop and the strong part is leveraging and directing the massive ski pressure this builds.
Awesome thanks so much again Tom! Your explanations are fantastic! I think I was doing what Charlie was doing to increase edge angles. I feel that you are the best instructor I have come across on RUclips.
Cheers Patrick
But go try it first. The idea I’m getting across is change what your objective movement is to get the skis tipping over.
Very informative. I too have this problem. Now if I can remember just remember to apply these tips on the mountain. Thanks
Looks like he's doing a power in-rigger exercise..
Thank you. You're one of the best advanced ski instructors ive seen on youtube. You explain the details very eloquently.
Thanks very kind to of you
It's all about the pelvis. On ski and life. Awesome job, i'm working on this and i'm really improving! On my way to IQ 150
I'm exactly at ole Charlie's level...this should be a useful vid!
Thanks for watching!
Don't hesitate to let us know how you go putting these tips into action ⛷
This is immensely helpful. Thank you.
Wow, I am skiing exactly like Charlie, all the same mistakes. Its a result of trying to implement what I've heard from ski instructors and skiing videos, but not understanding correctly.
The thing is, I knew I was making mistakes, I knew I wasn't lowering pelvis and not achieving edge angle, but couldn't figure out how to get there. My legs would get so far apart trying to get more edge angle on outside ski. Way more than even Charlie. As you mentioned, rolling outside knee would then be only way to get more edge angle if you don't drop pelvis, and that is exactly what I was resorting to. I knew that was only increasing A frame, but didn't know how to correct it.
What has always been lacking, until I found this channel, is that slowmo breakdown and analysis of what is happening at each point in the turn. That and the explanations of what each move is supposed to accomplish at the ski, and what you should be feeling and imaging as you ski.
I can already tell this is going to allow me to reach a breakthrough. Can't wait to get onto slopes to start putting into practice.
Meanwhile I'll be practing it mentally...
Great video Tom, what I miss in the video is a clear view of Charlies tracks. Your tracks are clean with a deeper track on the outside ski but I can not see Charlie's tracks but what I do see should produce clean tracks and the question is: is the outside ski producing a deeper track than the inside ski. Why I question this is I am more or less ski Charlies style and I produce a deeper track on my outside ski than the inside ski. Although my tracks do not show the width that Charlies tracks may show. I am very big on looking at tracks to see how clean the skis are cutting into the snow. If you can put wat we r pipe in that outside track then you are working in the right direction.
Hi Tom, another awesome video. 5 years retired CSIA L3 CSCF L2.
You and the Carv coaches are a great resource for ideas and tips when Im on the hill. I dont have the eyes of an L4 trainner twice a week any more. Thanks for your great videos.
Awesome analysis and development plan as always. I feel there is a third contributor and the root cause of the skiers actions in the video.
That is the Carv max edge angle tool and skiers like this focusing on maxing their edge angle and going for the biggest number rather than the biggest edge angle aporopriate for the turn, terrain and speed.
I feel his inefficient actions would be less so and his skiing better if he were just skiing down the hill feeling the skis and turns rather than trying to crank up the edge angle number as high as possible.
I would note the angles he was getting in the video then turn the max angle feature off or ignore it and just ski for feel first.
Certainly he has those opportunities for improvement and your plan is excellent but I would take the technology distraction/misdirection out of the process initially.
Id add it later using it to help him find the aporopriate max number for the desired rythmical, consistent grip and balance sensations he is trying to achieve.
In this case I feel he is chasing the biggest angle he can make rather than the biggest appropriate for the situation.
What i found helped me solving this was thinking of lifting up the inner side of the pelvis
Thanks for sharing this with us Federico,
We wish you all the best on continual improvements!
Happy skiing ⛷
thank you..!!.... you really know, how to tell us........
Ok. That Lego skier needs to be used in all videos... The Lego can be named "Charlie"
Thanks for the comment.
We'll have to run this past Tom but I'm sure he'll have no issues naming the lego skier Charlie 😂
In the past, you have used the direction of "toppling" into each turn. Does this act as the catalyst for dropping the pelvis?
Tom, thank you! Great video! How important for following your recommendations and catching the feelings you describe is having long perfectly groomed green or green-blue slopes and well tuned recreational slalom skis or carving skis? In many ski regions in US West, such as in Seattle area where I ski at, there is lack of such slopes and many skiers, that we call advanced, ski wider all mountain skis, or even what many would call powder skis. Playing with lowering hips on those skis on slopes where one needs to work with terrain after 10 turns might prove to be a challenge.
