My answer to the question: So let’s rip apart the arguments I made in the vid 😅... I think the definition of hero/villain is where a lot of the conflict comes from. There’s two sets of definitions of these terms (at least): irl hero/villain and narrative hero/villain. The irl hero/villain has to do with morality, narrative hero/villain has to do with story objectives. The confusion comes because these two standards often overlap, and jumping back and forth between the two standards was what allowed me to make arguments that sounded consistent (but weren't) for each side of the question. But if you’re ACTUALLY consistent, the picture is a lot clearer. To go back to the three story pillars I mentioned -- plot, character, and theme -- those each have a hero definition associated with it. --> Hero in the plot framework is the one who brings about the external event the story has framed as the “good outcome”: eg saves the day, wins the championship, true love, evil fails, etc. --> Hero in the character framework makes the inner personal change the story has framed as “the good change”: eg overcomes weakness, feels love again, feels forgiveness, faces fears, proves X to themselves, etc. --> Hero in the theme framework represents the ideal or the ethical/philosophical change the story has framed as “true/good”: eg violence is not the answer, love conquers all, freedom triumphs over tyranny, etc. Narratively, Jinx is a villain in the frameworks of plot and character, but a hero in the framework of theme. She brings about war, which is the outcome the story has told us is the “bad outcome”. She embraces Jinx, which is the inner change the story has framed as the “bad change”. BUT she accepts change, which is what the story tells us is the “true/good ideal”. That makes us conflicted about how we see the character. The second major thing that makes us conflicted is that as far as irl hero/villain, the rest of Arcane’s story is so grey that we have a hard time accepting the story’s labels of good/bad. Maybe Piltover deserves to be overthrown and Zaun SHOULD fight them. How can Jinx be a hero if she murdered people? Perfectly accurate to use hero or villain in that context, but I think it’s on a different track of hero/villain than talking about narrative hero/villain. I do agree with people saying the hero/villain dichotomy is useless in this show, but what I said above is my understanding of WHY it’s useless here. Usually the two different standards overlap more, and within the narrative definitions, there’s more overlap too (or at least not as much outright contradiction). Anyway, I’ve loved reading all your opinions as always! Very happy to see such variety. PS I’ll be uploading an extra video this week (PROBABLY) since my Wednesday one is going to be shorter than I thought. So Wednesday and Friday will be a short each, then Sunday another long vid like usual.
As very often in reality, we do not know if Jinx's decision might be considered heroic (at least from Zauns view - one countries hero is the other ones terrorist), because the story hasn't played out yet, and we will not be able to find out if she really destroyed something that would have led to a positive outcome for Zaun, because that path is lost. The council deciding to give Zaun formal independence wouldn't have lead to the wealth disparity vanishing and Zaun still being dependent on the scraps that fall of Peltovers table. The council decision might have just lead to a formal independence that could have even made things worse in some ways (e.g. border controls, work regulations for foreign citizens or import taxes). We won't know, because this path is blocked. Jinx bombing the council might still lead to improving things for Zaun in long run. In humanities history there aren't that many examples of revolutions and people achieving independence, rights and freedom, that did not have a war or violence as a precursor. People in possession of power rarely forfeit that power without a fight. So we have to wait and find out how the writers will continue the story (which will tell you a lot about their moral, ethic and political believes).
Is accepting a bad change a good and moral thing? If I do bad things, wouldnt it be better not to accept this change? In reality we would try therapy, what would also be better for the person itself (being happy without harming others). I still feel like many people in the comment section are looking for excuses why they liked a flawed character, even though there is nothing wrong with that in the first place.
@@tvolz9749 On the contrary, I think it's absolutely necessary to accept the reality of bad change and therapy can be a huge part of that. But acceptance doesn't preclude wanting to improve ourselves.
@@schnee1 So Mel’s magic item has me thinking, unfortunately I don’t know the lore in-depth like others so … I’m sure there’s someone else decrypting.. I would love to hear your thoughts because here’s mine (: I thinking, if we’ve seen Rabadons Deathcap and Liandry’s.. So what if it’s maybe she has something wrapped up in her necklace or somehow it saves her and a few other councillors, Jayce then upgrades the item to further protect her so we could do an early development of … Guardians Angel? Locket of Solari? NullMagic Mantle? Zeke’s Convergance? Or when searching a Sigil she’s shares with whoever “Rell” is ???
Jinx is both HERO & VILLAIN. She's a MENACE to Piltover society and VIGILANTI to Zaun. Jinx is an ECO-TERRORIST she fight's on the behalf of the poor people of Zaun with extreme methods. Think about if the people of Piltover hate the people of Zaun because they are poor and they also don't care about what they are doing to the people of Zaun. So...Jinx plays the part of both hero and villain it's all about perspective.
Idk, didn't root for her at any point since time skip, enjoyed immensely when my man Ekko beat her up. Unlike all other characters she annoyed the living fuck out of me. Her writing was perfect and I wouldn't have it be any other way, but holy fuck do I dislike her.
@@xentiment6581 interesting because she’s gotta be the most popular character of the series. The fact that you acknowledge that she’s written well though is great, I totally respect your opinion because of it. To be honest though I do agree that she can be a little annoying. I guess that’s just because of her personality though
@@ojw-1 she is not annoying i respect ur point though her character is perfectly written for me if jinx/powder isn't written like that then her character would just like other generic type of hero/villain/anti-villain whatever that is and that would be boring plus she has mental unstability and lots of other stuff too so I get why she's like that.
@@missa4112 yeah her character is written extremely well and I wouldn’t have it any other way. I think I should specify that a character can be annoying but still greatly written.
YES like ofc its absolutely not a tragic misunderstanding, Vi DID physically assault her child sister and then ran and left the sobbing bleeding child next to the corpse of their adopted Father, but Vi's intention was NOT to abandon her, it was to breathe a second and gather head bc she has enormously toxic anger issues. But its important to note that Powder has clearly defined attatchment issues and Vi shouldve known leaving her in that situation would KILL Powder. But Vi did not willingly abandon Powder long term, that was Marcus. Vi is absolutely guilty of a lot of things regarding how she treats Powder and Jinx, and later in the series she DOES abandon Jinx, more than once. But as far as episode 3, people need to stop accusing her of abandonment. There's plenty to be mad at her about without twisting facts lmfao.
Nope. Vi did abandon Powder but then had second thoughts when she realized that she left her in front of the people that just tried to kill herself. Is it okay for a husband to beat his wife in the middle of the street, leave her there and then all the sudden realize he made a mistake and go back and get her? No! Vi is abusive and just because she loves Power, doesn't mean that what she did was excusable. This is typical domestic violence and predatory behavior.
@@misteree78 I think that is a bit harsh of a sentence for a traumatized child herself (Vi was 15) it is good judgement to remove yourself from a situation when you realize you don't have emotional control to "cool down" so as to avoid violence. Ideally she would have done this before she hit Powder. she was gone for less than 5 minutes (less than 3 really) before she was ready to run and protect her. Honestly her behavior to her sister throughout the first act was well above what can be reasonably expected in her circumstance.
@@misteree78 vi was a kid… you can’t put her on the same level as a fully grown adult. Plus she had a breaking point since everyone she loved died. Cut her some slack.
Vi was a child as well as Powder. How can another child handle the deaths of their friends, and a father figure? BOTH were traumatized. I hate when one character acts stronger than the other, that means they aren't effected. Which is wrong. How could Vi, as a child, know when to leave her sister when she needed some time to think about herself for once? Vi didn't want to abandon Powder cause if she did, Vi would've kept walking and allowed Slico to have her. But she was just a kid. Its excusable because she is a kid that witnessed DEATH. Its not a "Wife and Husband" comparison because those are adults knowing its wrong to do that. Kids don't know how to deal with theirselves in war. If we were Vi, we would be mad at Powder too during literally everyone dying and fire everywhere, emotions burst. Both sisters deserve slack, Powder got basically used by Slico in a way then Vi was locked in years of her own guilt.
I think literally everyone in this commetn section can't wait for season 2. But who it is who really deserves it? Is it Caitlyn? I mean she almost shot her in the head. Or maby the pink haired girl who tried to escape?
@@Ufos1984 Caitlyn was acting in self-defense. The pink girl was working for Ekko, so I highly doubt she deserves it. Honestly, the only group of people that ‘may deserve it’ were the six enforcers that she killed, but they were all friends with Caitlyn , so I doubt they deserved it either. Actually, the only person she killed that really deserved it was Slico, he killed innocent people on purpose, and used them and animals as tools for his inhumane experiments.
@@chcbxcbcbxx4571 What i meant was that Jinx almost shot Caitlyn when Cait was tied to the chair, sorry if I was not clear :). But my question was rhetorical, I wanted to point out that Jinx is NOT punishing the people who deserves it, rather hurting whoever comes in her way. She is dangerous and her actions should not be glorified. And yes, Silco was only one who deserved it, not only becouse of things you mentionet, but also for changing little vulnerable girl into a murderer.
For me thats one of the bigest WHY moments in the show like why did Marcus kidnapp her, especially in this situation where he isn't even in a save place to do so. He had to drag her unconcious boddy from the slum (where everyones hostile against the enforcers and knows Vi) to a prison island for ... a grunch on her? Since there was no trail he didnt even get any recocognition for catching the ones responsible for the explosion in the upper city
@@NewSchattenRayquaza my assumption about the latter is that he just said they were killed in the explosion on the docks, and my assumption about the former is that he’s an enforcer and in the Undercity a lot of folks seemed ready to give Vander’s kids up and in Piltover he was at that point close enough to the top to not be questioned
@@NewSchattenRayquaza as much as you hate Marcus he was never a killer. He was just tricked into it by Silco. That's why he said "it wasn't the deal" and why he was shaking after he shot Ekko and about to shot Cait. That's probably the first time he ever shot someone.
@@coolbanana165 no-one directly said that their was no fair trial but Caitlyn did say that Vi didn't have anything on her record, which I think shows that she didn't get a trial at all let alone a fair one because surely they would try to charge her for something if they did, Marcus probably did this so as little people know about Vi being alive as possible.
"Screw the world, screw peace. If you turn me into a monster then you deserve a monster" I think this line best describes who Jinx is now. She's not good or evil, hero or villain, but a embodiment of "Chaotic neutral" literal chaotic.
Yes cause if it was a nuke.. and genocide’ing a whole population like a monster against majority who civilians who didn’t actually effect or play a role.. heat totally chaotic “neutral” ok buddy.. she’s literally “chaotic evil” if indeed that was a nuke… 😂. Fk the world fk peace is literally harmful and directly negative to the well being of all including those that literally played no part in what happened to them.. 😂 aka ur worse then the monsters that made u a monster… if it isn’t a nuke then I’d probably agree.. btw “chaotic neutral “ doesn’t disrupted other opposing groups.. they just resist and don’t bent to it… fk the work and peace is “chaotic EVIL” aka ur removing any threats an possible of threats that could go against ur own views.. 😂 dead pool and death stroke are chaotic neutral.. jinx is not.. so ignore all the above cause her actions bring harm to others innocents include.. she is EVIL and CHAOTIC.. I like her too.. love her character butt she’s a evil nary piece of shit.. not gonna lie to myself and pretend she’s not that “bad” 😂 u would not hold the same view of jinx was irl.. fantasy allows us to make hard exceptions for stuff u would not accept irl.. she’s a nasty bitch 😂
@@shovel662 all are impossible.. as I think u might agree.. reality is basically just bunch of spectrums… and the lines we draw on that spectrum are completely arbitrary and only done to create groups/divisions simply cause humans evolved really to see things like that.. it’s beneficial for survival to see who’s one of us and who’s not.. butt I don’t think spectrums come in just lines.. think a sphere and any one point.. like up down left right forward backwards.. we can be all over butt we still would draw arbitrary bubbles with in that sphere simple to know how far or close or above and below us that group is from us if not in our own bubble.. 😂 and ultimately despite it being a good means of survival.. it’s also probably the thing that causes and leads to the most harm.. intolerance racism sexism homophobic etc.. dehumanizing or glorification of ppl/groups even over very minor views.. think Christianity and denomination.. all think they are right and the others wrong.. some actually hate others for being “too” different from their denominational views… personally this is why I’m a humanist.. it’s rooted in science.. it not only doest claim absolute morality nor good and evil.. all is nuances and things are measured by wellbeing.. u literally can’t dehumanize ppl not even “bad/evil” ppl or u by definition can not be a humanist.. again there’s nuances to even that statement… conclusion.. we’re nothing but monkes in shoes and some of us monkes are good at realizing this this we aren’t inherently better or worse then any other monke.. 😂 this room for conversation and proper education IS KING.. out side of just basic general conversation with ppl.. I don’t actually believe in neutral posited negative “emotions” or etc.. reality is a GREY canvas and we humans simply MAKE the colors we paint in it grime brightest colors to darkest .. and try to paint a MEANINGFUL picture that’s good for everyone’s well being.. that’s how I view everything.. lol
No, she's evil. She does a ton of bad shit in the show and only shows loyalty to a man who is a monster. A good person can have flaws and still be a good person. Likewise a bad person can have virtues but still be a bad person. Like Jinx and Silco. Silco isn't the bad guy because he wants independence. He's the bad guy because he's a gangster that ruins people's lives and kills without remorseless.
Well said, it shows that because they are just humans they make mistakes and they act more on feelings and not logic, and even though jinx can be considered the villain, when you look back at her past you can clearly understand why she is the way she is and why she is doing it, so she is not the kind of villain who is just going around killing people because she feels like it, she is not evil she is broken
Frequently life is full of grey and people are frequently the Heroes of their own stories. The average person is rarely pure evil OR good. Even some of the best of Humanity did some bad things in their glory years. An the hero of one person's story can be the villain of another. Green Peace are heroes who try to save the environment, but also are criminals. Terrorists. Yet they became that way because they saw the futility of Law & Order.
Couldn’t have said it better, arcane makes every character actually feel like a real person instead of something as idealistic as a “hero” or a “villain”
sadly we cant forget that this is a story, and if stories carry on its characters usually become more story characters, at every turn of the new page. I feel like I'm the only person who feels this way BUUUUT no season 2, at least not for these characters.
The moment where Ekko sees Powder in there while he's beating up Jinx, makes me cry every time. You can see that on her face, is an expression of realisation and hopelessness. She pulls the bomb, knowing full well that she might die. She accepts her death and it just saddens me
Ekkos is to blame for her mental state as he gave Vi the info on the job top side that caused the whole mess. Jinx isn't a monster but a tragic character that's been written well
@@mysteryace2129 That's a small-minded way of thinking about it. It's not Ekko's fault that Jayce was playing with dangerous magic. It's not his or Jinx's fault that that place blew up. It's Jayce's. But it's also not Jayce's fault that the place blew up because he didn't blow it up, Jinx did. You could say it's Vi's fault for instilling a sense of inferiority in Jinx that she needed to overcome. But it's Jinx's fault she made the bomb. You could say Silco's to blame for making Jinx make a bomb, or that he adopted her. See what's interesting there? It's all in the nature of the characters all interacting with each other. It's not just Ekko's fault nor Jinx's nor Jayce's nor Vi's nor Vander's nor Silco's nor Mel's. It's all of them interacting in the way that they did. That's why Arcane is so brilliant. Everyone's to blame and yet no one's to blame. No one's to blame, that's the point. It's an exploration on what the world does to people, and whether or not people are 'monsters'. It's up to us to determine whether Jinx is a monster or Silco or even Jayce. That's the point. It's supposed to be debatable. She's a monster. She's killed people. But she's also just a broken girl. See the debate? That's the point of her character. It's not just a one and done kind of theme. Essentially, the point of Arcane, which you are missing, is not to convey a theme, but explore a question. What does it mean to be honourable? A monster? To be good? Bad? A good leader? A good person?
@popcookie475 all I see is you excusing Vi's action by using rhetoric of "he technically did this," and "She technically did that." No, the fact is Powder wouldn't have been topside to mess with stones that caused an explosion if Vi(the leader of the group) didn't take them up there. That was her call, her judgment. She gets the blame if it goes south as she was the reason they were up there in the first place. Watch Vanders scene again if you missed that point. Vi undermines Vander's judgment due to her pride by telling her sister to keep stones that enforcers were looking for. No good big sister puts her youngest siblings in the middle of danger like this. All she had to do was take them from her and give her a head pat of, "thanks for giving this to me, I might need it."
