@@darwinskeeper421 perhaps, or maybe they're are just few enough that we never saw any. The ecumenopoli like coruscant have so much unexplored territory (literally millions of times of the livable space of earth) that there could be nearly anything there alone, not to mention the rest of the galaxy. Remeber that we basically have seen rural backwaters currently under development, destroyed warzones and ecumenopolis main aerial corridors near the surface. All sorts of nonsense probably lie just off screen and if they got a product placement payout you KNOW theyd find a way to sneak it into some corner lol
While I agree that Anakin had an unhealthy obsession with Padme that certainly contributed to his fall to the dark side, I'd argue the fact that he was manipulated by Sidious over the course of 13 years was a much larger factor.
Exactly. Would you trust an all-powerful spacw wizardwho sits with people who didn't trust you and argued against you joining, or a diplomatic, kind, helpful, equally wise person who has always understood and helped you.
Perhaps he was manipulated (probably with liberal use of the Dark Side, on top of that) to obsess with Padme specifically to take advantage of their connection to put Anakin into a rock-and-a-hard-place situation emotionally. Especially since Sidious's plans for Anakin would have also taken the war into account to further pressure him in all the desired ways.
The dark side can’t be destroyed. Everyone-Forceful or not-have darkness within them. What makes a person who they are is whether or not they let it overwhelm them.
The jedi were about balance they didn't seek to eradicate the more violent aspects of existence on the contrary they welcomed them they constantly trained to master lightsaber combat and force powers because conflict and struggle were just as much a part of the force as the other more benign aspects of it.
One of my favorite scenes in the Legends EU was from the novel Yoda: Dark Rendezvous. Yoda, while making a serious and nearly successful attempt to turn Count Dooku back to the lightside, reveals that he too, the grand jedi master himself, always feels the pull of his own darkside. Which is the reason he can tell that Dooku, after all this time, still feels the pull of the light.
Do you not think there is a difference between the dark side or a rogue jedi and the Sith , the dark side cant be destroyed but the Sith order could right ?
Remember that time in comics sidious had dooku reroute an ENTIRE battalion to one hodunk planet with no strategic value just to kill one padawan and his master because they thought to test everyone in the senate for midicloreans?
Ronhar Kim and Tap Nar Pal, for those curious. The former came from Naboo and became a friend of Palpatine, while the latter is a male Cerean like Ki Adi Mundi.
@@crumb167 why would they do it sooner? We dont take blood tests of every politician. Why should they? For the one in 7 trillion chance one of them is force sensitive? And what then, what do you do then? They are too old to become jedi, being force sensitive isn't illegal. So what's the point?
Thanks, I have to admit it was nice to see a solid argument for the jedi since it seems like every edge lord on the internet is hellbent on tearing them down
I mean. 99% of people dont know shit about the jedi. Anakin thought they were basically gods in phantom menace. Most people didn't really know what a jedi even was, to most people they were just, to quote a wise man "lightsaber wielding maniacs."
Thousands of Jedi who literally saved millions of lives on-screen in the Prequels and Clone Wars and were the only force stopping the Sith from taking over the galaxy: Are we are joke to you? Also Luke who defeated the Sith by letting go of his hate like a true Jedi: Am I a joke to you?
@@ryanpiercy3390 Do you live in a relatively country free from serious oppression? Do you also acknowledge that in other countries there is oppression? If you answered yes to both these questions then congratulations, you live in an imperfect world where some people are free and others are not. The fact is, it's impossible to protect everyone because you can't go to other nations and impose your will on them even if you think you are right. So yes, slavery existed in non-Republic territories, but the Jedi don't have jurisdiction to go there and free them. But you know who eliminated slavery in the Republic? The Jedi. So I'd say they did a pretty good job of protecting people in the area they were responsible for.
@@ryanpiercy3390 let’s also consider the fact that there is basically large swathes of history of the jedi screwing up and letting multiple empires being found and plunging the galaxy in to civil war time and time again. Long story short the galaxy would be safer if the Jedi didn’t exist
I think the core issue with the Hate against the Jedi is that most people don't truly get that being a Jedi is not simply being a mere "Space Cop". Jedi are the Elite of the Elite, they're tasked with safeguarding an ENTIRE GALAXY, noy just some neighborhood. The responsibility they carry on their backs is so big, that they cannot strive towards anything less than perfect. It sounds radical but it has to be. You cannot fight pure evil with a bit of good. The problem is that most people head canon themselves as Jedi, but they don't want to give up a large percent of their humanity. They want to be the saviors of the Galaxy, but they also want their Sunday lunches with their families. In short, people want everything, and I'm sorry to break it to you, but you can't have everything in life. Life is about choice, and the Jedi choose to put everything before themselves, so much, that they're willing to give up their chance at a normal life, to keep you safe, even if you hate them. And for such selfless sacrifice, the Jedi will always have my respect, no matter how flawed they may be
Jedi would often use the line 'There is no emotion, there is peace' as a mantra when trying to calm themselves down when angry or scared. Honestly seems like clear evidence that it was less about restricting emotion and more about keeping themselves from freaking out and doing something they could regret.
I'll admit, this video did make me rethink my thoughts on the Jedi Order a bit, although I still feel like they're a little flawed. In regards to their thoughts on attachments, I completely get why they use the methods they use, although I personally believe they aren't focusing on the effects of attachments in the right way. Instead of trying to prevent/limit strong attachments to avoid the effects those attachments have on a Jedi, they should've focused on helping Jedi be able to react to such losses or fears of loss rather than leaving it to the person suffering such losses. After all, the desire to protect someone out of the fear of losing them, as well as grief and its stages, are in my opinion two of the deadliest corrupting influences a Jedi can fall to. Plus those attachments are undeniably important even though the emotions driven by them can cause the Dark Side to fester within someone, but it doesn't help when someone who HAS those kinds of attachments has no appropriate or healthy way to react to the fears of those attachments being severed or the actual severance of attachments. Anakin in my eyes doesn't just represent how important adherence to the Jedi Code really is, but also how the Jedi kind of failed to properly help Anakin, although in fairness to them, he didn't tell the Order about the things that would end up pushing him over the edge, such as the death of his mother and the fear of losing Padmé, but the point still stands that the Order could've done better with someone like Anakin. If you ask me, the Jedi were right in their ideas and most of their practices, but some practices were *just* imperfect enough to bring things crashing down.
That was what the Je'daii, the Original Order whose Philosophy was abandoned after meeting the Rakata. The Je'daii Misinterpreted the Rakata's Societal Corruption and Obsession with the most Corrupt version of the Dark Side Anyone ever Encountered (war with the Rakata changed the Sith Species' Philosophy, corrupting it Considerably) as the Only way to see the Dark Side (as they almost failed to defeat them), so I can understood their Fear of the Corruption the Dark Side is Capable of, but not their Terror, as they Already had an answer for this. The Je'daii's Shock at the Utter Depravity if the Rakata (who really were the Worst Version of the Dark Side you can think of, Vitate notwithstanding) was to form an Order Ever More Polarized than the Rakata, that decided Right from Qrong based on a Shell-shocked Order's Belief that the Only way to Prevent another group like the Rakata from Forming was to ruthlessly Hunt those who used the Dark Side in an Endless (and Extremely Misguided) Crusade to Preserve the Light from the Dark, No Matter the Cost. The Jedi have Almost Never had much interest whether those who used the Dark Side were Ignorant of its Dangers, or were doing it for Selfish Pleasure. Case in Point: Lorian Nod, who had looked into a Sith Holocron without Permission, and was Kicked Out of the Jedi Order for it, even though he was Contrite, had Thoroughly Learned his Lesson from the Experience, and would Never have done such a thing Afterwards. Nod's "Lotal Jedi" Friend, Dooku, who Ratted him out to save himself, is the Epitome of the Jedi Order's Arrogance, as he was an Anti-alien Racist and a Bigot his Entire Life, Despite his Complete Loyalty to the Order throughout the Majority of his Life.
The biggest issue I have is Yoda’s words, “Grieve not.” Geetsly claims that the Jedi never demanded lack of emotion, but the minute you deny someone the right to process through grief, or make the potential for grief the thing to be avoided, you set them up to fail. The Jedi Council were in many ways apathetic to the distress of others. They wanted to keep order, maintain the status quo (and their reputation), but I found it difficult to believe they the order as a whole actually cared about the common people. This reminds me of the zealous legalism seen all-too often in real-world religions. And it seems that was the reputation the Jedi Order was garnering from the people of the Republic by the end of the clone wars: that they were happy to enforce the will of the Senate but had no care for the distress of the people. While that was not their intent, that was what they were communicating. I do agree with Geetsly that Anakin’s relationship with Padmé was inherently unhealthy just in general; and that it was a huge part of the problem.
@@rivendells_shona It was not the will of the Senate to do anything about the Trade Federation blockade however, the Jedi willingly took up the (possibly illegal) request of Chancellor Valorum to negotiate.
I’m glad you said it so well. Their tenets may be righteous but their execution of those tenets was flawed. They tried to exclude the dark but sometimes the dark must be understood and coped-with - the Jedi fell short in terms of turning ignorance into knowledge because their fear made them into gatekeepers of necessary knowledge, trusting too few with an understanding of the darkness necessary to cope-with and resolve darkness when it takes hold.
I totally agree with you💖 instead of fearing something so much so that you go to the extremes of barricading youself inside walls and shells to protect yourself, you should instead know or learn how to deal with them in a healthy way. Instead of actually killing the sith entirely and try to erase them from existence they should've helped those who had fallen into the dark side or try to understand and see things from their points of view, to prevent repeating those same mistakes and learn from them.
That was introduced in the EU and it actually seems to contradict the films. The Jedi in the films seemed very keen on making sure younglings were treated well and would have absolutely stepped in if they saw a youngling being bullied. Because not only is it very damaging to the victim, it dangerous because the vindictive bullies themselves are potential Jedi and you simply cannot have a vindictive Jedi. If there really were bullies who were younglings, they would have either had to apologize and be kinder (as humility and kindness are key Jedi traits) or leave the Order. Because there is no way the Jedi would ever let a youngling who's a bully advance to the next rank.
@@ramarblood7697 Not at all, remember Windu, Yoda, all the decisions behind his back, limited access to the library and outrageous position on the council.
The Jedi Order were a organization that if legends were taken as truth they are older than the Galactic Republic’s itself, and no doubt they survive thru those years with knowledge of the threats that the Dark Side poses.
Legends is canon, most of it at least. Some, I'll admit, were confusing and shouldn't be canon, but most of the legends lore was amazing. Disney threw it all away just to make the trash that they call Star Wars. Really hope Dave Filoni decides to decanonize them, since he's now the head of creative decisions at lucasfilm.
Yeah but they could at least send someone to buy the Shmi Skywalker from Watto and find her a better place to live. That would make Anakin more attached to order and maybe even abandon some of his noble but illegal plans.
@@ninjaked1265 the only reason he refused to sell her was the fact that they simply could not afford to buy both Anakin and Shmi. If they sent someone with enough credits she would be free in no time. Now I think we can also blame Naboo for her fate, Anakin literally saved entire planet and they didn’t even try to return the favour.
When I consider how the Jedi are at the peak of their connection to the Light Side of the Force, I get to thinking of the ancient Greek philosophical school of Stoicism. It is a school of thought that emphasizes virtue as being the ultimate good, that the things outside of one's own control ought to be regarded as 'indifferents' and that the thing we are most in control of is how we respond to the events around us. The concept of 'Logos' that they also espoused has its parallels with the Force. Like the Jedi, the Stoics also face misconceptions about them that their teachings revolve around not feeling your emotions... after all, emotion is natural, and what is natural is more or less one of those things outside one's own control. Feeling the feelings is fine (after all, Obi Wan Kenobi certainly felt strong feelings of broken heartedness upon seeing how far Anakin had fallen, which he cries out after cutting Anakin apart from the high ground)... it's the extent to which we let those feelings have free reign over our minds that is the issue. Do you let those emotions consume you? Or do you step back within your own mind and consciousness and observe how you feel and whether or not it serves the ultimate good (which is virtue) to surrender to that emotion.
Jude Watson's Jedi Apprentice series had a great understanding of what "There is no emotion, there is peace". In one chapter, Qui-Gon was described as looking at his feelings as a Jedi would: accepting it as being there, analyze why it was there, realising the implications and follies from this emotion, then let it go. This is what was meant by "there is no emotion, there is peace".
As Lucas’s DVD commentaries make clear, he based the Jedi religion on Zen Buddhism. Buddhists and Jedi have a specific definition of attachment-the inability to let go of people and things, and the selfish need to posses. Shmi demonstrates how to love without being attached by allowing Anakin to leave her and be freed. The prequels also show us attachment, where horrible actions are taken in the name of people who would never have approved. RUclips has tons of videos on Zen Buddhism. They’re a good place to start if you want to understand the Jedi.
Totally agree, I get quite annoyed when some people say that balance of the force means balancing dark and light. Dark side is specifically *disturbance* in the force. Aka, it's things going out of balance. No matter how you use dark side, it always adds up to more unbalance.
True. While Light-Dark Side balance much a very popular interpretation, if you go by George Lucas’s words, the Dark Side is pretty much the disturbance itself. Causing the Force to be out balance in the first place.
It’s honestly scary how many people have no problem siding with the Sith. The Jedi aren’t perfect but they still act to defend the galaxy, unlike the Sith who don’t care who or what they tear down in order to crave their desire for power.
İt is disturbing that people would rather commit mass murders instead of regulating their emotions. Not to mention they can even choose to neither be a jedi or a sith
I feel like videos like these are extremely important in and for the Star Wars fandom because it is insane how much Anti-Jediism there is among fans and how badly it’s expressed by them, especially in misinterpretations and how hollowly they think about them before coming to a conclusion or something. What’s worse is that more or less of these Jedi criticisms by fans seem to sound suspiciously a lot like Sidious’s claims, a Dark Lord of the Sith who sought to destroy the Jedi reputation intentionally as much as he could. When somebody says the Jedi are evil and genuinely believe it, it’s like, you do realize that Darth Sidious is still the *bad guy,* right? Imperfection doesn’t necessarily mean shithead.
Coming back to this video again... I do get to thinking about how the relationship between Anakin Skywalker and Padme was a terrible idea from the start. Unfortunately it was because they were preparing to die in the Petranaki Arena that it could even happen. Up to that point even Anakin despite his strong feelings had agreed not to go ahead... but believing they were about to get torn to shreds by an acklay within the next couple of minutes put things in perspective, which ironically sealed Anakin's fate. Of course, this doesn't mean that every romantic relationship was doomed to send a Jedi to the Dark Side. Take Revan and Bastila Shan for example... it was their love for each other that ultimately saved each other from the Dark Side (especially Bastila), and while Revan was hiding in a cave on Dromund Kaas, pictures of Bastila served to help comfort him despite knowing that he might never see her again or ever meet their son. Of course, it helps that theirs' was a healthier relationship than the one between Anakin and Padme. Of course... given how open ended SWtOR is, ships in that game are ambiguous when it comes to whether or not they actually would have happened but my Jedi Knight certainly had a healthy relationship with Kira Carsen... even though her background as daughter of Sith from Dromund Kaas and a former Child of the Emperor made it impossible for them to apply for the exemption to the general rule the Order had against Jedi romance. The reunion at the end of the main storyline in Onslaught demonstrated that despite her longing so badly to go back to him, she still nonetheless maintained her Jedi resolve, even with only Lord Scourge, a Sith as company while they engaged on their own quest to help ensure the Emperor never returns. Also, while it has been relegated to Legends, Kyle Katarn eventually engaged in a romance with his partner in crime and pilot Jan Ors and stayed on the straight and narrow regardless. Granted that was under Luke Skywalker's Jedi Order which did not restrict romantic relationships, as he himself had one of the most legendary Jedi romances with Mara Jade, and it was their budding relationship that helped her overcome Palpatine's influence and go down the path of a Jedi. There is also the Green Jedi, Corellia's own distinct offshoot of the Jedi Order, who never forbade romance... as many of their ranks were from prominent Corellian aristocracy and were concerned with maintaining their family bloodlines. Of course, in that context they likely viewed marriage the way that feudal dynasties of our medieval era did... a business transaction... so not a whole lot of room for forming attachments compared to the average person. I certainly do understand why the post-Ruusan Jedi Order right up to the Clone Wars were so hellbent on forbidding romance amongst their ranks... the example of Anakin Skywalker is the most blatant example of what it was they were trying to protect the galaxy from by enacting that rule. And despite all of that, Obi Wan Kenobi did love Duchess Satine that way. He was even willing to leave the life of a Jedi behind if she asked him to. Though it seems to have been more of a benefit to the galaxy that she did not take that step and he remained committed to the Jedi. That said... it was far from the only way to deal with some of the icky things that romance draws out that, if left unchecked can lead to the Dark Side. Hell... the last example I will present is not a Jedi at all (well... former Jedi)... Jaesa Willsaam... the former Padawan of the Jedi Master Nomen Karr and Sith apprentice to the Sith Warrior who would come to be known as the Empire's Wrath. My Sith Warrior did pursue this relationship and it led to her deciding she wasn't going to do that typical Sith act of betraying her master to usurp his position because she loved him. Such an un-Sith-like attitude she has taken despite how wholeheartedly she otherwise embraced the Dark Side... the complete opposite to Darth Malgus, who murdered Eleena Daru, because he figured that his love for her made him weak, inhibited his connection to the Dark Side.
While most of the rules the original Jedi made had the right ideas on most fronts they still have flaws in them that don't take into account on how different forms of negative emotions and selfish desires can manifest and what the Jedi during the PT did to enforce them certainly only made them worst or at least not any better. For example not having any attachments can lead into lack of empathy and understanding to people who aren't like you thus at best making one ignorant as well as out of touch of the outside world and at worst arrogant and thinking you're better then people who have attachments. It's especially bad for force users who have different ways of handling emotions and stress then others like Anakin. Just because the practice they had worked for some Jedi doesn't mean it'll work for all of them. It's why a lot of people say the Jedi Order was just as responsible for Anakin's fall to the dark side because yes a lot of his fall was due to his choices, what the Jedi order did at the time did not help matters as they should have, thus they share the same blame for Darth Vader's creation as Anakin. In the end despite them having superhuman powers they're still not perfect beings and yes they have the right intentions and goals no one can deny that. The problem is that by becoming too legalistic and not willing to think twice about does it make sense to enforce this rule or not they've only created a new set of problems for themselves and everyone else around them.
The only thing I can say in response to the Jedi being responsible for Anakin's fall is that the numbers disagree. In the Golden Age, very few Jedi fell to the Dark Side, meaning it is almost impossible for there to have been any systemic flaw that contributed to falling. Not that they didn't have other flaws, though as stated in the video, their hands were kind of tied by their position in the government. It could also be the case that the Jedi didn't know how to handle people who weren't raised in the Temple on account of almost never having to do it, meaning people like Anakin kind of got the short end of the stick, and it wasn't anyone's fault (finite resources and all that). For the arrogance thing, that did seem to be something of a common problem, though attachment as used in the rule against it probably doesn't mean the same thing as it does in developmental psychology, and there is space magic involved that changes the way your mind works (the Dark Side really exemplifies this, but there's no reason to assume the Light Side doesn't also have an effect, just a less noticeable one), so the issue doesn't have such a simple cause as that. That was likely part of it, and having superpowers was probably another.
@@samueldimmock694 I think the lack of Jedi turning was because the dark side and the Sith were unknown. They didn’t really know how to tap into it. Anakin only truly fell because of Sideous
@@thecrimsonfire4921 The Dark Side wasn't unknown. The Sith were, but people fell to the Dark Side in times and places where the Sith didn't exist. All you really have to do is use the Force while giving in to your emotions. True, there was a lot less temptation around, since nobody was actively trying to convert them and there wasn't a galactic-scale war going on, and the Dark Side found in the vicinity of Sith Lords is stronger than anywhere else except Dark Side nexus points (of which there were still a few around), but there were still plenty of warzones and atrocities and evil people, meaning Jedi were exposed to Dark Side energies and to scenarios when the Dark Side's promised power boost is tempting. But I'm not disagreeing that it's easier to resist the Dark Side when you're not living in it all day every day and there isn't a Sith Lord telling you to give in.
I agree. I personally think we aught to have a mix of individual ideals and and collective ideals. Collectively you shouldn’t get in the way of others happiness and freedoms but individually you should be able to pursue your own happiness. Absolutely the force should not be used to aid your happiness but the fact that the Jedi condemn any attachments is rather misplaced and I think the fact that there haven’t been more Jedi written to have turned to the dark side because of that damning limitation is weird. I’m unsure of what George Lucas is intending in his story because in real life he has people he’s attracted to, a daughter n’ such. So it’s really a matter of perspective as all good art is, I don’t really wanna know what George Lucas intended because I want myself and everyone to come out of Star Wars with our own interpretations.
@@samueldimmock694 The numbers aren’t accurate reflectors of the nature of the situation though. Most Jedi didn’t fall, but that doesn’t tell us about how many Jedi stayed Jedi. Most Jedi didn’t fall, but that doesn’t tell us that the teachings were effective, if anything it might tell us that there’s no reason for the Jedi to really use or even fall in the first place. They were warrior monks raised by a short old goblin man since being very young, and there wasn’t much of a reason to feel the angst that Anakin did. Hell, I’m fairly certain you’re wrong. One of Qui-Gon’s students before Obi-Wan had fallen to the Dark Side. And it is the Jedi’s fault. Their entire way of doing things is denying the emotions that cause harm, even if the way they do it is by attempting to pacify it with tranquility, or cope with it by practicing acceptance. They reject the notion that anger is valid, and that not everything can or should be accepted. Afterall, they can’t accept the Force not being in balance. Which demonstrates that they’re themselves imposing their will onto the Force by imposing their ideas of it onto the galaxy and it’s use. If the Force has a will of its own that manifests itself in the universe, that implies the destruction of the Jedi was the will of the Force, as was the Clone Wars and every atrocity that has ever existed in the galaxy. If that’s the case, why do the Jedi focus so much on consciously “doing the will of the Force”? Kenobi is a Soresu master because he just lets the force do what it wants with him, even willing to let himself die if he must. He isn’t even attached to himself- and you might be able to argue that it’s the opposite- that he isn’t so much letting them force act through him as rather, it already is. My argument is that the real way the Force acts through beings is by letting people be themselves. The force wants people to be exactly as they are, and might dictate everything that leads up to that point. Their fall might be their destiny, or rather, their inner nature. Rather than there being a grand design, it’s more like reality itself playing out. The Jedi are fools, in that they believe one should do as the force wills- ignoring the idea that what the individual wants and desires is more likely to be “the will of the force”. That those who might bend the force to their will are actually the most well bound slaves to it.
It’s honestly amazing to watch different you tubers opinions on Star Wars politics. There’s everything from straight up empire supporters, CIS lovers, and Jedi lackeys like what we have here
After watching the cinema therapy video about BPD and researching a bit myself in ways to cope with BPD the jedi code sounds an awful lot like those coping options. Meditating / Using senses to help yourself through emotional times or panic / anger and the likes. I think if they would have explained their methods, maybe it may have helped too. Instead of keeping it a "must" and encourage it as an option for emotional coping rather than something force related. But then again. Instead of just coping and fighting the symptoms, one should instead focus on preventing the causes. Like instead of invalidating someone's struggles, the world could begin to listen. Instead of ripping apart bonds to develop a fear of loss, they could encourage healthy bondage.
