In Defense of Winter... Wings of Fire Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 21 мар 2024
- Number 1 Winter Apologist right here... All charges are true.
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OH MY GOSH TYSM 😭 WINTER IS SUCH A MISUNDERSTOOD CHARACTER AND THE WAY THE FANDOM PORTRAYS HIM IS SO SHALLOW.
Oh em gee it’s you from that server
Fr! It's always either "raging psycho" or "watch Qibli borderline SH him"
YEAHHH I LOVE HIM TOO
I wonder if Winter asked Sky to teach him how to speak scavenger.
I would love this to be canon!!
Sky has the same age as Peril, and Peril is way older than Winter, shes even older than the Dod i think?
@@bl4me_me in the first book Clay wonders if maybe Peril was the Wings of Sky the prophecy is referring to, only to be shot down by Kestrel when she says Peril had hatched over a year before the brightest night.
If Sky did teach him maybe then Winter would search for his original scavenger Bandit and maybe a Reunion.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they both became fast friends. Sky is the type of friend that Winter needs and winter is the type of dragon who would be a very good friend to sky.
Honestly, couldn’t agree more on the fact that Qibli and Moon were not good friends to Winter near the end of Darkness of Dragons, especially with how they treated him with the Vase, helping his Icewing family, and keeping the truth of Darkstalker’s fate from him. The fact that they can call themselves Winter’s friend after that, let alone family, is honestly shocking.
Also as a Winterjou Friendship/ Found Family enjoyer , I don’t see Winter’s Darkness of Dragon epilogue as canon.
Yeah, I agree. The way Winter was treated in the end of Darkness Of Dragons kinda came off like Tui was trying to have her cake and eat it.
Same, I have a lot of headcanons for the whole ending to arc 2 just to fix it. It’s so out of character for not just winter, but moon and Qibli too. They wouldn’t have done that to winter
I refuse to believe that Winter called Qibli his best friend after what he said to him.
I think another often overlooked problem with how Tui wrote Winter after book 7 was the way he acted in many of the smaller scenes. When hes with the group, he often speaks the least, and when he does speak, he's almost always just kinda mean or angry for no real reason. Even though we see him warm up to others in book 7, because he never really continues that trend after the book in the smaller scenes, it feels like he just lost his development.
This is especially true in DoD, he kinda just is mildly condescending and tsundere with Qibli for no real reason. Despite evidence in book 7 of Winter openly warming up to Qibli without needing to act all "It's not that I like you or anything, baka!" It's like Tui went all in on the dumb, cooky jokester annoys uptight straight man trope completely disregarding his growth in the earlier books, *and* limiting the growth potential for Qibli himself. It'd be fine if there were other moments of Winter showing his softer side, but there is literally none of that after book 7 ends, except with scavengers because weird quirks are all that defines a character to Tui apparently.
The regression stuff I agree since its caveat by the fact the narrative pile-drives Winter solely because Tui wanted to smash Qibli and Moon together and for *some* reason felt she had to demonize Winter to do it. But it was also the perfect opportunity for Winter to fully embrace his development. But again, the way the narrative turns against Winter is entirely explained by the god awful love triangle.
The epilogue is just... yeah its all kinds of awful. It feels so incredibly forced and kinda reduces Winter's character to scavenger obsessed weirdo. He's basically alone in the woods with complete strangers, no real home or family to speak of anymore, with nothing to do except indulge in his obsession, front loaded with a whole load of trauma the narrative refuses to acknowledge, with "friends" that he doesn't get to even be with anymore, and who outright say they don't trust him (but its okay because the trust him to be loyal to them instead, and "be there when they need him") and deliberately deny Winter closure with Darkstalker because he might be upset about what happened. And SOMEHOW Tui tries to frame this as a "happy" ending. It's honestly insulting really.
