Marine archeologist 2000 years later: Although the blast damage indicates a torpedo impact, the location of the damage disproves this theory. We can only theorize what as of yet undiscovered weapon the ancient Americans used against this ship.
You can use the land attack version as a decoy to force the enemy ships to waste their AA missles. Just target behind the enemy ships and it will fly over them. Then send your anti ship behind the land attacks
Came here to say this. I’ve only seen it done once but they do work as decoys. Enemy AI can’t tell a TLAM from a TASM so they engage everyone. What I haven’t seen done and somebody suggested was firing them in a spread like World War II era torpedoes and seeing if one of them gets a lucky hit on a ship that’s in its way.
@@tjh8402 I think the ai can tell. I tried this once and the ai picked out the TASMs that were actually slightly behind the TLAMs. After they shot all the TASMs down, they shot whatever TLAMs they could.
This, I do it with the Iowa in base game. Just make sure to fire ships 1st. They do that snake and will get their slower than staight shot land attacks. Least for long range shots. Also not sure if AI is smart enough to fire at the B's 1st or not? It seems so but it could be from them have targeting bias to ships targeting themselves vs and area? Or "forward" aka incoming missiles over ones that are past it. Still work amazing as decoys though.
I wish the devs would fix the way the torpedoes work against surface vessels and submarines. Most torpedoes post-WW 2 did not actually directly hit the ship or submarine but exploded either a certain distance underneath a ship or in the case of submarines when they were within certain proximity of it.
Kirov has vls all over and amazing air defense. This scenario u made was very well done 👍 its fun when u give the soviets alot more ships when using ntu to try to keep thr balance.i dont have a pc to play. So watching is very fun for me.
As far as I am aware RBUs defeating torps in a real life scenario was considered unlikley. I don't know the specific factors that go into making that the case (though I could speculate on a few) but it seems as though it was not thought to be a significant threat to the torp. The rate at which they get hit in Sea Power is likely quite a bit higher than expected in reality
Unlikely > No defense at all. I've always wondered why an incoming heavy torpedo couldn't be intercepted with a ship borne lightweight torpedo like the Mk46. Seems like it should be doable if you had the right software upgrades.
It’s not that great in sea power either. I played the mission with the 3 redfor ships with no heli vs a NATO sub, you really can’t do much to stop them from launching a torpedo. I had to retry a bunch, I think I only ever got one torpedo with the rurs even when I was getting multiple salvos from multiple ships on a single torpedo. I don’t know how it’s modeled, but if it’s realistic, that intercept rate would only go lower against the faster ADCAPs.
Modern RBUs can fire homing depth charge rockets (the 90R rocket, which guides itself downwards through the water, I believe) which have a much better chance of torpedo interception, but they only entered service in 1991. They would be a cool thing to add for a possible Soviet equivalent of the NTU mod, actually, although I'm not sure how they'd be implemented.
Hello, friend. A nice scenario, I like it. You eliminated two out of three serious threats, one Slava and the Kirov. You guessed very well, the enemy of both those classes are the submarines, with their torpedoes. Two torpedoes at the back are their doom, because the RBUs are in the front. So, the next Slava is to be hit from the back with torpedoes. For the missile attack, there are many strategies, I suggest a three-stage one, with the LA Tomahawks as the decoy in the center to expend the anti-missile defenses, then the Harpoons at the side to strike less capable ships in the air defense and lastly the anti-ship Tomahawks to strike the big vessels as a wave. Have a nice time.
It shouldn’t matter given how weakened the air defense is, but I would say that tomahawks are significantly easier to intercept than harpoons. They are the same speed (roughly) and significantly larger. I have found from experience that, against capable air defense, you could need double (or even more) the tomahawks to get through compared to harpoons.
Yeah, having the RBUs mounted forwards seems to be a bit of a tactical weakness in torpedo defense because in a situation where the torpedo is closing from astern they'd be most effective against it (since the relative speed is only 20-25 knots instead of like, 80).
If they made this mod, it would be nice if they included SH60Bs in it. Being able to launch Penguin anti-ship missiles from helos is a huge force multiplier.
Does the NTU mod update the US ships and helos to the mod5 version of Mk46 torpedo (came out in about 1985), which is capable of attacking surface ships? It should be a great way to finish off wounded ships or finish up a battle after everyone has run out of antiship missiles. It also gives pre Penguin equipped LAMPS helos an actual anti surface capability.
@@nuclearstonk That's awesome, I was hoping someone would add the Mk5 surface engagement capability at some point. Big force multiplier for the LAMPS II and pre Penguin LAMPS III helos.
@@Fury-161 no, given ASROC uses the original Mk46 torpedo, but the next update will include a ticonderoga loadout with VL-ASROC with the anti-ship capable Mod 5 Mk46
@@nuclearstonk Awesome. Can it engage at the full range of the ASROC+Torpedo? IOW, can you shoot it at a ship or sub from about a dozen miles away, or just the six miles of the Rocket itself?
I noticed on her screws that they stopped right after the torpedo hit. And it also looks like it was a rudder hit too. So yeah. I think she is flooding through the seals on the shafts, but I also think her engine rooms got knocked out by the blast
RBU-6000 was pretty good against the slow-moving sub since, during the time of flight of the rocket, the sub it was firing to did not move much. Still, against ADCAP with 55knt, by the time the rockets arrive, it pretty much landed in a place where the torpedo WAS, not currently, even with them calculating the trajectory (since Mk 48 is homing, not a straight running torpedo). However, there is still a chance for interception. Either way, since ADCAP is both farther, faster, and more sensor range. If you remove the SAG, I still think that Los Angeles would sink quite a lot of the Soviet surface fleet before itself got hit and destroyed, especially with dog-legging torpedoes. Nice scenario, Stealth! Can't wait to see more of this scenarios!
