@@GaryNewsom1 I used to say that too. Eventually like me, you might realise that you’ve trapped yourself in a hellish level of consciousness that brings you and your people suffering & strife while you remain completely unaware of that. Hell is a Truth discovered too late. Good luck on your journey Gary.
@@kanemclaren5991 unfortunately it’s that sort of waffle that makes you less sane than me. I honestly don’t eat enough meat to care, but I think it’s funny everyone suddenly cares about animal welfare because it’s cool. I could do away with meat it wouldn’t bother me. But people will eat meat all the time we’re the top of the food chain.
@@thatgirl81111 the root cause of the problem are the low IQ, lonely, reckless, bored to death, cruel, irresponsible, immoral, unethical, irrational NPCs who force endless numbers of victims and perpetrators into existence via breeding like absolute total unconscious wild animals/beast. It is really that simple.... really.,.,.
@@thatgirl81111 im vegan because of the respect i have for others or atleast strive to have. im sure theres times where i could of been more respectful in my life.
David was the victor. 1. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian, I eat meat. 2. I still like Charlie more as he is extremely entertaining. 3. David compiled his arguments better, was better spoken/more concise. 4. Charlie's entire debate revolved around a kind of teenage existentialism, making everything about philosophy and mainstream science.
the root cause of the problem are the low IQ, lonely, reckless, bored to death, cruel, irresponsible, immoral, unethical, irrational NPCs who force endless numbers of victims and perpetrators into existence via breeding like absolute total unconscious wild animals/beast. It is really that simple.... really.,..
@jefferson3231 That's really interesting. I guess I didn't see it as a 'win/loose' competition, but seeing as you did and you think David won, do any of his points make you think at all about why you aren't vegan?
@TuftyVFTA I didn't necessarily see it as a win/lose competition either. If you check the video's title, Charlie literally asks us 'who was the victor?'. And no, despite Dave making excellent points, some very true and thought-provoking I shan't be becoming vegan.
@TuftyVFTA sorry, RUclips hides your comment as I respond, I did think about why I'm not vegan, maybe I'll think more about it at some point but at this present time I'm not about to venture down that road as have various other life issues occurring.
@@JeffJeffers0nThat's a fair enough point about the competition thing. My apologies, I'd not seen that. But you said "despite Dave making excellent points, some very true and thought-provoking I shan't be becoming vegan" Do you feel that someone is trying to force you to do something you don't yourself feel is rational and completely acceptable? A lot of the time recently I hate the word 'Vegan' ! It really irritates me. Mainly because of the way the word has been distorted and misused to mean completely different things to it's original intent. There are so many people - I'm sure you are one of them - who are lovely caring and compassionate, who fully understand that all conscious beings experience pain and suffering both physical and emotional, yet they have - *exactly as I had for many many years* - been parentally, culturally and socially programmed to sever the connection between that knowledge and the simple fact that intelligent, conscious, aware and feeling animals need to be exploited, commodified and brutally killed for no other reason than we like the taste of their dead flesh and their bodily fluids. And all this is absolutely unnecessary. No one is saying "Stop in your tracks, spit out that pork pie, exchange it for lettuce, do it right now!" All vegans like David and myself are attempting to do is to ask you to look into it a bit further and question your own morals to see if they tie in with your daily actions. If you love animals, and you hate needless animal cruelty, and you choose to live your life abiding by those moral beliefs, then at some point you won't feel able to continue paying for others to exploit and commodify other sentient beings for your daily taste pleasure. You'll make the connection and you'll discover there's a whole world of plant based food that's every bit as delicious and nourishing, and you'll be living with a clearer conscience knowing you're no longer personally responsible for those 6 month old lambs or pigs being brutally slaughtered, or those cows having their calves taken away from them 5 or 6 years on the trot until at that age *(5 or 6, they'd live to around 20-25 naturally)* they are slaughtered for the meat industry.
Yeah, no shit. Being vegan doesn't harm other people, and eating meat does. "He's trying to turn you into a feminist, but you're not trying to make him beat his wife." "He's trying to turn you into an abolitionist, but you're not trying to make him own slaves." Same fucking thing!!
Great debate and conversation. Nice to see two fully grown men discussing something without arguing, throwing their dummies out the pram better than any mainstream TV
one thing i found interesting while researching health benefits of plant based diets for my father with kidney disease (i still eat meat personally about once a week) is scientific studies that show 'Animal protein increases the risk for hyperfiltration, albuminuria, and kidney failure. Vegetable protein consumption provide kidney and cardiovascular protection. Enhanced insulin sensitivity mediates the beneficial effect of plant-based diets.' another study by Dr Greger showed that animal protein puts strain on the kidneys where as planted based protein (beans/nuts/certain veggies etc) has hardly any strain at all and infact has benefits to kidney function. nice to see 2 gentlemen peacefully discussing their thoughts and ideas :)
Indeed, with his teenage existentialist hot takes it could be an instant hit. Is the universe infinite, isn't it? It's a paradoxical void, whilst infinity can only exist within the the physical world it should therefore also exist on a metaphysical level, like being a wave and a particle at the same time. Let's not forget about the Fibonacci Seqence, how can a number go into infinity, as numbers and mathematics are a man made concept? Does this mean man is God? Man evolved from apes, apes evolved from protozoa, does this mean God doesn't exist, but then how can creation occur without a creator? ...Sounds like a great podcast.
I eat meat, I like it… vegans, I respect your choice… but but but… why vegan BACON, why vegan SAUSAGE roll… why would you be associated with meat names??? Narks me somewhat!
YOU CAN NOT OBTAIN ALL THE NUTRITIONAL ASPECTS OF MEAT FROM A NON ANIMAL SOURCE. This is the main point anyone needs to know here other than the fact that animals will do far worse things to each other like the way some predators will eat a baby elephant from the fleshy anus first and up from there while it screams in agony for hours and hours. Most animals die from horrendous conditions, often bitten/pecked/ripped apart to death or they die from starvation or dehydration which are also terrible ways to die. If I were ever born again as an animal that would be eaten by anything, I'd much much prefer to be quickly shot in the head and disappear from this planet in a matter of seconds.
I'm a farmer. I can 100% say to create corn, maze, sugar beat over 1 70 acer plot I would posion every fly bee wasp snail slug frog beatles mice rats birds foxes just by spraying the field once I will have to do this 2 more times through this crop. Its just how it is. If you want cearel or sugar in your coffee this must happen. Why we do this is so humans can survive with food and luxury like cakes and so on. But either way if you eat meat or plants animals are still killed.
@Charles Veitch @David Ramms The one thing these two missed out on discussing was that some of the world's top sports people have found that when they converted to a plant based diet they had more energy and recovered faster, became stronger and were less lethargic to name just a few benefits, ie they had so many physical and mental benefits from a plant based diet they wont return to meat.. it was so beneficial to their health and that transitioned to many mental and performance benefits in their sport and home life.. why can't we take a look into this aspect and emulate their food intake for our own benefit? Am not a vegan but this did peak my interest in the plant based diet side of the equation, it made me think hmm maybe there's more to this than the mainstream carnivore/vegans would have us believe.. I think both sides have misinformation, so irrespective of the killing and suffering etc if its better for us as a human and as a species (only when done the right way tho) then why not?
Scientists have not agreed the universe is 26.7 billion years old, one scientist has said it is. Most have questioned the science behind it and called it nonsense
I have got no problems with people who want to slowly die with malnourishment, each to their own but don't use the animal cruelty card as it is very flawed when you consider how much of the animal kingdom suffers for the growth of crops through pesticides, habitat loss etc etc. So don't preach ! You do what you do and I will continue to eat meat just as those ancestors of the last 2 million or so years did. All animals stick to their species appropriate diet.
The reason you are in harmony with earth by eating any of its flora or fauna, is because you yourself will be food one day, for something or someone else. We all go back to the soil and feed the primary producers in the end. The point is to reduce suffering, tread lightly on the earth and take only what you need. Obviously the real enemy here is profit driven industry, which couldn't care less about morals and equality, not just people who eat meat. Maybe we should introduce a rule which says, if you want to eat meat you have to catch it yourself. Nice to see you bang on point and in control of yourself, Charlie. Great discussion guys, nice Vegan perspectives aswell, not suffocating, very open minded🙏
I'm at the start of the video, I remember this lad from when Charlie was him on the street, he seems like a decent enough lad, for a vegan. I hope this doesn't descend into daftness
The big difference between these youtubers is that Charlie isn't trying to convince/convert David into following his "ideology," David certainly was, and he just wouldn't take no for an answer. Fantastic debating skills by Charlie versus a well sequenced and rehearsed script that was followed by David. A very similar tactic that the Church use to tempt people into their religion. Don't shoot me, it's just my opinion.
@ritzy9635 There had to be one leftie loser, that couldn't help themselves. Was there even a "winner"? Dave didn't "win" for sure, as Charlie is still a meat eater. You fool.
Consider the millions and millions of chickens consumed every day in UK. Ot is not possible for all those to be producrd without using a factory farming method. Ie thousands of birds confined to huge sheds barely able to move or see the light of day.
I really enjoyed watching this great watch I would love to see it done again. If you do another ask about plants and what he thinks plants feel etc. we know trees and plants react to birds the chirpings of them opens up the cells so there is some symbiotic connection. He really wanted you to convert I agree with a lot of what he said but like you Charlie I just don't think it will change anything. Also what does he think will happen to all the animals if people stop eating meat? does he think they will go back to the wild? or will it be more likely they are all just killed anyway and not bred in the first place. Again great watch
A rather great debate, and I appreciate the individual view points, although it is of course a little disappointing that Charlie does not follow his own rationale. It really takes nothing to not harm innocent animals.