The second half of your statement definitely has the right of it, Rai. Stay on that path; the code of the Jedi is absolutely awful for any sentient being-especially one trying to develop an emotionally healthy mindset.
I think this quote from Mace Windu sums up your last couple points nicely... It's a shame more people don't know how Windu was really like and just go by the Canon perception of him. "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. We fight for justice because justice is the fundamental bedrock of civilization: an unjust civilization is built upon sand. It does not long survive a storm."
Any chance that penchant for unhealthy attachment sprung in part from the trauma of slavery? It seems to me the tragedy of Anakin is that he was the most powerful slave in the Galaxy, he was born to servitude, his final salvation and freedom manifested in the same moment.
That's why the Jedi didn't want Anakin in the Order. They made an exception to let him in, if they followed it to the T he wouldn't have been let in. Qui Gon is actually the one who messed up by insisting Anakin be let in.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi It was the Council's decision regardless of Qui-Gon Jinn's desires. Given the negatives of training him and letting him loose to be picked up by the Sith and his piloting skills, I think the council should have shuffled him over to the Exploration Corps. Able to keep tabs on him, use his abilities, probably keep him happy. [By the way, just noticed I'm responding to a lot of your stuff - I'm not stalking you I swear! I think the video just got me really motivated & you're hitting the specific topics I'm liking.]
@@markuhler2664 That is true that the council ultimately went with it but still, if they stuck to their guns nothing bad would have likely happened. I think Gui-Gon being so forceful and the fact that he died and basically appointed Obi-Wan to the job kind of put them in a tough spot. I mean, how could you say no to the dying wish of a man who only every did his duty to the Jedi and died fighting your ancient enemy? And do you risk Obi-Wan doing it anyway outside the structure of the Jedi? It's a lose-lose situation so maybe you just cut your loses and try to give the best training you can. But if they still said no, Anakin likely wouldn't have learned to use the Force (unless Obi-Wan really did go with leaving the Order to train him) and would not have been a danger (unless the Sith tracked him down but there is a very strong chance that they would have never found him because the galaxy's a big place). But even with all that I think the Jedi did everything they could to control Anakin. I was really strict with him and he needed a strict teacher. It really came down to Anakin and how he refused to learn emotional control. You can only do so much teaching and leading by example, it falls to Anakin to actually listen and choose to follow. [Don't worry, you're good. It's just a coincidence we are in the same threads for some reason. ;-)
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi There in lies the issue. They tried to “control “ Anakin Skywalker, not help him, not teach him to accept his life or find a deeper relationship with the Jedi Order as a whole, they simply taught him as any other Jedi initiate was taught. Here you have a nine year old boy who has only ever known slavery and he finds out he is a powerful Force-sensitive, add to that he was forced to abandon his mother who was still a slave, go to the Galactic capital planet, be told your “too old to be a Jedi” , that you possess great fear, and then when you finally get to become a member of the Jedi Order, You to be instructed by a Jedi Knight who has barely any knowledge of how to relate to you or sympathize with your emotions or life. I’m surprised Anakin had as much self control as he did. If I were in his shoes I would have left the Jedi order the moment I was able and never look back. The Jedi were flawed, their handling of Anakin during Episode one proves as much.
"Why they, on an ideological level, are right." - Yeah, but the problem here is that the Jedi are organics, not perfect beings. And as organics - even the "Jedi are supposed to be better" ones, they still make mistakes. Solid video. I'm not sure if I agree with your use of Anakin being the voice of reason about "no emotion/peace." The kid twisted a lot of the Code to his own world-vie, and it's arguable that this scene was a teen trying to get into the pants of a girl he liked. The Jedi version. I DO agree with you about what that line of the Code truly means. I'd argue that there would be some Jedi who didn't use it like that though, and they would instead smack a Padawan/Knight down on any type of attachment even if the younger Jedi was able to feel and then let the emotions go. If I was to lay blame at the Jedi's feet for the Anakin becomes Vader thing, it would be about HOW they spoke to him. I think an argument could be made that Anakin needed a far more detailed and brutal discussion on where he was likely to end up if he didn't stop himself but got more platitudes and "cookie-cutter" phrases instead. BUT. I fully admit that I also doubt such a conversation would have worked without divine intervention. In modern terms, Anakin is that party hard, sex hard, drink and drugs hard person who is self-destructing but refuses to see they have an issue. The ones who even interventions don't always help because they don't want to change/help themselves. "Attached to an unhealthy degree." And that's the big issue. If a Jedi is able to accept loss, there's nothing stopping them from having a loving family (Luke-Mara), but you can't tell until you're in that situation and the Jedi would rather not risk it. But this is still what the attachment mantra is SUPPOSED to be, and I will argue that many Jedi ignore the unhealthy caveat. Still, a solid video. Nice work.
But even the way the Jedi spoke to Anakin was in the films were pretty blunt. Yoda told him point blank to let go of all he was afraid to lose and I was pretty strict with him. Even with us speaking to him like this he still didn't listen. And on an unrelated note, can I just say how ironic it is people blame the Jedi either way? They either think the Jedi were too lenient with Anakin and didn't pay attention enough and or they think they were too strict and controlling and that's what led Anakin to the dark side! These fans have no idea how to actually raise a child and blame the Jedi no matter what, you just can't win!
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi I actually want to give Anakin some allowance here, since there's no way he spelt the entire situation out to Yoda during this session. But regardless, Yoda's reply is a root response without any teaching. A smart teacher would not only explain how the pain and anger of losing someone that close to someone could cause the Jedi to fall into darkness, but also mention how the loved one wouldn't want them to fall. He doesn't. Instead, it's bog-standard Jedi preaching. We must NOT forget that this is from a kid who had dreams of his mother dying which came true. The Jedi maxim is SO obsessed with the idea of the future being in flux, that they ignore anyone who has proven Sight. Don't get me wrong, Anakin caused his visions of Padme dying in childbirth, but his visions of Shmii should allow his dreams a leeway of "this probably will happen" that is totally ignored. In essence, Yoda was the worst person to speak to from Anakin's perspective. The alien is all too much about saying what works for the masses rather than the individual. Let alone how dog matted he is. I have a LOT of problems with the Jedi but it's never about their goals. The people who complain about them with Anakin in both ways at the same time conflate the Jedi as people (individuals making idiotic mistakes) with the Jedi as an Organization (the third-best Force group behind NJO and Je'Daii Order).
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi You can be both too lenient in some ways, and too strict in others. These are not mutually exclusive issues. In the end the order made a lot of mistakes that resulted in little Annie going insane and becoming a family eradicator. Looking from a realistic angle, it makes perfect sense that he ended up screwed up because if you had something like the Jedi order for real it would be a cult and would likely get raided by police 100's of times over for promoting religious violence among other issues.
@Zach Watren You are right on the propaganda part. I'd say the one biggest problem is he parrots the like of denying something is the only way of containment instead of training people to handle it. If you want a more in detailed rant, I here it is: Ok. I'm not sure I agree: - 1:40 Selfish desired like emotions? - 2:09 So if destroying the dark was the right decision, how come the Je'daii managed to function perfectly well with using both? - 2:56 Train someone to deal with a problem and they'll know how to handle it. Don't do that and when they come into contact it they well... won't be trained to handle it. - 3:10 Recruiting children to become beings trained in armed combat seems to me to be highly child soldiery. And also cult like - mostly because the Jedi actively try to deny their members outside influences. - 3:21 And that isn't true. There have been exceptions (one being a case involving Mace Windu and another a child where they thought the parent was dead). And an environment where you're constantly told Jedi must go to the order isn't what I call a free and informed decision. - 3:48 You haven't denied it, you only tried to justify it. And I don't care why it's done - it's wrong regardless. - 3:52 Like emotions, love, family...? And what you've done here is take the approach of the Jedi. Prevent a problem instead of training people to handle it. - 4:08 It also denies the Jedi people in their lives who actually care about them. - 4:20 And I just realised. l The Jedi have no choice if they become one or not. - 4:40 But it still forbade emotional attachments. As you said " - 4:59 Oh, so you're saying a secret and forbidden relationship proves your case? What? - 5:12 Ok, this is getting into intellectual dishonesty - or at minimum cherry picking of evidence. That was a, flirting and b, you ignore that relationship was forbidden. - 5:34 As long as said emotions went nowhere. - 6:19 Again, you're parroting Jedi propaganda. You completely fail to understand people can be trained to deal with stuff like that. - 6:27 Like love, caring... Those bad emotions? And if the Jedi had allowed relationships, Padme could have given birth at the grand republic medical facility and there'd have been no need to go to Palpatine. - 6:44 I repeat my point of training people to deal with it. - 6:58 Or people can go the route of a grey Jedi. Or use both sides. - 7:19. Je'daii. - 7:27 I repeat my handle the problem thing. You've again, fails to even consider that maybe, just maybe, people can be taught to handle their emotions. And if relationships would were allowed, why do to the dark side? Emotions make us human, denying them make us beasts. - 7:54 Regardless of why, it's still wrong. - 8:21 If he was allowed to be married to Padme and could have sought guidance from the council instead of him being chucked out, he wouldn't have felt the need to go to Sidious. - 8:37 Oh, so now Jedi aren't allowed their own fundamental nature? Are they allowed their own personalities? - 9:40 Was the relationship perfect? No. But the Jedi rules on attachments still let him to Palpatine. - 9:53 Oh, so because someone has powers means they don't have a right to their own lives? - 10:13 Proof? You just made an unproven claim that can't be reasonably be called common knowledge. - 12:00 But regardless, that the Jedi didn't even try - by themselves or by pressuring the republic says they weren't perfect. You know what, screw being polite. This is intellectual dishonest, cherry picked, Jedi propaganda. I hope you're proud.
You are literally the kind of fanboy who this video was made for. You miss the point The Jedi stance is that you SHOULD feel emotion but be able to work through it. As for attachment, they go with the BUDDHIST definition (namely that attachment is "an exaggerated desire to not be separated from someone or something"). Love meanwhile is defined as wanting someone to be happy (which fits Han and Leia) and Compassion is wanting the other person not to suffer (Luke wants to help Vader in large part because he realizes that Vader secretly hates himself and wants to be good again but feels he can never go back.) The later two are unambiguously good and things a Jedi SHOULD have. Han and Leia are an example of a selfless romance working out fine; the problem with Anakin was that his feelings for Padme were selfish. They were based on how HE felt and how HE didn't want to be hurt. You can say that the Jedi ban on attachment was overly strict and be right; at the same time Selfish attachment can and have led to disaster in the Star Wars universe, and there is no one size fits all solution. Some people might be fine under the selfless love rules....but others might chafe under it and fall anyway. That's why the Jedi idea was correct.
The Jedi had their flaws and failures for sure, but as a whole, they were always just trying to help and do the right thing when they could. The Clone Wars actually shows the best and worst of the Jedi. We see their very good points, saving many innocents during the war, but also they're bad with some really dumb decisions the whole Ahsoka trail fiasco being a big one. Also, I know I'm probably gonna annoy some people with this one, but are you sure there is absolutely no possible way to go in-between the light and the darkness? I can think of at least two examples of Jedi using the Dark Side for good, I mean there are about a 100 more examples of it being used for evil and corrupting the people who use it, but still, there is a small possibility. The first example is Mace being able to use a Form of Lightsaber Form 7, tapping into both his darkness and his opponents and not falling to the Dark Side. And the second example, Luke using Force Choke in Return of the Jedi on the Gamoidian Guards, and I think I heard somewhere in Legends he used the move a few more times, but he always used it to just knock out and incapacitate people, never to kill, so he didn't fall either.
Mace Windu's signature style walked a really thin-line that had a lot of Jedi really leery of it, with even Mace Windu acknowledging its risks. And even then, it didn't directly draw upon the Dark Side itself. As for the Force Choke, for the most part that's just a direct application of telekinesis a fairly general ability of the Force. It was Darth Vader's signature move and so it became associated with the Dark Side strongly. It is also a very ruthless and arguably sadistic use of the Force, so the Jedi would naturally not be inclined towards its use. But it wasn't necessarily done by drawing upon the Dark Side itself. That said, both in Canon and Legends Luke has had issues with being tempted by the Dark Side and had moments of weakness where he gave in. So perhaps using something like Force Choke might not have been as safe we think.
...You do realize that the quote is basically her bitching that the world around her works in ways that transcends her desires, instead of bending to them like the Sith she at that point isn't even pretending to not be?
@@mpnuorva well exactly, that’s what truly makes a sith, they don’t bend to the will of the force, they bend the force to their will. The video games, for most, are people’s entry point into the wider Star Wars universe beyond the movies. For people who don’t understand a fundamental differences like that, it might just convince them somewhat, KotOR is a role playing game afterall where you can turn to the dark side.
@@mpnuorva No, she's rightfully complaining that a weird alien superbeing is controlling everyone's lives without their consent. Her goal was to destroy the force, not bend it to her will, how is that even remotely Sith? She would be literally powerless then, she would probably even die.
The Jedi: Seeing a River and building a Mill on its shore tu use its power.. The Sith, Seeing a River, straightening the bed, building damns, and doing everything to exploit it to its maximum potential Kreia: Bitching that the Water is flowing always in one direction and deciding to destroy the complete River so no one has ever to swim through it again.
I don’t like generation tech for different reasons. Oh well, still hate him And if anyone has a problem with my opinion... Fight me :> (Not starting a fight, just saying)
I don't know why that was really impactful to me... However, I'm 34 years old. I spent 5 years in the marines from when I was 17-22 and did 2 tours of Iraq. When you said it was something only the galactic masses had the right to do it hit me so hard. I participated in the Iraq war although i was against it. And it always hurt me everything that happened then and it hurts me even more everything that's happened now. However, our job wasn't to stop everything bad nor could it be. However, by going in initially we caused so much more suffering and pain as well as many common current evils such as ISIS by the mere fact that we tried to make it so. It's pretty crazy to read about this fiction that was a parallel to life in the past and is still such a parallel to life currently. I wish I could explain this better but the relationship between all this hit me really hard.
I hope you’re able to heal and find peace, friend. I’ve had many friends and mentors that served in the military that share your feelings as well. I’m sure your intentions were noble, and I’m sure you followed your heart and what you knew to be right in most cases. Sometimes that leads to some terrible outcomes, but we should never fault ourselves for trying to do our best and to do what we perceive as right. That said, I’ve definitely never had to bear a burden nearly as heavy as the one you do, I’m only trying to offer a little bit of reprieve in the only way I know how. And be sure to talk to your loved ones and people you trust about how you’re feeling. It really is one of the best things you can do, and your loved ones will appreciate you all the more for it.
Hot Star Wars take: People hate the Jedi because they are a imperfect solution to a imperfect universe and don’t want to admit the dark side would turn them evil if they were force users.
Hot Star Wars Take: The Jedi suck because they don’t even know what they’re doing. It’s not just an imperfect solution, it’s the cause of the problems, given these ideas do not hold up to scrutiny at all. Passion, even anger and hate are healthy when focused and utilized properly, and the world has no good or evil in it. The Jedi are idiots and the Sith are insane fools too.
For real, the star wars galaxy isn't "slightly dystopian", the VAST majority of it is a fucking nightmare and tbh its a great representation about what a future of capitalism and rampant greed could look like in a system with virtually unlimited frontiers.
Indeed, both are dogmatic and self serving in their doctrine. At least the Sith are direct about it where as the Jedi hide behind a vail of self righteousness. I wouldn’t trust either order with galactic peace.
@voidtremor While the Jedi may have had a “veil” of self-righteousness, the ppl under their rule experienced Actual peace to one degree or another. Not so in the case of the Sith, as even the highest echelons of Sith society were under the eternal paranoia of constant backstabbing syndrome.
I mean, you can quote Anakin saying he thinks they're encouraged to love, but that's a half truth. They can love in the way deemed acceptable by their terms. What most people include in "love" (such as attachment) is not accepted. Anakin was not exactly unbiased, so he wasn't able or willing to say the full truth.
Jedi do allow people to love each other. Its there job. If they didnt care like everyone says then they would be saving the galaxy every time the people come crying for help.
@@CoolMyron I’m sorry to say this, truly I am. But saving people and loving people are to different things. You cannot understand what you do not know or have. The Jedi encouraged group thinking, constrictive views about the “Force” itself. To them if you became a practitioner of the Darkside you had to be eliminated or Imprisoned. The Sith were Satanic demons to the eyes of the Jedi. The Sith were ironically enough fulfilling the “Will of the Force” by destroying the Jedi Order. The Jedi clouded their own vision in the Force, and as far as we know the Jedi post Order 66 gave up on themselves. The religious cult that was Jedi-ism at its core was fundamentally broken ,irrational , emotionally damaging, and morally and ethically more twisted and evil than any Sith had been until Darth Sidious. The Jedi actively sought out force sensitive individuals to either train (I mean kidnap. For that was the true purpose of the Jedi Acquisition Corps) or imprison them ( deeming non-trained Force sensitive individuals powerful in their raw connection to the Force as dangerous to them if not controlled by the Jedi ) . Largely the Jedi are a religious cult centered around the Lightside of the Force. The Darkside is thus named that simply because it was practiced in secret or out of range of prying Jedi cultists. The Jedi reject all aspects aligned with the Darkside of the Force and never allowed any member to practice its gifts.
@@makisonoda7925 That's not true at all. The sith didnt just want to kill the jedi. They wanted to have all the power and take over everything. If the force wanted the jedi dead so badly then the sith would have won all the times they lost. Its not about what the Jedi think. The sith are straight-up evil. Simple as that. The jedi in canon fell because the writers wanted jake skywalker to be a cowardly old baby. And somehow Kylo killed a temple full of Jedi by himself. Even Anakin (with more training) had help. If the jedi's system was so broken then they would not have lasted as long as they did. The sith have always been more evil. Other than 1 or 2 accounts of genocide that the Jedi def regretted but was somewhat justified, the sith has always been worst. And now i think you are just trolling. Even the most casual of fans know the jedi didnt kidnap people. And they let people leave their order, you are making things up now. I think you got the words jedi and sith mixed up.
@@makisonoda7925 It seems you didn't get it clear enough by watching the video, so i'll explain, again. The Sith CANNOT enforce the "Will of the Force" because the usage of the Dark Side is a perversion of the Force itself, something unnatural, that disturbs the Force itself. The jedi didn't kidnap force sensitive individuals, as the video already states. The parents were asked for permission and could give it (or not), because in the larger portion of the galaxy, being "chosen" to become a jedi was regarded as a great honor. And, last but not least. The jedi OBVIOUSLY prohibited the "gifts" of the dark side because, really, there were no gifts it could give that the light side couldn't, and the price was way higher.
A big thing I see is people blaming the Jedi for the evil actions of the Sith. It’s interesting that Sith propaganda works even on people in the real world because that result is exactly what the Sith wanted in the galaxy.
Sidious was right about one thing, the jedi had become dogmatic. Complacent within the trappings of their traditions rather than the purpose of those traditions. In attack of the clones when Yoda says how arrogance has become a common problem among the jedi I always took that as George Lucas speaking directly to the audience. The order was already in a state of decline before the clone wars. Not just in numbers but, in my opinion, their connection to the force.
Ofc Sidious would say something like that, given the fact that he was a Sith who truly didn't care about anyone or anything short of possessing unrestrained power. Sidious prided himself on having his way no matter who it hurt, so it stands to reason that he would find the Jedi concept of restraining ones own desires for the good of other ppl repugnant.
I agree with you 100%! Too many times people try to blame the Jedi for issues that were not theirs, or try to make them the scapegoat because they don't understand how the order really worked.
Not so sure on the Emotion part tbh. Yes the Jedi accepted there were emotions but just told you to meditate them away. Meditation helps to get rid of the Symptoms but not the core problem in every case. If the Jedi were thaught to be more open about their feelings there would have been more discussions and ways for troubled jedi to figur their problems out. Two examples. Annakins love for Padme: Yes the Relationship got realy realy creepy but the biggest problem was that Annakin could only turn to Palpatin who as we all know did not had Annikins best intrest in mind. If Annakin would have been allowed to love and have a relation he would most likely have turned to Obi and Yoda for advice and both of them could have told him:"Dude you are acting like a dick if you keep that up she might hate you for it" sometimes it just takes a good frind to tell you that you are wrong. Annakin spying on Palpatine: Yeah the Jedi didn´t get that asking someone to spy on his best friend could turn things south ultra fast. I mean imagine your boss gets to you and asks you to spy on your best friend because your boss doesn´t trust him. If the Jedi would have grapsed the concept of friendship they would have known that putting annakin together with Palpatine with the mission to spy on him is a dick move. Instead they could have relazied that Palpatine means a lot to annakin told him they have some suspissicions and they want him to stay away from him for some time while they investigate spin it like they want the best for both of them but realizing that if Palp is an sith this could compromise Annakin heavily. All over all the Jedi were not super incompetend but they also were far from good and the 1000 years they did great was mostly because the sith were keeping quiet
The Jedi solution to any emotion was to either meditate or ignore it and hope it goes away. And of course the Jedi couldn't grasp the concept of Anakin and Palpatine's friendship. These are the same people who flat out scolded him for missing his mother when he was a little kid. He's 10 years old, wtf do you expect? It would have been easy enough for them to buy her freedom from Watto and set her up in an apartment on Coruscant. Anakin could have visited her from time to time and wouldn't have had to worry about her, he never would have killed those Tuskens, and he could have had someone to talk to about his relationship with Padme.
Sometimes I think the biggest problem with the Jedi Code is the wording. Would it not be harder for the fans to get wrong if it was written thusly? "Act not from emotion, but from peace" "Act not from ignorance, but from knowledge" "Act not with passion, but with serenity" "Where there is chaos, bring harmony" "In life and death, there is the Force"
There's a fantastic video about Kreia's philosophy floating around which points out that the Code truly makes sense when you add "When" at the start: "When there is no emotion, there is peace" etc. The point being that the Code originally was about the impossible striving for the peace, knowledge, serenity, harmony, and acceptance of death while accepting the first stuff (emotion, ignorance, passion, chaos, life) must be worked through on a constant basis, but after some time, the Order cut the "When" off, and became more dogmatic in its attitude.
