Kirov's air defense capabilities is being a bit overrated by people. It's not simply about the amount of missiles or even VLS as important as the latter is. It's the fact the 3R41 Volna on the Kriov which guides the S-300F can only guide 6 missiles in which 2 missiles are assigned per target. Since it had a pair of these, that means 12 tracks. Meanwhile, the Osa systems can only track two missiles per sensor of which there are only two of each for 4 tracks. On top of that since Osa are RF CLOS missiles, they can't use the same Volna radar as the S-300F or vice versa. The AK-630 also uses its own fire control radar and electro-optical system of 4 sensors. That also means the 8 AK-630 can't shoot at 8 different targets but only shoot at 4 different targets. They can be manually aimed but that's only for taking out small boats, not incoming missiles. Since they all do different things, all the extra sensors do not add up to 20 tracks. It's 12 long range tracks and 4 medium range tracks and 4 point-defense tracks. There are no sensor fusion and they can't use each other's tracking information to increase the amount of guidance. The ship can have 90 VLS with S-300s but it can't use all of them. You fire 20+ missiles and the systems gets saturated and your only hope is that it takes some out early so it frees up tracking capability for subsequent targets. That's why the Aegis system was so revolutionary at the time. The Aegis system with it's SPY-1 radar can track over 100 targets simultaneously and every single air defense system can use it's tracking data other than the Phalanx CIWS which has its own sensor suite built-in. It does everything from short, medium, to long range and so it can use all its processing capability at all times. No other navy had this capability in the 80s and even now the Aegis system is very competitive despite 40 years later and that is with other countries slowly introducing similar systems for the past two decades. Granted, early Ticonderoga-class with only the twin arm launchers couldn't make use of the Aegis system to its fullest due to the slower rate of fire of the Mark 26 launchers. But with the VLS as is in this case, it can. The Kirov can't defend itself against such a saturation attack. The VLS Ticonderoga variants can and so it'll win.
Thanks, that's interesting! I wish you would send this to the developers. They really seem to be missing a lot of realism by not understanding things like these. Since I lived on the other side of the Iron Curtain in the 1980s and I know what Soviet computer technology was like at the time, I HIGHLY doubt the Soviet anti-ship missiles had the "hive mind" that they were advertised to have, one missile flying high, searching for targets, analysing them, intelligently choosing the most important ones, communicating with other missiles at 1600 knots and assigning targets... This from a country that was still unable to produce a microcomputer in the mid-1980s and had to make unauthorised (read: stolen) copies of the Sinclair ZX Spectrum... Generally speaking, the capabilities of Soviet/Russian gear tend to be overstated to get the effect of deterrence, while those of Western gear tend to be understated .
I believe the radars for the Osas can do fire-control for the AK-630s and possibly vice versa (although presumably the AK-630 systems don't include transmitter channels for the missiles, I'm not sure about that though), but yes, generally accurate. Also I believe that figure on number of tracks is for more modern versions of Aegis, some commenter on a previous video said that the 1980s Aegis could control up to 18 SAMs at once iirc (which I'm not sure is accurate but regardless is still much better than anything else in service at the time) but I don't think they had the computer capability for over a hundred tracks in the early versions of Aegis.
@@johnnyenglish583they are well aware of all of this. The fact is this game would be boring if Soviet equipment was not given the benefit of the doubt. They don’t just make things up, but there’s plenty of unproven systems from the Soviet navy at the time. If the soviets didn’t have capable extreme long range fleet killer missiles, the only way to balance the game would be to not ever use significant American SAGs. It simply wouldn’t be possible to make a scenario where a US CVBG isn’t extremely overpowered.
@@johnnyenglish583 it’s same in every game, including dcs. They just develop one model and use for different assets and sides. Same for radars, guidance systems. In dcs su35 radar same as f35 which is laughable. E3 capability is same as A100 which is a joke, Russians never had capable awacs with ground targeting radar and full electronic target guidance, they only can give voice info and at most send a radar picture, not real guidance. Same for stealth. I understand it’s just too much effort. So we never can assume those games being anything close to simulators. Just games
28:35 The maths, as requested: The US expended about 2.135 Billion USD worth of missiles. I couldn't find exact figures for the cost of Russian missiles
When I was a midshipman in the late 90's (washed out on a medical) I was told that the Aegis system could be put in "GOD MODE". When this happened, humans were taken out of the equation and the ship's computer made all decisions. 200 Ship wrecks would not have been a problem as it was a known Russian tactic to swarm attack and our ships were set up to deal with it.
I did a 1-on-1 version of this scenario, and the vls Tico won every single time even when scoring no hits with harpoons or TASMs. The reason being that the RIM-66 significantly outranges the sa-6 in surface-to-surface role, and the kirov had a really hard time intercepting them. With that amount of RIM-66 left, your 10 ticos might still be able to pull off a few hits on the kirovs, disabling their sa-6 battery and guns, and close in for the gun kill
That moment when you're pitting the entirety of the US navy's active Ticonderoga hulls against over double the amount of Kirov's that were ever planned or created.
I laugh at the idea eveyone and everything on the Russian ships performs perfectly 100% of the time, exactly as the propaganda sales guys deacribed it. Pay no attention to the real world Russian navy with the rusting, half-functional hulks with demoralized crews you actually see.
I looks like a lot of the Kirov's were designate 'unknown' contacts instead of hostile, which is why your first salvo was anemic. Also... just goes to show that logistical superiority ultimately wins conflicts.
I’m trying to recall this from memory so I don’t swear to the accuracy of my recollection but I believe that in special auto at this time Aegis would launch two SMs at each inbound missile track and then watch to see if there was a hit before launching follow up. The concern was the number of inbound missiles versus the number of outbound missiles available to kill them. That was the deciding factor (fictionally speaking) in dance of the vampires in Red Storm Rising-there were more inbound missiles than the Ticonderoga could send the other way. So even though she had enough time to empty her magazines (and this was pre VLS so she’s firing two forward and two from the stern per cycle) she couldn’t kill all the inbounds. Here ten Ticos have way more SMs than the ten Kirovs have SS-19s. So emptying the magazines is pretty much going to guarantee you kill everything in the air unless something weird happens like all of the explosions from your own missiles taking out their missiles allowing one of their missiles to slip through. It’s all fiction of course, I don’t think they ever had all their Kirovs working at the same time much less in the same place and I can’t remember if we ever sortied with more than two Ticos in a battle group ever outside of a training exercise.
