You didn't mention about when the BMS balances the cells. Most BMS do a top balance so you need to charge to 100% . Personally I just go out and do a daily ride and when I get back charge the battery up to 100% knowing it will be top balanced in the last phase of the charging cycle. Any thing else is just to complicated.
I've been terrible at observing that rule but I've been fairly careful about charging at ambient temperature and giving the battery time to rest before and after charging if possible.... perhaps they should just design the batteries and charger to operate from 80 to 20 percent capacity out of the box?
It's time for battery manufacturers to get with the game and make a more optimized battery that lets us use more than 60% of the battery to get the full time lit of it. This is outrageous that we can nearly only use half the battery's actually capacity. That is what is what is not very practical that no one is talking about.n
From personal experience, I think electric bikes have a maximum lifetime of no more than ten years, unlike “analog” bikes which can last much longer. Most electric bikes are now software dominated. This is similar to smartphones, and notice that phones go to unsupported mode within five years or so. My philosophy: purchase and ride your ebike as if the entire system has a 10-year max lifetime. With this in mind, most batteries will last 10 years without special pampering. If you try to minimize going below 10%, I think you’ll have a battery that lasts as long or longer than your ebike. My 2019 Rad City “made smoke” when the motor controller apparently glitched. Motor and battery and instrument panel were still fine. I was unwilling to try replacing the controller, as I had no way of knowing whether other parts of the wiring harness had been damaged, plus the manufacturer no longer stocked the controller anyway! So it’s a shame e-bikes seem to be shorter-lived than regular bikes, but I think that’s the reality. With that in mind, a battery that lasts ten years may outlive the bike, so there’s little gain in ‘saving’ the battery by halving your range.
My non-electric Peugot road bike lasted 40 years and was still operable when I switched to electric bikes in 2015. It's disapointing that RAD no longer stocked the controller you needed. I thought they were better than that.
@ When a model has been discontinued for several years (as my direct-drive hub motor RadCity was) it’s completely expectable that a manufacturer won’t maintain a warehouse full of spares for a discontinuted model. Shrug. The technology for ebikes has been changing quite a bit; perhaps in a few decades it will stabilize. 😊
Nope a Lithium battery life is dependant on several factors: the number of full charge cycles, storage condtions, make, slow or quck charges etc. Be easy to ask how long is a piece of string?
Yes i always use the 30-80% rule and 70% charge as storage level. Most important is that you should never leave the Batt at very low or full level for longer than a few days. when you charge your batt. just put on a timer and check when the last indicator led starts blinking or is on. If you plan a long ride on the next day, top it up to 100%. btw E Fit batt systems as found on Pinion GMU bikes have a possibility to set a ' long life charge cycle" =80% . Also, avoid quick charging.
I do not use the 80-20 rule. My rad batteries are charged after every ride to the full amount allowed by the provided charger. I have a 10 ah and a 14 ah. I like longer rides. I start my ride with the 10 ah and ride till the display flashes, where I then switch to the 14 ah to get home, knowing it will absolutely get me there. That gets me about 50 km outbound and of course 50 km back. That is about all my tush can handle lol. I bought the second battery after 1 year with the original 14 ah because I ran out on one ride about 10 blocks from home. I then bought the 10 ah. They are 3 and 4 years old and do not seem to be deteriorating so far. I will be out again this spring and I will report how this 5th year goes. I ride a Rad city with over 3000 km.
Hi, I appreciated your video. I'm in the belief that 'mid cycliing' a battery is probably a good thing, and current limiting them (charge). However, it should be noted, to keep the individual cells balanced, the battery would require a FULL charge. Eg/ as it cell reaches it's max 14.6v, they will turn off allowing the remaining cells to 'catch up'. (take possibe cell and/or BMS malfunction into consideration) Full cycliing/charger would only be required once or twice a year, or whenever your going on a long ride. This is only my own personal view...
