Only digital vernier calipers with a "round bearing" shoulder on each inward facing lip give accurate wear values . Wear is hard to measure accurately no matter what method you use , unfortunately .
That makes me feel less bad. My chain has hit 0.5 (deore) after about 200k but this is winter in England and Scotland. Very muddy, lots of grit, but I lube and wash my chain and cassette regularly. Seeing with that experiment which is not grinding with clay and sand in it reaches 400k, that doesn't make me feel my performance is too bad
I know it’s one person perspective: I’ve used deore, SLX and XT 12s chains on the same bike for the last 5 years, I could only get 6-700km out of deore and slx chains, but I get over 2000km on XT. Same transmission, same weather, same rider weight, pretty much. I also started using muc-off dry lube, dry brushing the chain after each ride and applying new lube, washing it once a month (I mostly ride in dry climate) and this seems to lengthen the chain lifespan. Where I live, XTR chains are double the price of XT, while XT is only a fraction more expensive than deore, so I don’t think I’ll try one any time soon. I’ve got a full SLX drivetrain, but derailleur pulleys, 10-45 cassette, and chain: these crucial components are in fact XT. And that’s where XT matters for real.
I think one thing you should also specifically highlight is this: SLX-tier and above chains are exactly the same chains Shimano uses for their road bike ecosystem: namely SLX=105, XT=Ultegra and XTR=Dura-Ace. This goes to show how very efficient XTR chain is in transmitting power when pedalling since it is also the chain used by pro roadies sponsored by Shimano.
This is funny. They cheaped out on 12 speed chains compared to 11 speed… the only difference between the XT and XTR 11 speed were the hollow pins. If you ride in shit conditions, the XTR 12 speed is definitely the best one. The “brown” finish rusts quickly, the “gray” is also low grade. The “sil-Tec” is bombproof. How do I know? 4 years of Canadian winter commuting. Thanks for the video.
Fellow year-round winter commuter here. Just curious if you've ever used KMC's "Eco Proteq" chains? They made them up to 11 speed and were supposedly extra rustproof too
so are you saying the M7100 or SLX that has sil-tec on the roller link plate is the best chain against rust, i would like to know cause the surface rust on the XT chain is driving me crazy, and i'm not even riding in the rain.
Thanks for the Video, I'm really shocked. Do these 12s chains wear out that fast? Some decades ago I was grinding a lot of kilometers on roadbikes and was racing too. I remember these 8 and 9 speed Campagnolo chains lasting somewhere around 5000km!
I just threw my first HG901 on my 11 speed, I think Ive always used the HG701, noticably smoother and quiter chain so far in my first few days, weight is NOT noticable as its only about 20g
... Aaahhhh ... I respectfully disagree. I pedal exclusively (3X10's) ... I will not ride a 11 or 12 speed ... it is called "CROSS CHAINING !!!" and causes higher maintenance costs and more frequent visits to the bike shop. Oh, I get approximently 9-10k miles/ chain ... maybe more as I am now experimenting w/ "hot waxings" now ....
i wander how much this result gets skewed when using a decent drip on wax or better yet immersive waxing. will the differences in longevity become less or more. thats what i wanna see.
Great overview, last week I put on a new XT chain and literally broke the plates three times in a few days, most likely a copy. Will give XTR a go from reputable dealer! cheers
These mileage numbers seem extraordinarily low. Either that test protocol is flawed or 12 speed is simply unsustainable. If those numbers are right, there are a lot of people who might get through half a dozen to a dozen chains a year ... that's just insane.
So, the test where I got the data did it using an E-Bike and I'm not sure under what conditions. For me the numbers were more for relative comparisons between each chain. I cannot find any good data on MTB chain life for these, unfortunately.
Your video summary statement has spelling and grammar errors . Please fix this , thankyou . If you install your chain at home with proper equipment , the costs are the same in practice . KMC DLC coated chains are the most durable overall .
800km on XT 8100 chain?? :o Maybe on dry, non-lubed, not taken care of. I take care of mine, it's already on 2,103.1 km and still waaay to go to 0,5% wear. I use garmin connect to track the mileage and PARK TOOL CC-3.2 to check the stretch.
I've been using the XT chain since last year. Been loving the shifting performance but I hate the fact that it's not very resilient against rust so I went back from using wet lube instead of chain wax lube. I've been trying to justify getting the XTR chain once my current XT chain wears out and I'm glad you uploaded this. I guess I now have two XTR components that I wouldn't mind getting, the calipers and the chain. 😂
@@bikingchupei2447 I agree. It developed rust just a week after installing it on my bike. Meanwhile, YBN chains I used in the past took about a year before I saw specs of rust on the links
@@hahagager I agree, those numbers seem to be heavily skewed low. They were the only results I could find that had comparisons with each chain and they were tested using an e-bike in some bad conditions.
I will check them out! I saw a few videos of theirs and their intro caught my eye because I was thinking about building a chain test system and they show one in their intro for about 3 seconds. I couldn't find any other videos though showing that off and when I saw their site I thought it was just a site used to sell their wax so I didn't dig in as far as a I apparently should have. Thanks!
According to these figures, the chain from my cheap commuting bike should be changed at least once a month... 😂😂😂 However, I think I've had this one since summer 2022!
Those numbers sound ridiculously low. I run a Shimano 105 chain for now about 10'000km - always waxed and therefore clean. Can't imagine to go through an original Shimano chain in less than 2'500km. Sounds like counterfeit products to me.
The Shimano 105 is 11 speeds, maybe not the same 12 speeds chains described in this test? The XTZ is apparently both 11 and 12 speeds, though... Also if you can wax it means not too much rain, so not the average use.
@@DR_1_1 You should look into the data: Zero friction cycling tested chains and 12 speed were more durable than 11 speed ones. The general trick for longevity is to keep your drivetrain clean. Why shouldn't wax work in a humid environment? Here in middle/northern Europe we have usually pretty rainy summers. If it rained it you should just let your chain dry, clean it (baby wipes work pretty well for a short cleanup until you put your chain in petrol/methylated spirits/... for a thorough clean) and then rewax it, e.g. you can use a wax based drip on product for that purpose. And if it's dry the waxed chain lasts 300-500km until it needs rewaxing in my experience. But you can continue to swap out your chain every week while I just check it and rewax it if you tend to believe that BS about 300km of lifetime.