I'm still at the start of the video, but I think you needed to set the Kirovs as enemies at the start while paused. This would explain why the Ticos barely fired anything at them - they were still considered unidentified. Also, the formula is 8 missiles per target, plus an additional 8 for each ship the target has around to defend it. So in this case, with 10 kirovs, you would expect to need 80 missiles to get a hit on 1 Kirov.
I fire a big block of TLAMs, then TASMs, more TLAMs and more TASMs- if you get your aim right the TLAMs go right over the enemy ships and since they can't tell between an anti ship missile and a land attack missile they engange them all. If you can managed to get mixed groups you've essentially given your missiles decoys. Of course it'd be great if you could choose what proportion of missiles were going to be land attack and anti ship before the mission started, but ho hum.
Honestly 10 Kirov's never really had a chance. The Flight 2 Tico's with the VLS were specifically designed to counter the Russian missile storm, Each SPY-1B panel on a Tico can track up to 200 contacts If angled correctly 2 panels can be brought to bear down a threat axis giving the ship the capability of tracking up to 400 contacts. That is just for detecting and tracking, when engaging the Tico will use its 4 AN/SPG-62 Fire Control radar to guide weapons in the terminal phase. Each of those 4 FC radars are capable of controlling several missiles. Contrast that with the Kirov which does not have the capability to track as many targets as well as their inability to engage more than a few incoming missiles at a time... this was evidenced by the relatively slow response times when the US missiles finally reach them. Another thing to note is the engagement doctrine that both Navys use. On the US side interception at range is favored and you can see this as the vast majority of the Russian missiles were stopped well outside of 20 miles and as far out as 40 miles. The Russians on the other hand favors a more, close in defense, most of their interceptors are short range and they have double the amount of CWIS that they can bring to bear on a threat axis. and this can be seen as most of the American missiles were stopped within 10 miles of the Kirov fleet And to put a damper on you being able to chase down the Tico fleet, the Kirov wouldn't be capable of doing that either. Both ships have a top speed of ~30 knots but the Kirov can only maintain that speed for around 1000 miles whereas the Tico could maintain it for ~3300 miles But those speeds are unrealistic for long periods of time. More realistically the Tico's would be able to outpace the Kirov by 5 knots at normal cruise and sprinting to 30 knots to stay ahead when the Kirov sprinted. That being said though the Ticos would easily get away assuming that the nearest friendly port was within 6k miles because the Kirov could effectively steam at 20 knots indefinitely using its nuclear propulsion.
This was an interesting (and frankly surprising) result. From past experience the Kirov's are vastly superior to the Ticos (on paper at least). Also its actually unfair balance wise - to the USN. The Kirov's cost the Soviet Union far more than the Ticos cost the USA, they are bigger (more HP), equipped with far more systems and their shipwreck missiles are far more deadly both in speed, range and delivery than the Harpoons and cruise missiles. If this was a wargame with a points system the Kirov would be far greater cost than the Tico.
I love such experiments. Hell yeah it's not realistic, that's what games / simulators are for! Made an Iowa fight of a Kirov at close range, I was not expecting the outcome.
Probably a reflection of naval doctrines. The Kirov was to be the capital ship which the Sovremenny, Udaloys, Kashin, Krivaks etc. etc. all are centred around as the primary striking force. The Ticos however were mostly designed as heavy anti-air & anti-sub defence platforms....centred around 1~2 Forrestal, Kitty Hawk or Nimitz class fleet carrier, which was the actual primary strike vessel of a task force.
There's a good mini-documentary here on RUclips (by The Operations Room) on Desert Storm where the USS Missouri in a battlegroup had to fend off a few incoming missiles and fighters. You hear the alarm and urgency among the crew. That was just a few threats. I could imagine the demoralization when you learn that 200 missiles are coming at your fleet.
Kirov fire control would have been overwhelmed with the massive missle strike. It would have just seen the contacts as a giant blob. Aegis radar on the Ticonderoga is capable of tracking and directing fire control for like over 200 contacts per ship.
@@Aaaasda-lx3oo The AN-SPY-1 can track 200 targets per panel (each ship has four panels, but each one covers like 120 degrees so at most 2 can be working on any threat vector). It can't engage 200 targets at once though. If you are wondering how this is possible, the reason is the use of phased array antennas. A phased array can re-aim its beam on every pulse and can split its beam into multiple sub-beams, vs a normal radar that has to wait for the antenna to mechanically turn to be aimed at the target. This being the case, the radar doesn't have to lock on and track like a old school radar, instead for each contact detected the radar's computer system saves its location and velocity vector, then keeps scanning for other targets, but periodically it aims a sub- beam back at where it expects the contact it already saw to be and checks on it to update its position and velocity. This technique is called track-while-scan, and it basically means the radar can track as many targets as it has CPU power and memory to handle (by periodically checking up on them) while still searching for new ones. Track while scan has one major limitation, which is that the determined position isn't accurate enough to guide a missile to intercept a target. The radar can guide missiles to the rough location of the target using TWS, but for the final stages of the intercept it has to aim an illuminator radar at the target to provide a signal for the missile's semi-active seeker. The Ticonderogas have four illuminators (they're the aimable dishes on top of the superstructure) so they can effectively intercept four targets simultaneously. The fire control system on the Ticos is smart enough to stagger the launches of missiles so that at most four missiles need the illuminator at any time, once those missiles hit or miss the target the illuminators automatically switch to aiming at the targets of the next four missiles and so on. So they can engage with dozens of missiles at a time if necessary.
in one of the built in scenarios wich is kirov v iowa , i hid my long range tasm's in the middle of tlams (wich i aimed where the kirov was going to be if it kept course and speed) none of the tlams hit of course but they soaked some of the sams
Given the sheer volume of ordnance expended here for little gain, I don't think either side wins through economic ruin (although the Soviets would be far worse off strategically)
The one thing that never gets modeled are the classified capabilities of these platforms. The SLQ-32 is perhaps the most classified pieces of hardware in the Navy. It is run by a supercomputer (by whatever the definition of the day is) and well tested learning algorithms. It is not permitted to operate in wartime mode unless the ship has been fired upon and requires multiple authentication procedures. It can do things these Sim designers could never know. Given their autonomous AI (even in the 80s) the actual peacetime operators would not even know what the true capabilities are. Similarly, the proximity warheads on SM-1/2/3/6 have wartime modes, which almost certainly involve not just blast fragmentation effects, but potentially localized EMP emissions to even gamma radiation which could be used safely at sea, and which would scramble or disable the fuel cells and onboard radars of the missiles. Solid state fuel cells are quite sensitive to such unexpected indirectly energy weapons. Missiles made of aircraft aluminum with ranges like these cannot afford to be shielded. It takes gold, lead and a lot of unwanted weight. Such warheads aren’t expensive at all, and would be quite an effective cone beyond what a blast fragmentation warhead alone can deliver. So they almost certainly exist to this day.
it entirely depends on whether or not the kirovs would be fast enough to catch up to the ticonderogas, because even if they wouldn't have ran away from that fight immediately they would definitely not stick around after they fired all of their attack missiles, and at that point it's just a matter of which ship is faster and can the kirovs close at all much less fast enough to matter.
