Arson and Insanity at York Minster
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- The History Guy explores the trial of Jonathan Martin for arson at York Minster. It was a sensation at the time, an early test of the meaning of insanity, and deserves to be remembered.
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This is original content based on research by The History Guy. Images in the Public Domain are carefully selected and provide illustration. As very few images of the actual event are available in the Public Domain, images of similar objects and events are used for illustration.
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Script by THG
#history #thehistoryguy #York
Superb video THG. While stationed in West Germany in the 1970's we were able to visit York and see the cathedral as well as the remnants of the Roman city walls. Thanks for your efforts.
👍
It's crazy that you say West Germany and many of the younger viewers are like, why is he saying geographically where he was in Germany?
I learned two things here: the actual meaning of "minster", and that there were legal precedents that predated the McNaughton trial and subsequent rule. I wish all of my grammar, history and law teachers had been as easy to learn from as you are. Thank you!
So Westminster means west monastery. Interesting.
Again....Interesting and educational. Two things to add....as a retired firefighter I've noted people starting fires generally break down into three categories. Curious children, deliberate fires for profit and those who have some form of mental illness. Secondly...its astonishing that throughout history, often acts of violence or destructive behavior are always preceeded by odd behavior, comments and actions that are ignored. Old church fires are particularly fierce and difficult to fight as the construction is of heavy timbers that give off intense heat and the intention of design/construction is to be ornate instead of fire resistant and aid in fire spread.
@Lawofimprobability The extreme heat/btu's given off of these large diameter wood building components make the environment uninhabitable for firefighters....especially during this time period. Often metal components fail as well causing collapse. Intentional cuts in the wood or "fire cuts" are made so the ceilings/floors collapse rather than push or pull the walls down. These structures are deceiving...the exterior is non combustible or fire resistant and it does take substantial fire / time to get the timbers going but once they do....the amount of heat is unsurvivable and there usually isn't enough "gpm's to conquer the btu's". Churches are often iconic, historic and vital parts of a community and often because of this fire crews can overextend themselves and ignore the risk vs benefit.
Here in Southern California a few years back we had a string of arson's that were started by a guy who was trying to become a fireman. After around 4 of these they got suspicious because he would always show up or be connected with the crime.
@@PaulRudd1941Are you thinking of John Leonard Orr? He was a Californian fire fighter that is suspected of having been responsible for quite a few arson incidents before he was finally arrested. This was during the 80s and 90s.
The tradition of fire starting is a Pagan Scandinavian tradition of the Germanic and Scandinavian or Nordic religions. Traditionally used against invading Romans and Southern Europeans in Northern nations. It's a widely respected religious practice amount some peoples.
@@lukeshaul820 Interesting. That may be true as of the 13th Century....however...most arsonists are mentally ill, seeking profit or seeking attention.
I'm from York and the city has some amazing history. The minster is such a magnificent building and can be seen from miles around. The entire building is a work of art. I havnt been inside for a few years but last time I was there they allowed people to go up onto the roof.
Wandered as a child among the lead mines, which is bad for the brain, traumatic experience losing his sister, brutally kidnapped and impressed to serve on a ship in hard labor, suffered a serious blow to the head, and a hard drinker losing his pants. Add the decay that follows old age. So his actions had less to do with religion itself making him a fanatic, than his injuries making him a religious fanatic with delusions of Godhood.
This is what religion does to people. It turns perfectly sane, well-adjusted people into stark raving lunatics willing to burn down public property and commit theft and vandalism for a genuine, overpowering sense of servility toward an abstract concept of which they have no proof of its existence. This man literally destroyed the largest building in York for a phantom, a ghost in the sky, because his mind was warped by intense and severe religious indoctrination his entire life. The worst part: people who do what he did legitimately believe they are above the law, exempt from punishment, and that their crimes are justified because they are doing it for a "higher power," it's the most perverse kind of thinking, and the most twisted, inverted kind of logic ever, and the worst part is that millions of people around the world subscribe to it and fervently practice it.
@@adamvicari3295 so perfectly describes the left.
@@martinbeckmann9376 I agree,it describes them perfectly too. They are just as bad as religious fundamentalists are, and both have been either severely indoctrinated or are the ones doing the indoctrination.