I think in terms of movement of energy toward more complex forms of consciousness. We eat less complex forms of energy to create more complex ones. On a human experience level it's tempting to want to eliminate all suffering, but if you did it, what kind of world would we have? To me, utopia seems out of balance with nature. What if suffering is necessary to the collective conscious experience? Death is not the end of energy, perhaps it's not as important to the universe as our individual instinctive fears of it would indicate. If you're lucky to be a complex conscious entity with minimal suffering in your life, what's important is what you do with that privilege.
If you were in a plane crash on a remote island and there was no food except a pack of wild boar, you have a radio they tell you it’s 3 weeks till rescue, do you eat the pigs and survive or do say I’m vegan and lie down and die? I’d live.
but it was controlled demo. thats not how damaged buildings fall bro. they would fall over not freefall speed onto themselves. you're ignoring a lot of evidence actually to all the demolition charge stuff and even DEW weapon evidence. but ok then.
People that use the word "bro" and can't use the English language properly like you've displayed, are the only people that believe this shite. Put energy into something useful and stop wasting time.
Anyone who's cruel to animals should be jailed. But anyone who thinks fish and chickens are off the menu are nuts imo. But i suppose the more vegans the less demand for cow's etc, hopefully improving animal welfare.
I enjoyed watching this debate . I myself do eat meat and I would like to ask a hypothetical question to . It may seem like a daft question . If tomorrow the government said right we are going to be vegan . What would happen ? Where would all the animals go . Would those of you that are vegans take these animals ?
Hypothetically, if this did happen: Sure a lot of us would try help give shelter as much as possible but to be vegan is only to not actively contribute to harming others and taking responsibility for your own impact. What you are describing is one step further: 'saving'. We can't save everybody, but we (all people who have the power to) should try (like activists of all sorts do). Fortunately (and unfortunately), that isn't going to happen. And by the time something similar to this gradually happens the number of these poor individuals will have decreased exponentially, through the halting of the artificial breeding and the usual execution ordered via consumers drastically lowered demand, that the ones who are left will comfortably fit into sanctuaries which will be well supported by that point. Why do you ask? And do you have any more questions possibly? :) (There are no daft questions btw)
Hypothetically, if the government said that, they would cease allowing all farmers to forcibly impregnate animals. Sadly, they would likely let all the currently suffering ones to be sent to their death although there are many sanctuaries as well as individuals that would happily take in as many as they were able to. Being that these newly cared for beings would not be forcibly impregnated, their numbers would naturally drop, so we luckily have no fear that we would suddenly be over-run with them.
@alasdairmcintosh6323 Do you really think most vegans aren't like David? The vast majority of vegans aren't public activists and don't spend their time trying to get others to see what horrors they are paying for by not being vegan. David does it in a respectful way. Sure there are some animal rights activists who are incredibly 'in your face'. But they're in a minority. The thing is they make the most noise and they flood the media. I think you maybe have a biased opinion of the average vegan because of this.
But, this is an unreasonable expectation, which David made abundantly clear, that activism takes different forms and shapes based on the activist. We do not expect all non-vegans to be the same, it can't be then that vegans must be the same, not?. But, a common argument all vegans make is that animals should not suffer arbitrarily when, in the modern world, we can choose something else that causes less suffering them.
@@neverliveevil6113 I'm not sure what you mean by "triggered and all up in his emotions", but if you mean he's passionate about the needless exploitation, commodification and abuse of other sentient beings, then sure he definitely is, and that reason is exactly *WHY* he's talking with Charlie. If you passionately care about something that's horrendous abuse and exploitation, you don't just raise an eyebrow and tut! Sure you do your best to stay civil and respectful - and David does that - but you also show your distress and frustration that this disgusting morally abhorrent way of treating other sentient beings is tolerated at all by anyone, let alone 99% of people.
@@TuftyVFTA I was talking about the meatflake saying "this makes me wantnto go buy more meat and eggs" being triggered and all up in his emotions. I agree with you. David did an excellent job.
Charles' expression of what the Judeo-Christian God is like @40 minutes, is preciesly NOT what the Judeo-Christian tradition says. What you articulated Veitch (or rather, ejaculated), was a vision/view of god or the gods that people have used and invented to fill the gap left by the Creator God when they abandoned Him. In old money, it's called idolatry. it's not rocket science mate.
Hi all! Really enjoyed this discussion, I was vegan for 4 years and the vegans wil say “I didn’t do it right” and “you weren’t a proper vegan” but I sincerely was. A few points I’d like to make. Here’s a list of nutrients you can’t get from plants… heme iron, DHA, carnosine, B12, creatine, D3 and taurine. Also I do believe that humans are just animals that eat other animals as disgusting as it sounds we need meat to thrive… My third point is environmentally if you nip to your local farm it saves the planet as we’re not shipping in avocados and other such vegan items from all over the world. My fourth point is animals suffer and die in farming plants. And my fifth point was as a vegan I was depressed, anxious, I was aging badly, nasal labial folds had deepened, greyish/yellowish complexion.. I was tired iron, b12 and d3 deficient even when taking floradix on the daily!! Charlie you’re right veganism is a cult that’s why they bully you when you question it or try to leave it.. I do respect this guy for keeping calm and listening to your point… I definitely think vegans are good people and are doing veganism because they care… it can make you very bitter and twisted though, you can wrap your entire identity in it.. Glad I saw the light again and am eating local farm meat.
If you are vegan there is no need for lab grown meat ( which they havn't acheived yet anyway) why do you want to believe you are eating meat. All you need are beans, legumes, and Tofu, people world wide live on food like that and many of the poorest eat just rice and vegetables and live long lives.
We already understand what happens in the meat industry is not good, most people are in favour of better conditions for the animals. The issue is, the only power you have to do anything about that is to vote with your wallet. If you want better conditions, vote for it, don't just keep supporting the current conditions. So next time you are in the supermarket, start small and pick up some vegan butter, it's identical enough to not care, and cheaper and tastier than a lot of dairy ones anyway, then when you realise that vegan food is not scary, buy something else. Consider it an act of charity, putting money in the places that makes the world a better place instead of paying people to create animals to suffer their whole life.
I'm a son of a butcher slaughter man, later farming beef cattle. I wonder what would happen to specifically food animals if we suddenly all went vegan?
Suddenly all vegan won't happen so it's not a point that ever needs to be addressed unless you think an authoritarian government is planning to implement it overnight.
Supply and demand. It’s never going to happen over night. Numbers dwindle down slowly over time as demand decreases. Either way, the world is absolutely fucked.
Charlie is wrong about the fact we don't eat certain animals because we deem them to have 'sentience' or 'second order thoughts', then he gives the example of 'mans best friend' (canine), and also mentions elephants and dolphins. However pigs are every bit as intelligent as dogs, and who's to say cows aren't as well? Also certain birds have been found to have quite sophisticated levels of intelligence even exhibiting problem solving capabilities, so chickens may well also exhibit intelligence, I'm sure if you asked someone that keeps chickens they will tell you they all have unique personalities. So while I am largely in favour of Charlies arguments and indeed am not vegan myself, I don't agree with this line of logic. It has nothing to do with one animals 'sentience' (largely a subjective interpretation at best) over another animals sentience as to whether they are eligible for consumption by humans. I find that argument untenable. Also as he alluded to one culture or society will eat certain animals arbitrarily that another culture or society finds wholly distasteful or offensive. This is just a sociocultural phenomenon and should not be confused with the philosophical question of whether we should or should not consume animals. For me the problem with the meat industry is very much a technical one, in that it's the way animals are bred and cultivated en masse purely for the purpose of slaughter both for profiteering purposes and also to feed a growing population that is the real issue, rather than simply the fact we eat them. Animals routinely hunt each other and we have hunted all through our existence.
Your comment started so well and continued well through the middle. Shame you ended it with an appeal to nature and an appeal to tradition. Based on the level of logical sophistication and knowledge of animal cognition and sentience contained in the rest of your comment I was not expecting two logical fallacies to be it's conclusion 😒
My point is the real problem is one of mass agriculture and lack of proper regulation other than very arbitrary regulation that can be easily circumvented for increased profits@@neverliveevil6113 - That isn't a logical fallacy
@@notrecyborg5492 Depends. What is your definition of "vegan"? Anyway, whether I am "vegan" or not is entirley irrelevant to the fact of your employment of fallacious reasoning at the end of your otherwise well thought out and well articulated comment.
@neverliveevil6113 My definition of vegan is the normal definition of vegan (someone that abstains from animals and animal products usually because they disagree with the ethos of killing animals for food when there are other options available for survival), and you're definitely a vegan. Lol
Oh look, it's a plants rights activist. Funny how they always seem to pop up whenever animal rights are mentioned. Let's pretend you actually give a flying fuck about the "feelings of plants." I know you don't, but let's just see where that line of reasoning goes. Raising livestock requires feeding them a tremendous amount of plants. It takes many many more times as many plants for you to eat meat as it would for you to just eat plants. SO, fucking BRANIAC, even a hard core plants rights activist WOULD STILL BE FUCKING VEGAN.
This was insufferable. I appreciate the good will from Charlie, but this was zealoutrous waffle from a person who claims moral superiority, because of his frankly openly religious beliefs about the anthropomorphic nature of animals. The remarks he made at the end were very telling; about how a converted Charlie would be a boon for the religion of veganism. The goal was always to establish a groundwork of misgiven rules that aligned with his narrow interpretation of morality, and then to have Charlie placate to each point, as though leading the lamb to the slaughter, for then to dismember him and take his balls as a trophy to vaganism. Very unscrupulous, and wreaking of religious and cult-like indoctrination. In simple terms, for most people, the venn diagram of eating meat and love for animals does not meet so completely that one engulfs and extinguishes the other. So regardless of percieved harm, they will continue along the all too natural path of eating readily available meat.