Except we don't balance the stats for gameplay, and the outcomes are largely the same between the two games. I don't know where this ridiculous idea that 'we balance for gameplay' comes from.
Thank you for making this Stealth17. I was really hoping for this . This was great to see .appreciate the video with thr mod. This was a treat to see all the missles flying. I'm glad i asked for this video of 10 v10 . I don't have a pc to play the game so I can only watch lol. I'm glad I'm a member and that I get to see it early. 💯👍
A Tico ruled the 80s and early 90s when it worked...when I joined in 2016 they were mostly there for show by 2021 if they were out for more than a few months it was a miracle. The capability is impressive but the design was a nightmare. Love to see them doing what they do though.
@Stealth17Gaming the hull was a slightly longer spruance class with the SPY radar and other necessary upgrades built into the super structure. It was remarkably stable but they attained that by making most of the super structure spaces a labyrinthinian mess made out of aluminum which has its own issues. They called certain spaces the catacombs for how inconvenient and confusing they can be if youre not used to them. Over the lifetime of the ship the amount of weight that was above the water line put alot of strain on the hull and so the ships had significant structural issues later in life. The recent attempts at modernization tried to address these and frequently ran waaaay over budget because of follow on issues discovered in the yards. I got extended a month because a Tico (USS Port Royal) discovered a leak in one of her fuel tanks and had stability issues that meant she couldn't safely be in a sea state over 10 feet. Ticos are capable platforms but for the duration of my career they were mostly for show.
@Stealth17Gaming long story short Aegis was a very troubled program. Think F-35 with less publicity. So when Aegis on ships became a thing they just took a spruance hull lengthened it a bit and stuck all the needed upgrades on top. The result was surprisingly stable despite the weight. The super structure was labyrinthine but we got used to it(its also made almost entirely of aluminum but thats its own post) However the longterm effects on the hull were really bad. By the end the hulls were warping and the sea keeping was being affected in big ways. They tried to modernize and repair them but most ran waaay over time and budget because of all the issues they had and thus are being decommisioned. I had to cover down for a ship that couldn't handle 10 foot waves in the middle of the ocean because of a leaky fuel tank.
@@ceberskie119 Just curious, but which one was it? Been on two myself, and one was constantly needing repairs, it was mostly duct tape by the time we decom'd it, so just wondering if it was us at that point.
I personally think the US/NATO wins the engagement. If this timeline you’ve set up has a ship classes multiplied by a factor of 2.5, then the US has plenty more Ticonderoga class cruisers (if 27 Ticonderoga were built IRL, and were multiplying by a factor of 2.5, that means the US has about 68 Ticonderoga class cruisers). However, the Soviets most likely cannot afford to replace these losses, given the sheer size and expense it would take to make another Kirov
Fire the TLAMs, if you have some, in advance of the TASMs, at coordinates slightly behind the enemy formation. They will effectively work as decoys, or SAM sponges if you prefer.
you cant target ships with TLAMs but you can designate a bit of sea so they fire. you can use them as decoys to improve the chance that your TSAMs get through, though you'd have to do that manually
Are the Ticonderogas fast enough to outrun the Kirovs after the missile engagement? If the Ticonderogas can retire from the battlefield they can call it a win. If not then things like the range of their guns and torpedos will start to matter.
Those are not the problem. The game is poorly optimized (At the moment) and this means that my CPU/GPU are not doing much. Hopefully this will get optimized because it makes larger scenarios difficult/impossible to play without the game becoming a slideshow.
Kirovs chasing other ships is an interesting idea. Their range at ~30kn isn't great - they need to burn dino juice to hit that speed. (CONAG?). Eventually, yes they can run the Ticos down but that assumes the ocean is otherwise empty. Likewise, the Ticos chasing Kirovs that still have their AK-130s working isn't such a fantastic idea, either. NATO ships, and US ships in particular of this era did an odd combination of problem-solving within any given hull. Some were clearly SAM buckets, while others it was less well-defined just what the ship was meant to do. Maybe try a combination closer to a fleet. Kirov, Slava, Sovrem, Kashin, Udaloy, Kresta... etc vs CF Adams, Brooklyn, Spruance, Virginia, VLS Tico... OR take all the VLS ships out totally so it's less of a missile-fest. There will still be plenty of vampires. These sims don't prove anything - but to me they do strongly suggest that the varied fortunes of war will be every bit as much a deciding factor as the weapons or even the people behind them.
With How CIWS works for the russians , Densly packed battlegroups with lots and lots of OSA and 1 or 2 S300fs Are practically impenetrable without Jamming
There is one thing the tomahawk had a range of over 1,000 miles give or take that is from the capital of Pennsylvania to about the middle of Florida. The tomahawk far outranges the anything the Russians had
@Stealth17Gaming at the 23 to 25 second mark there a grey menu box / formation control window that I have never seen in game. Is that a mod or something I have just never seen ? Cheers
10 vs 10? Why not in ratio of how many there were in the navies? If ever into a war time situation I am sure the usa would have gone after it with at least 8 or so...
Before I answer that, I have to caveat with ‘I don’t claim to be an expert on naval warfare, but I do like to read.’. To my knowledge, the game is based around the worlds navies up until mid-1985, if that is what this question is based on, then the mod is not realistic…because the first VLS Ticonderoga didn’t come in service until 1986. In my opinion, that is why the game is based on 1985 naval power, because the twin arm launcher Ticonderoga with AEGIS that is in the vanilla game, that was in use in 1985, is already a pretty potent anti-air and anti-missile ship, especially when you’ve got a couple other decent missile ships in your formation. (Although I don’t believe the game models just how good AEGIS is in comparison to other systems very well. UNCLAS AEGIS can simultaneously identify, categorize, prioritize, and engage over 100 targets autonomously, not only using the missile systems on the AEGIS equipped ship, but also any other allied missile systems in range. Today, it’s still probably the best system at what it does in the world, although it’s got a few contenders, in the 1980’s, nothing came close.) If the game was based on ships 1986 -1990, and included AEGIS VLS Ticonderoga’s, and allowed them to be as good as they were (and still are.), it would destroy any aspect of balance in the game, because even up to current day, there’s not much you can do to sink a ship that, without any other ships, can identify, categorize, prioritize and engage with 90 missiles out to 80 miles in under a minute. So, if you discount that the game is specifically based in 1985, and you allow late 80’s technology to be put into the mix, then it the mod does make it more realistic.