It’s not a happy ending at all. His friends will all grow up and finish school, making new memories without him and somehow he’s suppose to be happy with that. HOW
I was reading an interview with Tui a while back (it was just before 14 came out I think), and in it she said the decision to pair Moon and Qibli came relatively late in the writing process; which reading book 10, yeah a lot of the romantic subplot felt like it was sorta tossed in and was procrastinating it's resolution for most of it. It also explains why the book's tone about Winter does a big 180 towards the end.
In the interview Tui said her goal was to create a triangle where any one of the pairs could get together and it would feel satisfying. Well I'm sorry to break it to you Tui, but you fumbled the ball pretty hard on that one; Moon and Winter barely have any chemistry in this book (they literally have half a scene where they enjoy each other's company before the vase incident happens), Moon and Qibli have potential but he spent most the book simping for her while there was not a lot of time spent developing their relationship before she practically throws herself at him, and Qibli's and Winter's back-and-forth is probably the best part of the book but you went and drove a wedge between them last minute.
Another item from the interview I want to talk about was Tui got asked about "Winter's character regression" (exact words used by the interviewer) and Tui gave a really vague "We all want our favorite characters to go through upwards progression, but real life doesn't always work out like that. I think the best thing for Winter right now is for him to take some time alone to figure himself out." Which to me comes across as "yeah I might've messed that up but I don't wanna admit it."
The final things I wanna share from this interview was Tui more or less admitted she often doesn't think about what she's gonna do with a book until she sits down to write it, and then usually she ends up letting it write itself. I think this is where the allegations of her getting tunnel vision comes from. She also added she'll often consult the fan wiki when she needs to remember something, and she doesn't really pay attention to the reviews of her books.
Anyway, sorry this rant went on for so long. In truth the interview was much bigger than just these points and I've been a little cherrypicky with them. I'd encourage you to read it for yourselves as it is quite broad and very informative;
www.deviantart.com/biohazardia/journal/Wings-of-Fire-News-at-Boskone-2020-831252663
@@pyronuke4768
Isn't paying attention to book reviews something authors shouldn't do?
I keep seeing that book reviews are for readers, not writers.
@@lk_3099 well, yes and no. I believe an author should never feel like they're being intimidated by their audience to change the story from their vision. However, a little bit of criticism taken into account is a healthy thing, otherwise any actual issues are not going to be resolved. The trick is being able to decern which criticisms are constructive and which are not. I bring this up because one of the more common complaints I hear about the series is that Tui had a problem with tunnel vision and it only got worse as the books continued.
In the interview Tui said she doesn't really go on social media and she doesn't pay attention to her books reviews. This, along with other answers she gave, to me speaks as Tui being a sensitive soul who deals with criticism by putting it out of mind out of sight.
WoF's overarching subtext is a good example of the pros and cons of what not listening to criticism can do. Tui created an inspiring vision all of her own which brought thousands of people together, but at the same time the gap between her good writing traits and her bad ones also became more and more noticeable.
Icewing main characters always seem to get done dirty
I truly wonder if Tui favors NightWings and hates IceWings lol. Like seriously NightWings have done all these horrid, disgusting actions against themselves and other tribes and get no narrative consequences meanwhile IceWings are kinda thrown into various horrible scenarios and get all sorts of awful reactions; no matter how they handle the situation at hand. Angry at NightWings for attempting to g*noc*de your tribe while following Darkstalker, a known manipulator/egomaniac character? It’s your fault. You follow the demands of someone trying to get ransom out of desperation to save a family member? It’s your fault. You try and separate yourself from people because you find yourself hurting them? You’re neglectful. You get angry because someone is invading the extremely intimate and private space that is your mind? You’re abusive.
I swear no matter how an IceWing character reacts to something, Tui always writes it off as them committing a heinous crime and it’s irritating/off-putting to read.
@@IJustAnimateThatsTheJist You know, that's actually not to outlandish of a theory. It would explain a few things.
Well, I think Snowfall got off on a better foot than most of Tui's other blizzard lizards, though I believe that's mostly due to how self-contained her POV book feels to the rest of Arc 3.