I've made quite a few 'veganesque' replies to some of the responses here, But something I've not done and should have, is to say how much respect I have for you Charlie for not just having this debate, but for the way you did it. You show some very strong human decency and the willingness to *actively* listen to what others are saying and take it on board. Big respect for that man. I feel sure you'll do more research of your own and OK, you'll come to your own conclusions, but I suspect you'll not - like most others do - just go by hearsay and propaganda, you'll find the facts - disgusting as they are - and let them guide you. Top man Charlie!
I like you Charlie - you & I, share a lot of the same thoughts, opinions and principles Plus you're funny, smart and impressive in your ability to voice a thought publicly without fear of judgement . . . . . *BUT* I've ALWAYS wondered why you carry such a strong dislike of passionate vegans I'm a vegan since 2015 (and vegetation since 1989) and i would have thought you'd be rather more supportive of such a moral , emotive cause - but you're not, and it always baffles me Its like uneducated people, when asked, "Why do you eat meat", and they reply "Cause it tastes good" . . . . . It seems so weak and comedic, an answer Anyway - enjoyed the Video 🙂
Hello David Ramms, thank you for your efforts. You're right you've changed my mind today I was considering going Vegan for a while now but after seeing your skinny arms ive decided to eat more high protein meat. Wish you well and enjoy the Soy!
I don't think there is anything to debate the fact is all creatures are omnivores even Lions eat grass some times I remember watching a video of a cow chomping through grass and there was an injured baby bird in the way it just gobbled it up. Tame big cats in zoos will happily munch on fruit. The reason in the wild they eat meat is cos its all there is to get protein. Cows eat grass as they are to big and clumsy to be catch prey. Think of mad cows disease cows were fed ground up bone meal from other cows they happily ate it. Debate is over before it begins, eat what you can get.
Charlie missed the point that the vegan doesn't care about those animals lives at all. He would rather they never existed as all those animals would never be born to have a nice life in the fields with minimal worry of predators.
Yep, and they generally believe the in the global warming heating nonsense without any critical thinking, and have 0 thought for the health of quality of life for the next generation, infact it seems like they'd largly be happy just relying on new Engineers and Dr's from Africa.
I'd rather not exist at all if the alternative was to be born into animal agriculture. That's the whole point. We breed them into existence and subject them to pure horror! Not bringing an animal into existence isn't cruelty, whereas bringing them into existence then slaughtering them, is cruelty.
Born by being forcibly brought into a captive existence to be eventually killed. If we did that to humans wouldn't you be horrified? Would it matter how well the humans were looked after while they were in slavery and captivity before we marched them *AS YOUNG HEALTHY ADOLESCENTS* into slaughter houses to have their throats cut?
There are wild bison and buffalo, red jungle fowl, wild boar, and wild goats that we can look after and protect. ALL the animals we raise for food are not wild animals they have been genetically manipulated by many years of selective breeding to produce more flesh, more milk, more eggs etc. They are ALL 'Frankenstein monsters' they need to be allowed to die out completely to end this horrendous needless exploitation and commodification of sentient beings.
There are a few people who do keep animals for food production in a nice way... being one of them... and knowing that there is no good nutrition in vegan diet if you want healthy children then I pitty you and your narrow view of things. @@LC-gs6qv
Very nice talk. I can't eat meat anymore. But I eat everything else animal. Its just convenient and tasty, but absolutely cruel ugly and immoral. Vegan argument is like atheism argument, simply indestructible. Who is Charlie's vegan friend they spoke about? Everything is ok guy? What a legend. A bit overweight doesn't seem the type. I don't want you to go vegan, I want you to know its ok either way, but its probably worthwhile to be free from causing unnecessary harm to inocent animals. Maybe tomorrow. Keep it real, take care
I'm an omnivore, but I don't have any problem with people who choose veganism. What I do have a problem with, is the campaigners that say everyone has to be vegan. No I don't. Nobody has to be anything. We should all be free to make our personal choices.
"We should all be free to make our personal choices" Yes, so why do you deny animals their freedom of choice? That's exactly what vegans' actions show. They are opposed to the restriction of anyone's choice, providing that choice doesn't make a victim out someone else. Non vegans are the only ones taking away the freedom of choice from others, by imprisoning, forcibly impregnating, killing and eating them.
@@shanegallagher961 What are you on about Shane? I'm not a slave owner. Slavery is illegal, and animals cannot be slaves, because they are not human. Are you saying that pet owners are slave owners? Are you planning to give animals voting rights?
Message for David and Charlie I was previously on the fence and ill admit I was lazy about making that new choice this video has pushed me further than anything ever has before the points made are spot on for both sides minus the negative comments I'll be making the change and you guys should both feel great for helping make that possible Charlie was called a lot of istic words in the chat that are over used and fit a very narrowminded narrative We can disagree, don't be stupid about stuff that matters
Nothing wrong with vegetables, they taste nice. But so does beef. Unfortunately there's too many people to be able to treat every cow with care before and up to slaughter. So if more people turned vegan the better treatment of cattle might be more cost effective so that can only be a good thing . I dunno. I like burgers.
I'm 6ft 2in with a slim build, vegan for over 13 years, a few months back I started eating a high protein high calorie diet and started training heavy 5 times a week at the gym, I went from 72kg to 84kg in no time Just use Cronometer to make sure you're hitting your nutrition goals and make sure you remember to eat, that's the main problem with us skinnier guys, we don't eat enough!
I like David I like his personality and spirit I like his points of view, he’s definitely not like a lot of vegans I know, he definitely doesn’t seem like a cult type like the usual vegans you see on market street, and he right when he says your spending more money on meat that you can trace back to where it was from but there definitely killed the same way, take know notice of these animals that are supposed to have had a great life cos you know deep down that bullshit doesn’t happen, David talks sense I like the guy, this debate is great and I can see both sides of the debate
I am a huge fan of Charlie but they are both missing the point. They are only really talking about this country and maybe Europe and the USA but there is no way in hell the rest of the world will go for this shit. Most countries eat meat and will never give it up
Explain to me how a vegan can easily live a vegan lifestyle, without meat eaters sourcing, producing, farming, transporting and importing from all over the world, for their 'vegan diet'? And not simply passed on the killing responsibility to someone else, no better than they accuse others of by buying supermarket meat... Veganism is a benefit of an oversupply of food resources, created by meat, and meat eaters not instead eating and consuming vast amounts of the other substitutes... Logic. The cost on the environments and the life therein, to supply a single vegan with a full substantial and nutritional diet, let alone their family or dependents also... This is not sustainability, if everyone does it - ergo it is a luxury afforded to those so privileged enough to enjoy it, afforded to them by those who do not, and eat nutrition packed meat instead. Furthermore, the meat eater understands and appreciates their impact on the respective environments, whereas the vegan is in a state of privileged denial of their own impacts in their smug utopian fallaciousness. Would vegans oppose rat and mice infestations in their food stores, being exterminated? Mice and rats are more intelligent than cows and chickens. The extermination is also usually much more brutal; causes much more suffering. How is a small animal going to 'see a combine harvester' coming, when it can't see over the crop? What kind of denial logic is this! Much more than 10 animals, obviously... none of them can see it coming, little animals in a field have no idea what is coming. They are attracted to live there because it is food! Entice many human onto a runway disguised as what they believe is billions of dollars (equivalent value to a mouse, as a food crop) then effectively blindfold them from the danger... Then, when they are unable to run away from a jumbo jet simply by the vibration and noise of it, it was their fault for not being able to, and they are simply collateral damage. Simply hypocrisy and favouritism. The overpowering noise and vibration, much more than anything natural, overpowers senses and causes reactionary panic. Some fairytale lalaland fantasy about most of them avoiding it.. the opposite for many. And remember, unlike a road, and the fallacious analogy provided, an animal knows the danger and only crosses a road under duress... it is not actively enticed to do so, with mountains of food in the middle! Ridiculous! One can presume the number of road kills would occur, if one placed food all the way along the middle line for many miles... absurdity levels of fallacious denial; they know they entice and kill... they have the same complicit intent they accuse of having... hypocrisy.
The issue I have with vegans argument, is plants are alive as well, and plants do feel and some release chemicals to tell other plants there being eaten, and some plants eat bugs, so in my mind this argument about feeling, it's simply the circle of life, you need to eat to live, but meat is a privilege and should not be wasted. And animals should be free range in there natural environment and meat should be more of a special occasion like it was in the past. It's the waste that annoys me, don't want to see waste of plants or meat, both have a climate impact.
Oh look, it's a plants rights activist. Funny how they always seem to pop up whenever animal rights are mentioned. Raising livestock requires feeding them a tremendous amount of plants. It takes many many more times as many plants for you to eat meat as it would for you to just eat plants. SO, fucking BRANIAC, even a hard core plants rights activist WOULD STILL BE FUCKING VEGAN.
It easy to make this mistake of looking at person and then assuming they eat healthy and is healthy or exercise well .....Yes those things can be indication of health ....But it can also be very misleading .....This is why when fit healthy looking people pass away it shocking to us .....but again what you see is not all of the truth .......Ive seen some terrible eating habit and sleeping patters and lack of exercise and smoke but they still manage to look fit and healthy and active .......An example would be some builders ....fit strong as hell ...but dont sleep right drink and smoke and eat mostly meat ...there not healthy .....Healthy can be an illusion ...