Shooting down things with guns is something we have seen recently against the Houthi's. Here a Danish warship switches to guns when its air targeting radar malfunctions as it is being attacked by 4 drones; ruclips.net/video/-daGXN_t7aQ/видео.html (subtitles in English, runtime 1m 26 sec)
Guess this proves that in this game, Russian missile ships reign supreme. If only they could actually have a fraction of this IRL. Anyway, can you do a scenario like this with subs, or fighters?
Nato definetly won this irl the soviets would likely turn around or faulter and nato would have time to bring more air and sea assets to attack them. You have to remember just how many ocean going warships nato could muster comparatively to the soviet navy. i do not consider soviet missile boats with the sole purpose of running in and firing off 4 missiles as ocean going in this count even if they can go into the oceans.
That's AEGIS for you, a bit of a shame that the TASMs and Harpoons only scored two kills on the Kirovs (Soviet CIWS seems a little bit too OP imo, but whatever). I'm interested in other different scenarios with the mod, especially the NTU specific ships that essentially been upgraded to have a form of AEGIS.
The Soviets didn't have anything potent at the time, so the devs gave them an edge to match the USN. How you use the Soviet fleet determines if they're OP.
That seems to be how the AI does things. The Kirov's held back their salvos too and didn't fully unload their shipwrecks in one horrifying barrage. Seems like the AI is just conservative with anti ship missiles and most other scenarios I've seen the AI behaves similarly
Nice missile shootout. I think the Kirov's actual capability is largely exaggerated of not only targeting ships with their SSN-19s but its doubtful their true intercept rate is that good looking at how 2 Ukrainian Neptune cruise missiles were able to slip past the Moskva's defenses and score direct hits to sink it. The VLS Ticos main purpose is air cover for task force formations and they carry more missiles (122) than the Arleigh Burke DDGs (96). While the Ticos don't really carry much for offensive firepower, they were designed for defense.
El día que Ucrania atacó el Moscú los sistemas de defensa aérea no funcionaron ni siquiera los de corto alcance ni de punto..ese día había una tormenta enorme nadie sabe lo que pasó y creer lo que la versión de Ucrania 😂😂😂es realimente ser idiota
Moskva couldn't defend itself due to the multiple failures onboard, if the admiral didn't ignore the reports, Moskva would have defeated those Neptunes with ease.
@@Stealth17Gaming I watched it till the very end. You mentioned it yourself that the Ticos’ missiles had longer range with the mod. Their rate of SAM fire was also 10 times that of the Kirovs. Heck they got a supersonic missile with the gun!!!???!!!??? And how do you explain the Kirovs having 960 anti air missiles and they fired what? 100? And they fired at 10 miles? The Ticos were spamming missile launches while the Kirovs were… having coffee? My beef is not with you. I like your videos. But the mod developers. They should take a long hard look at their mod. I respect all the hard work they put in bringing modern weapons to the game. I am disappointed in the way they unbalance the game.
Kirov's air defense capabilities is being a bit overrated by people. It's not simply about the amount of missiles or even VLS as important as the latter is.
It's the fact the 3R41 Volna on the Kriov which guides the S-300F can only guide 6 missiles in which 2 missiles are assigned per target. Since it had a pair of these, that means 12 tracks.
Meanwhile, the Osa systems can only track two missiles per sensor of which there are only two of each for 4 tracks.
On top of that since Osa are RF CLOS missiles, they can't use the same Volna radar as the S-300F or vice versa. The AK-630 also uses its own fire control radar and electro-optical system of 4 sensors. That also means the 8 AK-630 can't shoot at 8 different targets but only shoot at 4 different targets. They can be manually aimed but that's only for taking out small boats, not incoming missiles.
Since they all do different things, all the extra sensors do not add up to 20 tracks. It's 12 long range tracks and 4 medium range tracks and 4 point-defense tracks. There are no sensor fusion and they can't use each other's tracking information to increase the amount of guidance. The ship can have 90 VLS with S-300s but it can't use all of them.
You fire 20+ missiles and the systems gets saturated and your only hope is that it takes some out early so it frees up tracking capability for subsequent targets.
That's why the Aegis system was so revolutionary at the time. The Aegis system with it's SPY-1 radar can track over 100 targets simultaneously and every single air defense system can use it's tracking data other than the Phalanx CIWS which has its own sensor suite built-in. It does everything from short, medium, to long range and so it can use all its processing capability at all times. No other navy had this capability in the 80s and even now the Aegis system is very competitive despite 40 years later and that is with other countries slowly introducing similar systems for the past two decades. Granted, early Ticonderoga-class with only the twin arm launchers couldn't make use of the Aegis system to its fullest due to the slower rate of fire of the Mark 26 launchers. But with the VLS as is in this case, it can.
The Kirov can't defend itself against such a saturation attack. The VLS Ticonderoga variants can and so it'll win.
Thanks, that's interesting! I wish you would send this to the developers. They really seem to be missing a lot of realism by not understanding things like these.
Since I lived on the other side of the Iron Curtain in the 1980s and I know what Soviet computer technology was like at the time, I HIGHLY doubt the Soviet anti-ship missiles had the "hive mind" that they were advertised to have, one missile flying high, searching for targets, analysing them, intelligently choosing the most important ones, communicating with other missiles at 1600 knots and assigning targets... This from a country that was still unable to produce a microcomputer in the mid-1980s and had to make unauthorised (read: stolen) copies of the Sinclair ZX Spectrum...
Generally speaking, the capabilities of Soviet/Russian gear tend to be overstated to get the effect of deterrence, while those of Western gear tend to be understated .
