If you liked this video, you’ll enjoy the additional content on our Substack! Check out our review of Jens Heycke’s book, Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire: Multiculturalism in the World’s Past and America’s Future 👇 theequianoproject.substack.com/p/multiculturalism-in-the-worlds-past
Great exchange. I had expected the discussion to focus a bit more on what works, where, and under what circumstances. My academic background is not so different from Heyke's, and I remember grad studies classes in the late 80s looking at the potentially explosive ethnic mixes in Malaysia, Indonesia, and Singapore - this is only 20 years after anti-Chinese pogroms in Indonesia, a place where there was lively chatter of break-up along ethno-religious lines in 2000 or so. But it was avoided. How? I think one factor was having "a necessary crisis" or near-miss, which focuses attention on how much there is to lose; also economic opportunity and social mobility kept delivering the goods, the status, the stake in the system, fragile as it may be; and no one outside really cared. This last point is one of the hidden advantages of Southeast Asia - no one really cares how they get on and no one's coming to help, so in the absence of a major blow-out, they have time to adapt and adjust. Not everywhere is like that. As to not learning the lessons of history... children are taught the lessons of history every day by their families, friends, teachers, clerics, tv, video games, radios, surroundings, infrastructure, weather, disasters, losses, fights, illnesses and so on. Once they turn 7, that's pretty much it, the baseline acculturation is fixed. Intergenerational trauma is nonsense, it's not passed by dna, but it is passed and made salient by family and circumstances, by language games and stories. A better history is available, but the challenge is a better present, and a framing which centers on the individual: I am me, I am not a group, the group is not me, the Other is just people like me, the Other have their stories as do I, I am not responsible for my group, he/she is not responsible for theirs, and they're not even Other... Why doesn't it sink in? Because history is boring, dry, intellectual and mostly "head". Why does tribalism persist? Because it's easy, emotional, casual, motivated, collegial, and mostly gut. It's an enormously difficult conceptual and language exercise to speak of tolerance and freedom when those appeals are to the head, rather than the essentialist heart.
@@ianl5882 thank you - I have an unusual skillset: trained in linguistics and history, worked in Asia most of my career in international development and political economy. Sometimes it's relevant.
Thank you. Really interesting conversation. The blessing and curse of forming into groups, and the problem of the Them and Us line of thinking it can lead to is something we must be constantly aware of. I think of it not unlike needing to take into account the subconscious effects of advertising and taking a moment before purchasing. We might never be able to stop the weeds from growing, but can continuously tend the garden. I don't think the situation is helped by the unnaturally large size of modern states which we've been asked to buy into only in recent centuries. Especially as the need for foundation myths and ties of "blood to land" for unification purposes tend to be unreliable, or originate from somewhere else anyway. This can be taken into account too though, ending up with a complex mess of Venn diagram circles rather than the single large circle suggested by say 19th C racial myth stories, or a pattern of small individual circles which never overlap which is I fear may be happening today.
It's a great point: white nationalists and multiculturalism believe the same thing: the most important thing about you is the race or ethnic group you're born into. Great interview!
Very interesting! There is very definitely someone who has taken this approach and written about this: Thomas Sowell, in his analysis of Sri Lanka, among other places. In Affirmative Action Around the World, and Race and Culture and other books, he did very good empirical research into this.
Bro has it right: multiculturalism has failed always and everywhere. Denmark has realized that and other countries are starting to as well. Hopefully it's not too late. Good talk Ada and Jens
I used to wear bindis. I had a British Pakistani friend who loved that I wore them and would give them to me as gifts, I later had an Indian friend who brought me some back from India. I even dated a British Egyptian muslim man who also liked me wearing them. And then I had two British born Indian women make nasty comments. One was on the tube, basically accusing me of violence. Another came from a friend’s girlfriend who told him to tell me not to wear them. I continued however, I noticed I started getting looks in London and so I stopped. I used to wear them without thinking and now I’d probably have an anxiety attack if I went out in one.