I’ve been thinking about this after changing my original Deore chain last month. Got about 500 miles out of it before it was shifting poorly and stretched past .5. Going to try a more thorough lube/clean routine with the new one and see if that helps at all. If not I might make the jump to XTR… Looking forward to the rest of this series!
In a Dutch bike magazine they tested sram and Shimano in a test lab. Overall very little difference between Shimano chains, cassettes, chainrings.. overall better compared to sram with exception of top of the line sram. Which was horribly expensive.
Anrancee bike store from our local online selling platform here in the Philippines. They have many good reviews and can easily be returned if proven fake. Maybe they get them by bulk and have Sale prices sometimes. Fortunately shimano quality can be very good most of the time provided they are legit items.@@krisqz
ah yes thank you for the reminder..its from a nrancee bike shop from our local online selling platform here in the Philippines ..easily returnable if proven fake. they must be in bulk and have sale sometimes. they say xt chain rust faster@@szolekxxx
@@szolekxxx never did that. I always rode pre-lubed for the first 300km of new chain. It was always super quiet. Hell, Shimano even says your chain will never ever be lubed like that again because they are pre-lubing each part seperatley before putting it all together. It is indeed sticky, though.
Confused on typical chains said to last at 2k-3k miles to the best chain here lasting maybe 500. I switched to KMC which seem much better at price points.
I switched over to road and gravel bikes a few years back. I only use the the CN-HG901 XTR/DuraAce chains on our entire fleet. The chain is changed at exactly 1000 miles on every bike. Never an issue. Not sure though how that translates into MTB miles since I’ve been out of the realm for far too long.
A brake comparison will be challenging. There is a lot of subjectivity involved. I’ve used SLX & XT and have my own opinion. It will be interesting to watch your video when it comes out.
These videos are great, thank you. Can you do one of these comparing Shimano breaks, rotors and pads? As a big guy who rides e-mtb, brakes are still an unknown for me. Thanks.
The cleaning process tends to damage the chain, since the protective lubricant is stripped and the metal is free to soak up broken down hydrogen (from solvents breaking apart bonds) and whatever, becoming brittle and prone to cracking. Google "multiple cracks on fresh bike chain", in which people are boggled by chains self-destructing despite "meticulous care" (using degreaser).
@@VaraxisLooks like that's mainly an issue with water based degreasers, mineral spirits and IPA shouldn't cause hydrogen embrittlement. Silka has a page dedicated to the problem, interesting stuff.
The chain checker tool is super cheap if you want to check yourself. It’s super dependent on your riding style and conditions. Also, these numbers were on an E-bike so they’re not necessarily accurate to typical pedal riding. 3000km is wild though!
@@Bikes-with-Ben I bet that you cannot fill them with 10g of mud or dirt. They are less dense than metal, so propably even a muddy XTR chain will be lighter than the others
i can't believe how easily my 12 speed XT chains rust in just a couple of days, never had this happen to me when i was riding 11 speed with kmc or 11 speed shimano chains.
Same thing for XX1 chains. I'm a bit heavier so my chains don't last as long as I see online, but good maintenance makes them last a long time. Also they look nice and I've found them on sale a bunch of times.
Can you do a Shimano brakes comparison? Would it be GREAT! 1)brake lever and caliper (would it be great if you consider the 4 pistons ones) they say you could buy an SLX and have the freestroke adjust by replacing a screw and basically have the XT 2)then rotors comparison 3)maybe pads comparison, material, fins exc *)extra, the hose that is different between the lineup Thank you
well that was an angry click Edit: and bro was it justified. you are basing your math on what somebody else found in their little experiment. thats so lame. broscience at its best, get out of here.
@@SiegwardZwiebelbrudi I mention in the video how little data there is for this and ask in the comments for people to provide mileage numbers from their own experience. If you’ve got more data for me to reference, I’ll be all ears!
@@Bikes-with-Ben The video has no point though, just don't produce content if you don't have reliable data. Tbf, since i am waxing my chains, coatings are contraproductive anyway and i get my mileage out of them by riding chains in parallel, so this is not a topic i did a lot of research either, but man is there a lot of broscience for wax. Imagine how annoyed people wil be, when they realize that the numbers you used don't translate to their usecase. the data is from ebikes after all and nobody knows how well maintained the drivetrain was etc. i understand that the topic is interesting and getting your own data on this is unachieveable, but imo this is not the way to do it.
I'm usually OCD about having matching drivetrain components, but my last SLX chain rusted so fast! SUMC or YBN chains stay looking good for way longer.
I haven't had an issue with the rust, but i tend to ride in drier conditions. Also, I don't know how big of an effect it makes on shifting, but to get the truest benefits of Shimano's HyperGlide+ you need their chain along with the cassette. Now, that being said, it can't be that big of a difference maker or you wouldn't see as many bigger companies putting KMC chains on an otherwise Shimano drivetrain.
You should take care of your gear if you are getting rust. I ride Shimano 12 speed chains on my Fat Bike in winter snow so they are wet all the time. I dry my complete drivetrain after every ride and use a water dispersant like WD40 and then wet lube. No issues with rust ever. Like I said take care of your stuff
@deanemberley2333 if I had to do all that after every ride, I’d never ride again. Mine gets the good ole air dry on the drive home and that’s about it. Lubed when I remember to and my memory is crap. I haven’t had issues with rust and I’m not saying you shouldn’t take care of your stuff, but if there’s a chain out there that doesn’t rust in the conditions I put it through then I’ll be more likely to go with that chain.
That mileage seems really low. I’ve probably got 1500 miles on a cheap KMC chain and it is still within the stretch tolerances. Just measuring it with a ruler though so not super precise. Great video, love the detailed info!
don't know about shimano 12 speed, my gravel bike runs a hodge podge of sram eagle stuff. i noticed on strava that it's done 800miles since i built it when i made it i used a slightly used 46t AB oval chainring, a used but good SX cassette and a new NX chain. it's got modded sram APEX road levers with a gx rear mech, both have ratio parts to allow the shifters to do 12 speed and work with the mech. the cassette looks no more worn then when i put the nx chain on it 800miles before. i think because of the 46t chainring (the ring i use for commuting to work) keeps me out of the small cogs unless i'm doing 30mph. slapped a GX chain on it to replace it.
XTR 58$?! I didn't knew that. It's cheaper than what I pay for my AliExpress special 12s sumc dlc slr chains ... I clean them up with gasoline and alcohol then I wax them every 100/200km since 2022 I haven't had to switch any chains on my bikes... (About 1800km on the roadbike and 1200km on the most used mtb)
Just looking at the tracker for my trail/enduro bike. XTR 864km, XT 1383km & current XT 1275km (and still going). Replacing between 0,5 & 0,75. Still on the first XTR cassette.