If u can use ntu to to blance scenarios like this where there evenly matched or atleast close. It makes it fun to watch. This was exactly what i eas thinking when using ntu mod. Thanks great content
I really like the NTU mod, but holy cow are those SM-2 ranges way longer than what is listed by Wiki and most common sources. (The modder stated he is using Friedman as his source) According to wiki, range of the SM2MR Block II is a little under 70 nautical miles (vs about 90nm for the current IIIB version). Actual range of the SM2ER Block II (NTU missile) is about 100 nautical miles (vs about 200nm for the block IV version, of which only about 130 were built before cancellation). On a side note: The current IIIB version is vastly superior to all other versions of SM-2 because it has a IIR seeker for terminal homing, therefore it does not require terminal illumination and can also attack moving surface targets over the radar horizon.
block II and block III have identical ranges of 90nm as published by raytheon, given they have the same trajectory and same rocket motor (thiokol Mk104) SM-2ER RIM-67C and D both have kinematic ranges of over 200nm as published by friedman, but are fire control limited to just under 110nm (this is simulated in NTU)
@@nuclearstonk I just posted the publicly available specifications above (as per wiki and numerous other sources). There is a lot more to a missile's range than the booster and or rocket engine. Autopilot software and inflight profiles have a huge impact on this as well (seeker sensitivity and homing modes can also play a role in this as well, for instance TVM has significantly greater sensitivity to FCR emissions than standard SARH) SM2MR IIIB has about 50% more range than Block II for these reasons. Are you the modder who made the NTU update?
@@Valorius yes i am, and from norman friedman's World Naval Weapons 1989 i acquired my data for SM-2's range (which lists Block II SM-2MR as the same range as block I SM-2ER, and lists Block II/III SM-2ER as twice that of Block I) and data for a couple dozen other weapons, the devs themselves use his books as a source for their data as well
Another issue for realism. You cannot be reloading your torpedo tubes while you are guiding torpedoes with the wires. The reel remains in the tube. You have to cut the wires before you can drain and reload the tubes.
@@havocsquad1 That's a lot more lenient than in Cold Waters then! There, even at five knots laying in full rudder or full planes (or worse, both at once) has a high risk of losing the wires, and I think at ahead standard (15 knots in the 688) you are basically guaranteed to lose them.
Forgive me for asking, but is that a mod for the HUD UI looking a little different? specifically when you hover over the weapons. Or is it some newer version of the game that I dont see on mine? I noticed this on your last couple of videos
Just an FYI.... NTU is New Threat Upgrade, not Next Threat Upgrade. And Yes I know they're just using that for the name of the Mod but in reality it has nothing to do with Ticonderogas and such. It was an upgrade to older ships to make them comparable and on par with the new Aegis system on the Ticonderogas. Such as the Leahy's and Belknaps getting SM-2 to replace SM-1, and a combat direction system close to equality of Aegis After the NTU, leahy class cruisers were actually in some respects, greater than the Aegis systems on Ticonderogas. I served on Halsey, A Leahy class cruiser which received the NTU. She was decommissioned in 94.
I like to fire the TLAMs first as cover for the TASMs to fallow right behind them. Is it a waste of weapons? Probably but it provides a better chance of them getting though
It skews the balance if you don't introduce the type of weaponry the soviets had in the numbers they had that made NATO create the NTU weapons in the first place. Against a single smallish fleet like this video? Only got to blow up a couple dozen missiles and the threat is gone. Not too hard with an NTU Tico and NTU Spruance fleet. Against a full squadron of 30 Backfire bombers? Not so easy.
@@bigpoppa1234 Exactly. NTU is so a fleet can take on a huge salvo of SS-N-19s and 12s simultaneously, or a massive multi-regiment backfire raid. Now you can actually do the "Dance with the Vampires" scenario from Red Storm Rising and have a prayer of surviving.
Oh boy, the Americans are winning, shocking... Why don't you spread out your SAG and have the outboard hulls stream large scale noise makers to mask the capital centers? Why don't you quadruple the number of ASW units? Four Udaloys on each flank with 2 at 10km and 2 at 20km four as a lead screen with 2 at 20km and 2 at 40 km, with an SSN attached to each? Plus 2 more as TACs. Why don't you assign a screen of 10X V3/Sierra/Akula class subs and force the LA boat/s to run the gauntlet? These should be at least 1 CZ out from the SAG and each other. Why not deploy Tu-142 or Il-38 to provide ranged ASW screens like we would do with Orions? Why don't you allow more than a robot to play the Red Force? Why not dare postulate what an SS-N-20 strike by a Typhoon, using conventional warheads in the 5,000lb range, might look like if airburst over Guams facilities? You lose the satcomms, you lose the SOSUS relay, you lose all the open ramp heavies, you lose the AGE, your lose the bomb dump, you lose the above ground tank farm. Including the P-3s and B-52G with Harpoon. Pre-Orezhnik CICBM on a DT trajectory, launched from anywhere within a 1,000nm radius. Invading Guam is silly. It's flat. It's tiny. You cannot reinforce or bunker down on it because EITHER SIDE can flatten it. The Americans will just put a string of nukes on it and say it's their island and it's in the middle of the ocean, far from anyone so they can do what they want with it. Or they can do the same with B-52s and strings of Mk.82 from the Bozosphere. Have you got a plan what you are going to do when you go to zero knots in the amphib anchorage? The Russians aren't stupid. And all of their major ASCM also have land attack modes, with or without nukes. Including those sub and air launched, even in this era. The VMF is optimized to protect their boomer bastions and barns and to do limited littoral operations (taking Bodo/Bardufoss for instance) in peripheral support of a larger, NATO, war. All their blue water stuff is oriented around subs and Tu-22M bomber strikes by Regimental or Divisional sized constructs. Where are those? What you've done here is Gary Stu'd your favorite comic book hero and then written a one chapter fanfic in which he/it/you saves the world, fixes everything wrong with it and then wins the lottery before retiring to marry himself because nobody else could be as perfect. If you're really going to do this, and _it is a Mission Impossible given the distances involved_, at least make it hard.
