Apparently 80% of the comments didn't watch the video?!? I've played competitive tabletop for around 8 years, and everything this guy is saying makes 100% sense. He never said "Don't go to tournaments if you're a new player," he said "Don't expect a demo on your first tournament game." If you've never played a game before, play practice games. Watch battle reports. Learn the rules. Being new is fine, but you at least need to know how to play the game on a mechanical level. The only thing I'd add to the video is speed-playing. Slow playing is a big problem, but speed playing (where you rush your opponent into making mistakes when the game is already fast enough) is probably the one thing I've seen in some high-level tournaments that I don't see anyone talk about. But great video! Very good points
I think you’re going to ruin a tournament if you follow this advice and be “that guy.” Just have a good game of Warhammer with your opponent, help them if they want and need it. Don’t use ignorance to create gotcha moments. The purpose of the event is to have fun regardless of your score
I fully agree with you but I still stand by my statement that a tournament is not time for a demo. Somebody should at least know how to play the game, not well, just know how to play it.
I've got to agree with this. Nearly all the same benefits that ruin the event would be true for anybody who is not a realistic possibility of being top table. Our local scene actively invites very new players to play in tournaments as a way to learn the game and get to know more players in the community. In my opinion, open tournaments should be a fun, social event for people of all skill levels. If you want a professional tournament play at invite only events.
The good experiences I've had with Warhammer tournaments have been the norm for me. (Including ShoreHammer, which was a lot of fun when I went two years ago.)
I’m assuming you actually mean someone who has no idea how to play a game, but... the vast majority of tournament organizers encourage new players to jump in and play. Maybe you know the basics, but a new player is not going to be as familiar with the game as a “pro”. But you’ll never really get good unless you play, and maybe the tournament is the only opportunity for a person to get experience.
Yeah, in the video I said people have never played before and want to join a tournament. We have ran into this a surprising amount of times, and people expect a tournament to be a demo. In the video I said that I think everyone should be at least moderately knowledgeable of how the game runs before joining a tournament. No need to be a pro, but you should do everything you can to make sure the tournament flows smoothly and you don't want to be the guy to disrupt the whole thing because you came unprepared. Also, my convention posts a 60-person tournament, that's not your local store tournament with six people in it. So time is really of the essence and so is efficiency when you're dealing with that many people.
@@LetsTalkTabletopsounds more like a marketing problem. If the beginner events aren’t well advertised then people will just go to the regular events. And if there aren’t any beginner or “start playing WH” events then people will just go to the events that are happening. Especially from people who become interested from other games it isn’t obvious. I play magic and things like draft and sealed events and even commander nights all are super beginner friendly even if they are tournaments and there are even prizes. If beginners aren’t welcome at tournaments then where are they welcome?
These comments make my brain explode for some reason. “Tournament” by its definition is a competition. Who would compete in something without the base knowledge of how the thing works? It feels like watching the superbowl, but the announcer pauses it for you to explain what “first down” means? Why not go to just watch so you can learn? Though I guess with no explanation, that could be hard.
Well, at least somebody got my point. I'm not talking about low performing players, I'm talking about people that have never played before at all requiring their opponent to show them how to play in a tournament.
You can't be professional in something that isn't even a profession, wargaming is a hobby, no one gets to be paid for participating in tournaments, quite the opposite. Tournaments are a great opportunity for a lot of people just to play games, even if they are casual, slow or inexperienced players. People have jobs, families, it is often almost impossible to get full casual game of warhammer on week days, and random games on weekends can be quite inefficient time-wise, which make for a lot of people quite more sense to participate in tournaments where you have opportunity to get a 3 or even 5-6 games within 1 or 2 days. Why set any bars for such players?
Idk, I feel lile a lot of your don't do's are just "Don't be bad, don't be slow, be good". Every tournament has to have winners, and you can't have winners without loosers. If someone doesn't understand their rules, or they take too long on their turn, so be it, they most likely loose. And I disagree about it inflating points of the entire tournament, because they ARE apart of the tournament, you as a player did get that score against another player at the tournament. I've had to drive hours to play before, and with a kid at home I don't have all the time to play, it's a nice get away maybe once a month and get a chance to play a game I enjoy. I've always had amazing opponents, and I've been on both ends of your "Don't" do's.
@ Right, that’s what I’m trying to be. Which is probably the biggest reason I stopped competing in tournaments is because the time limit freaked me out too much, and I couldn’t adjust well enough to that speed.
You can at least practice playing against yourself, make rules summaries, have stat cards written out and know the majority of your rules. I've gone into tournaments in the past where I didn't have a whole lot of experience, but I still knew my rules and didn't hold up the game for my opponent.
