Lithium vs. Lead Acid for Off-Grid Living
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2019
- I just returned from Solar Power International in Salt Lake City where I was invited to speak on my RV solar off grid experience. I had the opportunity to speak with Mark Snyder about lithium vs lead acid, off grid batteries and renewable energy systems.
Weekly uploads on full time RV living, life on the road, tips and RV adventures in my fifth wheel RV.
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There is a huge difference between Lithium Ion batteries and Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (LiFeP04). I would disregard Mr. Snyder as his information seems to be outdated as lithium Iron Phosphate is the battery of choice for RVs. (Not regular lithium batteries). I noticed he has lots of mixed up information about different types of lithium batteries. If you are going to talk about them then please give out accurate information. It is sad that he has not kept up with the dramatic differences of different chemistry batteries.
Adorable emblem, l'm hoping to see it again in upcoming events. Take care
Great interview Pippi !! It was very eye opening!
Yes, on how outdated the interview information is based on. Such misinformation. And, she's still drinking his coolaid.
@@ScubaSteveCanada ,
Lol. You are the one drinking the "Will" cool aid. LMAO!
Thanks Pip
I use the new Lithium batteries only in my motorcycles, basically for small size and weight purposes. Our cars and motorhome still have the old lead acid system and so far, no problems. Thanks Pippi for this informative interview.
Going forward which set up do you plan to install on your rig? Or will I just have to be patient and wait for the video. Loved the interview.
Thank you for this important "class."
Hi Pippi,
I kept hearing you two referencing lithium ion batteries… Are you referring to the 18650 based battery banks? This is what Tesla and others use, Or are you referring to lithium iron phosphate type batteries such as the ones used in wheelchairs and those sold by “Battle Born”?
Wow, pippi, you’re so smart it’s intimidating!
I'm in Salt Lake and this conference just happened. And there is so much information out there. The key is doing your own research and that was mentioned several times and the guy said feel free to call. So I think if you have specific questions it would be good to call. One thing for sure is the myth that you can drain them 100% is being challenged. Even Battleborn is saying if you do that you lose more than half the life use of the batteries and they just posted that. So just don't talk to one person or rv shop. It is important to do your research. I use lead-acid and was interested in changing because I can only use 50% and even less if you want them to last forever. I run everything thing on my 6 batteries and in 2 years have only used 10 total charge cycles. With the others saying that 50% then you have to start comparing costs, weight, and use. Every person is different. Thanks for opening up this discussion Pippi. Interested in next months live cast.
Kudos!
Excellent discussion. In an airplane that sits for a long time, with a solar charger, lead acid batteries were lasting about a year. I was unhappy about spending three times as much for an AGM battery. But I have found that the AGM has out lasted lead acid batteries by three times. Both types of batteries are, of course, aviation rated batteries. In this application the lessened inconvenience and maintenance cost has been well worth it. I wonder if AGM batteries would have the same benefits for RV applications?
The best part of this Vid. was it is in plane old English . Great Info. , Tips an know how . Thanx once again Pip .
The worst part is Pippi based it on out of date, biased information.
Thank so much Miss PP & Mr. MS.This helps with my anxiety over my Li-ion battery life concerns and other issues although it still seems to be a guessing game due to the extended time frame (6-10 years?) Hey, big wet git well kiss for your bo-boo....MUH..!!... Love Kelly !!!
Thanks Kelly, it’s on the mend!
I also found many of the things stated slanted from todays industry. If you're talking lithium always state what chemistry you are referring to as there are many with different safeties and criteria. Burning up an inverter is not a battery issue it is a load issue. Do not lump those together. If you overload anything electrical you can burn it up. You can use glass solar panels with feet and glue/tape the feet down and that has been safe for years. Did you know many skyscrapers have their windows taped to the frames?
Also if I got this right , you showcased the RV in the intro because that was your first big install (that most of us saw) , I understand this as a new interview with the old info for a perfect intro set up 😉
That’s correct. Current interview and the reason I was invited to speak was because of my experience with the install on the rig shown.
Pippi Peterson , that’s what I thought , I was really replying to a comment I saw that I thought was unfair 😉
I appreciate that, Simon 😄
Pippi Peterson , Pippi you put me to shame , I love the way when you get into your thing you go the whole way , I admire everything you have done up to now , I admire your mind , I am a mechanic by trade and you need a enquiring mind and to always have the ability to learn , this you do all in spades , I love people that are genuinely interested in what they are doing , this you also do in spades , I feel after seeing you drive (which is what I have for the 25 years) I would love to buy you a beer , you are totally at home and comfortable , and also willing to learn , even though you are quite the expert yourself . Us normal people need you to filter this knowledge down and I don’t like to see people knock you because they don’t understand . At the moment I follow two people and you are one of those 😉 please keep doing your thing , live life , travel enjoy , and learn , and I bless you for letting me watch xx
Good Stuff! Thanks for sharing.
I have only seen one LI-ION setup that works in mobile. Tom Morton setup a heater, discharge limiter, and charge limiter. Adding those extra electronics does make it safer, but it is still not quite as safe as Lithium iRon phosphate. Amazing how different that "R" changes when it comes to chemistry. Ion and iRon are not the same when it comes to lithium. Also Lithium ION is 24 volt and Lithium iRon is 12 volt.
Hiya Pippi, interesting topic :) ... one bit of feedback in regards to sound, if you plan to interview people more often (which can be really interesting as long as it's relevant), try and get a muffle on the microfoon, there is quite some cracking on the sound :(
Yeah that was bad audio. You might see if if you can run the audio through an EQ and notch out all the pop noises. The material was interesting though.
I enjoy your videos. Do you know anything about Vmaxtanks XTR 155 amp 12 v batteries vs 2 6v golf cart batteries.
My wife and I need Cpap’s at night but want to boondocks in our 5 th wheel.
I don’t know about those however the smaller amps you can go in single batteries the better. But that means more batteries to tie together to get 12V. I have a video on calculating specifically your energy consumption needs. You should do this specifically for your two machines because at night is when you won’t be charging. I recommend not calculating for 50% depth of discharge but only 25% because these machines might be heavy drawers. That also means more batteries. But if you can accomplish this you will be set.