The summary @ 10:12 really helped me this past week on the slopes, in particular that a waffling balance between inside/outside skis is to be avoided at all costs. Consequently, I became far more focused and disciplined with my upper body in relation to the outside ski, and for the first time in my life could predict when my turn was "going to happen".
This guy is the greatest ski instructor alive
Hi Tom, I’ve just got back from a week in France and have tried to do a bit of a ‘lessons learned review’. What you’ve done here is perfectly pick up on my current challenge and you’ve given me a good lesson here to work on… basically I am a ‘Charlie’ wanting to improve! Thanks
Hey Daveeclarke your more like a "Martin" you know the one, The husband who's telling his wife how to ski, but HE is the one that needs the ski lessons.
@@pauldurda4955 not sure about that one… my wife doesn’t ski!
Lego skier is a tad confusing because there is no separation between the torso and legs. People will think you are tipping. Remember....there are tons of beginner and intermediate skiers watching this. Otherwise, great stuff.
Can you make a video about some possible carving techniques for those little skis called skiboards.
Nice analysis! I have a slightly different take. Excessive tip lead and A frame are indicative of his lack of use of the inside ski. To use the inside ski, he needs to train his inside ankle to take some of the load but, before he can work on that, he has to learn to balance the entire turn on the outside ski. Without the ability to balance on his outside ski, his attempts at putting some pressure on the inside will result in falling too far to the inside. Also, learning to balance all his pressure over the outside ski will automagically remove his “push” on that outside ski. I love the vertical hip drop idea that only tips the legs but not the upper which produces angulation. That is genius!
Damn.... I am a Charlie.... hopefully we can go skiing again soon so I can practise this.
great insight and tips as always, Tom. This is by no means a knock against Charlie, but I guess I'm surprised to see his CARV ski IQ score is 147
I suppose carv will want to appeal to the general skiier who wants to improve and he's pretty good relative to just that
Good point and perhaps the scale needs a recalibration. Anything over 140 is considered ‘professional’
It does point to the limitations of a foot bed based assessment. There’s a lot more to skiing than carv’s sensors can measure.
The differences are subtle yet you precisely found a way to demonstrate ways of improving. Excellent.
This goes directly against much of what I was taught but makes total sense. Was taught to pressure the outside ski and rise up in between the turns. Thx for the big tip on dropping the pelvis. I think that I have always pushed it to the inside, taking the weight in that direction, rather than letting it drop. Gives me something to work on this ski season. Cheers.
just saved 200€ of 1on1 ski lessons, thanks
Glad you found this lesson useful Riccardo!
Let us know how you go putting these tips into action ⛷
great tip, thanks!
Ok. So that's way over contrived hideous skiing!😝😝😝😝😝
There are some fundamentals that people do not understand about carving and edge angle:
#1: The arc a ski will carve is a function of TWO factors - Edge Angle + Load on the ski. This is why racers ski on stiffer skis. They are going faster (more load) and using higher edge angles (bending the ski into a tighter curve). Put a racer on a recreation carving ski, and he/she will bend it so much is starts to bind and skid from being over flexed out of an arc.
#2 - Performance carving skis are designed to turn with all the load ON ONE SKI. This means that if you turn with weight on both skis, you are by definition spreading the load across two skis. You have two moderately loaded skis instead of one fully loaded ski. You will turn a larger arc for a given edge angle. REPEAT - With the SAME EDGE ANGLE, if you ski on one ski you will carve a much tighter arc than if you ski on two skis at the same edge angle.
#3 - When you ski at a high level - High Edge Angles + all the load on the outside ski, the edge angle is determined by how fast you are going, and the arc that you are turning. END OF STORY. For a given speed and turn arc radius (turning G-force), there is only one correct edge angle. If you try to increase your edge angles while turning at a speed and turn radius that does not warrant it, you will actually be skiing incorrectly. You will be manipulating your body, or putting weight on the inside ski to enable edge angles that are incorrect. Hint...ski racers do not worry about edge angles...they worry about going faster. The edge angles are a result.
This is the fundamental issue with this video. Charlie is going TOO SLOW for the edge angle he puts on the outside ski. So...the turning forces (square to the base of the ski) do not create enough vertical component to support his center of mass. As such, he has to put a lot of weight on his inside ski to keep from falling over...in other words he skis incorrectly because he has set up an incorrect goal - edge angle in a vacuum. I mean that is...REALLY BAD SKIING. The fact that Carv would give such bad skiing a 147 is mind boggling. You already KNOW THIS intuitively. Imagine going 10 mph on GS skis, the laying them over to 60 degrees! What will happen? You will FALL OVER.