@@mysteryace2129 That's the point of Vi's character. She's struggling with understanding what it means to be a good sister. She doesn't know what it actually takes to be an older sister to Jinx. That's her main conflict. And no, I'm not saying 'technically', I'm saying they actually did that. Not technically, actually. It's none of their faults that they ended up in the situation they did, but it's also all of their faults. That's the complexity of Arcane
@popcookie475 I know that's her character. I'm pointing it out. That's her character flaw as she is a bad sister and a terrible leader. What I don't get is people not understanding this themselves and lie about her not being these things which she is. Why was the crew topside? Because Vi wanted them up there to pull a big job. Where did Vi get this information? From Littleman. Who is Littleman? Young Ekko. So me putting the blame on these 2 isn't a bias but factually cause and effect. Vi wouldn't have brought the crew up there if Ekko didn't tell her this information. These 2 are at fault for the top side situation happening in the first place with Jayce being number 3 since he was housing dangerous materials.
Honestly, I think she's neither. Jinx is a consequence. A consequence of so many different characters actions, inactions, choices and failures.. including her own. A consequence of the systemic failures core to the city itself. As a character she's absolutely not a hero; There's nothing heroic about anything she does after the time skip. As a character she's explicitly a villain given that she's quite literally a deranged serial killer that will emotionlessly kill pretty much anything or anyone. But in terms of her role in the story she's really the embodiment of an on rushing disaster that has been brewing within Piltover since long before she was even born.
totally agree on that note she almost feels more like a plot point than a character honestly, like a chaos that can be affected, but no one really knows if it was effective.
Everyone is a consequence. She is a villain, the good she makes does not outweight the bad she does. She might not be a clear villain like Silco (that actually know exactly the bad he's doing), but she kills for selfish reasons. She hurts people who does not deserve it.
What would define jinx as hero or villain hasn't happened yet. We haven't seen the end-state. Hero is a label, it isn't a state of being. I'm not calling jinx a saint, she's certainly insane and homicidal. It's not so simple as declaring it and it being true though. The simple fact this is debated means the point has merit. Not everyone thinks of a hero as the hero, so if Zaun does give her that title it doesn't matter how good she is she'd have that label. We haven't seen the aftermath so really the answer to this is a solid maybe.
Ekko went through just as much shit and yet he doesn't go out there killing people. I love Jinx but she is EASILY swaying more to the evil side than even the grey one.
@@juliogomesdesouza9035 ekko didnt watch his parents die nor accidentally kill his adoptive family to get left by his sister. Theres some similarity, but lets not stretch the truth for the point.
It's interesting how in both the beginning and the end, her inventions intervene at the worst timing. At the beginning when her monkey bomb goes off right as theres hope for vander and the kids escape, and at the end when her mistle targets the counsel right as they agree on peace.
I think having ~villainous characters as protagonists is such a good thing, since it forces us to question their supposed villainy. That isn't to say a they need to be in a gray area, but the mere fact that they're presented to us as a protagonist - someone to cheer for - makes us more open to seeing the many colors of their morality. We may even conclude that they are undoubtedly villains, but we also see everything else they are. And we can't help but cheer for that.
As much as their actions are that of villains, causing harm to many, the nuance of the how and why is what makes it so interesting. It's not just for the sake of itself, there's underlying issues at play that make it interesting, it's why at certain moments our characters are introduced contextually AS heroes or villains. It's all in the context of the moment, the eye of the beholder.
I can't agree with the glorification of immorality. You might have just worded your comment in a strange way, but that's what it feels like what you're trying to say.
“She makes things wrong for those who deserve it.” I think you almost nailed it here. To me, Jinx will always be exactly what she’s always been billed as, a loose cannon. It’s not about being a hero or villain, Jinx is a jinx; period. She’s a “Powder”-keg that’s viable to blow wherever she is. Whether you’re her friend or enemy, whether you’re the hero or villain, Jinx and her actions could either hurt or harm you; maybe even both at the same time! If she arrives in a story, you can be sure you’re in for a good time! Just, you know, when the dust clears be prepared for casualties on either side. In a setting like Piltover/Zaun, where both sides are corrupt and vile in their own ways, a character like Jinx is almost needed. She’s a symptom of the conflict that is constantly simmering between the two, and a source of karma for both. Sometimes Zaunites love her, but messing with her is dangerous and she brings the law down upon them with her mayhem. Piltover hates her, but since they are the most powerful they have the most to lose by her actions. Blowing up a building in Zaun isn’t the same as blowing one up in Piltover after all. I think Jinx is amazing because she’s a Wildcard character who really embodies that role of uncertainty. She is a very real threat and her destruction, even when accidental, can change the course of a story. She could do the heroic thing and cause tragedy, or deal out villainous violence against those who justly deserve it. If she’s in a scene you’re both excited to see what she’ll do, but afraid of the repercussions all the same. She is a source of both anxiety and joy. Drama incarnate.
The one true thing about when she is there, destruction occurs on both sides is proven in battle. The first time we get introduced to Jinx is her exploding her own cargo and shooting at her own crew while also attacking the other side. She doesn't care if her own side gets hurt as long as she can deal damage. This also occurs when she reunites with Vi. She doesn't mind that she could shoot Vi or harm her, she just shoots wherever, guaranteeing something to get hit. She is a jinx for everyone involved, even herself. I mean in the fight against Ekko, she is even willing to kill herself to win the fight by igniting an explosive next to herself.
So Catlyn, Ekko, and Vi deserved suffering? does Mylo, Cleggor, and Vader deserved to die? All that innocent people mixed in her explotions "deserve it"? In think not, and I also think she is a villain.
@@shaelyn_world9501 tbh, everyone is right with their opinion, but that just Shows how well done deaths are on this Show, no "omg he's deadddddd now be saddddd 😢😢😢" but we instead get so much wonderful info on the characters and who they truly are
@shaelyn_world9501 Vi's actions led to Vander's death. Vi killed him not Powder. Vi was the one to tell Powder to keep the stones that ended up killing Vander despite Vander saying they should be disposed of.
Jinx is the only villain that i really felt sorry for Normally, when villain does a destructive thing you feel hatred towards them but this isn't the case with jinx. you just feel sorry for her and for that she seems to have to keep playing with her blocks because of other's mistakes or manipulation you really feel she doesn't deserve it
I think it’s because they don't completely try to paint anyone as a hero or villain. It instead focuses more on trying to show each of these people responding to their circumstances (sometimes that is greed or dealing with inferiority) and dealing with consequences. It shows the more complex nature of the characters, blurring the line of good and evil.
The problem is in "realistic" backgrounds you could go back far enough and do that with pretty much anyone. Did Silco deserve Vander's change of heart and subsequent attempted murder simply because Vander saw the consequences of his decision to rebel up close and lost his resolve?
@@Idontevenwanachannel I’m pretty sure that’s explored a bit in the series. I can’t remember for sure, but I think silco wanted the ‘best’ for the undercity, which was basically killing all the topsides, good or bad. Jinx only wanted justice from the people who hurt her and ruined her life, the people who deserved it, though all her trauma and crazy ideas affected those choices. again I’m not sure and that’s only my interpretation
This is one of the many beautiful things about Arcane. There is no true "good" or "bad" side as shown in a lot of media. There is only a world, and characters who act according to what they want from that world. "Heroes" can do things that hurt others and "villains" can do things that help. People aren't inherently good or bad. They're just people. Jinx is a fine example of that. She's in essence just a girl who wanted to be loved. Yet she was dealt a terrible hand in life, and continued to inadvertently do things that killed or drove away those she cared for. That ultimately drove her to madness, and led her to kill her father figure, estrange herself from her sister, and blast the council. Good villains are supposed to be the heroes of their own stories. And I think Jinx is the hero of hers. She overcame her trauma, accepted herself for who she really is, and dealt a devastating blow to the people who oppressed those like her. She's also a murderous psychopath who kills in cold blood. A terrorist hell bent on bringing down the city of progress. She can be seen as a murderer, or a revolutionary. A hero or a villain. A catalyst for change, or a harbinger of destruction. She's all, some, or none of those things. It depends on how her tale is told, and which side tells it. The fact that both sides can even be considered just shows how much depth this character has, and how much work was put into this series. Amazing analysis Schnee. Subbed.
As someone that worked in government with real life problems of groups of people with agendas and antagonizing each other, I have to say it is pretty much exactly like this... A bunch of people trying to do the right thing, a history with baggage that promotes distrust and hate, obligations, responsibility and compromise... A lot of misunderstanding and all it takes is one wild card to make everything crumble... If anything the only thing that Arcane is missing is the role of the media but it didn't serve te story they were trying to tell so it's ok
Yes , I have to mention a small fact .Vander was given another chance to become the hero, Silco wanted it to happen so badly he was trying to use shimmer on him to achieve his ends.That might be the reason he had a statue of Vander made in the lanes of the undercity. What do u think ?
@@kernelparadigm The shimer was highly unestable made the person unestable, violent and kill them. It was just another way to kill Vander and destroy his name.
The brilliance of it is that the question "Hero or Villain?" doesnt even make sense for her. The more you argue one way, the stronger the argument becomes in the opposite direction. For every character in this show, there's a disconnect between the intent behind their actions and the effect of the actions -- nothing ever goes according to plan. Even something as straightforward as Vi taking a minute to cool off in a stressful situation gets twisted into maximum trauma for her sister. Victor tries to heal himself and kills Sky in the process. Vander makes a tenuous peace with the enforcers, but this creates a situation where the only path forward is for him to take the fall, which, in the best of times, would have imploded that peace. And at the extremes are characters like Singed and Jinx. Singed, arguably, is the only character for whom the intent and outcome of his actions are aligned, but he also operates in a very ambiguous moral and ethical space, and his intended outcomes are almost cerebral in nature -- hes the pure embodiment of a type of detatched scientific rationale. Intent and outcome can align if consequences don't matter. Jinx on the other hand is the embodiment of the idea that intent and outcome are and will always be fundamentally different. What's brilliant about the final scene is that, no matter what intent you might interpret for her launching the rocket, it will inevitably lead to an unintended outcome. By accepting this about herself, she's the only character in this show who has actually divorced intent and outcome from each other. In that last scene, I don't see her acting with any *outcome* in mind at all. She is acting with intent, but I don't see her as having any kind of end in mind -- even something as simple as "just watching the world burn", which, as villain motivations go, is the easiest way to justify any action. I don't see that in her eyes at all -- there's sorrow, pain, and acceptance, but no malice. It's a heroic act of destruction and war, and a villainous act of protection and love.
Well put I really think whether you see Jinx as a villain or hero comes down to how you interpret her actions. I mean let’s be real if I actually lived in zaun I’d probably think Jinx was a hero for striking at my oppressors while if I lived in piltover I’d probably believe Jinx to be the villain for attacking “unprovoked” (remember how most are unaware how dire the situation in zaun is).
The moment she killed half a dozen guards in cold blood, and without being ordered to do so, it's the moment she became a full blown villain. And those guards weren't even chasing her or hunting her. They were acting as security guards at a festival. She's not Harley Quinn. She's the Joker. Is everything that happened to her tragic? Absolutely. Can we understand how she got where she is? Definitely. Can she be redeemed? No. She already crossed the moral event horizon. Having a shitty childhood isn't an excuse to commit mass homicide.
@@brian0057 100%. There is no excusing mass murder. (Feels like that should go without saying). But to be "villianous" is a trope that implies a specific kind of evil intent. Powder's actions were those of someone intending to be heroic, and Jinx's actions -- right up to the last episode -- were those of someone intending to be villainous. But in that last episode, she stopped being a true villain, because she stopped being concerned with outcome. Villians have a goal in mind, and usually have a twisted sense of morality that justifies the means they take toward that goal (the Joker is a prime example). But at the end, Jinx has no goal, and she has no twisted morality. It doesn't matter if she believes that what she's doing is right or wrong, or what comes of it all, because all that's left for her is pain. She transcended villainy into something that there isn't a good word for, much less any kind of identifiable trope.
People are blinded by the likability of her character. She lures and kills a bunch of enforcers, the bombs intentionally call out for help to lure people in. She takes pleasure in killing.
The song at the end supports jinx’s rupture between the action and the intent: “I want you to loose like I loose when I play”. She herself is aware of her tragedy
Part 2: Vi. I feel the arguments you made for the hero arc fit Vi more. She started being built up as a villain as soon as everyone in her family died and she was kidnapped and sent to prison. However, she still chose to fight for her people including working with people who work for a corrupted system. She learns to let her guard down which sometimes bites her in the butt. I like that she is a flawed character. Knowing that her sister won’t fight on the side of good or morally grey, she stills tries to save her and get her back which also bites everyone else in the butt. Unlike Jinx, she is the one who works with government officials while being against them at the same time. She knows what needs to be done whereas Jinx doesn’t. Jinx just makes whatever decision fits her needs at the time which is what makes them great parallels and foils.
My initial thoughts are that I don't think Jinx can really be defined as either one. But not for the same reasons. Every action she takes is, ultimately, a plea for love. As Powder, all she wants is to be whatever will make Vi proud of her, whatever will make Vi love her. As she grows into "Jinx", all she wants is to make Silco proud of her, is to make Silco love her. Her motivations are never about being good, or about being evil. She doesn't seem to attack Piltover because she was fighting back against the unjust Council, or because she wanted to cause a war. She seems to attack Piltover as a twisted sort of vengeance over Silco's death, despite the fact that she was the one that pulled the trigger (which could be explained as 'because Vi wanted Silco gone'). The next thing I thought to look at is to think where Jinx's arc goes after the events of the story. If she were a hero, she would lead the force of Zaun in a war against Piltover, or disappear, never to be seen again. But that's not Jinx, she's not a leader and she's very flashy, she doesn't want to disappear. If she were a villain, she'd probably be some loose cannon randomly attacking people (both Zaun and Piltover) just because she wanted to. But that doesn't seem very Jinx either. She is a loose cannon, but none of her actions are born from her own desire to cause pain or to cause disorder. So there's still not a good reasoning for hero or villain here. The only thing that I can't see any "hero" argument for is her coldness in regards to death. Specifically, the firelight girl. If Jinx/Powder was just a product of her desire for love like my initial thoughts, then in the moment of her killing that girl, she should be torn between Powder wanting to love Vi and Jinx wanting to love Silco. If so, this scene could've been expanded into another internal conflict of "Kill obstructions to Silco's plans/Vi would never want me to kill." But she doesn't feel any remorse in the action, she doesn't feel the "I shouldn't have killed her" that Vi-idolizing Powder would. It's possible that this is conditioning from Silco, that during the timeskip he convinced Jinx into his mentality of "Death and suffering don't matter, just achieve your goals at all costs," but the memories of Vi that the firelight girl kicked up probably would've been enough to kick her brain partially back into "I want to love Vi" and disrupt Silco's conditioning. Again, this doesn't happen, it seems like she just doesn't even notice. And not noticing the death of a seemingly innocent person, at your own hands, is undeniably the sign of a villain. No matter the answer, a very fun question to analyze. I enjoyed the change in perspective.
Jinx is my favorite character in the show too by a good bit (and one of my favorite characters period) and personally I read her as an anti-villain. Probably the most complex, sympathetic anti-villain I have ever encountered in fiction. I joked in a tumblr post that never have I encountered a character so obviously a villain on paper, but one that I am so emotionally unable to regard as a "villain" as such. She consistently does things that morally I don't agree with, but her characterization, backstory, scenery-chewing charisma, etc. is such that I can't help but root for her. It's wild.
@@schnee1 Actually upon further reflection I retract part of what I said. I actually don’t really morally disagree with most of what Jinx did. Like there isn’t a whole lot of difference in my mind between Jinx blowing up enforcers to steal the hexcrystal and a character like Jyn Erso blowing up storm troopers to steal the Death Star plans. Also, even against Ekko and the firelights, Jinx only ever fights in self-defense (that we’re shown). The only time I think Jinx strayed into full villain territory was when she kidnapped Caitlyn and attempted to emotionally manipulate Vi into killing her. But even then, she ended up leaving Caitlyn alive so…. But still I think “anti-villain” is the best way to describe her.