Philips Respironics runs on 12 VDC so you can eliminate an inverter to go from DC to AC and then eliminate a power brick to go back from AC to DC.
John Darby
We have the DC cords to plug in directly to our batteries. I don’t know the amps that both will use with humidifiers
I use cpap and bonedock too, I bought a battery for the cpap and it more than gets me through the night without using the humidifier, I didn't want to run the cpap on the house batteries. In the morning i plug the battery in and it charges off the solar along with the couch batteries.
Lithium ion phosphate is different than the common Lithium cobalt battery so I’m not sure which you were discussing. Sounds like cobalt. Lithionics in Clearwater Florida makes a fabulous battery easily usable to 10% and fully chargeable to 100% regularly, compared to cobalt, like in a Tesla. Lead acid is just useless. Maybe you should talk with them and get more relevant information. Still subbing and enjoyed many hours of your videos.
A way to make sure your batteries are " mobile " rated is to use ones from a electric car
WOW.. the comments! I feel for you, Pippi - you put so much time and effort in this very informative and yes "generally current" video. It is always controversial when talking about batteries because "lets face it - talking batteries is like talking religion or politics". In Pippi's defense - this video is "Generally Current and Accurate". Even the leading Lithium Batteries from battlebornbatteries only started selling them online in 2016, so someone tell me how a company with only 4 years of online experience can possibly know themselves much-less guarantee their battery will last 10 years? With that said, I'm a big fan of Battelborn's LiFePO4 Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries... they are 1/3 the weight in the same footprint as AGM/Lead-Acid batteries with zero maintenance and Battelborn's advertising boasts their batteries are renewable, sustainable green energy batteries "although who knows if they really are 100% recyclable or if they actually do recycle every battery" - I'm just saying. Keep your chin up Pippi, and keep your fantastic videos coming. Happy and Safe Travels - wherever life leads you!
Can you please show us your current set up in the fifth wheel? Seems all the videos in your play list are for the class A
The current rig doesn’t have any set up at the moment.
@@PippiPeterson looking forward to the videos of when you set it up.
Thanks Pippi for sharing this video. I watched your RV battery build I learned a lot from you on that build. Hug the pups for me Ed
What year was this recorded, judging the content probably 8 years ago, things have changed a lot with batteries since then , it is hard to keep up with ever changing technology
Filmed on Wednesday of this week
@@PippiPeterson The "facts" presented are way, way out of date. No one in the RV industry uses Lithium Ion batteries Pippi. We use Lithium Iron Phosphate which are far safer, most cost effective, in the long term, better charge/discharge rates, etc. I suppose you even think they can't be charged when below freezing … even that issue has been solved by manufacturers installing heaters inside the cells. Didn't know that? Do proper research and don't go by a person who is biased. How about showing us one RUclips video of anyone that had LiFEPO4 batteries and went back to using AGMs or flooded lead acid? Just one video. I strongly suggest you get the facts from Will Prowse.
Hi Pippi, That was a Great Interview!:) I was great to hear from someone with so many years of experience. As opposed to those, taught by Advertising Spiel and the going Trends. With no long term Data to back up their claims. I have always thought, that these "New Battery Green Technologies" are much more of a Pollution Problem, as well... I originally found your channel. When you were building a Solar Panel from scratch. And have enjoyed your videos, ever since:) Don
I’m so glad you appreciate his extensive insight and knowledge. It’s amazing how many people want to argue against it.
@@PippiPeterson Ya, seems that People only want to hear. What they Want to Hear... And I'm sure, that some of the arguments are coming from those who have a vested money interest in the subject... Don
@@DonBishopDonSongsMisinformation based on outdated technologies and biased "expert." NO one should be using Lithium Ion batteries in an RV. LiFEPO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) is what we use, is proven, is definitely cost effective, has far better charge/discharge capability. You don't need to believe me, nor Pippi. Try to find one single RUclips video of anyone that used Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries and decided to go back to using AGMs or flooded lead acid … just one. And, there's a reason for that! I had AGMs, now have LiFEPO4 and have already carried over from my original RV to my current RV. How many people have ever done THAT with their AGMs and/or flooded cells … they don't! Even Pippi … and, she knows it and knows why too.
@@ScubaSteveCanada,
Duh, at that crazy price, of course you will carry them over, you are now married to them, and are praying that they last as long as it is claimed by the manufacturer.
What a silly argument! Lol.
Very interesting and gives us lots to research and think about prior to an install. Safe travels kid. Cheers!!!
Pippi, I have been following you and supporting you for some time now. As a friend and faithful follower, I say this. I am not a troll, but a helpful electrical engineer. This video is out of date. I knew it was not recent when I saw your thumbnail showing your Class A and not your fifth wheel. Then when you started talking, you were talking about lithium ion battery technology. I stopped watching only six minutes into it because the information your expert is giving is very out of date. Instead of lithium ion, which is dangerous just as he is saying, the much more reliable and safe is lithium iron phosphate. The reliable construction is not the prismatic cells that many are using because of spacial efficiency but instead cylindrical cells give much better longevity. Because there are some limitations with the lithium phosphate battery, one needs to buy batteries that have the safeguards built into the battery rather than counting on external safety circuits. Examples: lithium phosphate batteries should not be discharged below twenty percent, they must not be charged below freezing temperatures (actually it is more like twenty-eight F but a save cut off is freezing) or they will never be useful again. Follow up with the two guys at Battleborn Batteries and they can give you up to date information. Even a short conversation with them will show you that they know what they are talking about, in the chemistry, physics, application, etcetera. Go really in depth with them and you will quickly learn that they really know what they are talking about. Again, I am sorry to disagree with your video. It was correct when lithium ion was the technology of the day but that has changed. I really hope you find this helpful and not critical!!
I agree, this is very old information. Batteries are changing very rapidly. What a shame.
😲 what!? Now I'm confused all over again 😒
Seabliss you need to trust in what has a proven track record. Technology with no proven track record is risk. None of this has been around long enough to live up to the claims. The bleeding edgers are the guinea pigs. Do you want to be a guinea pig Seabliss?
@@PippiPeterson good advice. No way do I want to be the GP.