@@grisch4329 This is the way. I went to my first tourney after ~10 practice games and never playing a tabletop game before, i was even a little shaky on the rules, but I brought a simple list with a lot of similar unit profiles that I memorized, picked a few strats I liked the flavor of and had a flowchart list of 'in this phase try to do X, or if not, do Y; use Z strat when Z squad is attacked, etc'. I wasn't trying to win, I was just trying to keep every game as short as possible and focus on 1 or two small plans per game. Winning can come later.
Suggestions vor every tournament: Noobs -> preliminary rounds with scoreboards (like in soccer world cup) Slowies -> chess clocks Cheaters -> cesspools
I've never ran into this situation. You don't have a local store? You don't have a local club? You have no friends that play it? The place that holds the tournament doesn't have free play?
@LetsTalkTabletop it's very much the norm for a lot of people. Might have 1 store in a 100 mile radius and only 1 guy there who collects or even plays. I was that guy for a long time.
@@LetsTalkTabletop Yeah in places there is very little options sometimes for playing a game and can literally be several hours drive to the nearest store. For most people tournaments are the only way to make the drive worth it as driving several hours there and back for one game isn’t worth it but at a tournament you can get three games in for your day down there. It can be that long even in uk where I live and have a good density of population and places to play some still have to drive hours or more to get to play. Honestly when you think about places like the USA they must have it even worse. Yes you could play a tabletop simulator online but let’s face it that’s not perfect or simple. I would say if your going to a tournament and it’s your first game make sure it’s a local RTT event and not some GT or Super Major and that the tournament has around 3 hour match’s. Also make sure to read the rules and check forums for clarification on some things and watch plenty of games online to learn the game the best you can. I’ve met High ranking players who don’t know every single little rule and leant things at a tournament.
40k "tournaments" should just go back to being run like aos "tournaments" are now. It should be somewhere where you get to get out of the house, play with the models you actually enjoy, while playing a game you love with other people who feel the same. You physically cannot have a properly balanced tournament style game with dice and random chance involved much less as a core mechanic. Your not a better player than anyone just because you googled what was the mathmatically best units and threw them all in a list and it just so happens your codex is busted for the next 3 months this edition. You're just boring, not fun, and no one is going to want to invite you to the beer and wings after party. But hey you at least got the 50 dollars worth of prize money right? What a joke....
But what happens when both players are new and neither really knows how to play the game? Or what if the other player isn't going to offer any kind of help to the new player and just outright tables them in 1-2 turns? If they don't know how to play the game or how your own army works, it's not time for them to enter a tournament. Everyone needs practice games to get familiar with what they are working with. Even the best players out there take time to practice and learn, before it counts.
1:47 I agree no holds barred, but you've got to be playing a game that doesn't have pay-to-win new releases and a decent balance team. It's such a bummer to see all the top tables mostly using the same list.
I completely agree with you, I hate netlisting and my convention is well known for restrictions in this building that try to eliminate net listing. Make people actually make their own lists for a change.
@@LetsTalkTabletop totally. Net listing is a symptom of when your game is imbalanced to the point that you lose that natural rock-paper-scissor balance that's meant to be the backbone of wargaming. I see it as finding an exploit in a video game. Ex: Whoops, they accidentally made x unit cost half as much as it should, better make a whole list out of it 🤣.
In kill team at least I feel people are ok with inexperienced players in tournaments because it's the best way to learn the huge amount of rules the game has. But it certainly shouldn't be a demo
You're saying that tournaments are the best way for a new player to master the rules? Wouldn't a casual game be better for that? Being that it's lacking all of the time restraints and pressure? I feel like tournaments really should be for the people with at least moderate experience in the game. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
@@LetsTalkTabletop Due to the nature of the game, 3/4 games in a single day with the clock ticking will make you improve miles. Casual play is good too, but people often can play only one game per week or less. Plus the community is competitive but chill, and trying to get a good base of players with decent ability is seen as important
Just playing on a clock alone can make you a better player. I play Kill Team, and I would also encourage people with only a couple of games under their belt to enter a tournament. Seeing advanced tactics and strategies in action rather than reading it on a forum or discord server is a night and day difference.
GW themselves market their own tournaments as suitable for beginners. Which is not true as I found out when I went to one of their tournaments having only played 2nd edition KT with my son. It was an opportunity for me to play with other adults having moved areas recently. And I actually met someone I play regularly with now but I found out quickly I was too slow. I was completely naive about tournaments and competition, wasn't a thing back when I first got into the hobby. Haven't been back to a tournament since so the OP will be delighted!
Awful take on tournaments. What if you want to play 40k but have no pals? And it's a fucking game, you shouldn't be ostracised for treating it like a game rather than a professional.
unless the TO markets the tournament as a "play to have fun, no one is keeping score, there are no awards and scores aren't being kept track" then the inferred understanding is that this event is for people with a above basic knowledge of the rules and their list. anything less than that is kindergarten for adults.