When skiing on ONE SKI, the relationship between edge angle and turning force is a function of gravity and physics. Assume you are standing on ONE SKI, and in a steady state high load turn. You are not falling over, and you are not getting stood up by the turning forces. You are in EQUILIBRIUM. The ski can only produce significant force PERPENDICULAR to the BASE. Assume your edge angle is 60 degrees, and you are AT the fall line....in other words....you are a high level ski racer. What MUST the turning force be for you to be in equilibrium?
With an edge angle of 60 degrees, the angle of the force vector is 30 degrees to the snow. The acceleration from gravity acting to pull down your center of mass is 1g. The Sin of 30 degrees is .5. That means you must be turning at a combination of speed and turning radius to produce 2g to not fall over onto the snow. That means if you weigh 200# and are standing on one ski, and you are in equilibrium (like a GS turn) at the fall line, the force on your loaded foot / ski is 400#. In case you are wondering that is a LOT. At 70.5 degrees....the force in your leg increases to 600#. There are only a few people on the planet that can do that consistently.
What is really funny is the Carv "g-force" web page used to show a chart of edge angle vs g forces....and they clearly used the exact same math above. 45 deg = 1.707G 60 deg = 2.0 G 70 deg = 2.9 G.... But they recently edited the web page and took out the chart. I guess the truth of edge angles is not consistent with business. People want to believe that skiing is all about edge angles. IT IS NOT. There is a LOT more to it than that.
The reality is most people, even so called advanced skiers rarely come remotely close to using 45 degree edge angles when standing ONE ONE SKI. Almost all of the edge angle heroes achieve high angles by skiing INCORRECTLY. The believe that edge angles are the goal, and actually ski improperly - at higher angles than their speed and turning radius warrant. The primary way they do this is by putting A LOT OF WEIGHT ON THE INSIDE SKI, and manipulating their body, with a lot of early turn counter and side break, to MOVE THEIR CENTER OF MASS OUTWARD. This is kooky skiing. Here is an example of achieving high edge angles by doing both these things.
ruclips.net/video/IrWg-EfNVBw/видео.html
Ski like this on an infused race hill and you will be on your butt 1st turn. Now...this is a VERY good skier. 99th percentile. And if he is having fun....power to him. But this should not be represented as "correct" skiing. He is probably 60/40 on his weight distribution and the body position at the fall line is weak...no stacked. There is NO WAY to carry 2G+ loads with this type of skiing. It is weak skiing. Even his description of the clip acknowledges this...."Just a laid back big edge angle carving clip"
If you want to ski properly with high edge angles...you should start by learning to do this, with 45 degree+ edge angles all day long:
ruclips.net/video/KV5DIRBczFs/видео.html
If you can do this, and you want higher edge angles...THEN GO FASTER. The faster you go, the more you have to incline to stay in balance. At about 60 degrees...you will get to the point where even with raising your inside ski...it will be back on the snow.
Kiddies.............. Make sure your boots are not too stiff........... It IS a common problem.
I think a reason for some of this is that some racers at a young age are told to emphasize the inside knee being forward without reinforcing that the balance should still be on the outside ski. So at that point in time they get high edge angle at the expense of balance.
Even worse: for old-timers like me, instructors have *purposefully* told me to "move both legs together" in order to make me break my stem pivots. They implied through their words that the pressure was shared equally between the skis.
It's evident to me now that they didn't understand the mechanics well enough to really teach me to carve, unlike Tom has done with his videos. The consequence is that I end up separating my legs just as Charlie is doing here: faking a high edge angle on the outside ski and navigating through that tenuous balancing act that you can see in the Carv plot.
@@kuanjuliu sorry to hear you’ve had bad instructors. Interesting as I am one as well (of course no where near Toms knowledge) but everyone around me and my own trainers if they do nothing else always emphasize balance on the outside ski. If our terminology of a stem pivot is right it’s actually a good exercise for turning with the lower body which is important (not every turn should and can be carved) but even there the inside ski is very emphasized. Glad you’re able to recognize the need for outside ski Kuan! Edit: autocorrect causes typos
@@andrer3764 Yes indeed: the independence of the lower body in a stem pivot is actually a very *helpful* movement and feeling to encourage!