One thing that is missing in the discussions is how the AGM batteries were made as appose to how they are made today. Today they do not have plates as they once did. the plates today are a paste and do not hold up as well in ex-stream weather or altitudes. Not many places to get this information so I tare open my old batteries to find out. Currently using my old car battery I bought in 1975 and had reconditioned from time to time. how long dose your batteries last?
Thank you so much Pippi. That interview was very informative.
Misinformation based on outdated technologies and biased "expert."
@@ScubaSteveCanada ,
Ha, progress. At least you are admitting that he is an expert. Unlike the name you through out who is not an expert and is biased. Lol.
John Diezel sorry John, but expert was in quotes.
Some great discussions here! Thanks for chiming in with your knowledge.
40 Years ago at the Thomas Edison Home in FL I was told that Edison Submarine batteries were still in use ???
and at the EDISON TOWER museum in MENLO PARK, NJ his Eternal Light in the towers were replaced by LED's YIKES!
@@gertraba4484 Come to think about it .. It seems I was told that some Edison light bulbs still work ..
@@mikeskidmore6754 I have some incandescents and compact fluorescent bulbs that still work. After America was advised to use the compact fluorescent bulbs, because they use less watts and last longer than the traditional incandescent, out pops the LED.
Very nicely explained video. : )
This would be a great live panel discussion with content specific to RV if you get industry wide experts from both ends of the spectrum. I see too many channels are on the Li bandwagon and sold there sole to Battleborn without truly understanding basics on Ohms law.
I’d love to host a video with both sides. However the lithium side can not be a marketer. Only someone who’s had them ten years and happy. Oh wait, that doesn’t exist yet.....
Pippi, Great story. Excellent information! Thank you.
Great video. I will keep my agm batteries and manage them carefully.
Hi Pippi, excellant interview ! Iv learned a lot. Thank you to Mark for such excellant knowledge. So appreciate him very much. Looking forward to Oct live feed. I'm watching always.
Great interview
Thank you for this interview. I like you as you are. You tell the truth and do the best you can. You were invited to tell your story. Your sharing this information on your channel.
Great video, thanks
Thank you for this!
What an informative video. Small problem: found it one day after having installed two BB batteries and being told I could run both A/C and microwave at same time without problems. What now? Throw $2000 away and redo or add more BB?
I’d love to hear how it all went down in 10 years. Hopefully you’ll still be using them. Just be aware of your discharge rates and reserve quantities and draw you’re pulling compared to that.
gwn1947,
To add to what Pippi has said, watch your charging rates and voltage too. Unless you have a large battery bank, you will not be able to run your a/c units. If you can live with that, you should be ok as long as you're within specs.
@@johndiezel5781 thanks much. Had the converter changed at same time as battery installation and will install a monitor to keep a close eye on them.
@@PippiPeterson thanks, will do.
Hi GWN this is exactly the calls that I get daily , Michael the frustrated thinks I am crazy but the salesmen selling the batteries are hard selling customers telling them that they can run their whole house if you look at the battery specs we can figure out what you can safely run on your batteries please give me a call and I can walk you thru it. contact me. marksnyderelectric.com
We have been on solar for fifteen years. Before that I installed hundreds of solar systems. I really liked the video. I believe the video to be very good and I thank you for the great information.
Very interesting Pippi, thank's for posting.
Mark was a great guest speaker. I learned a lot from you both.
👍👍👍
Excellent interview!
Sorry Pippi, but you’ve been badly misled by this guy who obviously has an enormous bias towards lead acid. Let’s break down just some of the things he got wrong in the first few minutes before I had to turn off the video in frustration:
1) There are literally millions of lithium batteries out there in electric vehicles all over the world, and the instances of fires outside of crashes are statistically almost non-existent. When properly maintained and charged/discharged they’re a far safer form of energy than lead acid
2) Once setup properly, lithium batteries are almost maintenance free. The same can never be said of lead acid, especially flooded.
3) When you calculate energy density, quantity of charge/discharge cycles, charge/discharge efficiency, Depth of Charge ratios and many other factors, lithium is a far less expensive choice than lead acid in the long term. No contest.
I’d go on to debunk more of this guy’s claims but I just couldn’t waste that much time when he started out with so much patently false information. I’m sure he’s a nice old man, but his data is about 20 years out of date.
Lithium is still too finicky for RV use. I can all but ignore my sealed lead acid batteries. If I do kill a battery, it is no big deal. $100 vs $1,000.
@Mustang .308 What he said doesn't mean that he supports that. In the meantime, you stop using your laptop and cellphone.
Hi Michael, it sounds like you need to hire yourself out to train people who are being sold lithium batteries how to use them they are simply not plug and play technology . I have 1200 ah of lead acid 2 volt cells that cost $14,400.00 24 years ago and they are still at 90% capacity. I get an average of 10 calls a day from people that are having issues with their lithium batteries. Mostly overloading them. They were not informed they must limit their loads. Please explain more about the false information. I assure you everything I said in the video comes out of my over forty years in the field. I am at the cutting edge of many new technologies and have built several of the largest micro grids in the US . I also have 325 solar powered water purification systems my invention in Iraq providing clean drinking water to 600,000 people a day. I am currently working on three new inventions and have two prototypes in testing.
Mustang .308 yes, because lead acid batteries are SO much better for the environment 😉. Puhlease, come back when you actually have an understanding of what environmental impact really means 👋🏻
Mark Snyder what’s your daily DoD on those cells? Daily, not weekly or monthly. How many times have you 50% discharged and fully recharged(fully cycled) those batteries? How many Ah total do you have? How much do those batteries weigh? What’s your cost per USABLE KWh? How much voltage drop do you get at 80% DoD, 60% DoD vs Lithium? What’s your charge capacity at 32F vs what you get with lithium(I’ll help you here, it’s 18% vs 92% of rated DoD capacity for lithium.
I will agree that most people don’t understand how to properly utilize their batteries. If you regularly discharge LA batteries below 50% you’re severely damaging your capacity and will quickly kill them. 80% is the most recommended discharge for most lithium chemistries, although you can go to 90% with the newer less common ones. 70% is better though, you can get an extra 1K-2K cycles that way.