While I mostly agree with your reasoning, I'm not willing to give the Jedi a total pass. While it's absolutely true that rules like the ban on attachments were there for a very good reason, the way those rules were enforced was inflexible and, in the end, harmful. It's all very well to tell your super powered warriors "You must not have attachments", but inevitably that rule _will_ be broken. And when it was, the Jedi who broke it had no experience or emotional tools to help them deal with their attachments in a healthy way. When Anakin came to Yoda for help over his fear that his mother was going to die, Yoda told him (paraphrased) "Eh, just don't worry about it." When Yula Braylon had a child, she kept it secret, brought him into the Jedi order, and covered up his crimes, all because she was afraid of what the council would do if they found out. Forbidding attachment is like forbidding addiction; it doesn't prevent it from happening, it just cuts people off from the help that they need. If Anakin had been able to tell the Jedi "Look, I'm having dreams that my wife will die in childbirth", then Padme could have been brought to the Temple for 24/7 healthcare, and he wouldn't have been driven to desperation to save her. If he'd been able to be open about his relationship, they could've got some marriage counselling - or their romance could have run its course, they get divorced, and carried on. By denying it and keeping it secret, it created the exact unhealthy relationship that they were trying to avoid. And of course it's true that the Jedi alone could not have wiped slavery out across the galaxy, but they could definitely have done a lot more than they did. They had enormous political influence and power that they could have wielded to push the Republic to actually enforce their anti-slavery laws. They could have told corporations that any corporation that employed slavery would not receive protection or contracts from the Jedi. We're kind of running into the "Perfect Solution" fallacy - the idea that Jedi couldn't wipe out slavery, so it's okay that they didn't do enough about it. Personally, I blame Yoda for most of this. His god complex meant that he tried to turn ALL Jedi into reflections of himself, and they lost their ability to truly serve the will of the Force. They became rigid, stuck to the narrow handful of ways Yoda would allow them to behave, and lost the flexibility they would need to respond to the Sith.
I totally understand and agree with you. The Jedi weren’t perfect, but they also didn’t do as much as they could have. I admit I am biased against the Jedi Order, I think its a religious cult that adheres to a strict black and white dogmatic viewpoint. Doesn’t mean I hat all Jedi just hat the organization called the Jedi Order.
I do think you have to keep in mind that Anakin was a special case because he was older than when most children were brought in which led to the downfall
The rules should have been inflexible. They were beings who possessed the power to do a lot of damage if they weren't restrained. No one should have been above the rules, not even the Chosen One. In fact, the Chosen One should've been the one who most exemplified the logic behind those rules.
A few other things I'd like to add: -Being a Jedi is entirely your choice. If you wanted to get married or disagree with a Jedi rule, you are fee to leave. -Jedi don't have anything against families and a big reason why they don't let Jedi have family is because they know families require responsibility. But a Jedi needs to prioritize the lives of all people over the lives of people closest to them. So the Jedi banned having families so Jedi would never be faced with a morally impossible choice. And as said above, if a Jedi really did want to get married they could if they left because now they don't have split loyalties. -A big reason why I think the Jedi didn't go crusading to other parts of the galaxy to end slavery and other misdeeds is because it's outside of the Republic and you cannot go to different lands and impose your morals onto them. That is such an imperialistic way of thinking. Even if you are right, you can't just strong arm other people into following your rules. Think of it this way, did the United States march into Saudi Arabia and demand that they let women drive? Would it be right to do so even thought Saudi Arabia does have sexist rules? Of course not, America does not have that right, just like Saudi Arabia does not have the right to march into America and change the rules because in thier eyes, letting women drive is just as wrong as American think not letting them drive is. You simply cannot force other people to follow your rules.
'You're free to leave" Until they decide you are a darkside threat and go after you. The Jedi literally started a war to crush a separatist movement that did not want to be part of the galactic republic anymore. Instead of just letting them go, they started a war on a scale that would be unimaginable. Why is that OK but pushing a planet to end slavery which is also against republic laws is not?
@@kauske I don't think you understood what I was saying. When I said you could leave, I was referring to Jedi leaving the Order, not political secession. In fact, the entire reason the CIS threat even occurred was because the Jedi let Count Dooku leave the Order no questions asked. I also hope you realize that the Jedi only declared war when the CIS literally did became a Dark Side threat where Count Dooku was revealed to be a Sith Lord who attempted to execute 2 Jedi and a Republic Senator. Those are grounds for war and the Jedi did not start it, the CIS did with multiple assassination attempts and building an army. And this again goes into jurisdiction. The Separatists were formerly Republic territories which illegally left the Republic. The Jedi waging war against them was no different than the Union waging war against the Confederacy in the American Civil was. What you are proposing in your war to end slavery would amount to the Jedi invading non-Republic planets to force them to end slavery, that would be like America invading Brazil to ends slavery. So as I hope you can see, the Jedi waging war against a body that is illegally seceding is entirely different than going into other lands that are not part of your government and forcing them to do something. The two situation are not comparable, not to mention that if slavery ever popped up in the Republic, the Jedi would immediately be deployed to end it. Like that was part of the reason war was declared, because the CIS allowed slavery and the Jedi were not going to let a former Republic territories devolve into slavery.
The jedi are prone to fanaticism and paranoia, which is explored more in legends. Like how the padawan massacre on Dantooine was the result of jedi fanatics trying to prevent a prophesy which said a padawan was going to grow up to destroy the jedi order. Not to mention wiping out any force tradition regardless of force alignment, just because it differs from the jedi code. Like the Jensaarai for instance, or that time a jedi discovered a race of sentient force sensitive crystals and the jedi forbid them from being trained as jedi.
@@ninjaked1265 The whole senate backed him on that, and even gave him emergency powers. The Jedi went and commissioned a clone army on their own anyhow, even if it was hijacked by palps. The Jedi also willingly took the republic's side in the war, and went to battle to prevent the Separatists from succeeding. Blame where blame is due.
the reason why attachments are forbidden is that in a moment of pain or desperation a Jedi would turn to whatever means and an example of this would be saving someone's life like what happened to Anakin. He wanted to save Padme and when he saw that the Jedi Order and the Light Side of the Force could not help him, he turned to the Dark Side, as long as Padme was safe, he would do horrific crimes (attack on the jedi temple, destruction of younglings so no new generation of jedi could happen). If Anakin had no attachment to Padme he would see her death as the will of the Force. Remember, in the Jedi code there is no death, there is the Force.
Sure, let's COMPLETELY forget the context of Anakin's downfall to make an idiotic post supporting the Jedi and their egotistical take that ALL emotions are evil and should be avoided at all costs
@@reallybigmistake They didn't LOVE, much less CARE FOR anyone during the prequels There's a very fine line between stoicism and psychopathy, you know.
@@jeremyallen5974 the Jedi did care for each other, you had bonds between master and padawn close to parents and children. The Jedi didn't form attachment because if they did then they would use the force in any way to justify their means like Anakin turning to the dark side to try and save Padme since the Jedi would never support him.
Honestly, I see the jedi code as theoretical solution to universe that is morally gray most of the time. It's the complete devotion to either side that is blinding. There are just some things that the force can't guide the jedi with.
This isn't the kind of metaphysics you should be seeing in a film series about space wizards with laser swords aimed at children. This metaphysic is GRIMDARK.
Ok. I'm not sure I agree: - 1:40 Selfish desired like emotions? - 2:09 So if destroying the dark was the right decision, how come the Je'daii managed to function perfectly well with using both? - 2:56 Train someone to deal with a problem and they'll know how to handle it. Don't do that and when they come into contact it they well... won't be trained to handle it. - 3:10 Recruiting children to become beings trained in armed combat seems to me to be highly child soldiery. And also cult like - mostly because the Jedi actively try to deny their members outside influences. - 3:21 And that isn't true. There have been exceptions (one being a case involving Mace Windu and another a child where they thought the parent was dead). And an environment where you're constantly told Jedi must go to the order isn't what I call a free and informed decision. - 3:48 You haven't denied it, you only tried to justify it. And I don't care why it's done - it's wrong regardless. - 3:52 Like emotions, love, family...? And what you've done here is take the approach of the Jedi. Prevent a problem instead of training people to handle it. - 4:08 It also denies the Jedi people in their lives who actually care about them. - 4:20 And I just realised. l The Jedi have no choice if they become one or not. - 4:40 But it still forbade emotional attachments. As you said " - 4:59 Oh, so you're saying a secret and forbidden relationship proves your case? What? - 5:12 Ok, this is getting into intellectual dishonesty - or at minimum cherry picking of evidence. That was a, flirting and b, you ignore that relationship was forbidden. - 5:34 As long as said emotions went nowhere. - 6:19 Again, you're parroting Jedi propaganda. You completely fail to understand people can be trained to deal with stuff like that. - 6:27 Like love, caring... Those bad emotions? And if the Jedi had allowed relationships, Padme could have given birth at the grand republic medical facility and there'd have been no need to go to Palpatine. - 6:44 I repeat my point of training people to deal with it. - 6:58 Or people can go the route of a grey Jedi. Or use both sides. - 7:19. Je'daii. - 7:27 I repeat my handle the problem thing. You've again, fails to even consider that maybe, just maybe, people can be taught to handle their emotions. And if relationships would were allowed, why do to the dark side? Emotions make us human, denying them make us beasts. - 7:54 Regardless of why, it's still wrong. - 8:21 If he was allowed to be married to Padme and could have sought guidance from the council instead of him being chucked out, he wouldn't have felt the need to go to Sidious. - 8:37 Oh, so now Jedi aren't allowed their own fundamental nature? Are they allowed their own personalities? - 9:40 Was the relationship perfect? No. But the Jedi rules on attachments still let him to Palpatine. - 9:53 Oh, so because someone has powers means they don't have a right to their own lives? - 10:13 Proof? You just made an unproven claim that can't be reasonably be called common knowledge. - 12:00 But regardless, that the Jedi didn't even try - by themselves or by pressuring the republic says they weren't perfect. You know what, screw being polite. This is intellectual dishonest, cherry picked, Jedi propaganda. I hope you're proud.
One thing I had always thought when it came to the different Jedi orders when people compare them they always say how Luke’s Jedi order was about as perfect as one can be because he did away with what he felt was rules that were wrong like Jedi forming attachments and marrying yet his order had it’s own Jedi who turned Sith like Jace Solo aka what Kylo Ren should’ve been
I also think there is disagreement about the force and how to act in spite of it... What is actually the best way to deal with the dark side...? Are there alternatives? What are those alternatives? Is any of it worth the effort? Is doing so even legitimate?
I'd argue take a leaf from the Je'daii book - use and learn both light or dark. That way you teach people how to use both and won't become fanatical towards either side.
@@FirstNameLastName-tg3rc - probably add some serious therapy training to deal with troubled members rather than relying on prevention alone. Aside from acknowledging that the code destroys human nature and some just can’t be a self denying monk... and at the least foster alternatives to lessen the chance of fanaticism... along with controlling passion rather than detaching from it... ala Jolee Bindo etc
@@watch50er Apart from that I'd call the Jedi's approach denying a problem exists/banning it, good points. (Edit). As to the Je'daii being canon, I believe they were canon, then legends, then were put back into the canon.
"If you are to truly understand then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single idea. It is to surrender yourself - to make yourself a slave to a teaching or a belief - that makes it so belief will always rule you. To believe in an idea is to be willing to betray it." --Kreia, KotOR II Honestly, a lot of issues in the Jedi Order would probably be resolved if they had dedicated therapists and a safe place to discuss their worries without fear of being judged or excommunicated.
That seems redundant as most of the most effective forms of therapy are based off of things like Buddhism or Stoicism. You know the things that are the primary real world inspiration for the Jedi? "Not to be driven this way and that, but always to behave with justice and see things as they are." - Marcus Aurelius
@@myself2noone Anakin's options were to go and get therapy from his boss. (Yoda) And you never go and confess to your boss anything they can (and usually will) use against you. There was no way he could be honest with Yoda. It was either quit the Jedi and be tossed out on his ass with no support or place to go (they pretty much gave Ahsoka little more than an "AMFYOYO" for support), and abandon people who needed him for the war effort...or shrug and go "oh well, will of the Force" when it came to watching his wife (and kids) die in a painful, prolonged, violent death. It was a no-win from the start, and Palpy merrily took advantage.
Yeah I think people forget that the slavery bit is thousands of Jedi versus hundreds of trillions of sentients within a Republic inside a galaxy that endorses slavery. Even with fancy space magic and super awesome light swords, the numbers are against you if you even THINK about trying to go on a galactic wide crusade to free the slaves.
so, they're are allowed to promote friendship and love, and yet, they are not allowed to have a romantic relationship regardless of if it's a healthy one or not by the times of the clone wars? I don't know, and even using Anakin as an example, Anakin wasn't the only one at fault for falling to the Darkside being of the Jedi are equally at fault for not properly giving him that support that he'd needed.
Strictly speaking, the Jedi don't forbid romantic relationships. And the two key issues are that it can prompt a Jedi to place the needs and desires of the one they love over the needs of everyone else. And that relationships can lead to unhealthy attachments, selfish love, as was the case with Anakin.
I think you overlook in this video the influence of the Sith in tipping the balance of the Force in preventing the Jedi from identifying the issues they faced.
The problem with the Jedi as we know them in the last thousand years of the timeline is the same problem with the Republic during this period: the Ruusan Reformation. For 400 years the Jedi led the government during war time as chancellors, and prior to the Ruusan reformation the Jedi were an independent organization with a privately-funded military that saved the Republic from near-complete collapse. When the final war was won they willingly returned control of the government back to the civilian populace - as Palpatine was supposed to do but did not. But that was not enough for the politicians, who feared (or said they did as a means of getting the upper hand) an independent and very popular group of people outside their control who had their own military and private financial backing. The Jedi were depleted and exhausted from the war and came home victorious to a list of ultimatums if they wanted to remain a part of the republic they just saved. They had to: 1. Give up their military 2. Exist as a part of the government and submit to direct supervision by the chancellor and judiciary 3. No longer wear armor 4. Train children from birth, with an age limit (to prevent a Sith resurgence) 5. Centralize padawan training on Coruscant (to avoid unsupervised students getting access to forbidden knowledge) They basically gave in to the fear of others and placated the Republic by making themselves small. In conjunction with the changes made to the senate at this time, these reformations shackled the order and left them powerless and exposed with the door wide open for the Sith to corrupt from within. These reformations only make sense in a utopian world where the government is pure of heart and war doesn't exist. Since that is definitely not the world of Star Wars, these reformations were practically a Sith wish list, and I'm sure the anticipatory irony of the Jedi signing their own death warrant warmed and sustained their cold little Sith hearts while they poisoned and planned.
Passion itself isn't a bad thing. The Jedi are terrified of strong emotions, whether they're good or bad. But instead of training people to deal with emotions in healthy ways, they tell them to meditate and/or ignore the problem and hope it goes away. When Anakin is having nightmares about his mother, instead of talking to him about it or suggesting they go check Tatooine out, Obi Wan just tells him to ignore his dreams because they'll go away in time. And on top of that, he's assigned as Padme's body guard, even though he's _clearly_ obsessed with her. If a person is cut off from the outside world, raised to bury their emotions, and told that half the emotions they experience are bad and wrong, eventually that's going to cause problems.
Meditation is a good way to deal with stress. The jedi order and its code is fine. The people who run it either follow it way to strictly or not at all.
@@CoolMyron Yes meditation is is a healthy way to relieve stress. But that not the major problem. The handling of Anakin shows a morally reprehensible view of the Jedi are as a whole based on the ruling of the Jedi High Council who sets the standards of the Order.
@@makisonoda7925 Anakin broke the rules and failed to choose between his wife and the order. Its his fault. The council's treatment also played a factor but that's due to what the jedi of that era had become, not the Order in its self. If Anakin had chosen between the order and his wife like Obi Wan did with his lover then things would have been fine. He tried to have both and instead lost them both.
@@CoolMyron And why should Anakin or Obi Wan *have* to choose between their loved ones and the Order? Just because something is a rule doesn’t mean it’s a good, logical, or well-thought-out rule. If they were never made to choose in the first place, what do you think might have happened? Me, personally, I’d argue Darth Vader would’ve never even existed-and there’d be a lot less Jedi becoming monsters in the absence of the most basic tenets of a sentient being’s heirarchy of needs.
@@Sanguivore Anakin has to choose because he can't handle it. If he could handle the stress of lying to the order and hiding his wife then he would not have fallen. I would assume Obi-Wan realized this, that's why he left. The rules of the order were thought out. The reason Anakin fell was that he didn't follow the rules that worked for 1k+ years now. But the Jedi council did make mistakes too. Like taking their code way too literally and being too close to Republic politics. It's sad that Anakin couldn't come to the council for help. They would have just kicked him out. They should have been more open. I believe Jedi can love and get married as long as they don't let their attachments (wife, kids, and friends) get in the way of their duty. If you can't handle that, then you can leave. This is Anakin's problem. Nothing wrong with it, but its just not what a jedi should do. He puts the life of his wife above everything else. He would let the world burn before he let Padma die. I believe the system is fine, it was the people running it that fell apart. Its both Anakin's fault for lying to everyone and being selfish, and it's the Council's fault for taking the rules so literally and being in Republic politics.
At 5:17 you say the Jedi didn't discourage emotion in a general sense, and cite Anakin saying that compassion being central to a Jedi's life as support for that. I can see this interpretation, but I think Yoda and Anakin's sessions regarding Anakin's visions of the future show us that it was a bit more complicated than that in practice. Yoda tells him to train himself to let go of everything he fears to lose, failing to acknowledge that Anakin's similar visions in the past had proven to be more reliable than those of other Jedi. And failing to sense the turmoil his advice had seeded in Anakin. Yoda himself had succumbed to the Jedi philosophy of bottling one's negative emotions so completely that he had to be shown his error by the force priestesses before he would acknowledge his own fear created by the war and the threat of the Sith. We can't talk about the failings of the prequel era Jedi order without talking about those of Yoda. Centuries of peace and dogma had blinded him and warped his perception. Leaving him, and his order, misguided and oblivious to the decay that had taken them. As an order, they had become the private military of the senate, waging a war over the desires of millions of systems to break free from exploitation by the core, caught up in politics. Meanwhile the individual Jedi under Yoda's leadership became disillusioned, battle weary, broken physically and emotionally by the war. Yoda failed to acknowledge any of it. He didn't see the mental health of his order decaying before his very eyes because even if in theory he understood his Jedi had emotions, in practice he didn't tend them or teach his Jedi how to tend them for themselves in the face of such hardship. The millennia of peace had made them monastic and dogmatic and wholly unprepared for the rise of the order of the Sith Lords.
You are basing this on the assumption that Yoda was telling Anakin to disregard his emotions, which he was not. The point Yoda was trying to make was that even if Anakin's loved ones die, they're never truly gone because they become part of the Force. Yoda tried to warn Anakin not to allow fear to drive his decisions. And because he didn't listen, Anakin ended up choking his own wife and became the reason she died.
This is absolving the Jedi Council of far too much blame for Anakin's fall. Sure, you could argue that Anakin's attachment to others was unhealthy, but the Jedi did not help it much either. Instead of teaching Anakin _how_ to handle loss, they simply told him to "let go" of everything, which no reasonable person with an attachment problem can do. Additionally, the reason why Anakin's paranoia about attachment became such an issue in the first place goes back to his separation from his mother, which the Jedi did little to help alleviate. Sure, Obi-Wan would be a good master and father-like figure, but Anakin was separated from his mother after getting to know her, which would cause any child some form of trauma early on in life. In the end, the problem with the Jedi wasn't necessarily the code, but their _overly strict adherence to it._ In the end, they clung too tightly to the code to the point that the lost sight of of what mattered more: their trust in the force and the need to treat all Jedi as individual entities in the force, with their own, specific needs. If that meant going out and freeing Anakin's mother to help cope with the attachment problem, then they should have done so. Anakin's fall was not just on himself, but the failing of his masters to help him with his attachment problem outside of a few words.
I never liked the idea that anger and fear are considered negative emotions. They are not. They are vital and they are important, they exist for a reason. Without fear there is no caution, without anger there is no incentive for justice. If your life is in danger, and you simply don’t feel the emotion of fear, you’re not at peace, you’re defective. You don’t have the mechanism that allows for threat assessment. Caution, restraint, avoidance are all facets of fear. Without fear, none of those exist either. Anger is important for both self preservation and social cohesion. If you can be wronged and feel nothing but tranquility, you are not at peace, you are a doormat and don’t have the capacity to fight for others. If one can step on you, how can you stop them from doing it to others? Anger for the sake of others Is incredibly important. When I see injustice, I feel fury. Those are human beings not being treated as such. That is wrong, and if we all felt no anger at such actions then none would be taken to v correct them. In the case of both anger and fear, avoiding them is not only impossible but entirely foolish, dismissing them or ignoring them outright is just as bad. Healthy anger and fear management are meant to ensure you can focus on more than just that emotion, and you can compartmentalize and prioritize them. Never allowing them to control you entirely, but never letting their purpose escape your perception either.
Thank you. This recent shift in less-than-stellar view of the Jedi bothered me a bit in the similar way how fans as a whole reacted to the prequels. It's a weird situation where I see the fans' criticism but something in my brain said they're wrong.
It's annoying that fans seem to struggle with nuance. The idea that the Jedi order was a good but flawed organisation doesn't seem to gel; it's either "Jedi were perfect" or "Jedi and Sith were both evil".
I feel the exact same way. Rather than reject the notion of a strict moral dichotomy of “good vs evil” and understanding that there is nuance to life, a lot of people have basically just reversed the dichotomy. Leading to such flawed statements as “The CIS are the real good guys” which is far from accurate.
That sentiment was always there but it was really galvanized by the Last Jedi when Luke gave some serious straw man arguments about the Jedi and was never really contradicted on them in the film. Like the lines "The Legacy of the Jedi is failure", "The Jedi were at the height of thier power when Sidious took over" and "A Jedi was responsible for training Darth Vader" are flat-out lies but they are presented as truths to fit Rian Johnson's themes of failure. Luke is beyond an unreliable narrator in that film, but unfortunately, there the "unreliable audience" believes him. This leads to a huge portion of the audience not actually thinking critically because they blindly believe what Luke is saying even though his words are contradicted by what actually happened in the previous films. It's honesty a big reason why I dislike the Last Jedi.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi This is one of the reasons I'm enjoying the High Republic stories. Those actually _are_ about the Jedi at the height of their power, and showing them in a very positive light.
I think what made Anakin creepy was the terrible portrayal by the actor in the prequels, sure some of the stuff he said was creepy like “everything is soft and smooth” but the actor didn’t seem like he wasn’t trying and was stiff in his portrayal (until #3) and it made him seem far more creepy then he actually was so I wouldn’t say Anakin was creepy but the way he was portrayed by the actor made him seem really creepy.
This is interesting, however my primary argument is that a lot of the evidence being presented comes from the Biased perspective of Anakin Skywalker, who George Lucas made clear was biased about his perceptions due to not having been raised by the Jedi. Ontop of that, Clone Wars and much more legends material made clear that the Jedi fell to the darkness because they didn't temper their strict adherence to the code with balance. If the history of the Jedi shows anything, it's the balance that masters like Qui Gon, and even Obi-wan manager to some degree. I think the most flawed argument is the hyper focusing on the positive aspects of the Jedi, you can't go showing that the Jedi are good without at least acknowledging the problems. Certainly some Jedi managed to adhere to the code flawlessly. But Barriss Offee fell to the Darkside because of an over zealous adherence to the Jedi code. On the flip side of course her master Luminara successfully adhered to the code. But the Jedi who worked best were the ones who found balance, a narrow few, not the majority of Jedi who fell on the left or the right of the spectrum, either adhering too strictly to the code, or not adhering strictly enough and falling to the Darkside (which is the entire point of KOTOR and it's sequel). In the end neither the Jedi or the Sith were right, and neither were they wrong. They just didn't have the full picture and both sides suffered for it. With the sith of course being the extreme opposite problem of the Jedi, too much lack of discipline vs the Jedis over abundance of it. Which led to neither being a good fit for the galaxy because it's not good to have super powerful being either hell bent on destruction or overly repressed and dealing with a lot of issues (I'll let you decide which are Jedi and which are sith in that metaphor) This has gone on way longer than I intended as a counter point to the Jedi were good. Especially given that I'm just as likely to argue why the sith are evil to someone who suggests they're good, or argue the Jedi are good to someone who argues their evil. I just like taking the opposite point of view.