@Vacari In regard to Christianity religion is only three things I assume you are referring to faith. That being said, because of that, how can much of what you say be taken seriously.
This was, what I came here to comment upon. But yours was greater in multiple layers - thank you
I am from the same village as John and Jonathan Martin. We have a street named after John, but hardly anyone local knows anything about Jonathan, and if they do it's just a quick factoid of "he once tried to burn down York Minster". Nobody knows the details it seems, so thank you for posting this, I'll be sharing it around a few people in the village.
By the way, if you're ever visiting the area you can still visit the Martin family home. A lot of our local tourism is John Martin-based!
Thank you for pronouncing Yorkshire correctly, always appreciated when details like that are paid attention to
Oh almighty algorithm, for which we view, bless this Guy of History, educated be he, with comments most sincere and shares on all platforms. For he is the one who remembers that which should be.
Have a nice day all.
It's interesting that you mention Martin seeing judgement in thunderstorms at the end, because the 1984 fire at York Minster was also attributed by some at the time to be divine judgement on the Church of England. Just a few days before the fire, the Bishop of Durham had been consecrated in the Minster. The new Bishop, David Jenkins, was deeply controversial with a lot of traditionalist Christians because of his unorthodox views on the virgin birth and the resurrection (the latter he is often misquoted as having described as 'a conjuring trick with bones'). So when a lightning strike set fire to the south transept just three days later it was widely interpreted by Jenkins' opponents as being the wrath of God. Martin might have approved more than we realise!
David Jenkins comments Beleif that the virgin birth was a myth was sufficient to mean he broke the vows he made when he became a clergyman in the Church of England. He should have lost his job rather than been promoted to Bishop, according to the rules of the Church of England.
York Minster is my favorite church in England, by far. Apart from it's beauty and age it has an air of light and peace. Very emotional place, even for this Atheist. The setting is one of almost perfection and York a great city. Anyone who has not been there can spend a long week end and find it full of interest.
This is what religion does to people. It turns perfectly sane, well-adjusted people into stark raving lunatics willing to burn down public property and commit theft and vandalism for a genuine, overpowering sense of servility toward and abstract concept of which they have no proof of it's existence. This man literally destroyed the largest building in York for a phantom, ghost in the sky, because his mind was warped by intense and severe religious indoctrination his entire life. The worst part: people who did what he did legitimately believe they are above the law, exempt from punishment, and that their crimes are justified because they are doing it for a "higher power," it's the most perverse kind of thinking, and the most twisted, inverted kind of logic ever, and the worst part is that millions of people around the world subscribe to it and fervently practice it.
Thank you for doing a video on my most beloved of cities!!!! 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Another fascinating episode. Love the channel and your presentation of lesser known historical facts and stories.
Thank you, HG.
Is that a working TARDIS on the shelf?
So that's how you get so many facts from the past...you go there!
Doctor History Guy.
Depends what you mean by "working." It has sounds and lights, but, to my knowledge, does not manipulate time and relative dimension in space.
The 1984 fire occurred shortly after the appointment of a slightly controversial clergyman as the new bishop. Some of the UK population suggested (tongue in cheek) that it was caused by a thunderbolt sent from Heaven!
Jonathan Martin might suggest the same.
Not tongue in cheek, but seriously. The fire occurred three days after David Jenkins had been consecrated as Bishop of Durham; he wasn't slightly controversial, but an outright heretic who denied fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and there were protests against his appointment. The Church of England General Synod declined to take action on Saturday, and Archbishop Habgood, speaking in the Minster on Sunday, declined to rebuke Bishop Jenkins. Those who witnessed the conflagration said that it was no mere lightning strike but a tremendous electrical storm, and that a strange-looking cloud had been hanging directly over the cathedral for hours before it struck
@@orbyfan I agree that in most cases it very probably wasn't tongue in cheek.
It's amazing how snide some can become when matters of faith are mentioned - as though all people who believe are little more than savages dancing around fires - while conveniently forgetting that the fact that we can explain how something occurred does not, in and of itself, prove or disprove anyone's beliefs or faith. Do we know it was God? No. Does anyone know it wasn't? No. There's room for both sets of beliefs to exist without the need for people to be disparaging of one another.