If you run multiple chains and change after every wet ride or after 100k/6hours or more, deore and slx last much longer. I ride for the moment one deore one xt one xtr on the same bike. Xtr shortest(less wear). (Not science: offroad every ride is differen)tBut XTR almost 3 times the price of deore. Xt and deore no diffrence in rusting when not teraeted adter wet ride. Xtr less prone to rusting. Every chain around 55 hours of riding(hours of riding better reference point than km), I keep both in ecxels.. All far from wearing point. I use hotwax. Next time four deores. With deores you have to be more careful while the wear with all chains is not linear but faster the more you approach the wearing point(base on 11speed chains wear data).
Thank you for this video, these info are exactly what I need. I m going to change the chain and your infos are all I need to know about diferences among the chains :)
SO TRUE, since i first installed it last year with my full XTR M9100 groupset it still didn't take the slightest wear, more than 1000 kilometers of ride, but i do xc
I believe it was on GCN where one of the pro team mechanics said if there's something you shouldn't cheap out on it should be the chain. Side note: if you wax your cn-9100 make sure you poke the wax out of the holes. A wire hanger works pretty good.
7 cents for just the chain? cycling sucks now. i rode 200k km from 5600 dollars with full ultegra. that's 2.8 cents for everything, tyres, chain, *bikes* included. i'm going to buy a dutch bike.
Instant improvement since last video, keep it up! Thanks for the info, it really did answer to me why should I spend TWICE the price on supposedly The Same Chain But Lighter!
love the exploring and 'not knowing' of this vid. I do food delivery by e bike ( bbshd - mid drive), average 1000 miles a month. Probably changing chain and cassette every 6 months. I very specifically don't bang on the gears, and only take off in lower gears. For me the tell-tell sign of chain stretch is when the little derailleur cogs start skipping. At that point I just change chain and cassette, unless cassette is significantly newer than chain. I used to chew through cassettes but have figured out how to manage that. To me, those stretch numbers seem way too low but I guess I don't measure that regularly. I def know when my drivetrain is golden and when it is garbage. It kinda blows my mind if ppl are changing their chain every 200km. But I am always still learning about all the nuances of bike world. To me function is the only real rule.
I really wish I had some more concrete data on all of this. I only have one guys testing on one bike, unfortunately. This is making me want to build my own automated test rig and blow through some chains on a 24/7 run time to see what results we can get. Obviously wear will be super dependent on type of riding, conditions, rider, etc. But if we could setup a consistent, repeatable test we could at least gather some decent information about all this. I’m suprised Shimano doesn’t mention anything about expected life. Obviously if you ride straight, never shifting in perfect weather your chain will last forever. And if you ride in sand, uphill in a thunderstorm it’ll be worse. A good test rig may have to be in my future to settle all this unknown.
Great video. I have one question for which we don't have an answer: With the better wear capability of the XTR chain, will it cause more general wear on the chain ring and cassette? I don't know. Just a consideration.
A worn chain is what causes pre-mature damage to a cassette or chainring. Having a chain that wears out slower will be better on your other gear. Any chain that is within spec of stretch won’t do damage to your other components.
I've used the 6100 chains mostly. I tried the 8100 once, but it didn't seem to last as long or make a difference. I definitely had one counterfeit chain off Ebay. Even though the packaging was correct. (They may have switched boxes) It showed 0.5% wear in just a few weeks. The hollow pin kind of scares me since I'm 6'3 220ish.
The hollow pins are what Shimano is trusting for their racers who are likely putting way more strain on the chain than you or I. But, looking at the data, the 6100 is not a bad way to go as long as you stay on top of changing it out!
If it hasnt been mentioned already, there was actually a scientific study done into 12speed chains. They didnt do deore vs slx vs xt vs xtr, they did a lot of different brands of 11 and 12s chains instead, but they did at least cover deore and xtr in the line up. The testing was done by Zero Friction Cycling AU, and in their tests, the xtr would always outlast the deore by 2-4x. Im not sure if their article is still up, as I remember they took it down at one point in time, but there is scientific evidence out there, and has been for a while, that the xtr chains do indeed outlast the price difference compared to deore. Not to mention the coating in the xtr chains is better resistant to corrosion, ive had deore and xt chains get surface rust within a month of riding, but xtr chains stay shiny and silver for the whole season.
Came here cos I just got in from my Ebike ride and my deore chain is at 0.75 stretch. It’s been on for 2 months. 😢 looks like Deore might be a false economy as I really don’t fancy spending £200 on a whole drivetrain again like I already did last year and 2 months from a chain is a bit shit even if they’re cheap.
Yeah, I ran the chain too long without checking it so when I put a new chain on, it just wouldn’t ride properly so I put the old one back on and ran it into the ground until the winter was over. By the time I swapped it out, the cogs were almost round and the chain was practically dragging on the floor! Swapped it out in spring and rotated a couple of chains for a while until choosing to just check it properly and regularly. I can be a bit lazy and run a dirty drivetrain on occasion, but they usually get chain scrubbed, then ultrasonic cleaned, then GT85’d to stop corrosion and then lubed. I’ve just ordered an XTR so I’ll be curious to see the difference. I’d been running KMC chains before and thought they were pretty good, but my bike mechanic recommended sticking with Shimano chains. 🤷♂️ If XTR doesn’t last, I’ll go back and try KMC again.
Ahh, I understand the need to replace the drivetrain now. I’ve had people comment that the KMC chains are good too. My bike came with a KMC, but I switched to Shimano when I was having some shifting issues just as a troubleshooting measure. The reason your bike mechanic recommended Shimano is probably because the chain profile has the HyperGlide+ technology so it works really well with the Shimano HG+ cassettes. There are inner and outer bevels on the HG+ chains that keep the chain on the chainring and also allow smoother shifting when used with the HG+ cassette. That’s the reason I stick with Shimano chains as well.