I can go on and on, but it’s obviously a waste of time given my audience. So I’ll just leave that right here. 😉👋🏻
Well if you were confused about this topic before or just didn't know anything before this. I think I'm going to look for another source an not fool with solar at all because of any battery.
Pippi what and how many batteries are you using in your 5th wheel now?
It was on my older rig that I built and installed my custom solar set up. The current rig doesn’t have anything yet
I understand been following you for years. What is your current setup? 1, 2 etc batteries? Wet cell, AGM? Thanks
@@PippiPeterson So why didn't you move your batteries to the new rig? Not cost effective?
A education Thank you both .
A BAD education.
First thing... Engineers are super conservative...especially electrical engineers. BTW, Pippi's dad is an electrical engineer! What you hear from them is what is known to be absolutely correct. If you look past the whole lithium/lead-acid argument (and try and ignore your own personal bias) what Mark says about how people use their inverter's, loading, battery capacity, mobile certification or track record of the company making the batteries, etc. is good solid advice regardless of your battery technology choice. He is absolutely correct in that the lithium batteries we are installing in our RV's are not UL listed as electrically safe nor are they mobile certified. And not until they are will an engineer 'guarantee' that they are as safe as lead-acid. That day is coming soon. I'll bet 99% of the people who install lithium in their RV's have no concept of these things and they are super important from a safety perspective.
My own personal bias... I waited 5 years for the technology to mature before I put lithium in the RV I live in full-time. I did a pretty extensive google search and could not find one incident of an RV fire that was attributed to lithium batteries. I'm not talking about those Will Prowse (there are others) cobbled together Franken lithium battery packs, reclaimed Tesla batteries, etc. but commercially manufactured lithium cells intended to be installed in an RV. I'll stand corrected if someone provides other evidence.
Finally, and this put me over the safety hump, many RV manufacturers are starting to equip their rigs straight out of the factory with lithium. Manufacturers are pro's at limiting their liability and would not be using lithium iron phosphate if there was any change in the risk associated with using the technology vs. lead-acid.
I agree with most of what you say.
Battle Born is actually UL listed though:
doswell.wbcci.net/files/2019/05/Spec-Sheet-most-recent.pdf
I wish I could afford two new 18 Volt Lithium batteries for my Dewalt Power tools .. I did not even know it was bad to fully discharge them.. I thought I had read that it does not hurt Lithium batteries..
You did read that. In a marketing handout. That’s the problem with believing marketing materials and flash points
@@PippiPeterson I have seen replacement Dewalt 18 volt batteries for $99.00 Instead of paying that much $$$ I bought another power tool with battery and charger for $92.00 the Problem is it was refurbished .. all though the tools still work great the batteries only lasted 2 or 3 years and I don't use them very often..
I always save all of my old batteries for recycling.. Am very disappointed to learn they don't recycle lithium.. I assumed that they did
@@PippiPeterson Flash points have not been a issue with power tools .. If you are working a battery hard you could change batteries every 5 minutes.. such as with a 4" hand held grinder.. I had been given the impression they are invincible just run them till they are dead and put them back on the charger..
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@@mikeskidmore6754 I have been using the Dewalt 18 V system for 3 years, multiple batteries, total discharge, no problems.
Whoa Pippi , that mic is way too powerful and needs a muff over the top , al your ppp and tctctctc are popping my speakers , also must say I am thick and most of this is all way over my head , I am a simple lead acid one battery kind of guy , but it did teach me that I am clever enough to stick with my simple set up , great vid and great you gave this guy a chance to spread his fine words 👍😉 xx
I know. Unfortunately it was turned up too high. It’s only me and this device is new. I don’t have it all dialed in yet.
Pippi Peterson , don’t worry no biggy , guessed it was new , I never seen it before , plus you don’t know until you know 😉 , was only a tip , I have done a little bit of vocal recording with a (ladies tights) screen in front of the mic to take the power and wind out of the voice and stop the pppp going into the mic 😉
Awesome !!!!
Interesting to listen to an expert. 👍😎
I thoroughly enjoyed this video! 😁
Sorry Pippi, I just couldn’t take the poor audio, need a dead cat for the zoom h1
or a few wireless mics for better audio
Pippi, is this a recent video, or is it old, as someone suggested?
She says further down that it’s 2 days old, and if you check the SPI schedule, it did just take place.
@@TravelingSoloMisinformation based on outdated technologies and biased "expert."
ScubaStevee62 to be honest, I didn’t make it through it all so I can’t speak to that.
👍Great interview! Stay with lead acid.My little solar system Is working for 12 years now.
Woman o woman, the thumb nail photo was awesome.
Excellent interview, Pippi. I'm shocked at how much VITAL information there is to know about batteries. I will now further my education on this subject. Thank you!
I know, right?! I’m so thankful that I could get a bit of his knowledge out there for the rest of us.
A few thoughts.... What distinguishes a "marine" lithium battery from others? Does an inverter linked to lead-acid batteries allow simultaneous use of multiple appliances? Why the difference? Surely high charge and discharge rates are user operational (educational?) issues...
Yes some of it is lack of training and users being told they can deplete the batteries fast. Then they have no idea that timing of the discharge and charge is where a lot of the danger comes in
@@PippiPeterson Do you have a training video explanation of the charge and discharge instructions / concerns. I'm not sure I understand this.
the RV or boat iself is the limiting factor as 30amp or 50amp if you have a 30 amp system you cannot run AC and microwave (or 2 ac) at the same time no matter what your power source, that is why rigs with 2 ac are 50 amp rigs. It is less about running more than one thing at a time as it is what those things are. Microwave, AC hairdryer, instatpot, induction cooktop, vitamix, are all examples of high watt appliances and on the average 30 amp RV system cannot run more than one of them at a time on shore power, generator, or solar inverter setup from batteries.
As far as the inverters getting burned up it has to do with the type of inverter. If it has dual- in dual-out (which can be installed in either 50a or 30a rv system, it has two lines to separate the appliances on. One would be used for microwave normally and the other like electrical outlets in the kitchen would be on another. Inverters with only single lines in and out can not allow more than that lines quantity to go in or out no matter if you have 30a or 50a rv
So it’s sometimes whether you have 30 or 50 but if you have an inverter you have to pay mind to it’s capacities as well.