@@ilyush_1 Confirmation bias is lethal. It encourages presumptive superiority that the enemy is inferior by nature rather than by position or circumstance. And then you find yourself locked in a war with an Redfor that doesn't match the Opfor that was supposed to represent it. As, suddenly, all those nasty things which Van Riper tried to warn you about in Millenium Challenge 2002 come true, where the other side is not weak and/or is willing to employ forces in unexpected ways while enduring losses which would break a NATO formation and now you are stuck losing an attrition war because you forgot that Hollywood only has 90 minutes to entertain you, but defeat is forever and the Russians know what it's like to lose, badly, over and over again, to Nazis. Until even victory is a bloody contemplation. While you can make the argument that it's 'just a game' the counterpoint is that this mission is a more akin to an advertising cinematic than a contested scenario and thus is neither 'fun' nor educational. Educational in that, with tactics, and orbat balancing (NTU is a major change in technology levels from the 1970s optimized original, balanced, force) almost any engagement can be flipped. What if the enemy employees nuclear Starfish/Stallion systems? Are those going to blow out inbound torpedoes? Kirov has them, as indeed does any surface combatant with a 533mm tubes. And they go a lot farther than ASROC. Or what about the UDAV? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udav-1_anti-submarine_system Drop mines into water and detonate a series of shaped charges in tubes which create a collective 'water hammer' effect of 2,000psi instantaneous shock. And because these are pre-dropped rather than reactive via mortar, they go off via proximity fuse which means the torpedo takes an enormous drubbing from nt one near miss but potentially many hydrostatic shocks as it gets close. Not a shotgun effect like an RBU-6000 but more like a minefield. Do it right. So that victory is earned. Then play the other side and beat your own tactics. If you cannot win from both sides, you know that the scenario is unbalanced and needs to be reconfigured. This is how you come to know your enemy as the heart of battle.
1. That's every single Udaloy in the entire Soviet navy lol, which I seriously doubt they would have in one place at once. 2. I don't think Sea Power can do 'stream large outboard noise-makers' yet. 3. Same issue as with the Udaloys, probably. Or something like it. 4. That is a fair point, I suspect it's because those also have surface search radars meaning that the SAG is cooked if it gets into Granit range (since the Soviet fleet otherwise would struggle to pick up the SAG on radar). 5. The game literally can't do 'more than a robot to play the Red Force' 6. I don't think the SS-N-20 is currently in game, I know the Typhoon isn't. 7 and 8. That may be true, perhaps Hawaii would be a better target, but this is a _scenario_ . 9. Not in game, most of them don't. 10 and 11. The VMF is. The Soviet Navy was a little different doctrinally, as evidenced by the existence of things like the Kirovs (which are dedicated anti-surface combatants designed to go after NATO SAGs, and don't really make sense in the context of 'limited littoral operations' considering how f*cking massive and presumably expensive they are). That being said, more Soviet long range AShM bomber action would be interesting. 12. Lmao. 13. There's a difference between making it hard and basically giving the Soviets a 'win by ICBM' button and an effectively completely impenetrable ASW screen.
@taiko1237 Thanks for replying. 1. Andersen Field is about 2,400nm from Vladivostok. Think about the Bismark. And the Yamato. Dude, they aren't gonna make it with that kind of tiny escort group. And it's not like the Russians haven't come halfway around the world to go nose to nose with an Asian navy (Tsushima). They lost but still... 2. Then they shouldn't have published. Because the absence of large-scale EW is what makes DCS a ball busting experience where 'I know! Chaff and Notch!' is ridiculously overpowered. The SLQ-17 and SLQ-32 and it's SEWIP descendants are a large part of what the USN is depending on to save them from DF-21s by 'misrepresenting' GPS/GLONASS/BeiDou GNSS. Thats 10,000 miles up in space. Comparatively, grabbing a couple seeker bands on the way in or down and giving them a right good rattling should be simple. We also had the EA-6B. The Soviets had similar Rum Tub and Side Globe jammers for their heavies along with an entire range of PK-2/6/10 expendable decoys as 'not just SRBOC'. Where are they? Where is the ability to schedule jamming and radar bands through the AEGIS? Where is the SLQ-49? Where is the Mk.53 Nulka? _Where is the SLQ-25 Nixie?_ Even if it's just a random number generator it should be there. As should the penchant for rigging up old cutters with signature enhancers and playback tapes while juggling the formation geometries around to make the battle group center be a snake pit of deceptive rattle. While the actual carrier is over there on the corner of the escort line. It's tricky but it's how we do things and it's in the public domain or I wouldn't know about it. 3. Sir, in 1988, the Soviets had 88 nuke boats. In 1992, a year after dissolution of the USSR, they had 59. Today, they have 13. Whateve era you're representing, take those numbers and split them in half. And apply them. Because here's the thing: The USN boats don't have to fight the Russians to get inside and shoot up the SAG. Indeed it might be a bad idea. But someone has to (P-3C, TASM targeter) and if you accept that the 'fun factor' derives from not coasting in because the only SSNs are all on the far side of the fleet right now, then having whatever is available in the Pacific Fleet OrBat sortie out is going to add to the difficulty and action and sense of accomplishment. Again, this is a _suicide run_ no matter what. How close you get to your MA objective when playing the Russian side is going to be about how long you can keep the USN submarine fleet out of your core battlegroup. 4. Not sure what you mean? The Il-38 is an ASW plane that looks a lot like the P-3C. The Tu-142 is a Bear MPA mod with ASW options. 5. I've seen Grim Reapers play the Soviet Side at the flip of a switch. The point is, if your won't do it, SOMEONE needs to give you a hot wash on playability and fun-not-fun level. From the other side. 6. Well, the Delta is a bit early for the concept I'm thinking of so that's that. The Soviets were working on a conventional ICBM because they saw the power of being able to target off a RORSAT and hit, from a timezone uprange, in about 5 minutes. The weapon concept was called SS-NX-24 Scorpion and AS-19 Koala and came in both powered and unpowered variants then known as Kh-80. If you can hit aa moving ship, you can hit a static island. 