I once dated a woman who turned out to be bipolar, and her delusions were often of a religious nature. This leads me to believe that this disorder could have been the problem.
That is the most common diagnosis today. It doesn't seem to be pyromania, in that he seemed to get no particularly thrill from fire. But he might have suffered from other delusional disorders or, some suggest, post traumatic stress disorder.
i'm bipolar and i've never experienced delusions, religious or otherwise. schizophrenic people, on the other hand, do experience delusions. just sayin'.
@@TheHistoryGuyChannel Yes, I would say that PTSD is a candidate for his problem, too.
@@CthulhuInc Well, the human mind is a very complicated, so I would think being bipolar manifests itself in different ways from individual to individual. I researched bipolarism while dating the woman, and she had all the listed signs: believing she was related to someone famous, believing that she was communing with a variety of deities, etc. Though your argument about schizophrenia sounds valid, too.
As a crisis clinical social worker I have on many occasions worked with people in the throes of religious delusions. Many are suffering from mania while some have schizophrenia; seldom have I seen depressed people with religious delusions but feelings of hopelessness do occur. As a practicing Christian I pray inwardly for God's Grace to help these suffering souls. Mental illness is a sad affliction that nowadays has many treatments that truly help, thank God.
Pictures of the York Minster is impressive, to actually walk inside the building is awe inspiring to say the least. I had the good fortune to do just that in the spring of 1998. I had no words at the time to describe what I witnessed. The Minster was under foundation repair at the time. The engineers digging under the building found a part of the Roman fort that stood there, they also found a still working Roman sewer pipe with running water. That is a visit I will never forget for as long as I live.
I'm crazy about videos like this, they always spark my imagination. I usually watch them over and over and over again...Ha! Cheers again from Kansas City, the right side of the state, and the state line!
Now I'll never look at John Martin's paintings like his "Destruction of Pompeii" without wondering if something ran in his family.
And on occasion, galloped in his family.
@@DavidChipman Good one! 🤣
This story reminds my of the man who burned down the Athens Acropolis (500 BC?), when asked why he did it, he said:
*"Because the Acropolis is the most famous building in the history of mankind, in destroying that building, he/I would be famous"*
I have purposefully never learned the name of that man.
“"I don't really hate you
I don't care what you do
We were made for each other
Me and you
I want to be somebody
You were like that too
If you don't get given you learn to take
And I will take you."
Peter Gabriel: Family Snapshot
My only criticism would be to spend a few seconds on the importance on the The Venerable Bede.
I wonder how many viewers know what is meant by ‘match’?🤔
*Not* what we would call a match today, but what we would call a fuse; think dynamite, or muzzle loading canon… or Bugs Bunny/coyote and road runner cartoons!😸
THIS IS PROBABLY THE VERY CORRECT SENTENCE THAT HE WOULD GET EVEN TODAY 🤣.
Do a history of Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Paris. A place to be remembered
I Just finished an episode of modern marvels which was all about cathedrals, very timely video today.
Fascinating to find out a bit of the history of my home town. York Minster can still be seen for miles around. York is on a flood plain and local planning rules state that no building within a set area can be more than half the height of the Monster, to preserve the view.
"Minster"......🤨
On the heavily pixelated images try a blur filter followed by a sharpen filter. You may find that you can remove a lot of the jaggedness of line art.
We use Public Domain images, and sometimes resolution is not the best. I have spent a lot of time trying to improve with filters and programs, but find they make little difference.
@@TheHistoryGuyChannel History also has "filters" which should not be removed. The History Guy removes the filters of politics, religion, and the current insanity of racism. This, combined with his Outstanding performance, is one of the reasons why his audience Loves him, in my humble opinion.
Man... What I wouldn't give to have lived back then...
I'd be free to wear my seal skins and ride my donkey any time I want.
Unlike now...
Apparently
Another interesting and informative account, showing how historic incidents live on in the changes to our legal system, the basis of which many of us are ignorant. Grazi!
Bumper sticker, “I do what the voices in my head tell me to do”.. probably written by this guy.
Known simply as "York Minster". Never referred to as a cathedral.
His writings were filled with visions and prophecies but he still wasn't perceived as dangerous."
One could the same of just about any teavangelical preacher.
It’s called York Minster, not York “Minster Cathedral”.