I knew instantly as soon as you said the natural philosophy argument his first point would be “oh so you’re in favour of rape because it happens naturally in the animal kingdom” and this argument is really weak if you think about it for more than 5 seconds. 1. Rape is a human idea, rape as we know it does not occur in the animal kingdom, and you can look at animals where it looks like they’re being raped to reproduce but you’re looking at an animal that has evolved over generations to reproduce in such a way and seeing it through a human lens of “oh this animal is trying to escape therefore rape”. Animals do not understand or cannot fathom the concept of rape as humans imagine in. Seeing as they’re driven by instinct. 2. To bite the bullet the best answer is “well, if Humans had evolved in such a way that the main way we reproduce was through forced sex by the male onto a female then yes I would support it. And before you call me evil. You too would support it as you would be human and it being a concept of “rape” would be foreign to you, but other forms of sexual intercourse such as the way we currently do it would perhaps be viewed in a rapey way as it would be absolutely foreign to us in that situation. And this is exactly how animals and the animals kingdom view the act of reproduction. It may look like rape to us but to them it’s as natural as eating or shitting.” Edit Charles laid this argument out really well.
@@TheSadButMadLad Yes. Its a good argument to use because it uses what seperates us from alot of the animal kingdom. Empathy. Its hard to argue against it because you look at the animal or hear the animal suffering you immediatly empathise with its situation. Making it really hard to defend. Its an argument he tries using against Charles when he asks why he rescues small animals. The answer is Empathy. Our Mirror neurons that we evolved allow us to recognize ourselves in every other creature. But if you look at the Animal Kingdom we've found mirror neurons in only 3 species. Humans, Macaques and Songbirds. Albeit this may be lack of looking and Id be willing to bet Dolphins, Elephants, dogs ect may contain them. We dont have proof but its possible. But once you understand that then this argument can be turned on its head. "Would other animals do what Humans do? Would a cow treat humans the same way? Could a cow empathise with another creatures suffering. You speak of how chickens will cannibalise each other when they die. Thats not an empathetic creature. Humans imprisoned wouldnt eat each other if given food daily." Or when asked why humans are seperate from animals, its Sentience, empathy and intelligence. Sentience being the ability to be aware. Empathy being our ability to understand suffering of life and intelligence to apply these things onto our environment to adapt our environment to ourselves rather than adapting ourselves to our environment. I get really annoyed at Vegans not because they're bad people. But because they fail to see the reason they're vegan is the reason animals are different. They can empathise and it overpowers them. They are some of the most empathetic people and if applied correctly they could do amazing things for people. They would make the best social workers, doctors, psychologists. if they only understood that as humans they should put their own species first.
@@MrDinokillawe can reproduce through consent so no need for forced rape, animals can't reproduce through consent so either they do what they do or go extinct, so it's a woefully bad argument from vegans
@@MrDinokilla Well said again. Really solidifies some vague concepts that I have about vegans/vegetarians into a nice easily understandable format. Like you, I don't see vegans as bad people, just misguided. Because they are so empathetic as you say, they are also easily led. And "leaders" see them as subjects to use to boost their own egos. Which is the what occurs in cults. And to a certain degree religions too. Can I throw a curve ball? And apologies about the word Hitler. He was a vegan late in life, partly due to doctors setting out his diet. He also like pet animals. So was he empathetic. In which case why all the suffering by the Jews. Or could he block it out because he didn't see it personally. Out of sight. Out of mind. Or was he just a psychopath who used anything to gain an upperhand.
@@TheSadButMadLad Yeah, the the ability to coerce people will high empathy into doing what you want has been a staple in cults and any organization since forever. It is unfortunate as all it takes is just realising the bad feeling you get and the need to repent for it by doing whatever is told of you is manipulation. And just taking a step back can help you see things in a greater light. And nah, never apologise. Love curve balls. So as someone who has unfortunately never met the guy I cannot trully say if he had high empathy. We know he loved animals, in particular dogs. But loving dogs isn’t a sign of high empathy but more so the biological realities of being man’s best friend. That’s why people, who don’t like dogs stand out so much because dogs helped us get where we are. But I’d say if he was empathetic then how he dealt with what was happening to the Jews is easy to understand. He didn’t view them as human. Which I’m not suprised at, Germany was undergoing a lot of turmoil and trouble. The Jews had tried the communist rebellion, owned most businesses, and if you believe in God, they killed Jesus. It’s not a hard leap to view them as non human and therefore our empathy is limited there. Or he was a psychopath who just didn’t care. But that’s too easy and explanation and by that reasoning we should have millions of Hitlers. No, to me it was the perfect conditions to create someone who could view other humans with such disdain as to not view them as human
'Husbanding and Gardening' is the Design of Survival for animals. In that regard, they take positions in the Design to accomplish basic processes in that effort: *Survival* The Design of those 'Processes' in humans is being 'Omnivores' for their 'Survival' as a species. Some people understand the chemistry of surviving as a human being, and can manage an exclusively vegetarian diet and survive. Great, but Pop goes the weasel,. and a coronal-mass-ejection occurs and electricity around the world ist kaput... Vegans will return to being 'Omnivores' and start chasing those weasels again...:)
I don't think anyone won. You came out pretty good in the debating managing to counter all of David's points. He had to fall back on some classic debate avoidance techniques. Between the two of you, you raised some interesting points and some worth thinking about. The interesting thing was reading the comments on the chat feed. The vegan/vegetarians were very closed minded. Saw some where the person said that they didn't know this Charlie guy but he must be a sociopath or some similar derogatory term. FiendPhoto and I did some attempts but it was a very busy chat so not easy.
Either way its about the the amount and quality of what your injesting. You can be vegan and be consuming absolute junk full of chemicles same with meat
I was vegan for 6 years, but physically / mentally unwell, couldn't physically eat enough to gain weight. Watching animals eat each other alive, helped me accept the nature of reality. It's horrible that animals must eat one another. Immensely cruel. The world is beautiful, though. Just.. is what it is. Animals, interconnected cannot exist without one another. Animals are the true gardeners of the planet. Watch nature programs. Animals suffer a profoundly agonising death. Minutes, hours and sometimes weeks to die. If animals didn't rip eachother to pieces, we wouldn't have a world to harvest crops. 🤷♂️ This beautiful world we experience couldn't exist without immense suffering. Vegans exist because, for whatever personal reason they cannot accept the nature of reality.
vegan man is moraly on point and wins the debate,we as humans chose to ignore the sentient suffering of the animals we eat.
The Animals would not exist if we didn't eat them
@@AL-PAKAYes & that would be preferable to the absolute nightmare that we forcibly breed them into.
The taste is worth it
@@GaryNewsom1 I used to say that too. Eventually like me, you might realise that you’ve trapped yourself in a hellish level of consciousness that brings you and your people suffering & strife while you remain completely unaware of that.
Hell is a Truth discovered too late.
Good luck on your journey Gary.
@@kanemclaren5991 unfortunately it’s that sort of waffle that makes you less sane than me.
I honestly don’t eat enough meat to care, but I think it’s funny everyone suddenly cares about animal welfare because it’s cool.
I could do away with meat it wouldn’t bother me. But people will eat meat all the time we’re the top of the food chain.
Charlie , you need to do more debates this is extremely interesting to hear your views.
David was on point on all the arguments. Can't fault his position on animals. Time to go vegan!
Glad we got more Charles Veitch and less Trolly Veitch this time mate!
Really enjoyed this in depth discussion, it's so good to have these frank talks without conflict
Charlie is the type of dude you bump into in a wetherspoons smoking area
I'm a vegan but I always respect individuals such as yourself who are willing to engage in respectful debate and dialogue.
Makes a refreshing change for a vegan to have respect for others 😊
@@thatgirl81111 the root cause of the problem are the low IQ, lonely, reckless, bored to death, cruel, irresponsible, immoral, unethical, irrational NPCs who force endless numbers of victims and perpetrators into existence via breeding like absolute total unconscious wild animals/beast. It is really that simple.... really.,.,.
I was once a non-vegan myself @@thatgirl81111
@@thatgirl81111 I think most vegans would argue that it's *because* they have respect for others that they're vegan... 😆
@@thatgirl81111 im vegan because of the respect i have for others or atleast strive to have. im sure theres times where i could of been more respectful in my life.
David was the victor.
1. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian, I eat meat.
2. I still like Charlie more as he is extremely entertaining.
3. David compiled his arguments better, was better spoken/more concise.
4. Charlie's entire debate revolved around a kind of teenage existentialism, making everything about philosophy and mainstream science.
the root cause of the problem are the low IQ, lonely, reckless, bored to death, cruel, irresponsible, immoral, unethical, irrational NPCs who force endless numbers of victims and perpetrators into existence via breeding like absolute total unconscious wild animals/beast. It is really that simple.... really.,..
@jefferson3231 That's really interesting.
I guess I didn't see it as a 'win/loose' competition, but seeing as you did and you think David won, do any of his points make you think at all about why you aren't vegan?
@TuftyVFTA I didn't necessarily see it as a win/lose competition either. If you check the video's title, Charlie literally asks us 'who was the victor?'. And no, despite Dave making excellent points, some very true and thought-provoking I shan't be becoming vegan.
@TuftyVFTA sorry, RUclips hides your comment as I respond, I did think about why I'm not vegan, maybe I'll think more about it at some point but at this present time I'm not about to venture down that road as have various other life issues occurring.
@@JeffJeffers0nThat's a fair enough point about the competition thing. My apologies, I'd not seen that.
But you said "despite Dave making excellent points, some very true and thought-provoking I shan't be becoming vegan"
Do you feel that someone is trying to force you to do something you don't yourself feel is rational and completely acceptable?
A lot of the time recently I hate the word 'Vegan' ! It really irritates me.
Mainly because of the way the word has been distorted and misused to mean completely different things to it's original intent.