@@RobertBeriault753 It is, you charge the battery to suit the planned ride so in your example the 20-80% gets chucked out the window...keeping to the 20-80 rule where possible does extend battery life. You will at times be at 100% and as ..214 stated be balancing the cells asssuming its left long enough on charge to do so. More importantly is battery charge % when not in use / storage anything around 50-80% will suffice. And no mid cycling not a good idea or any charge routine that restricts / limits charge cycles, using an E-Bike on a regular basis will in effect make that difficult in any event. If your battery is of a smaller capacity and only 1 battery in use then I'd say the 20-80% will not work out. The very worse thing you can do is to leave a battery in a sub 20% level for a long period of time, same rule for 100%. There is a charge cycle quota, using the 20-80% / general good maintance of your battery rule will extend the number of cycles as the individual cells will have been kept in a good state, a lot depends on the make of the battery quite frankly. So quoting the number of years a battery will last is very difficult / near impossible to determine before it dies on you! These rules apply to any Lithium battery. Hope this helps.
cycle satiator user checking in. i use the 70-40 rule. been using the same battery and charger for 10 years now. Basically no change in the past 10 years on either. I have gone through a few bikes though. Bicycles cannot handle the extra speed/weight/kms that a big battery affords you. The main benefit of larger batteries is the power. Most EVs are power limited on the battery side. A bigger battery allows for more power. The main benefit of the satiator is the build quality. [No fans. Thermal regulation. Water proof.] Secondary to the build quality, the programmability it nice too. You can charge as slow or fast as you want to any level you want. On batteries in general: I only charge what I need. If i need a trip that takes 300 Wh, I will charge up 300 Wh worth. I don't rely on any smart features of the charger. I know how much power the charger is putting out and I know how many minutes or hours it takes to charge the Wh needed for the trip. I plug in x number of hrs before the trip to get the right number of Wh. This can be done with any charger and any EV.
@@RobertBeriault753 The cycle analyst helps keep track of everything. Very useful for ebiking. But you can achieve similar things by knowing how far you can go on a charge and how long it takes you to charge. I think 10-20 km per hour of charging is pretty typical. I wouldn't mind a bit higher like 30-40 km/h charging.
Specialized App for their E-bikes controls charging and has a 'tick box' to stop charging at 80%. However, if this option is selected, every tenth charge continues to 100%. I've never gone below 20% but understand battery assist cuts out at 20%. Most of my rides no more than 50 miles but in summer I do occasional 70 mile, so de-select 80% for those rides.
Just a quick note, there is no reason to over think if you want to use the 80-20 rule. It doesn't have to be exactly 80% charge, 75-85% you are still in the safe range of the 80-20 rule. Discharge you probably wouldn't want to get below 15% though.
Probably it is good to store the battery at 20-80% over Winter. If the battery is charged to 100% and then used (discharged) immediately, then this is ok in my opinion.
almost , paying 100% then extracting 200% of the lifetime over all by cycling 80/20 is probably worth it , I charge to 100 hours prior to use and store at 20-30% so its a kind of best of both worlds . I use a timer to set the time id like my battery to hit 100% charged
Thanks
You didn't mention about when the BMS balances the cells. Most BMS do a top balance so you need to charge to 100% . Personally I just go out and do a daily ride and when I get back charge the battery up to 100% knowing it will be top balanced in the last phase of the charging cycle. Any thing else is just to complicated.
Good point. I should do a video specifically on battery care.
Hey Robert any news on Your Wagon design or build to divulge yet?
I'm ready to start this week. Thanks for inquring.
@RobertBeriault753 oh goody goody goody
I've been terrible at observing that rule but I've been fairly careful about charging at ambient temperature and giving the battery time to rest before and after charging if possible.... perhaps they should just design the batteries and charger to operate from 80 to 20 percent capacity out of the box?
It is possible that battery makers will eventually learn how to optimize charging limits.
Perhaps the best answer to the question is hey where are those solid state batteries they promised us 10 years ago?
I'd like to know that too.
@RobertBeriault753 likely in the uaps?