7. Hawaii is even further away and would beget an all-hands response. If you've ever read Clancy's _Red Storm Rising_, the attacks on Northern Norway (which also included a Kirov) and those on Iceland come to mind. The Soviets had almost no aerial refueling tankers (handful of Mya-4 and a perhaps a dozen Il-78 Midas) and thus no ability to do an air bridge with fuel etc. to top off Iceland. Something which you have to plan for on the off chance the garrison there manages to take out Keflavik's and Reykjavik's underground fuel storage. That means at least one escorted naval convoy and while it's fairly simple to do (in summer) with an across and down dogleg from the North Cape to the ice shelf and into Iceland proper (vice the GIUK gap) it would still be high risk. Similarly, to take Norway's northern airbases is to deny easy Habu/U-2 surveillance of the Olenya/Monchegorsk areas which would otherwise require a considerable amount of retask (as fuel burn) on the Keyholes. 8. You don't understand, the Kirovs are _carrier replacements_ as massive AAW escorts and battlegroup leader platforms for Udaloy and Krivak class ASW hunters. Yes, they can clean the clock of a CSG or even CVBG that is dumb enough to enter the Norwegian Sea but so can a Slava and the Slava doesn't need the 'two of everything' (Top Plate, Top Steer, Top Dome, along with the Aegis equivalent Lesorub-44 battle management system). You put these in the approaches to the Kola and Severomorsk as block forces and let the rest of the SSNs go north, under the ice. Leaving the entire Barent's Sea as a bastion for the boomers. Add to this that the Legenda has limited (coastal) land mapping capability and the Shiprwrecks have both unitary and FAE land attack options and you have the makings of a passing fair beachhead or coastal naval installation bombardment platform. Far better than as a blue water strike cruiser, operating beyond the coverage of landbased airpower, without a hope in the world of getting past the USN screens of multiple SSN. People don't seem to realize it but a NATO/WARPAC confrontation would not have lasted long enough for serious blue water action to develop. There were 10 Armies in GSFG, three Tank and six Shock plus an Air and Headquarters for three more which would have rolled in from the Soviet Western TVDs in Ukraine and Russia proper, in a few days from call-up. If you think of the pathetic remnants of what is in Ukraine right now as equaling one such army in a giant country with next to no road net, compared to the excellent super highway and Route systems of a veritable shoe box sized Germany, it becomes giggleable. Once you break out of Fulda, it's a about a 3hr trip down Route 4 to Bonn. They would have stomped our gahoolies from the first day. With multiple breakouts of division sized OMG and likely calls for Lance and AFAP within hours. Without the employment of atomic arms, Soviet generals would have been sipping Kaf and eating Waffels in Brussels by the end of the first week. It was one of those 'Hey Gyorgi?' 'Yes Ivan?' 'Who won the airwar anyway?' In that scenario, the ability of Soviet or American forces to even sortie is going to depend on a whole lot of strategic tells which may or may not be obvious. In this scenario, why would you employ Kh-22 as a '1 Regiment : 1 Carrier' sacrificial force against non-existent REFORGER convoys and CVBGs that are weeks away from sailing and/or scattered across the Second and Sixth fleet AORs when you could divide that same AVMF force in thirds and use them behind a wall of Frontal Aviation meat shield fighters to simply wipe out the Hawk Belt, the POMCUS depots and the deep airbases in the Benelux, Denmark, Norway and England with perhaps double the sortie rates (operating from Engels and Shaykovka) and 1/100th the sortie attrition rates? At that 'everything to the center', main effort accelerated, fight across the North German Plain, timelines for terrain go almost vertical. And the Soviets knew this, which is why they did not invest in Carriers as symbols of martial ego in projecting power outside their SOI. But they had to have something to cover the ASW ships protecting their submarine ballistic deterrent, deny the Americans routine recce of their far north (for nuke strike purposes) and perhaps to advance a few cruise shooters down the Norwegian coast to Blast Blightey, from the approaches side. We accomplished something similar, using AEGIS, but always as a defensive AAW bodyguard for longer reaching fighters and attackers from the carrier airwings. The Soviets were not trying to break in CVBGs, but to keep them out. And their principal tool for doing so was: submarines. Which could be prepositioned, covertly, before war start, based on operational insights handed over by the Walkers and increasingly by techint exploitation as provided by the Norwegians and Japanese (six axis propeller milling machines). IMO, you are misusing the Kirov as an unsupported offensive strike platform. The Soviets had too much respect for the NATO submarine fleets in particular to have operated Kirovs without major supporting assets (A-50 and MiG-31 to deny NATO ASST (for B-52G Harpoon strikes) and friendly HK screens to stiff arm other SSNs) which, in turn, would have meant never being very far from their coasts, as AAW protectors and battlegroup command assets for ASW hulls. The Kirovs protect the Udaloys and the Krivaks, not the other way around.
![Defending Guam From Invasion - Dominion Shield [NTU Mod] 2/2 - SEA POWER](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q8zSHq4GkJc/mqdefault.jpg)
![Defending Guam From Invasion - Dominion Shield [NTU Mod] 2/2 - SEA POWER](/img/tr.png)
26:00 - Finally, top attack Mk 48.
Marine archeologist 2000 years later: Although the blast damage indicates a torpedo impact, the location of the damage disproves this theory. We can only theorize what as of yet undiscovered weapon the ancient Americans used against this ship.
@@ryanpayne7707They dropped a really big RPG warhead on it.
You can use the land attack version as a decoy to force the enemy ships to waste their AA missles. Just target behind the enemy ships and it will fly over them. Then send your anti ship behind the land attacks
Came here to say this. I’ve only seen it done once but they do work as decoys. Enemy AI can’t tell a TLAM from a TASM so they engage everyone. What I haven’t seen done and somebody suggested was firing them in a spread like World War II era torpedoes and seeing if one of them gets a lucky hit on a ship that’s in its way.
@@tjh8402 I think the ai can tell. I tried this once and the ai picked out the TASMs that were actually slightly behind the TLAMs. After they shot all the TASMs down, they shot whatever TLAMs they could.
This, I do it with the Iowa in base game. Just make sure to fire ships 1st. They do that snake and will get their slower than staight shot land attacks. Least for long range shots.
Also not sure if AI is smart enough to fire at the B's 1st or not? It seems so but it could be from them have targeting bias to ships targeting themselves vs and area? Or "forward" aka incoming missiles over ones that are past it.
