@@SagasuRunning I woll agree with this, only other close shoe is from a Chinses brand Health and its one Legal higher stack Marathon race shoe using a similar compound to Adios Pro 4 under the shoe and for the outsole compound. In the USA will be If Trump gets his way with tariffs this specific Health model most Expensive Super shoe in the USA for Summer of 2024. Since the model has rarely changed only being the upper that is more like a 2010's Nike Lunerlon Racer model of shoe upper material that micromesh only with a tape/thin rubber style toe bumper instead of the Lunerlon having an older style of toe bumper piece you saw last on older 2000's Nike XC shoes like the Nike Waffle XC/Jenna Waffle XC models and the Nike Miler XC model as well.
Welp, I’ve been trying to decide between both of these for Houston Marathon in three weeks and have reached the same conclusion. I’m going with the AlphaFly 3 because I’ve had it all year and it’s a little more tried and true. But I’ve put 70 miles in the Adios Pro 4-including a couple of races-and it’s still occupying a space in my head! Thanks for the always thoughtful content, but our like-mindedness on this particular subject does little to solve my conundrum! 🤣
I think many people are going to be debating between these two in 2025, especially for the spring marathons. It is uncanny how close the two shoes actually are.
I’m not looking at buying either of these (I have a large rotation ft. mostly Asics and Adidas) but your reviews and insights are so technical and interesting, really enjoy the content!
I tried on the EE2 last week and it is RIDICULOUS. Like...insane how soft it is. It feels like you are stepping on a ballon. Jogging in place just felt mushy and sloppy, so much so that I couldn't help but laugh (and the Saucony rep was shocked at my reaction). I am thinking about covering the shoe in 2025...but I have VERY low expectations. I'm more disappointed that Saucony has decided to abandon PWRRUN HG, which was their best foam. Regardless, the EE2 has nowhere the performance potential of the AP4.
@@_Don_P I mean...I seem to generally have the counter opinion the the "running community" 🤣. I think the EE2 will be a shoe some love and one we will see for the 3-5 hour marathon crowd...but it's going to be one of those immediate love/hate shoes for most. I also feel like it could be popular with triathletes as well, it could work well for steady state running. i can also see where the upper might work for no socks running.
@@SagasuRunning interesting, I wonder if that’s what they intended given the endorphin pro line is typically the more “accommodating” or if it’s a blunder. In any case, thanks for the insight.
Honestly… given what Saucony has revealed for 2025…. I don’t know what their overall strategy is. I also don’t think there is an update planned for the EP4 in 2025 (or ever?).
Thanks for making this review. Thanks for confirming my initial observation that AAAP4 is as bouncy as AF3. My pick for the full marathon would still be AF3 since I heard the airpods do not lose their bounce unlike most foams, maybe LSP too, at 30kms. However AAAP4 doesn't have the risk of popping airpods during any run. This is a great time to run where we could enjoy these 2 well engineered running shoes!!!
That is the main promise of Air units, the fact they won't fatigue as fast as foam. That is over tens of thousands of kms though. Ive raced a full in the AF2 and while I didn't like that shoe and it felt like a boot on my foot the air units were definitely consistent over the distance. I do always worry about "popping" the air unit though, but worry less with the design of the AP3. That being said, in my testing of the AP4 I did 4 days of 12-16km runs (nothing marathon distance, but they were back to back to back to back days) to try to fatigue the foam and I got nothing. The new LSP felt remarkably consistent over those days, even when it didn't get time to fully bounce back after repeated days. I do plan on pushing the AP4 to around 320km (200mi) and coming back with a durability video on the foam. Look for that in the spring sometime.
If it's this close...always go with fit. Fit above everything actually. If the race shoe doesn't fit well all the technology in it doesn't matter at all.
I’ve ran in the Adios pro 3 but just didn’t feel it gave me enough energy return. I’ve ran a few marathons in the Alpha 3 and if you’re on your game the energy return is great. However when you tire they became cumbersome for me so I sold them and now await delivery of a pair of puma deviate nitro elite 3 after running in a friends pair and they felt great for me. I slightly pronate so I’ll probably give the Adios pro 4 a miss. Nice review 👌
The TS11 is basically a Adios 9 with rods and a little more stack height, they look nearly identical now. The unknown is what foam the TS11 is using. The assumption is that it is the new LSP...but with a soft foam and the roads dimensionality...that could create problems. So we shall see.
Great video. The bulked out heel on the medial side is very telling on the AF3. The AP3 got away with it because the LSP was so firm, disaster for tiring pronators on the soft AP4.
Tried both. Prefer the AP4 for the longer distance. Better lockdown and a more natural feel. The AF3 felt great at more of the top end speed. Never got along with the booty upper as my feet just kept sliding on me over the distance. Tried tying the laces down and swapping socks, no give after 200 miles.
I agree on bootie uppers, I loath them and have had all of the issues you described in the AF1 and AF2 (including endless toenail trauma). The AF3 though has given me none of that and had great lockdown for me, one of the best fits/lockdowns in 2024. The AP4 is very close for me too....
Thank you for the sharing, so the conclusion is still hard to choose one😊 I have ran the last 2 marathons on the alphafly 3. It is the fastest and best marathon shoes I have ran on. I will try the Pro 4 in a half marathon in coming Feb, and decide which one ,Nike or Adidas, should I wear in Seoul marathon which I intend to break my PB
You can't go wrong with either. The AP4 is a less "mechanical" feeling AF3. As in, without the Airpods it feels more natural. However, both have the same performance AND are fantastic. Have a great half in Feb! The Seoul marathon is a race I want to do some day. Seoul is one of my favorite running cities.
I'll get back to the marathon, but likely not until 2026. I'm going to stay focused on middle distance track stuff into the spring and then will work on the 5k into the summer. I am considering a half marathon next December though and going for a PR. I'll discuss it all on the channel throughout 2025.