Thanks Pippi.
My issue is finding a affordable way to charge lithium with a alternator!! A dc to dc is only 20-40 amps , starting at $500-$600 bucks, I have a nearly 1000 ah lithium bank, that can charge at 5,000 amps battery wise, but the wiring and connections only about 300a at 24v I try keeping it between 3.2v and 4v per cell, and the bank above 24v , I have heard of 'forklift' batteries have lasted 27+ years in a off grid environment. Used with wind turbines, that being said , they probably haven't truely cycled, the power consumed is probably from the turbines, or solar, and maybe 10% over night, wit part of that comming from turbines, the battery is being used like a capacitor, evening out the dips in current from the turbines!! I also have 600 ah of FLA batteries, I mostly use 10 kwh over night, and charge in the morning! And use the generator for the heavy loads! I use $79 flooded golfcart 6v batts, and 6v, L-16's the main thing is getting about 100 amps in to my lithium bank when there is no sun! I thought about manually charging to 80% with the alternator, then disconnect until the next day, allowing the solar to final charge, it would likely be at 60% , (using about 20% over night) and if no sun, chato back to 80% with the alternator, I just need to build the constant current regulator, for the alternator, limiting current, the alt will fry trying to do 100%+ power for hours, buying a charging system with alternator, is over $1k my only concern with fire, is during the charging!!if something goes awry! A bms, and HV, disconnect is a must have!! I went 24v because I don't like high constant currents, I have seen issues with connections over time, and seen 80amp circuits melt fuse holders, with 24v+ my average is 25-50 amps, with peak beint 225 or so, 5500 watts! What ever that comes to. This is unlikely, normal highs are about 100amp draw DC, with 80-100 amps solar, my power during day hours will be rom solar mostly! Great video, I respect wisdom, and enjoy technical info about things like this, I'd like to see more of this type stuff!!
Great video
Misinformation based on outdated technologies and biased "expert."
How exciting to see you ask my question. And thank you very much for asking it. Prior to this, I hadn't really considered his suggestion. I was merely looking at either lithium or the cheapest until I could afford the best. But his explanation that I should consider AGM now makes perfect sense. Thank you so much, Pippi. --- And for what it's worth, to answer his question, I am primarily intersted in maximizing my boondocking power.
So glad you got some great info out of it!
Mark talks about keeping your charge and discharge rates low for Li-ion. Does this mean that he is saying that you can charge and discharge faster for Lead Acid? If so this is the opposite to what I've heard before. If that's not what he's saying then the way he spoke about it is very confusing.
No, LiFePO4 batteries have very low internal resistance compared to led acid. They can be charged and discharged safely at high rates. This is what makes them particularly desirable for RV use. They do not need staged, reduced charging towards the top end meaning that they can absorb solar panel energy at a faster rate even as the battery gets close to full. It is normal for LFP to have a full 1C discharge rate meaning a 100 Ah battery can be discharged at 100 Ah. In a led acid battery your voltage would sink too low to make the battery viable. Internal resistance (heat) is wasted energy and why when you look at discharge curves for lead acid batteries the usable capacity plummets under high loads (as well as cold temperatures)
@@harleyd500 Yeah, this is the sort of things I'd heard before. But I'm not even sure what Mark in the video is saying. He says keep loads low for Lithium but does not really say anything about loads for Lead acid. To give him the benefit of the doubt he could be saying keep loads low for both battery types and his suggestion is to do that with a cheaper lead acid battery. Either way it has not been very clearly communicated in this video.
This is true Lee. It’s already common knowledge that lead acid needs low loads and energy reserves for lead acid. Lead acid banks are pretty much only designed to always have reserve. The danger is that marketers of lithium brands are saying you can fully deplete lithium batts so those banks are not designed to always have a reserve. And as the reserve wears out and higher loads are used (because of no concern for depletion) the batteries heat up very quickly. Two reasons they heat up, the speed of depletion and the higher the load in comparison to the decreasing reserve.
@@PippiPeterson Pippi, please understand, you've been duped by Mark. Lithium Iron Phosphate is what we use in the RV industry; Lithium Ion is an outdated chemistry that should NOT be used in an RV. Please do proper research before posting such a video. You have done your subscribers a disservice. One day you will come to that realization … probably when you finally get fed up with changing out your battery bank every 4 - 5 years.
HI Lee, if you check out lithium batteries they have a specific charge and discharge rate per battery . . Normally lead acid deep cycle batteries are rated on a 20 hour basis for discharging the larger the battery capacity the higher the discharge that is in the sweet spot. My 1200 ah batteries can be discharged at 1200/20=60 amps per hour at 48vdc and I do not discharge more than 50% daily this is about 28.8 kw of energy available per day. I have 12 kw of solar so by 10 -11 am my batteries are charged and I am running dc coupled with floated batteries all day . I have a well evap cooler refrigerator ,led lights, water heater,pressure pumps etc.My batteries sweet spot for charge rate is 10% minimum and 15% optimum. This is true of most lead acid deep cycle batteries. MS
Interesting I know nothing about solar. I have wired many houses but it's AC which is a whole other ball game. I've never asked even about solar. But I do wonder why does solar have to be DC where the charge from panels has to go into a battery. Why can't that solar power go into a transformer into AC.
OMG!!! OMG!!! This is the most misleading video I can ever remember viewing. I wanted to go through my screen and stop the both of you from talking and making fools of yourselves. Those of you leaving comments of support, I feel so bad for you. Practically everything you heard is FALSE. OMG! I'm just flabbergasted! I've been a loyal subscriber since the beginning; shame on you Pippi for disseminating absolute garbage. "I'd run light loads on lithium batteries like lights and a small fridge" AAAAgggghhhh!!! I guess I should calm down now, I feel better :)
Ron Feinberg agreed
And this is because you’ve experienced all the claims to be true about lifespan on chemistries that haven’t existed for that amount of time and disagree on the fires he’s dealt with. Do you think he’s lying? Of course what he says does not concur with marketing material of lithium chemistries. Do you not believe that those claims should be in writing and warrantied?