Its tournament for a game, the attendees went there for and are expecting a fast, high-level game, not to hold a newbies hand for 4 hours while they guide them through how to play.
i understand the appeal of tournament play, its when you expect your opponent to give you a hard ass match and actually try to win and also that they expect the same off you. you get some amazing matches from that and they are super fun but gosh do i hate fighting against ''competitive'' players in casual setting. folk who play tons of tournaments and know and use the meta, its just not fun at all to play against them. cause it feels there is a huge skill gap where for you the game is just a game and for them its like their life. maybe its just my experience but heck
It really does come down to personal responsibility for all of this. Not caring enough to prepare yourself means you care even less about your peers whom you are now negatively affecting the experience of when they are ultimately showing up to have a good time in their hobby.
Honestly I came back to Warhammer 10th edition after not playing for several years my last time being in 4th or 5th edition. I got a new Imperial Guard Army so didn’t know the rules all that well as used to play Tau. However was pretty decent back in the day. I played around ten games, watched numerous matches and read the rules best I could before my first tournament which was a small GT. In my first game I actually won but lost the other four. Now my knowledge of the core rules and my army rules was fairly good. I only miss read a couple of rules and some of the rules I’d been taught by playing people at my local store turned out to be wrong so not always reliable getting some games in before hand as a lot players miss read rules in 40k. It was ok only happened a couple times and it was easy to catch the mistake first time and not do it again. Also saying new or inexperienced people slow down a tournament is not always true as for a match my opponent wanted me to use a chess clock. Might have been down to me playing Imperial Guard hoard which is fair enough as it can take a while or feels like it to your opponent. Towards the end of the match I had 20minutes left on my clock to 4minutes on his and I was telling him to flip the clock to me when I fought back in combat also this was a few matches in so had the rules down by then so no it wasn’t because he was teaching me the rules. I played fast and while I didn’t win it was a close game and if I’d been a bit more skilled might of won. Also at the tournament I played a guy who was very good at the game and ended up placing fourth and even he made a mistake in the rules.
It sounds like you did your due diligence and tried your best. That's all anybody can ask for, but you knew how to play the game at least basically before entering a tournament. What I said is that tournaments are no place for a demo of someone who has no idea how to play. I have nothing against inexperienced people in the tournament, but I have had several people in my conventions show up to a tournament and have literally no idea how to play the game and have never played before. A tournament is not the time for that.
@ yeah people need to at the very least read through the rules throughly and watch so,e battle reports and how to guides along with asking the community if there is anything they should know or something they missed
As a BB TO, if i dont know the player I usually touch base with them to gauge their experience and adjust the first round accordingly... usually pit them against an opponent that i know is experienced, there to have fun, didnt take a killer list and is good with less experienced players... If a total noob i usually tell the person a league is a better way to learn the game as tournaments can be a little brutal
The bracket argument really bugs me cause you are basically saying "if you aren't a good player, you are giving your opponent an unfair advantage and ruining it for everyone else." And like sure that applies to beginners. But am I ruining it for everyone if I bring a meme list to see how well it can do? That gives my opponent an easier win then they might have had. If I understand my rules but have only barely scraped together 2000 points that's not the most met list that give my opponent and easier win, am I ruining everything? Some people are going to have easier game ones then others, thats just how brackets work. And takes like that are the reason I also don't do tournaments anymore. When someone who I had never played came up to me after and was like "hey you suck cause i'd have won if you didn't let your guy walk all over you" Like chill out dude.
@@LetsTalkTabletop Yeah but then you went on at length about how a new person giving someone an undeserved win ruins it for everyone there and I'm just telling you, to me, that came off as very slippery slope.
Yes, how a new person that doesn't know how to play the game at all and needs a demo joins a tournament and gives someone else in extremely easy win compared to everyone else in the tournament. It's just a fact.
@@LetsTalkTabletop And if I bring an off meta meme list and someone gets an easier win, is that ruining the brackets for everyone? If I run an army with a 40% win rate cause i really like that faction and give someone an easier win, is that ruining the brackets for everyone? Heck what if I know the rules but I just suck. I get tunnel vision and I rush out to aggressively and my opponent gets an easier win then against some standard player. Is that ruining the brackets for everyone? Your bracket argument against new players is an equally valid argument against all of these behaviors. Now I agree with some of the other cases you've made, that putting extra stress on your opponent to teach the game in a competitive time limit environment is a poor place to do it. I'll even add in, I think a lot of new players will have a terrible time at a tournament and will get discouraged because of the cut throat nature. But the argument that it will ruin brackets cause someone is gonna have an easier round one? Someone is going to have an easier round one anyway, thats how brackets work. Sometimes you get the world champ round one, sometimes you get a poor to middling player thats how it works.