Despite all their faults they still stand for peace and justice and the only ones actively trying to save the galaxy. I could never accept that version Luke mindset they paid for their mistakes but it doesn’t mean their way of life isn’t wrong Luke proved them right in episode 6 the Jedi order need to improve.
Thank you. This is exactly why the concept of the Grey Jedi is so stupid and usually only present in ignorant fan discussions, where people love to be both contrarian and "centrist" in everything. Just be a Jedi if you want to control your emotions and do good for others. The real issue is if the Jedi forfeit their values to fight in a war that caused darkness to descend on them and the galaxy. This doesn't mean the Jedi themselves are bad. There are arguments that can be made if the Jedi are always meant to fail at some point, but that's different than saying the Jedi are inherently bad in their ideology. People just want a one-or-the-other approach with everything, even their entertainment, ffs. People are so lazy.
I can only think of two and i know the one I'm going to mention will get some trouble if anyone reads it but hey. Starkiller and Luke Skywalker. Luke skywalker showed a few times that he was more than willing to use the dark side of the force, like when he murdered the two gamorian guards in jaba's palace, and starkiller who never was really corrupted by the darkside and seems to always be quite stressed and questioning of what ue was doing during his missions
And yet Lukes order in legends was able to have families, get married, form attachments etc and were fine so that makes a lot of the arguments that the Jedi were right in doing what they did actually false
@Lokabrenna I've said it before, but you don't even need anything but TPM to show Jinn as the ass he is. Multiple times he shouts down Obi-Wan's feelings/opinions, and the only time he praises his Padawan is after Obi-Wan apologizes for thinking differently. He then tells the Council (with Obi-Wan right there) that he's taking on this kid as a Padawan and no one can stop him. Obi-Wan being "ready for his trials" was only said once he was challenged on the decision and fact you can't have more than one Padawan. And then his dying breath is to demand Obi-Wan to train the kid he was going to abandon Obi-Wan for.
@@spideysg1163 yet qui gon was at will with the force and the entire jedi order wasnt? what was it the will of the force said had to be done the jedi had to be destroyed as they were because they had fallen from the path. so no the jedi did not get it righ.
@@spideysg1163 Absolutely agree. Jinn had the philosophy of "the Force wills it" to explain not only when/why things happened, but also to allow him to do things (The Force led him to Anakin so OBVIOUSLY it's okay to cheat the chance die to win Anakin's slave contract). This philosophy could easily be twisted by Anakin into excusing everything he does. After all, he's the Chosen One.
Everyone has to work with moral compromised governments, it's part of living in a world where different people have different morals. Churchill worked with Stalin in WWII. The United States currently works with dictators. That's reality. Because you can't impose your morals on other people.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi We never see the Jedi push back on slavery, or really corruption either (that I know of - which is limited). Acknowledge it maybe but that's all. Why not see something like this after a battle: Planet leaders "Oh thank you Jedi Master for saving the free peoples of planet X!" Jedi Master "Oh really? & what about the slaves on this planet? Are they thankful? Or have you finally gotten rid of that disgusting practice? I hope so because next time I might not hear your distress call."
@@FirstNameLastName-tg3rc Yeah I know, but the fact is your government (regardless of where you live) is making deals with undemocratic dictatorships right now. My point is that regardless of other nations having lesser morals, you are not allowed to impose your own morals onto them and part of living in reality requires that you still work with them.
@@markuhler2664 Slavery was outlawed in the Republic. Jedi were rarely if ever called to non-Republic planets that might have had slavery so I don't think the scenario you proposed at the end of you comment would ever happen. In the films, it seems very likely that the Jedi helped abolish slavery and in the Clone Wars, it's even explicitly stated that the Jedi broke the Zygarian Slave Empire.
This was refreshing. Lots of people judge the Jedi as if they were normal people living in modern day earth society. And a lot of people just dislike the very concept of any religion and feel entitled to hate on it as a matter of course (especially if it’s fictional.) Further, others use the fallacy of attacking someone for doing an imperfect job, as if their accomplishments cannot matter unless total success is achieved. Any organization that is large enough and lasts long enough will have members that betray their ideals, or outsiders who attack them based on limited, superficial knowledge. Were the Jedi perfect? No. Did a profoundly evil mastermind manipulate them and ultimately destroy them? Yes. Do either of these facts mean we should ignore all their service and efforts? I hope not
The Jedi's strict adherence to their way of doing things is what led to Anakin's fall, long before he and Padme began their (I agree, ill-advised) relationship. Anakin had an attachment to his mother, and even if the Jedi could not stop all slavery in the galaxy, they *could* help this one family. They already made an exception by allowing Anakin into the Order in the first place. There was *nothing* stopping them from returning to Tatooine shortly after the events of Episode I with something Watto *would* value and buying Shmi's freedom. It would have been no problem at all for them to set up Shmi with a nice apartment on Coruscant and continuing to let Anakin see her. The Jedi *knew* what Anakin feared most was losing his mother, and should have done whatever was necessary to destroy that fear. Instead, they stuck to their traditions and let an innocent woman die, and her son, whose only previous "crime" had been to love his mother, fall to the Dark Side.
Given that she had given food, shelter, and protection to two Jedi and their charge at risk to herself (especially given there was a genuine Sith on the planet hunting for them), what stops them from wiring enough to buy her freedom and bullshitting it as "services rendered?" Even the Hutts would recognize that a legit business transaction.
Speaking of that Qui-Gon Jinn was a complete idiot as well. He was interested in freeing both Anakin and his mother but yet when Anakin wins the race he seemed to have forgotten that he could have just bought her with his winnings Watto most likely have agreed since it sounds like he lost alot of money and would probably have been desperate for some way of getting it back. Which even if it meant that officially she was Qui-Gon's slave at that point still better than just leaving her on a planet where you can do pretty much anything you want so long as you didn't do anything to tick off the Hurts.
I think the jedi's largest mistake was allowing themselves to be too interconnected with the Republic. While on the grander scale, the Republic was the best ally the Jedi could get, it had also damaged their image either their ability to take larger actions were restricted by the Republic itself or being seen as enforcers for what some could see as Core World Rule especially when on diplomatic missions were the Jedi's reputation as near invincible warriors struck fear into those who wish to challenge the authority of the Republic.
@Nathan .Z Don't forget anyone with Force power would strike fear into even your allies, because you never know what they're up to. Force users have power you do not, hence subject to suspicion which will escalate.
The Jedi were not responsible for whatever assumptions other individuals had about them. They didn't tell anybody to think of them as invincible warriors or the Republic's enforcers. While it may have been a mistake to associate themselves with the Republic, doing so gave them the opportunity to do the most amount of good without having to enforce their own will on the galaxy.
I’d like to add that the Jedi order did NOT always have the good in their hearts, they enforced the Republic’s doctrines and rules. Just look at the rise of General Grievous, his society was allowed to be hunted, enslaved and killed by other beings just because those beings were part of the Republic Senate. This case was particularly horrible, as the siding of the Jedi with slavers and criminals, caused the rise of one of their greatest and most dangerous adversary.
@@Spartan3D213 More commonly the Sith Lords create enemies for them. Grievous is an example of that. Even if his hatred was instilled by the Republic’s galactic-size misstep, he would not have been made into such a devastating foe (and really more of a PR campaign to inspire fear and hatred of the CIS) without Sidious and Dooku.
If the alternative is those same children growing up to become mass-murdering, genocidal lunatics with raging god complexes (which all Sith are to some extent), then I think you're going to find it very difficult to get other people to agree with your opinion.
@@GamerX51 Lies, Sith are a way of life for them and are different from Dark Jedi or even some one who is attuned with the force who have still grown attachments. problem is star wars never really goes into detail about children who are force sensitive and their parents decline to let the order take their child, having powers and growing up with loving parents does not mean they would turn into sith without the Jedi around
@@devildavin The ones with Force powers will join one Order or the other because they are naturally attracted to developing their powers And if the Jedi don't take them in, the Sith will find them (and it would be a lot worse then)
@@GamerX51 This is proof Kriea is correct, if being raised in a healthy environment leads to the dark side, and the only alternative is becoming slaves to the force. Then the logical conclusion is the force itself is evil, and the dark side an inevitability. So therefore the force must be destroyed.
@@trajancaesar2662 Yes, that totally won't kill everything in the galaxy at all, considering all life flows from the Force, and paradoxically the Force flows from all life. Can't have one without the other. Not to mention Kreia's a manipulative, nihilistic liar who strings you along for her petty revenge against the Council and the Sith Triumvirate.
I know and understand why it's next to impossible to use both sides of the force. But didn't a sith say that the dark side was like venom, which you think would make the light side the cure. I'm only saying that because master Yaddle knew dark side force abilities, yet she was one of if not the most pure jedi ever. She was essentially like the mother of the jedi order. So would that make it possible for jedi to learn some dark side abilities only using them if they were necessary, like against other sith.
If you ask me, Obi-Wan is most to blame for Anakin’s fall, really. He let his emotions, his feeling of owing Qui Gon, fulfilling his promise to the man, get in the way of the fact that logically speaking, he was a poor fit to be Anakin’s master. Anakin was old enough that he had attachments, and Obi Wan on the other hand was a newly Knighted Jedi without the experience necessary to handle taking on an unusual Padawan like Anakin. If he had put aside his feelings, he likely would have recognised that instead of training Anakin himself, he could have fulfilled his promise to Qui Gon by convincing a far more experienced Jedi, preferably a Master, to train Anakin. One who could accomodate Anakin’s unusually strong emotional attachments and better teach him to put aside his feelings and let the force guide him. Ultimately, Anakin needed a Master who was far more like Qui Gon himself than Obi-Wan. This isn’t Obi-Wan bashing, I love the guy and, there is a level of secondary blame to be placed on the council for allowing Obi-Wan to be his master. But I do truly think that with a better master Anakin’s fall could have been avoided. In theory, in terms of experience perhaps Yoda himself should have overseen Anakin’s training, but I doubt that would have worked as personality-wise they would not have meshed. I’m not sure who would be the best fit, but it wasn’t Obi-Wan.
Very little actual textual evidence for this videos assertion. The jedai pretty much just trained extremely competent force vessels with almost no ability to resist the dark side and sent them out into the galaxy. This, in turn, lead to hapless jedai being drawn to dark side objects and nexuses and nearly always being corrupted to the point they become a threat to the whole galaxy. Maybe if the jedai order bothered to train their people in basic emotional coping mechanisms instead of focusing almost exclusively on their own purity maybe they would stop being the genesis of 90% of the galaxy's civilization breaking problems.
well it goes back prequel era code of the Jedi. there is no emotion but peace. There is no passion, there is serenity. The code tell Jedi suppress negative emotions to not fall to dark side. They where no taught how channel their emotions into the force. gray Jedi conquer their dark side can channel emotional states that are gray. How ever this lead to disagreement with Jedi order.
The jedai used both sides of the force and it corrupted them trying to maintain balance. they also didnt send them out into the galaxy. the dark jedai escaped and found the Sith. The current jedi of the prequels did teach how to control emotions and handle grief and suffering, anakin just ignored it all
I think that Anakin and Padme's relationship became unhealthy in a large part due to necessity to keep it a secret.They were forced to "live a lie" and couldn't even get a relationship advice or go to therapy together lol. So yes, the jedi code of the time was to blame for Anakin's fall.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi He could, but then he'd be letting his master and the Order down, and he didn't want that. Forcing him to choose between the Order, which was his family, and his lover was unnecessary and could be avoided if the jedi allowed relationships and instead simply taught to not be possesive in them.
The weird thing is, Obi Wan totally knew about Anakin and Padme. But he never offered any advice and Anakin never asked for it. Then again, considering Obi Wan's weird relationship with Satine, he probably wasn't the best guy to turn to for relationship advice.
In my opinion Anakin was supposed to expose everything wrong with the Jedi, especially the “no attachment philosophy”. When Anakin was brought to the Jedi council he already formed an attachment, and of course “he’s to old”. In my opinion the prequel trilogy is a story of how bad ideas even in good faith are what ultimately led to the defeat of the Jedi, Anakin is of course to blame for a lot of his actions but the Jedi unknowingly yet willingly pushed him there. In a good timeline I see Anakin being taught by Qui Gon Jin. He would have taught him how to use the force, how to love. How to be selfish and selfless when right. Not to use the force for his own gain. And not to fear the dark side. It’s ultimately the Jedi’s absolutist fear of the dark side that leads to their repeated demise. When I saw Yoda see his dark side self in The Clone Wars series I thought of the dark side similar to the shadow self. The shadow self is basically the part of ourselves we hide from others. The Jedi try to push away all ideas and possibilities of attachment but an endeavor such as that could never be successful. To do that would defy human existence, what is it worth loving everyone if you can’t have one or more persons to really love. I believe the Jedi just push their attachments into their shadow selves. Which is even deadlier because now their attachments are strengthened even more by the dark side. Balance doesn’t mean giving halfway into the destructive lifestyle of the force it just means being capable of being your selfish needs without getting in the way of others needs.
The PT movies show the Jedi to be right. They’re right about attachment (unhealthy relationships), they’re right that Anakin doesn’t have the emotional balance to safely become a Jedi, they’re right that marriage will conflict with the duties of a Jedi, and they’re right about fear leading to the Dark Side. The prequels validate the Jedi, and Vader serves as a cautionary tale of the price of ignoring the rules.
True, attachment to anything hurts a lot when something or someone to what or whom you are attached hurts a lot. To know if you are attached think of the person or thing like you don't have it and look at what you fell
@@markuhler2664 Yes and you have every right to say they are too secretive, but the fact is even a perfect government would have some secrets. Like military and intelligence stuff they need to make sure their enemies don't get wind of.
There is no emotion and there is no passion. Also no therapy. Simple fact. Out of the terrifying sith lords many of them actually came back to the light only because of attachments. Strangely if the ban was successful anakin would never return.tere would be no Luke.
You overlooked 2 important details: 1. Kyber crystals - the Jedi hoarded and monopolized them. 2. The parents may have given consent but the children who might never see their families again did not.
The whole point of the Je'daii is that they were wrong. Their story ended with them realizing that the Dark Side, in any measure, is a threat to life itself, simply by existing. It was a lesson they learned the hard way, but a lesson they learned nonetheless.
@@geetslys The thing I don’t get is if the dark side is so corrupting then how did they last as long as they did? It’s not likely figured this out in one generation, they were doing the whole light dark thing for a while before things got out of hand.
@@geetslys I dissagree, the real reason they stopped doing that is because The Rakata scared them from bogun, they were completely fine with it being part of their balanced teaching before that.
On the transport ship taking them to Naboo in AOTC they have this exchange: Padmé: Must be difficult, having sworn your life to the Jedi, not be able to visit the places you like or do the things you like. Anakin: Or be with the people that I love. Padmé: Are you allowed to love? I thought that was forbidden for a Jedi. Anakin: Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi’s life. So you might say that we are encouraged to love. which I would define as unconditional love, - this is Anakin’s view on the matter and he’s like this in TPM so this is something he learned from his mom not the Jedi. So you might say that we are encouraged to love. - This is the weakest affirmation I’ve ever heard. If Jedi are allowed to love Anakin should just be able to answer Yes to Padmé’s question but what he does is say No with more words. Seriously if you have to give a 30 word answer to a Yes or No question the answer is No. Padmé and Anakin were also fine together. The Clovis arc is a shit story and he beats the guy nearly to death when he walks in on him forcing himself on Padmé and as he entered we can clearly hear Padmé say “Clovis, no.”
While Anakin's fall wasnt explicitly the Jedi's fault, it was a foreseeable event with the most basic of rational ability, expounded by the Jedis' fallible code. Take a slave, with all the trauma that implies, then try to induct them into another highly restrictive order(that ultimately is just another form of slavery) without ever addressing underlying trauma and you get chaos and catastrophe. The jedi order failed as a whole to perform what a child psychologist or social worker could have done. And considering the Jedi just bans emotional attachments, but Anakin had already formed the attachment prior to the ban, and had no real world example or anybody he could go to for help concerning his attachment to Padme, and you get someone completely ignorant into how to behave or handle such attachments. He had no parents to draw on, no mentors he could ask(its banned). So you have an adult with the emotional maturity of a child in an order that refuses to provide any guidance aside from "Don't experience that thing youve already experienced".
Still think the no emotional attachments thing could've used some revision probably just teaching healthy relationships and cooping with the loss of loved ones Revan start of darkness was the horrors of the Mandalorian war attempting to avoid those scenarios does nothing when they do happen and not all are going to have the same emotional fortitude even Luke's Jedi order eased up on that rule.
they do teach the jedi how to have healthy relationships and control their emotions..anakin ignored all of that, because he ha dhis own pre conceived ideas about the world since he was like 9 years old when he became a jedi
The Jedi members of the Clone War era had healthy relationships. As the presentation pointed out, Anakin had such an unhealthy attachment to ppl to the point where he basically viewed them as his possessions. Like other ppl, you can't seem to tell the difference between having a healthy relationship and a possessive relationship. Luke didn't have the same relationship with Mara that Anakin did with Padme.
The main misconception everyone has about Jedi and their version of ‘balance’ of the force. They don’t mean balance so much as Harmony. Because the Dark Side is a disruption in the force that undoes the balance and harmony of the force.
The odds of Yoda being a Ketamine addict and getting shot to death while attempting to rob mc Donalds are low but never zero
He a menace
This is explains why jedi did nothing when they discovered that clone army was sith idea
Actually the odds of Yoda attempting to rob a Mc Donalds is zero, there is no Mc Donalds in the galaxy far far away.
I imagined it and laughed.
@@darwinskeeper421 perhaps, or maybe they're are just few enough that we never saw any. The ecumenopoli like coruscant have so much unexplored territory (literally millions of times of the livable space of earth) that there could be nearly anything there alone, not to mention the rest of the galaxy. Remeber that we basically have seen rural backwaters currently under development, destroyed warzones and ecumenopolis main aerial corridors near the surface. All sorts of nonsense probably lie just off screen and if they got a product placement payout you KNOW theyd find a way to sneak it into some corner lol
While I agree that Anakin had an unhealthy obsession with Padme that certainly contributed to his fall to the dark side, I'd argue the fact that he was manipulated by Sidious over the course of 13 years was a much larger factor.
Tbh were I in Anakin's postition, it would be natural to favour him to Yoda. One tells us the necessary advice, another manipulates with our desires
Exactly. Would you trust an all-powerful spacw wizardwho sits with people who didn't trust you and argued against you joining, or a diplomatic, kind, helpful, equally wise person who has always understood and helped you.
Perhaps he was manipulated (probably with liberal use of the Dark Side, on top of that) to obsess with Padme specifically to take advantage of their connection to put Anakin into a rock-and-a-hard-place situation emotionally. Especially since Sidious's plans for Anakin would have also taken the war into account to further pressure him in all the desired ways.
The dark side can’t be destroyed. Everyone-Forceful or not-have darkness within them. What makes a person who they are is whether or not they let it overwhelm them.
The jedi were about balance they didn't seek to eradicate the more violent aspects of existence on the contrary they welcomed them they constantly trained to master lightsaber combat and force powers because conflict and struggle were just as much a part of the force as the other more benign aspects of it.
Well, the dark side is an alegory for vice. Everyone is tempted by vices but, in the end, you can choose to refuse indulging in them.
One of my favorite scenes in the Legends EU was from the novel Yoda: Dark Rendezvous. Yoda, while making a serious and nearly successful attempt to turn Count Dooku back to the lightside, reveals that he too, the grand jedi master himself, always feels the pull of his own darkside. Which is the reason he can tell that Dooku, after all this time, still feels the pull of the light.
Hmmm well said good man....
Do you not think there is a difference between the dark side or a rogue jedi and the Sith , the dark side cant be destroyed but the Sith order could right ?
Remember that time in comics sidious had dooku reroute an ENTIRE battalion to one hodunk planet with no strategic value just to kill one padawan and his master because they thought to test everyone in the senate for midicloreans?
Ronhar Kim and Tap Nar Pal, for those curious.
The former came from Naboo and became a friend of Palpatine, while the latter is a male Cerean like Ki Adi Mundi.
why did they only get that idea during the clone wars?
@@user-ft3jq5vi2l Palpatine: Call me 'The Senate'
@@crumb167 why would they do it sooner? We dont take blood tests of every politician. Why should they? For the one in 7 trillion chance one of them is force sensitive? And what then, what do you do then? They are too old to become jedi, being force sensitive isn't illegal. So what's the point?
@@Julian-pw5mv it probably should be considering how much pain and death force users have brought to the galaxy
A misconception I want to debunk is Ahsoka and Qui Gon are not grey Jedi. They are true Jedi.
If this doesn’t get comment of the week next week imma riot
Qui gon is more of a "Maverick" Jedi
Nice no-true-Scotsman fallacy, buddy.
**Lego True Jedi sound**
Qui Gon yeah I get that but I thought in rebels they confirmed she was a grey
I remember Qui Gon about being a Jedi
“..it’s a hard life.”
No kidding. If only everybody in the jedi order acknowledged this.
@HardPhoenixRock
It is the fandom who needs to acknowledge it.
Thanks, I have to admit it was nice to see a solid argument for the jedi since it seems like every edge lord on the internet is hellbent on tearing them down
Hot take: Both the Sith and Jedi orders died on Russan.
Cold take: both the Sith and Jedi orders died in Russia.
@@honkeykong4049 only KK would laugh at that joke
@@AncestorEmpire1
kk
@@honkeykong4049 Cold Take, huh?
Wasn't it called Ruusan?
One of my favorite lines from The Clone Wars
Ahsoka:”I quit being a Jedi.”
The Sisters:”You can quit being a Jedi?!”
*The* Clone Wars; it may seem unimportant, but without the The you are actually referring to the (amazing) 2003 series by Gennady Tartakovsky.
@@Getsugaru regardless of which you look at, you get an amazing story
We don't talk about the sisters
I mean. 99% of people dont know shit about the jedi. Anakin thought they were basically gods in phantom menace. Most people didn't really know what a jedi even was, to most people they were just, to quote a wise man "lightsaber wielding maniacs."
Lol.
People: the Jedi are incompetent
The thousands of generations they protected: are we a joke to you?
Thousands of Jedi who literally saved millions of lives on-screen in the Prequels and Clone Wars and were the only force stopping the Sith from taking over the galaxy: Are we are joke to you?
Also Luke who defeated the Sith by letting go of his hate like a true Jedi: Am I a joke to you?
@@ryanpiercy3390 Do you live in a relatively country free from serious oppression? Do you also acknowledge that in other countries there is oppression?
If you answered yes to both these questions then congratulations, you live in an imperfect world where some people are free and others are not. The fact is, it's impossible to protect everyone because you can't go to other nations and impose your will on them even if you think you are right.
So yes, slavery existed in non-Republic territories, but the Jedi don't have jurisdiction to go there and free them. But you know who eliminated slavery in the Republic? The Jedi. So I'd say they did a pretty good job of protecting people in the area they were responsible for.