The reason people stay in a place they detest is because they can't resist the material benefits they are able to get for themselves in that place, at the same time as despising the spiritual aspects of that society.
Multiculturalism generally works. In the USA, Brazil, India, Indonesia, Singapore, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, China multiculturalism has been very successful. It failed in Europe.
@@AnAn-yn7yd It didn't fail in Europe though, this is gross misrepresentation. Would the allies have won the world wars without the common wealth and empire? The curry is now a British staple food and there are more than 1 Million mixed race people the product of mixed marriages in the UK 🇬🇧. Where is the evidence that Multiculturalism has failed?
@@AnAn-yn7yd This is history illiterate what? China is multicultural? You misunderstand what Multiculturalism is treating all cultures as equals is like 30 years old. Besides the European west none of these countries remotely entertain implementing or promoting this idea. So stupid log off
Nope black Brits don't claim a full British identity because of being othered in British society. When you leave multicultural hubs like London you are exposed to racial othering. The Windrush scandal is an example of this othering at a political level. We are very aware of our position in this country and that we are not welcome.
RUclips commenter knows more than an academic who is backed by solid data. Sure. If you feel so unwelcome, you can leave. Literally nothing is stopping you. I left the UK for a while and then returned with a newly found sense of appreciation for my country. Maybe the same will happen to you. You are, right now, nothing more than a spoilt, privileged little western brat. Your standard of living is a million times better than what the majority of citizens on earth experience. Be grateful for what you have. Gratitude goes a long way in countering resentment.
If you liked this video, you’ll enjoy the additional content on our Substack! Check out our review of Jens Heycke’s book, Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire: Multiculturalism in the World’s Past and America’s Future 👇
theequianoproject.substack.com/p/multiculturalism-in-the-worlds-past
Great interview and well-informed guest. The historical perspective on identity politics and multiculturalism is especially interesting.
Bottom line: emphasizing differences ends badly. Great interview!
Not sure why my previous comment failed to appear. Great interview!
Great exchange. I had expected the discussion to focus a bit more on what works, where, and under what circumstances. My academic background is not so different from Heyke's, and I remember grad studies classes in the late 80s looking at the potentially explosive ethnic mixes in Malaysia, Indonesia, and Singapore - this is only 20 years after anti-Chinese pogroms in Indonesia, a place where there was lively chatter of break-up along ethno-religious lines in 2000 or so. But it was avoided. How? I think one factor was having "a necessary crisis" or near-miss, which focuses attention on how much there is to lose; also economic opportunity and social mobility kept delivering the goods, the status, the stake in the system, fragile as it may be; and no one outside really cared. This last point is one of the hidden advantages of Southeast Asia - no one really cares how they get on and no one's coming to help, so in the absence of a major blow-out, they have time to adapt and adjust. Not everywhere is like that.
As to not learning the lessons of history... children are taught the lessons of history every day by their families, friends, teachers, clerics, tv, video games, radios, surroundings, infrastructure, weather, disasters, losses, fights, illnesses and so on. Once they turn 7, that's pretty much it, the baseline acculturation is fixed. Intergenerational trauma is nonsense, it's not passed by dna, but it is passed and made salient by family and circumstances, by language games and stories. A better history is available, but the challenge is a better present, and a framing which centers on the individual: I am me, I am not a group, the group is not me, the Other is just people like me, the Other have their stories as do I, I am not responsible for my group, he/she is not responsible for theirs, and they're not even Other...
Why doesn't it sink in? Because history is boring, dry, intellectual and mostly "head". Why does tribalism persist? Because it's easy, emotional, casual, motivated, collegial, and mostly gut. It's an enormously difficult conceptual and language exercise to speak of tolerance and freedom when those appeals are to the head, rather than the essentialist heart.
Impressed by your comments and knowledge. Thank you!