I believe the radars for the Osas can do fire-control for the AK-630s and possibly vice versa (although presumably the AK-630 systems don't include transmitter channels for the missiles, I'm not sure about that though), but yes, generally accurate. Also I believe that figure on number of tracks is for more modern versions of Aegis, some commenter on a previous video said that the 1980s Aegis could control up to 18 SAMs at once iirc (which I'm not sure is accurate but regardless is still much better than anything else in service at the time) but I don't think they had the computer capability for over a hundred tracks in the early versions of Aegis.
@@johnnyenglish583they are well aware of all of this. The fact is this game would be boring if Soviet equipment was not given the benefit of the doubt. They don’t just make things up, but there’s plenty of unproven systems from the Soviet navy at the time. If the soviets didn’t have capable extreme long range fleet killer missiles, the only way to balance the game would be to not ever use significant American SAGs. It simply wouldn’t be possible to make a scenario where a US CVBG isn’t extremely overpowered.
@@johnnyenglish583 it’s same in every game, including dcs. They just develop one model and use for different assets and sides. Same for radars, guidance systems. In dcs su35 radar same as f35 which is laughable. E3 capability is same as A100 which is a joke, Russians never had capable awacs with ground targeting radar and full electronic target guidance, they only can give voice info and at most send a radar picture, not real guidance. Same for stealth. I understand it’s just too much effort. So we never can assume those games being anything close to simulators. Just games
Quite interesting, I wonder how much an improvement NTU made in comparison.
28:35 The maths, as requested:
The US expended about 2.135 Billion USD worth of missiles.
I couldn't find exact figures for the cost of Russian missiles
The Russian spent more Shipwrecks than ever built
"...they are not gonna form a hive mind, they are gonna form the borg"
Phenomenal line XD
That last harpoon. "wait you mean I PASSED chaff? I'm turning this missle around!"
When I was a midshipman in the late 90's (washed out on a medical) I was told that the Aegis system could be put in "GOD MODE". When this happened, humans were taken out of the equation and the ship's computer made all decisions. 200 Ship wrecks would not have been a problem as it was a known Russian tactic to swarm attack and our ships were set up to deal with it.
Cool!
I call that mode Death Blossom.
Saturation doctrine.
@@Yaivenovthat’s the spirit young Starfighter
😂
I did a 1-on-1 version of this scenario, and the vls Tico won every single time even when scoring no hits with harpoons or TASMs.
The reason being that the RIM-66 significantly outranges the sa-6 in surface-to-surface role, and the kirov had a really hard time intercepting them. With that amount of RIM-66 left, your 10 ticos might still be able to pull off a few hits on the kirovs, disabling their sa-6 battery and guns, and close in for the gun kill
All hail biblically accurate Ticonderoga
This is a great demonstration of what the AEGIS system is capable of when applied to the fullest extent of it's capability
The Military Industrial Complex approves!
You really should enable surface search as it allows you to detect sea skimming missiles
That moment when you're pitting the entirety of the US navy's active Ticonderoga hulls against over double the amount of Kirov's that were ever planned or created.
I laugh at the idea eveyone and everything on the Russian ships performs perfectly 100% of the time, exactly as the propaganda sales guys deacribed it. Pay no attention to the real world Russian navy with the rusting, half-functional hulks with demoralized crews you actually see.
I looks like a lot of the Kirov's were designate 'unknown' contacts instead of hostile, which is why your first salvo was anemic. Also... just goes to show that logistical superiority ultimately wins conflicts.
I’m trying to recall this from memory so I don’t swear to the accuracy of my recollection but I believe that in special auto at this time Aegis would launch two SMs at each inbound missile track and then watch to see if there was a hit before launching follow up. The concern was the number of inbound missiles versus the number of outbound missiles available to kill them. That was the deciding factor (fictionally speaking) in dance of the vampires in Red Storm Rising-there were more inbound missiles than the Ticonderoga could send the other way. So even though she had enough time to empty her magazines (and this was pre VLS so she’s firing two forward and two from the stern per cycle) she couldn’t kill all the inbounds. Here ten Ticos have way more SMs than the ten Kirovs have SS-19s. So emptying the magazines is pretty much going to guarantee you kill everything in the air unless something weird happens like all of the explosions from your own missiles taking out their missiles allowing one of their missiles to slip through.
It’s all fiction of course, I don’t think they ever had all their Kirovs working at the same time much less in the same place and I can’t remember if we ever sortied with more than two Ticos in a battle group ever outside of a training exercise.
More than two Ticos would have been rare, but nowadays two Ticos and four Burkes wouldn't be.
I'm still at the start of the video, but I think you needed to set the Kirovs as enemies at the start while paused. This would explain why the Ticos barely fired anything at them - they were still considered unidentified.
Also, the formula is 8 missiles per target, plus an additional 8 for each ship the target has around to defend it. So in this case, with 10 kirovs, you would expect to need 80 missiles to get a hit on 1 Kirov.
That probably messed it up yeah
I fire a big block of TLAMs, then TASMs, more TLAMs and more TASMs- if you get your aim right the TLAMs go right over the enemy ships and since they can't tell between an anti ship missile and a land attack missile they engange them all. If you can managed to get mixed groups you've essentially given your missiles decoys.
Of course it'd be great if you could choose what proportion of missiles were going to be land attack and anti ship before the mission started, but ho hum.
Honestly 10 Kirov's never really had a chance. The Flight 2 Tico's with the VLS were specifically designed to counter the Russian missile storm, Each SPY-1B panel on a Tico can track up to 200 contacts If angled correctly 2 panels can be brought to bear down a threat axis giving the ship the capability of tracking up to 400 contacts. That is just for detecting and tracking, when engaging the Tico will use its 4 AN/SPG-62 Fire Control radar to guide weapons in the terminal phase. Each of those 4 FC radars are capable of controlling several missiles.
Contrast that with the Kirov which does not have the capability to track as many targets as well as their inability to engage more than a few incoming missiles at a time... this was evidenced by the relatively slow response times when the US missiles finally reach them.
Another thing to note is the engagement doctrine that both Navys use. On the US side interception at range is favored and you can see this as the vast majority of the Russian missiles were stopped well outside of 20 miles and as far out as 40 miles. The Russians on the other hand favors a more, close in defense, most of their interceptors are short range and they have double the amount of CWIS that they can bring to bear on a threat axis. and this can be seen as most of the American missiles were stopped within 10 miles of the Kirov fleet
And to put a damper on you being able to chase down the Tico fleet, the Kirov wouldn't be capable of doing that either. Both ships have a top speed of ~30 knots but the Kirov can only maintain that speed for around 1000 miles whereas the Tico could maintain it for ~3300 miles But those speeds are unrealistic for long periods of time. More realistically the Tico's would be able to outpace the Kirov by 5 knots at normal cruise and sprinting to 30 knots to stay ahead when the Kirov sprinted. That being said though the Ticos would easily get away assuming that the nearest friendly port was within 6k miles because the Kirov could effectively steam at 20 knots indefinitely using its nuclear propulsion.