The Saucony Endorphin Pro 4 is likely the best option now. The Endorphin Elite 1 also. For 2025 it seems flagship super shoes are all getting softer. I don't follow Diadora at all so I have no opinion.
Great video! Just a quick question. I have been running in a pair of Nike Vaporfly 3 for racing (10k) and I am now preparing for a half-marathon. Do you think that the Adios Pro 4 or Alphafly 3 would suit me better? My favorite training shoe is the Endorphin Speed 4, because I feel that the rocker really helps me as a high-cadence runner. With the same logic, the two shoes in the video would probably be a better fit for me than the Vaprofly, right?
I don't know...I might give the VF3 a second look as a half shoe. Until the AF3 it's the shoe i would have raced in. Between these two shoes, given you likes, I would say you will get on better with the AP4. The flex in the forefoot will be familiar coming from the ES4 and the VF3. It will be a transition but feel more natural than the AF3.
@@SagasuRunning Thanks for taking the time to reply! After watching your Top 10 shoes 2024 video (great video as well), I realised that the Endorphin Pro 4 could be an alternative as well?
It could be if you REALLY need the medial support for the marathon distance. Both the VF3 and AP4 are faster shoes… but the EP4 is a great one. It may be the best option for pronators in super shoes into 2025. The speed roll in the EP4 is more aggressive than the ES4 and I find, as a high cadence runner as well, it can get in the way a bit for very fast efforts (5k and under)… but for marathon pace it’s fine. I have a video from late summer that was a data deep dive on super shoes… it compares the AF3, VF3 and EP4 (among others) at a bunch of speeds. It’s only my own data but maybe it gives you some insight; ruclips.net/video/9toNb-FfTbs/видео.html
Good comparison. Thanks. The other difference between these two is one of them screams "Look, I have my expensive racing shoe on!" and the other looks like any other road shoe. Some will be attracted to the former, some the latter. That may come from the companies background, but it is interesting. I'm surprised that you prefer the "mechanical" feel with less "road feel", more with your consistent preference for lower stack height shoes. do you think that is related to familiarity or something else?
I’m surprised too. I really enjoy the AF3 and have really come around to Nike Air in 2024. I see where they are going with it and I find it quite exciting.
I have high instep and the adios pro 4 is very tight for me since it was stitched on the side walls unlike the usual bottom side stitch. Plus the tongue is not that stretchy.
I have a high arch and have no issue with the medial stitching and I rather like the tongue and fit. Though the trade off for that fit is you need to unlace the shoe fully to get it on and off.
I'm running a down hill marathon next year, in your opinion which one of these two shoes do you think would be better since the impact of the downhill will be a little more fatiguing. I tend to be a mid foot/heel striker. Thanks for your help and good video!
As long as the AF3 fits your foot and doesn't give you any toe issues...I'd go that direction. The big chunk of foam in the heel with cushion you and the Air Zoom units will give you alot of energy return off the toe. The AP4 will do fine but will be less dynamic.
Thank you for making this video. I wanted a comparison of these two super shoe heavyweights. I'm loving the two of them. Are you getting the Adios 9? I hope you'll review this as I know you like low to the ground shoes.
Yup...just as soon as I can get a pair pf Adios 9s I'll be covering them. They aren't really released yet here in Taiwan... plenty more Adidas content coming...
I haven’t tried the AP4 yet but I don’t agree that the Alpha Fly is good for top end speed. The Vapor Fly or Takumi Sen are much better for top end. And, surprisingly, so is the Evo SL.
Not according to my own data for me. The VF3 definitely feels more nimble and is very fast...but the added resilience of the AF3 makes a big difference. Both the AF3 and VF3 are considerably faster than the TS10 for me. If I'm doing a speed workout, off the track, I still reach for the VF3. Racing... thats something else all together.
The Evo 1 is more Adidas's analog to the Vaporfly 3. As I said, for any road distance right now, 5k-full, maybe even a 1mile road race, I'd pick either of these shoes over the Evo 1 or VF3. Now in 2025 with the Streakfly 2 and the Vaporfly 4...we will see. It's going to be interesting for the shorter distances I'm focused on.
Interesting. I don't know why, but I assumed the AP4 would try to copy the VF3 more than the AF3. As long as they're copying Nike, there's still hope for Adidas to ditch that medial cutout.😄 Looking forward to your take on the Evo SL. Curiously, that one seems to use the same Lightstrike Pro midsole as the one in the AP3 and not the one from the AP4.
I have both the takumi sen 10 and the pro3, the pronation is HORRENDOUS, i have a high arched foot and a forefoot strike so i tolerate it, but it has caused me some posterior tibial tendinitis, i can't even imagine how much pronators will suffer with adidas with the medial cutouts.
Yup... I've bene trying to warn pronators about the TS10 & SL2 all year. Classically the medial cutouts in the AP3 haven't been great for some either. The combination of the medial cutouts, medial heel pad AND soft foam is a nightmare for some.
I am a pronator so sadly, I won't be running my marathons with the Pro 4. It will lead to pain. I shall stick to my Endorphin Pro 4. Having that said, I am able to run shorter distances, 1km, 5km, 10km with these shoes. I own a Vaporfly 3: that shoe is too narrow, unstable for a pronator. That is mitigated by leg / feet strength workouts, and hiking + trail running so my feet is equipped with muscles that can stand up for a short while. That helped me achieve a few PBs.
The EP4 really looks to be the best super shoe option going into 2024 for pronators. The VF3, while narrow, does have a fair bit of medial support and flaring, given it's a stripped down racing shoe. The AP4 will be much worst due to the medial cutout and the way the medial heel is designed. I definitely agree on foot/ankle/eg strengthening and workouts. Honestly, something more runners should do.
The AP4 is in a different class… a much better and faster shoe. I’m not a fan of NB’s current shoe and the SC Elite v4 was a mess… but if you like the bounce it that shoe you’ll love the AP4 all the more.