There are so many people - I'm sure you are one of them - who are lovely caring and compassionate, who fully understand that all conscious beings experience pain and suffering both physical and emotional, yet they have - *exactly as I had for many many years* - been parentally, culturally and socially programmed to sever the connection between that knowledge and the simple fact that intelligent, conscious, aware and feeling animals need to be exploited, commodified and brutally killed for no other reason than we like the taste of their dead flesh and their bodily fluids. And all this is absolutely unnecessary.
No one is saying "Stop in your tracks, spit out that pork pie, exchange it for lettuce, do it right now!"
All vegans like David and myself are attempting to do is to ask you to look into it a bit further and question your own morals to see if they tie in with your daily actions.
If you love animals, and you hate needless animal cruelty, and you choose to live your life abiding by those moral beliefs, then at some point you won't feel able to continue paying for others to exploit and commodify other sentient beings for your daily taste pleasure. You'll make the connection and you'll discover there's a whole world of plant based food that's every bit as delicious and nourishing, and you'll be living with a clearer conscience knowing you're no longer personally responsible for those 6 month old lambs or pigs being brutally slaughtered, or those cows having their calves taken away from them 5 or 6 years on the trot until at that age *(5 or 6, they'd live to around 20-25 naturally)* they are slaughtered for the meat industry.
He's trying to turn you vegan but you're not trying to make him eat meat.
Yeah, no shit. Being vegan doesn't harm other people, and eating meat does.
"He's trying to turn you into a feminist, but you're not trying to make him beat his wife."
"He's trying to turn you into an abolitionist, but you're not trying to make him own slaves."
Same fucking thing!!
Same as you would try harder to stop someone to hurt people then the one that hirts them will try to make you
Great debate and conversation. Nice to see two fully grown men discussing something without arguing, throwing their dummies out the pram better than any mainstream TV
one thing i found interesting while researching health benefits of plant based diets for my father with kidney disease (i still eat meat personally about once a week) is scientific studies that show
'Animal protein increases the risk for hyperfiltration, albuminuria, and kidney failure. Vegetable protein consumption provide kidney and cardiovascular protection. Enhanced insulin sensitivity mediates the beneficial effect of plant-based diets.'
another study by Dr Greger showed that animal protein puts strain on the kidneys where as planted based protein (beans/nuts/certain veggies etc) has hardly any strain at all and infact has benefits to kidney function.
nice to see 2 gentlemen peacefully discussing their thoughts and ideas :)
David is a winner !
Jeez, Charlie you got owned.
Be true to your word, it’s your turn to go vegan
Good on the vegans for caring about what they eat and about animal welfare. How can that be a bad thing. Good on Charlie for caring about animals.
Great debate! You both did great,
Charlie Veitch is a human supremacist. Nothing great about that.
"to use a cow term, its a moo point" im still laughing at this in my head 9 days later
Charlie should start a podcast!
Indeed, with his teenage existentialist hot takes it could be an instant hit. Is the universe infinite, isn't it? It's a paradoxical void, whilst infinity can only exist within the the physical world it should therefore also exist on a metaphysical level, like being a wave and a particle at the same time. Let's not forget about the Fibonacci Seqence, how can a number go into infinity, as numbers and mathematics are a man made concept? Does this mean man is God? Man evolved from apes, apes evolved from protozoa, does this mean God doesn't exist, but then how can creation occur without a creator?
...Sounds like a great podcast.
I eat meat, I like it… vegans, I respect your choice… but but but… why vegan BACON, why vegan SAUSAGE roll… why would you be associated with meat names??? Narks me somewhat!
YOU CAN NOT OBTAIN ALL THE NUTRITIONAL ASPECTS OF MEAT FROM A NON ANIMAL SOURCE. This is the main point anyone needs to know here other than the fact that animals will do far worse things to each other like the way some predators will eat a baby elephant from the fleshy anus first and up from there while it screams in agony for hours and hours. Most animals die from horrendous conditions, often bitten/pecked/ripped apart to death or they die from starvation or dehydration which are also terrible ways to die. If I were ever born again as an animal that would be eaten by anything, I'd much much prefer to be quickly shot in the head and disappear from this planet in a matter of seconds.
A regular Charlie and David podcast would be absolutely fucking brilliant. Make it happen!
I'm a farmer. I can 100% say to create corn, maze, sugar beat over 1 70 acer plot I would posion every fly bee wasp snail slug frog beatles mice rats birds foxes just by spraying the field once I will have to do this 2 more times through this crop. Its just how it is. If you want cearel or sugar in your coffee this must happen. Why we do this is so humans can survive with food and luxury like cakes and so on. But either way if you eat meat or plants animals are still killed.
This is great content guys 👍
@Charles Veitch @David Ramms The one thing these two missed out on discussing was that some of the world's top sports people have found that when they converted to a plant based diet they had more energy and recovered faster, became stronger and were less lethargic to name just a few benefits, ie they had so many physical and mental benefits from a plant based diet they wont return to meat.. it was so beneficial to their health and that transitioned to many mental and performance benefits in their sport and home life.. why can't we take a look into this aspect and emulate their food intake for our own benefit?
Am not a vegan but this did peak my interest in the plant based diet side of the equation, it made me think hmm maybe there's more to this than the mainstream carnivore/vegans would have us believe.. I think both sides have misinformation, so irrespective of the killing and suffering etc if its better for us as a human and as a species (only when done the right way tho) then why not?
Obviously David nails it., Charlie will be reached in time.
charlie veitch, rant king 💪👑
Hello! I'm a Charlie Vietch subscriber & a Vegetarian ( mostly Vegan)! Nice1 for having game! (I also have a meat eating cat)
Fascinating debate. Well done guys 👍
Scientists have not agreed the universe is 26.7 billion years old, one scientist has said it is. Most have questioned the science behind it and called it nonsense
I have got no problems with people who want to slowly die with malnourishment, each to their own but don't use the animal cruelty card as it is very flawed when you consider how much of the animal kingdom suffers for the growth of crops through pesticides, habitat loss etc etc. So don't preach ! You do what you do and I will continue to eat meat just as those ancestors of the last 2 million or so years did. All animals stick to their species appropriate diet.
The reason you are in harmony with earth by eating any of its flora or fauna, is because you yourself will be food one day, for something or someone else. We all go back to the soil and feed the primary producers in the end. The point is to reduce suffering, tread lightly on the earth and take only what you need. Obviously the real enemy here is profit driven industry, which couldn't care less about morals and equality, not just people who eat meat. Maybe we should introduce a rule which says, if you want to eat meat you have to catch it yourself.
Nice to see you bang on point and in control of yourself, Charlie. Great discussion guys, nice Vegan perspectives aswell, not suffocating, very open minded🙏
I'm at the start of the video, I remember this lad from when Charlie was him on the street, he seems like a decent enough lad, for a vegan.
I hope this doesn't descend into daftness
I agree and this is the comment I would have made 😊
Excellent debate.
You are both in a hierarchy of knowledge.....the divides are simply down to intelligence based on knowledge....lol ❤
Nice work Charlie
The big difference between these youtubers is that Charlie isn't trying to convince/convert David into following his "ideology," David certainly was, and he just wouldn't take no for an answer.
Fantastic debating skills by Charlie versus a well sequenced and rehearsed script that was followed by David. A very similar tactic that the Church use to tempt people into their religion.
Don't shoot me, it's just my opinion.
👍
Vietch lost the debate, buddy. I'm not sure what you watched.
@ritzy9635 There had to be one leftie loser, that couldn't help themselves.
Was there even a "winner"? Dave didn't "win" for sure, as Charlie is still a meat eater. You fool.
Consider the millions and millions of chickens consumed every day in UK. Ot is not possible for all those to be producrd without using a factory farming method. Ie thousands of birds confined to huge sheds barely able to move or see the light of day.
Believes in Emptiness.. Trying my fucking hardest.... You fuckers keep getting in the way!
I really enjoyed watching this great watch I would love to see it done again. If you do another ask about plants and what he thinks plants feel etc. we know trees and plants react to birds the chirpings of them opens up the cells so there is some symbiotic connection. He really wanted you to convert I agree with a lot of what he said but like you Charlie I just don't think it will change anything.
Also what does he think will happen to all the animals if people stop eating meat? does he think they will go back to the wild? or will it be more likely they are all just killed anyway and not bred in the first place.
Again great watch
9:24 doesn't explain dustification, metal beams becoming dust mid air... or the fact that the building collapsed at free falling speed
Yeah that'd be the detonators planted a week before.
A rather great debate, and I appreciate the individual view points, although it is of course a little disappointing that Charlie does not follow his own rationale. It really takes nothing to not harm innocent animals.
David made this upload his own. Cool fella. And thanks Charlie for giving him a another voice all over the interweb.
I think in terms of movement of energy toward more complex forms of consciousness. We eat less complex forms of energy to create more complex ones.
On a human experience level it's tempting to want to eliminate all suffering, but if you did it, what kind of world would we have? To me, utopia seems out of balance with nature.
What if suffering is necessary to the collective conscious experience? Death is not the end of energy, perhaps it's not as important to the universe as our individual instinctive fears of it would indicate.
If you're lucky to be a complex conscious entity with minimal suffering in your life, what's important is what you do with that privilege.
If you were in a plane crash on a remote island and there was no food except a pack of wild boar, you have a radio they tell you it’s 3 weeks till rescue, do you eat the pigs and survive or do say I’m vegan and lie down and die? I’d live.
but it was controlled demo. thats not how damaged buildings fall bro. they would fall over not freefall speed onto themselves. you're ignoring a lot of evidence actually to all the demolition charge stuff and even DEW weapon evidence. but ok then.