Still work amazing as decoys though.
You know you’re having a bad day when a torpedo hits your gun deck
A single sub going against a fleet. I'm getting Cold Waters vibes.
“It will take more then one torp to eliminate the Kirov more then likely”
25:58 one torp later
I wish the devs would fix the way the torpedoes work against surface vessels and submarines. Most torpedoes post-WW 2 did not actually directly hit the ship or submarine but exploded either a certain distance underneath a ship or in the case of submarines when they were within certain proximity of it.
“On my command, unleash Hell.” Maximus Decimus Meridius
Kirov has vls all over and amazing air defense. This scenario u made was very well done 👍 its fun when u give the soviets alot more ships when using ntu to try to keep thr balance.i dont have a pc to play. So watching is very fun for me.
As far as I am aware RBUs defeating torps in a real life scenario was considered unlikley. I don't know the specific factors that go into making that the case (though I could speculate on a few) but it seems as though it was not thought to be a significant threat to the torp. The rate at which they get hit in Sea Power is likely quite a bit higher than expected in reality
Unlikely > No defense at all.
I've always wondered why an incoming heavy torpedo couldn't be intercepted with a ship borne lightweight torpedo like the Mk46. Seems like it should be doable if you had the right software upgrades.
It’s not that great in sea power either. I played the mission with the 3 redfor ships with no heli vs a NATO sub, you really can’t do much to stop them from launching a torpedo. I had to retry a bunch, I think I only ever got one torpedo with the rurs even when I was getting multiple salvos from multiple ships on a single torpedo. I don’t know how it’s modeled, but if it’s realistic, that intercept rate would only go lower against the faster ADCAPs.
Modern RBUs can fire homing depth charge rockets (the 90R rocket, which guides itself downwards through the water, I believe) which have a much better chance of torpedo interception, but they only entered service in 1991. They would be a cool thing to add for a possible Soviet equivalent of the NTU mod, actually, although I'm not sure how they'd be implemented.
Hello, friend. A nice scenario, I like it. You eliminated two out of three serious threats, one Slava and the Kirov. You guessed very well, the enemy of both those classes are the submarines, with their torpedoes. Two torpedoes at the back are their doom, because the RBUs are in the front. So, the next Slava is to be hit from the back with torpedoes. For the missile attack, there are many strategies, I suggest a three-stage one, with the LA Tomahawks as the decoy in the center to expend the anti-missile defenses, then the Harpoons at the side to strike less capable ships in the air defense and lastly the anti-ship Tomahawks to strike the big vessels as a wave. Have a nice time.
It shouldn’t matter given how weakened the air defense is, but I would say that tomahawks are significantly easier to intercept than harpoons. They are the same speed (roughly) and significantly larger. I have found from experience that, against capable air defense, you could need double (or even more) the tomahawks to get through compared to harpoons.
Yeah, having the RBUs mounted forwards seems to be a bit of a tactical weakness in torpedo defense because in a situation where the torpedo is closing from astern they'd be most effective against it (since the relative speed is only 20-25 knots instead of like, 80).
If they made this mod, it would be nice if they included SH60Bs in it. Being able to launch Penguin anti-ship missiles from helos is a huge force multiplier.
Does the NTU mod update the US ships and helos to the mod5 version of Mk46 torpedo (came out in about 1985), which is capable of attacking surface ships? It should be a great way to finish off wounded ships or finish up a battle after everyone has run out of antiship missiles. It also gives pre Penguin equipped LAMPS helos an actual anti surface capability.
yes, and also gives them anti-surface abilitie
@@nuclearstonk That's awesome, I was hoping someone would add the Mk5 surface engagement capability at some point.
Big force multiplier for the LAMPS II and pre Penguin LAMPS III helos.
@@nuclearstonk Are the ASROCs also capable of attacking surface ships now too (via the torpedo)?
@@Fury-161 no, given ASROC uses the original Mk46 torpedo, but the next update will include a ticonderoga loadout with VL-ASROC with the anti-ship capable Mod 5 Mk46
@@nuclearstonk Awesome. Can it engage at the full range of the ASROC+Torpedo? IOW, can you shoot it at a ship or sub from about a dozen miles away, or just the six miles of the Rocket itself?
the torp hit in bad spot for the kirov most likely breaching seals along the shafts and flooding both engine rooms......
I noticed on her screws that they stopped right after the torpedo hit. And it also looks like it was a rudder hit too. So yeah. I think she is flooding through the seals on the shafts, but I also think her engine rooms got knocked out by the blast
There is no good place to get hit by a Mk48, they blow up under the keel and break the ship's back.
[Dimitri looking out the sealed window of that Kirov compartment underwater when he sees a Mk.48 coming right at him] “OHHH BLYAAAAAAAT!”
RBU-6000 was pretty good against the slow-moving sub since, during the time of flight of the rocket, the sub it was firing to did not move much. Still, against ADCAP with 55knt, by the time the rockets arrive, it pretty much landed in a place where the torpedo WAS, not currently, even with them calculating the trajectory (since Mk 48 is homing, not a straight running torpedo). However, there is still a chance for interception. Either way, since ADCAP is both farther, faster, and more sensor range. If you remove the SAG, I still think that Los Angeles would sink quite a lot of the Soviet surface fleet before itself got hit and destroyed, especially with dog-legging torpedoes. Nice scenario, Stealth! Can't wait to see more of this scenarios!
The NTU mod is outstanding! It needs to be integrated into the completed game.
If u can use ntu to to blance scenarios like this where there evenly matched or atleast close. It makes it fun to watch. This was exactly what i eas thinking when using ntu mod. Thanks great content
I really like the NTU mod, but holy cow are those SM-2 ranges way longer than what is listed by Wiki and most common sources. (The modder stated he is using Friedman as his source)
According to wiki, range of the SM2MR Block II is a little under 70 nautical miles (vs about 90nm for the current IIIB version).
Actual range of the SM2ER Block II (NTU missile) is about 100 nautical miles (vs about 200nm for the block IV version, of which only about 130 were built before cancellation).