Wait I looked at Nike's website, the Alphafly 3 size 9us men should be 218g. Almost 10% heavier than Adios4. What should be as light as adios4 are the Vaporfly3 and Metaspeed Sky.
The specs in this video are directly from the brands and the L/R weights are my actual shoes that i weighed myself. The weight is nearly identical between these two on my scale in US M9. The VF3 and MSP are both lighter.
Between these two? The AF3 is the better option but still not great. The Saucony Endorphin Pro 4 is likely the best option for wide feet and super shoes…. Or the older Adidas Adios Pro 3.
Question: can Nike moderate its drops to make its shoes more palatable to more of the market, or is it captured by and afraid of alienating its existing 10 mm drop-accustomed user base? I want to try Nike's new trainers; they are doing some interesting things. But all I have to do is try one on and walk around the DSG shoes area and I know it's just too thin in the forefoot for me.
You know... the drop thing is oddly funny to me. The comment above yours (in my view) is about how low drops are awful. No one is happy...and as a runner who (often on a weekly basis) runs in shoes ranging from 0-10mm drops it's really a non-issue for me personally. The "Nike feel" is definitely one that puts you up one your toes with a lot of ground feel in the forefoot (I made a video on all of this). That is just what Nike goes for and I love that feel. Though Nike is seemingly moving many shoes to 8mm drops now and I suspect we will see a 6mm drop or two in the coming years as stack heights get out of hand.
@SagasuRunning You're right; I misspoke somewhat. The 10 mm drop isn't really the issue. I run mostly in Asics, which are mostly 8 mm drop give or take. Not much difference. The thing for me really is the 'Nike feel' you have mentioned here and expanded on previously, the way Nike midsoles tend to taper in stack thickness very aggressively from the ball of the foot forward. Given that this is a defining characteristic of Nike training designs that a great number of runners have been running in for years, it's probably not realistic to expect Nike to move away from it. Other brands have modified their general feels in recent years -- a Brooks shoe in 2024 runs very differently than one from 2021, for example -- but Nike is in somewhat of a different market position from other brands. It's something akin to the dilemma market leaders often get bitten by, wherein they find it difficult to chase the market's general direction as it changes, out of fear of alienating their very substantial customer bases. Still, this new reorganization of its training lines and some of the things it is doing in this latest set of releases gives me hope that Nike is ready to apply the same formidable engineering and design expertise, which has made its racing shoes the best in the market, to the broader consumer/'hobby jogger' market. I hope it does. Nike has been *the* force in innovation in athletic footwear for, well, forever really, and the entire market benefits from having to pay attention to what it's doing. The Adios Pro 4 is a great example of this.
Nike definitely has a specific feel and I find that that is likely very intentional from an engineering and performance POV. You’ll see some new geometries from a few Nikes in 2025. You are right, many brands have “modernized”, namely Adidas and Asics, who also once had a similar feel to Nike. That means there is choice out there in the marketplace. Brooks is going to a rather extreme of all of this. Ultra low drops and ridiculous stacks. However, Brooks know their consumer.
Ah! That is the question, right. I thought about this for the past hour and have to say it is the AF3 for me. Every time I put that shoe on it makes me smile. Sometimes due to workout results and sometimes due to just how otherworldly the ride can be.
I tried both. If these are the only shoes I have to choose from I’d go for Alpha coz Adidas is just too narrow for me. But I actually go for the Vaporfly.
The VF3 is more narrow than either of these shoes? Though the Vf3 upper is MUCH more accommodating than either. As a longtime VF racer...I'd pick either of these shoes over the VF3 for racing right now. However, the VF4 could change that in 2025... we shall see.
It’s actually almost 1cm narrower than the AF3. However, the upper on the VF3 is VERY accommodating in both the material but the construction. So yes, it feels wider but you are actually running on a much narrower platform. Also, I’m a fan of the VF3 because of the narrowness. It’s noble and agile and wonderful because of that.
I got ya… the volume in the VF3 upper is also high… add the accommodating upper and yes… the shoe feels very roomy… buts it’s not compared to the AF3 or AP4. That accommodating upper is why some of us love the VF3 and others really dislike it. I was very polarizing.
The arch in the nike arch killer 3's still a big no no for marathon distance. So as good as zoom x is it's just not an option for me personally. I hear so many people complain about it but yet nike do nothing.
Nike refined the arch considerably in the AF3. it was one of the key changes and it solved the arch issue for many. So Nike "listened" and in the launch spent A LOT of time discussing the arch issues and refinements. As someone with high arches I have never had any issue with AF or VF midfoots though.
@livegreatalways They made the midsole wider but the plate still passes over the air pods inside the same area and causes rubbing. So it's different but not fixed for me personally. I can run alphafly but not for marathons as the pain is too much.
I mean… that dynamic of the plate over the AirPod on the medial side can’t really be helped given the position of the AirPod in relation to the arch. The only solve would be for Nike to move to a AirPod like what is in the Pegasus Plus that is continuous and can be molded around the arch. They may actually not be too far off from what I think they will eventually do as well.
I Like the new designs where brands are brining back a ever so slightly durable toe bumper be it a piece of Tape or between mesh layers, not like the older trend Addias started in the 2010's of no toe bumper or a toe bumper that is a thicker mesh/tighter weave at most that is part of a one piece mesh upper. ASCIS until recently used this trend the most in almost all the shoes they made except budget/trail models until recently when hidden toe bumpers or the tape like products became the trend. I blame in 2010's the Adidas with the shoes with expensive lifestyle models with the Bounce midsole that were like a clone of a more beefy midsole version of the Nike Free that even cheap Walmart/discount shoe place, models for brands that Avia, Athletech, and older Walmart Starter Copied with some of these brands still making shoes like this today.
It a massive step in the right direction given where Adizero uppers have been for many years. It is hard to beat Atomknit 3.0 though...that is a VERY good textile.