Then again, in book 10 Qibli seems weirdly nonchalant about an entire tribe getting g*noc*ded. There was an initial shock, and then he barely dewlls on it for the rest of the book, instead seemingly way more concerned that his friends (specifically Moon) might be in danger being so near to Darkstalker.
Really do...
@@IJustAnimateThatsTheJist don't forget about MudWings planning to wipe out IceWings too.
If I were Winter I wouldn't go back to the Jade Mountain Academy either. You already mention the bad memories it would invoke for him, the place where his sister tried to commit murder, where his dad died. But also it is where the dragons he thought were his friends, having already treated him as a villain just for being upset about genocide, made the decision to teleport him off to the place where he had been sentenced to death once already.
Honestly surprised he even tolerates speaking to them after that.
If not for the scavenger research thing he has set up with the Talons of Peace, I could have easily seen him trying to join the Pantala expedition and perhaps in the future settling down with... I'm thinking, a Hivewing.
Now I am imagine Winter/Cricket/Blue crackships. Oh that would be interesting to say the least
The epilouge just has an overall weird tone. "Yes we trust you, but not enough to tell you the truth. We want to be friends with you, but first you should apologize for how awful you've been to us. Oh, and by the way, it appears the rest of our friend group just doesn't have the time to come visit you face-to-face. But we're all still a found family though, right?"
It just comes off like Tui is trying to have her cake and eat it too.
You're right. Honestly... He seems to be right back in that abused "I deserve it" mindset he had with the Icewings and Hailstorm.
He traded one toxic family for another, it seems.
Winter is a very beautiful character and that fact really doesn't get around enough. The fandom as well as a few sections in the book (as you pointed out) really piss me off. He's not a violent dragon, he acts cold to protect himself. Anger is normal and yet his friends act like it's horrible if he gets mad over anything. Sad, really. There are still wonderful sections of him and his friends, at least. I am so so so greatful for you making this video to get word out! He's been a very fond character to me for YEARS, staying in the top of my favorite character list in all of the fandoms I love. He has so many layers to him and i'm so happy you dove into them. Thankyou for this video!
(Also, your art of him is lovely. He's so pretty!)
I still dont really understand why Winter was excluded so much from his Winglet.. it makes sense that he would not return to Jade Mountain, sure, or at least, not for a while. And that would make him more distant from them by default (and probably feeling left out)
But what happened? I feel like Moon and Qibli both cared about him a lot and Qibli honestly seemed to 'get' him more than any of the others, Moon included tbh. But he doesn't seem close with him at all after things go down and i can't figure out why. While Moon might be a mind reader, Qibli didnt just understand what his mindset might be, but also what he needed or what might be a good thing for a friend to do/say. (Even if at times Winter was exasperated by this).
While Moon was the one who broke down his stigma towards Nightwings, which alongside the events of his book, set him on a path to finally being able to deconstruct the beliefs and mindsets he has been programmed into by his culture and family, it was Qibli who truly connected him to their group. I don't think Winter would have been able to connect with everyone without him and their bond made him a better friend over time.
But almost all of this is nearly forgotten it feels like. And while it is very accurate to the experiences of folks leaving groups to be on their own to escape harmful systems/mindsets/etc etc to end up kind of lonely and unsure of how to go on, i really felt awful for Winter suddenly being left in a position without anyone really close to him. I always thought his friends would be that, you know?
And also, why exactly didnt they tell winter the whole deal with DS? I feel like sure, keep the particulars on the down low, fine, but couldn't they have at least told him they tricked him into eating something with a spell from his own scroll, that Foeslayer aided them, or that he was transformed away (not killed, but not still alive either). If you cant say "peacemaker" (which, fair ig) or even say 'into another dragon' then at least tell him "transformed" or something, give him a little more security that DS is really gone and that your friends trust you at least that much sheesh
Underrated comment; my only regret is that I have but one like to give.
For the last bit, probably because Tui knew after the whole Hailstorm thing, and given Winter's unyielding moral code, he would find it to be a reprehensible act.