@@ryanpiercy3390 let’s also consider the fact that there is basically large swathes of history of the jedi screwing up and letting multiple empires being found and plunging the galaxy in to civil war time and time again. Long story short the galaxy would be safer if the Jedi didn’t exist
@@hotrod506 Oh I’m sure the billions that have lived thanks to their protection from the multitude of Sith Empires would heavily disagree.
@@strategist40k86 And exactly where did these Sith come from again?
I think the core issue with the Hate against the Jedi is that most people don't truly get that being a Jedi is not simply being a mere "Space Cop". Jedi are the Elite of the Elite, they're tasked with safeguarding an ENTIRE GALAXY, noy just some neighborhood. The responsibility they carry on their backs is so big, that they cannot strive towards anything less than perfect. It sounds radical but it has to be. You cannot fight pure evil with a bit of good.
The problem is that most people head canon themselves as Jedi, but they don't want to give up a large percent of their humanity. They want to be the saviors of the Galaxy, but they also want their Sunday lunches with their families. In short, people want everything, and I'm sorry to break it to you, but you can't have everything in life. Life is about choice, and the Jedi choose to put everything before themselves, so much, that they're willing to give up their chance at a normal life, to keep you safe, even if you hate them. And for such selfless sacrifice, the Jedi will always have my respect, no matter how flawed they may be
Yes, ISB agent. This guy right here.
Indian school of business?
@@sirts1 Imperial Security Bureau.
@@sirts1 lol
He will go to the spice mines on Kessel
@@ontasbulent5709 Reeductation
Jedi would often use the line 'There is no emotion, there is peace' as a mantra when trying to calm themselves down when angry or scared. Honestly seems like clear evidence that it was less about restricting emotion and more about keeping themselves from freaking out and doing something they could regret.
Just goes to show how awful the Jedi order was at the whole 'controlling their emotions' business
I'll admit, this video did make me rethink my thoughts on the Jedi Order a bit, although I still feel like they're a little flawed. In regards to their thoughts on attachments, I completely get why they use the methods they use, although I personally believe they aren't focusing on the effects of attachments in the right way. Instead of trying to prevent/limit strong attachments to avoid the effects those attachments have on a Jedi, they should've focused on helping Jedi be able to react to such losses or fears of loss rather than leaving it to the person suffering such losses. After all, the desire to protect someone out of the fear of losing them, as well as grief and its stages, are in my opinion two of the deadliest corrupting influences a Jedi can fall to. Plus those attachments are undeniably important even though the emotions driven by them can cause the Dark Side to fester within someone, but it doesn't help when someone who HAS those kinds of attachments has no appropriate or healthy way to react to the fears of those attachments being severed or the actual severance of attachments. Anakin in my eyes doesn't just represent how important adherence to the Jedi Code really is, but also how the Jedi kind of failed to properly help Anakin, although in fairness to them, he didn't tell the Order about the things that would end up pushing him over the edge, such as the death of his mother and the fear of losing Padmé, but the point still stands that the Order could've done better with someone like Anakin.
If you ask me, the Jedi were right in their ideas and most of their practices, but some practices were *just* imperfect enough to bring things crashing down.
That was what the Je'daii, the Original Order whose Philosophy was abandoned after meeting the Rakata. The Je'daii Misinterpreted the Rakata's Societal Corruption and Obsession with the most Corrupt version of the Dark Side Anyone ever Encountered (war with the Rakata changed the Sith Species' Philosophy, corrupting it Considerably) as the Only way to see the Dark Side (as they almost failed to defeat them), so I can understood their Fear of the Corruption the Dark Side is Capable of, but not their Terror, as they Already had an answer for this. The Je'daii's Shock at the Utter Depravity if the Rakata (who really were the Worst Version of the Dark Side you can think of, Vitate notwithstanding) was to form an Order Ever More Polarized than the Rakata, that decided Right from Qrong based on a Shell-shocked Order's Belief that the Only way to Prevent another group like the Rakata from Forming was to ruthlessly Hunt those who used the Dark Side in an Endless (and Extremely Misguided) Crusade to Preserve the Light from the Dark, No Matter the Cost. The Jedi have Almost Never had much interest whether those who used the Dark Side were Ignorant of its Dangers, or were doing it for Selfish Pleasure. Case in Point: Lorian Nod, who had looked into a Sith Holocron without Permission, and was Kicked Out of the Jedi Order for it, even though he was Contrite, had Thoroughly Learned his Lesson from the Experience, and would Never have done such a thing Afterwards. Nod's "Lotal Jedi" Friend, Dooku, who Ratted him out to save himself, is the Epitome of the Jedi Order's Arrogance, as he was an Anti-alien Racist and a Bigot his Entire Life, Despite his Complete Loyalty to the Order throughout the Majority of his Life.
The biggest issue I have is Yoda’s words, “Grieve not.” Geetsly claims that the Jedi never demanded lack of emotion, but the minute you deny someone the right to process through grief, or make the potential for grief the thing to be avoided, you set them up to fail. The Jedi Council were in many ways apathetic to the distress of others. They wanted to keep order, maintain the status quo (and their reputation), but I found it difficult to believe they the order as a whole actually cared about the common people. This reminds me of the zealous legalism seen all-too often in real-world religions. And it seems that was the reputation the Jedi Order was garnering from the people of the Republic by the end of the clone wars: that they were happy to enforce the will of the Senate but had no care for the distress of the people. While that was not their intent, that was what they were communicating.
I do agree with Geetsly that Anakin’s relationship with Padmé was inherently unhealthy just in general; and that it was a huge part of the problem.
@@rivendells_shona It was not the will of the Senate to do anything about the Trade Federation blockade however, the Jedi willingly took up the (possibly illegal) request of Chancellor Valorum to negotiate.
I’m glad you said it so well. Their tenets may be righteous but their execution of those tenets was flawed. They tried to exclude the dark but sometimes the dark must be understood and coped-with - the Jedi fell short in terms of turning ignorance into knowledge because their fear made them into gatekeepers of necessary knowledge, trusting too few with an understanding of the darkness necessary to cope-with and resolve darkness when it takes hold.
I totally agree with you💖 instead of fearing something so much so that you go to the extremes of barricading youself inside walls and shells to protect yourself, you should instead know or learn how to deal with them in a healthy way. Instead of actually killing the sith entirely and try to erase them from existence they should've helped those who had fallen into the dark side or try to understand and see things from their points of view, to prevent repeating those same mistakes and learn from them.
"Jedi temple a safe welcoming place"
*Looks at anakin being called a slave to his emotions and shunned by other younglings*
Sure welcoming lol
Ehhh he became more popular when he got older.
That was introduced in the EU and it actually seems to contradict the films. The Jedi in the films seemed very keen on making sure younglings were treated well and would have absolutely stepped in if they saw a youngling being bullied.
Because not only is it very damaging to the victim, it dangerous because the vindictive bullies themselves are potential Jedi and you simply cannot have a vindictive Jedi. If there really were bullies who were younglings, they would have either had to apologize and be kinder (as humility and kindness are key Jedi traits) or leave the Order. Because there is no way the Jedi would ever let a youngling who's a bully advance to the next rank.
yes and kids are little shits what else is new
Forget the younglings, let's talk about how welcoming some members of the Council were.
@@ramarblood7697 Not at all, remember Windu, Yoda, all the decisions behind his back, limited access to the library and outrageous position on the council.
The Jedi Order were a organization that if legends were taken as truth they are older than the Galactic Republic’s itself, and no doubt they survive thru those years with knowledge of the threats that the Dark Side poses.
Legends? You mean the true canon, right?
Legends is canon, most of it at least. Some, I'll admit, were confusing and shouldn't be canon, but most of the legends lore was amazing. Disney threw it all away just to make the trash that they call Star Wars. Really hope Dave Filoni decides to decanonize them, since he's now the head of creative decisions at lucasfilm.
@@dakotatrue12 the reason why legends was decanonized was because it contradicted the movies and shows
@@SergioLeonardoCornejo thank you legends is the true canon to hell with Disney and Darth mouse thank you friend👍☺️
Yeah but they could at least send someone to buy the Shmi Skywalker from Watto and find her a better place to live. That would make Anakin more attached to order and maybe even abandon some of his noble but illegal plans.
IIRC Qui-Gon did that in the EU.
Watto refused to sell her
@@ninjaked1265 the only reason he refused to sell her was the fact that they simply could not afford to buy both Anakin and Shmi. If they sent someone with enough credits she would be free in no time.
Now I think we can also blame Naboo for her fate, Anakin literally saved entire planet and they didn’t even try to return the favour.
@@kozaamovies1779 actually Padmé tried to free Shmi.
Shmi was doing fine until the raiders came tbh
When I consider how the Jedi are at the peak of their connection to the Light Side of the Force, I get to thinking of the ancient Greek philosophical school of Stoicism.
It is a school of thought that emphasizes virtue as being the ultimate good, that the things outside of one's own control ought to be regarded as 'indifferents' and that the thing we are most in control of is how we respond to the events around us. The concept of 'Logos' that they also espoused has its parallels with the Force.
Like the Jedi, the Stoics also face misconceptions about them that their teachings revolve around not feeling your emotions... after all, emotion is natural, and what is natural is more or less one of those things outside one's own control. Feeling the feelings is fine (after all, Obi Wan Kenobi certainly felt strong feelings of broken heartedness upon seeing how far Anakin had fallen, which he cries out after cutting Anakin apart from the high ground)... it's the extent to which we let those feelings have free reign over our minds that is the issue. Do you let those emotions consume you? Or do you step back within your own mind and consciousness and observe how you feel and whether or not it serves the ultimate good (which is virtue) to surrender to that emotion.
That is a really good explanation of the Jedi and an excellent comparison with real-world philosophy. You also taught me something new, so thank you.
semi joke comment here, can we talk about how duchess satine had a "nephew" that looked like a perfect mix between her and obi wan
And cut to flashback of her sneaking into his room while he's sleeping with a specimen jar
Oh, I definitely support that fan-theory. It is just a theory, but it fits together really, really...really neatly.
@@CollinMcLeanWHAT?!
Jude Watson's Jedi Apprentice series had a great understanding of what "There is no emotion, there is peace". In one chapter, Qui-Gon was described as looking at his feelings as a Jedi would: accepting it as being there, analyze why it was there, realising the implications and follies from this emotion, then let it go. This is what was meant by "there is no emotion, there is peace".
As Lucas’s DVD commentaries make clear, he based the Jedi religion on Zen Buddhism. Buddhists and Jedi have a specific definition of attachment-the inability to let go of people and things, and the selfish need to posses. Shmi demonstrates how to love without being attached by allowing Anakin to leave her and be freed. The prequels also show us attachment, where horrible actions are taken in the name of people who would never have approved.
RUclips has tons of videos on Zen Buddhism. They’re a good place to start if you want to understand the Jedi.
Totally agree, I get quite annoyed when some people say that balance of the force means balancing dark and light. Dark side is specifically *disturbance* in the force. Aka, it's things going out of balance. No matter how you use dark side, it always adds up to more unbalance.
There is no darkness with out light and vice versa
Cough qui gon Jin, yoda, Mace windu, luke skywalker, Mara jade, Cade
True. While Light-Dark Side balance much a very popular interpretation, if you go by George Lucas’s words, the Dark Side is pretty much the disturbance itself. Causing the Force to be out balance in the first place.
@@StocktonSmurf why did you name those random people
Harmony is actuallt the more well-rounded term.
I find it so disheartening that some people actually think that Sith were in the right.
It’s honestly scary how many people have no problem siding with the Sith. The Jedi aren’t perfect but they still act to defend the galaxy, unlike the Sith who don’t care who or what they tear down in order to crave their desire for power.
because those people know they could never be a competent jedi
İt is disturbing that people would rather commit mass murders instead of regulating their emotions.
Not to mention they can even choose to neither be a jedi or a sith
I feel like videos like these are extremely important in and for the Star Wars fandom because it is insane how much Anti-Jediism there is among fans and how badly it’s expressed by them, especially in misinterpretations and how hollowly they think about them before coming to a conclusion or something. What’s worse is that more or less of these Jedi criticisms by fans seem to sound suspiciously a lot like Sidious’s claims, a Dark Lord of the Sith who sought to destroy the Jedi reputation intentionally as much as he could.
When somebody says the Jedi are evil and genuinely believe it, it’s like, you do realize that Darth Sidious is still the *bad guy,* right? Imperfection doesn’t necessarily mean shithead.
A few Jedi have told Ahsoka and Anakin at different times to recognize their negative emotion, acknowledge and then let it flow through.
anakin ignored them.ahsoka didnt
"The road to ruin, is paved with best intentions"
Coming back to this video again... I do get to thinking about how the relationship between Anakin Skywalker and Padme was a terrible idea from the start. Unfortunately it was because they were preparing to die in the Petranaki Arena that it could even happen. Up to that point even Anakin despite his strong feelings had agreed not to go ahead... but believing they were about to get torn to shreds by an acklay within the next couple of minutes put things in perspective, which ironically sealed Anakin's fate.
Of course, this doesn't mean that every romantic relationship was doomed to send a Jedi to the Dark Side. Take Revan and Bastila Shan for example... it was their love for each other that ultimately saved each other from the Dark Side (especially Bastila), and while Revan was hiding in a cave on Dromund Kaas, pictures of Bastila served to help comfort him despite knowing that he might never see her again or ever meet their son. Of course, it helps that theirs' was a healthier relationship than the one between Anakin and Padme.
Of course... given how open ended SWtOR is, ships in that game are ambiguous when it comes to whether or not they actually would have happened but my Jedi Knight certainly had a healthy relationship with Kira Carsen... even though her background as daughter of Sith from Dromund Kaas and a former Child of the Emperor made it impossible for them to apply for the exemption to the general rule the Order had against Jedi romance. The reunion at the end of the main storyline in Onslaught demonstrated that despite her longing so badly to go back to him, she still nonetheless maintained her Jedi resolve, even with only Lord Scourge, a Sith as company while they engaged on their own quest to help ensure the Emperor never returns.
Also, while it has been relegated to Legends, Kyle Katarn eventually engaged in a romance with his partner in crime and pilot Jan Ors and stayed on the straight and narrow regardless. Granted that was under Luke Skywalker's Jedi Order which did not restrict romantic relationships, as he himself had one of the most legendary Jedi romances with Mara Jade, and it was their budding relationship that helped her overcome Palpatine's influence and go down the path of a Jedi.
There is also the Green Jedi, Corellia's own distinct offshoot of the Jedi Order, who never forbade romance... as many of their ranks were from prominent Corellian aristocracy and were concerned with maintaining their family bloodlines. Of course, in that context they likely viewed marriage the way that feudal dynasties of our medieval era did... a business transaction... so not a whole lot of room for forming attachments compared to the average person.
I certainly do understand why the post-Ruusan Jedi Order right up to the Clone Wars were so hellbent on forbidding romance amongst their ranks... the example of Anakin Skywalker is the most blatant example of what it was they were trying to protect the galaxy from by enacting that rule. And despite all of that, Obi Wan Kenobi did love Duchess Satine that way. He was even willing to leave the life of a Jedi behind if she asked him to. Though it seems to have been more of a benefit to the galaxy that she did not take that step and he remained committed to the Jedi.
That said... it was far from the only way to deal with some of the icky things that romance draws out that, if left unchecked can lead to the Dark Side.
Hell... the last example I will present is not a Jedi at all (well... former Jedi)... Jaesa Willsaam... the former Padawan of the Jedi Master Nomen Karr and Sith apprentice to the Sith Warrior who would come to be known as the Empire's Wrath. My Sith Warrior did pursue this relationship and it led to her deciding she wasn't going to do that typical Sith act of betraying her master to usurp his position because she loved him. Such an un-Sith-like attitude she has taken despite how wholeheartedly she otherwise embraced the Dark Side... the complete opposite to Darth Malgus, who murdered Eleena Daru, because he figured that his love for her made him weak, inhibited his connection to the Dark Side.
While most of the rules the original Jedi made had the right ideas on most fronts they still have flaws in them that don't take into account on how different forms of negative emotions and selfish desires can manifest and what the Jedi during the PT did to enforce them certainly only made them worst or at least not any better. For example not having any attachments can lead into lack of empathy and understanding to people who aren't like you thus at best making one ignorant as well as out of touch of the outside world and at worst arrogant and thinking you're better then people who have attachments. It's especially bad for force users who have different ways of handling emotions and stress then others like Anakin. Just because the practice they had worked for some Jedi doesn't mean it'll work for all of them. It's why a lot of people say the Jedi Order was just as responsible for Anakin's fall to the dark side because yes a lot of his fall was due to his choices, what the Jedi order did at the time did not help matters as they should have, thus they share the same blame for Darth Vader's creation as Anakin.
In the end despite them having superhuman powers they're still not perfect beings and yes they have the right intentions and goals no one can deny that. The problem is that by becoming too legalistic and not willing to think twice about does it make sense to enforce this rule or not they've only created a new set of problems for themselves and everyone else around them.
The only thing I can say in response to the Jedi being responsible for Anakin's fall is that the numbers disagree. In the Golden Age, very few Jedi fell to the Dark Side, meaning it is almost impossible for there to have been any systemic flaw that contributed to falling. Not that they didn't have other flaws, though as stated in the video, their hands were kind of tied by their position in the government. It could also be the case that the Jedi didn't know how to handle people who weren't raised in the Temple on account of almost never having to do it, meaning people like Anakin kind of got the short end of the stick, and it wasn't anyone's fault (finite resources and all that).
For the arrogance thing, that did seem to be something of a common problem, though attachment as used in the rule against it probably doesn't mean the same thing as it does in developmental psychology, and there is space magic involved that changes the way your mind works (the Dark Side really exemplifies this, but there's no reason to assume the Light Side doesn't also have an effect, just a less noticeable one), so the issue doesn't have such a simple cause as that. That was likely part of it, and having superpowers was probably another.
@@samueldimmock694 I think the lack of Jedi turning was because the dark side and the Sith were unknown. They didn’t really know how to tap into it. Anakin only truly fell because of Sideous
@@thecrimsonfire4921 The Dark Side wasn't unknown. The Sith were, but people fell to the Dark Side in times and places where the Sith didn't exist. All you really have to do is use the Force while giving in to your emotions. True, there was a lot less temptation around, since nobody was actively trying to convert them and there wasn't a galactic-scale war going on, and the Dark Side found in the vicinity of Sith Lords is stronger than anywhere else except Dark Side nexus points (of which there were still a few around), but there were still plenty of warzones and atrocities and evil people, meaning Jedi were exposed to Dark Side energies and to scenarios when the Dark Side's promised power boost is tempting.
But I'm not disagreeing that it's easier to resist the Dark Side when you're not living in it all day every day and there isn't a Sith Lord telling you to give in.
I agree. I personally think we aught to have a mix of individual ideals and and collective ideals. Collectively you shouldn’t get in the way of others happiness and freedoms but individually you should be able to pursue your own happiness.
Absolutely the force should not be used to aid your happiness but the fact that the Jedi condemn any attachments is rather misplaced and I think the fact that there haven’t been more Jedi written to have turned to the dark side because of that damning limitation is weird.
I’m unsure of what George Lucas is intending in his story because in real life he has people he’s attracted to, a daughter n’ such. So it’s really a matter of perspective as all good art is, I don’t really wanna know what George Lucas intended because I want myself and everyone to come out of Star Wars with our own interpretations.
@@samueldimmock694 The numbers aren’t accurate reflectors of the nature of the situation though. Most Jedi didn’t fall, but that doesn’t tell us about how many Jedi stayed Jedi. Most Jedi didn’t fall, but that doesn’t tell us that the teachings were effective, if anything it might tell us that there’s no reason for the Jedi to really use or even fall in the first place. They were warrior monks raised by a short old goblin man since being very young, and there wasn’t much of a reason to feel the angst that Anakin did.
Hell, I’m fairly certain you’re wrong. One of Qui-Gon’s students before Obi-Wan had fallen to the Dark Side.
And it is the Jedi’s fault. Their entire way of doing things is denying the emotions that cause harm, even if the way they do it is by attempting to pacify it with tranquility, or cope with it by practicing acceptance. They reject the notion that anger is valid, and that not everything can or should be accepted. Afterall, they can’t accept the Force not being in balance. Which demonstrates that they’re themselves imposing their will onto the Force by imposing their ideas of it onto the galaxy and it’s use. If the Force has a will of its own that manifests itself in the universe, that implies the destruction of the Jedi was the will of the Force, as was the Clone Wars and every atrocity that has ever existed in the galaxy. If that’s the case, why do the Jedi focus so much on consciously “doing the will of the Force”?
Kenobi is a Soresu master because he just lets the force do what it wants with him, even willing to let himself die if he must. He isn’t even attached to himself- and you might be able to argue that it’s the opposite- that he isn’t so much letting them force act through him as rather, it already is. My argument is that the real way the Force acts through beings is by letting people be themselves. The force wants people to be exactly as they are, and might dictate everything that leads up to that point. Their fall might be their destiny, or rather, their inner nature. Rather than there being a grand design, it’s more like reality itself playing out.
The Jedi are fools, in that they believe one should do as the force wills- ignoring the idea that what the individual wants and desires is more likely to be “the will of the force”. That those who might bend the force to their will are actually the most well bound slaves to it.
It’s honestly amazing to watch different you tubers opinions on Star Wars politics. There’s everything from straight up empire supporters, CIS lovers, and Jedi lackeys like what we have here
After watching the cinema therapy video about BPD and researching a bit myself in ways to cope with BPD the jedi code sounds an awful lot like those coping options.
Meditating / Using senses to help yourself through emotional times or panic / anger and the likes.
I think if they would have explained their methods, maybe it may have helped too.
Instead of keeping it a "must" and encourage it as an option for emotional coping rather than something force related.
But then again. Instead of just coping and fighting the symptoms, one should instead focus on preventing the causes.
Like instead of invalidating someone's struggles, the world could begin to listen. Instead of ripping apart bonds to develop a fear of loss, they could encourage healthy bondage.
Or even better, teach people how to handle a problem instead of denying it exists and kicking people out if it does.
The second half of your statement definitely has the right of it, Rai. Stay on that path; the code of the Jedi is absolutely awful for any sentient being-especially one trying to develop an emotionally healthy mindset.
@@FirstNameLastName-tg3rc 100% agreed.
I think this quote from Mace Windu sums up your last couple points nicely... It's a shame more people don't know how Windu was really like and just go by the Canon perception of him.
"Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. We fight for justice because justice is the fundamental bedrock of civilization: an unjust civilization is built upon sand. It does not long survive a storm."
Any chance that penchant for unhealthy attachment sprung in part from the trauma of slavery? It seems to me the tragedy of Anakin is that he was the most powerful slave in the Galaxy, he was born to servitude, his final salvation and freedom manifested in the same moment.
Also by that point the jedi had lost their way and had become extreme so they could not help anakin in a logical and healthy way
That's why the Jedi didn't want Anakin in the Order. They made an exception to let him in, if they followed it to the T he wouldn't have been let in. Qui Gon is actually the one who messed up by insisting Anakin be let in.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi It was the Council's decision regardless of Qui-Gon Jinn's desires.