A video nobody asked for and needed (probably) but a video that is the most important :D durability wise it will be interessting. AF3 seems very inconsistent... reel heel striker seem to shredd through these like a hot knife through butter, while fore to midfoot striker seem to get a really decent durability out of them.
Durability for the AP4 is unknown. The AF3 has over a year of use and the wear issues are known and what causes certian problems (same as the VF3 really). So one can work around it if they understand their running form.
It's really not that bonkers on foot as the softer foam now pancakes out when loaded. It's not like the AP3 where the forefoot rocker was always present and could feel like falling off a cliff at time.
When I hear the foam is so soft that they wonder about the longevity of the Pro 4. Also hearing the “snap” that makes it fast diminishes immensely at 50-60 miles. That sucked a whole lot out of “gotta have them” for the Pro 4.
Ya, this is the biggest unknown. I'm going to try to push my AP4s to 320km (200mi) and come back with a video on durability. That might not be until the spring though. My guess is the new foam will be have a lot like ZoomX traditionally has. 150-200km of good racing and then another 200km+ of training. For a super shoe I'll always take performance over durability...but as a longtime ZoomX runner, I'm fine with the above. The AP3 was an edge case on durability and never had the performance for me when compared to Nike or Asics (or even Saucony).
“Adidas fixed all the issues with the upper”……..WRONG! The sling system heel counter is still an Achilles shredder. The way they bring the plastic center post up all the way to the top of the heel counter and curl it back in towards the Achilles just completely blistered me up in less than 5 miles. Could feel it starting about 10 minutes into the run. I have Boston 12, Adios 8 and Takumi 8 and those are all great, but the heel counter on those are about 1cm shorter and don’t have the harder plastic center post that goes all way to the top. Back in the box and to Adidas the Pro 4 goes. Back to Puma DNE3 as my race shoe which has no Achilles heel disaster and same energy return from the ATPU midsole, if not ever so slightly firmer feel for more response.
For you maybe. I didn't get any issues on my heel or achilles. I can see where some might, but even if it happens it's a very easy solve with a band aid/plaster or two. Annoying for some yes, but by no means the nightmare of the AP3 upper. I do agree the Adios 8 heel is very good. The B12 heel could give me issues at times. Again though, bandaids/plasters resolve this easily.
@@SagasuRunningactually, for me the Achilles cutter is worse on the 4 than it was on the 3. I could get to about 10-12 miles before I really started to feel it, but with the 4 I only got 1.5 miles in. Believe me that a plaster doesn’t fix it for me. Tried that and no go. Again the rest of the upper is great, but the heel counter is a disaster. My engineer mind looks at how it’s designed and question how anyone could have thought angling a sharp plastic edge back at the heel is a good idea for a shoe, nonetheless one that is supposed to be comfortable for 26.2 miles. Point being, for anyone that had Achilles blistering issues with the 3 the beware of the 4. Did you experience the Achilles issues with the 3?
I didn’t get any Achilles blistering with the AP3, maybe the only pain I didn’t get from that upper. The B12 was the one that could cut into my Achilles. The Adois 8 and TS10 both gave me no issues. I just took another look at the heel tab (blinker) on the AP4 and it’s the same fundamental design as the TS10 except it’s a few mms higher (you are right) which is likely what clauses the issue for some heel shapes. Asics are the shoes they give me Achilles pain and blistering/cutting. Especially the Metaspeeds.
@@SagasuRunningI don’t have the TS10 so can’t compare but do have the TS8. B12, TS8 & A8 all have a slightly less curled and bit more straight vertical heel cup when viewed from the side than what AP4 does and that curl along with being higher is a bad combination. The Metaspeeds also have that high, deep cup/curl and also caused me blistering but not as short order as the AP4 does. I had high hopes to have a complete Adidas rotation, but maybe they’ll get it right in the AP5. And they were so close. At least I have the Puma DNE3 that doesn’t cause me any issues and the midsole and ride is just as good as the AP4 is IMO
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
The match up we’ve all been waiting for 😀
...and one we will see ALOT in 2025. 🤙🏻
@@SagasuRunning I woll agree with this, only other close shoe is from a Chinses brand Health and its one Legal higher stack Marathon race shoe using a similar compound to Adios Pro 4 under the shoe and for the outsole compound. In the USA will be If Trump gets his way with tariffs this specific Health model most Expensive Super shoe in the USA for Summer of 2024. Since the model has rarely changed only being the upper that is more like a 2010's Nike Lunerlon Racer model of shoe upper material that micromesh only with a tape/thin rubber style toe bumper instead of the Lunerlon having an older style of toe bumper piece you saw last on older 2000's Nike XC shoes like the Nike Waffle XC/Jenna Waffle XC models and the Nike Miler XC model as well.
Thanks! I currently have all PBs in the AF3 but AP4 is in the box and can’t wait… thanks again
Once you adjust to them, you will love them. 🤙🏻
Welp, I’ve been trying to decide between both of these for Houston Marathon in three weeks and have reached the same conclusion. I’m going with the AlphaFly 3 because I’ve had it all year and it’s a little more tried and true. But I’ve put 70 miles in the Adios Pro 4-including a couple of races-and it’s still occupying a space in my head! Thanks for the always thoughtful content, but our like-mindedness on this particular subject does little to solve my conundrum! 🤣
I think many people are going to be debating between these two in 2025, especially for the spring marathons. It is uncanny how close the two shoes actually are.
Thanks for making this video. These are the 2 shoes I’m trying to decide between for an April marathon.
Good luck in April! You’ll have a great race whichever you choose. You can't go wrong with either. 🤙🏻
Your performance matrix always delivers.
I'm finishing up a 2024 download...I'll have a community post soon for members. 💪🏻
@SagasuRunning nice
You reviews is next level thanks!
Thank you for the kind words and for watching. 🤙🏻
I’m not looking at buying either of these (I have a large rotation ft. mostly Asics and Adidas) but your reviews and insights are so technical and interesting, really enjoy the content!
Thank you for watching! 🤙🏻
Thanks for everything explication’s!!!!!