Wow! A sailor getting drunk and losing his pants. First time in history that’s happened. 😀
Thank you once again for quality content. Your videos are my favorite thing to see when I wake in the morning.
an astounding building... Hexhamshire?
Men never commit evil so gleefully and with a lighter heart than when they do so with GOD as their excuse.
That is actually a Catholic Cathedral which is history that deserves to be remembered. Maybe they should give it back?
I would say that the verdict was definitely correct in this case considering J M's upbringing, traumatic life experiences, and head injury.
I just love your videos about random eccentrics or people with interesting lives that I otherwise would never have heard of. Always a treat
If you can get to York and climb the many narrow stairs, the view is well worth it.
Thanks for the awesome content!!
Another interesting story from the History Guy , I was in awe of that mighty Cathedral when we visited many years ago , there is a lot of evidence of both the Viking and Roman occupation of the city of York , with the Roman stone wall wide enough to bear a charoit encircling the town and the recently discovered early remains of a Viking settlement during modern building work , it is now a popular tourist experience called Yorvik I think .
Not just under the MInster that interesting archeological finds have been made in York, I remember another church where the same happened.
If he was alive today,he would most likely be a televangelist$$$$$🤣
As usual,an excellent presentation... Thanks again History Guy!
He would indeed, as so many televangelists have very little to do with real Christianity or its principles, in the same manner in which this man apparently did.
Dude, where's my pants? Oh well... I'm so embarrassed I'm going to burn a church.
I have had my youthful indiscretions, but never lost my trousers...
It's a fine line between religious zealotry and insanity.
Only the facts matter.
173880
Have you seen the electric resistivity scans of Noah’s ark?
Another superb video. Wow, 3 years to rebuild? I hope Notre Dame of Paris is rebuilt in at least 5 years.
Three years is pretty amazing, given that it took 250 years to build.
@@TheHistoryGuyChannel Agreed. How long did the 1986 fire take to repair?
When someone in your family has money and can hire you a great lawyer.
I've reached the conclusion that all religious folk are mad, it's just a matter of degree.
I've reached the conclusion that you're probably gay, but just to a matter of degree.....
@Mckeowen Religion and faith are actually two different things. If you don't even know that your thinking on the matter is flawed to begin with.
@@michaelportone2915 My apologies Michael, I was unaware that I compared the two However now you've mentioned it, I would assert that since force has been removed as an incentive, (in civilised societies), religion depends upon faith for it's continued existence. I have witnessed first hand, the actions of those who follow an unquestionable faith. As you're no doubt aware, religion is not unique in this. I will ignore Carlton's infantile comment
@@davymckeown4577 You are in fact correct. Like with any parasitic relationship one suffers while the other dies not. Religion has become everything that a true Christian should see as noxious.
Truth is hard to find, if you’re not looking for it. 173380 changed my mind & worldview.
Also the electric resistivity scans of Noah’s ark.
If I ever have reason to send someone a death threat, I’m absolutely going to sign it “Your Sincerest Friend.”
Are you sure this isn’t a story about joe biden??
I have always thought that “not guilty by reason of insanity” was an odd way to describe a criminal act. If a crime was committed by an individual and they actually did the crime, you can’t say that they were not guilty because in fact they were. A more accurate term in my opinion, would be “guilty but insane”. I know that this involves a mix of semantics and law but it would add closure to a crime and still allow for justice to be served.
Guilt requires not just an illegal act, but the intention to commit the illegal act. An act committed by someone who is truly insane would be missing intent. If someone stepped in front of a car that was traveling the speed limit and was killed, no one would say that the driver was "guilty but unlucky".
@@airfrere I think you missed my point. I agree with what you say in that intent is not the sole basis of a crime. Intent would make you guilty of the crime; insanity would make you not culpable of the crime. If you are truly insane as determined by a court of law, you cannot be held culpable of the crime you committed. However, you did commit the crime which would make you guilty of the act. That’s why I said a better terminology would be guilty but insane which would put closure to the crime and at the same time remove the culpability of the criminal.
@@Osoyoos48 .
There is a thing in law known as 'Mens Rea', or a guilty mind, essentially it means for a person to be found guilty of a crime, the prosecution must show the accused knew or should have known they were doing a wrongful act at the time it was committed.