Given the negatives of training him and letting him loose to be picked up by the Sith and his piloting skills, I think the council should have shuffled him over to the Exploration Corps. Able to keep tabs on him, use his abilities, probably keep him happy.
[By the way, just noticed I'm responding to a lot of your stuff - I'm not stalking you I swear! I think the video just got me really motivated & you're hitting the specific topics I'm liking.]
@@markuhler2664 That is true that the council ultimately went with it but still, if they stuck to their guns nothing bad would have likely happened.
I think Gui-Gon being so forceful and the fact that he died and basically appointed Obi-Wan to the job kind of put them in a tough spot. I mean, how could you say no to the dying wish of a man who only every did his duty to the Jedi and died fighting your ancient enemy? And do you risk Obi-Wan doing it anyway outside the structure of the Jedi? It's a lose-lose situation so maybe you just cut your loses and try to give the best training you can.
But if they still said no, Anakin likely wouldn't have learned to use the Force (unless Obi-Wan really did go with leaving the Order to train him) and would not have been a danger (unless the Sith tracked him down but there is a very strong chance that they would have never found him because the galaxy's a big place).
But even with all that I think the Jedi did everything they could to control Anakin. I was really strict with him and he needed a strict teacher. It really came down to Anakin and how he refused to learn emotional control. You can only do so much teaching and leading by example, it falls to Anakin to actually listen and choose to follow.
[Don't worry, you're good. It's just a coincidence we are in the same threads for some reason. ;-)
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi
There in lies the issue. They tried to “control “ Anakin Skywalker, not help him, not teach him to accept his life or find a deeper relationship with the Jedi Order as a whole, they simply taught him as any other Jedi initiate was taught. Here you have a nine year old boy who has only ever known slavery and he finds out he is a powerful Force-sensitive, add to that he was forced to abandon his mother who was still a slave, go to the Galactic capital planet, be told your “too old to be a Jedi” , that you possess great fear, and then when you finally get to become a member of the Jedi Order, You to be instructed by a Jedi Knight who has barely any knowledge of how to relate to you or sympathize with your emotions or life.
I’m surprised Anakin had as much self control as he did. If I were in his shoes I would have left the Jedi order the moment I was able and never look back.
The Jedi were flawed, their handling of Anakin during Episode one proves as much.
"Why they, on an ideological level, are right." - Yeah, but the problem here is that the Jedi are organics, not perfect beings. And as organics - even the "Jedi are supposed to be better" ones, they still make mistakes.
Solid video. I'm not sure if I agree with your use of Anakin being the voice of reason about "no emotion/peace." The kid twisted a lot of the Code to his own world-vie, and it's arguable that this scene was a teen trying to get into the pants of a girl he liked. The Jedi version.
I DO agree with you about what that line of the Code truly means. I'd argue that there would be some Jedi who didn't use it like that though, and they would instead smack a Padawan/Knight down on any type of attachment even if the younger Jedi was able to feel and then let the emotions go.
If I was to lay blame at the Jedi's feet for the Anakin becomes Vader thing, it would be about HOW they spoke to him. I think an argument could be made that Anakin needed a far more detailed and brutal discussion on where he was likely to end up if he didn't stop himself but got more platitudes and "cookie-cutter" phrases instead. BUT. I fully admit that I also doubt such a conversation would have worked without divine intervention.
In modern terms, Anakin is that party hard, sex hard, drink and drugs hard person who is self-destructing but refuses to see they have an issue. The ones who even interventions don't always help because they don't want to change/help themselves.
"Attached to an unhealthy degree." And that's the big issue. If a Jedi is able to accept loss, there's nothing stopping them from having a loving family (Luke-Mara), but you can't tell until you're in that situation and the Jedi would rather not risk it. But this is still what the attachment mantra is SUPPOSED to be, and I will argue that many Jedi ignore the unhealthy caveat.
Still, a solid video. Nice work.
But even the way the Jedi spoke to Anakin was in the films were pretty blunt. Yoda told him point blank to let go of all he was afraid to lose and I was pretty strict with him. Even with us speaking to him like this he still didn't listen.
And on an unrelated note, can I just say how ironic it is people blame the Jedi either way? They either think the Jedi were too lenient with Anakin and didn't pay attention enough and or they think they were too strict and controlling and that's what led Anakin to the dark side! These fans have no idea how to actually raise a child and blame the Jedi no matter what, you just can't win!
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi I actually want to give Anakin some allowance here, since there's no way he spelt the entire situation out to Yoda during this session.
But regardless, Yoda's reply is a root response without any teaching. A smart teacher would not only explain how the pain and anger of losing someone that close to someone could cause the Jedi to fall into darkness, but also mention how the loved one wouldn't want them to fall. He doesn't. Instead, it's bog-standard Jedi preaching.
We must NOT forget that this is from a kid who had dreams of his mother dying which came true. The Jedi maxim is SO obsessed with the idea of the future being in flux, that they ignore anyone who has proven Sight. Don't get me wrong, Anakin caused his visions of Padme dying in childbirth, but his visions of Shmii should allow his dreams a leeway of "this probably will happen" that is totally ignored.
In essence, Yoda was the worst person to speak to from Anakin's perspective. The alien is all too much about saying what works for the masses rather than the individual. Let alone how dog matted he is.
I have a LOT of problems with the Jedi but it's never about their goals. The people who complain about them with Anakin in both ways at the same time conflate the Jedi as people (individuals making idiotic mistakes) with the Jedi as an Organization (the third-best Force group behind NJO and Je'Daii Order).
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi You can be both too lenient in some ways, and too strict in others. These are not mutually exclusive issues. In the end the order made a lot of mistakes that resulted in little Annie going insane and becoming a family eradicator. Looking from a realistic angle, it makes perfect sense that he ended up screwed up because if you had something like the Jedi order for real it would be a cult and would likely get raided by police 100's of times over for promoting religious violence among other issues.
@@kauske It is probably better to work with crazy Powerful force users then against them
@@KingRogue Or I'll develop a contagious inoculation for midichlorians, and no one will ever use the force again. *YEAH SCIENCE!*
Geetsly's: *Debunks misconceptions about the Jedi Order*
Generation Tech: He can't do that, shoot him or something!
@Zach Watrenwe dont, Darth Baras ate all the cookies :(
@Zach Watren I shit you not, this genuinely does sound like cult-like Propaganda, disturbingly so.
@Zach Watren Jedi propaganda you say? It's almost like the creator of Star Wars wanted them to be the good guys...
@Zach Watren You are right on the propaganda part.
I'd say the one biggest problem is he parrots the like of denying something is the only way of containment instead of training people to handle it. If you want a more in detailed rant, I here it is:
Ok. I'm not sure I agree:
- 1:40 Selfish desired like emotions?
- 2:09 So if destroying the dark was the right decision, how come the Je'daii managed to function perfectly well with using both?
- 2:56 Train someone to deal with a problem and they'll know how to handle it. Don't do that and when they come into contact it they well... won't be trained to handle it.
- 3:10 Recruiting children to become beings trained in armed combat seems to me to be highly child soldiery. And also cult like - mostly because the Jedi actively try to deny their members outside influences.
- 3:21 And that isn't true. There have been exceptions (one being a case involving Mace Windu and another a child where they thought the parent was dead). And an environment where you're constantly told Jedi must go to the order isn't what I call a free and informed decision.
- 3:48 You haven't denied it, you only tried to justify it. And I don't care why it's done - it's wrong regardless.
- 3:52 Like emotions, love, family...? And what you've done here is take the approach of the Jedi. Prevent a problem instead of training people to handle it.
- 4:08 It also denies the Jedi people in their lives who actually care about them.
- 4:20 And I just realised. l The Jedi have no choice if they become one or not.
- 4:40 But it still forbade emotional attachments. As you said "
- 4:59 Oh, so you're saying a secret and forbidden relationship proves your case? What?
- 5:12 Ok, this is getting into intellectual dishonesty - or at minimum cherry picking of evidence. That was a, flirting and b, you ignore that relationship was forbidden.
- 5:34 As long as said emotions went nowhere.
- 6:19 Again, you're parroting Jedi propaganda. You completely fail to understand people can be trained to deal with stuff like that.
- 6:27 Like love, caring... Those bad emotions? And if the Jedi had allowed relationships, Padme could have given birth at the grand republic medical facility and there'd have been no need to go to Palpatine.
- 6:44 I repeat my point of training people to deal with it.
- 6:58 Or people can go the route of a grey Jedi. Or use both sides.
- 7:19. Je'daii.
- 7:27 I repeat my handle the problem thing. You've again, fails to even consider that maybe, just maybe, people can be taught to handle their emotions. And if relationships would were allowed, why do to the dark side? Emotions make us human, denying them make us beasts.
- 7:54 Regardless of why, it's still wrong.
- 8:21 If he was allowed to be married to Padme and could have sought guidance from the council instead of him being chucked out, he wouldn't have felt the need to go to Sidious.
- 8:37 Oh, so now Jedi aren't allowed their own fundamental nature? Are they allowed their own personalities?
- 9:40 Was the relationship perfect? No. But the Jedi rules on attachments still let him to Palpatine.
- 9:53 Oh, so because someone has powers means they don't have a right to their own lives?
- 10:13 Proof? You just made an unproven claim that can't be reasonably be called common knowledge.
- 12:00 But regardless, that the Jedi didn't even try - by themselves or by pressuring the republic says they weren't perfect.
You know what, screw being polite. This is intellectual dishonest, cherry picked, Jedi propaganda. I hope you're proud.
You are literally the kind of fanboy who this video was made for. You miss the point
The Jedi stance is that you SHOULD feel emotion but be able to work through it. As for attachment, they go with the BUDDHIST definition (namely that attachment is "an exaggerated desire to not be separated from someone or something"). Love meanwhile is defined as wanting someone to be happy (which fits Han and Leia) and Compassion is wanting the other person not to suffer (Luke wants to help Vader in large part because he realizes that Vader secretly hates himself and wants to be good again but feels he can never go back.) The later two are unambiguously good and things a Jedi SHOULD have. Han and Leia are an example of a selfless romance working out fine; the problem with Anakin was that his feelings for Padme were selfish. They were based on how HE felt and how HE didn't want to be hurt.
You can say that the Jedi ban on attachment was overly strict and be right; at the same time Selfish attachment can and have led to disaster in the Star Wars universe, and there is no one size fits all solution. Some people might be fine under the selfless love rules....but others might chafe under it and fall anyway.
That's why the Jedi idea was correct.
The Jedi had their flaws and failures for sure, but as a whole, they were always just trying to help and do the right thing when they could. The Clone Wars actually shows the best and worst of the Jedi. We see their very good points, saving many innocents during the war, but also they're bad with some really dumb decisions the whole Ahsoka trail fiasco being a big one.
Also, I know I'm probably gonna annoy some people with this one, but are you sure there is absolutely no possible way to go in-between the light and the darkness?
I can think of at least two examples of Jedi using the Dark Side for good, I mean there are about a 100 more examples of it being used for evil and corrupting the people who use it, but still, there is a small possibility. The first example is Mace being able to use a Form of Lightsaber Form 7, tapping into both his darkness and his opponents and not falling to the Dark Side. And the second example, Luke using Force Choke in Return of the Jedi on the Gamoidian Guards, and I think I heard somewhere in Legends he used the move a few more times, but he always used it to just knock out and incapacitate people, never to kill, so he didn't fall either.
Mace Windu's signature style walked a really thin-line that had a lot of Jedi really leery of it, with even Mace Windu acknowledging its risks. And even then, it didn't directly draw upon the Dark Side itself. As for the Force Choke, for the most part that's just a direct application of telekinesis a fairly general ability of the Force. It was Darth Vader's signature move and so it became associated with the Dark Side strongly. It is also a very ruthless and arguably sadistic use of the Force, so the Jedi would naturally not be inclined towards its use. But it wasn't necessarily done by drawing upon the Dark Side itself.
That said, both in Canon and Legends Luke has had issues with being tempted by the Dark Side and had moments of weakness where he gave in. So perhaps using something like Force Choke might not have been as safe we think.
"The Force has a will, and that is abhorrent to me."
-Kreia
...You do realize that the quote is basically her bitching that the world around her works in ways that transcends her desires, instead of bending to them like the Sith she at that point isn't even pretending to not be?
@@mpnuorva well exactly, that’s what truly makes a sith, they don’t bend to the will of the force, they bend the force to their will. The video games, for most, are people’s entry point into the wider Star Wars universe beyond the movies. For people who don’t understand a fundamental differences like that, it might just convince them somewhat, KotOR is a role playing game afterall where you can turn to the dark side.
She couldn’t have been more narcissistic then.
@@mpnuorva No, she's rightfully complaining that a weird alien superbeing is controlling everyone's lives without their consent. Her goal was to destroy the force, not bend it to her will, how is that even remotely Sith? She would be literally powerless then, she would probably even die.
The Jedi: Seeing a River and building a Mill on its shore tu use its power..
The Sith, Seeing a River, straightening the bed, building damns, and doing everything to exploit it to its maximum potential
Kreia: Bitching that the Water is flowing always in one direction and deciding to destroy the complete River so no one has ever to swim through it again.
I cannot see this video without think in a debate between Generation Tech and you guys
A debate between them actually sounds quite intriguing and entertaining.
I don’t like generation tech for different reasons.
Oh well, still hate him
And if anyone has a problem with my opinion...
Fight me :>
(Not starting a fight, just saying)
@Lokabrenna Welp XD
@Lokabrenna He's unironically a speciest, ignoring that they have the virtues humans
@@kamh64 why do you people hate them?
I don’t think the Jedi way was at fault it was just that the Jedi at the time were not the best. That’s my take on the Jedi.
And you could argue some of the Jedi were not the best because they weren't following the Jedi way *cough cough Mace Windu.*
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi or some fowllo it by the letter like many fans *cought ki adi mundi cought*
@@lilianemachadostigliano1727 he didnt, he had hella wives and was brought into the order at an older age as well. try again
I don't know why that was really impactful to me... However, I'm 34 years old. I spent 5 years in the marines from when I was 17-22 and did 2 tours of Iraq. When you said it was something only the galactic masses had the right to do it hit me so hard. I participated in the Iraq war although i was against it. And it always hurt me everything that happened then and it hurts me even more everything that's happened now. However, our job wasn't to stop everything bad nor could it be. However, by going in initially we caused so much more suffering and pain as well as many common current evils such as ISIS by the mere fact that we tried to make it so.
It's pretty crazy to read about this fiction that was a parallel to life in the past and is still such a parallel to life currently. I wish I could explain this better but the relationship between all this hit me really hard.
The best fiction is one that feels all too real, hopefully it helps you as not many people can share your pain and experience
@@shamrock141 Thanks
I hope you’re able to heal and find peace, friend. I’ve had many friends and mentors that served in the military that share your feelings as well. I’m sure your intentions were noble, and I’m sure you followed your heart and what you knew to be right in most cases. Sometimes that leads to some terrible outcomes, but we should never fault ourselves for trying to do our best and to do what we perceive as right.
That said, I’ve definitely never had to bear a burden nearly as heavy as the one you do, I’m only trying to offer a little bit of reprieve in the only way I know how.
And be sure to talk to your loved ones and people you trust about how you’re feeling. It really is one of the best things you can do, and your loved ones will appreciate you all the more for it.
Hot Star Wars take: People hate the Jedi because they are a imperfect solution to a imperfect universe and don’t want to admit the dark side would turn them evil if they were force users.
Hot Star Wars Take: The Jedi suck because they don’t even know what they’re doing. It’s not just an imperfect solution, it’s the cause of the problems, given these ideas do not hold up to scrutiny at all. Passion, even anger and hate are healthy when focused and utilized properly, and the world has no good or evil in it. The Jedi are idiots and the Sith are insane fools too.
Hot rebuttal: the Jedi are religious zealots whose doctrine never made sense after the original pre-Republic split.
I mean the Jedi’s problem is that they get static thinking they the answer instead of continuing to work and improve the order
The 3 answers to your comment just proved you right. Congrats my man!
For real, the star wars galaxy isn't "slightly dystopian", the VAST majority of it is a fucking nightmare and tbh its a great representation about what a future of capitalism and rampant greed could look like in a system with virtually unlimited frontiers.
The Jedi after hearing theory about them being morally wrong: are we the baddies?
Only a sith deals in absolutes
Both sides are bad there you go lol 😂
Indeed, both are dogmatic and self serving in their doctrine. At least the Sith are direct about it where as the Jedi hide behind a vail of self righteousness. I wouldn’t trust either order with galactic peace.
@@voidtremor6329 Except galactic peace was actually achieved under the Jedi. Under the Sith there was a galactic dictatorship.
@voidtremor While the Jedi may have had a “veil” of self-righteousness, the ppl under their rule experienced Actual peace to one degree or another. Not so in the case of the Sith, as even the highest echelons of Sith society were under the eternal paranoia of constant backstabbing syndrome.
I mean, you can quote Anakin saying he thinks they're encouraged to love, but that's a half truth. They can love in the way deemed acceptable by their terms. What most people include in "love" (such as attachment) is not accepted. Anakin was not exactly unbiased, so he wasn't able or willing to say the full truth.
Jedi do allow people to love each other. Its there job. If they didnt care like everyone says then they would be saving the galaxy every time the people come crying for help.
@@CoolMyron
I’m sorry to say this, truly I am. But saving people and loving people are to different things. You cannot understand what you do not know or have. The Jedi encouraged group thinking, constrictive views about the “Force” itself. To them if you became a practitioner of the Darkside you had to be eliminated or Imprisoned. The Sith were Satanic demons to the eyes of the Jedi. The Sith were ironically enough fulfilling the “Will of the Force” by destroying the Jedi Order.
The Jedi clouded their own vision in the Force, and as far as we know the Jedi post Order 66 gave up on themselves. The religious cult that was Jedi-ism at its core was fundamentally broken ,irrational , emotionally damaging, and morally and ethically more twisted and evil than any Sith had been until Darth Sidious.
The Jedi actively sought out force sensitive individuals to either train (I mean kidnap. For that was the true purpose of the Jedi Acquisition Corps) or imprison them ( deeming non-trained Force sensitive individuals powerful in their raw connection to the Force as dangerous to them if not controlled by the Jedi ) .
Largely the Jedi are a religious cult centered around the Lightside of the Force. The Darkside is thus named that simply because it was practiced in secret or out of range of prying Jedi cultists. The Jedi reject all aspects aligned with the Darkside of the Force and never allowed any member to practice its gifts.
@@makisonoda7925 That's not true at all. The sith didnt just want to kill the jedi. They wanted to have all the power and take over everything. If the force wanted the jedi dead so badly then the sith would have won all the times they lost. Its not about what the Jedi think. The sith are straight-up evil. Simple as that.
The jedi in canon fell because the writers wanted jake skywalker to be a cowardly old baby. And somehow Kylo killed a temple full of Jedi by himself. Even Anakin (with more training) had help. If the jedi's system was so broken then they would not have lasted as long as they did. The sith have always been more evil. Other than 1 or 2 accounts of genocide that the Jedi def regretted but was somewhat justified, the sith has always been worst.
And now i think you are just trolling. Even the most casual of fans know the jedi didnt kidnap people. And they let people leave their order, you are making things up now.
I think you got the words jedi and sith mixed up.
@@makisonoda7925 Dude, you just literally commented every single point this video already debunked, i mean, what was the poin of this?
@@makisonoda7925 It seems you didn't get it clear enough by watching the video, so i'll explain, again.
The Sith CANNOT enforce the "Will of the Force" because the usage of the Dark Side is a perversion of the Force itself, something unnatural, that disturbs the Force itself. The jedi didn't kidnap force sensitive individuals, as the video already states. The parents were asked for permission and could give it (or not), because in the larger portion of the galaxy, being "chosen" to become a jedi was regarded as a great honor.
And, last but not least. The jedi OBVIOUSLY prohibited the "gifts" of the dark side because, really, there were no gifts it could give that the light side couldn't, and the price was way higher.
A big thing I see is people blaming the Jedi for the evil actions of the Sith. It’s interesting that Sith propaganda works even on people in the real world because that result is exactly what the Sith wanted in the galaxy.
There's alot of contrarians in the star wars community.
Sidious was right about one thing, the jedi had become dogmatic. Complacent within the trappings of their traditions rather than the purpose of those traditions. In attack of the clones when Yoda says how arrogance has become a common problem among the jedi I always took that as George Lucas speaking directly to the audience. The order was already in a state of decline before the clone wars. Not just in numbers but, in my opinion, their connection to the force.
Ofc Sidious would say something like that, given the fact that he was a Sith who truly didn't care about anyone or anything short of possessing unrestrained power. Sidious prided himself on having his way no matter who it hurt, so it stands to reason that he would find the Jedi concept of restraining ones own desires for the good of other ppl repugnant.
I agree with you 100%! Too many times people try to blame the Jedi for issues that were not theirs, or try to make them the scapegoat because they don't understand how the order really worked.
Not so sure on the Emotion part tbh.
Yes the Jedi accepted there were emotions but just told you to meditate them away. Meditation helps to get rid of the Symptoms but not the core problem in every case. If the Jedi were thaught to be more open about their feelings there would have been more discussions and ways for troubled jedi to figur their problems out.
Two examples.
Annakins love for Padme: Yes the Relationship got realy realy creepy but the biggest problem was that Annakin could only turn to Palpatin who as we all know did not had Annikins best intrest in mind. If Annakin would have been allowed to love and have a relation he would most likely have turned to Obi and Yoda for advice and both of them could have told him:"Dude you are acting like a dick if you keep that up she might hate you for it" sometimes it just takes a good frind to tell you that you are wrong.
Annakin spying on Palpatine: Yeah the Jedi didn´t get that asking someone to spy on his best friend could turn things south ultra fast. I mean imagine your boss gets to you and asks you to spy on your best friend because your boss doesn´t trust him. If the Jedi would have grapsed the concept of friendship they would have known that putting annakin together with Palpatine with the mission to spy on him is a dick move. Instead they could have relazied that Palpatine means a lot to annakin told him they have some suspissicions and they want him to stay away from him for some time while they investigate spin it like they want the best for both of them but realizing that if Palp is an sith this could compromise Annakin heavily.
All over all the Jedi were not super incompetend but they also were far from good and the 1000 years they did great was mostly because the sith were keeping quiet
The Jedi solution to any emotion was to either meditate or ignore it and hope it goes away. And of course the Jedi couldn't grasp the concept of Anakin and Palpatine's friendship. These are the same people who flat out scolded him for missing his mother when he was a little kid. He's 10 years old, wtf do you expect? It would have been easy enough for them to buy her freedom from Watto and set her up in an apartment on Coruscant. Anakin could have visited her from time to time and wouldn't have had to worry about her, he never would have killed those Tuskens, and he could have had someone to talk to about his relationship with Padme.
Sometimes I think the biggest problem with the Jedi Code is the wording. Would it not be harder for the fans to get wrong if it was written thusly?
"Act not from emotion, but from peace"
"Act not from ignorance, but from knowledge"
"Act not with passion, but with serenity"
"Where there is chaos, bring harmony"
"In life and death, there is the Force"
There's a fantastic video about Kreia's philosophy floating around which points out that the Code truly makes sense when you add "When" at the start: "When there is no emotion, there is peace" etc. The point being that the Code originally was about the impossible striving for the peace, knowledge, serenity, harmony, and acceptance of death while accepting the first stuff (emotion, ignorance, passion, chaos, life) must be worked through on a constant basis, but after some time, the Order cut the "When" off, and became more dogmatic in its attitude.