🤙🏻
Fantastic comparison 👌
Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻
The two shoes that I must try this coming year is the adios pro 4 and endorphin elite 2. Those two seem like shoes that have changed in a big way
I tried on the EE2 last week and it is RIDICULOUS. Like...insane how soft it is. It feels like you are stepping on a ballon. Jogging in place just felt mushy and sloppy, so much so that I couldn't help but laugh (and the Saucony rep was shocked at my reaction). I am thinking about covering the shoe in 2025...but I have VERY low expectations. I'm more disappointed that Saucony has decided to abandon PWRRUN HG, which was their best foam.
Regardless, the EE2 has nowhere the performance potential of the AP4.
@ hmm that’s interesting. Do you think that the majority of the running community would share your opinion?
@@_Don_P I mean...I seem to generally have the counter opinion the the "running community" 🤣. I think the EE2 will be a shoe some love and one we will see for the 3-5 hour marathon crowd...but it's going to be one of those immediate love/hate shoes for most. I also feel like it could be popular with triathletes as well, it could work well for steady state running. i can also see where the upper might work for no socks running.
@@SagasuRunning interesting, I wonder if that’s what they intended given the endorphin pro line is typically the more “accommodating” or if it’s a blunder. In any case, thanks for the insight.
Honestly… given what Saucony has revealed for 2025…. I don’t know what their overall strategy is. I also don’t think there is an update planned for the EP4 in 2025 (or ever?).
It's amazing how similar these two shoes are because just by visually looking at them side to side, you would never know it.
It really does feel like Addias used the AF3 as a benchmark to tune the AP4 too. It’s uncanny actually.
Thanks for making this review. Thanks for confirming my initial observation that AAAP4 is as bouncy as AF3. My pick for the full marathon would still be AF3 since I heard the airpods do not lose their bounce unlike most foams, maybe LSP too, at 30kms. However AAAP4 doesn't have the risk of popping airpods during any run. This is a great time to run where we could enjoy these 2 well engineered running shoes!!!
That is the main promise of Air units, the fact they won't fatigue as fast as foam. That is over tens of thousands of kms though. Ive raced a full in the AF2 and while I didn't like that shoe and it felt like a boot on my foot the air units were definitely consistent over the distance. I do always worry about "popping" the air unit though, but worry less with the design of the AP3.
That being said, in my testing of the AP4 I did 4 days of 12-16km runs (nothing marathon distance, but they were back to back to back to back days) to try to fatigue the foam and I got nothing. The new LSP felt remarkably consistent over those days, even when it didn't get time to fully bounce back after repeated days.
I do plan on pushing the AP4 to around 320km (200mi) and coming back with a durability video on the foam. Look for that in the spring sometime.
@SagasuRunning whoaaa... those are good signs. We'll be waiting for your results
I’m on it… but it will be a bit. Sometimes in late winter or early spring.
A close match uppp!
If its close like this, kindly choose either of these due to reasons of:
- price
- which model you like
- fit on feet
If it's this close...always go with fit. Fit above everything actually. If the race shoe doesn't fit well all the technology in it doesn't matter at all.
I’ve ran in the Adios pro 3 but just didn’t feel it gave me enough energy return. I’ve ran a few marathons in the Alpha 3 and if you’re on your game the energy return is great. However when you tire they became cumbersome for me so I sold them and now await delivery of a pair of puma deviate nitro elite 3 after running in a friends pair and they felt great for me. I slightly pronate so I’ll probably give the Adios pro 4 a miss. Nice review 👌
Sounds like the DNE3 Is a good choice for you then. Enjoy them.
I do wonder were the Takumi Sen will go after seeing were they are going with the rest of their lineup.
The TS11 is basically a Adios 9 with rods and a little more stack height, they look nearly identical now. The unknown is what foam the TS11 is using. The assumption is that it is the new LSP...but with a soft foam and the roads dimensionality...that could create problems. So we shall see.
Great video. The bulked out heel on the medial side is very telling on the AF3. The AP3 got away with it because the LSP was so firm, disaster for tiring pronators on the soft AP4.
Definitely… the AP4 will be very problematic for pronators and many heel strikers.
Tried both. Prefer the AP4 for the longer distance. Better lockdown and a more natural feel. The AF3 felt great at more of the top end speed. Never got along with the booty upper as my feet just kept sliding on me over the distance. Tried tying the laces down and swapping socks, no give after 200 miles.
I agree on bootie uppers, I loath them and have had all of the issues you described in the AF1 and AF2 (including endless toenail trauma). The AF3 though has given me none of that and had great lockdown for me, one of the best fits/lockdowns in 2024. The AP4 is very close for me too....
I just bought the AP4 :) Still need to do my first run in them
You'll love them... they are outstanding. 🤙🏻
Thank you for the sharing, so the conclusion is still hard to choose one😊 I have ran the last 2 marathons on the alphafly 3. It is the fastest and best marathon shoes I have ran on. I will try the Pro 4 in a half marathon in coming Feb, and decide which one ,Nike or Adidas, should I wear in Seoul marathon which I intend to break my PB
You can't go wrong with either. The AP4 is a less "mechanical" feeling AF3. As in, without the Airpods it feels more natural. However, both have the same performance AND are fantastic.
Have a great half in Feb! The Seoul marathon is a race I want to do some day. Seoul is one of my favorite running cities.
Would love to see so marathon runs from you. I believe you are very knowledgeable in running and I'm hoping to see you in action.
I'll get back to the marathon, but likely not until 2026. I'm going to stay focused on middle distance track stuff into the spring and then will work on the 5k into the summer. I am considering a half marathon next December though and going for a PR. I'll discuss it all on the channel throughout 2025.
I definitely overpronate in soft shoes . I loved the AP3 for the stability. What’s another good option ? The Diadora gara carbon?
The Saucony Endorphin Pro 4 is likely the best option now. The Endorphin Elite 1 also. For 2025 it seems flagship super shoes are all getting softer.