This was an interesting (and frankly surprising) result. From past experience the Kirov's are vastly superior to the Ticos (on paper at least). Also its actually unfair balance wise - to the USN. The Kirov's cost the Soviet Union far more than the Ticos cost the USA, they are bigger (more HP), equipped with far more systems and their shipwreck missiles are far more deadly both in speed, range and delivery than the Harpoons and cruise missiles. If this was a wargame with a points system the Kirov would be far greater cost than the Tico.
"We Are The Shipwreck Borg..."Resistance Is Futile".
Alternative title for this video:
"Don't run THIS on anything less than a NASA SUPERCOMPUTER"
I'm very impressed the game was able to handle this!
I love such experiments. Hell yeah it's not realistic, that's what games / simulators are for!
Made an Iowa fight of a Kirov at close range, I was not expecting the outcome.
I think the issue of the Ticos not firing initially is because none of the Russian ships were marked hostile yet.
Probably a reflection of naval doctrines. The Kirov was to be the capital ship which the Sovremenny, Udaloys, Kashin, Krivaks etc. etc. all are centred around as the primary striking force. The Ticos however were mostly designed as heavy anti-air & anti-sub defence platforms....centred around 1~2 Forrestal, Kitty Hawk or Nimitz class fleet carrier, which was the actual primary strike vessel of a task force.
There's a good mini-documentary here on RUclips (by The Operations Room) on Desert Storm where the USS Missouri in a battlegroup had to fend off a few incoming missiles and fighters. You hear the alarm and urgency among the crew. That was just a few threats. I could imagine the demoralization when you learn that 200 missiles are coming at your fleet.
Kirov fire control would have been overwhelmed with the massive missle strike. It would have just seen the contacts as a giant blob. Aegis radar on the Ticonderoga is capable of tracking and directing fire control for like over 200 contacts per ship.
"directing fire control for like over 200 contacts per ship" - are there any proofs for this statement?
@@Aaaasda-lx3oo The AN-SPY-1 can track 200 targets per panel (each ship has four panels, but each one covers like 120 degrees so at most 2 can be working on any threat vector). It can't engage 200 targets at once though.
If you are wondering how this is possible, the reason is the use of phased array antennas. A phased array can re-aim its beam on every pulse and can split its beam into multiple sub-beams, vs a normal radar that has to wait for the antenna to mechanically turn to be aimed at the target. This being the case, the radar doesn't have to lock on and track like a old school radar, instead for each contact detected the radar's computer system saves its location and velocity vector, then keeps scanning for other targets, but periodically it aims a sub- beam back at where it expects the contact it already saw to be and checks on it to update its position and velocity. This technique is called track-while-scan, and it basically means the radar can track as many targets as it has CPU power and memory to handle (by periodically checking up on them) while still searching for new ones.
Track while scan has one major limitation, which is that the determined position isn't accurate enough to guide a missile to intercept a target. The radar can guide missiles to the rough location of the target using TWS, but for the final stages of the intercept it has to aim an illuminator radar at the target to provide a signal for the missile's semi-active seeker. The Ticonderogas have four illuminators (they're the aimable dishes on top of the superstructure) so they can effectively intercept four targets simultaneously. The fire control system on the Ticos is smart enough to stagger the launches of missiles so that at most four missiles need the illuminator at any time, once those missiles hit or miss the target the illuminators automatically switch to aiming at the targets of the next four missiles and so on. So they can engage with dozens of missiles at a time if necessary.
in one of the built in scenarios wich is kirov v iowa , i hid my long range tasm's in the middle of tlams (wich i aimed where the kirov was going to be if it kept course and speed) none of the tlams hit of course but they soaked some of the sams
Captain, how many missiles do we launch?
Captain: yes.
The VLS IRL should be loadout customized if the user desires to load all harpoons instead of mix missile loadout.
Given the sheer volume of ordnance expended here for little gain, I don't think either side wins through economic ruin (although the Soviets would be far worse off strategically)
strategicly this was twice the number of kirovs ever built with 3x the total number of shipwrecks - this would have made the Russian fleet Toothless
Stealth: The Kirov will win in a long engagement.
Ticos: We knocked 2 of them out. Time to execute a tactical repositioning. Why win harder?
Missile spammers vs missile spammers
The one thing that never gets modeled are the classified capabilities of these platforms. The SLQ-32 is perhaps the most classified pieces of hardware in the Navy. It is run by a supercomputer (by whatever the definition of the day is) and well tested learning algorithms. It is not permitted to operate in wartime mode unless the ship has been fired upon and requires multiple authentication procedures. It can do things these Sim designers could never know. Given their autonomous AI (even in the 80s) the actual peacetime operators would not even know what the true capabilities are.
Similarly, the proximity warheads on SM-1/2/3/6 have wartime modes, which almost certainly involve not just blast fragmentation effects, but potentially localized EMP emissions to even gamma radiation which could be used safely at sea, and which would scramble or disable the fuel cells and onboard radars of the missiles. Solid state fuel cells are quite sensitive to such unexpected indirectly energy weapons. Missiles made of aircraft aluminum with ranges like these cannot afford to be shielded. It takes gold, lead and a lot of unwanted weight.
Such warheads aren’t expensive at all, and would be quite an effective cone beyond what a blast fragmentation warhead alone can deliver.
So they almost certainly exist to this day.
it entirely depends on whether or not the kirovs would be fast enough to catch up to the ticonderogas, because even if they wouldn't have ran away from that fight immediately they would definitely not stick around after they fired all of their attack missiles, and at that point it's just a matter of which ship is faster and can the kirovs close at all much less fast enough to matter.
Try this on C:MO where the sim isn't balanced for gameplay, it's adjusted for realism, and I expect you'll get a very different outcome.
Don't have C:MO. Go ahead and let me know how it goes.
Except we don't balance the stats for gameplay, and the outcomes are largely the same between the two games. I don't know where this ridiculous idea that 'we balance for gameplay' comes from.