He personally experienced the erasure of self that was being turned into another dragon.
I can't imagine he'd ever be okay with that happening to anyone else.
Winter's angry outburst about Darkstalker in DoD is probably what saved Qibli.
That's the thing that boils my blood: Qibli needed Winter to give him that wake-up call how Darkstalker's actions were inexcusable, and the books literally never bring it up, instead playing it off like Qibli had come to this revelation all on his own. Heck, later books even give Qibli the credit for defeating Darkstalker, even though he had literally nothing to do about Kinkajou's Strawberry Plan.
Also, I wonder if there's plans for a Qibli video on why he wasn't writen well in book 10: like he's too paranoid to be a big brain dragon, too distrusting of other dragons, even lacked an actual character arc for himself to confront. His flaws also aren't shown too much, they're almost an afterthought.
In my (personal) opinion, Winter is one of those dragons with a very hard outside but a very soft inside.
Also, your personality is not only shaped by your DNA, it is also shaped around the people (dragons, in Winter’s case) around you. Winter grew up with a disapproving father, and IceWings in general are kind of cold (no pun intended. Also, sorry Icewing fans). It’s not Winter’s fault, and he is shown with a good heart on multiple occassions. The fandom is very… urm… *protective* of Moon (to be fair Moon is one of my favourite characters too but let’s ignore that for the moment), and that scene in the first book where Winter threatens Moon, makes the fandom misunderstand his motives, which was to protect Bandit, because he thought Moon was going to eat him, which she also wasn’t
The Winter fan cope is so real for me, as I've had severe anger and socialization issues growing up.
I wish I could tell him that he deserves to be happy with himself.
I personally feel both Qibli and Winter were equally butchered narratively in book 10. How they ended up best friends after how they fought is beyond me.
Also, yeah, that part of the epilogue literally made my face hot with anger, Kinkajou is insufferable.
7:31 "icewing island?"
But otherwise YES winter was done dirty and didnt deserve it
I have no clue as to how winter thought he could defeat peril.
We... stan a confident king?
Я всегда буду Холода любить☺
Он персонаж настоящий, живой по настоящему💙
У него развитие есть!
I think Winter is a good character. He tries he's best but sometimes... Well, more offten then sometimes - it's not going as good as he want.
Imagine if there were more dragons that were put under a similar spell to hailstorm that probably wont be discovered since scarlet is dead and chameleon is missing.
Winter has got some good stuff with his character for sure, I think his problem is that in most people's eyes he is outshined by Qibli lol.
Also love your art, the lighting on this one is lovely ❤
This is probably a controversial take, but with Winters behavior about Nightwings comes from generations of BS told to him ( same can be applied to Snowfall), Moonwatcher is the reason he changed his bias, and I believe if he was handled better, more people would see how much of a likable dork he is. ( and I wholeheartedly believe WinterWatcher would have worked if he was written correctly) so yeah JUSTICE FOR WINTER
Exactly! Why do people expect him to be anything but what he was raised to be? Once he was taken out of that environment, he changed, showing he’s a good dragon at heart. Winterwatcher had the best storyline out of the love triangle, it’s my second favourite outcome for it (after qinter)
@@_.Sp.a.rk._ finally someone agrees with me, they did our boy Winter so dirty
@@_.Sp.a.rk._ Exactly, this comment you replied to is why seeing people say "Winter and Moon will end up like Arctic and Foeslayer" boils my blood.
I always wondered if Winter's story with Foeslayer would've changed, should we have gotten a Kinkajou book.
It seemed like Peril and her book were supposed to be swapped originally, with that section taking place in the Lost City of Night. I always figured in many ways, Foeslayer could've taken over in a lot of ways as Winter's mother figure. And a generally positive perspective on another route, in general.
Would've also gave more interactions between Winter and Kinkajou... Which would be great for me, because I'm a big Winterjou guy.
But, leaving that aside, I do genuinely find they have a lot of chemistry together as characters. Kinkajou grew up in a place without any bindings of rank or position, really. Where voicing your mind is expected, if anything, albeit not always rewarded.