I don't follow Diadora at all so I have no opinion.
Great video!
Just a quick question. I have been running in a pair of Nike Vaporfly 3 for racing (10k) and I am now preparing for a half-marathon.
Do you think that the Adios Pro 4 or Alphafly 3 would suit me better? My favorite training shoe is the Endorphin Speed 4, because I feel that the rocker really helps me as a high-cadence runner. With the same logic, the two shoes in the video would probably be a better fit for me than the Vaprofly, right?
I don't know...I might give the VF3 a second look as a half shoe. Until the AF3 it's the shoe i would have raced in. Between these two shoes, given you likes, I would say you will get on better with the AP4. The flex in the forefoot will be familiar coming from the ES4 and the VF3. It will be a transition but feel more natural than the AF3.
@@SagasuRunning Thanks for taking the time to reply! After watching your Top 10 shoes 2024 video (great video as well), I realised that the Endorphin Pro 4 could be an alternative as well?
It could be if you REALLY need the medial support for the marathon distance. Both the VF3 and AP4 are faster shoes… but the EP4 is a great one. It may be the best option for pronators in super shoes into 2025.
The speed roll in the EP4 is more aggressive than the ES4 and I find, as a high cadence runner as well, it can get in the way a bit for very fast efforts (5k and under)… but for marathon pace it’s fine.
I have a video from late summer that was a data deep dive on super shoes… it compares the AF3, VF3 and EP4 (among others) at a bunch of speeds. It’s only my own data but maybe it gives you some insight; ruclips.net/video/9toNb-FfTbs/видео.html
@@SagasuRunningThanks!
Good comparison. Thanks.
The other difference between these two is one of them screams "Look, I have my expensive racing shoe on!" and the other looks like any other road shoe. Some will be attracted to the former, some the latter. That may come from the companies background, but it is interesting.
I'm surprised that you prefer the "mechanical" feel with less "road feel", more with your consistent preference for lower stack height shoes. do you think that is related to familiarity or something else?
I’m surprised too. I really enjoy the AF3 and have really come around to Nike Air in 2024. I see where they are going with it and I find it quite exciting.
I have high instep and the adios pro 4 is very tight for me since it was stitched on the side walls unlike the usual bottom side stitch. Plus the tongue is not that stretchy.
I have a high arch and have no issue with the medial stitching and I rather like the tongue and fit. Though the trade off for that fit is you need to unlace the shoe fully to get it on and off.
I'm running a down hill marathon next year, in your opinion which one of these two shoes do you think would be better since the impact of the downhill will be a little more fatiguing. I tend to be a mid foot/heel striker. Thanks for your help and good video!
As long as the AF3 fits your foot and doesn't give you any toe issues...I'd go that direction. The big chunk of foam in the heel with cushion you and the Air Zoom units will give you alot of energy return off the toe. The AP4 will do fine but will be less dynamic.
Thank you for making this video. I wanted a comparison of these two super shoe heavyweights. I'm loving the two of them.
Are you getting the Adios 9? I hope you'll review this as I know you like low to the ground shoes.
Yup...just as soon as I can get a pair pf Adios 9s I'll be covering them. They aren't really released yet here in Taiwan... plenty more Adidas content coming...
I haven’t tried the AP4 yet but I don’t agree that the Alpha Fly is good for top end speed. The Vapor Fly or Takumi Sen are much better for top end. And, surprisingly, so is the Evo SL.
Not according to my own data for me. The VF3 definitely feels more nimble and is very fast...but the added resilience of the AF3 makes a big difference. Both the AF3 and VF3 are considerably faster than the TS10 for me.
If I'm doing a speed workout, off the track, I still reach for the VF3. Racing... thats something else all together.
Nice review, as always.
If price is not a consideration, how would the EVO1 rank here for a half, full?
The Evo 1 is more Adidas's analog to the Vaporfly 3. As I said, for any road distance right now, 5k-full, maybe even a 1mile road race, I'd pick either of these shoes over the Evo 1 or VF3.
Now in 2025 with the Streakfly 2 and the Vaporfly 4...we will see. It's going to be interesting for the shorter distances I'm focused on.
thanks
Thank YOU. 🤙🏻
Interesting. I don't know why, but I assumed the AP4 would try to copy the VF3 more than the AF3. As long as they're copying Nike, there's still hope for Adidas to ditch that medial cutout.😄 Looking forward to your take on the Evo SL. Curiously, that one seems to use the same Lightstrike Pro midsole as the one in the AP3 and not the one from the AP4.
The Evo 1 = VF3.
The Evo SL is an odd one. I have many thoughts but am waiting to run in them before I make those videos.
I have both the takumi sen 10 and the pro3, the pronation is HORRENDOUS, i have a high arched foot and a forefoot strike so i tolerate it, but it has caused me some posterior tibial tendinitis, i can't even imagine how much pronators will suffer with adidas with the medial cutouts.
Yup... I've bene trying to warn pronators about the TS10 & SL2 all year. Classically the medial cutouts in the AP3 haven't been great for some either. The combination of the medial cutouts, medial heel pad AND soft foam is a nightmare for some.
I am a pronator so sadly, I won't be running my marathons with the Pro 4. It will lead to pain. I shall stick to my Endorphin Pro 4.
Having that said, I am able to run shorter distances, 1km, 5km, 10km with these shoes. I own a Vaporfly 3: that shoe is too narrow, unstable for a pronator. That is mitigated by leg / feet strength workouts, and hiking + trail running so my feet is equipped with muscles that can stand up for a short while. That helped me achieve a few PBs.
The EP4 really looks to be the best super shoe option going into 2024 for pronators.
The VF3, while narrow, does have a fair bit of medial support and flaring, given it's a stripped down racing shoe. The AP4 will be much worst due to the medial cutout and the way the medial heel is designed.
I definitely agree on foot/ankle/eg strengthening and workouts. Honestly, something more runners should do.