@@julhelm1821It comes from ameriboos not having their toys being an automatic "i win" button
Thank you for making this Stealth17. I was really hoping for this . This was great to see .appreciate the video with thr mod. This was a treat to see all the missles flying. I'm glad i asked for this video of 10 v10 . I don't have a pc to play the game so I can only watch lol. I'm glad I'm a member and that I get to see it early. 💯👍
Glad you liked it :). Lots of expensive fireworks in this one!
A Tico ruled the 80s and early 90s when it worked...when I joined in 2016 they were mostly there for show by 2021 if they were out for more than a few months it was a miracle. The capability is impressive but the design was a nightmare. Love to see them doing what they do though.
What made the design so bad?
@Stealth17Gaming the hull was a slightly longer spruance class with the SPY radar and other necessary upgrades built into the super structure. It was remarkably stable but they attained that by making most of the super structure spaces a labyrinthinian mess made out of aluminum which has its own issues. They called certain spaces the catacombs for how inconvenient and confusing they can be if youre not used to them. Over the lifetime of the ship the amount of weight that was above the water line put alot of strain on the hull and so the ships had significant structural issues later in life. The recent attempts at modernization tried to address these and frequently ran waaaay over budget because of follow on issues discovered in the yards. I got extended a month because a Tico (USS Port Royal) discovered a leak in one of her fuel tanks and had stability issues that meant she couldn't safely be in a sea state over 10 feet. Ticos are capable platforms but for the duration of my career they were mostly for show.
@Stealth17Gaming long story short Aegis was a very troubled program. Think F-35 with less publicity. So when Aegis on ships became a thing they just took a spruance hull lengthened it a bit and stuck all the needed upgrades on top. The result was surprisingly stable despite the weight. The super structure was labyrinthine but we got used to it(its also made almost entirely of aluminum but thats its own post) However the longterm effects on the hull were really bad. By the end the hulls were warping and the sea keeping was being affected in big ways. They tried to modernize and repair them but most ran waaay over time and budget because of all the issues they had and thus are being decommisioned. I had to cover down for a ship that couldn't handle 10 foot waves in the middle of the ocean because of a leaky fuel tank.
@@ceberskie119 Thanks man! That's great info
@@ceberskie119 Just curious, but which one was it? Been on two myself, and one was constantly needing repairs, it was mostly duct tape by the time we decom'd it, so just wondering if it was us at that point.
I personally think the US/NATO wins the engagement. If this timeline you’ve set up has a ship classes multiplied by a factor of 2.5, then the US has plenty more Ticonderoga class cruisers (if 27 Ticonderoga were built IRL, and were multiplying by a factor of 2.5, that means the US has about 68 Ticonderoga class cruisers). However, the Soviets most likely cannot afford to replace these losses, given the sheer size and expense it would take to make another Kirov
Fire the TLAMs, if you have some, in advance of the TASMs, at coordinates slightly behind the enemy formation. They will effectively work as decoys, or SAM sponges if you prefer.
I like how the NTU makes the US SAMs a lot more realistic in their performance.
you cant target ships with TLAMs but you can designate a bit of sea so they fire. you can use them as decoys to improve the chance that your TSAMs get through, though you'd have to do that manually
Clever!
Raytheon stock: +2,000pts
This is what i did 2 days ago, just the numbers were different, and boy did the game lagged !!
Tigons were 27 in service at one point. So this is a fraction of what the US could have deployed. Imagine all 27 of them working together!
I wish we could choose the Tomahawk versions. On the Iowa especially
Are the Ticonderogas fast enough to outrun the Kirovs after the missile engagement?
If the Ticonderogas can retire from the battlefield they can call it a win. If not then things like the range of their guns and torpedos will start to matter.
The Kirovs can't fire their guns direct forward, the Ticos have a rear 127mm.
I enjoy your videos, can you order your ships so go faster in this game? I grit my teeth watching major combatants idling along at 8 knots lol
The standard missle can be used as Anti Surface
Press F to pay respects to Stealth's PC
PC was fine. The game just ran slower
was fun to watch
Should've added a tiny little widget in the bottom corner showing cpu usage and cpu temp 😂
Those are not the problem. The game is poorly optimized (At the moment) and this means that my CPU/GPU are not doing much. Hopefully this will get optimized because it makes larger scenarios difficult/impossible to play without the game becoming a slideshow.
The only issue is that only one Kirov is labeled hostile
Hey 1 question how can you control both teams? Like you can control the ai
If you use the dev tool then yes
How are you controlling both sides?
Press F10 - go to the AI tab and use "Select unit"
Kirovs chasing other ships is an interesting idea. Their range at ~30kn isn't great - they need to burn dino juice to hit that speed. (CONAG?). Eventually, yes they can run the Ticos down but that assumes the ocean is otherwise empty. Likewise, the Ticos chasing Kirovs that still have their AK-130s working isn't such a fantastic idea, either.
NATO ships, and US ships in particular of this era did an odd combination of problem-solving within any given hull. Some were clearly SAM buckets, while others it was less well-defined just what the ship was meant to do. Maybe try a combination closer to a fleet. Kirov, Slava, Sovrem, Kashin, Udaloy, Kresta... etc vs CF Adams, Brooklyn, Spruance, Virginia, VLS Tico... OR take all the VLS ships out totally so it's less of a missile-fest.
There will still be plenty of vampires.
These sims don't prove anything - but to me they do strongly suggest that the varied fortunes of war will be every bit as much a deciding factor as the weapons or even the people behind them.
With How CIWS works for the russians , Densly packed battlegroups with lots and lots of OSA and 1 or 2 S300fs Are practically impenetrable without Jamming
silex is a much less potent asm, also rim-66 has a ASUW mode and the 5 inch guns on the ticos outrage the guns on the kirov
i kid you not, i did just those yesterday
There is one thing the tomahawk had a range of over 1,000 miles give or take that is from the capital of Pennsylvania to about the middle of Florida. The tomahawk far outranges the anything the Russians had
Now ad a "money tracker" on how much this engagement costed us
Hi, what mod are you using for the UI ? Cheers
No mod. Only NTU and I think that changes designations of weapons, not the UI
@Stealth17Gaming at the 23 to 25 second mark there a grey menu box / formation control window that I have never seen in game. Is that a mod or something I have just never seen ?
Cheers
@@neilloach1876 Oh that is the dev console. You can get to that by pressing F10. I use it for camera control and to create experiments such as these.
Time to upgrade to AM5
Bro really said "10 VLS-Tico's, and I'll raise you 10 Kirovs with missiles that yap to eachother at supersonic speeds"😭🙏🏼
10 vs 10? Why not in ratio of how many there were in the navies? If ever into a war time situation I am sure the usa would have gone after it with at least 8 or so...