If somebody at least knows how to play, I think you're right that there is some wiggle room in that and I would not consider that ruining the bracket because as you said, there's already too many variables that impact the bracket anyway such as dice rolling, etc. But again, I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the fact that every year I have somebody who has never played before sign up for a tournament and then expect everyone to demo for them during a tournament. My problem with it is that there is almost a 0% chance of winning for a person who does not know how to play the game. The worst Warhammer player in the world has a better percentage chance of that than someone who doesn't know the rules. Even a simple game like checkers, if you don't know the first thing about checkers you're going to get stomped in a tournament even though it's quite a simple game.
the gate is the competitive event; to get in you have to be able to play competitively. admission is at the very least knowledge of rules and your list. it's about respect.
@@padrespeaks I'm willing to bet I play more competitive 40k than most; at least one RTT per month, and usually a GT in addition to that every other month, sometimes more. Took 3rd in a 72 person event last week! Point is, at any event I've ever been to, including LVO, NOVA, ACO, and GW Opens, the events are literally 75% newer players / non-competitive players / fluffy players who just want to get games in. If you exclude them, there will be nobody left to actually play the game with. Just like mobile games need new players to feed the whales, Comp40k needs new players to keep showing up to these events, because it'd get real boring with just the actual hardcore competitive people showing up.
@@c0horst that leads me to believe that competitive 40k is a giant seal clubbing like competitive poker. The same top players continue to place because there simply aren't enough players at a competing level. If players just want games in, why make it competitive then? I mean all these players show up around a locale and no one clicks up and exchanges information on discord or Facebook to get a game in but they all show up at the competitive event where the top players end up blowing out opponents early on? It's just very very odd to me.
I do believe that chess clocks fixes some of the biggest issues. That gives each opponent an equal amount of time to finish the game and play there game. I have run into this multiple times with players not knowing rules and then we are forced to talk it out in the bottom of turn 2.
Yeah I always threaten to get them each year. I wonder if I can buy them in bulk? LOL. Verbally working out the results of a game on turn two really sucks for both players.
totally agree; competitive tournaments are not for players ignorant on their list or the rules in general. it leads to slow playing which could lead to attrition scoring. it lacks gamesmanship while I wouldn't say "unprofessional" i would absolutely say "disrespectful
Absolutely, it's a disrespect of the other person's time. They came to the tournament looking for a good challenge and get stuck babysitting. In my opinion it's completely selfish to not be prepared for a tournament. It doesn't mean you can't be casual and have fun and be of any skill level, but it 100% should not be a demo. You need to know at least how to play the game first.
@LetsTalkTabletop I can be a casual player at a tournament, get my list wrecked every round, and come out having a good time. But at all times I have respect for the opponent. Time is being shared during a game of 40k or whatever. Each person respects the other's time. Not knowing the basics is a breakdown of that respect and it won't take long for rep to travel. The best thing new players can do is solo play at small scale and work up.
This might actually be the shitiest video i have seen, so essentially if you are a generally new player, don't come to my tournament. You're level of play is'nt quite good enough for my standards. Sure glad you are not in my area, i encourage people to play, i certainly don't mind helping people along who are green. How do you expect people to learn! Professional, you realise this is a game right, i think you have forgotten that. Certainly won't watch you're videos any more.
Yeah no. Local tournaments are not "semi-pro" events. It's event for fun. People should expect to learn the game even if they have never played before. Stop gatekeeping Warhammer
How would you expect to teach someone a game from scratch during a tournament? Just explaining the basic rules is going to take up at least a quarter of the round time, and then you're expected to play a faster-than-average game against someone who's never played?
do you have anything positive to say? Looking at the title of your videos alot of them are just complianing with alot of terrible advice. WHO HURT YOU. You're whats bad for the hobby
Apparently 80% of the comments didn't watch the video?!?
I've played competitive tabletop for around 8 years, and everything this guy is saying makes 100% sense. He never said "Don't go to tournaments if you're a new player," he said "Don't expect a demo on your first tournament game." If you've never played a game before, play practice games. Watch battle reports. Learn the rules. Being new is fine, but you at least need to know how to play the game on a mechanical level.
The only thing I'd add to the video is speed-playing. Slow playing is a big problem, but speed playing (where you rush your opponent into making mistakes when the game is already fast enough) is probably the one thing I've seen in some high-level tournaments that I don't see anyone talk about.
But great video! Very good points
Thanks! At least you watched it. Lol. This video has 40% down votes because people are stupid. Ah well. At least there is a few sane people here.🤷
I only casually play 40k with some friends but having all your unit's info on a couple cards on hand really has been a lifesaver
I think you’re going to ruin a tournament if you follow this advice and be “that guy.” Just have a good game of Warhammer with your opponent, help them if they want and need it. Don’t use ignorance to create gotcha moments.