Good analogy to killing storm troopers, I totally hear that. Even with the Caitlyn thing, on paper it was villainous, but it's soo tied up with her trauma and her neuroses about family that its hard to blame her. Especially with it being so clear that she didn't want Caitlyn dead specifically, she just was desperate for some sign that Vi loved her, and her trauma pushed her towards enacting this messed up ultimatum. Bad for sure, but villainous is questionable.
@@schnee1 Also she's blasted out of her mind on magical crack at the time too lol But yeah I just meant the Caitlyn thing is the only decision Jinx makes that definitely crosses the line for me, even though there are clearly extenuating circumstances. Even blowing up the council (I definitely think the rocket was a conventional explosive not like a nuke) is a perfectly justifiable decapitation strike on a hostile occupying power (even though personally I dont want Mel, Viktor, Jayce, or even Caitlyn's mom to die)
@@Kosomaddo I have seen some people saying that bridge scene was evil of Jinx part, but then I watched the scene again and the only reason that Jinx made that mess was because Vi returned to save Caitlyn that was in trouble with Marcus, in there were a lot of enforcers, Vi would be capture for sure, in a way Jinx saved Caitlyn and Vi and Ekko.
As for whether Jinx is a hero but not in the modern definition but classic. She is more like a Greek hero her flaws and her strengths are great, but she will be all over the moral spectrum.
It does kinda make sense to compare her to Greek Heroes bc a lot of the time they also have trauma. Of course their morals are very interesting could be more good or bad or gray
The whole show has the feeling of a Greek tragedy, where the characters fatal flaws, and their unreliability to overcome them, cause and sustain a butterfly effect that ultimately leads to disaster
Fun perspective swaps! I definitely lean towards the "Jinx is a victim turned villain" perspective, but I cannot deny that they frame her in a semi heroic light at times. Part of the genius writing for Arcane. Nothing is certain and everyone is to blame. Cannot wait for more!!
I absolutely love Arcane. No matter how many times I watch it or how many videos I watch about it, I always come back to it. Such a fantastic show, can't wait for season 2.
If I had to choose, I'd say villain but...even that doesn't feel right. There's a reason why in the game she's called 'the loose cannon'. Every time she kills, it feels like a knee-jerk reaction more than anything else. A crow startles her, so she shoots it. A girl with pink hair brings back bad memories, so she shoots her (like you pointed out in another video). Her father dies and she has a rocket launcher at hand, so she fires it. It really feels like ever since she accidentally killed Mylo and Claggor, she's become indifferent/desensitized to the act of killing At no time during the show did I get a feeling that Jinx cares about Zaun. Honestly...thinking about it now, she doesn't seem to (really) care about anything or anyone. When she thinks Vi is playing her, she prepares to shoot her. When she thinks Silco betrayed her, she kidnaps him and (I'm pretty sure) prepares to kill him. She craves acceptance and recognition, and I have no doubt that she genuinely loves the person that gives it to her but...it's temporary. She gives a very literal definition to 'I love you to death' And yes, of course this is a result of her trauma. But that's an explanation, not an excuse. I get the whole 'hero introduction' thing but I also want to point out the scene minutes before that. She's so chaotic that people are literally terrified of being in the same room with her. You don't get that sort of reputation overnight Oh also, given that Jayce and Viktor are in the room, I'm pretty sure the rocket will just cause a normal explosion. I know people suspect Mel might be able to shield the people around her or whatever, but I doubt it. My estimate is a few buildings max
@@mrkyurem5499 Thank you ^^ I'm fine with that, I just find it a bit weird. We already had a big revelation that Mel is from Noxus. Having a second big revelation that she's a mage, or at least uses magical items, seems like a bit much. But we'll see
Great thoughts, you're totally on point about the knee-jerk reaction characterization. I'd say there are even signs that she's like this before killing milo/claggor/vander. I also noticed recently that in the scene at the end of ep3, when she comes out and sees Vi with Vander's body and learns what she did, she doesn't react with horror. Vi asks her "Why did you do this?" and instead of saying "I wanted to help save Vander!" she shouts "Why did you leave me?" Could all be shock and trauma etc, but knowing what she becomes makes me wonder if she's just so indifferent that she only gets upset once she realizes that Vi is angry and might abandon her because of this. Interesting to think about.
@@schnee1 her unnatural reaction to the death of Vander and her friends is indicative of the issue that classifies her as a villain: Her motivation. Her actions are always driven by inwardly focused desires: She wants love, approval and acceptance. Everything Jinx/Powder does is about herself; as soon as she thinks someone she cares about isn’t going to give her what she wants she is ready to dispose of them the same way she does everyone she doesn’t care about. You know why Silco will ALWAYS win in her mind going forward? Because he gave her his undying love and approval right before SHE killed him. It’s something she will always have now that can never been taken away. And because her desire for that approval was purely selfish, it will always serve as an endorsement of her villainous behavior. If her motivation was not so selfish she would be prone to self-reflection and question how her behaviors ended the life of someone she cared about. She ended the man’s life, literally. Instead, because all she cared about was the love and approval for her own sake this act of destruction gave her a gift that can never be revoked.
@@schnee1 The way I see it, she mostly went there to prove that she can be useful. I'm pretty sure saving Vander was just an afterthought. Which is also why the moment she sees Vi, the first thing she mentions is that her monkey bomb worked, instead of asking if Vander and the others are ok. Because that's what's most important to her. Which makes sense, because she's just a kid In her mind death is something only the evil enforcers and other bad people can cause. It probably never even crosses her mind that her bomb will kill anyone. Because the first time those crystals exploded, she didn't see anyone get hurt. So maybe she assumed it was safe to use, despite the destruction it caused the first time @Giotis Filopanos this is very true, I completely agree
Jinx definitely agreed with Silco's dream of a free Zaun. Back when she was still Powder she said something along the lines of "imagine what everyone in the Lanes could do if we fought back". Vi too, actually. If it weren't for Vander's influence and the fact that Silco killed him, both sisters would have went right along with Silco and his goals.
@@Simon-A.-Tan nope. If that were true, he'd be as flashy and ostentatious about the chem barons he works with. He works from a dingy office above a bar in the Lanes, whereas they spend their wealth on topside penthouses and can no longer stand the air in the fissures.
@@optimisticnihilist3417 What has being flashy got to do with it? Look at the lanes under Vander and compare them to those under Silco. None of the misery has improved. It just got even worse. That's because Silco doesn't care about the actual Zaun and it's inhabitants. To him, Zaun is nothing but a concept that's an extension of himself; an identity which he associates with and thus has to be acknowledged as a force by the outside world. In other words; it's a nation that needs to have power so that HE can feel powerfull. When you can have that, who cares about showing off flashiness? His concept of Zaun beats all of that flashiness as something to "show them all" with. That last(ing) line.... That's the essence of Silco.... as well as Sevika: they want to lash out at and/or gain respect from those (in Piltover?) whom they feel in some way belittled by. Sevika more specifically comes off as anti-Piltover rather then pro-Zaun. Vander was pro-Zaun. His decisions were motivated by concerns for the Zaunites. Ekko can be seen as pro-Zaun as well. Silco has no quarrels increasing poverty and misery in Zaun even further, tyrannising it's streets ("some were killed by enforcers, most of them by Silco"), and turning it into a corrupt oligarchy of Chembarons. "Zaun" to him is himself; an abstract concept of a nation that serves to fuel his ego, but fails everybody else....
@@Simon-A.-Tan Vander was maintaining an untenable status quo whereby the Lanes were the only (very remotely) safe or prosperous area of the undercity. That was achieved by an under-the-table deal with Piltover's enforcer's that let Vander maintain his little fiefdom in exchange for keeping undercity criminals out of Piltover. Look how quickly the "safety" of Vander's Lanes got upturned because a few children caused an accidental explosion (because they are forced to rely on burglary for subsistence I remind you) and the council needed to scapegoat them for terrorism. You argue that the undercity under Silco is worse off, but I'm not entirely sure that's true. Even if it were I'd argue that Silco is playing a long game and hedging the misery and addiction of one generation against the sovereignty and freedom of all future generations. If you're going to point out Silco's body count then I'll point out that the man was preparing to instigate a rebellion, and first had to consolidate power in order to present a united front in the face of Piltover's forces. This means gang warfare and bringing the factions of the undercity to heel either by force or enticement. Also, you can't forget the numerous allusions to Vander's own body count which he accrued "building" the lanes. All this is to say that the situation in the undercity was untenable and Vander's way wasn't working. The Zaunites are definitionally second-class citizens, and if that was to change, then control of Zaun had to be wrested away from Piltover. Lets not forget that in the end, Silco's way DID work. The council voted for Zaunite sovereignty, and it was all on the back of Silco and Jinx's actions. Of course Jinx went and screwed that up in the final scene, but that's kind of irrelevant.
Even though the story explains how they fell apart, season 1 is more Jinx’s story than Vi‘s Season 1 shows how the adorable Powder becomes the crazy insane Jinx, but Vi hasn’t changed at all For fans who know her, Vi is actually an enforcer, so how did she go from robbing people in Piltover to becoming one of their enforcers? Hopefully season 2 will focus a bit more on Vi’s story
I think it is the story of a villain. A good villain and I definitely see the hero parts. That's the point of the series. All the characters have these hero and villain moments and it's hard to classify because everyone is trying to do what they think it's right and the own story doesn't make it easier either for you to decide if things would have been better or worse if they had taken another path. For me, like with most characters, it's just the story of a gray person that tries to get the better from the worst situation, what has visible consequences that change them little by little. Maybe into someone you could see as a villain or not, depending on perspective.
@@schnee1 One thing I say is that Jinx's introduction is Equally Heroic and Villainous. Because part of how she's introduced ends up feeling like the intro of a Horror movie monster. A beast lurking in the darkness, spreading that darkness and using it to drive fear into her opponents before lurching forward to reveal herself in all her dangerous glory.
@@crcurran I guess the worst thing you can say about her is that she's an ignorant. She hurts Vi and Ekko when she talks sometimes because she doesn't know the truth and doesn't know when it's better to shut up. Like other people in the upper city, she does wrong just by being ignorant about the true problems of their city, but that doesn't make her bad and she tries to help when she realizes. I suppose she doesn't have villain moments, unless you want to count when she acts out of the law to do things her way, like disobeying her superiors and breaking people out of jail that she doesn't really know if are really innocent and harmless. Getting her best friend involved in it without even knowing on top of it xD. I guess you can count those. That's not truely villainous and she does it for a good purpose overall, but she definitely does some questionable things.
@@HimitsuHunter That's right. The part where she come out of the smoke is heroic but the real first time she appears as a grown-up is creepy. Of course they do on purpose like they do with this duality all the season.
I see Jinx as both and neither. In the final scene, I saw Jinx blowing up the council as revenge for making Silco choose, since Piltover had caused the oppression that let to Silco wanting to make Zaun independent. Also, Silco says that “They can all burn” which made me think the action as more Jinx avenging Silco.
Great breakdown. My favorite way to look at Jinx’s place in the story is as the victim of “The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few”. The series starts out with the dilemma of Piltover demanding a sacrifice in exchange for peace, and this same situation happens once more as we reach the final episode. An imperfect world filled with corruption where there ends up being one solution to stop the slaughter of innocents RIGHT NOW, and Jinx is the price. One life to safe thousands. “A simple calculus “ So when I see that last shot, I see the counsel coming to that decision of peace, and then the “lamb” they were going to sacrifice, in that very moment of decision, says: “No. F&@& you!” Jinx, an orphan who had her life dragged through the muck said, the counsel will not take anything more from me. And then she launches a nuke at them. (Which I do believe is surgical enough to only kill the government officials.) That’s the lens I view it through. Hero, Villian, I don’t know… but definitely a person. Happy holidays 🎊
The the achievement of Arcane's storytelling is that it makes you sympathize with each and every character. It shows you that in a normal world there is nothing like pure evil and everyone is trying to maintain an equilibrium while having certain dreams of their own, but life still gets messed up.
What's interesting about Jinx's introduction is that it's a villain's introduction (the explosion and the fear of the Firelights) followed immediately by her actual appearance which is, as you said, more heroic.
Hero or villain, she's undoubtedly a tragic figure. I know someone who... even right now is facing a situation where they've managed to adopt their niece away from an incredibly toxic living environment (Not quite Zaun, but the analogy remains) to an environment where she's reunited with family that cares for her, both her aunt and her cousin, after a period of about five years (the time skip). But the trauma of that toxic environment has taken its toll on her, and she is haunted by the ghosts of the past. It has been unbelievably painful for her cousin to come to terms with the fact that she's not the goofy girl she was when they had lived together. To come to terms with the fact that they've both changed in a lot of major ways. I can't tell you how that story ends, because it is still being written, but it is devastating to see it play out. It certainly puts a far heavier impact to the events of Arcane for me.
I'm glad arcane blew up this way and gave channels like yours a chance to really take off. Like, I loved arcane, and obviously I went looking for insightful videos on the subject, but your commentary has been really great on a pretty wide variety of topics and I'm honestly just impressed. EDIT: I think to answer the question, the real defining villain moment got stolen by Silco (ie. attempting to shoot vi, as such, stopping jinx from killing cait), hence, why the hero reading is even still possible. That said, do I think she's a villain? It truly is a difficult one, but I'd say, all said and done, I think she's done enough fairly indiscriminate destruction and murder, that, if we didn't get her backstory or her inner dialogue, I'd say she'd read like a villain. I'm just kinda guessing that, but it feels that way.
Really appreciate the kind words!! :D I like the factor you brought in about considering her without the backstory. It seems biased to have had a whole backstory for this character, but in reality, it probably works the other way. If we had backstories for ALL grey villains, we'd probably have a hard time aligning them similar to Jinx.
I really like how you considered how it would be if she had shot cait or especially Vi. if she had shot vi the choice of weather she could become powder again would be compleatly removed from her and i belive that she would have become a monster that no ones affection could ever again reach. silco's or otherwise- in this way his survival may have even become the death of jinx. and if it were Cait who died im not shure Vi could ever accept jinx as her sister ever again. as it is now, even though jinx is about to destroy at least part of piltover and her only solid support (silco) left dead there still seemes to be a small sence of hope. not that things will ever be the same but that each sister may still have the ability to sympathize with eachother and even love eachother. this being said there have also been some solid uncrossible lines drawn that same night. They may still remain sisters but they now have the motivation to do whatever needs done. even if it means the death and devestation of the other.
I find the charm of Arcane is in my inability to label the characters. All of the characters simply exist in this world with their experiences and motivations.
Jinx and silco was so surprising to me because I really expected him to be an abusive father figure but it was jinx who showed more abusive behavoir. It was honestly so surprising
@@tired_jazz_hands9232 Poor women, can never be responsible for their own deeds, even if they have crazy in their name. She literally says: "Silco didn't make Jinx. You did!" But go on, accuse the only father figure in her life of gaslighting. Even though 'Gaslight' is just another theater play and not a proven psychological technique. It's the man's fault. The bound to a chair shot-dead man did it. Of course!
I.... rooted for VI, all the way through. Jinx's psychosis and dependence issues make people feel apathy towards her, thinking that she had it harder than everyone else. While in truth VI had it just as hard, but her really tough and adaptive personality gives a different impression. Imagine doing everything you can to save and be with the person you love, only to lose them to.... bad circumstances and manipulation, it's heartbreaking.
I disagree, while Vi did go through the same things, I feel extremely sympathetic to Jinx's sufferings. Saying that her mental illness is what makes you feel apathetic towards her, shows your ableism to a huge degree. I feel sorry and solidarity for the way that trauma has broken Jinx. Some people's coping mechanisms are security and safety, like Vi, but others use instability as shield, just like Jinx. "Make them fear you", is a way to protect yourself. In a lot of ways, what Jinx does is self harm, and people who don't understand that, blame her for it.
@@yukiandkanamekuran Let me clarify what I meant, mental illness increases people's apathy towards jinx, but is not the main reason. whereas more practical people like VI who don't show signs of suffering and are very capable of moving on are usually mistaken to have it easy or may seem selfish and carefree.