On a side note:
The current IIIB version is vastly superior to all other versions of SM-2 because it has a IIR seeker for terminal homing, therefore it does not require terminal illumination and can also attack moving surface targets over the radar horizon.
You would think looking up and using the correct (or at least published) ranges would be a simple matter for the modder.
@@SgtTechCom you would think.
block II and block III have identical ranges of 90nm as published by raytheon, given they have the same trajectory and same rocket motor (thiokol Mk104)
SM-2ER RIM-67C and D both have kinematic ranges of over 200nm as published by friedman, but are fire control limited to just under 110nm (this is simulated in NTU)
@@nuclearstonk I just posted the publicly available specifications above (as per wiki and numerous other sources).
There is a lot more to a missile's range than the booster and or rocket engine. Autopilot software and inflight profiles have a huge impact on this as well (seeker sensitivity and homing modes can also play a role in this as well, for instance TVM has significantly greater sensitivity to FCR emissions than standard SARH) SM2MR IIIB has about 50% more range than Block II for these reasons.
Are you the modder who made the NTU update?
@@Valorius yes i am, and from norman friedman's World Naval Weapons 1989 i acquired my data for SM-2's range (which lists Block II SM-2MR as the same range as block I SM-2ER, and lists Block II/III SM-2ER as twice that of Block I) and data for a couple dozen other weapons, the devs themselves use his books as a source for their data as well
Another issue for realism.
You cannot be reloading your torpedo tubes while you are guiding torpedoes with the wires.
The reel remains in the tube. You have to cut the wires before you can drain and reload the tubes.
Is there a risk to lose the wire if the sub maneuvers too much like in Cold Waters?
Wires are cut when you go over all head full or go over all ahead standard I believe or it could be a speed in knots threshold.
Yes. Not exactly sure what the limitations are. HavocSquad might be right.
@@havocsquad1 That's a lot more lenient than in Cold Waters then! There, even at five knots laying in full rudder or full planes (or worse, both at once) has a high risk of losing the wires, and I think at ahead standard (15 knots in the 688) you are basically guaranteed to lose them.
Forgive me for asking, but is that a mod for the HUD UI looking a little different? specifically when you hover over the weapons. Or is it some newer version of the game that I dont see on mine? I noticed this on your last couple of videos
I think it's just a new version of the game. They update is very frequently.
Well, well, well... I didn't see that happening.
I downloaded this mission earlier today.
Just an FYI.... NTU is New Threat Upgrade, not Next Threat Upgrade.
And Yes I know they're just using that for the name of the Mod but in reality it has nothing to do with Ticonderogas and such.
It was an upgrade to older ships to make them comparable and on par with the new Aegis system on the Ticonderogas.
Such as the Leahy's and Belknaps getting SM-2 to replace SM-1, and a combat direction system close to equality of Aegis
After the NTU, leahy class cruisers were actually in some respects, greater than the Aegis systems on Ticonderogas.
I served on Halsey, A Leahy class cruiser which received the NTU. She was decommissioned in 94.
Torpedo hit on a gun turret, that’s a first
can you manually guide the torp in like in cold waters?
If wire-guided yes
I like to fire the TLAMs first as cover for the TASMs to fallow right behind them. Is it a waste of weapons? Probably but it provides a better chance of them getting though
What’s with those weird stump things on Princeton’s VLS farms?
Remnants from the original model. I think they weren't able to remove those bits yet
Make all future missions NTU only pls
No. NTU only appeals to a small portion of the total player base. I'm not going to limit myself views-wise by just doing NTU
I think you are seriously overestimating the RBU-6000. It's ability to intercept torpedoes in real liefe would be 1 in 10 if you were very lucky.
Well, this is fun, but eventually it gets boring, takes away all the game balance. Anyways, nice scenario ! Keep Up !!
Just add more Ruskies. Game balance to me should take a complete and total backseat to actual real world capabilities.
I don't know if NTU ships’ load-outs and abilities are period-accurate, but this seriously skews balance.
That and the elevators on the carrier…
Yes it does. Some people love it, some say it breaks balance. Thankfully it's a single player game :)
It skews the balance if you don't introduce the type of weaponry the soviets had in the numbers they had that made NATO create the NTU weapons in the first place. Against a single smallish fleet like this video? Only got to blow up a couple dozen missiles and the threat is gone. Not too hard with an NTU Tico and NTU Spruance fleet. Against a full squadron of 30 Backfire bombers? Not so easy.
Realism > Balance. The USN wasn't going for "fair"
@@bigpoppa1234 Exactly. NTU is so a fleet can take on a huge salvo of SS-N-19s and 12s simultaneously, or a massive multi-regiment backfire raid.
Now you can actually do the "Dance with the Vampires" scenario from Red Storm Rising and have a prayer of surviving.
@ Depends if you want to play a game or a simulation.
It being a mod, obviously you can have both...
Oh boy, the Americans are winning, shocking...
Why don't you spread out your SAG and have the outboard hulls stream large scale noise makers to mask the capital centers?
Why don't you quadruple the number of ASW units? Four Udaloys on each flank with 2 at 10km and 2 at 20km four as a lead screen with 2 at 20km and 2 at 40 km, with an SSN attached to each? Plus 2 more as TACs.
Why don't you assign a screen of 10X V3/Sierra/Akula class subs and force the LA boat/s to run the gauntlet? These should be at least 1 CZ out from the SAG and each other.
Why not deploy Tu-142 or Il-38 to provide ranged ASW screens like we would do with Orions?
Why don't you allow more than a robot to play the Red Force?
Why not dare postulate what an SS-N-20 strike by a Typhoon, using conventional warheads in the 5,000lb range, might look like if airburst over Guams facilities? You lose the satcomms, you lose the SOSUS relay, you lose all the open ramp heavies, you lose the AGE, your lose the bomb dump, you lose the above ground tank farm. Including the P-3s and B-52G with Harpoon. Pre-Orezhnik CICBM on a DT trajectory, launched from anywhere within a 1,000nm radius.
Invading Guam is silly. It's flat. It's tiny. You cannot reinforce or bunker down on it because EITHER SIDE can flatten it.