The purpose of the event is to have fun regardless of your score
I fully agree with you but I still stand by my statement that a tournament is not time for a demo. Somebody should at least know how to play the game, not well, just know how to play it.
I've got to agree with this. Nearly all the same benefits that ruin the event would be true for anybody who is not a realistic possibility of being top table.
Our local scene actively invites very new players to play in tournaments as a way to learn the game and get to know more players in the community.
In my opinion, open tournaments should be a fun, social event for people of all skill levels. If you want a professional tournament play at invite only events.
"These People Ruin Warhammer Tournaments"...
Warhammer Tournaments ruin Warhammer. Plain and simple.
Okay, can't argue with that.
The good experiences I've had with Warhammer tournaments have been the norm for me. (Including ShoreHammer, which was a lot of fun when I went two years ago.)
A complete bullshit comment is this.
I’m assuming you actually mean someone who has no idea how to play a game, but... the vast majority of tournament organizers encourage new players to jump in and play. Maybe you know the basics, but a new player is not going to be as familiar with the game as a “pro”. But you’ll never really get good unless you play, and maybe the tournament is the only opportunity for a person to get experience.
Yeah, in the video I said people have never played before and want to join a tournament. We have ran into this a surprising amount of times, and people expect a tournament to be a demo. In the video I said that I think everyone should be at least moderately knowledgeable of how the game runs before joining a tournament. No need to be a pro, but you should do everything you can to make sure the tournament flows smoothly and you don't want to be the guy to disrupt the whole thing because you came unprepared. Also, my convention posts a 60-person tournament, that's not your local store tournament with six people in it. So time is really of the essence and so is efficiency when you're dealing with that many people.
@@LetsTalkTabletopsounds more like a marketing problem. If the beginner events aren’t well advertised then people will just go to the regular events. And if there aren’t any beginner or “start playing WH” events then people will just go to the events that are happening. Especially from people who become interested from other games it isn’t obvious. I play magic and things like draft and sealed events and even commander nights all are super beginner friendly even if they are tournaments and there are even prizes. If beginners aren’t welcome at tournaments then where are they welcome?
This video is useless
These comments make my brain explode for some reason. “Tournament” by its definition is a competition. Who would compete in something without the base knowledge of how the thing works? It feels like watching the superbowl, but the announcer pauses it for you to explain what “first down” means? Why not go to just watch so you can learn? Though I guess with no explanation, that could be hard.
Well, at least somebody got my point. I'm not talking about low performing players, I'm talking about people that have never played before at all requiring their opponent to show them how to play in a tournament.
Makes sense. Reinforced that casual game nights are better then tournaments to relax and attent to for new players.
You can't be professional in something that isn't even a profession, wargaming is a hobby, no one gets to be paid for participating in tournaments, quite the opposite. Tournaments are a great opportunity for a lot of people just to play games, even if they are casual, slow or inexperienced players. People have jobs, families, it is often almost impossible to get full casual game of warhammer on week days, and random games on weekends can be quite inefficient time-wise, which make for a lot of people quite more sense to participate in tournaments where you have opportunity to get a 3 or even 5-6 games within 1 or 2 days. Why set any bars for such players?
Idk, I feel lile a lot of your don't do's are just "Don't be bad, don't be slow, be good". Every tournament has to have winners, and you can't have winners without loosers. If someone doesn't understand their rules, or they take too long on their turn, so be it, they most likely loose.
And I disagree about it inflating points of the entire tournament, because they ARE apart of the tournament, you as a player did get that score against another player at the tournament.
I've had to drive hours to play before, and with a kid at home I don't have all the time to play, it's a nice get away maybe once a month and get a chance to play a game I enjoy.
I've always had amazing opponents, and I've been on both ends of your "Don't" do's.
I’m a naturally slow player, so I make sure I am paying attention and planning what to do because I know I’m slow.
But you adjust for it! That's a sign of a considerate player.
@ Right, that’s what I’m trying to be. Which is probably the biggest reason I stopped competing in tournaments is because the time limit freaked me out too much, and I couldn’t adjust well enough to that speed.
Agreed. The increased complexity/time needed made me anxious too.
For some of us, tournaments sre the only chance we get to play and learn.
You can at least practice playing against yourself, make rules summaries, have stat cards written out and know the majority of your rules. I've gone into tournaments in the past where I didn't have a whole lot of experience, but I still knew my rules and didn't hold up the game for my opponent.
Exactly.