While I mostly agree with your reasoning, I'm not willing to give the Jedi a total pass. While it's absolutely true that rules like the ban on attachments were there for a very good reason, the way those rules were enforced was inflexible and, in the end, harmful. It's all very well to tell your super powered warriors "You must not have attachments", but inevitably that rule _will_ be broken. And when it was, the Jedi who broke it had no experience or emotional tools to help them deal with their attachments in a healthy way. When Anakin came to Yoda for help over his fear that his mother was going to die, Yoda told him (paraphrased) "Eh, just don't worry about it." When Yula Braylon had a child, she kept it secret, brought him into the Jedi order, and covered up his crimes, all because she was afraid of what the council would do if they found out.
Forbidding attachment is like forbidding addiction; it doesn't prevent it from happening, it just cuts people off from the help that they need. If Anakin had been able to tell the Jedi "Look, I'm having dreams that my wife will die in childbirth", then Padme could have been brought to the Temple for 24/7 healthcare, and he wouldn't have been driven to desperation to save her. If he'd been able to be open about his relationship, they could've got some marriage counselling - or their romance could have run its course, they get divorced, and carried on. By denying it and keeping it secret, it created the exact unhealthy relationship that they were trying to avoid.
And of course it's true that the Jedi alone could not have wiped slavery out across the galaxy, but they could definitely have done a lot more than they did. They had enormous political influence and power that they could have wielded to push the Republic to actually enforce their anti-slavery laws. They could have told corporations that any corporation that employed slavery would not receive protection or contracts from the Jedi. We're kind of running into the "Perfect Solution" fallacy - the idea that Jedi couldn't wipe out slavery, so it's okay that they didn't do enough about it.
Personally, I blame Yoda for most of this. His god complex meant that he tried to turn ALL Jedi into reflections of himself, and they lost their ability to truly serve the will of the Force. They became rigid, stuck to the narrow handful of ways Yoda would allow them to behave, and lost the flexibility they would need to respond to the Sith.
I totally understand and agree with you. The Jedi weren’t perfect, but they also didn’t do as much as they could have. I admit I am biased against the Jedi Order, I think its a religious cult that adheres to a strict black and white dogmatic viewpoint. Doesn’t mean I hat all Jedi just hat the organization called the Jedi Order.
I do think you have to keep in mind that Anakin was a special case because he was older than when most children were brought in which led to the downfall
The rules should have been inflexible. They were beings who possessed the power to do a lot of damage if they weren't restrained. No one should have been above the rules, not even the Chosen One. In fact, the Chosen One should've been the one who most exemplified the logic behind those rules.
1000% agree. As a Fellow Jedi Stan I’m sick of seeing misinformation spread about them. Thanks for making this, I wouldn’t change a single word of it.
Here here!
@@taekfute The feeling is shared
A few other things I'd like to add:
-Being a Jedi is entirely your choice. If you wanted to get married or disagree with a Jedi rule, you are fee to leave.
-Jedi don't have anything against families and a big reason why they don't let Jedi have family is because they know families require responsibility. But a Jedi needs to prioritize the lives of all people over the lives of people closest to them. So the Jedi banned having families so Jedi would never be faced with a morally impossible choice. And as said above, if a Jedi really did want to get married they could if they left because now they don't have split loyalties.
-A big reason why I think the Jedi didn't go crusading to other parts of the galaxy to end slavery and other misdeeds is because it's outside of the Republic and you cannot go to different lands and impose your morals onto them. That is such an imperialistic way of thinking. Even if you are right, you can't just strong arm other people into following your rules.
Think of it this way, did the United States march into Saudi Arabia and demand that they let women drive? Would it be right to do so even thought Saudi Arabia does have sexist rules? Of course not, America does not have that right, just like Saudi Arabia does not have the right to march into America and change the rules because in thier eyes, letting women drive is just as wrong as American think not letting them drive is. You simply cannot force other people to follow your rules.
'You're free to leave" Until they decide you are a darkside threat and go after you. The Jedi literally started a war to crush a separatist movement that did not want to be part of the galactic republic anymore. Instead of just letting them go, they started a war on a scale that would be unimaginable. Why is that OK but pushing a planet to end slavery which is also against republic laws is not?
@@kauske I don't think you understood what I was saying. When I said you could leave, I was referring to Jedi leaving the Order, not political secession. In fact, the entire reason the CIS threat even occurred was because the Jedi let Count Dooku leave the Order no questions asked.
I also hope you realize that the Jedi only declared war when the CIS literally did became a Dark Side threat where Count Dooku was revealed to be a Sith Lord who attempted to execute 2 Jedi and a Republic Senator. Those are grounds for war and the Jedi did not start it, the CIS did with multiple assassination attempts and building an army.
And this again goes into jurisdiction. The Separatists were formerly Republic territories which illegally left the Republic. The Jedi waging war against them was no different than the Union waging war against the Confederacy in the American Civil was.
What you are proposing in your war to end slavery would amount to the Jedi invading non-Republic planets to force them to end slavery, that would be like America invading Brazil to ends slavery. So as I hope you can see, the Jedi waging war against a body that is illegally seceding is entirely different than going into other lands that are not part of your government and forcing them to do something.
The two situation are not comparable, not to mention that if slavery ever popped up in the Republic, the Jedi would immediately be deployed to end it. Like that was part of the reason war was declared, because the CIS allowed slavery and the Jedi were not going to let a former Republic territories devolve into slavery.
The jedi are prone to fanaticism and paranoia, which is explored more in legends. Like how the padawan massacre on Dantooine was the result of jedi fanatics trying to prevent a prophesy which said a padawan was going to grow up to destroy the jedi order. Not to mention wiping out any force tradition regardless of force alignment, just because it differs from the jedi code. Like the Jensaarai for instance, or that time a jedi discovered a race of sentient force sensitive crystals and the jedi forbid them from being trained as jedi.
@@kauske actually Palpatine declared war because he refused to let the Separatists leave
@@ninjaked1265 The whole senate backed him on that, and even gave him emergency powers. The Jedi went and commissioned a clone army on their own anyhow, even if it was hijacked by palps.
The Jedi also willingly took the republic's side in the war, and went to battle to prevent the Separatists from succeeding. Blame where blame is due.
the reason why attachments are forbidden is that in a moment of pain or desperation a Jedi would turn to whatever means and an example of this would be saving someone's life like what happened to Anakin. He wanted to save Padme and when he saw that the Jedi Order and the Light Side of the Force could not help him, he turned to the Dark Side, as long as Padme was safe, he would do horrific crimes (attack on the jedi temple, destruction of younglings so no new generation of jedi could happen). If Anakin had no attachment to Padme he would see her death as the will of the Force. Remember, in the Jedi code there is no death, there is the Force.
Sure, let's COMPLETELY forget the context of Anakin's downfall to make an idiotic post supporting the Jedi and their egotistical take that ALL emotions are evil and should be avoided at all costs
@@jeremyallen5974 the Jedi have emotions. they do love and care about people but they do not let strong emotions control them.
@@reallybigmistake They didn't LOVE, much less CARE FOR anyone during the prequels
There's a very fine line between stoicism and psychopathy, you know.
@@jeremyallen5974 the Jedi did care for each other, you had bonds between master and padawn close to parents and children.
The Jedi didn't form attachment because if they did then they would use the force in any way to justify their means like Anakin turning to the dark side to try and save Padme since the Jedi would never support him.
@@reallybigmistake I figgered you'd find a way to blame Anakin for THEIR mistakes
Honestly, I see the jedi code as theoretical solution to universe that is morally gray most of the time. It's the complete devotion to either side that is blinding. There are just some things that the force can't guide the jedi with.
Binary morality does not make a smart one. It's honestly smarter to think in a bimodal fashion, considering the galaxy's default state.
True.
This isn't the kind of metaphysics you should be seeing in a film series about space wizards with laser swords aimed at children. This metaphysic is GRIMDARK.
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE
Anakin certainly had his laser sword aimed at children in Episode III. Seems pretty dark to me.
Ok. I'm not sure I agree:
- 1:40 Selfish desired like emotions?
- 2:09 So if destroying the dark was the right decision, how come the Je'daii managed to function perfectly well with using both?
- 2:56 Train someone to deal with a problem and they'll know how to handle it. Don't do that and when they come into contact it they well... won't be trained to handle it.
- 3:10 Recruiting children to become beings trained in armed combat seems to me to be highly child soldiery. And also cult like - mostly because the Jedi actively try to deny their members outside influences.
- 3:21 And that isn't true. There have been exceptions (one being a case involving Mace Windu and another a child where they thought the parent was dead). And an environment where you're constantly told Jedi must go to the order isn't what I call a free and informed decision.
- 3:48 You haven't denied it, you only tried to justify it. And I don't care why it's done - it's wrong regardless.
- 3:52 Like emotions, love, family...? And what you've done here is take the approach of the Jedi. Prevent a problem instead of training people to handle it.
- 4:08 It also denies the Jedi people in their lives who actually care about them.
- 4:20 And I just realised. l The Jedi have no choice if they become one or not.
- 4:40 But it still forbade emotional attachments. As you said "
- 4:59 Oh, so you're saying a secret and forbidden relationship proves your case? What?
- 5:12 Ok, this is getting into intellectual dishonesty - or at minimum cherry picking of evidence. That was a, flirting and b, you ignore that relationship was forbidden.
- 5:34 As long as said emotions went nowhere.
- 6:19 Again, you're parroting Jedi propaganda. You completely fail to understand people can be trained to deal with stuff like that.
- 6:27 Like love, caring... Those bad emotions? And if the Jedi had allowed relationships, Padme could have given birth at the grand republic medical facility and there'd have been no need to go to Palpatine.
- 6:44 I repeat my point of training people to deal with it.
- 6:58 Or people can go the route of a grey Jedi. Or use both sides.
- 7:19. Je'daii.
- 7:27 I repeat my handle the problem thing. You've again, fails to even consider that maybe, just maybe, people can be taught to handle their emotions. And if relationships would were allowed, why do to the dark side? Emotions make us human, denying them make us beasts.
- 7:54 Regardless of why, it's still wrong.
- 8:21 If he was allowed to be married to Padme and could have sought guidance from the council instead of him being chucked out, he wouldn't have felt the need to go to Sidious.
- 8:37 Oh, so now Jedi aren't allowed their own fundamental nature? Are they allowed their own personalities?
- 9:40 Was the relationship perfect? No. But the Jedi rules on attachments still let him to Palpatine.
- 9:53 Oh, so because someone has powers means they don't have a right to their own lives?
- 10:13 Proof? You just made an unproven claim that can't be reasonably be called common knowledge.
- 12:00 But regardless, that the Jedi didn't even try - by themselves or by pressuring the republic says they weren't perfect.
You know what, screw being polite. This is intellectual dishonest, cherry picked, Jedi propaganda. I hope you're proud.
100,000% agreed...
One thing I had always thought when it came to the different Jedi orders when people compare them they always say how Luke’s Jedi order was about as perfect as one can be because he did away with what he felt was rules that were wrong like Jedi forming attachments and marrying yet his order had it’s own Jedi who turned Sith like Jace Solo aka what Kylo Ren should’ve been
I also think there is disagreement about the force and how to act in spite of it...
What is actually the best way to deal with the dark side...?
Are there alternatives?
What are those alternatives?
Is any of it worth the effort?
Is doing so even legitimate?
I'd argue take a leaf from the Je'daii book - use and learn both light or dark. That way you teach people how to use both and won't become fanatical towards either side.
@@FirstNameLastName-tg3rc Well, aparantly all that stuff is out the window, and the force is now just black or white, which is boring AF IMO.
@@kauske - ehh, I’m not sure if that is “official cannon” or what but I’d be inclined to agree with that interpretation...
@@FirstNameLastName-tg3rc - probably add some serious therapy training to deal with troubled members rather than relying on prevention alone. Aside from acknowledging that the code destroys human nature and some just can’t be a self denying monk... and at the least foster alternatives to lessen the chance of fanaticism... along with controlling passion rather than detaching from it... ala Jolee Bindo etc
@@watch50er Apart from that I'd call the Jedi's approach denying a problem exists/banning it, good points. (Edit). As to the Je'daii being canon, I believe they were canon, then legends, then were put back into the canon.
"If you are to truly understand then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single idea. It is to surrender yourself - to make yourself a slave to a teaching or a belief - that makes it so belief will always rule you. To believe in an idea is to be willing to betray it." --Kreia, KotOR II
Honestly, a lot of issues in the Jedi Order would probably be resolved if they had dedicated therapists and a safe place to discuss their worries without fear of being judged or excommunicated.
Therapy in the Star Wars universe would fix so much.
@@animekitty4218 that is so true! Why aren't there any therapist in the Star Wars Universe?
That seems redundant as most of the most effective forms of therapy are based off of things like Buddhism or Stoicism. You know the things that are the primary real world inspiration for the Jedi?
"Not to be driven this way and that, but always to behave with justice and see things as they are." - Marcus Aurelius
@@myself2noone I'd rather have a theapist, not a cultist help me, please and thank you.
@@myself2noone Anakin's options were to go and get therapy from his boss. (Yoda) And you never go and confess to your boss anything they can (and usually will) use against you. There was no way he could be honest with Yoda. It was either quit the Jedi and be tossed out on his ass with no support or place to go (they pretty much gave Ahsoka little more than an "AMFYOYO" for support), and abandon people who needed him for the war effort...or shrug and go "oh well, will of the Force" when it came to watching his wife (and kids) die in a painful, prolonged, violent death. It was a no-win from the start, and Palpy merrily took advantage.
Yeah I think people forget that the slavery bit is thousands of Jedi versus hundreds of trillions of sentients within a Republic inside a galaxy that endorses slavery. Even with fancy space magic and super awesome light swords, the numbers are against you if you even THINK about trying to go on a galactic wide crusade to free the slaves.
Also don't forget about Hutt Space. Those fuckers love big game hunting.
@Geetsly's : *mentions not all jedi were aight*
Me: *glares at Pong Krell*
so, they're are allowed to promote friendship and love, and yet, they are not allowed to have a romantic relationship regardless of if it's a healthy one or not by the times of the clone wars? I don't know, and even using Anakin as an example, Anakin wasn't the only one at fault for falling to the Darkside being of the Jedi are equally at fault for not properly giving him that support that he'd needed.
Strictly speaking, the Jedi don't forbid romantic relationships. And the two key issues are that it can prompt a Jedi to place the needs and desires of the one they love over the needs of everyone else. And that relationships can lead to unhealthy attachments, selfish love, as was the case with Anakin.
I think you overlook in this video the influence of the Sith in tipping the balance of the Force in preventing the Jedi from identifying the issues they faced.
The problem with the Jedi as we know them in the last thousand years of the timeline is the same problem with the Republic during this period: the Ruusan Reformation. For 400 years the Jedi led the government during war time as chancellors, and prior to the Ruusan reformation the Jedi were an independent organization with a privately-funded military that saved the Republic from near-complete collapse. When the final war was won they willingly returned control of the government back to the civilian populace - as Palpatine was supposed to do but did not. But that was not enough for the politicians, who feared (or said they did as a means of getting the upper hand) an independent and very popular group of people outside their control who had their own military and private financial backing. The Jedi were depleted and exhausted from the war and came home victorious to a list of ultimatums if they wanted to remain a part of the republic they just saved. They had to:
1. Give up their military
2. Exist as a part of the government and submit to direct supervision by the chancellor and judiciary
3. No longer wear armor
4. Train children from birth, with an age limit (to prevent a Sith resurgence)
5. Centralize padawan training on Coruscant (to avoid unsupervised students getting access to forbidden knowledge)
They basically gave in to the fear of others and placated the Republic by making themselves small. In conjunction with the changes made to the senate at this time, these reformations shackled the order and left them powerless and exposed with the door wide open for the Sith to corrupt from within. These reformations only make sense in a utopian world where the government is pure of heart and war doesn't exist. Since that is definitely not the world of Star Wars, these reformations were practically a Sith wish list, and I'm sure the anticipatory irony of the Jedi signing their own death warrant warmed and sustained their cold little Sith hearts while they poisoned and planned.
Passion itself isn't a bad thing. The Jedi are terrified of strong emotions, whether they're good or bad. But instead of training people to deal with emotions in healthy ways, they tell them to meditate and/or ignore the problem and hope it goes away. When Anakin is having nightmares about his mother, instead of talking to him about it or suggesting they go check Tatooine out, Obi Wan just tells him to ignore his dreams because they'll go away in time. And on top of that, he's assigned as Padme's body guard, even though he's _clearly_ obsessed with her. If a person is cut off from the outside world, raised to bury their emotions, and told that half the emotions they experience are bad and wrong, eventually that's going to cause problems.
Meditation is a good way to deal with stress. The jedi order and its code is fine. The people who run it either follow it way to strictly or not at all.
@@CoolMyron Yes meditation is is a healthy way to relieve stress. But that not the major problem. The handling of Anakin shows a morally reprehensible view of the Jedi are as a whole based on the ruling of the Jedi High Council who sets the standards of the Order.
@@makisonoda7925 Anakin broke the rules and failed to choose between his wife and the order. Its his fault. The council's treatment also played a factor but that's due to what the jedi of that era had become, not the Order in its self.
If Anakin had chosen between the order and his wife like Obi Wan did with his lover then things would have been fine. He tried to have both and instead lost them both.
@@CoolMyron And why should Anakin or Obi Wan *have* to choose between their loved ones and the Order? Just because something is a rule doesn’t mean it’s a good, logical, or well-thought-out rule.
If they were never made to choose in the first place, what do you think might have happened? Me, personally, I’d argue Darth Vader would’ve never even existed-and there’d be a lot less Jedi becoming monsters in the absence of the most basic tenets of a sentient being’s heirarchy of needs.
@@Sanguivore Anakin has to choose because he can't handle it. If he could handle the stress of lying to the order and hiding his wife then he would not have fallen. I would assume Obi-Wan realized this, that's why he left. The rules of the order were thought out. The reason Anakin fell was that he didn't follow the rules that worked for 1k+ years now. But the Jedi council did make mistakes too. Like taking their code way too literally and being too close to Republic politics. It's sad that Anakin couldn't come to the council for help. They would have just kicked him out. They should have been more open.
I believe Jedi can love and get married as long as they don't let their attachments (wife, kids, and friends) get in the way of their duty. If you can't handle that, then you can leave. This is Anakin's problem. Nothing wrong with it, but its just not what a jedi should do. He puts the life of his wife above everything else. He would let the world burn before he let Padma die.
I believe the system is fine, it was the people running it that fell apart. Its both Anakin's fault for lying to everyone and being selfish, and it's the Council's fault for taking the rules so literally and being in Republic politics.
At 5:17 you say the Jedi didn't discourage emotion in a general sense, and cite Anakin saying that compassion being central to a Jedi's life as support for that. I can see this interpretation, but I think Yoda and Anakin's sessions regarding Anakin's visions of the future show us that it was a bit more complicated than that in practice. Yoda tells him to train himself to let go of everything he fears to lose, failing to acknowledge that Anakin's similar visions in the past had proven to be more reliable than those of other Jedi. And failing to sense the turmoil his advice had seeded in Anakin. Yoda himself had succumbed to the Jedi philosophy of bottling one's negative emotions so completely that he had to be shown his error by the force priestesses before he would acknowledge his own fear created by the war and the threat of the Sith. We can't talk about the failings of the prequel era Jedi order without talking about those of Yoda. Centuries of peace and dogma had blinded him and warped his perception. Leaving him, and his order, misguided and oblivious to the decay that had taken them. As an order, they had become the private military of the senate, waging a war over the desires of millions of systems to break free from exploitation by the core, caught up in politics. Meanwhile the individual Jedi under Yoda's leadership became disillusioned, battle weary, broken physically and emotionally by the war. Yoda failed to acknowledge any of it. He didn't see the mental health of his order decaying before his very eyes because even if in theory he understood his Jedi had emotions, in practice he didn't tend them or teach his Jedi how to tend them for themselves in the face of such hardship. The millennia of peace had made them monastic and dogmatic and wholly unprepared for the rise of the order of the Sith Lords.
you must be watching a different series. there were masters whose purpose were to help people with their emotions.
You are basing this on the assumption that Yoda was telling Anakin to disregard his emotions, which he was not. The point Yoda was trying to make was that even if Anakin's loved ones die, they're never truly gone because they become part of the Force. Yoda tried to warn Anakin not to allow fear to drive his decisions. And because he didn't listen, Anakin ended up choking his own wife and became the reason she died.
This is absolving the Jedi Council of far too much blame for Anakin's fall. Sure, you could argue that Anakin's attachment to others was unhealthy, but the Jedi did not help it much either. Instead of teaching Anakin _how_ to handle loss, they simply told him to "let go" of everything, which no reasonable person with an attachment problem can do. Additionally, the reason why Anakin's paranoia about attachment became such an issue in the first place goes back to his separation from his mother, which the Jedi did little to help alleviate. Sure, Obi-Wan would be a good master and father-like figure, but Anakin was separated from his mother after getting to know her, which would cause any child some form of trauma early on in life.
In the end, the problem with the Jedi wasn't necessarily the code, but their _overly strict adherence to it._ In the end, they clung too tightly to the code to the point that the lost sight of of what mattered more: their trust in the force and the need to treat all Jedi as individual entities in the force, with their own, specific needs.
If that meant going out and freeing Anakin's mother to help cope with the attachment problem, then they should have done so. Anakin's fall was not just on himself, but the failing of his masters to help him with his attachment problem outside of a few words.
I never liked the idea that anger and fear are considered negative emotions. They are not. They are vital and they are important, they exist for a reason. Without fear there is no caution, without anger there is no incentive for justice. If your life is in danger, and you simply don’t feel the emotion of fear, you’re not at peace, you’re defective. You don’t have the mechanism that allows for threat assessment. Caution, restraint, avoidance are all facets of fear. Without fear, none of those exist either. Anger is important for both self preservation and social cohesion. If you can be wronged and feel nothing but tranquility, you are not at peace, you are a doormat and don’t have the capacity to fight for others. If one can step on you, how can you stop them from doing it to others? Anger for the sake of others Is incredibly important. When I see injustice, I feel fury. Those are human beings not being treated as such. That is wrong, and if we all felt no anger at such actions then none would be taken to v correct them.
In the case of both anger and fear, avoiding them is not only impossible but entirely foolish, dismissing them or ignoring them outright is just as bad. Healthy anger and fear management are meant to ensure you can focus on more than just that emotion, and you can compartmentalize and prioritize them. Never allowing them to control you entirely, but never letting their purpose escape your perception either.
It's not about not feeling anger or fear. It's about not making decisions out of anger and fear.
Obi-wan had an "attachment" as well, but his was not "unhealthy". He let the "force" over-ride what his heart seemed to have wanted.
Thank you. This recent shift in less-than-stellar view of the Jedi bothered me a bit in the similar way how fans as a whole reacted to the prequels. It's a weird situation where I see the fans' criticism but something in my brain said they're wrong.