She killed 2 of her “brothers” and her “father”. Then got blamed and attacked by her only family left, and was way younger than vi. Jinx got it way worse my guy
These kinds of characters are called antiheroes, and Jinx is one of the few that are done right. Usually writers either fail to make them relatable, give them logical motivation or as u have mentioned give them proper arc i.e. character development. When it is done right though these kinds of characters can be incredibly magnetic. Walter White and Tony Soprano are some of the best examples
I strongly feel jinx/powder is an anti hero, yes her actions are that of a villain, however the intention behind them is that of a hero to destroy the corruption that caused her so much pain and suffering that split her family apart killed her parents leaving her orphaned, she's not really a "good guy" but she's also not a "bad guy" we don't always agree with her actions but we can understand and acknowledge where she's coming from and the intent to write the wrongs done to her behind those actions. her entire character and situation is such a strong gray area there really is no right or wrong view as for her hero and villain collide to being one in the same.
I'd almost agree except I don't think her actions are in attempt to make things right or change things for the better, she's purely fueled by abandonment issues, trauma and rage for revenge. She hasn't ulted at the council thinking "this will fix the problem" she just wanted to make them pay. I would still agree that she's an anti-hero tho, or at the very least a very understandable and sympathetic lovable villain.
@@s.k.5845 Idk. Silco and Jinx were planning to bomb the council from the beginning. And since Silco wasn't going to give up Jinx anyway, they were going to do it regardless. She didn't just do it in a moment of anger and depression, she did it as Silco's last wish. the original intention was to still help the people of Zaun and give them a chance at equality.
@@nycto5147 you can definitely see some anger in her while she did it tho, mayhaps it was grief, but the way she screamed told me she got some of that frustration out with it
Arcane is smart enough to always show both sides of the central conflict. The showrunners don't let any character be a hero or villain. Even Marcus, the corrupt enforcer lieutenant and easily the most disliked character in the series, isn't entirely a bad guy. He made a deal with the de facto leader of the undercity (just like his predecessor mind you) in an attempt to avoid and manage conflict. But Silco doesn't honor his end of the agreement by letting Jinx run free in Piltover, causing carefree destruction and getting people killed. The only thing keeping Marcus from going back and killing/arresting Silco himself is that he has a family to protect. And in the end, he doesn't even get a chance to fix his mistakes. Jinx's firelight bombs take away his last chance at redemption.
I don't understand how that point of Marcus as 'the corrupt' enforcer caused him to be the most hated and by wide margins. When he was doing just as you stated: Grayson did. So how does ones corrupt actions feel justified above the other. Especially when push came to shove, Vander didn't uphold his end just as Silco didn't. And at the start Marcus' dealing with Silco was simply to find the culprit(s) of the explosion, no more no less. He continued with the partnership always with his family/daughter in mind similar to but unlike Vander, who we can infere seaked out the partnership with Grayson.
One thing that often gets overlooked about Marcus is that he was supposed to kill Vi, but instead he chose to imprison her and keep that imprisonment off the books to hide her from Silco. Not only that, but... it's no coincidence that his daughter, who would have been a baby in Act 1, has a passing resemblance to Vi. Red hair, blue eyes, freckles. He couldn't kill Vi partly because she reminded him of his own child. I'm not a Marcus fangirl, I just love that this detail is never pointed out, it's just left there as something to notice if you pay attention. It's a testament to the love and care that the animators and writers put into the story.
@@brennakingsbury9657 I find Marcus the most personally selfish in motivations, hence little like for him But I like the take you have on him and the detail you pointed out there, thank you I dont think he is evil either BTW - more inadequate / over his head
I think that Jinx transcends the whole traditional hero villian dichotomy because like what was mentioned in the video we don't know the final outcome of the missile and also because at least in my mind to be truly villanous or heroic you have to be fully aware of your intentions and how what you're doing is serving those intentions for either "good." or "evil." I think it's a strength to the character that she's so gray that you could make an argument for them being heroic and villanous and have the explanation make perfect sense in the context of the story. I love the absolute mess of insanity and moral grayness that Jinx is as a character and I've grown to appreciate her and the story as a whole by watching your videos so thank you 😊
I just think everyone in this show is the hero of their own story and that just shows the complexity of the characters. All of them have deep rooted motives, personalities, and morals (even Mel even though I don't like her gaslight manipulator ways).
Jinx is a villain. I love her character, I love her arc. Her madness is understandable. I rooted for her to redeem herself but nahhh. I still love her tho. It's testament to how they really made this series so well for us to be having this predicament.
What do you mean by "redeem herself"? And what exactly would be redemption for someone like her? Is it redemption from your own sense of morality or the one established in the context of the show? I'm genuinely curious.
@@TheMrblessed well I guess by becoming Powder, choosing Vi or eventually giving herself in, commit some sort of self-sacrifice or sumth like that or go with Vi and get therapy 😅. I really didn't define it thoroughly in my head when I was watching, I just knew I was hoping for her to choose to do something "right". Although, a part of me always knew that wasn't gonna happen. As for my sense of morality, I knew since episode 4 there was no coming back after her committing mass murder. In the last episode, she didn't have to announce herself to be jinx. When she asked Vi to kill Cait in exchange for Powder was what sealed the deal for me. Powder's gone. When I say I love her, I'm not saying I support her actions. I just mean, I love her character design and how she was written especially for a villain.
@@inkubator320 trauma is not an excuse to proactively commit mass murder bruh. It does explain a lot tho and how that's lead her to whatever path she took. And yes, I was hoping for her redemption the same way Vi believed she can still save Powder before she chose to become Jinx even when I know that's what she'll eventually become. And that's just good writing.
Yeah arcane fans drive me nuts but you see this in a lot of fictional media- fans excusing mass murder and truly heinous actions because a character has trauma. Trauma can explain someone's origins or make them sympathetic, but it doesn't excuse their evil actions. Jinx is a villian she has been a villian since the moment she was revealed after the time skip and she killed that girl. she is a mass murderer and a terrorist there really isn't anything you can do to take back murder.
A thought provoking question, posed in an engaging way. In my interpretation of the story, Vi and Jinx are both incarnations of what circumstance has made of them. Tragic heroes. And Silco and Jacye are what circumstance has made of them. Tragic villians. Lots of parallels all around though; sympathetic, mirroring, repeating. Thanks for being a pontificator, for taking the time to pose the dynamic question, and then presenting the material for others to noodle along with you. Introspection is a lost art.
I fail to see how Jacye is in any way a villain. There has to be a certain degree of malicious intent to be a villain, and there is None showing in Jayce in Arcane. (If intent is not necessary, then Powder is a Villian the moment her monkey bomb goes off)
Amazing video I love this hypothetical it’s really interesting. My first watch through I saw Jace’s character arc as a villain arc. Going from hopeful scientist to corrupt politician.
It's not just Jinx, the reason it's so amazingly written is because each of the characters have heroic and villainous tendencies. Most are trying to do good for their faction but all in the wrong way
Good writers can play with the idea of who is really the hero or villain. Or even say it's not that simple or binary. I love all of your videos about Arcane. I love the show but you help me appreciate more.
Arcane is a very strong show, I am a long term Jinx main and fan and before Arcane came out I was wondering what made her this way. But seeing Arcane broke my heart and made me feel conflicted as the way I see it, by the end of season 1 they made her virtually irredeemable. As before yes, she grew up in a world where you fight to survive and as a daughter of a crime lord you also fight as family biz and you grow up with certain ideas but you don't become those ideas by default. And here I believe there could be a Mel parallel, she rejected ways of her warlord family even though it caused her to be banished (also curious to see why you dub her a villain). Jinx's final assault on Piltover wasn't Silco, it was her, even if initially the ideas were Silco's (or Vander's before he saw the destruction). She knows what she is doing and she is now committed to the act, for Zaun or herself. How can you revert or compensate what she had done? Even though yes Piltover leaders (some at least) are not humanitarian at all and only seek personal gain, and Piltover clearly abuses and leeches on Zaun, still not an excuse. I am really curious how do they turn it out in future seasons but I am just afraid that they are setting her up for self sacrifice arc which is definitely not what a mentally ill person who was deprived of love and safety deserves. But here again, excusing terrorists and murderers cause they didn't have the best time and / or mental illness is also a dead end. Ekko is fighting for Zaun and he is much more of a hero than Jinx. So I am very curious but also afraid what will they do for her, i rly doubt there will be "jinx/zaun gets a therapist" plot line and more likely "wrong people pay for the sins of their environment" line [she should, but not her alone] so let's see. Sorry for word vomit, pretty sure no other comment section would willingly house this ahahaha
@@Алексей545-т6б well we also do know that as of time in LOL Zaun is actually independent and Jinx has her head so yeah, curious what happens between end of s1 of arcane and LOL's present and whether Jinx's actions led to Zaun's independence somehow (even if not directly).
2:45 You've jumped off the deep-end there. You can say that Jayce is partially responsible for the explosion that kills Mylo and Klaggor only in so far as he failed to take necessary precautions to safeguard the dangerous substances he was holding in his apartment. But you can't blame him fully for it - Powder chose to make a weapon out of it, knowing what happened previously. Powder then chose to employ it in the factory. Jayce didn't tell her how to create a weapon out of it, and he didn't create a weapon of his own using the substance at that point in the story. You can't blame Jayce for what Powder chose to do. Jinx is, at best, an anti-hero. You can rightly say she is responding to injustice, but you can't say that she is acting just herself. She kills far too wantonly without making any effort to ensure that only the truly guilty get hurt.
Yeah but Powder was also a child. I’m not sure at that point she fully understood death or consequences to actions. Her only motivation was to help her family. Jayce as the creator of the tec is in fact responsible because he made it. Without him, it would not exist and could not manipulated in such a way. He knew how dangerous the arcane could be and yet took zero precautions. The most dangerous weapon imaginable was just sitting in his apartment, unprotected.
I know this is old, but seeing how you talk about jinx, about how much you enjoy and love her character is so refreshing for me. I adore jinx, she truly is an amazing character and I love how you laid out this video! Brilliant. Though I have to admit, I’m incredibly stressed for season two in November, I still am excited to see more of her and (hopefully) the epic battle between sisters. What we’ve been waiting for. The writers did an incredible job at making jinx relatable, nuanced and intriguing, all causing the viewer to really be sympathetic and empathetic to jinx’s circumstances and character. Hoping for her to achieve what she wants, to be at peace, essentially: to be victorious. Which is not how the viewer is made to feel for a villain. I’d have to say, while I’ve never looked at her as villain nor hero, she doesn’t fit the typical villain archetype MORE than she doesn’t fit the hero one. Love you, man.
She is a central character to the show. Which is a something to note. One of the closest characters to be a protagonist. So this alone influence cause this create a marge between different perspectives. Of her, other characters, people who watch. I personally still argue pretty surely that she is a villain. If its the morality of her actions, their probably bad results (change is not always good, sometimes revolutions lead to reactionary results) or even rather her motives that seem to be very selfish and egoistic (comes from her mental instability). I do agree though in one statement that was done in the hero segment. And that that people should be able to let go of the past. Powder is gone and never had a chance against Jinx. *But* it doesn't mean she need to embrace Jinx, the part that represent her ego and pain (effectively be inslaved to it, doesn't really different from forcing on herself Powder again just little more honest with the kind of mask her ego uses now). I think she needed to burn the fuck out of both chairs. She neither her ego, pain and insult (Jinx), nor the innocent kid (and the memory of what she did). When she above it she can actually heal herself. But her current state is tragic yet not heroic.
Love this, excellent point about the false dichotomy! Burning the chairs would have been the truly heroic thing to do. That middle path is actually close to Jayce's solution of offering independence to Zaun but it was still tainted by the classic Piltover "but we need you to turn on your own and give us a fall guy"
This is actually pretty interesting. Powder is a past who never would come back, whe can't have the past back no matter how much we want, but Jinx is repressed pain and undeveloped personality, Jinx is not a happy person because instead of face her mistakes his mask the guilt, to be really happy and same again she mut be a different person.
In my reading of the series, it's almost useless to try to assign lables like "hero" and "villain" to most of the characters in this series, but not in the "there are no heroes and villains" pseudo-mature grimdark way that we see a lot in fiction these days. It's that most characters in this show commit acts and hold attitudes that are both clearly heroic and clearly villainous to some degree or another. The people who want to keep the peace tend to want to do so under an oppressive system that is obviously harmful and evil. The people who want to change that system are willing to actively do harm to the innocent in the process of change. The few people who end up wanting to end the oppression without going to the extreme of mass violence against those they want to save end up completely frustrated by those who are willing to do evil things to advance their own agendas (whether those agendas are well intentioned or not). Arcane is a story about the realistic difficulty of "doing the right thing" when "the right thing" isn't even all that clear, and powerful people are willing to hurt, maim, and kill to get what they want. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but that doesn't mean that you don't try; you try, fail, learn, and try again. The most tragic heroes and villains in this series are the ones that botch that "learn" part (like Vi in particular).
I think, the point of Arcane is, that these measures don't make sense. Singed does villainy stuff, but has a point, Viktor sympathyses with him for surviving (and we know, he becomes evil) but it's Jayce who builds weapons. Silco is the main villain, but achieved a better living for most of the under city. Still a great video and I really like your point.
I agree with all these points except for Silco improving the lives of the people of the undercity. Crime lords ruling over them and streets flushed with shimmer don't exactly sound ideal. Still, their conditions were horrible before too. I think this is is something that hasn't been properly shown. On one hand the undercity has become more lively, on the other hand you have children working in shimmer factories.
@@kristynab.6539 Silco terms in peace treatment could improve lifes of Zaun in near future. That was his endgame and the only reason it became possible is because his crime Empire became to strong to deal with it by force
I think that under Silco, you had a rise for those at the top. Shimmer made whole slums in the deepest darkest parts of the Undercity that had never been that bad. For the Chem-Barons and those who serve them, life was good, for the rest it wasn't. Under Vander, the conditions seemed to be more evened out. If anything, Silco's Zuan was a just a reflection of Piltover before, they had their own council that cared about their own interests over the rest, caring only for profit. Zaun under Silco was bright, but it was also burning out, like lets all party, and not care. Vander's it was more together, while more muted the life, there was a better sense of community.
@@SultanFilm Yep. But under Vander protection Zaun was weak. Marcus could come in the Last Drop, humiliate Vander in front of his people, grab his daughters to the jail and walk away in one piece. . On other hand - shimmer is nessery evil. The way to gather power and influence. Make Piltover to recognise Zaun as equel. Then Silco was ready to stop shimmer productin in exchange of independece, free trade and exit to Hexgate. THAT could drasticly improve people of Zaun lifes
@@Алексей545-т6б Free trade and access to the hexgate was for the chembarons, not the people. Nothing would change for the people of Zaun except that the people exploiting them would be different.
Arcane does not have "Heroes" or "Villains". Arcane has people. People have motivations, lots of them, and it is the interactions of these motivations that drive their behaviours. To some the actions of Jinx are horrifically evil, to others they are awe inspiringly good. She is a demon to some, and an angel to others. I don't think any of the main staple cast, the ones the story focuses on, can be considered heroes or villains. Some more minor characters could be classified in this way, such as most of the council members and Silco's nameless goons, but this is just because we don't know enough about them. We haven't been shown all their motivations for what they do. The story doesn't focus around them, so we don't understand them, so we can't consider their intentions. The real piece that cements Arcane as, in my opinion, the best series ever, is that the characters in Arcane feel organic. We understand Viktor when he acts rashly and goes to see Singed. We sympathise with his drive to do something important in his life, to have a legacy. We understand Silco and how he treats Jinx. He felt betrayed by Vander, so when he sees Powder seemingly abandoned by Vi he is empathetic towards her. He truly does love her, and isn't using her for his own gain - that much is clear from how much trouble she causes him. We understand the motivations characters have, and can see how they think and act based on those thoughts. They are not blanket "Heroes" or "Villains". They are people, like you and I, and they act in ways people do.