There is no doubt in my military mind that the XTR chain that is fully SIL Coated is by far the most superior low friction, best shifting chain on the market. How do I know? First, I take care of my chains and I lube them one link at a time at least every 200 miles. I back pedal for a minute or two, walk away for an hour or two and then backpedal again with a clean rag pressed into the chain as it rotates while soaking up excess chain lube AKA money down the drain. Oh well. I get 4000 to 5000 miles per chain. I keep my cassette chainrings and derailleur cogs clean. It's easy if you do it regularly, kind of like keeping your rifle clean. If you are a slob you will die like a slob. But I digress. Right before the pandemic XTR full coated 11spd chains were selling for mid thirty $. I bought three. At the time I was riding a Ribble Gravel bike with GRX 800 groupset. After installing the XTR on a bike that anyone would have sworn should have at least had the cassette changed as well, the difference as was stunning. It was like riding your first girlfriend instead of your old dried up wife (I'm talking about my rifle). The bottom line. If you think a rather delicate piece of equipment owes you jack shit while you abuse it, ignore it, and curse at it for not shifting smoothly anymore like the day it was new then you deserve what you get. You are probably the same fools that let politicians lead them around expecting a different outcome every time they lie to you.
So, the only data I could find was for chains tested on e-bikes and I really only used it for a relative comparison on longevity. I’d really like to get some real world testing on all of the chains, but I just don’t ride enough to make it timely. I’d need to make an automated test rig and just let it run 24/7 with sporadic shifts and simulated dirt/rain/mud/etc. maybe some day!
Slx cassette and chain, 1200km on emtb, still.works,.but needs to be changed. I wouod at least double the miles.for a regular.bike. Next set will be Deore cassette and.xt or xtr chain, after looking for differences between them. And the overall price is belorlw xt/xt. And they should last better.
Generally I replace a chain when I can push the park fixed chain guage ( the longer one) at 0.75% and catch it before it freely drops in at 0.75%. Once it freely drops in at 0.75% the wear starts becoming significant an is exponential from there. That's from many years of experience using that guage. Don't think the guage is super accurate , but it is precise and gives repeatable results. So once it freely drops in at 0.50% and can't be pushed in at 0.75% just monitor closely until it can be pushed in a 0.75. . Then replace with the chain that you bought a while ago and have prepared to your liking so it's on hand when needed. This usually works well and the drive train will last a long time. Eventually the most heavily favord small cog will be the one that starts skipping first. Recycling and rebuilding used cassettes for used bikes and my own a good 17 tooth cog is the most elusive to find it doesn't seem to mater much what kind of bike it came off either.
If you all have mileage numbers you’ve hit before that 0.5% stretch, let me know! I’d love to collect some data!
i have already over 5000km with the XTR chain and waxing... and i am still only below the half way point of the recommended max wear value...
@@MFR03 that’s awesome! The testing data I had was not using wax and was on an EBike so I’d expect to get a lot more out of a standard bike.
Only digital vernier calipers with a "round bearing" shoulder on each inward facing lip give accurate wear values . Wear is hard to measure accurately no matter what method you use , unfortunately .
@@MFR03I was a strong "grinder" of gears on mountain bikes in the mid 1990's . Chains lasted about 1,500 kilometres on average .
That makes me feel less bad. My chain has hit 0.5 (deore) after about 200k but this is winter in England and Scotland. Very muddy, lots of grit, but I lube and wash my chain and cassette regularly. Seeing with that experiment which is not grinding with clay and sand in it reaches 400k, that doesn't make me feel my performance is too bad
A wise man changes his mind, thanks for the video!
I know it’s one person perspective: I’ve used deore, SLX and XT 12s chains on the same bike for the last 5 years, I could only get 6-700km out of deore and slx chains, but I get over 2000km on XT. Same transmission, same weather, same rider weight, pretty much. I also started using muc-off dry lube, dry brushing the chain after each ride and applying new lube, washing it once a month (I mostly ride in dry climate) and this seems to lengthen the chain lifespan. Where I live, XTR chains are double the price of XT, while XT is only a fraction more expensive than deore, so I don’t think I’ll try one any time soon. I’ve got a full SLX drivetrain, but derailleur pulleys, 10-45 cassette, and chain: these crucial components are in fact XT. And that’s where XT matters for real.
my XT chains would have surface rust on the sides of the outer links in a couple of days even if i don't ride in the rain.
I think one thing you should also specifically highlight is this: SLX-tier and above chains are exactly the same chains Shimano uses for their road bike ecosystem: namely SLX=105, XT=Ultegra and XTR=Dura-Ace. This goes to show how very efficient XTR chain is in transmitting power when pedalling since it is also the chain used by pro roadies sponsored by Shimano.
This is funny. They cheaped out on 12 speed chains compared to 11 speed… the only difference between the XT and XTR 11 speed were the hollow pins. If you ride in shit conditions, the XTR 12 speed is definitely the best one. The “brown” finish rusts quickly, the “gray” is also low grade. The “sil-Tec” is bombproof. How do I know? 4 years of Canadian winter commuting. Thanks for the video.
Fellow year-round winter commuter here.
Just curious if you've ever used KMC's "Eco Proteq" chains? They made them up to 11 speed and were supposedly extra rustproof too
@@DennisRosloniec did not try those no
so are you saying the M7100 or SLX that has sil-tec on the roller link plate is the best chain against rust, i would like to know cause the surface rust on the XT chain is driving me crazy, and i'm not even riding in the rain.
Thanks for the Video, I'm really shocked.
Do these 12s chains wear out that fast?
Some decades ago I was grinding a lot of kilometers on roadbikes and was racing too.
I remember these 8 and 9 speed Campagnolo chains lasting somewhere around 5000km!
Same here with my old 7 speed Shimano... maintenance has become a real PITA at many levels on modern bikes!
I just threw my first HG901 on my 11 speed, I think Ive always used the HG701, noticably smoother and quiter chain so far in my first few days, weight is NOT noticable as its only about 20g
Ive used XTR, Ive used Deore chains. And kept close track of mileage, both lasted exactly the same, one has hollow pins.
Pro tip in conclusion: just buy a Deore
... Aaahhhh ... I respectfully disagree. I pedal exclusively (3X10's) ... I will not ride a 11 or 12 speed ... it is called "CROSS CHAINING !!!" and causes higher maintenance costs and more frequent visits to the bike shop. Oh, I get approximently 9-10k miles/ chain ... maybe more as I am now experimenting w/ "hot waxings" now ....
😅 who rides a 3 x MTB anymore? You must mean a road bike. Otherwise you’re an idiot
i wander how much this result gets skewed when using a decent drip on wax or better yet immersive waxing. will the differences in longevity become less or more. thats what i wanna see.