The Americans will just put a string of nukes on it and say it's their island and it's in the middle of the ocean, far from anyone so they can do what they want with it. Or they can do the same with B-52s and strings of Mk.82 from the Bozosphere. Have you got a plan what you are going to do when you go to zero knots in the amphib anchorage?
The Russians aren't stupid. And all of their major ASCM also have land attack modes, with or without nukes. Including those sub and air launched, even in this era.
The VMF is optimized to protect their boomer bastions and barns and to do limited littoral operations (taking Bodo/Bardufoss for instance) in peripheral support of a larger, NATO, war. All their blue water stuff is oriented around subs and Tu-22M bomber strikes by Regimental or Divisional sized constructs.
Where are those?
What you've done here is Gary Stu'd your favorite comic book hero and then written a one chapter fanfic in which he/it/you saves the world, fixes everything wrong with it and then wins the lottery before retiring to marry himself because nobody else could be as perfect.
If you're really going to do this, and _it is a Mission Impossible given the distances involved_, at least make it hard.
Why are you so mad? He just made a simple mission that’s easy to play, while not being overwhelming for a single player.
@@ilyush_1
Confirmation bias is lethal. It encourages presumptive superiority that the enemy is inferior by nature rather than by position or circumstance.
And then you find yourself locked in a war with an Redfor that doesn't match the Opfor that was supposed to represent it.
As, suddenly, all those nasty things which Van Riper tried to warn you about in Millenium Challenge 2002 come true, where the other side is not weak and/or is willing to employ forces in unexpected ways while enduring losses which would break a NATO formation and now you are stuck losing an attrition war because you forgot that Hollywood only has 90 minutes to entertain you, but defeat is forever and the Russians know what it's like to lose, badly, over and over again, to Nazis.
Until even victory is a bloody contemplation.
While you can make the argument that it's 'just a game' the counterpoint is that this mission is a more akin to an advertising cinematic than a contested scenario and thus is neither 'fun' nor educational.
Educational in that, with tactics, and orbat balancing (NTU is a major change in technology levels from the 1970s optimized original, balanced, force) almost any engagement can be flipped.
What if the enemy employees nuclear Starfish/Stallion systems? Are those going to blow out inbound torpedoes? Kirov has them, as indeed does any surface combatant with a 533mm tubes. And they go a lot farther than ASROC.
Or what about the UDAV?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udav-1_anti-submarine_system
Drop mines into water and detonate a series of shaped charges in tubes which create a collective 'water hammer' effect of 2,000psi instantaneous shock.
And because these are pre-dropped rather than reactive via mortar, they go off via proximity fuse which means the torpedo takes an enormous drubbing from nt one near miss but potentially many hydrostatic shocks as it gets close.
Not a shotgun effect like an RBU-6000 but more like a minefield.
Do it right. So that victory is earned.
Then play the other side and beat your own tactics.
If you cannot win from both sides, you know that the scenario is unbalanced and needs to be reconfigured. This is how you come to know your enemy as the heart of battle.
1. That's every single Udaloy in the entire Soviet navy lol, which I seriously doubt they would have in one place at once.
2. I don't think Sea Power can do 'stream large outboard noise-makers' yet.
3. Same issue as with the Udaloys, probably. Or something like it.
4. That is a fair point, I suspect it's because those also have surface search radars meaning that the SAG is cooked if it gets into Granit range (since the Soviet fleet otherwise would struggle to pick up the SAG on radar).
5. The game literally can't do 'more than a robot to play the Red Force'
6. I don't think the SS-N-20 is currently in game, I know the Typhoon isn't.
7 and 8. That may be true, perhaps Hawaii would be a better target, but this is a _scenario_ .
9. Not in game, most of them don't.
10 and 11. The VMF is. The Soviet Navy was a little different doctrinally, as evidenced by the existence of things like the Kirovs (which are dedicated anti-surface combatants designed to go after NATO SAGs, and don't really make sense in the context of 'limited littoral operations' considering how f*cking massive and presumably expensive they are). That being said, more Soviet long range AShM bomber action would be interesting.
12. Lmao.
13. There's a difference between making it hard and basically giving the Soviets a 'win by ICBM' button and an effectively completely impenetrable ASW screen.
If you're really going to make a comment like this play the game first, assess what's available and possible and then write something more sensible.
@taiko1237
Thanks for replying.
1. Andersen Field is about 2,400nm from Vladivostok. Think about the Bismark. And the Yamato. Dude, they aren't gonna make it with that kind of tiny escort group. And it's not like the Russians haven't come halfway around the world to go nose to nose with an Asian navy (Tsushima). They lost but still...
2. Then they shouldn't have published. Because the absence of large-scale EW is what makes DCS a ball busting experience where 'I know! Chaff and Notch!' is ridiculously overpowered. The SLQ-17 and SLQ-32 and it's SEWIP descendants are a large part of what the USN is depending on to save them from DF-21s by 'misrepresenting' GPS/GLONASS/BeiDou GNSS. Thats 10,000 miles up in space. Comparatively, grabbing a couple seeker bands on the way in or down and giving them a right good rattling should be simple.
We also had the EA-6B.
The Soviets had similar Rum Tub and Side Globe jammers for their heavies along with an entire range of PK-2/6/10 expendable decoys as 'not just SRBOC'.
Where are they? Where is the ability to schedule jamming and radar bands through the AEGIS?
Where is the SLQ-49? Where is the Mk.53 Nulka? _Where is the SLQ-25 Nixie?_
Even if it's just a random number generator it should be there. As should the penchant for rigging up old cutters with signature enhancers and playback tapes while juggling the formation geometries around to make the battle group center be a snake pit of deceptive rattle. While the actual carrier is over there on the corner of the escort line.
It's tricky but it's how we do things and it's in the public domain or I wouldn't know about it.