@@PippiPeterson You are correct that companies such as Battle Born, ReLion etc are relatively new companies so their guarantees have yet to be proven. But that is the only part of your video that is correct. I'm driving my 3rd Tesla along with hundreds of thousands of others. Are all these auto manufacturers crazy? Which auto manufacturer is introducing a new electric car based on sealed lead-acid batteries?
You interviewed a man who's technological skill was relevant 25 years ago. It's analogous to interviewing an 80 year old computer programmer who studied COBOL and Fortran and asking questions about modern day programming languages.
Why didn't you interview RVers who use lithium? I'm on my 2nd RV with lithium and love them. I can run my AC the whole night. I use my induction stove, my microwave, TV's. There are so many RUclips RV channels that rave about lithium. Have you ever seen one video of them disappointed with their installation?
The fires he's referring to were people making their own lithium battery banks with custom made battery management configurations. Today's modern drop-in lithium batteries have builtin battery management systems supporting LiFePO4 chemistries.
All you've succeeded is misleading your viewers. They are all now dumber having watched your video.
Ron Feinberg agreed again!!
@@yvanlajeunesse7676 Je vous remerci infiniment!
Thank you so much for not allowing yourself to be bought by "Battle Born" like so many other RV channels. Very grateful for the time you took to get this True information out to us. 💞 You Rock! Now hubby and I can enjoy RV life without the stress of keeping up with the battery Jones 😁 and have confidence in our current set up.
Wow I'm really confused now. The engineer said go with lithium phosphate and Battleborn. Now we have another point of view. I'll stick with lead acid in the glass gel format. In 60 years of driving I have never had a fire, etc. With lead acid , just the occasional death. What ye say?
Hell yeah 👍
Come on Pippi. You are intentionally spreading misinformation. Lithium-ion is not the same as Lithium Iron phosphate. Your video talked only about lithium-ion. Can tell me anyone who is using lithium-ion as a battery source in their RVs? That's right. Nobody is. I am a disappointed that you won't even acknowledge the difference.
Actually he does mention different lithium chemistries in there but didn’t specify when he said that.
@@JayMcEntire really? Intentionally spreading misinformation? You're sounding like a stakeholder. One important fact I gleaned from this interview is that regardless of all the new technologies and YOU don't even talk about supercapacitors is that lead acid is a tried and proven technology.
How long a lithium battery lasts depends on who builds it.I had a Nissan Leaf until it was totaled recently (no fire).I can't see the Leaf's batteries lasting more than 8 or 10 years with range falling fast. Also, I bought a jetski with a lithium battery that was burnt out when I got it. It was only about 3 years old. My Ebike lithium battery only lasted 1 year before it now can't go but 1/4 the distance of when it was new (only 125 miles total). I like the AGM batteries because I can get at least 4 years in my jetski. The regular lead acid would hardly last 2 years. I think Pippi has has shown the real world facts about Lithium.
Pippi, could you ask Mark to clarify if he was referring to Lithium Iron Phosphate chemistry batteries when both of you used the presumably generic term of Lithium Ion? I ask this because a whole bunch of posters here are tripping over themselves on this, saying that he was referring to the different Lithium Ion batteries, which would not be relevant for discussions related to Battleborn and their 10 year warranty, etc.
We were nothing using the term lithium ion kind of like how I say I put gas in my diesel truck. He did say in the interview a couple times the term lithium chemistries which would encompass the different types of lithium.
@@PippiPeterson Once again, coming from the "expert" the term used is Lithium Ion - this is the chemistry used in the batteries where all the "fires" can occur. If the "expert" was discussing LiFEPO4 he would've said so … and, you know it. He was specifically discussing Lithium Ion which is NOT used by Battle Born, NOT used by ReLion, NOT used by LIfeBlue, NOT used by … please take this video down.
Hi Barry , we were discussing lithium in general the problems are universal LFP are not as dangerous but most of the calls are now problems with LI and LFP. over promised and under performing. Feel free to contact me at marksnyderelectric.com
Thank you Pippi as I don't know a lot about this stuff but I am learning slowly. When Solar came out in the beginning I supported it but people thought I was nuts. I still support it and If I had the money I would put it on my home. For those that boondock need Solar to run certain things like there phones and something to keep food from spoiling. Appreciate what you are doing. Hugs to Chase and Pearl. Love ya.
Congratulations on a VERY informative interview.
Your interviewing skills are very good. I look forward to hearing other similar interviews.
If I may suggest...
Please speak with an audio specialist regarding your sound system for future interviews. Perhaps using windscreens, dual lav mics or an external recording device would improve the sound quality of your interviews.
Kind regards.
I’m still fine tuning. It’s new equipment and it’s only me doing everything so it’s not always perfect. I did cringe when I heard it but way too important of information to neglect just because of the audio quality.
@@PippiPeterson.......
You have an excellent work ethic, so I'm 100% certain the audio portion of your interviews will improve with time.
Your are absolutely correct. That was an important interview, and it would not have mattered to me if you had used two tin cans and a string.
I learned more about battery science than I knew previously - thanks to YOU!
Best wishes!!
If the video is more than a year old, it’s outdated. When did you do this interview?. But still good information
I did this interview on Wednesday of this week
Hi Tim this data is fresh and relevant right now . I dealt today with the very problems we discussed at SOLAR POWER INTERNATIONAL LAST WEEK WHEN THE VIDEO WAS DONE. MS
Hi There Pipi great video. I have been reading the comments below. And I don’t care that it’s an older video. Mark Snyder is a legend in solar and battery power. People keep forgetting that you don’t have to post any type of video at all. And that this is a privilege to receive and get to watch on RUclips. If people really follow you. Then they can count on it. In the future you will go somewhere or meet other professionals and do a more current update video on solar and battery 🔋 power packs. Just enjoy this video people. One day. This man will go home to our lords house. And we will be left with only these gifts he left behind for us.
This interview is two days old. Please don’t believe random strangers online.
Pippi Peterson it’s a great video. Learning new things. Thankful and grateful and blessed. See ya next week Pipi. And 🤗 from me and 🐾 from Aika.