Hi, can you give us a little comparation between adidas pro 4 vs new balance elite v4.... thanks before
The AP4 is in a different class… a much better and faster shoe. I’m not a fan of NB’s current shoe and the SC Elite v4 was a mess… but if you like the bounce it that shoe you’ll love the AP4 all the more.
@SagasuRunning waaaw.... okeey.... thanks for your opinion.
Wait I looked at Nike's website, the Alphafly 3 size 9us men should be 218g. Almost 10% heavier than Adios4. What should be as light as adios4 are the Vaporfly3 and Metaspeed Sky.
The specs in this video are directly from the brands and the L/R weights are my actual shoes that i weighed myself. The weight is nearly identical between these two on my scale in US M9. The VF3 and MSP are both lighter.
@@SagasuRunningwhoaaa. You're lucky your AF3's are 20% lighter than Nike's spec.
Mine are US Men’s 9… Nike specs US men’s 10…. So spot on….
Hi what shoe is the best for wide feet
Between these two? The AF3 is the better option but still not great. The Saucony Endorphin Pro 4 is likely the best option for wide feet and super shoes…. Or the older Adidas Adios Pro 3.
Question: can Nike moderate its drops to make its shoes more palatable to more of the market, or is it captured by and afraid of alienating its existing 10 mm drop-accustomed user base? I want to try Nike's new trainers; they are doing some interesting things. But all I have to do is try one on and walk around the DSG shoes area and I know it's just too thin in the forefoot for me.
You know... the drop thing is oddly funny to me. The comment above yours (in my view) is about how low drops are awful. No one is happy...and as a runner who (often on a weekly basis) runs in shoes ranging from 0-10mm drops it's really a non-issue for me personally.
The "Nike feel" is definitely one that puts you up one your toes with a lot of ground feel in the forefoot (I made a video on all of this). That is just what Nike goes for and I love that feel. Though Nike is seemingly moving many shoes to 8mm drops now and I suspect we will see a 6mm drop or two in the coming years as stack heights get out of hand.
@SagasuRunning You're right; I misspoke somewhat. The 10 mm drop isn't really the issue. I run mostly in Asics, which are mostly 8 mm drop give or take. Not much difference. The thing for me really is the 'Nike feel' you have mentioned here and expanded on previously, the way Nike midsoles tend to taper in stack thickness very aggressively from the ball of the foot forward. Given that this is a defining characteristic of Nike training designs that a great number of runners have been running in for years, it's probably not realistic to expect Nike to move away from it. Other brands have modified their general feels in recent years -- a Brooks shoe in 2024 runs very differently than one from 2021, for example -- but Nike is in somewhat of a different market position from other brands. It's something akin to the dilemma market leaders often get bitten by, wherein they find it difficult to chase the market's general direction as it changes, out of fear of alienating their very substantial customer bases.
Still, this new reorganization of its training lines and some of the things it is doing in this latest set of releases gives me hope that Nike is ready to apply the same formidable engineering and design expertise, which has made its racing shoes the best in the market, to the broader consumer/'hobby jogger' market. I hope it does. Nike has been *the* force in innovation in athletic footwear for, well, forever really, and the entire market benefits from having to pay attention to what it's doing. The Adios Pro 4 is a great example of this.
Nike definitely has a specific feel and I find that that is likely very intentional from an engineering and performance POV.
You’ll see some new geometries from a few Nikes in 2025.
You are right, many brands have “modernized”, namely Adidas and Asics, who also once had a similar feel to Nike. That means there is choice out there in the marketplace.
Brooks is going to a rather extreme of all of this. Ultra low drops and ridiculous stacks. However, Brooks know their consumer.
Performance aside, which one feels more enjoyable to run in?
Ah! That is the question, right. I thought about this for the past hour and have to say it is the AF3 for me. Every time I put that shoe on it makes me smile. Sometimes due to workout results and sometimes due to just how otherworldly the ride can be.
I tried both. If these are the only shoes I have to choose from I’d go for Alpha coz Adidas is just too narrow for me.
But I actually go for the Vaporfly.
The VF3 is more narrow than either of these shoes? Though the Vf3 upper is MUCH more accommodating than either. As a longtime VF racer...I'd pick either of these shoes over the VF3 for racing right now. However, the VF4 could change that in 2025... we shall see.
@
Actually no. V3 is the widest for me. That’s why I use them for anything longer than 15kms.
It’s actually almost 1cm narrower than the AF3. However, the upper on the VF3 is VERY accommodating in both the material but the construction. So yes, it feels wider but you are actually running on a much narrower platform.
Also, I’m a fan of the VF3 because of the narrowness. It’s noble and agile and wonderful because of that.
@
I forgot to mention it’s the toe box I was referring to.
I got ya… the volume in the VF3 upper is also high… add the accommodating upper and yes… the shoe feels very roomy… buts it’s not compared to the AF3 or AP4. That accommodating upper is why some of us love the VF3 and others really dislike it. I was very polarizing.
The arch in the nike arch killer 3's still a big no no for marathon distance. So as good as zoom x is it's just not an option for me personally.
I hear so many people complain about it but yet nike do nothing.
They fixed it in the AF3. I can't wear both AF1 and AF2 but finally can wear the AF3 with no issue
Nike refined the arch considerably in the AF3. it was one of the key changes and it solved the arch issue for many. So Nike "listened" and in the launch spent A LOT of time discussing the arch issues and refinements.
As someone with high arches I have never had any issue with AF or VF midfoots though.
This...
@livegreatalways They made the midsole wider but the plate still passes over the air pods inside the same area and causes rubbing. So it's different but not fixed for me personally. I can run alphafly but not for marathons as the pain is too much.
I mean… that dynamic of the plate over the AirPod on the medial side can’t really be helped given the position of the AirPod in relation to the arch. The only solve would be for Nike to move to a AirPod like what is in the Pegasus Plus that is continuous and can be molded around the arch. They may actually not be too far off from what I think they will eventually do as well.