If a mental illness over which they had no control, means the person thought there was nothing wrong, they cannot be found guilty even if there was no doubt they did commit the act.
@@grahvis In my original post, I said that I thought “not guilty by reason of insanity” was an odd way to put it. I said that “guilty but insane” would be a more accurate description of a criminal act and also said that it was a semantic issue within the legal system. My follow-on post was a response to my opinion about the semantic issue, not the legal one. If a person committed a criminal act, the fact is they did commit it which would make them guilty of the crime. If they were insane when the crime was committed, they are still guilty of the crime but not culpable of the act. Guilt and culpability are two different issues. Guilt means you committed the crime; culpability determines how much responsibility you have for your actions. If you are found not guilty, then who is? You end up with a victim and no perpetrator. That’s why I said it’s a semantic issue within the legal system. I don’t have a problem with the law, I just think it’s an odd way to state it.
I feel like insanity is an understatement. Maybe….
I’d love to see one on Lillie Langtry 💕 I love these videos
The artist renderings of the fire are eerily similar to the photos taken of the Notre Dame fire a couple years ago.
Who would have thought that someone who believes in an invisible sky daddy might not be mentally stable?
And those mentally unstable who do not believe? What of them.
Justice is the mark of civilization. This verdict is an example of it.
Very cool, another awesome history lesson. Thank you for sharing this with us.
Very well done, thank you.
the title suggest a theme from 2020 USA ... so pleasant surprise it was from an earlier time. ground-breaking verdict from a time when the penalty was Death for serious crimes. indeed "arson in Her Majesty's dockyards" remained a Capitol offence AFTER the abolition of the death penalty in 1960's UK , along with Treason. . only being fully abolished about 20 years ago.
Love from DeKalb Mississippi USA 🇺🇸
Home of the bloody 43rd Ms
One is reminded of the destruction of the Temple of Artemis or Artemision (Greek: Ἀρτεμίσιον) at Ephesus in 356 BC by Herostratus in an act of arson.
I see CHRYSANTHYMUMS in Thunder Storms. Commonly known as "mums"
why didn't they burn down the London tower instead ?
York Minster is fascinating to look at, either up close or from the Howardian Hills 20-odd miles to the north on a clear summers day. From where I live it is but a short 28mile or 2h by bike and its well worth the effort.
York is lovely
As a native of the County of York I am familiar with the Minster, and as a child had an almost life- (or at least manhood)-changing experience when sliding down the stair rail of nearby Clifford's Tower, only to meet an end-stop in distressing orchidal congress.
I was not familiar with this story - so many thanks.
TMI you neutered muppet
This is fascinating. I'm an admirer of John Martin, which is how I know about Jonathan burning York Minster, but didn't know much more than that. From what I have read, I gather John actually attracted the nickname "Mad Martin" on account of his brother's activities because people couldn't tell them apart (I blame the parents for their lack of imagination). Damned if there's not some kind of madness in those paintings even so, though.
Do visit York if you ever have the chance. The Minster is beautiful but the nearby old town is little lanes full of very interesting shops and cafes.
"the bede" is always referred to as " THE VENERABLE BEDE" in the uk.
Im hoping you do a video on the battle of Blair mountain. Its an oftern forgotten part of American history
Oddly enough, in 1984 it was the Archbishop of Canterbury whose sacriligous utterings may have angered The Good Lord Who thereupon struck the wrong Minster with lightning causing the second roof fire at York--not Canterbury. I visited York Minster in 1999 and heard a concert there with its aweful acoustics. Also noteworthy is the monumental tomb to the Marquess of Rockingham whose ten-month government in 1782 (The Rockingham Whigs) was decisive in getting Britain to accept and then propose the independence of ALL 13 colonies and NOT try to hold onto territory (such as NY Harbor) which they would control until 1784!.
Thanks very much🤩👍...l like the 4K video well done...👀👍
First to comment! Thanks for another great insight to little to forgotten History
*Third
Thank you,sir.
When I was in 5th grade, I learned about how these cathedrals were built with flying buttress and stained glass, I wonder about the education young people get these days.
Wikipedia has his place of incarceration as St' Lukes Hospital for Lunatics, not the Hospital of St. Mary of Bethlem (Bedlam). Which is right?