Winter is the opposite. Reserved, restricted, and generally dictated by rank.
But, in contrast to Qibli who is similarily opposite to Winter, Kinkajou is more honest about it.
In general, she holds similar conviction to Winter, albeit more 'wild' for lack of a better word, when it comes to morality.
Winter is a character you just got to love even though he comes out cold he is really a nice and sweet dragon I mean look at his passion for scavengers.
Winter has to be my favorite character in this series. Well said! 👏
23:07 thank you for saying this. As someone who had to deal with it not once and called literally insane for that, it was really needed to hear
Winter is very interesting once you take the time to dissect his character. He's very multilayered under the surface. In arc 2 he is often at war with himself, second-guessing his actions and wondering if he's doing the right thing choosing between what he wants, what his family/tribe wants, and what's best for the greater good; but when the chips are down he often picks the latter. He also serves a role in the group as a voice of reason as he will tell things as they are without mincing words or dancing around the issue. He is very arrogant, hot-headed, and stubborn, but he's also very protective, passionate, and persistent.
(Also Winter's a bit of a tsundere, and lord knows I love me a good tsundere story.)
I think the issue comes down to the author's execution. It kinda felt like once Tui had finished his POV she didn't really know what to do with him and just kinda plopped him in whenever a scene needed some friction. Darkness of Dragons paints him in a decent light for the first half, but then does a 180 in the second half and deglamorizes him. While not necessarily out of character, it does come off as pretty contrived.
I agree,I didn't like how he treated moon but his family's and tribe is so nasty it made me like him❤❤❤❤❤
I agree with this video. Winter is my 5th favorite character- when i was reading and rereading WOF he wasn't really that bad imo- There where moments he did i don't agree with, he maybe shouldn't have been rude to Moon in book 6, but he got over that, like you said- the reason he yelled at Moon in book 10 was because of Darkstalker, she was defending him, i would be angry too if i heard someone say something good about a dragon killing my entire tribe. I also don't blame him for joining in the fight- He wouldn't want to see his whole family die without trying to help, Even if they where awful too him, he wouldn't want that. He definitely wouldn't want that for Hailstorm, i think its in character for him to want to fight with Hailstorm and defend him. His friends where not very good to him, he should have known about what happened to Darkstalker, his tribe was the most affected by him, he deserved to know.
If it was possible i would adopt Winter and siblings.
Watching this, I realised that Winter is actually…quite kind. I now like Winter:3
Winter is one of my favorite characters
I personally think Winter is probably one of the best characters in WOF
I'm not sure if I could say his character is the best, but I do think it's one of the most interesting to study.
Was Winter's character assassinated or regressed? Well, no, I don't really think so; but I can't say that Tui didn't fumble it either. His epilouge in Darkness of Dragons comes off as the author trying to have her cake and eat it. (Kinkajou is being an author's mouthpiece in this scene, and if you pay attention to the phrases being used she's effectively guilt-tripping him into accepting all the blame for his relationship with the winglet falling apart.) Plus, fixing his development off-screen between books is rather cheap writing.
I'm a little annoyed that Kinkajou didn't tell Winter who Peacemaker used to be. What was she afraid of? That Winter would kill the child of Hope/Foeslayer, a dragon that he rescued from an eternity of infinite stabbing deaths? Sheesh!
26 MINUTE 4RCANE ANALYSIS VIDEO YEEEEEEEEEEEY!
Yesss
i fw this video
Exept. For umber who immediately gets left out of everything
Yeah I didn't know he was and peril is two apparently I guess that's what I get for only reading the graphic novels
I can confirm Winter is a very misunderstood and underrated character
Honestly, if someone had just got Winter a therapist of some sorts most of the things seen as “bad” that he did wouldn’t have happened. That’s something that I’m kind of still confused about considering the way JMA was set up. Someone should’ve taken notes of the way Winter acted and given him help. I mean, Qibli is viewed as a dragon that can read his surroundings and gather info very easily on others without having any powers yet he appears to not even consider the fact that his clawmate might act the way he does because of poor treatment, something Qibli is very used to. It’s kinda stupid how all of his negative actions are just read by the dragons around him as him just being a jerk.