Great videos, hold my interests so I sub'd. Gonna watch 'wm all. Keep up the great content, we're watching👍
@@ReneGingras-yc6ly thanks! It’s been a busy summer but I’m starting to get back into the research needed for some more videos!
@@Bikes-with-Ben I'm only saving your videos for future knowledge of how to fix things, your right in what you say and that shows. Very good job
Great overview, last week I put on a new XT chain and literally broke the plates three times in a few days, most likely a copy. Will give XTR a go from reputable dealer! cheers
These mileage numbers seem extraordinarily low. Either that test protocol is flawed or 12 speed is simply unsustainable. If those numbers are right, there are a lot of people who might get through half a dozen to a dozen chains a year ... that's just insane.
So, the test where I got the data did it using an E-Bike and I'm not sure under what conditions. For me the numbers were more for relative comparisons between each chain. I cannot find any good data on MTB chain life for these, unfortunately.
Your video summary statement has spelling and grammar errors . Please fix this , thankyou . If you install your chain at home with proper equipment , the costs are the same in practice . KMC DLC coated chains are the most durable overall .
The best chain i've ever had was the shimano yumeya ! (pretty to look at too😊) forking expensive though..
This has been a great series. I am going to check my chain RIGHT NOW! Thank you!
Check your chain more😅
800km on XT 8100 chain?? :o Maybe on dry, non-lubed, not taken care of. I take care of mine, it's already on 2,103.1 km and still waaay to go to 0,5% wear. I use garmin connect to track the mileage and PARK TOOL CC-3.2 to check the stretch.
I've been using the XT chain since last year. Been loving the shifting performance but I hate the fact that it's not very resilient against rust so I went back from using wet lube instead of chain wax lube. I've been trying to justify getting the XTR chain once my current XT chain wears out and I'm glad you uploaded this. I guess I now have two XTR components that I wouldn't mind getting, the calipers and the chain. 😂
these XT chains are horrible against rust.
@@bikingchupei2447 I agree. It developed rust just a week after installing it on my bike. Meanwhile, YBN chains I used in the past took about a year before I saw specs of rust on the links
@@Doc_Raphy yeah, and for some reason only the outer links are rusting, did they cheap out on material.
@@bikingchupei2447 same sentiments. Although at least the inner links don't rust.
Love that you are using metric units!
KTM chains are far superior to any Schram or Shimano chain. Get the gold nitrate coated version and you’ll be very very happy.
6:38 That can’t be right. I ride that exact distance weekly and in 5k miles my slx chain hasn’t hit the 0.5% wear mark yet.
@@hahagager I agree, those numbers seem to be heavily skewed low. They were the only results I could find that had comparisons with each chain and they were tested using an e-bike in some bad conditions.
@@Bikes-with-Ben ya I wax my chain and ride on clean trails and roads too so my chain should be lasting that long
That’s good data to have, thanks for letting me know!
Clean your chain, lube it when it gets noisy only. Lube attracts grit, grit destroys your rollers... you get chain wear.
Zero Friction Cycles has published a LOT of data on the life span of these chains. Bring your statistician brain because 🤯 it's a lot of information
I will check them out! I saw a few videos of theirs and their intro caught my eye because I was thinking about building a chain test system and they show one in their intro for about 3 seconds. I couldn't find any other videos though showing that off and when I saw their site I thought it was just a site used to sell their wax so I didn't dig in as far as a I apparently should have. Thanks!
According to these figures, the chain from my cheap commuting bike should be changed at least once a month... 😂😂😂
However, I think I've had this one since summer 2022!
This may be a great situation to do a collab with zero friction cycling. They seem pretty knowledgeable in terms of chain wair and friction
Those numbers sound ridiculously low. I run a Shimano 105 chain for now about 10'000km - always waxed and therefore clean. Can't imagine to go through an original Shimano chain in less than 2'500km. Sounds like counterfeit products to me.
The Shimano 105 is 11 speeds, maybe not the same 12 speeds chains described in this test? The XTZ is apparently both 11 and 12 speeds, though...
Also if you can wax it means not too much rain, so not the average use.
@@DR_1_1 You should look into the data: Zero friction cycling tested chains and 12 speed were more durable than 11 speed ones.
The general trick for longevity is to keep your drivetrain clean. Why shouldn't wax work in a humid environment? Here in middle/northern Europe we have usually pretty rainy summers. If it rained it you should just let your chain dry, clean it (baby wipes work pretty well for a short cleanup until you put your chain in petrol/methylated spirits/... for a thorough clean) and then rewax it, e.g. you can use a wax based drip on product for that purpose. And if it's dry the waxed chain lasts 300-500km until it needs rewaxing in my experience.
But you can continue to swap out your chain every week while I just check it and rewax it if you tend to believe that BS about 300km of lifetime.
I’ve been thinking about this after changing my original Deore chain last month. Got about 500 miles out of it before it was shifting poorly and stretched past .5. Going to try a more thorough lube/clean routine with the new one and see if that helps at all. If not I might make the jump to XTR… Looking forward to the rest of this series!
Unfortunately looks like you dont considerate the strength of the chain, with the hallow pins is it the chain weaker?
On our local, XTR is 50 usd, Deore is 19 usd, and only 12 usd if factory supply without package. I can change the chain by myself.
In a Dutch bike magazine they tested sram and Shimano in a test lab. Overall very little difference between Shimano chains, cassettes, chainrings.. overall better compared to sram with exception of top of the line sram. Which was horribly expensive.
Got an xt chain for less than 20$ with no box. It came in plain Plastic ziplock. Pre lubed with sticky oil. Looks legit.. havent used it yet.
Aliexpress edition? Make sure it's genuine.
Anrancee bike store from our local online selling platform here in the Philippines. They have many good reviews and can easily be returned if proven fake. Maybe they get them by bulk and have Sale prices sometimes. Fortunately shimano quality can be very good most of the time provided they are legit items.@@krisqz
its not prelubed, this is oil to prevent from corroding not to ride on, degrease and lube my dude
ah yes thank you for the reminder..its from a nrancee bike shop from our local online selling platform here in the Philippines ..easily returnable if proven fake. they must be in bulk and have sale sometimes. they say xt chain rust faster@@szolekxxx
@@szolekxxx never did that. I always rode pre-lubed for the first 300km of new chain. It was always super quiet. Hell, Shimano even says your chain will never ever be lubed like that again because they are pre-lubing each part seperatley before putting it all together. It is indeed sticky, though.