Because the game would utterly fail to be anything but a slideshow then
So is this mod more realistic or less?
Before I answer that, I have to caveat with ‘I don’t claim to be an expert on naval warfare, but I do like to read.’. To my knowledge, the game is based around the worlds navies up until mid-1985, if that is what this question is based on, then the mod is not realistic…because the first VLS Ticonderoga didn’t come in service until 1986. In my opinion, that is why the game is based on 1985 naval power, because the twin arm launcher Ticonderoga with AEGIS that is in the vanilla game, that was in use in 1985, is already a pretty potent anti-air and anti-missile ship, especially when you’ve got a couple other decent missile ships in your formation. (Although I don’t believe the game models just how good AEGIS is in comparison to other systems very well. UNCLAS AEGIS can simultaneously identify, categorize, prioritize, and engage over 100 targets autonomously, not only using the missile systems on the AEGIS equipped ship, but also any other allied missile systems in range. Today, it’s still probably the best system at what it does in the world, although it’s got a few contenders, in the 1980’s, nothing came close.) If the game was based on ships 1986 -1990, and included AEGIS VLS Ticonderoga’s, and allowed them to be as good as they were (and still are.), it would destroy any aspect of balance in the game, because even up to current day, there’s not much you can do to sink a ship that, without any other ships, can identify, categorize, prioritize and engage with 90 missiles out to 80 miles in under a minute.
So, if you discount that the game is specifically based in 1985, and you allow late 80’s technology to be put into the mix, then it the mod does make it more realistic.
@cnf6045 thanks for this excellent answer. o7
I think the Tico's won because if Russia did try to close in the Tico's would just avoid them
Shooting down things with guns is something we have seen recently against the Houthi's. Here a Danish warship switches to guns when its air targeting radar malfunctions as it is being attacked by 4 drones; ruclips.net/video/-daGXN_t7aQ/видео.html (subtitles in English, runtime 1m 26 sec)
"Zero zero zero" are my balls
Guess this proves that in this game, Russian missile ships reign supreme. If only they could actually have a fraction of this IRL.
Anyway, can you do a scenario like this with subs, or fighters?
10 subs vs 10 subs? Madhouse
@Stealth17Gaming ok, 5 subs?
If only the Russians could afford to build more than four kirovs lol
I don't know why you are saying "Kirov" with a French accent, but I shall accept it.
Stealth: That’s a lot of shipwrecks
My Brain: US group has so many SM2
Nato definetly won this irl the soviets would likely turn around or faulter and nato would have time to bring more air and sea assets to attack them. You have to remember just how many ocean going warships nato could muster comparatively to the soviet navy. i do not consider soviet missile boats with the sole purpose of running in and firing off 4 missiles as ocean going in this count even if they can go into the oceans.
That's AEGIS for you, a bit of a shame that the TASMs and Harpoons only scored two kills on the Kirovs (Soviet CIWS seems a little bit too OP imo, but whatever).
I'm interested in other different scenarios with the mod, especially the NTU specific ships that essentially been upgraded to have a form of AEGIS.
Fun scenario but only 4 Kirov's existed. Maybe a mix of Kirov's, Slava's and Kara/Kresta would be a "realistic" scenario
Blue offensive AI seems pretty bored.
Russians are waaaay OP in this gsme. Idek if it can be called a sim.
Are they? Look at the date of the scenarios.
Current performance is not historical performance.
Also, this is using a mod.
The Soviets didn't have anything potent at the time, so the devs gave them an edge to match the USN. How you use the Soviet fleet determines if they're OP.
To me it seems like the harpoons are harpooning themselves and seem cheap if this is a real thing it's a joke these harpoons
Crap missiles getting knocked out like quick no jamming on them and stupid
i like cheese
Why didn't the Ticos mag-dump against the Kirovs at the start?
Because Sea Power gonna Sea Power.
He hasn't set the enemy formation as hostile therefor they were classed as unknown ant not shot at.
@schniggolp2795
Hmmm.
Might explain other vids where similar things happened.
Fair enough.
That seems to be how the AI does things. The Kirov's held back their salvos too and didn't fully unload their shipwrecks in one horrifying barrage. Seems like the AI is just conservative with anti ship missiles and most other scenarios I've seen the AI behaves similarly
@wunderstein8224
I look forward to a mod which makes the AI go - "Launch them. Launch them all."
Nice missile shootout. I think the Kirov's actual capability is largely exaggerated of not only targeting ships with their SSN-19s but its doubtful their true intercept rate is that good looking at how 2 Ukrainian Neptune cruise missiles were able to slip past the Moskva's defenses and score direct hits to sink it. The VLS Ticos main purpose is air cover for task force formations and they carry more missiles (122) than the Arleigh Burke DDGs (96). While the Ticos don't really carry much for offensive firepower, they were designed for defense.
El día que Ucrania atacó el Moscú los sistemas de defensa aérea no funcionaron ni siquiera los de corto alcance ni de punto..ese día había una tormenta enorme nadie sabe lo que pasó y creer lo que la versión de Ucrania 😂😂😂es realimente ser idiota
Moskva couldn't defend itself due to the multiple failures onboard, if the admiral didn't ignore the reports, Moskva would have defeated those Neptunes with ease.
the fact you had to tell the AI to turn it's own radar on tells everyone what they need to know about this game in it's current state
not a fan of the mod
Overpowering one side to the point of easy kill makes the game, and this video, just boring.
But they didn't overpower and it certainly wasn't easy. Did you actually watch the video?
@@Stealth17Gaming it's also quite cinematic to just watch the trails and the ammounts of missiles in the air.
You don't have to watch it buddy, you have free will
@@Stealth17Gaming I watched it till the very end. You mentioned it yourself that the Ticos’ missiles had longer range with the mod. Their rate of SAM fire was also 10 times that of the Kirovs. Heck they got a supersonic missile with the gun!!!???!!!??? And how do you explain the Kirovs having 960 anti air missiles and they fired what? 100? And they fired at 10 miles? The Ticos were spamming missile launches while the Kirovs were… having coffee? My beef is not with you. I like your videos. But the mod developers. They should take a long hard look at their mod. I respect all the hard work they put in bringing modern weapons to the game. I am disappointed in the way they unbalance the game.
To be clear. I was talking about the disparity between the A/A response. Aggressive on the Tico side. Very sluggish on the Kirov side.