It's time for battery manufacturers to get with the game and make a more optimized battery that lets us use more than 60% of the battery to get the full time lit of it. This is outrageous that we can nearly only use half the battery's actually capacity. That is what is what is not very practical that no one is talking about.n
I suppose they're having trouble bypassing the limits of chemistry and thermodynamics.
@@RobertBeriault753 can't wait till they make a break through. It's high tide we get some quality batteries that last much longer in our devices.
They do you can use 100% of your battery capacity, it would appear the limiting factor in your set up is YOU?
@peteturner8493 good try Mr Motivational
From personal experience, I think electric bikes have a maximum lifetime of no more than ten years, unlike “analog” bikes which can last much longer. Most electric bikes are now software dominated. This is similar to smartphones, and notice that phones go to unsupported mode within five years or so. My philosophy: purchase and ride your ebike as if the entire system has a 10-year max lifetime. With this in mind, most batteries will last 10 years without special pampering. If you try to minimize going below 10%, I think you’ll have a battery that lasts as long or longer than your ebike.
My 2019 Rad City “made smoke” when the motor controller apparently glitched. Motor and battery and instrument panel were still fine. I was unwilling to try replacing the controller, as I had no way of knowing whether other parts of the wiring harness had been damaged, plus the manufacturer no longer stocked the controller anyway! So it’s a shame e-bikes seem to be shorter-lived than regular bikes, but I think that’s the reality. With that in mind, a battery that lasts ten years may outlive the bike, so there’s little gain in ‘saving’ the battery by halving your range.
My non-electric Peugot road bike lasted 40 years and was still operable when I switched to electric bikes in 2015. It's disapointing that RAD no longer stocked the controller you needed. I thought they were better than that.
@ When a model has been discontinued for several years (as my direct-drive hub motor RadCity was) it’s completely expectable that a manufacturer won’t maintain a warehouse full of spares for a discontinuted model. Shrug. The technology for ebikes has been changing quite a bit; perhaps in a few decades it will stabilize. 😊
Let's hope
@@RobertBeriault753 Pointless to compare an e-bike to a traditional bike 2 different uses.
Nope a Lithium battery life is dependant on several factors: the number of full charge cycles, storage condtions, make, slow or quck charges etc.
Be easy to ask how long is a piece of string?
Yes i always use the 30-80% rule and 70% charge as storage level. Most important is that you should never leave the Batt at very low or full level for longer than a few days. when you charge your batt. just put on a timer and check when the last indicator led starts blinking or is on. If you plan a long ride on the next day, top it up to 100%. btw E Fit batt systems as found on Pinion GMU bikes have a possibility to set a ' long life charge cycle" =80% . Also, avoid quick charging.
Thank you for your advice. Sounds like common sense things to do or not do.
Commonly accepted rule is 20-80% so you just lost 10% for no reason.
I do not use the 80-20 rule. My rad batteries are charged after every ride to the full amount allowed by the provided charger. I have a 10 ah and a 14 ah. I like longer rides. I start my ride with the 10 ah and ride till the display flashes, where I then switch to the 14 ah to get home, knowing it will absolutely get me there. That gets me about 50 km outbound and of course 50 km back. That is about all my tush can handle lol. I bought the second battery after 1 year with the original 14 ah because I ran out on one ride about 10 blocks from home. I then bought the 10 ah. They are 3 and 4 years old and do not seem to be deteriorating so far. I will be out again this spring and I will report how this 5th year goes. I ride a Rad city with over 3000 km.
That's the best strategy.
Hi, I appreciated your video.
I'm in the belief that 'mid cycliing' a battery is probably a good thing, and current limiting them (charge).
However, it should be noted, to keep the individual cells balanced, the battery would require a FULL charge.
Eg/ as it cell reaches it's max 14.6v, they will turn off allowing the remaining cells to 'catch up'.
(take possibe cell and/or BMS malfunction into consideration)
Full cycliing/charger would only be required once or twice a year, or whenever your going on a long ride.
This is only my own personal view...