@@PippiPeterson Pippi....i respect your work, dedication & knowledge you have developed. In this case the "random" internet persons actually are right. You might try to seek out William Prowse on YT. Funny guy who has a knack to lay it out for use "unwashed masses."
I AGREED with your logic when your built your system. Even you choice of Crown brand batteries. Lithium then was not really trustworthy. And even more expensive than today. But the tech has matured a lot since that build. Today i have zero worry about suggesting LiFePO4 batteries and fire safety.
Hi I am still kicking and blazing new trails , this video was done at SOLAR POWER INTERNATIONAL LAST WEEK thanks for your comments.
Thanks Pippi.
I do have experience with various batteries technologies like Li-Ion, NiMH and Lead Acid (both flooded and AGM) from my time as mechanic and RC hobbyist. Seen Li-Ion burn and we had a small hydrogen explosion with faulty and over charged Lead Acid batteries. While Li-Ion are great for smartphones and such, planning for off grid or mobile i personally would stil go for lead acid (AGM). Was a very interresting interview especially the ability to recycle Lead Acid to a high degree is another good point that I didn't even think about (shame on me). Thank you again and I wish you a very nice weekend.
cripes I jump0ed a ni-cad once on the RC car pac and nearly torched the house when I left it on tooo long, all the charger and batts were STINKY GOOO!!!!!
Here in Kalamazoo MI Idea battery used to rebuild Lead Acid batters for trucks and fork lifts.. They were in business for years.. In other words they used the old batter housings over.. I had a 4D battery short out once in a 24 volt system .. melted the post.. they cast a new lead post on that battery for me..
Chann does not have experience with LiFePO4 or Lithium titanate going by their comment. Lipoly for RC planes are combustible and not ideal for off grid systems. Lifepo4? Great for solar power. And recycling lead acid is not nearly as eco friendly or energy intensive as lithium.
@@WillProwse Jeez Will I just want to shout out your knowledge to stop this Mark dude from misleading Pippi and a few others. Hope she eventually swallows her pride and follows your channel.
Pipi, I have watched all your vids and loved them, the way you do things and present your work is great. That being said i do find a few things that should be said about the info he gives. First he sounds like he is way out of date in his ideas, lead acid batteries are nsot as safe as he claims, as a truck driver i have seen them explode and know the damage they can do to the human body. Also consider this they outgas, in buildings this is not a problem so much if kept in an out building but in an RV they are mounted inside the structure you are living in, add to thet the fack that they get jossled around when the RV in moving and that they are prone to leaking and you have a major health risk living in your home. this is one major reason that lead paint is no longer alloud to be used, esp in homes.
The outgassing is a great point. There really isn’t a perfect chemistry, only a best for different applications. Lead acid does not explode like lithium chemistries however it can blow the tops off shooting acid wherever.
@@PippiPeterson the hydrogen gas produced by outgassing lead acid batteries can be explosive. It is not just a matter of 'shooting acid wherever'.
@@robertwilcox5670,
hydrogen does not self combust under those conditions, unlike Lithium.
David Martin,
Flooded lead acid batteries are placed in a vented external compartment, not inside the coach, so there really is no hazard in the living space...
@@johndiezel5781 I've never heard of a lithium battery 'self combusting'. Either type battery is capable of causing damage, when exposed to certain outside forces.
I think he was very biased towards lead acid batteries because of the recycling aspect. The application that most of us who are watching your videos is going to be batteries in an RV. I would bet the percentage of people who get even five years out of a lead acid battery who have a solar system and use it often is pretty low, certainly not going to get 24 years out of a couple group 27 deep cycle batteries. I don't think he wanted to talk about the lithium iron phosphate batteries, especially the ones from Battleborn because the only downside is the initial upfront cost and not good for winter camping. Only once did he mention a different chemistry of lithium battery that was safer but didn't want to elaborate on that.
What about nickel iron batteries! They are some still in use from over 100 years ago! They may work better with a large super capacitor bank, 6, farad, and can not be ran dry, and has issues with keping electrolytes in them, heavy, bulky, basically only good for off grid home use. I thought about giving the nickel ev batteries a try, then lithium creeped on at a good ppl price, with my use, being discharged for 12 hours, or not being kept fully charged, most of the time, is why I went lithium, being they can be left at nearly any charge for days, is my reasoning, I could be at 40% for days, only gaining 10% charge during the sunny hours, do that a few times with lead, you will be replacing them every year or two! The lithium, if proper charge algorithm is in place when charged, they shouldn't mind, and last a while, maybe not set records, but last a while,
While I appreciate your videos and the information you share, I feel this person has an extremely biased view and is not fairly comparing this battery products
GREAT INFORMATION, Wow. LeLe fr: Cali.
Sorry for the additional comment. Is it fair to say that the manufacturers of these batteries rely on current information from their engineers as far as the how -tos on the best use of their battery? Is it too much for us to rely on their information when we purchase their battery or I am I being naive? There have been at least 2 engineers who have commented below, and they seem to disagree in part. It happens on every YT video on RV batteries (many, too many videos). I think the prudent course would be to trust the manufacturer along with a company that has a proven track record of installations. I think the other big issue is proper installation with certified controllers and not necessarily the cheapest item Amazon sells. It's too risky. Of course, a good insurance policy for loss of an RV is always prudent. Pippi, my comments are in no way a negative reflection on the value of this video. If anything without your video and all the comments, undereducated folks like me( as far as electrical issues are concerned) would not be aware of the potential problems associated with RV electrical issues.
William, it doesn’t matter what’s fair to say. What matters is truth. And anything that has claims that can not be proven should not be taken as true or false. What can be taken as truth is experience, facts and proven results. What is true is that these companies are for-profit operations and there is a lot of profit to be made from naive buyers who willing believe and tout marketing materials. Think for yourself and do as you may. But most importantly, think for yourself.
My dad been in the electric vehicle industry for the last 25 years. He just retired and is trying to convince me to switch to lithium I'm my rig. I just don't think its worth it at least not for me I have 4 gold cart batteries and they have lasted 5 year with heavy use and still going strong.
I'm confused, that he says no lithium batteries are approved for mobile applications. Is he saying that all the car manufacturers are using dangerous batteries in their EVs or hybrids? I find that hard to believe.