Confused on typical chains said to last at 2k-3k miles to the best chain here lasting maybe 500.
I switched to KMC which seem much better at price points.
Which one, they also have at least 3 series, R, ER, SL Ti...
@@DR_1_1 x
I fuck up my chain on rocks faster than I wear em out, so the cheaper chain is just fine for me. 🤪
In my experience, the xtr also has a far better smoothness to its shifting…
I switched over to road and gravel bikes a few years back. I only use the the CN-HG901 XTR/DuraAce chains on our entire fleet. The chain is changed at exactly 1000 miles on every bike. Never an issue. Not sure though how that translates into MTB miles since I’ve been out of the realm for far too long.
Awesome shirt! ;) Yesterday was closing day for the season at Ray's. Sad face!
At this rate I should be getting a new chain every month..
Nice video! Can’t wait for the brakes test. As of right now I really think deore 4 pot is best for the buck
I need to order some spare chains right now, If I didn't watch this video I would have ordered 2 SLX-s and an XT. Would have been a Bad choice
Noup, KMC is cheaper and much better
A brake comparison will be challenging. There is a lot of subjectivity involved. I’ve used SLX & XT and have my own opinion. It will be interesting to watch your video when it comes out.
These videos are great, thank you. Can you do one of these comparing Shimano breaks, rotors and pads? As a big guy who rides e-mtb, brakes are still an unknown for me. Thanks.
@@DirtRoadRemedy I’ve been doing the research for brakes already and that’ll be my next comparison video!
I think there’s a great argument for a Deore chain + switching to chain wax. The initial cleaning and waxing is a serious pain though.
Deore/SLX for training, XTR for race day, hot dip wax for both.
The cleaning process tends to damage the chain, since the protective lubricant is stripped and the metal is free to soak up broken down hydrogen (from solvents breaking apart bonds) and whatever, becoming brittle and prone to cracking. Google "multiple cracks on fresh bike chain", in which people are boggled by chains self-destructing despite "meticulous care" (using degreaser).
@@VaraxisLooks like that's mainly an issue with water based degreasers, mineral spirits and IPA shouldn't cause hydrogen embrittlement. Silka has a page dedicated to the problem, interesting stuff.
@@tedwingate gasoline, white spirit?
I don't know about my usage as i am already at 3000km mark and my deore chain is still good said by the mechanic.
Maybe I need to ask a different shop
The chain checker tool is super cheap if you want to check yourself. It’s super dependent on your riding style and conditions. Also, these numbers were on an E-bike so they’re not necessarily accurate to typical pedal riding. 3000km is wild though!
Xtr chain 6000km minimum to 0.5
Only 250 miles on a chain is insane.
XTR holes are great space to hold mud, dirt and dust inside. But if you have an unused teethbrush and lot of spare time, you will love XTR.
Ehh, just let em fill with mud, that’ll give you that extra 10g of weight savings back 😂
Lol I looked inside the hollow pins on my hardtail and gravel bikes. Doesn’t seem to have any caked in mud?
Use KMC x12.3 chains . They are worth a look . Otherwise Connex Wippermann 12SO .
@@Bikes-with-Ben I bet that you cannot fill them with 10g of mud or dirt. They are less dense than metal, so propably even a muddy XTR chain will be lighter than the others
@@jurekgadzinowski2895 yea, may be amazing 3g savings.
I'm done with any shimano chains. They rust and tarnish so quickly.
I switched to kmc x series chains either el or sl on my bike over shimano
i can't believe how easily my 12 speed XT chains rust in just a couple of days, never had this happen to me when i was riding 11 speed with kmc or 11 speed shimano chains.
XTR lasts at least 2x XT and 3X SLX for me on an E bike to 0.5 stretch. I learned thru experience XTR is best bang for the buck
Same thing for XX1 chains. I'm a bit heavier so my chains don't last as long as I see online, but good maintenance makes them last a long time. Also they look nice and I've found them on sale a bunch of times.
If mileage and value is the main concern. Linkglide 10 speed is the clear winner.
I’ve heard good things! This series I’m doing is on all 12 speed stuff though so I didn’t cover the Linkglide.
Thanks.... we need same on road bike chains... how come 11 speed chains are more expensive.
XTR is for both 11 and 12 speeds, how come the other models are not that way?
Can you do a Shimano brakes comparison? Would it be GREAT!
1)brake lever and caliper (would it be great if you consider the 4 pistons ones)
they say you could buy an SLX and have the freestroke adjust by replacing a screw and basically have the XT
2)then rotors comparison
3)maybe pads comparison, material, fins exc
*)extra, the hose that is different between the lineup
Thank you
That’s in the pipeline, I hope to get to those in just a few videos from now. Make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss it!
@@Bikes-with-Ben Done
THANK YOU SO MUCH!
Is that a T8 ? 😍
well that was an angry click
Edit:
and bro was it justified. you are basing your math on what somebody else found in their little experiment. thats so lame. broscience at its best, get out of here.
@@SiegwardZwiebelbrudi I mention in the video how little data there is for this and ask in the comments for people to provide mileage numbers from their own experience. If you’ve got more data for me to reference, I’ll be all ears!
@@Bikes-with-Ben The video has no point though, just don't produce content if you don't have reliable data.
Tbf, since i am waxing my chains, coatings are contraproductive anyway and i get my mileage out of them by riding chains in parallel, so this is not a topic i did a lot of research either, but man is there a lot of broscience for wax.
Imagine how annoyed people wil be, when they realize that the numbers you used don't translate to their usecase. the data is from ebikes after all and nobody knows how well maintained the drivetrain was etc.
i understand that the topic is interesting and getting your own data on this is unachieveable, but imo this is not the way to do it.
I'm usually OCD about having matching drivetrain components, but my last SLX chain rusted so fast! SUMC or YBN chains stay looking good for way longer.
I haven't had an issue with the rust, but i tend to ride in drier conditions. Also, I don't know how big of an effect it makes on shifting, but to get the truest benefits of Shimano's HyperGlide+ you need their chain along with the cassette. Now, that being said, it can't be that big of a difference maker or you wouldn't see as many bigger companies putting KMC chains on an otherwise Shimano drivetrain.