People that use the word "bro" and can't use the English language properly like you've displayed, are the only people that believe this shite. Put energy into something useful and stop wasting time.
Anyone who's cruel to animals should be jailed. But anyone who thinks fish and chickens are off the menu are nuts imo. But i suppose the more vegans the less demand for cow's etc, hopefully improving animal welfare.
I enjoyed watching this debate . I myself do eat meat and I would like to ask a hypothetical question to . It may seem like a daft question . If tomorrow the government said right we are going to be vegan . What would happen ? Where would all the animals go . Would those of you that are vegans take these animals ?
Hypothetically, if this did happen: Sure a lot of us would try help give shelter as much as possible but to be vegan is only to not actively contribute to harming others and taking responsibility for your own impact. What you are describing is one step further: 'saving'. We can't save everybody, but we (all people who have the power to) should try (like activists of all sorts do). Fortunately (and unfortunately), that isn't going to happen.
And by the time something similar to this gradually happens the number of these poor individuals will have decreased exponentially, through the halting of the artificial breeding and the usual execution ordered via consumers drastically lowered demand, that the ones who are left will comfortably fit into sanctuaries which will be well supported by that point.
Why do you ask? And do you have any more questions possibly? :)
(There are no daft questions btw)
Hypothetically, if the government said that, they would cease allowing all farmers to forcibly impregnate animals. Sadly, they would likely let all the currently suffering ones to be sent to their death although there are many sanctuaries as well as individuals that would happily take in as many as they were able to. Being that these newly cared for beings would not be forcibly impregnated, their numbers would naturally drop, so we luckily have no fear that we would suddenly be over-run with them.
New style content 🤔, excellent Charlie 👍🏻
If only every vegan was like him good friendly debate
@alasdairmcintosh6323 Do you really think most vegans aren't like David?
The vast majority of vegans aren't public activists and don't spend their time trying to get others to see what horrors they are paying for by not being vegan.
David does it in a respectful way.
Sure there are some animal rights activists who are incredibly 'in your face'. But they're in a minority. The thing is they make the most noise and they flood the media.
I think you maybe have a biased opinion of the average vegan because of this.
But, this is an unreasonable expectation, which David made abundantly clear, that activism takes different forms and shapes based on the activist. We do not expect all non-vegans to be the same, it can't be then that vegans must be the same, not?. But, a common argument all vegans make is that animals should not suffer arbitrarily when, in the modern world, we can choose something else that causes less suffering them.
This dude makes me want to buy more meat and eggs. Imagine being convinced by this guy.
@@daveydavedave5457Yeah, but this guy's triggered and all up in his emotions so....
@@neverliveevil6113 I'm not sure what you mean by "triggered and all up in his emotions", but if you mean he's passionate about the needless exploitation, commodification and abuse of other sentient beings, then sure he definitely is, and that reason is exactly *WHY* he's talking with Charlie.
If you passionately care about something that's horrendous abuse and exploitation, you don't just raise an eyebrow and tut!
Sure you do your best to stay civil and respectful - and David does that - but you also show your distress and frustration that this disgusting morally abhorrent way of treating other sentient beings is tolerated at all by anyone, let alone 99% of people.
@@TuftyVFTA I was talking about the meatflake saying "this makes me wantnto go buy more meat and eggs" being triggered and all up in his emotions.
I agree with you. David did an excellent job.
@@neverliveevil6113 My apologies! I missed that. Forgive me.
@@TuftyVFTA Easily done. My comment was ambiguous and statistcally speaking it was more likely to be what you assumed it was, unfortunately.
Great debate, both showed respect for each other, but I think they agree to disagree, we need more colabs with them please.
Charles' expression of what the Judeo-Christian God is like @40 minutes, is preciesly NOT what the Judeo-Christian tradition says. What you articulated Veitch (or rather, ejaculated), was a vision/view of god or the gods that people have used and invented to fill the gap left by the Creator God when they abandoned Him. In old money, it's called idolatry. it's not rocket science mate.
Matey boy vegan reminded me of Cathy Newman "So what you're saying is..." Nice little debate though by two gentlemen.
Hi all! Really enjoyed this discussion,
I was vegan for 4 years and the vegans wil say “I didn’t do it right” and “you weren’t a proper vegan” but I sincerely was.
A few points I’d like to make.
Here’s a list of nutrients you can’t get from plants… heme iron, DHA, carnosine, B12, creatine, D3 and taurine.
Also I do believe that humans are just animals that eat other animals as disgusting as it sounds we need meat to thrive…
My third point is environmentally if you nip to your local farm it saves the planet as we’re not shipping in avocados and other such vegan items from all over the world.
My fourth point is animals suffer and die in farming plants.
And my fifth point was as a vegan I was depressed, anxious, I was aging badly, nasal labial folds had deepened, greyish/yellowish complexion.. I was tired iron, b12 and d3 deficient even when taking floradix on the daily!!
Charlie you’re right veganism is a cult that’s why they bully you when you question it or try to leave it..
I do respect this guy for keeping calm and listening to your point…
I definitely think vegans are good people and are doing veganism because they care… it can make you very bitter and twisted though, you can wrap your entire identity in it..
Glad I saw the light again and am eating local farm meat.
If you are vegan there is no need for lab grown meat ( which they havn't acheived yet anyway) why do you want to believe you are eating meat. All you need are beans, legumes, and Tofu, people world wide live on food like that and many of the poorest eat just rice and vegetables and live long lives.
We already understand what happens in the meat industry is not good, most people are in favour of better conditions for the animals. The issue is, the only power you have to do anything about that is to vote with your wallet. If you want better conditions, vote for it, don't just keep supporting the current conditions.
So next time you are in the supermarket, start small and pick up some vegan butter, it's identical enough to not care, and cheaper and tastier than a lot of dairy ones anyway, then when you realise that vegan food is not scary, buy something else. Consider it an act of charity, putting money in the places that makes the world a better place instead of paying people to create animals to suffer their whole life.
I love the smell of bacon in the morning. Smells like victory
Smell of dog over open fire is better.
Little bit chewy but similar to pork.
@@OurDearLeaderIs that really you ?. Hope your chilling out a little.
What breed of dog?
I'm a meat eater and want to report you.
Your not from Belgium are you ?
They eat horses there.
@@movarvo1217 Any breed.
Dog is dog. Just like pig is pig.
Breed make no difference to tasty treat.
Edit..and it much more cheaper than piggy.
*chink detected*
I'm a son of a butcher slaughter man, later farming beef cattle. I wonder what would happen to specifically food animals if we suddenly all went vegan?
Suddenly all vegan won't happen so it's not a point that ever needs to be addressed unless you think an authoritarian government is planning to implement it overnight.
Supply and demand. It’s never going to happen over night. Numbers dwindle down slowly over time as demand decreases. Either way, the world is absolutely fucked.
You already know what happens to food animals when people don't go vegan. It's pretty fucking bad. In fact, it's literally atrocity.
Disregard vegetables, acquire steaks...
Charlie is wrong about the fact we don't eat certain animals because we deem them to have 'sentience' or 'second order thoughts', then he gives the example of 'mans best friend' (canine), and also mentions elephants and dolphins. However pigs are every bit as intelligent as dogs, and who's to say cows aren't as well? Also certain birds have been found to have quite sophisticated levels of intelligence even exhibiting problem solving capabilities, so chickens may well also exhibit intelligence, I'm sure if you asked someone that keeps chickens they will tell you they all have unique personalities. So while I am largely in favour of Charlies arguments and indeed am not vegan myself, I don't agree with this line of logic. It has nothing to do with one animals 'sentience' (largely a subjective interpretation at best) over another animals sentience as to whether they are eligible for consumption by humans. I find that argument untenable. Also as he alluded to one culture or society will eat certain animals arbitrarily that another culture or society finds wholly distasteful or offensive. This is just a sociocultural phenomenon and should not be confused with the philosophical question of whether we should or should not consume animals. For me the problem with the meat industry is very much a technical one, in that it's the way animals are bred and cultivated en masse purely for the purpose of slaughter both for profiteering purposes and also to feed a growing population that is the real issue, rather than simply the fact we eat them. Animals routinely hunt each other and we have hunted all through our existence.
Your comment started so well and continued well through the middle.
Shame you ended it with an appeal to nature and an appeal to tradition.
Based on the level of logical sophistication and knowledge of animal cognition and sentience contained in the rest of your comment I was not expecting two logical fallacies to be it's conclusion 😒
@@neverliveevil6113 Vegan I take it?
My point is the real problem is one of mass agriculture and lack of proper regulation other than very arbitrary regulation that can be easily circumvented for increased profits@@neverliveevil6113 - That isn't a logical fallacy
@@notrecyborg5492 Depends. What is your definition of "vegan"?
Anyway, whether I am "vegan" or not is entirley irrelevant to the fact of your employment of fallacious reasoning at the end of your otherwise well thought out and well articulated comment.
@neverliveevil6113 My definition of vegan is the normal definition of vegan (someone that abstains from animals and animal products usually because they disagree with the ethos of killing animals for food when there are other options available for survival), and you're definitely a vegan. Lol
New study finds plants feel pain, are they going to give up on that too?
Who murdered the fig
That's a very good point....
Oh look, it's a plants rights activist. Funny how they always seem to pop up whenever animal rights are mentioned.
Let's pretend you actually give a flying fuck about the "feelings of plants." I know you don't, but let's just see where that line of reasoning goes.
Raising livestock requires feeding them a tremendous amount of plants. It takes many many more times as many plants for you to eat meat as it would for you to just eat plants. SO, fucking BRANIAC, even a hard core plants rights activist WOULD STILL BE FUCKING VEGAN.