It's just not the only one (and for the longest time it really was my only one), which is why it is so helpful to have these videos explain patiently the importance of enabling all the various joints and muscles in the body, and to not be blocked in particular.
It's as Tom has said in other videos: hungry students (who typically rarely get instruction in the first place) hang on every word from instructors - but those words can have interpretations that may be quite different from the instructor's meaning.
I'm sure my instructors *assumed* I understood the outside ski gets all the pressure so never thought to reiterate it. So I hugely appreciate it when instructors like Tom inform *other* instructors of where they can improve as well!
@@kuanjuliu Agreed upon! I used to be a ski instructor, are still a speed skating trainer and I am all too familiar with people taking a clue as to their currently performed technique as a wisdom to always apply. This is usually not wise as the instructor is reacting to an image he or she wants to correct in order for the students to being able to change something in their technique and to make another step instead of pointing out the perfect picture. I have learned to explicitly tell students that an exercise (as a small step) is just for the sake of the exercise and is not something to practice every time. Doing it this way I hope to prevent students from acquiring a wrong picture in their heads. Great explanation Tom Gellie (I have learned this a long time ago but had actually forgotten this piece of info)!
Can anybody clear up some miscommunication amongst instructors here? Some racing FIS coaches and former racers emphasize "flexion and extension" (anybody can search this up to help me clarify), where flexion occurs during transition and extension occurs while increasing edge angle. THIS is why the student in this video appears to be "pushing" his downhill leg outward so much I believe. Its because words like flexing through transition and extension through the turn are probably running in his mind (as it does mine). Are those terms not correct according to what Tom is saying? It seems like he is trying to steer away from that thought process here, but I could be wrong.
Poor Charley. We oldies sympathize believing it takes two hip replacements to drop a pelvis that far.
Excellent!! I think the toppling video is a bit misleading. You topple more with your hips increasing angulation.
That's not it! You do not move from your feet at all! Its not hip or pelvis dumping!😝😝😝
I don't love description ''pushing/dropping hips down" I like thinking of it more of moving hips inside and forward,you hands movement in 9:20 describes that movement for me.
What you're doing is what my coach called the 5th dimension of skiing. You're using gravity, specifically instead of lengthening your leg to find that outside leg edge and losing balance, you're using forcing yourself slightly down accelerating gravity to maintain pressure and thus grip on the outside leg. watch the rise and fall in your turn. We just did drills on that such a huge difference when you add that mentality of using gravity against the force normal reaction of the snow. Same thing just different way of thinking about it.
I think another possible cause is the way that Charlie initiated the turn. To me, he incline/bank/tipping before he applied pressure to his outside ski. I find this out when I see my own ski video, I see sometime I tipping my body to initiate the turn rather than apply pressure to outside ski to initial the turn. Although Charlie's outside ski pressure is high and you can tell he push it hard during the turn, at the beginning of the turn it is really weak. If you look at the analysis graph, Tom's outside ski pressure is already reach its peak at the beginning of the turn, however Charlie's outside ski pressure only starts to increase at about 40% of the turn.
@ 7:45 of the video it looks less like dropping and more like tipping -- there's very little angulation. Is that due to the slope being off camber? On the right, he is creating good angulation, but the slope is flatter horizontally, and his outside leg is extended almost straight as he has to compensate by using a wide stance to try and maintain his balance so he doesn't topple over. Or am I not seeing that correctly?
What is the video analysis app you are using? I find the way you comparing two videos really helpful and I wonder if you could kindly tell me the name of that app.
it is really detailed explain how to create edge angle and maintain pressure on outside ski. really hopeful!!! 08:00
10:42 this pressure analysis i don't get.
I don't see this with the topskiers on the leaderboard of Carv.
amazing job Tom as usual - thank you (from Switzerland, and most often in Zermatt by the way! :) )
Thanks 🙏
Hi
Could You ne kind, What volkl ski is on your back the Red orange one ?!
Thank you !
Great analysis Tom. I like how you explain sensations rather than just using technical terms on what something should be. It really helps one to understand how to actually execute a move or technique.
When moving the pelvis down to apply more edge pressure, do you mainly get the sensation of the edge going straight down (the direction your pelvis is going), or do you also get the sensation of a pushing pressure?
Good question
I also get the sensation of pushing pressure. I also must tense my outside leg muscles as this pressure can bend your outside leg not what you want.