That sounds like a good way to get more life out of the battery.
@@RobertBeriault753 It is, you charge the battery to suit the planned ride so in your example the 20-80% gets chucked out the window...keeping to the 20-80 rule where possible does extend battery life. You will at times be at 100% and as ..214 stated be balancing the cells asssuming its left long enough on charge to do so.
More importantly is battery charge % when not in use / storage anything around 50-80% will suffice.
And no mid cycling not a good idea or any charge routine that restricts / limits charge cycles, using an E-Bike on a regular basis will in effect make that difficult in any event.
If your battery is of a smaller capacity and only 1 battery in use then I'd say the 20-80% will not work out.
The very worse thing you can do is to leave a battery in a sub 20% level for a long period of time, same rule for 100%.
There is a charge cycle quota, using the 20-80% / general good maintance of your battery rule will extend the number of cycles as the individual cells will have been kept in a good state, a lot depends on the make of the battery quite frankly. So quoting the number of years a battery will last is very difficult / near impossible to determine before it dies on you!
These rules apply to any Lithium battery.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the clarification.
cycle satiator user checking in. i use the 70-40 rule. been using the same battery and charger for 10 years now. Basically no change in the past 10 years on either. I have gone through a few bikes though. Bicycles cannot handle the extra speed/weight/kms that a big battery affords you.
The main benefit of larger batteries is the power. Most EVs are power limited on the battery side. A bigger battery allows for more power.
The main benefit of the satiator is the build quality. [No fans. Thermal regulation. Water proof.] Secondary to the build quality, the programmability it nice too. You can charge as slow or fast as you want to any level you want.
On batteries in general: I only charge what I need. If i need a trip that takes 300 Wh, I will charge up 300 Wh worth. I don't rely on any smart features of the charger. I know how much power the charger is putting out and I know how many minutes or hours it takes to charge the Wh needed for the trip. I plug in x number of hrs before the trip to get the right number of Wh. This can be done with any charger and any EV.
You're a very well organized fella. Thanks for your input.
@@RobertBeriault753 The cycle analyst helps keep track of everything. Very useful for ebiking. But you can achieve similar things by knowing how far you can go on a charge and how long it takes you to charge.
I think 10-20 km per hour of charging is pretty typical. I wouldn't mind a bit higher like 30-40 km/h charging.
Right!
Specialized App for their E-bikes controls charging and has a 'tick box' to stop charging at 80%. However, if this option is selected, every tenth charge continues to 100%. I've never gone below 20% but understand battery assist cuts out at 20%. Most of my rides no more than 50 miles but in summer I do occasional 70 mile, so de-select 80% for those rides.
Sounds like a good charging system.
Almost bought a Specialized e-bike glad I didn't as did one very long ride where I required 100% of the battery capacity.
Just a quick note, there is no reason to over think if you want to use the 80-20 rule. It doesn't have to be exactly 80% charge, 75-85% you are still in the safe range of the 80-20 rule. Discharge you probably wouldn't want to get below 15% though.
Thanks for pointing that out.
@@RobertBeriault753 You are welcome, thank you for posting this information.
Probably it is good to store the battery at 20-80% over Winter.
If the battery is charged to 100% and then used (discharged) immediately, then this is ok in my opinion.
You're right.
Its always good paying 100% for something then only getting 80%
😂
almost , paying 100% then extracting 200% of the lifetime over all by cycling 80/20 is probably worth it , I charge to 100 hours prior to use and store at 20-30% so its a kind of best of both worlds . I use a timer to set the time id like my battery to hit 100% charged
7 years is not so bad
And if you can double that, it would be terrific.
Don't use the bar or percentage scales, as they are all too often inaccurate. Use, or learn to use, the voltage scale for your particular battery.
I wouldn't know how to do that. But it might be useful for a more technical minded viewer. Thanks.
not worth of 80-20 rule
I think you're right.
I use an outlet timer so I can walk away and forget about it. Its imprecise but thats ok as per daveallen63 below.
That can certainly be a help.