Charlie is most likely a temporary worker for MI5
Wtf. This is new territory for Charlie. Go on son
See I'm not just a pretty face
Bossing it King Charles. Untouchable man
Technically vegans can eat meat (foraged)eat eggs ..that's the philosophy
@@CharlesVeitch A Mass debate! ;)
@WhoKnowsYou420 I'm 45 too. Now. Must finish of that rare steak. Yummy darling
We got acid belly's for meat fact
This was insufferable. I appreciate the good will from Charlie, but this was zealoutrous waffle from a person who claims moral superiority, because of his frankly openly religious beliefs about the anthropomorphic nature of animals. The remarks he made at the end were very telling; about how a converted Charlie would be a boon for the religion of veganism.
The goal was always to establish a groundwork of misgiven rules that aligned with his narrow interpretation of morality, and then to have Charlie placate to each point, as though leading the lamb to the slaughter, for then to dismember him and take his balls as a trophy to vaganism. Very unscrupulous, and wreaking of religious and cult-like indoctrination.
In simple terms, for most people, the venn diagram of eating meat and love for animals does not meet so completely that one engulfs and extinguishes the other. So regardless of percieved harm, they will continue along the all too natural path of eating readily available meat.
Now why did Ramms choose this cause of all causes ?
If nobody talked about being vegan I doubt any of these sheeple would be
Ok Sherlock 😂
I've made quite a few 'veganesque' replies to some of the responses here,
But something I've not done and should have, is to say how much respect I have for you Charlie for not just having this debate, but for the way you did it.
You show some very strong human decency and the willingness to *actively* listen to what others are saying and take it on board.
Big respect for that man.
I feel sure you'll do more research of your own and OK, you'll come to your own conclusions, but I suspect you'll not - like most others do - just go by hearsay and propaganda, you'll find the facts - disgusting as they are - and let them guide you.
Top man Charlie!
Why should there bit a victor? One of you likes eating animals, one of you likes eating plants. The end.
I wonder if the cavemen worried about eating meat 🤔🇬🇧
Wonder if they worried about graping children 🤔 or any sort of violence for that matter
I like you Charlie - you & I, share a lot of the same thoughts, opinions and principles
Plus you're funny, smart and impressive in your ability to voice a thought publicly without fear of judgement . . . . . *BUT*
I've ALWAYS wondered why you carry such a strong dislike of passionate vegans
I'm a vegan since 2015 (and vegetation since 1989) and i would have thought you'd be rather more supportive of such a moral , emotive cause - but you're not, and it always baffles me
Its like uneducated people, when asked, "Why do you eat meat", and they reply "Cause it tastes good" . . . . . It seems so weak and comedic, an answer
Anyway - enjoyed the Video 🙂
Anyone obsessed with an ideology, regardless of which, is refusing to think for themselves when required.
Think I Am Thunk I did. 69 Appeases but dont wanna be Hitler.
May God be with you....
No one should be allowed to dictate diet preference.
Hello David Ramms, thank you for your efforts.
You're right you've changed my mind today I was considering going Vegan for a while now but after seeing your skinny arms ive decided to eat more high protein meat.
Wish you well and enjoy the Soy!
😂
He's bigger than Charlie
I don't think there is anything to debate the fact is all creatures are omnivores even Lions eat grass some times I remember watching a video of a cow chomping through grass and there was an injured baby bird in the way it just gobbled it up. Tame big cats in zoos will happily munch on fruit. The reason in the wild they eat meat is cos its all there is to get protein. Cows eat grass as they are to big and clumsy to be catch prey. Think of mad cows disease cows were fed ground up bone meal from other cows they happily ate it. Debate is over before it begins, eat what you can get.
Charlie missed the point that the vegan doesn't care about those animals lives at all. He would rather they never existed as all those animals would never be born to have a nice life in the fields with minimal worry of predators.
Yep, and they generally believe the in the global warming heating nonsense without any critical thinking, and have 0 thought for the health of quality of life for the next generation, infact it seems like they'd largly be happy just relying on new Engineers and Dr's from Africa.
I'd rather not exist at all if the alternative was to be born into animal agriculture. That's the whole point. We breed them into existence and subject them to pure horror!
Not bringing an animal into existence isn't cruelty, whereas bringing them into existence then slaughtering them, is cruelty.
Born by being forcibly brought into a captive existence to be eventually killed. If we did that to humans wouldn't you be horrified?
Would it matter how well the humans were looked after while they were in slavery and captivity before we marched them *AS YOUNG HEALTHY ADOLESCENTS* into slaughter houses to have their throats cut?
There are wild bison and buffalo, red jungle fowl, wild boar, and wild goats that we can look after and protect.
ALL the animals we raise for food are not wild animals they have been genetically manipulated by many years of selective breeding to produce more flesh, more milk, more eggs etc. They are ALL 'Frankenstein monsters' they need to be allowed to die out completely to end this horrendous needless exploitation and commodification of sentient beings.
There are a few people who do keep animals for food production in a nice way... being one of them... and knowing that there is no good nutrition in vegan diet if you want healthy children then I pitty you and your narrow view of things. @@LC-gs6qv
You are actually legit for this Charlie love the professionalism
everyone is smug these days and convinced they are right
Very nice talk. I can't eat meat anymore. But I eat everything else animal. Its just convenient and tasty, but absolutely cruel ugly and immoral. Vegan argument is like atheism argument, simply indestructible. Who is Charlie's vegan friend they spoke about? Everything is ok guy? What a legend. A bit overweight doesn't seem the type. I don't want you to go vegan, I want you to know its ok either way, but its probably worthwhile to be free from causing unnecessary harm to inocent animals. Maybe tomorrow. Keep it real, take care
Kfc it is then
I'm an omnivore, but I don't have any problem with people who choose veganism. What I do have a problem with, is the campaigners that say everyone has to be vegan. No I don't. Nobody has to be anything. We should all be free to make our personal choices.
"We should all be free to make our personal choices"
Yes, so why do you deny animals their freedom of choice?
That's exactly what vegans' actions show. They are opposed to the restriction of anyone's choice, providing that choice doesn't make a victim out someone else.
Non vegans are the only ones taking away the freedom of choice from others, by imprisoning, forcibly impregnating, killing and eating them.
It's not a personal choice if it has a victim. You're making a choice for the animals you kill
If I choose to be a slave owner it's my choice, you don't have to be a slave owner. We all have a choice....🤔
@@shanegallagher961 What are you on about Shane? I'm not a slave owner. Slavery is illegal, and animals cannot be slaves, because they are not human. Are you saying that pet owners are slave owners? Are you planning to give animals voting rights?
34:14… we about to slip the ‘s’ word? (Suffering) ;)
Message for David and Charlie
I was previously on the fence and ill admit I was lazy about making that new choice this video has pushed me further than anything ever has before the points made are spot on for both sides minus the negative comments
I'll be making the change and you guys should both feel great for helping make that possible
Charlie was called a lot of istic words in the chat that are over used and fit a very narrowminded narrative
We can disagree, don't be stupid about stuff that matters
So you gonna try plant based👍
@@jimmyobrien8738 yeah 100%
@@TRUTHDISTRIBUTIONNETWORK I did in 2018, I think everyone should try it, and see how you go
Nothing wrong with vegetables, they taste nice. But so does beef.
Unfortunately there's too many people to be able to treat every cow with care before and up to slaughter. So if more people turned vegan the better treatment of cattle might be more cost effective so that can only be a good thing .
I dunno. I like burgers.
Great stuff, gonna pour a whisky and coke and give this a listen ❤
It's a hard watch . You'll need it!
@@69Phuketnah i loved it
I cant takes Ramms serious when he is wearing a daft tee shirt. and a cap indoors.
What a pathetically shallow comment
@@watchdominion00 cope
CANT BREACH THE VEITCH!
He just did
You should do more.of these things ! You'll triple your views and followers
As a tall man with a calisthenic build, if I turned to Veganism I think I would float away on week-6.
Not if you eat enough calories and protein
I'm 6ft 2in with a slim build, vegan for over 13 years, a few months back I started eating a high protein high calorie diet and started training heavy 5 times a week at the gym, I went from 72kg to 84kg in no time
Just use Cronometer to make sure you're hitting your nutrition goals and make sure you remember to eat, that's the main problem with us skinnier guys, we don't eat enough!
@@davidramms We are the exact same height and weight my friend!
I like David I like his personality and spirit I like his points of view, he’s definitely not like a lot of vegans I know, he definitely doesn’t seem like a cult type like the usual vegans you see on market street, and he right when he says your spending more money on meat that you can trace back to where it was from but there definitely killed the same way, take know notice of these animals that are supposed to have had a great life cos you know deep down that bullshit doesn’t happen, David talks sense I like the guy, this debate is great and I can see both sides of the debate
I am a huge fan of Charlie but they are both missing the point. They are only really talking about this country and maybe Europe and the USA but there is no way in hell the rest of the world will go for this shit. Most countries eat meat and will never give it up
Explain to me how a vegan can easily live a vegan lifestyle, without meat eaters sourcing, producing, farming, transporting and importing from all over the world, for their 'vegan diet'?
And not simply passed on the killing responsibility to someone else, no better than they accuse others of by buying supermarket meat...
Veganism is a benefit of an oversupply of food resources, created by meat, and meat eaters not instead eating and consuming vast amounts of the other substitutes...
Logic.
The cost on the environments and the life therein, to supply a single vegan with a full substantial and nutritional diet, let alone their family or dependents also...
This is not sustainability, if everyone does it - ergo it is a luxury afforded to those so privileged enough to enjoy it, afforded to them by those who do not, and eat nutrition packed meat instead.
Furthermore, the meat eater understands and appreciates their impact on the respective environments, whereas the vegan is in a state of privileged denial of their own impacts in their smug utopian fallaciousness.