You should take care of your gear if you are getting rust. I ride Shimano 12 speed chains on my Fat Bike in winter snow so they are wet all the time. I dry my complete drivetrain after every ride and use a water dispersant like WD40 and then wet lube. No issues with rust ever. Like I said take care of your stuff
@deanemberley2333 if I had to do all that after every ride, I’d never ride again. Mine gets the good ole air dry on the drive home and that’s about it. Lubed when I remember to and my memory is crap. I haven’t had issues with rust and I’m not saying you shouldn’t take care of your stuff, but if there’s a chain out there that doesn’t rust in the conditions I put it through then I’ll be more likely to go with that chain.
That mileage seems really low. I’ve probably got 1500 miles on a cheap KMC chain and it is still within the stretch tolerances. Just measuring it with a ruler though so not super precise. Great video, love the detailed info!
thanks for warning against 12 speed chains
This is the same XTR chain for 11 speeds though... are the other chains compatible with 11 speeds any wider and durable?
@@DR_1_1may be 7-9 speed chains are the go to
don't know about shimano 12 speed, my gravel bike runs a hodge podge of sram eagle stuff. i noticed on strava that it's done 800miles since i built it
when i made it i used a slightly used 46t AB oval chainring, a used but good SX cassette and a new NX chain.
it's got modded sram APEX road levers with a gx rear mech, both have ratio parts to allow the shifters to do 12 speed and work with the mech.
the cassette looks no more worn then when i put the nx chain on it 800miles before. i think because of the 46t chainring (the ring i use for commuting to work) keeps me out of the small cogs unless i'm doing 30mph. slapped a GX chain on it to replace it.
Shimano XTR 12 speed chain is so good, that Shimano decided to use it in road bike 12s group set.
XTR 58$?! I didn't knew that. It's cheaper than what I pay for my AliExpress special 12s sumc dlc slr chains ... I clean them up with gasoline and alcohol then I wax them every 100/200km since 2022 I haven't had to switch any chains on my bikes...
(About 1800km on the roadbike and 1200km on the most used mtb)
Nice job! Super informative discussion, Thank you! KC CA USA
Just looking at the tracker for my trail/enduro bike. XTR 864km, XT 1383km & current XT 1275km (and still going). Replacing between 0,5 & 0,75. Still on the first XTR cassette.
If you run multiple chains and change after every wet ride or after 100k/6hours or more, deore and slx last much longer. I ride for the moment one deore one xt one xtr on the same bike. Xtr shortest(less wear). (Not science: offroad every ride is differen)tBut XTR almost 3 times the price of deore. Xt and deore no diffrence in rusting when not teraeted adter wet ride. Xtr less prone to rusting. Every chain around 55 hours of riding(hours of riding better reference point than km), I keep both in ecxels.. All far from wearing point. I use hotwax. Next time four deores. With deores you have to be more careful while the wear with all chains is not linear but faster the more you approach the wearing point(base on 11speed chains wear data).
Thank you for this video, these info are exactly what I need. I m going to change the chain and your infos are all I need to know about diferences among the chains :)
SO TRUE, since i first installed it last year with my full XTR M9100 groupset it still didn't take the slightest wear, more than 1000 kilometers of ride, but i do xc
They didn' t work well form me; I can't reccomend any Shimano chain
Who replaces chains at 0.5mm of growth? 😂
id like to see you cover some aftermarket chains like the KMC chains
6:04 main wear is on pin and then on inner plate that slides on pin and everything else is not important
I believe it was on GCN where one of the pro team mechanics said if there's something you shouldn't cheap out on it should be the chain. Side note: if you wax your cn-9100 make sure you poke the wax out of the holes. A wire hanger works pretty good.
Light numbers on a light background is hard to see
I have to get in bike Chain Business, its worth gold😊
Can't wait to see your next video. Finally someone "real things" :P
XO rocks for me. Great value.
7 cents for just the chain? cycling sucks now. i rode 200k km from 5600 dollars with full ultegra. that's 2.8 cents for everything, tyres, chain, *bikes* included. i'm going to buy a dutch bike.
that's an old 10 speed number by the way (mostly)
You should review linkglide vs hyperglide
Instant improvement since last video, keep it up!
Thanks for the info, it really did answer to me why should I spend TWICE the price on supposedly The Same Chain But Lighter!
i drive whit one chaine by 27 gears shimano XT the last one betwin 18000km-20000km i cleaned every time the chain
What do you mean?
love the exploring and 'not knowing' of this vid.
I do food delivery by e bike ( bbshd - mid drive), average 1000 miles a month. Probably changing chain and cassette every 6 months. I very specifically don't bang on the gears, and only take off in lower gears. For me the tell-tell sign of chain stretch is when the little derailleur cogs start skipping. At that point I just change chain and cassette, unless cassette is significantly newer than chain.
I used to chew through cassettes but have figured out how to manage that.
To me, those stretch numbers seem way too low but I guess I don't measure that regularly. I def know when my drivetrain is golden and when it is garbage. It kinda blows my mind if ppl are changing their chain every 200km. But I am always still learning about all the nuances of bike world. To me function is the only real rule.
I really wish I had some more concrete data on all of this. I only have one guys testing on one bike, unfortunately. This is making me want to build my own automated test rig and blow through some chains on a 24/7 run time to see what results we can get. Obviously wear will be super dependent on type of riding, conditions, rider, etc. But if we could setup a consistent, repeatable test we could at least gather some decent information about all this. I’m suprised Shimano doesn’t mention anything about expected life. Obviously if you ride straight, never shifting in perfect weather your chain will last forever. And if you ride in sand, uphill in a thunderstorm it’ll be worse. A good test rig may have to be in my future to settle all this unknown.
Great video. I have one question for which we don't have an answer: With the better wear capability of the XTR chain, will it cause more general wear on the chain ring and cassette? I don't know. Just a consideration.
A worn chain is what causes pre-mature damage to a cassette or chainring. Having a chain that wears out slower will be better on your other gear. Any chain that is within spec of stretch won’t do damage to your other components.
I had 2 new shimano chains snap on me. I switched to KMC and never looked back
KMC? Which one, they also have at least 4 series, R, black & silver, ER, SL Ti...
Apologies, KMC. Just the "X" line@@DR_1_1
Do they work with HG+?
@@Leo-gt1bx The KMC website should be able to answer this question
I've used the 6100 chains mostly. I tried the 8100 once, but it didn't seem to last as long or make a difference. I definitely had one counterfeit chain off Ebay. Even though the packaging was correct. (They may have switched boxes) It showed 0.5% wear in just a few weeks.
The hollow pin kind of scares me since I'm 6'3 220ish.