@@ianl5882 thank you - I have an unusual skillset: trained in linguistics and history, worked in Asia most of my career in international development and political economy. Sometimes it's relevant.
Thank you. Really interesting conversation.
The blessing and curse of forming into groups, and the problem of the Them and Us line of thinking it can lead to is something we must be constantly aware of.
I think of it not unlike needing to take into account the subconscious effects of advertising and taking a moment before purchasing. We might never be able to stop the weeds from growing, but can continuously tend the garden.
I don't think the situation is helped by the unnaturally large size of modern states which we've been asked to buy into only in recent centuries. Especially as the need for foundation myths and ties of "blood to land" for unification purposes tend to be unreliable, or originate from somewhere else anyway.
This can be taken into account too though, ending up with a complex mess of Venn diagram circles rather than the single large circle suggested by say 19th C racial myth stories, or a pattern of small individual circles which never overlap which is I fear may be happening today.
Loved every part! Thanks for not shying away from these topics 👌🏽
Glad you enjoyed it 🙂
It's a great point: white nationalists and multiculturalism believe the same thing: the most important thing about you is the race or ethnic group you're born into. Great interview!
Very interesting! There is very definitely someone who has taken this approach and written about this: Thomas Sowell, in his analysis of Sri Lanka, among other places. In Affirmative Action Around the World, and Race and Culture and other books, he did very good empirical research into this.
Great job ada
Bro has it right: multiculturalism has failed always and everywhere. Denmark has realized that and other countries are starting to as well. Hopefully it's not too late. Good talk Ada and Jens
You become what you tolerate.
👍🏻
I used to wear bindis. I had a British Pakistani friend who loved that I wore them and would give them to me as gifts, I later had an Indian friend who brought me some back from India. I even dated a British Egyptian muslim man who also liked me wearing them.
And then I had two British born Indian women make nasty comments. One was on the tube, basically accusing me of violence. Another came from a friend’s girlfriend who told him to tell me not to wear them. I continued however, I noticed I started getting looks in London and so I stopped. I used to wear them without thinking and now I’d probably have an anxiety attack if I went out in one.
i really wonder how the uk will look like in 10 years
who cares
A battle zone
The reason people stay in a place they detest is because they can't resist the material benefits they are able to get for themselves in that place, at the same time as despising the spiritual aspects of that society.
multiculturalism has failed - suella braverman
Something that is not true...🤷🏿♂️ 😪
@dugebuwembo it has failed, its served no one
Multiculturalism generally works. In the USA, Brazil, India, Indonesia, Singapore, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, China multiculturalism has been very successful.
It failed in Europe.
@@AnAn-yn7yd It didn't fail in Europe though, this is gross misrepresentation. Would the allies have won the world wars without the common wealth and empire? The curry is now a British staple food and there are more than 1 Million mixed race people the product of mixed marriages in the UK 🇬🇧. Where is the evidence that Multiculturalism has failed?
@@AnAn-yn7yd This is history illiterate what? China is multicultural? You misunderstand what Multiculturalism is treating all cultures as equals is like 30 years old. Besides the European west none of these countries remotely entertain implementing or promoting this idea. So stupid log off
Nope black Brits don't claim a full British identity because of being othered in British society. When you leave multicultural hubs like London you are exposed to racial othering. The Windrush scandal is an example of this othering at a political level.
We are very aware of our position in this country and that we are not welcome.
Do you mean that Nigerian Britons are richer and higher academically performing than ethnic English? Leading to blowback and resentment?
RUclips commenter knows more than an academic who is backed by solid data. Sure.
If you feel so unwelcome, you can leave. Literally nothing is stopping you. I left the UK for a while and then returned with a newly found sense of appreciation for my country. Maybe the same will happen to you. You are, right now, nothing more than a spoilt, privileged little western brat. Your standard of living is a million times better than what the majority of citizens on earth experience. Be grateful for what you have. Gratitude goes a long way in countering resentment.
*Meghan Markle has entered the chat* 🥲