I can't say if she's a hero or villain, but I can say her entire arc was inevitable and that's what makes it perfect. I hope that in season 2 we will have a lot more of the main characters develop to a similar point, where you can make a valid argument that they're a hero AND a villain. Right now, we can arguably say that Jayce and Viktor are heroes (despite their dangerous inventions). They're presented sympathetically 99% of the time as they only want to help people. Even when they each kill an innocent person with their inventions, it's completely by accident and they immediately stop what they're doing because the moral cost is too great. HOWEVER we know it's not going to stay that way. So yeah I'm pumped to see those two (and potentially Vi, Cait, Ekko, etc) walk further on the knifes edge between hero and villain
I’m so happy when I see your content in my feed and recommended! Arcane is my favorite show and I love being able to see so many lore explanations, character breakdowns and so much about this amazing show! I don’t have many people in my personal life who have seen this show so it’s awesome to be able to watch a video of someone discussing it so that I don’t feel like I’m thinking about this show in a void. Love this video (Jinx is my second favorite character with Viktor being the first)!! Keep up the amazing work!!
I totally agree. Considering how Powder/Jinx's live unfolded how many of us wouldn't become crazed villains too. Considering her upbringing was by a crime Lord doing bad things would be ingrained in her as normal behavior. Plus how often do we see people get bullied/insulted/abandoned and then we wonder why they become bad guys. Now their choices are still bad but how much of their journey is them and how much of it is society pushing them that direction through abuse. Words have the power of life and death so choose to be kind even when something really bad happens like when Powder kills her friends/family when she was actually trying to save them.
Something I also like is that Jinx is haunted by the voices of her loved ones who she killed. When she fires the missile she hears Silco’s voice and instead of making her feel insecure or weak it’s the empowerment she needs to take that shot and start the war. Whenever Craggor, Milo or Vanders voices spoke to her they whispered about how weak she was but Silco’s voice even in death is empowering her and telling her how strong she is which is what he did in life.
Schnee, you know better than to not have enough bombs to satisfy literally everyone’s favorite character and Riot’s original darling while she’s trying to make the thingy-ma-jig work. No seriously, I’ve noticed that a character that is the favorite of a studio or author, etc., will usually become the audience’s fave too because the creator(s) love and care for that character just seeps onto their work and the audience can feel that love and care
Haha how lucky we are to have a show so densely packed w/ so many interesting themes. I love the structure of your video essays: from the timestamps, to the explicit terms/definitions/frameworks. It really helps in navigating the complex depths of these themes / characters. Though, as you said, sometimes the questions posed are more easier/more interesting than arriving at an ultimate answer!
Also, to me she's undeniably a villain. She's also my favorite and I _do_ root for her to come to some sort of healthy self-peace, but ultimately she _is_ a killer who is actively working against peace. To me even when you talked about her as a "hero" I couldn't really buy seeing her council bombing as a good thing, even if the council were solely made of the most corrupt politicians in the world it wouldn't be justified to me. I do find her very sympathetic and well-developed, and she's, again, my favorite character, but to me there's still absolutely no question that she's _not_ a hero at this point. You make a good point about her introduction admittedly, but to me I see it more like the Vader scene in Rogue One, a powerful villain making quick work of the heroic soldiers. I do have to admit to kind of rooting for her then, though, if only because we hadn't gotten a good look at how her older self is yet and not yet knowing for a fact that the Firelights were good guys themselves.
The rocket is composed of the same yellow and green fluid that is in her grenades. So I suppose the rocket launcher is powered by hextech to give it range/ but the explosive rocket is not itself hextech.
In my opinion Jinx is definitely a villain. Dont forget that she shot a girl in the back just becouse she looked like her sister. In her introduction she mercilessly murdered a few people, and after that her killcount skyrocketed. How many children will have their childhood ruined becouse she murdered one or both of their parents during a routine bridge guard duty? The true hero of the opressed is Ekko. He was trying to fight the opressors, but only using non-lethal ways. In the same time he was trying to help his fellow Zaunians. On the side of Piltover only true hero is, again in my opinion, Caitlyn. Her whole life she was unaware of how bad is the situation, but when she found out, thanks to Vi, she genuinely tried to make a change in the best way she knew how.
I would argue she is purposely not a villain but she is definitely not a hero she isn’t any of the easy boxes you can put people in these are people they make choices these choices aren’t always good or bad and just because you make bad choices doesn’t mean your a bad person or a villain.
She shoot a girl because she attack Silco cargo. Thats all. They try to kill her just the same as she try to kill them. Jinx was better at this and Fireflights are the bunch of losers. Just to remember - this fireflights wanted to kill Vi(stab her with spear) in ep 6. Vi - girl they first time seen in their lifes. If Ekko did not stop them or made it too late - Vi was dead for sure. Good guys for sure (sarcasm) . And what exactly Ekko could suggest to Zaun? Could he provide it citizenes with work like Silco? Or could he bring Zaun on equel terms with Piltover like Silco did? No. Ekko can do nothing. Just like Caitlyn - ignorent princess without real power to change things any better
I agree. There's villains and hero's on both sides of the city. The ends don't justify the means. Jinx is a villain because her quest for equality caused way too much damage.
Ekko doesnt has a plan for Zaun future, he only made support group for addicts, theres is no more than that. And the firelights do kill, Ekko had to stop one of them from finishing Vi off.
@@Алексей545-т6б In ep. 4 firelights did not try to kill Jinx, they tried to catch her in theese crystals things. Later in ep. 6 one of them was trying to kill Vi, becouse from his perspective Vi was working with Jinx, who murdered their friends. Im not saying that Ekko's and Caitlyn's methods were super effective, im saying that they were trying to do something else than flood the streets of Zaun with dangerous drugs.
I agree, jinx’s character story is absolutely incredible. It’s just so relatable and like you said, when she lights up the blue torch for Vi we all wanted what was best for her and for her to go back to powder. And when she ultimately falls lower and lower we all feel very sad for her
I know I’m late. But when you were saying that jinx is both hero and villain and how not many characters do this, it reminded me of one. Eren jeager from attack on Titian. He is one example of a character who LITERALLY was turned from a hero to a villain, he was a villain but at the same exact time a hero.
What Jinx is really depends on your perspective. We even see that in the show, and will probably see more of it. To some she will be a villain, an unhinged killer. This will likely be how Piltover sees her. Zaun, on the other hand, will probably view her as a hero who boldy fights against opression and makes topside pay for their crimes. Her final act is the embodiment of that. Yes, the council was willing to make peace, but only if Jinx was turned over to them. Silco was not willing to do that, and he was willing to fight for Jinx even at the cost of his dream. And with Silco dead, the only person left to continue his mission was his daughter, Jinx. That is why she fired the rocket, to continue the fight for Zaun. Topside will view it as an unsolicited attack as they were willing to make peace, while the undercity will see it as the first blow in the fight for freedom. On that note it will be interesting to see how Caitlyn and Vi deal with this. With Silco dead, Vi, and by extension Caitlyn, know her better than anyone. Vi understood that Powder became Jinx in order to survive without her, and Caitlyn learned just how much Jinx had lost due to Piltover's oppression. Yet they are going to be forced to opposite sides, with Caitlyn on her way to becoming the sheriff of Piltover and Vi making herself an enemy of Silco's faction after helping in the Shimmer raid. I can't wait to see where it goes.
This. Also nobody in Piltover even bother talk with any undercity representative in council. They just decide somthing from position of power. They will never consider undercity equal without war. I guess it just bite them back.
There is no way Zaun sees her in a positive light. Even the people under Silco power dosen't like Jinx, she used to shoot enemies and friends alike in her jobs, she was just protected by Silco so they can't defend from her, in the bar is show that everybody fears her chamges of mood because they know that Silco protects her. People who know Vander sees her as traitor and people who just want to work and kept livind would be infutiated and in danger becuse Jinx caused a war. Jinx never cares about a cause she cared about pleasing Silco but now he is dead and despite of making that shoot in his hoor she is not a freddom fighter at all but a lose end.
A thought : She didn't necessarily avoid hurting civilians with the bomb. She just specifically targeted the council. That's where it all concludes, for now. Edit: She's also not a hero nor a villain. She's a victim, of her own mind and an absolutely horrifying chain of unfortunate events, that just keep falling on to her.
Here i am i another video of you, and again, i'm loving it. I really like your theories, explanations, and thought about arcane. You are providing me too much info i can use to create wonderfull things and i wanted to say thanks You, you're AMAZING and keep going💕🔥
I think what you said about us all wanting thing to work out for Jinx is very true. While I don't agree with the hero/villain labels (especially in this show), I spent the entire show hoping that Jinx and Vi would find a way to reunite and move forward together.
I think jinx is both, depending on who's viewing her- both inside and outside the series. It really depends where you sympathise and where the characters come from, what they grew up around and what they view to be good. Jinx is zaun, jinx is chaos, and you are okay with that or you arent. And theres a side where jinx is neither/both, where you understand just how complex she is, or the character's understanding that, where shes a hero to somw and a villain to others. But thats just my take idk
Dude this video is on fire. You made your point so clearly and admirably. I completely love this video and you just earned a sub from me. Not that it matters much in the grand scheme, but still. I look forward to seeing more of your videos.
I see her as a Hero, but not ur typical kind. More in regards to what needs to be, and perhaps she is a bit of Karma herself. A form of Anti Hero, tho not trying to be a hero or for anything truly selfish, she acts less on greed and more on Heart. She is PURE EMOTION and that's what dictates her actions & literally nothing else. She is pure "Right Brain" but w the knowledge & intellect for making tech from the "Left" (I know that the brain isn't literally like that, but im using this to best explain her as best I can). This is why she's seen as "chaotic", someone has to be I suppose, when literally every single other person in the entire series is PURELY LEFT BRAINED & very little else. She sorta _has_ to be the way she is, she has to carry it all. But it as tho she wasn't already uh... well, whatever she was, taking away the ONLY PERSON in her life that truly loved/accepted/understood her - SIlco, away, even if it was by her own hand... well.. now there's no one to keep her feet grounded. He was the only one that could do that, her only voice of reason. Now there's no reason. Just pure emotional trauma personified and everyone responsible is going to pay (for what they did to that innocent little girl/Powder). But yeah. A twisted form of Anti Hero imo. Capitalism (& Patriarchy) is the root of all evil, so her killing off the 1% imo is never a bad idea. I hope she becomes the new Queen of Zaun or whatever & makes the Pigs Pay. Maybe... in a weird way maybe she might actually help her people and do right by them? Making sure no one goes hungry or cold at night. (-also apologies to animal pigs, you don't deserve to be associated w such scum)
I really like Jinx as the focused and determined character she is at the end of season 1 and I hope they keep moving her forward like this. It'd be a shame if they made her revert to how she was at the beginning of the 2nd act.
My big worry is that Season 1 was the result of 6 years of development, and Season 2 is undoubtedly less. I have full faith in the Arcane writers, but I hope the storytelling is as tight and exacting throughout future seasons despite the time pressure.
@@schnee1 The writing is very good. I keep noticing new things each time I watch through. In the last scene of the season, when Vi is telling her that they can just leave, she hears a voice and responds "No she isn't saying that", then when Caitlyn and her are facing off the voice whispers that "it's time to leave them" right before she pulls up her gun (edit: she doesn't even fire) The voices were trying to convince her to commit suicide, but after the death of Silco and his affirmation of her current self, the voices go away.
@@schnee1 I don't think the actual writing was necessarily more condensed for S2 than it was for S1. They didn't actually write the first season until 3 years ago, despite there being 6 years of development time. They also planned a lot of the big story moments and resolutions when they wrote S1. The scripts for S2 are already finished, but I don't have the impression that they were rushed, considering that we're talking about writing 2 nine-episode seasons in the span of 3 years. Hopefully that makes you feel a little better about it?
@Brenna Kingsbury thanks for the info! can i ask where you saw this? i was just watching an interview with alexis wanneroy the lead animator and he did mention that s2 has been in production for multiple years already, which is encouraging
@@schnee1 Some of the info comes from one of the writers, Amanda Overton. She shared that she wrote episode 5 around 3 years ago, and that the big story beats for the series were planned with S1. I believe the info that S2 has been written for a while also came from her, and is corroborated by the interview you saw. I have the impression, given the huge budget for this series and the overall quality of work that came out of it, that this was perhaps not a typical writer's room and that they were given a lot of time and freedom in order to really get things right. However, the animation team also added a lot of really thoughtful moments and elements that were not in the scripts, i.e. they are also storytellers in their own right, so if they feel rushed in making S2, that actually could have a negative effect on the story. For example, this same writer shared that the animation team added Vi caressing Caitlyn's face on the bridge and had Caitlyn echo this touch when she and Vi were on the bed, both of which are actually pretty important moments between those characters. Vi winking at Jayce in episode 8 also came from an animator and not from the script. I'm just speculating based on the information I've collected about the show, but I think S1 was so good was because both the writing team and the animation team were just incredibly talented and committed and understood storytelling in their own specialized ways, and both teams were given the time necessary to get it all right and communicate with one another throughout the process. I hope that synergy is able to continue in S2!
It's amazing that everything in the show has duality. Jinx definitely has the most well developed duality in her character but every character has duality. Even singed who doesn't get much development. They really nailed that theme.
Clearly defining a character as "hero" or "villain" its a very simplistic point of view in a story with such cumplex characters, obviously most characters like in real life are just trying to get by and mostly think out of their personal satisfaction. Jynx is just crazy and yeah that is part caused by her childhood but in the end nothing she made was to help or make the world a better place for others, she is just broke and does anything to get attention, her actions cannot be rationalized
2:03 well quite the opposite. The reason Jayce started making weapons WAS because of Jinx and not before Jinx happens. Your point still remains though, fair video
I too like Jinx the most I think its just beautiful and confusing, Eco could bring her her past memories in the present when they started to dance fight. I think if they could bring her happy memories, there would be some happy moments (for me the dance was a happy moment cuz she who haven't felt not psycho positive feelings for a long time looks so happy is just heart warming.) And in my opinion Powder had some weird mind cracks since before the diamonds dropped and she understood how they worked and decided to help her sis, she was going crazy so she may have had trauma that we have not seen where it came from. uwu so before "Twice" Vi? Left her she may have been left alone before. //usually I'm wrong though// ^^"
I personally believe that arcane has such a complicated plot line that hero/villlain doesn’t exist unless when talking from a specific point of view. In general however all characters have moments that make them heroes and moments that make them villains to someone else’s point of view
I think I will go with Villain, because villain fighting villains is still a villain. She killed to many innocent people during this season that I can't look at her as a hero. Also she wanted to kill Caitlyn (multiple times ), Ekko and even her sister ( on the bridge ). When a hero tries to kill other heroes for selfish reasons, do we still consider him as a hero?
Everyone's the hero of their own story and to the perspective of those around them. And did Jinx really want to kill Ekko? She pulled the pin and left it next to her. Every other time we see her attach/launch it at those she deemed opposition. And as we've seen she has yet to fire directly upon Caitlin or Vi(only as a means to physically cause them to separate: on the bridge, which she allowed them to walk away from). Plus she's always taken conversations before her mental state devolves. In the dinner scene Jinx wanted Vi to make her(Caitlin) go away. That doesn't necessarily mean kill her, it could easily indicate Jinx wants Vi to be accepting of what she's become and to not replace her with Caitlin(if you look at it she has similar attributes that align with the way Powder was. Skilled shot, passive nature, and trying to prove herself).
@@jonathanjohnson6727 She almost died when she released that bomb next to herself and Ekko. She was forced to the ground by Ekko so it was her only way to release that bomb. As for the bridge part. Either schnee or other youtuber pointed out that during Jinx firing upon Caitlyn and Vi, Caitlyn actually wanted to cover Vi with her body and Vi pushed her away at the last second and that's the only reason why they weren't hit. When they walked away Jinx had Ekko to fight first before she could follow them. She lost her fight with Ekko and that's the reason she didn't follow them. At the dinner she put the gun in Vi's hands and told her that she can have Powder back if she makes Caitlyn go away. Jinx has two problems with Caitlyn: 1) that she is Enforcer and 2) that she stealing Vi from her. Everytime we saw Jinx had her mental breakdowns Caitlyn is main focus of her hate and anger. She created this image in her had where Caitlyn is a devil, monster that is corrupting her sister and someone that is partly responsible for her pain and what she has become.