You cannot do that in a 3 hour tournament game timeslot
@@grisch4329 This is the way. I went to my first tourney after ~10 practice games and never playing a tabletop game before, i was even a little shaky on the rules, but I brought a simple list with a lot of similar unit profiles that I memorized, picked a few strats I liked the flavor of and had a flowchart list of 'in this phase try to do X, or if not, do Y; use Z strat when Z squad is attacked, etc'. I wasn't trying to win, I was just trying to keep every game as short as possible and focus on 1 or two small plans per game. Winning can come later.
wrong place to learn
Suggestions vor every tournament:
Noobs -> preliminary rounds with scoreboards (like in soccer world cup)
Slowies -> chess clocks
Cheaters -> cesspools
The only way I’d ever be able to even try Warhammer is by going to a tournament
I've never ran into this situation. You don't have a local store? You don't have a local club? You have no friends that play it? The place that holds the tournament doesn't have free play?
@LetsTalkTabletop it's very much the norm for a lot of people. Might have 1 store in a 100 mile radius and only 1 guy there who collects or even plays. I was that guy for a long time.
@@LetsTalkTabletop Yeah in places there is very little options sometimes for playing a game and can literally be several hours drive to the nearest store. For most people tournaments are the only way to make the drive worth it as driving several hours there and back for one game isn’t worth it but at a tournament you can get three games in for your day down there. It can be that long even in uk where I live and have a good density of population and places to play some still have to drive hours or more to get to play. Honestly when you think about places like the USA they must have it even worse.
Yes you could play a tabletop simulator online but let’s face it that’s not perfect or simple.
I would say if your going to a tournament and it’s your first game make sure it’s a local RTT event and not some GT or Super Major and that the tournament has around 3 hour match’s. Also make sure to read the rules and check forums for clarification on some things and watch plenty of games online to learn the game the best you can. I’ve met High ranking players who don’t know every single little rule and leant things at a tournament.
wow your so welcoming to your channle and the GAME of war hammer. its a game dude, and the rules are fucking convoluted.
40k "tournaments" should just go back to being run like aos "tournaments" are now. It should be somewhere where you get to get out of the house, play with the models you actually enjoy, while playing a game you love with other people who feel the same. You physically cannot have a properly balanced tournament style game with dice and random chance involved much less as a core mechanic. Your not a better player than anyone just because you googled what was the mathmatically best units and threw them all in a list and it just so happens your codex is busted for the next 3 months this edition. You're just boring, not fun, and no one is going to want to invite you to the beer and wings after party. But hey you at least got the 50 dollars worth of prize money right? What a joke....
Yo this is one of the biggest examples of gatekeeping I've seen so far in this hobby.
I don't agree with your opinion about new players, every instance is great to learn...
But what happens when both players are new and neither really knows how to play the game? Or what if the other player isn't going to offer any kind of help to the new player and just outright tables them in 1-2 turns?
If they don't know how to play the game or how your own army works, it's not time for them to enter a tournament. Everyone needs practice games to get familiar with what they are working with. Even the best players out there take time to practice and learn, before it counts.
1:47 I agree no holds barred, but you've got to be playing a game that doesn't have pay-to-win new releases and a decent balance team. It's such a bummer to see all the top tables mostly using the same list.
I completely agree with you, I hate netlisting and my convention is well known for restrictions in this building that try to eliminate net listing. Make people actually make their own lists for a change.
@@LetsTalkTabletop totally. Net listing is a symptom of when your game is imbalanced to the point that you lose that natural rock-paper-scissor balance that's meant to be the backbone of wargaming. I see it as finding an exploit in a video game. Ex: Whoops, they accidentally made x unit cost half as much as it should, better make a whole list out of it 🤣.
Lol. Too true.
It sounds like trying to get employment. You can’t have a job without experience, but you can’t get experience without a job.
In kill team at least I feel people are ok with inexperienced players in tournaments because it's the best way to learn the huge amount of rules the game has. But it certainly shouldn't be a demo
You're saying that tournaments are the best way for a new player to master the rules? Wouldn't a casual game be better for that? Being that it's lacking all of the time restraints and pressure? I feel like tournaments really should be for the people with at least moderate experience in the game. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
@@LetsTalkTabletop Due to the nature of the game, 3/4 games in a single day with the clock ticking will make you improve miles. Casual play is good too, but people often can play only one game per week or less. Plus the community is competitive but chill, and trying to get a good base of players with decent ability is seen as important
Just playing on a clock alone can make you a better player. I play Kill Team, and I would also encourage people with only a couple of games under their belt to enter a tournament.
Seeing advanced tactics and strategies in action rather than reading it on a forum or discord server is a night and day difference.
GW themselves market their own tournaments as suitable for beginners. Which is not true as I found out when I went to one of their tournaments having only played 2nd edition KT with my son. It was an opportunity for me to play with other adults having moved areas recently. And I actually met someone I play regularly with now but I found out quickly I was too slow. I was completely naive about tournaments and competition, wasn't a thing back when I first got into the hobby.
Haven't been back to a tournament since so the OP will be delighted!