It's annoying that fans seem to struggle with nuance. The idea that the Jedi order was a good but flawed organisation doesn't seem to gel; it's either "Jedi were perfect" or "Jedi and Sith were both evil".
I feel the exact same way. Rather than reject the notion of a strict moral dichotomy of “good vs evil” and understanding that there is nuance to life, a lot of people have basically just reversed the dichotomy. Leading to such flawed statements as “The CIS are the real good guys” which is far from accurate.
The Jedi literally committed genocide in legends. They aren’t perfect.
That sentiment was always there but it was really galvanized by the Last Jedi when Luke gave some serious straw man arguments about the Jedi and was never really contradicted on them in the film.
Like the lines "The Legacy of the Jedi is failure", "The Jedi were at the height of thier power when Sidious took over" and "A Jedi was responsible for training Darth Vader" are flat-out lies but they are presented as truths to fit Rian Johnson's themes of failure. Luke is beyond an unreliable narrator in that film, but unfortunately, there the "unreliable audience" believes him.
This leads to a huge portion of the audience not actually thinking critically because they blindly believe what Luke is saying even though his words are contradicted by what actually happened in the previous films. It's honesty a big reason why I dislike the Last Jedi.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi This is one of the reasons I'm enjoying the High Republic stories. Those actually _are_ about the Jedi at the height of their power, and showing them in a very positive light.
I think what made Anakin creepy was the terrible portrayal by the actor in the prequels, sure some of the stuff he said was creepy like “everything is soft and smooth” but the actor didn’t seem like he wasn’t trying and was stiff in his portrayal (until #3) and it made him seem far more creepy then he actually was so I wouldn’t say Anakin was creepy but the way he was portrayed by the actor made him seem really creepy.
This is interesting, however my primary argument is that a lot of the evidence being presented comes from the Biased perspective of Anakin Skywalker, who George Lucas made clear was biased about his perceptions due to not having been raised by the Jedi.
Ontop of that, Clone Wars and much more legends material made clear that the Jedi fell to the darkness because they didn't temper their strict adherence to the code with balance. If the history of the Jedi shows anything, it's the balance that masters like Qui Gon, and even Obi-wan manager to some degree.
I think the most flawed argument is the hyper focusing on the positive aspects of the Jedi, you can't go showing that the Jedi are good without at least acknowledging the problems. Certainly some Jedi managed to adhere to the code flawlessly.
But Barriss Offee fell to the Darkside because of an over zealous adherence to the Jedi code. On the flip side of course her master Luminara successfully adhered to the code.
But the Jedi who worked best were the ones who found balance, a narrow few, not the majority of Jedi who fell on the left or the right of the spectrum, either adhering too strictly to the code, or not adhering strictly enough and falling to the Darkside (which is the entire point of KOTOR and it's sequel).
In the end neither the Jedi or the Sith were right, and neither were they wrong. They just didn't have the full picture and both sides suffered for it. With the sith of course being the extreme opposite problem of the Jedi, too much lack of discipline vs the Jedis over abundance of it.
Which led to neither being a good fit for the galaxy because it's not good to have super powerful being either hell bent on destruction or overly repressed and dealing with a lot of issues (I'll let you decide which are Jedi and which are sith in that metaphor)
This has gone on way longer than I intended as a counter point to the Jedi were good. Especially given that I'm just as likely to argue why the sith are evil to someone who suggests they're good, or argue the Jedi are good to someone who argues their evil.
I just like taking the opposite point of view.
eh I agree with what you have said there
For all their faults, I never lost faith in the Jedi like Luke did. If anything, knowing they could mess up makes them all the better in my eyes.
Despite all their faults they still stand for peace and justice and the only ones actively trying to save the galaxy. I could never accept that version Luke mindset they paid for their mistakes but it doesn’t mean their way of life isn’t wrong Luke proved them right in episode 6 the Jedi order need to improve.
Thank you. This is exactly why the concept of the Grey Jedi is so stupid and usually only present in ignorant fan discussions, where people love to be both contrarian and "centrist" in everything.
Just be a Jedi if you want to control your emotions and do good for others. The real issue is if the Jedi forfeit their values to fight in a war that caused darkness to descend on them and the galaxy. This doesn't mean the Jedi themselves are bad. There are arguments that can be made if the Jedi are always meant to fail at some point, but that's different than saying the Jedi are inherently bad in their ideology.
People just want a one-or-the-other approach with everything, even their entertainment, ffs. People are so lazy.
I can only think of two and i know the one I'm going to mention will get some trouble if anyone reads it but hey. Starkiller and Luke Skywalker. Luke skywalker showed a few times that he was more than willing to use the dark side of the force, like when he murdered the two gamorian guards in jaba's palace, and starkiller who never was really corrupted by the darkside and seems to always be quite stressed and questioning of what ue was doing during his missions
And yet Lukes order in legends was able to have families, get married, form attachments etc and were fine so that makes a lot of the arguments that the Jedi were right in doing what they did actually false
Luke's order in Legends had more than one incident where atrocities were committed by his students that fell to the Dark Side.
@@dungeonguy88 And that's in less than a century.
Thank you for not making another “Anakin wouldn’t have fallen if Super Qui-Gon lived” video.
He fell because he was an emotional wreck and refused to accept his flaws and improve. Qui-Gon wouldn't have magically changed his personality.
@Lokabrenna I've said it before, but you don't even need anything but TPM to show Jinn as the ass he is.
Multiple times he shouts down Obi-Wan's feelings/opinions, and the only time he praises his Padawan is after Obi-Wan apologizes for thinking differently. He then tells the Council (with Obi-Wan right there) that he's taking on this kid as a Padawan and no one can stop him. Obi-Wan being "ready for his trials" was only said once he was challenged on the decision and fact you can't have more than one Padawan. And then his dying breath is to demand Obi-Wan to train the kid he was going to abandon Obi-Wan for.
@@morlath4767 anakin would’ve fallen earlier if qui gonn was his master
@@spideysg1163 yet qui gon was at will with the force and the entire jedi order wasnt? what was it the will of the force said had to be done the jedi had to be destroyed as they were because they had fallen from the path. so no the jedi did not get it righ.
@@spideysg1163 Absolutely agree. Jinn had the philosophy of "the Force wills it" to explain not only when/why things happened, but also to allow him to do things (The Force led him to Anakin so OBVIOUSLY it's okay to cheat the chance die to win Anakin's slave contract). This philosophy could easily be twisted by Anakin into excusing everything he does. After all, he's the Chosen One.
In a prequel book, Yoda formally acknowledged a slave planet's government to get what he wanted.
Everyone has to work with moral compromised governments, it's part of living in a world where different people have different morals. Churchill worked with Stalin in WWII. The United States currently works with dictators. That's reality. Because you can't impose your morals on other people.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi Except some morals are objectively better than others. Like ones involving human rights or democracy.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi We never see the Jedi push back on slavery, or really corruption either (that I know of - which is limited). Acknowledge it maybe but that's all. Why not see something like this after a battle:
Planet leaders "Oh thank you Jedi Master for saving the free peoples of planet X!"
Jedi Master "Oh really? & what about the slaves on this planet? Are they thankful? Or have you finally gotten rid of that disgusting practice? I hope so because next time I might not hear your distress call."
@@FirstNameLastName-tg3rc Yeah I know, but the fact is your government (regardless of where you live) is making deals with undemocratic dictatorships right now.
My point is that regardless of other nations having lesser morals, you are not allowed to impose your own morals onto them and part of living in reality requires that you still work with them.
@@markuhler2664 Slavery was outlawed in the Republic. Jedi were rarely if ever called to non-Republic planets that might have had slavery so I don't think the scenario you proposed at the end of you comment would ever happen.
In the films, it seems very likely that the Jedi helped abolish slavery and in the Clone Wars, it's even explicitly stated that the Jedi broke the Zygarian Slave Empire.
Justify it all you want they still use tactics directly from the cult guide book.
Thank you for that Jedi Paxam gathering pic from Legends. I think many Legends Jedi embody this video. "cough" Kyp Durron "cough"
At least Kyp learned a lot of things even during the Yuuzhan Vong War. That kid deserved redemption for a good reason.
Also, "Praxeum."
Reminder that the Sun Crusher is more stupid than Starkiller Base
This was refreshing. Lots of people judge the Jedi as if they were normal people living in modern day earth society. And a lot of people just dislike the very concept of any religion and feel entitled to hate on it as a matter of course (especially if it’s fictional.) Further, others use the fallacy of attacking someone for doing an imperfect job, as if their accomplishments cannot matter unless total success is achieved. Any organization that is large enough and lasts long enough will have members that betray their ideals, or outsiders who attack them based on limited, superficial knowledge. Were the Jedi perfect? No. Did a profoundly evil mastermind manipulate them and ultimately destroy them? Yes. Do either of these facts mean we should ignore all their service and efforts? I hope not
The Jedi's strict adherence to their way of doing things is what led to Anakin's fall, long before he and Padme began their (I agree, ill-advised) relationship. Anakin had an attachment to his mother, and even if the Jedi could not stop all slavery in the galaxy, they *could* help this one family. They already made an exception by allowing Anakin into the Order in the first place. There was *nothing* stopping them from returning to Tatooine shortly after the events of Episode I with something Watto *would* value and buying Shmi's freedom. It would have been no problem at all for them to set up Shmi with a nice apartment on Coruscant and continuing to let Anakin see her. The Jedi *knew* what Anakin feared most was losing his mother, and should have done whatever was necessary to destroy that fear. Instead, they stuck to their traditions and let an innocent woman die, and her son, whose only previous "crime" had been to love his mother, fall to the Dark Side.
Given that she had given food, shelter, and protection to two Jedi and their charge at risk to herself (especially given there was a genuine Sith on the planet hunting for them), what stops them from wiring enough to buy her freedom and bullshitting it as "services rendered?" Even the Hutts would recognize that a legit business transaction.
Speaking of that Qui-Gon Jinn was a complete idiot as well. He was interested in freeing both Anakin and his mother but yet when Anakin wins the race he seemed to have forgotten that he could have just bought her with his winnings Watto most likely have agreed since it sounds like he lost alot of money and would probably have been desperate for some way of getting it back. Which even if it meant that officially she was Qui-Gon's slave at that point still better than just leaving her on a planet where you can do pretty much anything you want so long as you didn't do anything to tick off the Hurts.
Anakin and Padme where written to be two people who had never dated before and who only loved eatch other.
I think the jedi's largest mistake was allowing themselves to be too interconnected with the Republic. While on the grander scale, the Republic was the best ally the Jedi could get, it had also damaged their image either their ability to take larger actions were restricted by the Republic itself or being seen as enforcers for what some could see as Core World Rule especially when on diplomatic missions were the Jedi's reputation as near invincible warriors struck fear into those who wish to challenge the authority of the Republic.
@Nathan .Z
Don't forget anyone with Force power would strike fear into even your allies, because you never know what they're up to. Force users have power you do not, hence subject to suspicion which will escalate.
The Jedi were not responsible for whatever assumptions other individuals had about them. They didn't tell anybody to think of them as invincible warriors or the Republic's enforcers. While it may have been a mistake to associate themselves with the Republic, doing so gave them the opportunity to do the most amount of good without having to enforce their own will on the galaxy.
I’d like to add that the Jedi order did NOT always have the good in their hearts, they enforced the Republic’s doctrines and rules.
Just look at the rise of General Grievous, his society was allowed to be hunted, enslaved and killed by other beings just because those beings were part of the Republic Senate. This case was particularly horrible, as the siding of the Jedi with slavers and criminals, caused the rise of one of their greatest and most dangerous adversary.
They do seem to make the habit of creating their own enemies like Jango and dooku.
@@Spartan3D213 More commonly the Sith Lords create enemies for them. Grievous is an example of that. Even if his hatred was instilled by the Republic’s galactic-size misstep, he would not have been made into such a devastating foe (and really more of a PR campaign to inspire fear and hatred of the CIS) without Sidious and Dooku.
My take: Forcing children to not form attachments is abuse no matter what.
If the alternative is those same children growing up to become mass-murdering, genocidal lunatics with raging god complexes (which all Sith are to some extent), then I think you're going to find it very difficult to get other people to agree with your opinion.
@@GamerX51 Lies, Sith are a way of life for them and are different from Dark Jedi or even some one who is attuned with the force who have still grown attachments. problem is star wars never really goes into detail about children who are force sensitive and their parents decline to let the order take their child, having powers and growing up with loving parents does not mean they would turn into sith without the Jedi around
@@devildavin The ones with Force powers will join one Order or the other because they are naturally attracted to developing their powers
And if the Jedi don't take them in, the Sith will find them (and it would be a lot worse then)
@@GamerX51 This is proof Kriea is correct, if being raised in a healthy environment leads to the dark side, and the only alternative is becoming slaves to the force. Then the logical conclusion is the force itself is evil, and the dark side an inevitability. So therefore the force must be destroyed.
@@trajancaesar2662 Yes, that totally won't kill everything in the galaxy at all, considering all life flows from the Force, and paradoxically the Force flows from all life. Can't have one without the other. Not to mention Kreia's a manipulative, nihilistic liar who strings you along for her petty revenge against the Council and the Sith Triumvirate.
I know and understand why it's next to impossible to use both sides of the force. But didn't a sith say that the dark side was like venom, which you think would make the light side the cure.
I'm only saying that because master Yaddle knew dark side force abilities, yet she was one of if not the most pure jedi ever. She was essentially like the mother of the jedi order.
So would that make it possible for jedi to learn some dark side abilities only using them if they were necessary, like against other sith.
This is an argument any baby snatcher sympatizer would make, hopefully the ISB gets to you.
Thanks for the video man! xD
Hello, Inquisitor here. I heard you mention a certain group of illegal cult-based terrorists, would you mind sending me in their direction?
If you ask me, Obi-Wan is most to blame for Anakin’s fall, really.
He let his emotions, his feeling of owing Qui Gon, fulfilling his promise to the man, get in the way of the fact that logically speaking, he was a poor fit to be Anakin’s master.
Anakin was old enough that he had attachments, and Obi Wan on the other hand was a newly Knighted Jedi without the experience necessary to handle taking on an unusual Padawan like Anakin.
If he had put aside his feelings, he likely would have recognised that instead of training Anakin himself, he could have fulfilled his promise to Qui Gon by convincing a far more experienced Jedi, preferably a Master, to train Anakin. One who could accomodate Anakin’s unusually strong emotional attachments and better teach him to put aside his feelings and let the force guide him. Ultimately, Anakin needed a Master who was far more like Qui Gon himself than Obi-Wan.
This isn’t Obi-Wan bashing, I love the guy and, there is a level of secondary blame to be placed on the council for allowing Obi-Wan to be his master. But I do truly think that with a better master Anakin’s fall could have been avoided.
In theory, in terms of experience perhaps Yoda himself should have overseen Anakin’s training, but I doubt that would have worked as personality-wise they would not have meshed.
I’m not sure who would be the best fit, but it wasn’t Obi-Wan.
So so so well said, dude
i mean Obiwan knows this as well, he blamed himself for it every single day/
@@christianrivera1708 Oh absolutely, I wasn’t suggesting otherwise
Very little actual textual evidence for this videos assertion. The jedai pretty much just trained extremely competent force vessels with almost no ability to resist the dark side and sent them out into the galaxy.
This, in turn, lead to hapless jedai being drawn to dark side objects and nexuses and nearly always being corrupted to the point they become a threat to the whole galaxy.
Maybe if the jedai order bothered to train their people in basic emotional coping mechanisms instead of focusing almost exclusively on their own purity maybe they would stop being the genesis of 90% of the galaxy's civilization breaking problems.
well it goes back prequel era code of the Jedi. there is no emotion but peace. There is no passion, there is serenity. The code tell Jedi suppress negative emotions to not fall to dark side. They where no taught how channel their emotions into the force. gray Jedi conquer their dark side can channel emotional states that are gray. How ever this lead to disagreement with Jedi order.
The jedai used both sides of the force and it corrupted them trying to maintain balance. they also didnt send them out into the galaxy. the dark jedai escaped and found the Sith. The current jedi of the prequels did teach how to control emotions and handle grief and suffering, anakin just ignored it all
@@spark300c gray jedi dont exist lol there was no disagreement because it never happened
I think that Anakin and Padme's relationship became unhealthy in a large part due to necessity to keep it a secret.They were forced to "live a lie" and couldn't even get a relationship advice or go to therapy together lol. So yes, the jedi code of the time was to blame for Anakin's fall.
No one was forcing Anakin to stay in the Order. If he really cared about Padme, he could have just left and entirely devoted himself to her.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi He could, but then he'd be letting his master and the Order down, and he didn't want that. Forcing him to choose between the Order, which was his family, and his lover was unnecessary and could be avoided if the jedi allowed relationships and instead simply taught to not be possesive in them.
Based!
The weird thing is, Obi Wan totally knew about Anakin and Padme. But he never offered any advice and Anakin never asked for it. Then again, considering Obi Wan's weird relationship with Satine, he probably wasn't the best guy to turn to for relationship advice.
@@MrChewie1138 Sometimes you have to choose. Anakin failed to see that. You cant always get everything you want. Obi-Wan saw this.
In my opinion Anakin was supposed to expose everything wrong with the Jedi, especially the “no attachment philosophy”. When Anakin was brought to the Jedi council he already formed an attachment, and of course “he’s to old”.
In my opinion the prequel trilogy is a story of how bad ideas even in good faith are what ultimately led to the defeat of the Jedi, Anakin is of course to blame for a lot of his actions but the Jedi unknowingly yet willingly pushed him there.
In a good timeline I see Anakin being taught by Qui Gon Jin. He would have taught him how to use the force, how to love. How to be selfish and selfless when right. Not to use the force for his own gain. And not to fear the dark side.
It’s ultimately the Jedi’s absolutist fear of the dark side that leads to their repeated demise. When I saw Yoda see his dark side self in The Clone Wars series I thought of the dark side similar to the shadow self.
The shadow self is basically the part of ourselves we hide from others. The Jedi try to push away all ideas and possibilities of attachment but an endeavor such as that could never be successful.
To do that would defy human existence, what is it worth loving everyone if you can’t have one or more persons to really love. I believe the Jedi just push their attachments into their shadow selves. Which is even deadlier because now their attachments are strengthened even more by the dark side.
Balance doesn’t mean giving halfway into the destructive lifestyle of the force it just means being capable of being your selfish needs without getting in the way of others needs.
The PT movies show the Jedi to be right. They’re right about attachment (unhealthy relationships), they’re right that Anakin doesn’t have the emotional balance to safely become a Jedi, they’re right that marriage will conflict with the duties of a Jedi, and they’re right about fear leading to the Dark Side. The prequels validate the Jedi, and Vader serves as a cautionary tale of the price of ignoring the rules.
True, attachment to anything hurts a lot when something or someone to what or whom you are attached hurts a lot.
To know if you are attached think of the person or thing like you don't have it and look at what you fell
The Jedi order have so many secrets
So does every government. Secrets are often required to keep people safe.
Possibly too many.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi But mostly to control people.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi That's always the excuse. & damn near every time it's because they don't trust the people they're supposed to be serving.
@@markuhler2664 Yes and you have every right to say they are too secretive, but the fact is even a perfect government would have some secrets. Like military and intelligence stuff they need to make sure their enemies don't get wind of.
There is no emotion and there is no passion. Also no therapy. Simple fact. Out of the terrifying sith lords many of them actually came back to the light only because of attachments. Strangely if the ban was successful anakin would never return.tere would be no Luke.
You overlooked 2 important details:
1. Kyber crystals - the Jedi hoarded and monopolized them.
2. The parents may have given consent but the children who might never see their families again did not.
Sometimes I wonder… Could the Jedi have done more for the galaxy if they made the church of the force the republic’s state religion?
The ancient force users balanced light and dark sides with no problem
True, from what I've seen the problems began when they decided to remove the dark side from the Je'Daii teachings.
The whole point of the Je'daii is that they were wrong. Their story ended with them realizing that the Dark Side, in any measure, is a threat to life itself, simply by existing. It was a lesson they learned the hard way, but a lesson they learned nonetheless.
everything when something new came is peachy and fine but after a bit that's when the problems arise
@@geetslys The thing I don’t get is if the dark side is so corrupting then how did they last as long as they did? It’s not likely figured this out in one generation, they were doing the whole light dark thing for a while before things got out of hand.
@@geetslys I dissagree, the real reason they stopped doing that is because The Rakata scared them from bogun, they were completely fine with it being part of their balanced teaching before that.
On the transport ship taking them to Naboo in AOTC they have this exchange:
Padmé: Must be difficult, having sworn your life to the Jedi, not be able to visit the places you like or do the things you like.
Anakin: Or be with the people that I love.
Padmé: Are you allowed to love? I thought that was forbidden for a Jedi.
Anakin: Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi’s life. So you might say that we are encouraged to love.
which I would define as unconditional love, - this is Anakin’s view on the matter and he’s like this in TPM so this is something he learned from his mom not the Jedi.
So you might say that we are encouraged to love. - This is the weakest affirmation I’ve ever heard.
If Jedi are allowed to love Anakin should just be able to answer Yes to Padmé’s question but what he does is say No with more words. Seriously if you have to give a 30 word answer to a Yes or No question the answer is No.
Padmé and Anakin were also fine together. The Clovis arc is a shit story and he beats the guy nearly to death when he walks in on him forcing himself on Padmé and as he entered we can clearly hear Padmé say “Clovis, no.”
Can you make a vid about the umbaran planet and how powerful it actually was
?
While Anakin's fall wasnt explicitly the Jedi's fault, it was a foreseeable event with the most basic of rational ability, expounded by the Jedis' fallible code. Take a slave, with all the trauma that implies, then try to induct them into another highly restrictive order(that ultimately is just another form of slavery) without ever addressing underlying trauma and you get chaos and catastrophe. The jedi order failed as a whole to perform what a child psychologist or social worker could have done.
And considering the Jedi just bans emotional attachments, but Anakin had already formed the attachment prior to the ban, and had no real world example or anybody he could go to for help concerning his attachment to Padme, and you get someone completely ignorant into how to behave or handle such attachments. He had no parents to draw on, no mentors he could ask(its banned). So you have an adult with the emotional maturity of a child in an order that refuses to provide any guidance aside from "Don't experience that thing youve already experienced".
Still think the no emotional attachments thing could've used some revision probably just teaching healthy relationships and cooping with the loss of loved ones Revan start of darkness was the horrors of the Mandalorian war attempting to avoid those scenarios does nothing when they do happen and not all are going to have the same emotional fortitude even Luke's Jedi order eased up on that rule.
they do teach the jedi how to have healthy relationships and control their emotions..anakin ignored all of that, because he ha dhis own pre conceived ideas about the world since he was like 9 years old when he became a jedi
The Jedi members of the Clone War era had healthy relationships. As the presentation pointed out, Anakin had such an unhealthy attachment to ppl to the point where he basically viewed them as his possessions. Like other ppl, you can't seem to tell the difference between having a healthy relationship and a possessive relationship. Luke didn't have the same relationship with Mara that Anakin did with Padme.
The main misconception everyone has about Jedi and their version of ‘balance’ of the force. They don’t mean balance so much as Harmony. Because the Dark Side is a disruption in the force that undoes the balance and harmony of the force.