@@mesjarch Vi did push Caitlin away from trying to jump on top of her. But that doesn't change the trajectory of the shots were placed in the center of both(just because Caitlin instincts told her protect Vi doesn't mean the shots are done so with death in mind or as the goal). She still had her minigun right? It's long range. So, Jinx could have kept firing if she wanted(had she completely lost control like we saw in ep 4 when protecting the shimmer shipment) yet she switched to her pistol. The actions in this sequenced later parallels the final scene(allowing Silco to fire at Vi or protect her). Deep down she wanted to end the cycles until the form/dosage of shimmer gave clarity to her developed mentality and entrenched mental state. JInx grasped that Vi has changed, just as much as she has.
Weirdly I was rooting for silco the whole series. Wonder if he had been motivated by the destruction of piltover instead of independence if it would have been different.
What she is is a real leader of war, if your looking at it from Piltover she a villain no question but from zaun she is finally standing up and doing something. In real war with a few exceptions people are not black and white there is a reason they are fighting. Her whole character reminds me of the time that both sides in the civil war sung Christmas carols together and then had to fight the next day. She was like a solider who’s home was destroyed and now she’s the one leading the attack.
What is striking about Powder/Jinx is the lack of remorse for the collateral damage that she causes. As Powder she literally killed almost everyone who loved her. And yet, she still felt entitled to the love and support of her sister, to whom these newly-dead people meant even more. At her moral core, Powder is just a terrible person. She's not the only character who causes catastrophes through negligence and poor decisions, but everyone else at least feels guilty. Powder is more like "Sure, I killed your family and ruined all hope for our city, but how dare you withdraw - even for a second - your love for me? I deserve acceptance even before the dust clears and the blood dries, and I don't have to do anything to atone or fix in myself!" That's Powder while she's still Powder - a moral monster. She kills people and her worries are "Aw crap, I hope these killings aren't going to downgrade my own lovability!" She later tells Vi that it was Vi who made her Jinx - completely failing to consider how Powder's own actions may have contributed. She's ready to blame anyone but herself. What's amazing is that Silco is there to provide her the love that she demands but does nothing to deserve. Schnee helped me realize important stuff about Silco and now I think he's my favorite character. Silco is a good influence on Powder, and he performs the superhuman feat of sincerely loving her, though Powder is incapable of loving anyone back. Sure, she was always able to cling to people affectionately and pathetically, but love is something very different. It's not been made clear because we don't see the fallout of the last scene, but under the influence of Silco, Jinx might actually have become able to act unselfishly, to care about something broader than just her own feelings and her need for validation. We'll see. Because Powder/Jinx is so fragile, childlike, insecure and clingy, she is perfectly designed to set off our own instincts for affectionate nurturing. These instincts can easily blind us to the fact that she is incapable of reciprocating these feelings, that Powder is addicted to feeding on our love but cannot give any love back.
watching this after the official trailer for arcane season 2 and I love how it seems like they're playing into the hero/villain paradox in how people perceive jinx. the poster vs the painting of her is the perfect paradox in how her actions can be perceived
She's, for once, neither a villain nor a hero. Like. Usually shows take a solid stance on which on a character is. Vander is an old hero, no matter how dark his past. Silco is a villain no matter how understandable his motives. But Jinx? She's not given a distinctive characterization either way. We are shown the tragic outcomes of her actions but we aren't given reason to denounce her.
Actually , i do know that if she is neither villain nor hero but in the long run when we watch other coming out seasons hopefully in 2022 we could decide otherwise i don't know JINX is so complicated , but PTSD that left from her family and definitely form her sister is traumatic . From my perspective , in the season 1 VI didn't really make a promising effort to bring her sister back , sometimes words cannot describe what you feel instead you need to take an action. So what do you think guyz?
I started watching this series because of a Henry Cavil interview and it came up this was a great show to watch. I went into watching knowing nothing I dont even play video games- a couple times I did get a little bored honestly. I think there was just alot to process also, because I was watching inattentively. I finished the series in 2 days and I am now on my 3rd round of watching the series again. So 3 times now have I watched every episode. What I really love and admire about this series is they took 10 month to complete a episode total 6 years of working on the series. Every detail is so important and so thought out. It's almost too much to get it all on one watch. I think this is a series a person needs to watch multiple times because there is new things to discover each time. Truly brilliant I am a fan.
![Twenty One Pilots - “The Line” (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Music Video]](/img/1.gif)
My answer to the question: So let’s rip apart the arguments I made in the vid 😅...
I think the definition of hero/villain is where a lot of the conflict comes from. There’s two sets of definitions of these terms (at least): irl hero/villain and narrative hero/villain. The irl hero/villain has to do with morality, narrative hero/villain has to do with story objectives. The confusion comes because these two standards often overlap, and jumping back and forth between the two standards was what allowed me to make arguments that sounded consistent (but weren't) for each side of the question.
But if you’re ACTUALLY consistent, the picture is a lot clearer. To go back to the three story pillars I mentioned -- plot, character, and theme -- those each have a hero definition associated with it.
--> Hero in the plot framework is the one who brings about the external event the story has framed as the “good outcome”: eg saves the day, wins the championship, true love, evil fails, etc.
--> Hero in the character framework makes the inner personal change the story has framed as “the good change”: eg overcomes weakness, feels love again, feels forgiveness, faces fears, proves X to themselves, etc.
--> Hero in the theme framework represents the ideal or the ethical/philosophical change the story has framed as “true/good”: eg violence is not the answer, love conquers all, freedom triumphs over tyranny, etc.
Narratively, Jinx is a villain in the frameworks of plot and character, but a hero in the framework of theme. She brings about war, which is the outcome the story has told us is the “bad outcome”. She embraces Jinx, which is the inner change the story has framed as the “bad change”. BUT she accepts change, which is what the story tells us is the “true/good ideal”. That makes us conflicted about how we see the character.
The second major thing that makes us conflicted is that as far as irl hero/villain, the rest of Arcane’s story is so grey that we have a hard time accepting the story’s labels of good/bad. Maybe Piltover deserves to be overthrown and Zaun SHOULD fight them. How can Jinx be a hero if she murdered people? Perfectly accurate to use hero or villain in that context, but I think it’s on a different track of hero/villain than talking about narrative hero/villain.
I do agree with people saying the hero/villain dichotomy is useless in this show, but what I said above is my understanding of WHY it’s useless here. Usually the two different standards overlap more, and within the narrative definitions, there’s more overlap too (or at least not as much outright contradiction).
Anyway, I’ve loved reading all your opinions as always! Very happy to see such variety.
PS I’ll be uploading an extra video this week (PROBABLY) since my Wednesday one is going to be shorter than I thought. So Wednesday and Friday will be a short each, then Sunday another long vid like usual.
As very often in reality, we do not know if Jinx's decision might be considered heroic (at least from Zauns view - one countries hero is the other ones terrorist), because the story hasn't played out yet, and we will not be able to find out if she really destroyed something that would have led to a positive outcome for Zaun, because that path is lost.
The council deciding to give Zaun formal independence wouldn't have lead to the wealth disparity vanishing and Zaun still being dependent on the scraps that fall of Peltovers table. The council decision might have just lead to a formal independence that could have even made things worse in some ways (e.g. border controls, work regulations for foreign citizens or import taxes). We won't know, because this path is blocked.
Jinx bombing the council might still lead to improving things for Zaun in long run. In humanities history there aren't that many examples of revolutions and people achieving independence, rights and freedom, that did not have a war or violence as a precursor. People in possession of power rarely forfeit that power without a fight. So we have to wait and find out how the writers will continue the story (which will tell you a lot about their moral, ethic and political believes).
Is accepting a bad change a good and moral thing? If I do bad things, wouldnt it be better not to accept this change? In reality we would try therapy, what would also be better for the person itself (being happy without harming others). I still feel like many people in the comment section are looking for excuses why they liked a flawed character, even though there is nothing wrong with that in the first place.
@@tvolz9749 On the contrary, I think it's absolutely necessary to accept the reality of bad change and therapy can be a huge part of that. But acceptance doesn't preclude wanting to improve ourselves.
@@schnee1 So Mel’s magic item has me thinking, unfortunately I don’t know the lore in-depth like others so … I’m sure there’s someone else decrypting.. I would love to hear your thoughts because here’s mine (:
I thinking, if we’ve seen Rabadons Deathcap and Liandry’s.. So what if it’s maybe she has something wrapped up in her necklace or somehow it saves her and a few other councillors, Jayce then upgrades the item to further protect her so we could do an early development of …
Guardians Angel? Locket of Solari? NullMagic Mantle? Zeke’s Convergance? Or when searching a Sigil she’s shares with whoever “Rell” is ???
Jinx is both HERO & VILLAIN. She's a MENACE to Piltover society and VIGILANTI to Zaun. Jinx is an ECO-TERRORIST she fight's on the behalf of the poor people of Zaun with extreme methods. Think about if the people of Piltover hate the people of Zaun because they are poor and they also don't care about what they are doing to the people of Zaun. So...Jinx plays the part of both hero and villain it's all about perspective.
The most profound point you made in this video is that we root for Jinx and she made a “hero entrance” despite not actually being a conventional hero.
To me Jinx introduction felt more epic champion than traditionally heroic, and felt aimed at the gamers of LoL mostly who know her moves :-)
Idk, didn't root for her at any point since time skip, enjoyed immensely when my man Ekko beat her up. Unlike all other characters she annoyed the living fuck out of me. Her writing was perfect and I wouldn't have it be any other way, but holy fuck do I dislike her.
@@xentiment6581 interesting because she’s gotta be the most popular character of the series. The fact that you acknowledge that she’s written well though is great, I totally respect your opinion because of it.
To be honest though I do agree that she can be a little annoying. I guess that’s just because of her personality though
@@ojw-1 she is not annoying i respect ur point though her character is perfectly written for me if jinx/powder isn't written like that then her character would just like other generic type of hero/villain/anti-villain whatever that is and that would be boring plus she has mental unstability and lots of other stuff too so I get why she's like that.
@@missa4112 yeah her character is written extremely well and I wouldn’t have it any other way. I think I should specify that a character can be annoying but still greatly written.
I love how you pointed out that Vi was made to look like she abandoned Powder, that point has been verrrryy overlooked by the community.
YES like ofc its absolutely not a tragic misunderstanding, Vi DID physically assault her child sister and then ran and left the sobbing bleeding child next to the corpse of their adopted Father, but Vi's intention was NOT to abandon her, it was to breathe a second and gather head bc she has enormously toxic anger issues. But its important to note that Powder has clearly defined attatchment issues and Vi shouldve known leaving her in that situation would KILL Powder. But Vi did not willingly abandon Powder long term, that was Marcus.
Vi is absolutely guilty of a lot of things regarding how she treats Powder and Jinx, and later in the series she DOES abandon Jinx, more than once. But as far as episode 3, people need to stop accusing her of abandonment. There's plenty to be mad at her about without twisting facts lmfao.
Nope. Vi did abandon Powder but then had second thoughts when she realized that she left her in front of the people that just tried to kill herself. Is it okay for a husband to beat his wife in the middle of the street, leave her there and then all the sudden realize he made a mistake and go back and get her? No! Vi is abusive and just because she loves Power, doesn't mean that what she did was excusable. This is typical domestic violence and predatory behavior.
@@misteree78 I think that is a bit harsh of a sentence for a traumatized child herself (Vi was 15) it is good judgement to remove yourself from a situation when you realize you don't have emotional control to "cool down" so as to avoid violence. Ideally she would have done this before she hit Powder. she was gone for less than 5 minutes (less than 3 really) before she was ready to run and protect her. Honestly her behavior to her sister throughout the first act was well above what can be reasonably expected in her circumstance.
@@misteree78 vi was a kid… you can’t put her on the same level as a fully grown adult. Plus she had a breaking point since everyone she loved died. Cut her some slack.
Vi was a child as well as Powder. How can another child handle the deaths of their friends, and a father figure? BOTH were traumatized. I hate when one character acts stronger than the other, that means they aren't effected. Which is wrong. How could Vi, as a child, know when to leave her sister when she needed some time to think about herself for once? Vi didn't want to abandon Powder cause if she did, Vi would've kept walking and allowed Slico to have her. But she was just a kid. Its excusable because she is a kid that witnessed DEATH. Its not a "Wife and Husband" comparison because those are adults knowing its wrong to do that. Kids don't know how to deal with theirselves in war. If we were Vi, we would be mad at Powder too during literally everyone dying and fire everywhere, emotions burst. Both sisters deserve slack, Powder got basically used by Slico in a way then Vi was locked in years of her own guilt.
"She's a Jinx, but now she can make things go wrong for the people who deserve it."
That line makes me want season 2 so bad
I think literally everyone in this commetn section can't wait for season 2. But who it is who really deserves it? Is it Caitlyn? I mean she almost shot her in the head. Or maby the pink haired girl who tried to escape?
Nobody deserved it though, fr she needs therapy
@@pizzaisminenoucanthaveit.2149 Yes but there are still people who deserve it
@@Ufos1984 Caitlyn was acting in self-defense. The pink girl was working for Ekko, so I highly doubt she deserves it. Honestly, the only group of people that ‘may deserve it’ were the six enforcers that she killed, but they were all friends with Caitlyn , so I doubt they deserved it either. Actually, the only person she killed that really deserved it was Slico, he killed innocent people on purpose, and used them and animals as tools for his inhumane experiments.
@@chcbxcbcbxx4571 What i meant was that Jinx almost shot Caitlyn when Cait was tied to the chair, sorry if I was not clear :). But my question was rhetorical, I wanted to point out that Jinx is NOT punishing the people who deserves it, rather hurting whoever comes in her way. She is dangerous and her actions should not be glorified. And yes, Silco was only one who deserved it, not only becouse of things you mentionet, but also for changing little vulnerable girl into a murderer.
Point of clarification: Vi was drugged, taken, and locked away without charge or trial. That’s not being arrested, that’s being kidnapped 😭
For me thats one of the bigest WHY moments in the show like why did Marcus kidnapp her, especially in this situation where he isn't even in a save place to do so. He had to drag her unconcious boddy from the slum (where everyones hostile against the enforcers and knows Vi) to a prison island for ... a grunch on her? Since there was no trail he didnt even get any recocognition for catching the ones responsible for the explosion in the upper city
@@NewSchattenRayquaza my assumption about the latter is that he just said they were killed in the explosion on the docks, and my assumption about the former is that he’s an enforcer and in the Undercity a lot of folks seemed ready to give Vander’s kids up and in Piltover he was at that point close enough to the top to not be questioned
@@NewSchattenRayquaza as much as you hate Marcus he was never a killer. He was just tricked into it by Silco. That's why he said "it wasn't the deal" and why he was shaking after he shot Ekko and about to shot Cait. That's probably the first time he ever shot someone.
Do we know there was no fair trial?
@@coolbanana165 no-one directly said that their was no fair trial but Caitlyn did say that Vi didn't have anything on her record, which I think shows that she didn't get a trial at all let alone a fair one because surely they would try to charge her for something if they did, Marcus probably did this so as little people know about Vi being alive as possible.
"Screw the world, screw peace. If you turn me into a monster then you deserve a monster" I think this line best describes who Jinx is now. She's not good or evil, hero or villain, but a embodiment of "Chaotic neutral" literal chaotic.
Yes cause if it was a nuke.. and genocide’ing a whole population like a monster against majority who civilians who didn’t actually effect or play a role.. heat totally chaotic “neutral” ok buddy.. she’s literally “chaotic evil” if indeed that was a nuke… 😂. Fk the world fk peace is literally harmful and directly negative to the well being of all including those that literally played no part in what happened to them.. 😂 aka ur worse then the monsters that made u a monster… if it isn’t a nuke then I’d probably agree.. btw “chaotic neutral “ doesn’t disrupted other opposing groups.. they just resist and don’t bent to it… fk the work and peace is “chaotic EVIL” aka ur removing any threats an possible of threats that could go against ur own views.. 😂 dead pool and death stroke are chaotic neutral.. jinx is not.. so ignore all the above cause her actions bring harm to others innocents include.. she is EVIL and CHAOTIC.. I like her too.. love her character butt she’s a evil nary piece of shit.. not gonna lie to myself and pretend she’s not that “bad” 😂 u would not hold the same view of jinx was irl.. fantasy allows us to make hard exceptions for stuff u would not accept irl.. she’s a nasty bitch 😂
Unless of course you’re like me who believes moral neutrality is an impossibility. But I agree.