In my opinion, the problem is not originated from his legs, it was his upper body rotation lead to his legs issues, but what do I know ? haha
Thank you so much for this video. After watching thousand of ski techniques and videos. This one show the best explanation of how to do the angulation in the correct way. Really helpful.
Excellent I tried to describe this movement in a different way to others and also in a way that I know helps me ski better
super informative! Bravo
These videos are amazing!
Glad you think so Ruben!
All the best putting these tips into action 👍
An advice to Charly. Try to narrow your stance
Superb explanation that really works for me. I can use this explanation to visualise a drill to improve my movements whist carving. Thanks.
Excellent glad it has helped
Excellent analysis. The two tips make great sense. I just find the lego skier demo kind of confusing, however. The lego skier is stiff and does not bend at its hip. So, in your demo, the lego skier 's entire straight body just lean to the inside of the turn. That won't create a higher edge angle. The upper body should stay more vertical to create a higher edge angle.
Agree with this. Don't think the Lego skier helps, but the cue itself was great for me.
I am concerned about your lack of information on inclination the video is very informative and will help a lot of people but I ask people to look up inclination as well
We appreciate the feedback Ross, we will take this onboard for future content.
As with many of the videos we create, we cannot cover every aspect of a certain type of turn with just one lesson of video.
For this reason we try to stay focussed on a just a few key points.
We're glad that you still found other aspects of this video useful!
Happy skiing ⛷
Your instruction is just soooo clear and excellent - though as with most good things a little more difficult to put into practice
It’s advanced level skiing that I’m trying to help here. It will take some practice. But it’s worth the pursuit now you have a target
But why when he is balancing on his inside leg his pressure score is so high?
Why does it look like you're banking?
super useful! thanks for this...i make the same error
I'm thinking🤔. That's not it!.
Incredible stuff !
Awesome. Thank you
did he bite your finger though?
THANK YOU FROM GREECE
Well Tom HERE in this video when you turn in the right direction you're entering the turn locked with angulation and in the back seat since your external foot is too much forward. Then the exit is ok. When you turn left you enter the turn very nicely but when pressure is there after the fall line you keep inclining too much. Nice to see but not so efficient. My 2 cents:)
Extremely helpful video! Thank you so much.
Really great analysis. The way I see it, to develop edge angle, Charlie is pushing down instead of pushing forward. Pushing forward with ankle flexion to pressure the front of the boots, which in turn make the skis turn/carve. This is also the athletic position you're talking about. At least this is how I'm understanding it! Thanks for the vid!
I can do it pretty well on a blue slope but when it gets to red ones, I struggle massively in holding a smooth line instead of skidding mid-turn to slow down my overall speed.
It might help trying to turn across the hill more. It slows down your line
the steeper the run, the more constant the turning and the tighter turn arc will control your speed. It will be exhausting, but it is good practice. Watch this one
ruclips.net/video/_GWZqhfVHXU/видео.html
Nice technique discussion, thank you. Really gripping stuff. I paused the video several times to go and lean up against a wall to feel for the sensations you were describing. Funnily enough my highest Ski:iQ is 147 which is the same as Charlie in this video. I am skiing at Glungezer, just outside Innsbruck tomorrow morning so I will try out your tips, with a particular emphasis on relaxing and dropping the pelvis downwards rather than stretching for the pressure. Thank you.
How did it go Andrew?
Thank you for asking @@patrickpurcell3671! It went very well indeed. I am working my way through the CARV grades, on one run I went from carving level 14 to carving level 17 in about four minutes. I was able to consistently crank the angles higher, so that after three 'starred' turns I was moving up a level. The really nice thing about the whole CARV eco-system is that I can watch videos like this and think about it in an abstract way, then go and get detailed feedback on each turn. What I have learned, however, is that my highest performances come on really very easy slopes with good snow on them and few other skiers. As soon as I try and do the same exercises on red slopes where the conditions are any less than perfect, my performance drops off a cliff in terms of what CARV scores I am getting: I go from consistently getting the nice PING sound to the muffled FAIL sound on most turns.
Hi I got a lot out of seeing Richard Amackers videos on Carv app. They are in the latest version called getting your hip to the floor. I was not getting "S" turns until I watched these 3 short videos.
I am Charlie.
Very helpful
This is actually a very good video. Thanks!
Glad you liked it!
Thanks Tom!