The hollow pins are what Shimano is trusting for their racers who are likely putting way more strain on the chain than you or I. But, looking at the data, the 6100 is not a bad way to go as long as you stay on top of changing it out!
Pretty spicy things coming on your channel, cuddles for you!
So these chain life stats are based on an ebike? Can we expect maybe double the life on "acoustic bikes"?
😂 I’d love to find out! I’d like to have my own test rig here for all of that, but I haven’t gotten around to making one yet.
there are far too many factors that go into chain wear that any lab difference in chain wear is largely moot.
That’s fair! My main question is how they compare to each other which is why I liked EMTBVideos method of making half and half chains to test.
Thanks for sharing
Nice video bro 👍, I'm following from the beginning and I'm so excited to see that final bike build
If it hasnt been mentioned already, there was actually a scientific study done into 12speed chains. They didnt do deore vs slx vs xt vs xtr, they did a lot of different brands of 11 and 12s chains instead, but they did at least cover deore and xtr in the line up. The testing was done by Zero Friction Cycling AU, and in their tests, the xtr would always outlast the deore by 2-4x. Im not sure if their article is still up, as I remember they took it down at one point in time, but there is scientific evidence out there, and has been for a while, that the xtr chains do indeed outlast the price difference compared to deore.
Not to mention the coating in the xtr chains is better resistant to corrosion, ive had deore and xt chains get surface rust within a month of riding, but xtr chains stay shiny and silver for the whole season.
11s linkglide❤
Great Video!!
Got an slx chain for 20... but xtr looks good
Can’t beat that! All of the chains perform the exact same, so if you can get any one of them for a better $/mi then go for it!
Nice shirt! Was there a few weeks ago!
Came here cos I just got in from my Ebike ride and my deore chain is at 0.75 stretch. It’s been on for 2 months. 😢 looks like Deore might be a false economy as I really don’t fancy spending £200 on a whole drivetrain again like I already did last year and 2 months from a chain is a bit shit even if they’re cheap.
You can use any 12spd chain with your drive train. No need to swap the whole thing out! On a whole, the Deore drivetrain is a great set for the money.
Yeah, I ran the chain too long without checking it so when I put a new chain on, it just wouldn’t ride properly so I put the old one back on and ran it into the ground until the winter was over. By the time I swapped it out, the cogs were almost round and the chain was practically dragging on the floor!
Swapped it out in spring and rotated a couple of chains for a while until choosing to just check it properly and regularly.
I can be a bit lazy and run a dirty drivetrain on occasion, but they usually get chain scrubbed, then ultrasonic cleaned, then GT85’d to stop corrosion and then lubed.
I’ve just ordered an XTR so I’ll be curious to see the difference. I’d been running KMC chains before and thought they were pretty good, but my bike mechanic recommended sticking with Shimano chains. 🤷♂️ If XTR doesn’t last, I’ll go back and try KMC again.
Ahh, I understand the need to replace the drivetrain now. I’ve had people comment that the KMC chains are good too. My bike came with a KMC, but I switched to Shimano when I was having some shifting issues just as a troubleshooting measure. The reason your bike mechanic recommended Shimano is probably because the chain profile has the HyperGlide+ technology so it works really well with the Shimano HG+ cassettes. There are inner and outer bevels on the HG+ chains that keep the chain on the chainring and also allow smoother shifting when used with the HG+ cassette. That’s the reason I stick with Shimano chains as well.
Yes that makes a lot of sense regarding Shimano chains. I’m looking forward to seeing how the XTR performs in comparison.
Just totalled up the mileage I got on the Deore chain since I fitted it - 116 miles and it’s at 0.75! WTH!
I have bought 4$ chains that were better than shimano
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There is no doubt in my military mind that the XTR chain that is fully SIL Coated is by far the most superior low friction, best shifting chain on the market. How do I know? First, I take care of my chains and I lube them one link at a time at least every 200 miles. I back pedal for a minute or two, walk away for an hour or two and then backpedal again with a clean rag pressed into the chain as it rotates while soaking up excess chain lube AKA money down the drain. Oh well. I get 4000 to 5000 miles per chain.
I keep my cassette chainrings and derailleur cogs clean. It's easy if you do it regularly, kind of like keeping your rifle clean. If you are a slob you will die like a slob. But I digress.
Right before the pandemic XTR full coated 11spd chains were selling for mid thirty $. I bought three. At the time I was riding a Ribble Gravel bike with GRX 800 groupset.
After installing the XTR on a bike that anyone would have sworn should have at least had the cassette changed as well, the difference as was stunning. It was like riding your first girlfriend instead of your old dried up wife (I'm talking about my rifle).
The bottom line. If you think a rather delicate piece of equipment owes you jack shit while you abuse it, ignore it, and curse at it for not shifting smoothly anymore like the day it was new then you deserve what you get. You are probably the same fools that let politicians lead them around expecting a different outcome every time they lie to you.
I dont use Shimano chains. I have used KMC and lately I am using YBN.
Nice reviews.. I just bought xtr chain for 39 bucks
400km from one chain? what? it's a month of riding, 12 speed is a scam
So, the only data I could find was for chains tested on e-bikes and I really only used it for a relative comparison on longevity. I’d really like to get some real world testing on all of the chains, but I just don’t ride enough to make it timely. I’d need to make an automated test rig and just let it run 24/7 with sporadic shifts and simulated dirt/rain/mud/etc. maybe some day!
Slx cassette and chain, 1200km on emtb, still.works,.but needs to be changed. I wouod at least double the miles.for a regular.bike. Next set will be Deore cassette and.xt or xtr chain, after looking for differences between them. And the overall price is belorlw xt/xt. And they should last better.
Generally I replace a chain when I can push the park fixed chain guage ( the longer one) at 0.75% and catch it before it freely drops in at 0.75%. Once it freely drops in at 0.75% the wear starts becoming significant an is exponential from there. That's from many years of experience using that guage. Don't think the guage is super accurate , but it is precise and gives repeatable results. So once it freely drops in at 0.50% and can't be pushed in at 0.75% just monitor closely until it can be pushed in a 0.75. . Then replace with the chain that you bought a while ago and have prepared to your liking so it's on hand when needed. This usually works well and the drive train will last a long time. Eventually the most heavily favord small cog will be the one that starts skipping first. Recycling and rebuilding used cassettes for used bikes and my own a good 17 tooth cog is the most elusive to find it doesn't seem to mater much what kind of bike it came off either.