3. Sir, in 1988, the Soviets had 88 nuke boats. In 1992, a year after dissolution of the USSR, they had 59. Today, they have 13. Whateve era you're representing, take those numbers and split them in half. And apply them. Because here's the thing: The USN boats don't have to fight the Russians to get inside and shoot up the SAG. Indeed it might be a bad idea. But someone has to (P-3C, TASM targeter) and if you accept that the 'fun factor' derives from not coasting in because the only SSNs are all on the far side of the fleet right now, then having whatever is available in the Pacific Fleet OrBat sortie out is going to add to the difficulty and action and sense of accomplishment. Again, this is a _suicide run_ no matter what. How close you get to your MA objective when playing the Russian side is going to be about how long you can keep the USN submarine fleet out of your core battlegroup.
4. Not sure what you mean? The Il-38 is an ASW plane that looks a lot like the P-3C. The Tu-142 is a Bear MPA mod with ASW options.
5. I've seen Grim Reapers play the Soviet Side at the flip of a switch. The point is, if your won't do it, SOMEONE needs to give you a hot wash on playability and fun-not-fun level. From the other side.
6. Well, the Delta is a bit early for the concept I'm thinking of so that's that. The Soviets were working on a conventional ICBM because they saw the power of being able to target off a RORSAT and hit, from a timezone uprange, in about 5 minutes. The weapon concept was called SS-NX-24 Scorpion and AS-19 Koala and came in both powered and unpowered variants then known as Kh-80.
If you can hit aa moving ship, you can hit a static island.
7. Hawaii is even further away and would beget an all-hands response. If you've ever read Clancy's _Red Storm Rising_, the attacks on Northern Norway (which also included a Kirov) and those on Iceland come to mind. The Soviets had almost no aerial refueling tankers (handful of Mya-4 and a perhaps a dozen Il-78 Midas) and thus no ability to do an air bridge with fuel etc. to top off Iceland. Something which you have to plan for on the off chance the garrison there manages to take out Keflavik's and Reykjavik's underground fuel storage.
That means at least one escorted naval convoy and while it's fairly simple to do (in summer) with an across and down dogleg from the North Cape to the ice shelf and into Iceland proper (vice the GIUK gap) it would still be high risk.
Similarly, to take Norway's northern airbases is to deny easy Habu/U-2 surveillance of the Olenya/Monchegorsk areas which would otherwise require a considerable amount of retask (as fuel burn) on the Keyholes.
8. You don't understand, the Kirovs are _carrier replacements_ as massive AAW escorts and battlegroup leader platforms for Udaloy and Krivak class ASW hunters. Yes, they can clean the clock of a CSG or even CVBG that is dumb enough to enter the Norwegian Sea but so can a Slava and the Slava doesn't need the 'two of everything' (Top Plate, Top Steer, Top Dome, along with the Aegis equivalent Lesorub-44 battle management system).
You put these in the approaches to the Kola and Severomorsk as block forces and let the rest of the SSNs go north, under the ice. Leaving the entire Barent's Sea as a bastion for the boomers.
Add to this that the Legenda has limited (coastal) land mapping capability and the Shiprwrecks have both unitary and FAE land attack options and you have the makings of a passing fair beachhead or coastal naval installation bombardment platform.
Far better than as a blue water strike cruiser, operating beyond the coverage of landbased airpower, without a hope in the world of getting past the USN screens of multiple SSN.
People don't seem to realize it but a NATO/WARPAC confrontation would not have lasted long enough for serious blue water action to develop. There were 10 Armies in GSFG, three Tank and six Shock plus an Air and Headquarters for three more which would have rolled in from the Soviet Western TVDs in Ukraine and Russia proper, in a few days from call-up.
If you think of the pathetic remnants of what is in Ukraine right now as equaling one such army in a giant country with next to no road net, compared to the excellent super highway and Route systems of a veritable shoe box sized Germany, it becomes giggleable. Once you break out of Fulda, it's a about a 3hr trip down Route 4 to Bonn.
They would have stomped our gahoolies from the first day. With multiple breakouts of division sized OMG and likely calls for Lance and AFAP within hours. Without the employment of atomic arms, Soviet generals would have been sipping Kaf and eating Waffels in Brussels by the end of the first week.
It was one of those 'Hey Gyorgi?' 'Yes Ivan?' 'Who won the airwar anyway?'
In that scenario, the ability of Soviet or American forces to even sortie is going to depend on a whole lot of strategic tells which may or may not be obvious.
In this scenario, why would you employ Kh-22 as a '1 Regiment : 1 Carrier' sacrificial force against non-existent REFORGER convoys and CVBGs that are weeks away from sailing and/or scattered across the Second and Sixth fleet AORs when you could divide that same AVMF force in thirds and use them behind a wall of Frontal Aviation meat shield fighters to simply wipe out the Hawk Belt, the POMCUS depots and the deep airbases in the Benelux, Denmark, Norway and England with perhaps double the sortie rates (operating from Engels and Shaykovka) and 1/100th the sortie attrition rates?
At that 'everything to the center', main effort accelerated, fight across the North German Plain, timelines for terrain go almost vertical. And the Soviets knew this, which is why they did not invest in Carriers as symbols of martial ego in projecting power outside their SOI.
But they had to have something to cover the ASW ships protecting their submarine ballistic deterrent, deny the Americans routine recce of their far north (for nuke strike purposes) and perhaps to advance a few cruise shooters down the Norwegian coast to Blast Blightey, from the approaches side.
We accomplished something similar, using AEGIS, but always as a defensive AAW bodyguard for longer reaching fighters and attackers from the carrier airwings. The Soviets were not trying to break in CVBGs, but to keep them out. And their principal tool for doing so was: submarines. Which could be prepositioned, covertly, before war start, based on operational insights handed over by the Walkers and increasingly by techint exploitation as provided by the Norwegians and Japanese (six axis propeller milling machines).
IMO, you are misusing the Kirov as an unsupported offensive strike platform. The Soviets had too much respect for the NATO submarine fleets in particular to have operated Kirovs without major supporting assets (A-50 and MiG-31 to deny NATO ASST (for B-52G Harpoon strikes) and friendly HK screens to stiff arm other SSNs) which, in turn, would have meant never being very far from their coasts, as AAW protectors and battlegroup command assets for ASW hulls. The Kirovs protect the Udaloys and the Krivaks, not the other way around.