@@shovel662 all are impossible.. as I think u might agree.. reality is basically just bunch of spectrums… and the lines we draw on that spectrum are completely arbitrary and only done to create groups/divisions simply cause humans evolved really to see things like that.. it’s beneficial for survival to see who’s one of us and who’s not.. butt I don’t think spectrums come in just lines.. think a sphere and any one point.. like up down left right forward backwards.. we can be all over butt we still would draw arbitrary bubbles with in that sphere simple to know how far or close or above and below us that group is from us if not in our own bubble.. 😂 and ultimately despite it being a good means of survival.. it’s also probably the thing that causes and leads to the most harm.. intolerance racism sexism homophobic etc.. dehumanizing or glorification of ppl/groups even over very minor views.. think Christianity and denomination.. all think they are right and the others wrong.. some actually hate others for being “too” different from their denominational views… personally this is why I’m a humanist.. it’s rooted in science.. it not only doest claim absolute morality nor good and evil.. all is nuances and things are measured by wellbeing.. u literally can’t dehumanize ppl not even “bad/evil” ppl or u by definition can not be a humanist.. again there’s nuances to even that statement… conclusion.. we’re nothing but monkes in shoes and some of us monkes are good at realizing this this we aren’t inherently better or worse then any other monke.. 😂 this room for conversation and proper education IS KING.. out side of just basic general conversation with ppl.. I don’t actually believe in neutral posited negative “emotions” or etc.. reality is a GREY canvas and we humans simply MAKE the colors we paint in it grime brightest colors to darkest .. and try to paint a MEANINGFUL picture that’s good for everyone’s well being.. that’s how I view everything.. lol
Maa'Quchii Oh man not thr overused emoji again “😂”
No, she's evil.
She does a ton of bad shit in the show and only shows loyalty to a man who is a monster.
A good person can have flaws and still be a good person.
Likewise a bad person can have virtues but still be a bad person.
Like Jinx and Silco.
Silco isn't the bad guy because he wants independence. He's the bad guy because he's a gangster that ruins people's lives and kills without remorseless.
This story embodies real life more than a '' story '', in my opinion it doesn't have heroes or villains, it has people
Well said, it shows that because they are just humans they make mistakes and they act more on feelings and not logic, and even though jinx can be considered the villain, when you look back at her past you can clearly understand why she is the way she is and why she is doing it, so she is not the kind of villain who is just going around killing people because she feels like it, she is not evil she is broken
thiiiiis !! i agree
Frequently life is full of grey and people are frequently the Heroes of their own stories. The average person is rarely pure evil OR good. Even some of the best of Humanity did some bad things in their glory years.
An the hero of one person's story can be the villain of another. Green Peace are heroes who try to save the environment, but also are criminals. Terrorists. Yet they became that way because they saw the futility of Law & Order.
Couldn’t have said it better, arcane makes every character actually feel like a real person instead of something as idealistic as a “hero” or a “villain”
sadly we cant forget that this is a story, and if stories carry on its characters usually become more story characters, at every turn of the new page.
I feel like I'm the only person who feels this way BUUUUT no season 2, at least not for these characters.
The moment where Ekko sees Powder in there while he's beating up Jinx, makes me cry every time. You can see that on her face, is an expression of realisation and hopelessness. She pulls the bomb, knowing full well that she might die. She accepts her death and it just saddens me
Ekkos is to blame for her mental state as he gave Vi the info on the job top side that caused the whole mess. Jinx isn't a monster but a tragic character that's been written well
@@mysteryace2129 That's a small-minded way of thinking about it. It's not Ekko's fault that Jayce was playing with dangerous magic. It's not his or Jinx's fault that that place blew up. It's Jayce's. But it's also not Jayce's fault that the place blew up because he didn't blow it up, Jinx did. You could say it's Vi's fault for instilling a sense of inferiority in Jinx that she needed to overcome. But it's Jinx's fault she made the bomb. You could say Silco's to blame for making Jinx make a bomb, or that he adopted her.
See what's interesting there?
It's all in the nature of the characters all interacting with each other. It's not just Ekko's fault nor Jinx's nor Jayce's nor Vi's nor Vander's nor Silco's nor Mel's. It's all of them interacting in the way that they did. That's why Arcane is so brilliant. Everyone's to blame and yet no one's to blame.
No one's to blame, that's the point. It's an exploration on what the world does to people, and whether or not people are 'monsters'. It's up to us to determine whether Jinx is a monster or Silco or even Jayce. That's the point. It's supposed to be debatable. She's a monster. She's killed people. But she's also just a broken girl. See the debate? That's the point of her character. It's not just a one and done kind of theme.
Essentially, the point of Arcane, which you are missing, is not to convey a theme, but explore a question. What does it mean to be honourable? A monster? To be good? Bad? A good leader? A good person?
@popcookie475 all I see is you excusing Vi's action by using rhetoric of "he technically did this," and "She technically did that."
No, the fact is Powder wouldn't have been topside to mess with stones that caused an explosion if Vi(the leader of the group) didn't take them up there. That was her call, her judgment. She gets the blame if it goes south as she was the reason they were up there in the first place. Watch Vanders scene again if you missed that point. Vi undermines Vander's judgment due to her pride by telling her sister to keep stones that enforcers were looking for. No good big sister puts her youngest siblings in the middle of danger like this. All she had to do was take them from her and give her a head pat of, "thanks for giving this to me, I might need it."
@@mysteryace2129 That's the point of Vi's character. She's struggling with understanding what it means to be a good sister. She doesn't know what it actually takes to be an older sister to Jinx. That's her main conflict.
And no, I'm not saying 'technically', I'm saying they actually did that. Not technically, actually. It's none of their faults that they ended up in the situation they did, but it's also all of their faults. That's the complexity of Arcane
@popcookie475 I know that's her character. I'm pointing it out. That's her character flaw as she is a bad sister and a terrible leader. What I don't get is people not understanding this themselves and lie about her not being these things which she is.
Why was the crew topside?
Because Vi wanted them up there to pull a big job.
Where did Vi get this information?
From Littleman.
Who is Littleman?
Young Ekko.
So me putting the blame on these 2 isn't a bias but factually cause and effect. Vi wouldn't have brought the crew up there if Ekko didn't tell her this information. These 2 are at fault for the top side situation happening in the first place with Jayce being number 3 since he was housing dangerous materials.
Honestly, I think she's neither. Jinx is a consequence. A consequence of so many different characters actions, inactions, choices and failures.. including her own. A consequence of the systemic failures core to the city itself. As a character she's absolutely not a hero; There's nothing heroic about anything she does after the time skip. As a character she's explicitly a villain given that she's quite literally a deranged serial killer that will emotionlessly kill pretty much anything or anyone. But in terms of her role in the story she's really the embodiment of an on rushing disaster that has been brewing within Piltover since long before she was even born.
totally agree on that note
she almost feels more like a plot point than a character honestly, like a chaos that can be affected, but no one really knows if it was effective.
Everyone is a consequence.
She is a villain, the good she makes does not outweight the bad she does.
She might not be a clear villain like Silco (that actually know exactly the bad he's doing), but she kills for selfish reasons. She hurts people who does not deserve it.
What would define jinx as hero or villain hasn't happened yet. We haven't seen the end-state. Hero is a label, it isn't a state of being. I'm not calling jinx a saint, she's certainly insane and homicidal. It's not so simple as declaring it and it being true though. The simple fact this is debated means the point has merit. Not everyone thinks of a hero as the hero, so if Zaun does give her that title it doesn't matter how good she is she'd have that label. We haven't seen the aftermath so really the answer to this is a solid maybe.
Ekko went through just as much shit and yet he doesn't go out there killing people. I love Jinx but she is EASILY swaying more to the evil side than even the grey one.
@@juliogomesdesouza9035 ekko didnt watch his parents die nor accidentally kill his adoptive family to get left by his sister. Theres some similarity, but lets not stretch the truth for the point.
11:11 I honestly find it beautiful that Jinx accepting who she's become literally wipes her tears away.
It's interesting how in both the beginning and the end, her inventions intervene at the worst timing. At the beginning when her monkey bomb goes off right as theres hope for vander and the kids escape, and at the end when her mistle targets the counsel right as they agree on peace.
She is a jinx, after all...
I think having ~villainous characters as protagonists is such a good thing, since it forces us to question their supposed villainy. That isn't to say a they need to be in a gray area, but the mere fact that they're presented to us as a protagonist - someone to cheer for - makes us more open to seeing the many colors of their morality. We may even conclude that they are undoubtedly villains, but we also see everything else they are. And we can't help but cheer for that.
well said, i totally agree it makes for a much richer story experience
As much as their actions are that of villains, causing harm to many, the nuance of the how and why is what makes it so interesting. It's not just for the sake of itself, there's underlying issues at play that make it interesting, it's why at certain moments our characters are introduced contextually AS heroes or villains. It's all in the context of the moment, the eye of the beholder.
I can't agree with the glorification of immorality. You might have just worded your comment in a strange way, but that's what it feels like what you're trying to say.
“She makes things wrong for those who deserve it.” I think you almost nailed it here. To me, Jinx will always be exactly what she’s always been billed as, a loose cannon. It’s not about being a hero or villain, Jinx is a jinx; period. She’s a “Powder”-keg that’s viable to blow wherever she is. Whether you’re her friend or enemy, whether you’re the hero or villain, Jinx and her actions could either hurt or harm you; maybe even both at the same time! If she arrives in a story, you can be sure you’re in for a good time! Just, you know, when the dust clears be prepared for casualties on either side.
In a setting like Piltover/Zaun, where both sides are corrupt and vile in their own ways, a character like Jinx is almost needed. She’s a symptom of the conflict that is constantly simmering between the two, and a source of karma for both. Sometimes Zaunites love her, but messing with her is dangerous and she brings the law down upon them with her mayhem. Piltover hates her, but since they are the most powerful they have the most to lose by her actions. Blowing up a building in Zaun isn’t the same as blowing one up in Piltover after all.
I think Jinx is amazing because she’s a Wildcard character who really embodies that role of uncertainty. She is a very real threat and her destruction, even when accidental, can change the course of a story. She could do the heroic thing and cause tragedy, or deal out villainous violence against those who justly deserve it. If she’s in a scene you’re both excited to see what she’ll do, but afraid of the repercussions all the same. She is a source of both anxiety and joy. Drama incarnate.
Chaotic Neutral Jinx!! I totally agree, partisan divides have screwed over basically every system that uses it, so a neutral party is always needed!
@Berserker 777 That makes sense considering the outcome of her adopted family.
The one true thing about when she is there, destruction occurs on both sides is proven in battle. The first time we get introduced to Jinx is her exploding her own cargo and shooting at her own crew while also attacking the other side. She doesn't care if her own side gets hurt as long as she can deal damage. This also occurs when she reunites with Vi. She doesn't mind that she could shoot Vi or harm her, she just shoots wherever, guaranteeing something to get hit. She is a jinx for everyone involved, even herself. I mean in the fight against Ekko, she is even willing to kill herself to win the fight by igniting an explosive next to herself.
Bro, she makes things go wrong for everyone. Not those who deserve it, everyone. She's a bigger villain than Silco
So Catlyn, Ekko, and Vi deserved suffering? does Mylo, Cleggor, and Vader deserved to die? All that innocent people mixed in her explotions "deserve it"? In think not, and I also think she is a villain.
I was straight up crying when jinx killed silco, it was so emotional and well written
Vi and vander death was more emotional. Vi was only a kid and watched as her dad died and was in denial that her innocent lil sis killed him.
@@shaelyn_world9501vi didn’t die tho? but I see where you’re coming from
@@WEAREZIIMMM oh i meant when vander died and vi had to watch it happen
@@shaelyn_world9501 tbh, everyone is right with their opinion, but that just Shows how well done deaths are on this Show, no "omg he's deadddddd now be saddddd 😢😢😢" but we instead get so much wonderful info on the characters and who they truly are
@shaelyn_world9501 Vi's actions led to Vander's death. Vi killed him not Powder. Vi was the one to tell Powder to keep the stones that ended up killing Vander despite Vander saying they should be disposed of.
Jinx is the only villain that i really felt sorry for
Normally, when villain does a destructive thing you feel hatred towards them but this isn't the case with jinx. you just feel sorry for her and for that she seems to have to keep playing with her blocks because of other's mistakes or manipulation
you really feel she doesn't deserve it
I think it’s because they don't completely try to paint anyone as a hero or villain. It instead focuses more on trying to show each of these people responding to their circumstances (sometimes that is greed or dealing with inferiority) and dealing with consequences. It shows the more complex nature of the characters, blurring the line of good and evil.
The problem is in "realistic" backgrounds you could go back far enough and do that with pretty much anyone.
Did Silco deserve Vander's change of heart and subsequent attempted murder simply because Vander saw the consequences of his decision to rebel up close and lost his resolve?
@@Idontevenwanachannel I’m pretty sure that’s explored a bit in the series. I can’t remember for sure, but I think silco wanted the ‘best’ for the undercity, which was basically killing all the topsides, good or bad. Jinx only wanted justice from the people who hurt her and ruined her life, the people who deserved it, though all her trauma and crazy ideas affected those choices. again I’m not sure and that’s only my interpretation
imagine feeling sorry for a cold blooded killer. regardless of her past, she is a pretty shitty individual
I really resonated with silco. He was an excellent character, a nuanced villain you just don't see these days.
This is one of the many beautiful things about Arcane. There is no true "good" or "bad" side as shown in a lot of media. There is only a world, and characters who act according to what they want from that world. "Heroes" can do things that hurt others and "villains" can do things that help. People aren't inherently good or bad. They're just people.
Jinx is a fine example of that.
She's in essence just a girl who wanted to be loved. Yet she was dealt a terrible hand in life, and continued to inadvertently do things that killed or drove away those she cared for. That ultimately drove her to madness, and led her to kill her father figure, estrange herself from her sister, and blast the council.
Good villains are supposed to be the heroes of their own stories. And I think Jinx is the hero of hers. She overcame her trauma, accepted herself for who she really is, and dealt a devastating blow to the people who oppressed those like her. She's also a murderous psychopath who kills in cold blood. A terrorist hell bent on bringing down the city of progress.
She can be seen as a murderer, or a revolutionary. A hero or a villain. A catalyst for change, or a harbinger of destruction. She's all, some, or none of those things. It depends on how her tale is told, and which side tells it.
The fact that both sides can even be considered just shows how much depth this character has, and how much work was put into this series. Amazing analysis Schnee.
Subbed.
Exactly!!
As someone that worked in government with real life problems of groups of people with agendas and antagonizing each other, I have to say it is pretty much exactly like this... A bunch of people trying to do the right thing, a history with baggage that promotes distrust and hate, obligations, responsibility and compromise... A lot of misunderstanding and all it takes is one wild card to make everything crumble... If anything the only thing that Arcane is missing is the role of the media but it didn't serve te story they were trying to tell so it's ok
Couldnt have said it better
A dangerous narrative that, while true, has exceptions. We all know there are legitimately "bad" sides.
The villain is the hero of their own story.
Vander is a villain in Silco’s story. Vander is a hero in Vi’s story.
Beautifully said
Yes , I have to mention a small fact .Vander was given another chance to become the hero, Silco wanted it to happen so badly he was trying to use shimmer on him to achieve his ends.That might be the reason he had a statue of Vander made in the lanes of the undercity.
What do u think ?
@@kernelparadigm The shimer was highly unestable made the person unestable, violent and kill them. It was just another way to kill Vander and destroy his name.
YES
The brilliance of it is that the question "Hero or Villain?" doesnt even make sense for her. The more you argue one way, the stronger the argument becomes in the opposite direction.
For every character in this show, there's a disconnect between the intent behind their actions and the effect of the actions -- nothing ever goes according to plan. Even something as straightforward as Vi taking a minute to cool off in a stressful situation gets twisted into maximum trauma for her sister. Victor tries to heal himself and kills Sky in the process. Vander makes a tenuous peace with the enforcers, but this creates a situation where the only path forward is for him to take the fall, which, in the best of times, would have imploded that peace.