The thunderstorm "visions" are clearly pagan in origin. Probably one of the Germanic or Nordic Gods. This is fairly common with some Scandinavians.
I have successfully used the plea NGRI, though of course everyone in the court system hates it. We have a Mental Health Court in Albuquerque, for those of us who have a criminal history that might not exist if our mental concerns were properly met. It's a lot of work, and not everyone is successful, though it's certainly progress, and for me it was absolutely worth it.
What a marvelous fresh topic and analysis. But who's to say Martin was insane at all? Clergy are absolutely horrible now -- I'm sure they were in his day.
This is a lifelong church musician speaking here. I love the robes and ritual rigmarole as much as anybody, but Martin's message is as urgently needed today all over Christendom as it was back then in York. I don't advocate arson, but if pew-sitters actually listened to the claptrap that passes for preaching they'd revolt.
The Smithsonian burned around 1865.
How come we never hear about that?
Crazy Gods Ssy..
It is not Honourable For A Warrior to let
Sin Pass on To the Rest Of The Universe..
Death My Release
8:55.... Good Lord, if roast beef is a sin, I'm going to hell! I stop at Arby's for a roast beef sandwich just about any time I get a hankering for one! 😂
As a former resident of Darlington I can tell you that the newspaper you referred to is called the "Northern Echo" and not the "Darlington Northern Echo" or the "Darlington Echo". 🙂
Thank you for a wonderful history lesson, you tell it so well. I was captivated to hear the whole story, I was late coming back from break but it was worth it!
*VIDEO IDEA*
can you fill us in with more of the forgotten tragedy stuff. Like the train on July 9th, 1918. Deadliest train wreck ever
Maybe a long-lost relative of Ted Kaczynski?
"Bede goes on..."
And The Bede goes on
Latin grammar pounding in my brain...
Interesting that the arsonist Jonathan Martin had a brother named John Martin, the famous painter. Odd in that John is the short form version of Jonathan. I wonder why their parents did that, having two sons named John/Jonathan! It'd be interesting to find out!
Must have been confusing at times.
I think the commentary said there were 12 children in the family so perhaps the parents ran out of names and decided to sort of adapt the name of an older child.
I'm a big fan of thunderstorms and tornadoes. I can see why people thought it was god's wrath before science explained it to us.
I also am a "fan," I guess you'd say, of thunderstorms and tornadoes, a student of meteorology and am also a man of faith. One does not exclude the other, much as so many would like to pretend it does - and indeed, HAS not for most of history.
Algorithm food!
In 1984 I was in York and I saw the flames coming out from the roof, call it a coincidence or an act of God the minister had just been used in the ordination of the new Bishop of Durham who had also called in to doubt the virgin birth. I visited York many times I am from the north-east of England so it wasn’t very far for me to travel the minister is one of the most beautiful buildings in the world I could just sit there for hours just in awe of the beauty that surrounds you. Thank you as ever your history videos are brilliant
Since his "agent" failed to do the job properly, God had to step in and finish the job himself? (Lightning being an "act of God".)
Love Minster but to me the work of the "mouse man" has a better connection to me than the huge Gothic structure. The restoration work in the foundations to hold up the mighty tower are stunning works. Next time you are in the UK go and see the crypt and foundations.
York Minster is called a Minster dating back to when Ethelburg was to be betrothed to Edwin and stated that her Ministers were to be allowed to administer to the people of the York area. This then got changed to Minster. It is any place that was a Mother church. York Minster was not attached to a monastery, which is why it survived the Reformation
I have no questions about it. He was brought up under a religiously abusive household. Poor bloke. That type of abuse causes some very deep trauma and psychosis. But I must say he was very bold going against the church like that so long ago. It's a shame that he was right, and no change has been made to this day.
Despite that, I am very saddened by the lost Gothic architecture, as well as the loss of the organ. And I don't even want to think about the lost books and manuscripts.
Shades of Norte Dame
I hope so, in that the lesson is that even this can be repaired.
He must have been a neighbor of Benjamin Franklin if he was in the tanning bed business in 1762.
Aye -- the MacNaughton rule.... I know it well....
Why can’t there be a real Real history channel on T V beyond crab fishing and timber harvesting?
THG is so hot right now it's like he's on fire. 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