Sorry for the rant.
I am not a winter stan and i ship moonbli, but what is the jade winglet did to winter was wrong. I used to think winter was abusive but i got to say my opinion on him was wrong.I feel like the jade winglet did him very dirty and were a bit mean to him. He may not be my favorite but he is a very good character 😊
Welp, here we go again
Am I the only one you thinks Winter joining the Icewings in the battle was a good decision like I don,t see how defending your tribe ( which includes dragons like Lynx) form a genocidal sorcerer is a bad decision. It’s not like he was going to stay with them after the battle.
I think I’m on the wrong side of this situation.. I didn’t read wof for like a year because I hated winter so much I refused to read winter turning but after awhile i finally gave in ..
I feel the same way about Peril. She is a mass murderer, was happy to do it most of the time and never really faced any justice for what she did.
@@MahsaKaerra heh, I got a kick out of that statement.
Peril: spends YEARS brutally executing prisoners for her tyrannical queen.
Fans: "she's just misunderstood and so cute with Clay."
Winter: was a bit rude and broke a vase.
Fans: "he's so mean and toxic; he's lucky the others still even want to be friends with him!"
@@pyronuke4768 That's a good point, sounds incredibly hypocritical.
But I parcially blame it on the author's failure to focus on Winter's flaws not being his fault and his friends antagonizing his flaws too much.
WINTER IS THE BESTTTTTT. He gets too much hate and I just don't understand it? Quibli is the one who I felt had his character ruined.
Qibli was ruined? How? (I'm genuinely curious)
@@pyronuke4768 Idk, it's been a while since I've read the books, but I kinda almost felt like in his book he was a spectator almost? He wasn't there for a lot of the events that led up to Darkstalker until the 10th book (from what I remember), and so he almost kinda seemed to be sitting back and watching while everyone else finished their arcs (again, from what I remember). Almost like he was just there for comedic relief. I also feel like his backstory wasn't properly explored. Again, Idk, I just remember being immensely disappointed by his book, though part of that could have just been because I didn't like how they handled defeating Darkstalker.
@@ThatArtisticBookwormYT OK, I see where you're coming from. I don't think it ruined his character, but I do have a lot of issues with how that book was handled.
My biggest problem with Book 10 was how the rest of the Jade Winglet was handled by the narrative. There's been plenty of discussions how dirty it did Winter's rep, but Peril's barely in it having only three scenes counting the epilouge, Turtle doesn't really have enough to do and kinda gets replaced by Anemone anyway, Kinkajou's just sorta there until she pulls the deus ex machina strawberry out her pants, and Qibli's motivations kinda have him coming off like a simp; but I think Moon is done the worst -- she's obviously Tui's favorite and ends up being the catalyst for most of the second half's events, and making her the love interest makes it feel like she somehow has less agency while absolving her any consequences of her actions.
On top of that I feel like the Onyx subplot could probably have been dropped as it takes up half the book but barely connects with the Darkstalker plot at all. It almost feels like it's stalling for time.
Overall there were several moments in the book I did enjoy, but in the bigger picture the whole thing suffers from poor execution. That's why it feels disappointing imo.
@@pyronuke4768 Yeah, I agree with you! Again, I haven't read the main series books in 4-6 years, so I just remember hating Quibli's book so it made me associate Quibli with something I didn't like and therefore ruined his character for me. Darkstalker in general was handled poorly as a villain at the end of the arc and I much prefer his character in the Legends book, which I read about 2 years ago and liked a lot better than most of arc 2.
why am I the only one who cant come up with good ships?
Its... uhm... uhhhhhhh
Peril hater…. Bad.
I love winter, he’s my second favorite character in all of WoF 🫶🏾