You just lost the edge grip when you’re ski pole tip slipped on the carpet TOM. That’s not very good technique
Starting my 6th ski season ever, sooner 51, I definitely skiing like Charlie. I realize that I extend my outside leg to get more angle. This is wrong haha I don’t know if I developed that position because I ski ice and hard pack snow most of the time and maybe my head tell me to do this I don’t know. Definitely need a few ski lessons to reach my goal. I will try the exercise that you proposed. Very good analysis on this video.
Thank you 🙏🏻
Alain
Thank you, even though I don't ski for seven years, remembering is nice.
Thx so much Boss!!!!!!!
Happy to help!
Tom nailed this one 👍
-20 F wind chill here. Watching this instead of skiing. No short sleeve shirts here.
What do you think is the max edge angle for a midfat ski like 100mm or 105 even? If someone only had a ski that wide, should they even attempt to develop higher edge angles, or would they be looking at too much strain on their joints?
When I want to increase Edge Angle i use the outsider knee also bending It toward the inside ski togheter with dropping my pelvis down ....this allow the ski Tail more efficent to close the turn....It would be great if you can express your opinion on that...thanks
This is a great analysis and tear down of this particular skier's weaknesses - thank you for sharing! I love your emphasis on not over extending the outside leg and focusing on the proper hip position. My son had a similar stance. I corrected it by pointing out that hip width (rather than shoulder width) was going to allow him to control the inside ski better and by keeping a relationship of about 1/2 a boot length lead, rather than a huge lead like this skier's (he over flexes the outside but and loses shin contact with the inside). To fix the lead I had him tighten the boot cuff (he was also squashing the outside boot way too much - like this kid) and play with both pulling the inside ski back (to keep good shin contact) and actually pushing the outside ski a little more forward (to eliminate the early squash forward). All of the sudden the he was carving with both skis and a much better hip position automatically followed. He stopped using the inside (or uphill) ski as an outrigger and his balance changed so that he could trust moving the hip more to the inside for higher edge angle, as you showed so well in your exercise. His off piste skiing also improved with this hip width stance and a more efficient lead. Thanks again!
thank you so much for the precise explanation of the gravity ,fo so many years I was forcing to much my stance on the downhill ski
Boss
All good !!
Moreover, Pelvic/hip movement in these linked turns are commencerate with speed, steep, and cross over ability in combination executed by the skier. It would be nice for us all to be able to hone our skills a little more each time that we hit the slopes. :)
Can't wait to try this in January! Will do these exercises to get the feeling for the next month!
I thought you mentioned in another video to keep your pelvis parallel to the slope when carving. How do you reconcile the tipping of the pelvis recommended in this video with keeping it parallel?
The feeling I get When I look to the West, and my spirit is crying for leaving this Channel
wooow. this the best video for carving yet and the important of the gravity in it
Nice video. An additional thought... As Charlie enters the turn his shoulders and hands should be further forward. As a result the shovel of his outside ski would bite more and he could successfully add weight to the ski through the apex of the turn without straightening his outside leg. As a result his outside hand and ski pole fall down and back through the apex and his shoulders are not rotated into the turn sufficiently. This is especially evident in the left hand turns due to the video angle I think.
非常棒的讲解！谢谢！
又学到了关键性的技巧！
期待今年的雪季早点儿到来⛷️
Thank you. It would be awesome to see this with a skeleton prop to see how the pelvis is moving with all the other joints.
Thanks Tom. Very useful as can personally relate to this issue. A minimum reasonable speed required for this one to feel the benefit of course. I find, to try and remind myself to get my pelvis movements defining turn shape, once warmed up fast short carved turns on a medium slope helps with this flow and my balance too.
Enjoying these more advanced ones. Cheers.
Thank you! Great explanation!
I'm 5 hours late! WTF 😡😂
Very helpful! Thank you.
I think is fear of toppling over.
THAANKS!!!!
No problems Matias,
All the best putting these tips into action!
Happy skiing ⛷
Tom, very well done for all the videos and your contributions on your channel. I've been following you for more than a year now, and have to say, with your deep technical analyses, it's been the most useful. So thanks again. Once quesiton I have please: When carving and the doing the usual turns, is your body supposed to be facing down-hill OR it should point in the same direction where the skis are pointing? I am seeing both by watching pro skiers like yourself. Appciate your help here.
To keep it simple for long radius turns face your upper body in the direction of travel. So this will ch age through the turn. But at the middle of the turn is really the o key point it’s facing truely down hill.