Awful take on tournaments. What if you want to play 40k but have no pals? And it's a fucking game, you shouldn't be ostracised for treating it like a game rather than a professional.
unless the TO markets the tournament as a "play to have fun, no one is keeping score, there are no awards and scores aren't being kept track" then the inferred understanding is that this event is for people with a above basic knowledge of the rules and their list. anything less than that is kindergarten for adults.
Its tournament for a game, the attendees went there for and are expecting a fast, high-level game, not to hold a newbies hand for 4 hours while they guide them through how to play.
i understand the appeal of tournament play, its when you expect your opponent to give you a hard ass match and actually try to win and also that they expect the same off you. you get some amazing matches from that and they are super fun but gosh do i hate fighting against ''competitive'' players in casual setting. folk who play tons of tournaments and know and use the meta, its just not fun at all to play against them. cause it feels there is a huge skill gap where for you the game is just a game and for them its like their life. maybe its just my experience but heck
I 100% agree. Generally I have quite a bit of distaste for competitive players. But I do admit that I'm biased.
It really does come down to personal responsibility for all of this. Not caring enough to prepare yourself means you care even less about your peers whom you are now negatively affecting the experience of when they are ultimately showing up to have a good time in their hobby.
Well, I guess at least one person watched the video and got my point. Lol
Honestly I came back to Warhammer 10th edition after not playing for several years my last time being in 4th or 5th edition. I got a new Imperial Guard Army so didn’t know the rules all that well as used to play Tau. However was pretty decent back in the day. I played around ten games, watched numerous matches and read the rules best I could before my first tournament which was a small GT. In my first game I actually won but lost the other four. Now my knowledge of the core rules and my army rules was fairly good. I only miss read a couple of rules and some of the rules I’d been taught by playing people at my local store turned out to be wrong so not always reliable getting some games in before hand as a lot players miss read rules in 40k. It was ok only happened a couple times and it was easy to catch the mistake first time and not do it again.
Also saying new or inexperienced people slow down a tournament is not always true as for a match my opponent wanted me to use a chess clock. Might have been down to me playing Imperial Guard hoard which is fair enough as it can take a while or feels like it to your opponent. Towards the end of the match I had 20minutes left on my clock to 4minutes on his and I was telling him to flip the clock to me when I fought back in combat also this was a few matches in so had the rules down by then so no it wasn’t because he was teaching me the rules. I played fast and while I didn’t win it was a close game and if I’d been a bit more skilled might of won.
Also at the tournament I played a guy who was very good at the game and ended up placing fourth and even he made a mistake in the rules.
It sounds like you did your due diligence and tried your best. That's all anybody can ask for, but you knew how to play the game at least basically before entering a tournament. What I said is that tournaments are no place for a demo of someone who has no idea how to play. I have nothing against inexperienced people in the tournament, but I have had several people in my conventions show up to a tournament and have literally no idea how to play the game and have never played before. A tournament is not the time for that.
@ yeah people need to at the very least read through the rules throughly and watch so,e battle reports and how to guides along with asking the community if there is anything they should know or something they missed
As a BB TO, if i dont know the player I usually touch base with them to gauge their experience and adjust the first round accordingly...
usually pit them against an opponent that i know is experienced, there to have fun, didnt take a killer list and is good with less experienced players...
If a total noob i usually tell the person a league is a better way to learn the game as tournaments can be a little brutal
The whole “youll really negatively impact everyone” youre talking about in tourney play-is very offputting to even moderate players.
I just bring out the chess clock. I bring my own....... I am more than happy to play with any experience level.
The bracket argument really bugs me cause you are basically saying "if you aren't a good player, you are giving your opponent an unfair advantage and ruining it for everyone else." And like sure that applies to beginners. But am I ruining it for everyone if I bring a meme list to see how well it can do? That gives my opponent an easier win then they might have had. If I understand my rules but have only barely scraped together 2000 points that's not the most met list that give my opponent and easier win, am I ruining everything? Some people are going to have easier game ones then others, thats just how brackets work. And takes like that are the reason I also don't do tournaments anymore. When someone who I had never played came up to me after and was like "hey you suck cause i'd have won if you didn't let your guy walk all over you" Like chill out dude.
I said if you've never played the game before and you need a demo, a tournament is the wrong time for a demo.
@@LetsTalkTabletop Yeah but then you went on at length about how a new person giving someone an undeserved win ruins it for everyone there and I'm just telling you, to me, that came off as very slippery slope.
Yes, how a new person that doesn't know how to play the game at all and needs a demo joins a tournament and gives someone else in extremely easy win compared to everyone else in the tournament. It's just a fact.