Would vegans oppose rat and mice infestations in their food stores, being exterminated?
Mice and rats are more intelligent than cows and chickens.
The extermination is also usually much more brutal; causes much more suffering.
How is a small animal going to 'see a combine harvester' coming, when it can't see over the crop?
What kind of denial logic is this!
Much more than 10 animals, obviously... none of them can see it coming, little animals in a field have no idea what is coming.
They are attracted to live there because it is food!
Entice many human onto a runway disguised as what they believe is billions of dollars (equivalent value to a mouse, as a food crop) then effectively blindfold them from the danger...
Then, when they are unable to run away from a jumbo jet simply by the vibration and noise of it, it was their fault for not being able to, and they are simply collateral damage.
Simply hypocrisy and favouritism.
The overpowering noise and vibration, much more than anything natural, overpowers senses and causes reactionary panic.
Some fairytale lalaland fantasy about most of them avoiding it.. the opposite for many.
And remember, unlike a road, and the fallacious analogy provided, an animal knows the danger and only crosses a road under duress... it is not actively enticed to do so, with mountains of food in the middle! Ridiculous! One can presume the number of road kills would occur, if one placed food all the way along the middle line for many miles... absurdity levels of fallacious denial; they know they entice and kill... they have the same complicit intent they accuse of having... hypocrisy.
The issue I have with vegans argument, is plants are alive as well, and plants do feel and some release chemicals to tell other plants there being eaten, and some plants eat bugs, so in my mind this argument about feeling, it's simply the circle of life, you need to eat to live, but meat is a privilege and should not be wasted. And animals should be free range in there natural environment and meat should be more of a special occasion like it was in the past. It's the waste that annoys me, don't want to see waste of plants or meat, both have a climate impact.
Oh look, it's a plants rights activist. Funny how they always seem to pop up whenever animal rights are mentioned.
Raising livestock requires feeding them a tremendous amount of plants. It takes many many more times as many plants for you to eat meat as it would for you to just eat plants. SO, fucking BRANIAC, even a hard core plants rights activist WOULD STILL BE FUCKING VEGAN.
Love this version of Charles. A great discussion.
It easy to make this mistake of looking at person and then assuming they eat healthy and is healthy or exercise well .....Yes those things can be indication of health ....But it can also be very misleading .....This is why when fit healthy looking people pass away it shocking to us .....but again what you see is not all of the truth .......Ive seen some terrible eating habit and sleeping patters and lack of exercise and smoke but they still manage to look fit and healthy and active .......An example would be some builders ....fit strong as hell ...but dont sleep right drink and smoke and eat mostly meat ...there not healthy .....Healthy can be an illusion ...
I knew instantly as soon as you said the natural philosophy argument his first point would be “oh so you’re in favour of rape because it happens naturally in the animal kingdom” and this argument is really weak if you think about it for more than 5 seconds.
1. Rape is a human idea, rape as we know it does not occur in the animal kingdom, and you can look at animals where it looks like they’re being raped to reproduce but you’re looking at an animal that has evolved over generations to reproduce in such a way and seeing it through a human lens of “oh this animal is trying to escape therefore rape”. Animals do not understand or cannot fathom the concept of rape as humans imagine in. Seeing as they’re driven by instinct.
2. To bite the bullet the best answer is “well, if Humans had evolved in such a way that the main way we reproduce was through forced sex by the male onto a female then yes I would support it. And before you call me evil. You too would support it as you would be human and it being a concept of “rape” would be foreign to you, but other forms of sexual intercourse such as the way we currently do it would perhaps be viewed in a rapey way as it would be absolutely foreign to us in that situation. And this is exactly how animals and the animals kingdom view the act of reproduction. It may look like rape to us but to them it’s as natural as eating or shitting.”
Edit
Charles laid this argument out really well.
And you said it very well too. Totally agree. Trying to use the concept of rape with animals just does not work. Very poor argument to use.
@@TheSadButMadLad Yes. Its a good argument to use because it uses what seperates us from alot of the animal kingdom. Empathy.
Its hard to argue against it because you look at the animal or hear the animal suffering you immediatly empathise with its situation. Making it really hard to defend. Its an argument he tries using against Charles when he asks why he rescues small animals. The answer is Empathy. Our Mirror neurons that we evolved allow us to recognize ourselves in every other creature. But if you look at the Animal Kingdom we've found mirror neurons in only 3 species. Humans, Macaques and Songbirds. Albeit this may be lack of looking and Id be willing to bet Dolphins, Elephants, dogs ect may contain them. We dont have proof but its possible.
But once you understand that then this argument can be turned on its head. "Would other animals do what Humans do? Would a cow treat humans the same way? Could a cow empathise with another creatures suffering. You speak of how chickens will cannibalise each other when they die. Thats not an empathetic creature. Humans imprisoned wouldnt eat each other if given food daily."
Or when asked why humans are seperate from animals, its Sentience, empathy and intelligence. Sentience being the ability to be aware. Empathy being our ability to understand suffering of life and intelligence to apply these things onto our environment to adapt our environment to ourselves rather than adapting ourselves to our environment.
I get really annoyed at Vegans not because they're bad people. But because they fail to see the reason they're vegan is the reason animals are different. They can empathise and it overpowers them. They are some of the most empathetic people and if applied correctly they could do amazing things for people. They would make the best social workers, doctors, psychologists. if they only understood that as humans they should put their own species first.
@@MrDinokillawe can reproduce through consent so no need for forced rape, animals can't reproduce through consent so either they do what they do or go extinct, so it's a woefully bad argument from vegans
@@MrDinokilla Well said again. Really solidifies some vague concepts that I have about vegans/vegetarians into a nice easily understandable format. Like you, I don't see vegans as bad people, just misguided. Because they are so empathetic as you say, they are also easily led. And "leaders" see them as subjects to use to boost their own egos. Which is the what occurs in cults. And to a certain degree religions too.
Can I throw a curve ball? And apologies about the word Hitler. He was a vegan late in life, partly due to doctors setting out his diet. He also like pet animals. So was he empathetic. In which case why all the suffering by the Jews. Or could he block it out because he didn't see it personally. Out of sight. Out of mind. Or was he just a psychopath who used anything to gain an upperhand.
@@TheSadButMadLad Yeah, the the ability to coerce people will high empathy into doing what you want has been a staple in cults and any organization since forever. It is unfortunate as all it takes is just realising the bad feeling you get and the need to repent for it by doing whatever is told of you is manipulation. And just taking a step back can help you see things in a greater light.
And nah, never apologise. Love curve balls.
So as someone who has unfortunately never met the guy I cannot trully say if he had high empathy. We know he loved animals, in particular dogs. But loving dogs isn’t a sign of high empathy but more so the biological realities of being man’s best friend. That’s why people, who don’t like dogs stand out so much because dogs helped us get where we are. But I’d say if he was empathetic then how he dealt with what was happening to the Jews is easy to understand. He didn’t view them as human. Which I’m not suprised at, Germany was undergoing a lot of turmoil and trouble. The Jews had tried the communist rebellion, owned most businesses, and if you believe in God, they killed Jesus. It’s not a hard leap to view them as non human and therefore our empathy is limited there.
Or he was a psychopath who just didn’t care. But that’s too easy and explanation and by that reasoning we should have millions of Hitlers. No, to me it was the perfect conditions to create someone who could view other humans with such disdain as to not view them as human
'Husbanding and Gardening' is the Design of Survival for animals. In that regard, they take positions in the Design to accomplish basic processes in that effort: *Survival*
The Design of those 'Processes' in humans is being 'Omnivores' for their 'Survival' as a species.
Some people understand the chemistry of surviving as a human being, and can manage an exclusively vegetarian diet and survive.
Great, but Pop goes the weasel,. and a coronal-mass-ejection occurs and electricity around the world ist kaput...
Vegans will return to being 'Omnivores' and start chasing those weasels again...:)
I don't think anyone won. You came out pretty good in the debating managing to counter all of David's points. He had to fall back on some classic debate avoidance techniques. Between the two of you, you raised some interesting points and some worth thinking about.
The interesting thing was reading the comments on the chat feed. The vegan/vegetarians were very closed minded. Saw some where the person said that they didn't know this Charlie guy but he must be a sociopath or some similar derogatory term. FiendPhoto and I did some attempts but it was a very busy chat so not easy.
Debates aren't supposed to be won or lost.
@@rick9698 They are supposed to help people educate themselves and learn what either side has to say and make up their own minds.
How did Building Seven collapse? If it's true the CIA spoke to you, then we know why you changed your tune so abruptly...
Either way its about the the amount and quality of what your injesting. You can be vegan and be consuming absolute junk full of chemicles same with meat
I was vegan for 6 years, but physically / mentally unwell, couldn't physically eat enough to gain weight.
Watching animals eat each other alive, helped me accept the nature of reality.
It's horrible that animals must eat one another. Immensely cruel. The world is beautiful, though. Just.. is what it is.
Animals, interconnected cannot exist without one another. Animals are the true gardeners of the planet.
Watch nature programs. Animals suffer a profoundly agonising death. Minutes, hours and sometimes weeks to die.
If animals didn't rip eachother to pieces, we wouldn't have a world to harvest crops. 🤷♂️
This beautiful world we experience couldn't exist without immense suffering.
Vegans exist because, for whatever personal reason they cannot accept the nature of reality.
Can’t lie, I paused mid convo for my lamb roast… ‘‘twas lush… love a bit of lamb fat tbf. 🤷🏻♂️
think this david had better points that were shrugged off
Good debate ,but i dont care i LIKE MEAT ,you want to be vegan good for you your choice ,my choice a good steak