Got them here for 200,- euro. Wonder how they feel like in 10-21km races
Both shoes are great for that distance, surprisingly so.
alpha fly 3 it’s my dream shoes want to buy it, but my budget does not allow😢
Keep saving… little by little.
I Like the new designs where brands are brining back a ever so slightly durable toe bumper be it a piece of Tape or between mesh layers, not like the older trend Addias started in the 2010's of no toe bumper or a toe bumper that is a thicker mesh/tighter weave at most that is part of a one piece mesh upper. ASCIS until recently used this trend the most in almost all the shoes they made except budget/trail models until recently when hidden toe bumpers or the tape like products became the trend. I blame in 2010's the Adidas with the shoes with expensive lifestyle models with the Bounce midsole that were like a clone of a more beefy midsole version of the Nike Free that even cheap Walmart/discount shoe place, models for brands that Avia, Athletech, and older Walmart Starter Copied with some of these brands still making shoes like this today.
As someone with very sensitive toes and toenails, I agree.
Adidas upper is still a no for me though they are improving. nice comparison!
It a massive step in the right direction given where Adizero uppers have been for many years. It is hard to beat Atomknit 3.0 though...that is a VERY good textile.
A video nobody asked for and needed (probably) but a video that is the most important :D
durability wise it will be interessting. AF3 seems very inconsistent... reel heel striker seem to shredd through these like a hot knife through butter, while fore to midfoot striker seem to get a really decent durability out of them.
Durability for the AP4 is unknown. The AF3 has over a year of use and the wear issues are known and what causes certian problems (same as the VF3 really). So one can work around it if they understand their running form.
The rocker and toe spring on the ‘3 stripes’ look bananas. I’m really not feeling these bonkers rockers anymore
It's really not that bonkers on foot as the softer foam now pancakes out when loaded. It's not like the AP3 where the forefoot rocker was always present and could feel like falling off a cliff at time.
Alpha has better fit, very little heel movement.
I do prefer the heel fit in the AF3...but the AP4 is not bad at all.
When I hear the foam is so soft that they wonder about the longevity of the Pro 4. Also hearing the “snap” that makes it fast diminishes immensely at 50-60 miles. That sucked a whole lot out of “gotta have them” for the Pro 4.
Ya, this is the biggest unknown. I'm going to try to push my AP4s to 320km (200mi) and come back with a video on durability. That might not be until the spring though. My guess is the new foam will be have a lot like ZoomX traditionally has. 150-200km of good racing and then another 200km+ of training. For a super shoe I'll always take performance over durability...but as a longtime ZoomX runner, I'm fine with the above. The AP3 was an edge case on durability and never had the performance for me when compared to Nike or Asics (or even Saucony).
game of throne lol
?
“Adidas fixed all the issues with the upper”……..WRONG! The sling system heel counter is still an Achilles shredder. The way they bring the plastic center post up all the way to the top of the heel counter and curl it back in towards the Achilles just completely blistered me up in less than 5 miles. Could feel it starting about 10 minutes into the run. I have Boston 12, Adios 8 and Takumi 8 and those are all great, but the heel counter on those are about 1cm shorter and don’t have the harder plastic center post that goes all way to the top. Back in the box and to Adidas the Pro 4 goes. Back to Puma DNE3 as my race shoe which has no Achilles heel disaster and same energy return from the ATPU midsole, if not ever so slightly firmer feel for more response.
For you maybe. I didn't get any issues on my heel or achilles. I can see where some might, but even if it happens it's a very easy solve with a band aid/plaster or two. Annoying for some yes, but by no means the nightmare of the AP3 upper.
I do agree the Adios 8 heel is very good. The B12 heel could give me issues at times. Again though, bandaids/plasters resolve this easily.
@@SagasuRunningactually, for me the Achilles cutter is worse on the 4 than it was on the 3. I could get to about 10-12 miles before I really started to feel it, but with the 4 I only got 1.5 miles in. Believe me that a plaster doesn’t fix it for me. Tried that and no go. Again the rest of the upper is great, but the heel counter is a disaster. My engineer mind looks at how it’s designed and question how anyone could have thought angling a sharp plastic edge back at the heel is a good idea for a shoe, nonetheless one that is supposed to be comfortable for 26.2 miles. Point being, for anyone that had Achilles blistering issues with the 3 the beware of the 4. Did you experience the Achilles issues with the 3?
I didn’t get any Achilles blistering with the AP3, maybe the only pain I didn’t get from that upper. The B12 was the one that could cut into my Achilles. The Adois 8 and TS10 both gave me no issues.
I just took another look at the heel tab (blinker) on the AP4 and it’s the same fundamental design as the TS10 except it’s a few mms higher (you are right) which is likely what clauses the issue for some heel shapes.
Asics are the shoes they give me Achilles pain and blistering/cutting. Especially the Metaspeeds.
@@SagasuRunningI don’t have the TS10 so can’t compare but do have the TS8. B12, TS8 & A8 all have a slightly less curled and bit more straight vertical heel cup when viewed from the side than what AP4 does and that curl along with being higher is a bad combination. The Metaspeeds also have that high, deep cup/curl and also caused me blistering but not as short order as the AP4 does. I had high hopes to have a complete Adidas rotation, but maybe they’ll get it right in the AP5. And they were so close. At least I have the Puma DNE3 that doesn’t cause me any issues and the midsole and ride is just as good as the AP4 is IMO
At least you found what works for you. 👍🏻
low drop of the adidas, no tks
It does feel low...especially compared to the AF3.
bias
For? Me preferring Nike and ZoomX? Well, yes... very much. The fact the AP4 is so close is a BIG win for it.
@@SagasuRunning win ? lol! price alone is a big win for ap4! wtf!
@@SagasuRunning and you just said they are the same performance wise a big lol!
🤦🏼♂️
@@SagasuRunning and the durabilty ap4 will win for sure 100%