@@LetsTalkTabletop And if I bring an off meta meme list and someone gets an easier win, is that ruining the brackets for everyone? If I run an army with a 40% win rate cause i really like that faction and give someone an easier win, is that ruining the brackets for everyone? Heck what if I know the rules but I just suck. I get tunnel vision and I rush out to aggressively and my opponent gets an easier win then against some standard player. Is that ruining the brackets for everyone? Your bracket argument against new players is an equally valid argument against all of these behaviors. Now I agree with some of the other cases you've made, that putting extra stress on your opponent to teach the game in a competitive time limit environment is a poor place to do it. I'll even add in, I think a lot of new players will have a terrible time at a tournament and will get discouraged because of the cut throat nature. But the argument that it will ruin brackets cause someone is gonna have an easier round one? Someone is going to have an easier round one anyway, thats how brackets work. Sometimes you get the world champ round one, sometimes you get a poor to middling player thats how it works.
If somebody at least knows how to play, I think you're right that there is some wiggle room in that and I would not consider that ruining the bracket because as you said, there's already too many variables that impact the bracket anyway such as dice rolling, etc. But again, I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the fact that every year I have somebody who has never played before sign up for a tournament and then expect everyone to demo for them during a tournament. My problem with it is that there is almost a 0% chance of winning for a person who does not know how to play the game. The worst Warhammer player in the world has a better percentage chance of that than someone who doesn't know the rules. Even a simple game like checkers, if you don't know the first thing about checkers you're going to get stomped in a tournament even though it's quite a simple game.
A bit gatekeepy?
More than a bit really. This is just going to scare new players away.
the gate is the competitive event; to get in you have to be able to play competitively. admission is at the very least knowledge of rules and your list. it's about respect.
Some gates should be kept
@@padrespeaks I'm willing to bet I play more competitive 40k than most; at least one RTT per month, and usually a GT in addition to that every other month, sometimes more. Took 3rd in a 72 person event last week! Point is, at any event I've ever been to, including LVO, NOVA, ACO, and GW Opens, the events are literally 75% newer players / non-competitive players / fluffy players who just want to get games in. If you exclude them, there will be nobody left to actually play the game with. Just like mobile games need new players to feed the whales, Comp40k needs new players to keep showing up to these events, because it'd get real boring with just the actual hardcore competitive people showing up.
@@c0horst that leads me to believe that competitive 40k is a giant seal clubbing like competitive poker. The same top players continue to place because there simply aren't enough players at a competing level.
If players just want games in, why make it competitive then? I mean all these players show up around a locale and no one clicks up and exchanges information on discord or Facebook to get a game in but they all show up at the competitive event where the top players end up blowing out opponents early on? It's just very very odd to me.
I do believe that chess clocks fixes some of the biggest issues. That gives each opponent an equal amount of time to finish the game and play there game. I have run into this multiple times with players not knowing rules and then we are forced to talk it out in the bottom of turn 2.
Yeah I always threaten to get them each year. I wonder if I can buy them in bulk? LOL. Verbally working out the results of a game on turn two really sucks for both players.
totally agree; competitive tournaments are not for players ignorant on their list or the rules in general. it leads to slow playing which could lead to attrition scoring. it lacks gamesmanship
while I wouldn't say "unprofessional" i would absolutely say "disrespectful
Absolutely, it's a disrespect of the other person's time. They came to the tournament looking for a good challenge and get stuck babysitting. In my opinion it's completely selfish to not be prepared for a tournament. It doesn't mean you can't be casual and have fun and be of any skill level, but it 100% should not be a demo. You need to know at least how to play the game first.
@LetsTalkTabletop I can be a casual player at a tournament, get my list wrecked every round, and come out having a good time. But at all times I have respect for the opponent. Time is being shared during a game of 40k or whatever. Each person respects the other's time. Not knowing the basics is a breakdown of that respect and it won't take long for rep to travel.
The best thing new players can do is solo play at small scale and work up.
This might actually be the shitiest video i have seen, so essentially if you are a generally new player, don't come to my tournament. You're level of play is'nt quite good enough for my standards. Sure glad you are not in my area, i encourage people to play, i certainly don't mind helping people along who are green. How do you expect people to learn!
Professional, you realise this is a game right, i think you have forgotten that. Certainly won't watch you're videos any more.
Took me 7 minutes to realize I was listening an entitled sweatlord, even by warhammer competitive player standards.
He literally said he doesn't do Tournaments... How is he a sweatlord?
another great video mate!
Glad you liked it!
Yeah no. Local tournaments are not "semi-pro" events. It's event for fun. People should expect to learn the game even if they have never played before. Stop gatekeeping Warhammer
How would you expect to teach someone a game from scratch during a tournament? Just explaining the basic rules is going to take up at least a quarter of the round time, and then you're expected to play a faster-than-average game against someone who's never played?
do you have anything positive to say? Looking at the title of your videos alot of them are just complianing with alot of terrible advice. WHO HURT YOU. You're whats bad for the hobby