He doesn't know what he's talking about.
Mobile renewable energy systems for daily living
@@PippiPeterson Pippi, you know you made a mistake … take this video down … or is the money from it THAT important to you??
@@WillProwse,
Lol. You were not even a spark in your mother's eyes when he was working with these systems. He has a whole portfolio of installations, forensics, etc. And you??? Lets see your resume...
@@johndiezel5781 mainly circuit design, low voltage marine/RV/cabin electrical and microcontroller programming. Successful projects include animatronics programmer for two years, successful drone photography business with drones I built, and long range autonomous rc planes.
I have lived off grid for 10 years, powering everything I own from solar.
Now I deal with electrochemistry. I have a few long videos where I cover battery studies and discuss various properties of lithium batteries.
Don't use age as a means of judging experience. If I don't know something, I will state it. But what I do understand is how batteries work. If you want to know about lithium and lead acid batteries, I have 30+ long video lectures that you can watch.
Pop screen that recorder or back it off in distance and use it like it can be used....stereo field mic. Otherwise GREAT!!
It’s a new device and I haven’t found its sweet spot yet. I’m hoping to get it all settled for next time.
Thanks for this video, I never really bought into Lithium is that much better over FLA, however that being said there is a place for both and Lithium does have advantages over FLA, but I can not see getting any savings out of spending all that money on Lithium. This guys seems to be very smart and I am sure he will have some good input into MFG's getting better at this, if he can team up with a good battery company, I am sure you will get a superior product. I will for now stay with Lead Acid or AGM for an RV or boat, well worth keeping them maintained, and the cost verse price.
Wonky
They mine Lithium in huge open pit mines in Afghanistan ..
And?
Wow, you really kicked a hornets nest with this video! I think in fairness to the subject matter you should do a similar interview with an “expert” in the opposing technology. Otherwise you are just putting out biased content without a counter to the claims made here. It’s like someone that’s only driven a horse and buggy saying that a steam engine is junk because it hasn’t been around for 100 years. It’s your channel though and if you don’t want to give fair time to the other side then you only have to deal with the haters in the comments.
Hi Shemp perhaps you missed that I have (over 750,000) shares in a green lithium mining company that is trying to develop more earth friendly methods of mining lithium and is also working on lithium recycling. Training appears to be one of the major problems with the industry as well as the mining and recycling practices. I welcome healthy discussion and debate. MS
Pippi, Talking Lithium vs Lead Acid, to the RV community, is a little like talking politics or religion, at Thanksgiving. Probably not a good idea!!!!
My Gosh Lithium is so expensive and so hard to mine .. I assumed it was recycled.. The Lithium is mined in Afghanistan and China I have heard..
There was a Battery manufacturing CO on the East Coast Barry Obama gave them millions they went Bankrupt and a Chinese Company bought all of the high tech manufacturing Equiptment and moved it to China..
Mike, also very interesting something I never considered was the recyclability if that's a word? If we're cranking out all of this potentially hazardous material Manufacturing these new batteries when they come to the end of their life where do they go? Boy Pippi Great Food For Thought here.
Mike....lithium is not difficult, scare or expensive to mine. It's pretty common around the planet in fact. Of course there are different grades at different regions/locations.
And the LiFePO4 batteries are far less resource taxing compared to other forms if lithium batteries.
It's an interesting topic ti learn about manufacturing if different battery technologies....give it a shot, it really made me aware if several factors i never even considered when evaluating battery tech options.
plus, China actually makes great lithium (LiFePO4 for sure) cells used to build lithium batteries now. I believe they are in the led in solar tech use and tech.
It's a huge but small world now....products have to be assembled from components produced in many different countries no matter where the final product is made.
I get a CHARGE outa this vid!
ger traba I see what you did there. 👏
@@Augiebracerofam I could have found this VID REV_VOLTING but I'm not that kinda guy !
_This a great interview and loaded with information from the best out here in solar. Thanks, this only confirms my decision in going with flooded 6v batteries for my system and how I ran my electric. Glad that I also put my heavy loads through sub-panel that is not connected to the inverter at all. The inverter runs just the easy stuff to and through another sub-panel People ready should watch this!_
interesting
Thank you for posting this Pippi. This is one of the best Solar and battery videos yet. Keep up the good work.
I also believe so. Thank you. And not because I did it but because the information is extremely valuable and not too many people know enough about batteries.
@@PippiPeterson every time i come up with a new idea for an invention, i swear to god, about 5 years later i start to hear about it on the news. and i came up with an invention i dreamed about, as i have in the past. so here is my invention, which means, in about 5 years this will be on the world wide market, a battery, about the size of of a loaf of bread, that never needs to be charged, and lasts at full power, for 100 years. and how may you ask can this be done, well, idiot mankind will eventually overturn his violent and protective dealings with nuclear energy, and finally harness its true power and shrink it down, in other words, a nuclear battery that kicks the energizer bunny back to the drawing board cause he will be extinct and the days of gasoline and diesel fumes stinking up the air and filling our lungs in all the cities of the world will be over, ha, and instead of fighting wars over oil they will be fighting wars over batteries, sheesh, where does it all end?
People like to jump on the technology bandwagon. Lead acid still works for me. When solar panels first came out they cost a small fortune. Had one waited a few years the cost now is about half. The same will be true for lithium.
Pippi, thanks so much for doing this interview! I was pleasantly surprised. I've read a number of the comments here and it seems that this is a controversial topic? Certainly due diligence is required by any end-user and information can be dated. It seems that a technology, lead-acid, that has been in use for such a long time and really dialed-in is the low risk approach. Especially if you understand how to use it and maintain it. One technology I was hoping would be discussed and possibly you can bring up in your live stream is the super capacitor storage technology. that could be a much better solution but the technology is not yet developed. By the way you really cracked me up early on in the interview when you grabbed his hand to shove the microphone closer to his mouth. You are great and I really enjoy your videos. Thank you so much.
Se queres ouvir o uivo do lobo, basta perguntar ao meu avô: - Avô há quanto tempo não dás uma ..... - AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Yikes. I love you girl but I don't have time for a video this long.
Might save your rig if not your life.
That's OK, it's incorrect information that is presented.