And at the extremes are characters like Singed and Jinx. Singed, arguably, is the only character for whom the intent and outcome of his actions are aligned, but he also operates in a very ambiguous moral and ethical space, and his intended outcomes are almost cerebral in nature -- hes the pure embodiment of a type of detatched scientific rationale. Intent and outcome can align if consequences don't matter.
Jinx on the other hand is the embodiment of the idea that intent and outcome are and will always be fundamentally different.
What's brilliant about the final scene is that, no matter what intent you might interpret for her launching the rocket, it will inevitably lead to an unintended outcome. By accepting this about herself, she's the only character in this show who has actually divorced intent and outcome from each other.
In that last scene, I don't see her acting with any *outcome* in mind at all. She is acting with intent, but I don't see her as having any kind of end in mind -- even something as simple as "just watching the world burn", which, as villain motivations go, is the easiest way to justify any action. I don't see that in her eyes at all -- there's sorrow, pain, and acceptance, but no malice. It's a heroic act of destruction and war, and a villainous act of protection and love.
Well put I really think whether you see Jinx as a villain or hero comes down to how you interpret her actions. I mean let’s be real if I actually lived in zaun I’d probably think Jinx was a hero for striking at my oppressors while if I lived in piltover I’d probably believe Jinx to be the villain for attacking “unprovoked” (remember how most are unaware how dire the situation in zaun is).
The moment she killed half a dozen guards in cold blood, and without being ordered to do so, it's the moment she became a full blown villain.
And those guards weren't even chasing her or hunting her. They were acting as security guards at a festival.
She's not Harley Quinn. She's the Joker.
Is everything that happened to her tragic? Absolutely.
Can we understand how she got where she is? Definitely.
Can she be redeemed? No. She already crossed the moral event horizon.
Having a shitty childhood isn't an excuse to commit mass homicide.
@@brian0057 100%. There is no excusing mass murder. (Feels like that should go without saying).
But to be "villianous" is a trope that implies a specific kind of evil intent. Powder's actions were those of someone intending to be heroic, and Jinx's actions -- right up to the last episode -- were those of someone intending to be villainous. But in that last episode, she stopped being a true villain, because she stopped being concerned with outcome. Villians have a goal in mind, and usually have a twisted sense of morality that justifies the means they take toward that goal (the Joker is a prime example). But at the end, Jinx has no goal, and she has no twisted morality. It doesn't matter if she believes that what she's doing is right or wrong, or what comes of it all, because all that's left for her is pain. She transcended villainy into something that there isn't a good word for, much less any kind of identifiable trope.
People are blinded by the likability of her character. She lures and kills a bunch of enforcers, the bombs intentionally call out for help to lure people in. She takes pleasure in killing.
The song at the end supports jinx’s rupture between the action and the intent: “I want you to loose like I loose when I play”. She herself is aware of her tragedy
Part 2: Vi.
I feel the arguments you made for the hero arc fit Vi more. She started being built up as a villain as soon as everyone in her family died and she was kidnapped and sent to prison.
However, she still chose to fight for her people including working with people who work for a corrupted system. She learns to let her guard down which sometimes bites her in the butt.
I like that she is a flawed character. Knowing that her sister won’t fight on the side of good or morally grey, she stills tries to save her and get her back which also bites everyone else in the butt.
Unlike Jinx, she is the one who works with government officials while being against them at the same time. She knows what needs to be done whereas Jinx doesn’t. Jinx just makes whatever decision fits her needs at the time which is what makes them great parallels and foils.
My initial thoughts are that I don't think Jinx can really be defined as either one. But not for the same reasons. Every action she takes is, ultimately, a plea for love. As Powder, all she wants is to be whatever will make Vi proud of her, whatever will make Vi love her. As she grows into "Jinx", all she wants is to make Silco proud of her, is to make Silco love her. Her motivations are never about being good, or about being evil. She doesn't seem to attack Piltover because she was fighting back against the unjust Council, or because she wanted to cause a war. She seems to attack Piltover as a twisted sort of vengeance over Silco's death, despite the fact that she was the one that pulled the trigger (which could be explained as 'because Vi wanted Silco gone').
The next thing I thought to look at is to think where Jinx's arc goes after the events of the story. If she were a hero, she would lead the force of Zaun in a war against Piltover, or disappear, never to be seen again. But that's not Jinx, she's not a leader and she's very flashy, she doesn't want to disappear. If she were a villain, she'd probably be some loose cannon randomly attacking people (both Zaun and Piltover) just because she wanted to. But that doesn't seem very Jinx either. She is a loose cannon, but none of her actions are born from her own desire to cause pain or to cause disorder. So there's still not a good reasoning for hero or villain here.
The only thing that I can't see any "hero" argument for is her coldness in regards to death. Specifically, the firelight girl. If Jinx/Powder was just a product of her desire for love like my initial thoughts, then in the moment of her killing that girl, she should be torn between Powder wanting to love Vi and Jinx wanting to love Silco. If so, this scene could've been expanded into another internal conflict of "Kill obstructions to Silco's plans/Vi would never want me to kill." But she doesn't feel any remorse in the action, she doesn't feel the "I shouldn't have killed her" that Vi-idolizing Powder would. It's possible that this is conditioning from Silco, that during the timeskip he convinced Jinx into his mentality of "Death and suffering don't matter, just achieve your goals at all costs," but the memories of Vi that the firelight girl kicked up probably would've been enough to kick her brain partially back into "I want to love Vi" and disrupt Silco's conditioning. Again, this doesn't happen, it seems like she just doesn't even notice. And not noticing the death of a seemingly innocent person, at your own hands, is undeniably the sign of a villain.
No matter the answer, a very fun question to analyze. I enjoyed the change in perspective.
Jinx is my favorite character in the show too by a good bit (and one of my favorite characters period) and personally I read her as an anti-villain. Probably the most complex, sympathetic anti-villain I have ever encountered in fiction. I joked in a tumblr post that never have I encountered a character so obviously a villain on paper, but one that I am so emotionally unable to regard as a "villain" as such. She consistently does things that morally I don't agree with, but her characterization, backstory, scenery-chewing charisma, etc. is such that I can't help but root for her. It's wild.
Ooooh "anti-villain" I LOVE the term!!
@@schnee1 Actually upon further reflection I retract part of what I said. I actually don’t really morally disagree with most of what Jinx did. Like there isn’t a whole lot of difference in my mind between Jinx blowing up enforcers to steal the hexcrystal and a character like Jyn Erso blowing up storm troopers to steal the Death Star plans.
Also, even against Ekko and the firelights, Jinx only ever fights in self-defense (that we’re shown).
The only time I think Jinx strayed into full villain territory was when she kidnapped Caitlyn and attempted to emotionally manipulate Vi into killing her. But even then, she ended up leaving Caitlyn alive so….
But still I think “anti-villain” is the best way to describe her.
Good analogy to killing storm troopers, I totally hear that.
Even with the Caitlyn thing, on paper it was villainous, but it's soo tied up with her trauma and her neuroses about family that its hard to blame her. Especially with it being so clear that she didn't want Caitlyn dead specifically, she just was desperate for some sign that Vi loved her, and her trauma pushed her towards enacting this messed up ultimatum. Bad for sure, but villainous is questionable.
@@schnee1 Also she's blasted out of her mind on magical crack at the time too lol
But yeah I just meant the Caitlyn thing is the only decision Jinx makes that definitely crosses the line for me, even though there are clearly extenuating circumstances.
Even blowing up the council (I definitely think the rocket was a conventional explosive not like a nuke) is a perfectly justifiable decapitation strike on a hostile occupying power (even though personally I dont want Mel, Viktor, Jayce, or even Caitlyn's mom to die)
@@Kosomaddo I have seen some people saying that bridge scene was evil of Jinx part, but then I watched the scene again and the only reason that Jinx made that mess was because Vi returned to save Caitlyn that was in trouble with Marcus, in there were a lot of enforcers, Vi would be capture for sure, in a way Jinx saved Caitlyn and Vi and Ekko.
As for whether Jinx is a hero but not in the modern definition but classic. She is more like a Greek hero her flaws and her strengths are great, but she will be all over the moral spectrum.
It does kinda make sense to compare her to Greek Heroes bc a lot of the time they also have trauma. Of course their morals are very interesting could be more good or bad or gray
"a Greek hero" 🤣
That´s too perfect!
Great describtion!
The whole show has the feeling of a Greek tragedy, where the characters fatal flaws, and their unreliability to overcome them, cause and sustain a butterfly effect that ultimately leads to disaster
Comparing her to a Greek hero actually makes so much sense. It's kind of perfect.
a Greek hero? may say even, a legend?
Fun perspective swaps! I definitely lean towards the "Jinx is a victim turned villain" perspective, but I cannot deny that they frame her in a semi heroic light at times. Part of the genius writing for Arcane. Nothing is certain and everyone is to blame. Cannot wait for more!!
She’s a mass murdering victim. Life isn’t black and white and they captured that so beautifully
This show depicted the quote, ”Monster's don't make war, war makes monster's."
I absolutely love Arcane. No matter how many times I watch it or how many videos I watch about it, I always come back to it. Such a fantastic show, can't wait for season 2.
If I had to choose, I'd say villain but...even that doesn't feel right. There's a reason why in the game she's called 'the loose cannon'.
Every time she kills, it feels like a knee-jerk reaction more than anything else. A crow startles her, so she shoots it. A girl with pink hair brings back bad memories, so she shoots her (like you pointed out in another video). Her father dies and she has a rocket launcher at hand, so she fires it. It really feels like ever since she accidentally killed Mylo and Claggor, she's become indifferent/desensitized to the act of killing
At no time during the show did I get a feeling that Jinx cares about Zaun. Honestly...thinking about it now, she doesn't seem to (really) care about anything or anyone. When she thinks Vi is playing her, she prepares to shoot her. When she thinks Silco betrayed her, she kidnaps him and (I'm pretty sure) prepares to kill him. She craves acceptance and recognition, and I have no doubt that she genuinely loves the person that gives it to her but...it's temporary. She gives a very literal definition to 'I love you to death'
And yes, of course this is a result of her trauma. But that's an explanation, not an excuse. I get the whole 'hero introduction' thing but I also want to point out the scene minutes before that. She's so chaotic that people are literally terrified of being in the same room with her. You don't get that sort of reputation overnight
Oh also, given that Jayce and Viktor are in the room, I'm pretty sure the rocket will just cause a normal explosion. I know people suspect Mel might be able to shield the people around her or whatever, but I doubt it. My estimate is a few buildings max
best comment
i just don't agree with your theory, i think only the council will explode but Mel WILL shield them
@@mrkyurem5499 Thank you ^^
I'm fine with that, I just find it a bit weird. We already had a big revelation that Mel is from Noxus. Having a second big revelation that she's a mage, or at least uses magical items, seems like a bit much. But we'll see
Great thoughts, you're totally on point about the knee-jerk reaction characterization.
I'd say there are even signs that she's like this before killing milo/claggor/vander. I also noticed recently that in the scene at the end of ep3, when she comes out and sees Vi with Vander's body and learns what she did, she doesn't react with horror. Vi asks her "Why did you do this?" and instead of saying "I wanted to help save Vander!" she shouts "Why did you leave me?" Could all be shock and trauma etc, but knowing what she becomes makes me wonder if she's just so indifferent that she only gets upset once she realizes that Vi is angry and might abandon her because of this. Interesting to think about.
@@schnee1 her unnatural reaction to the death of Vander and her friends is indicative of the issue that classifies her as a villain: Her motivation. Her actions are always driven by inwardly focused desires: She wants love, approval and acceptance. Everything Jinx/Powder does is about herself; as soon as she thinks someone she cares about isn’t going to give her what she wants she is ready to dispose of them the same way she does everyone she doesn’t care about. You know why Silco will ALWAYS win in her mind going forward? Because he gave her his undying love and approval right before SHE killed him. It’s something she will always have now that can never been taken away. And because her desire for that approval was purely selfish, it will always serve as an endorsement of her villainous behavior. If her motivation was not so selfish she would be prone to self-reflection and question how her behaviors ended the life of someone she cared about. She ended the man’s life, literally. Instead, because all she cared about was the love and approval for her own sake this act of destruction gave her a gift that can never be revoked.
@@schnee1 The way I see it, she mostly went there to prove that she can be useful. I'm pretty sure saving Vander was just an afterthought. Which is also why the moment she sees Vi, the first thing she mentions is that her monkey bomb worked, instead of asking if Vander and the others are ok. Because that's what's most important to her. Which makes sense, because she's just a kid
In her mind death is something only the evil enforcers and other bad people can cause. It probably never even crosses her mind that her bomb will kill anyone. Because the first time those crystals exploded, she didn't see anyone get hurt. So maybe she assumed it was safe to use, despite the destruction it caused the first time
@Giotis Filopanos this is very true, I completely agree
Jinx definitely agreed with Silco's dream of a free Zaun. Back when she was still Powder she said something along the lines of "imagine what everyone in the Lanes could do if we fought back".
Vi too, actually. If it weren't for Vander's influence and the fact that Silco killed him, both sisters would have went right along with Silco and his goals.
Silco's goals aren't about Zaun, but about himself.
@@Simon-A.-Tan nope. If that were true, he'd be as flashy and ostentatious about the chem barons he works with. He works from a dingy office above a bar in the Lanes, whereas they spend their wealth on topside penthouses and can no longer stand the air in the fissures.
@@optimisticnihilist3417 What has being flashy got to do with it?
Look at the lanes under Vander and compare them to those under Silco.
None of the misery has improved. It just got even worse.
That's because Silco doesn't care about the actual Zaun and it's inhabitants. To him, Zaun is nothing but a concept that's an extension of himself; an identity which he associates with and thus has to be acknowledged as a force by the outside world. In other words; it's a nation that needs to have power so that HE can feel powerfull. When you can have that, who cares about showing off flashiness? His concept of Zaun beats all of that flashiness as something to "show them all" with.
That last(ing) line.... That's the essence of Silco.... as well as Sevika: they want to lash out at and/or gain respect from those (in Piltover?) whom they feel in some way belittled by. Sevika more specifically comes off as anti-Piltover rather then pro-Zaun.
Vander was pro-Zaun. His decisions were motivated by concerns for the Zaunites. Ekko can be seen as pro-Zaun as well.
Silco has no quarrels increasing poverty and misery in Zaun even further, tyrannising it's streets ("some were killed by enforcers, most of them by Silco"), and turning it into a corrupt oligarchy of Chembarons.
"Zaun" to him is himself; an abstract concept of a nation that serves to fuel his ego, but fails everybody else....
@@Simon-A.-Tan Vander was maintaining an untenable status quo whereby the Lanes were the only (very remotely) safe or prosperous area of the undercity. That was achieved by an under-the-table deal with Piltover's enforcer's that let Vander maintain his little fiefdom in exchange for keeping undercity criminals out of Piltover.
Look how quickly the "safety" of Vander's Lanes got upturned because a few children caused an accidental explosion (because they are forced to rely on burglary for subsistence I remind you) and the council needed to scapegoat them for terrorism.
You argue that the undercity under Silco is worse off, but I'm not entirely sure that's true. Even if it were I'd argue that Silco is playing a long game and hedging the misery and addiction of one generation against the sovereignty and freedom of all future generations.
If you're going to point out Silco's body count then I'll point out that the man was preparing to instigate a rebellion, and first had to consolidate power in order to present a united front in the face of Piltover's forces. This means gang warfare and bringing the factions of the undercity to heel either by force or enticement. Also, you can't forget the numerous allusions to Vander's own body count which he accrued "building" the lanes.
All this is to say that the situation in the undercity was untenable and Vander's way wasn't working. The Zaunites are definitionally second-class citizens, and if that was to change, then control of Zaun had to be wrested away from Piltover. Lets not forget that in the end, Silco's way DID work. The council voted for Zaunite sovereignty, and it was all on the back of Silco and Jinx's actions. Of course Jinx went and screwed that up in the final scene, but that's kind of irrelevant.
@@optimisticnihilist3417 you are absolutely correct about this
My answer to "Is Jinx a HERO or a VILLAIN?"
*No, she's Jinx*
And that's what makes Arcane so amazing.
Even though the story explains how they fell apart, season 1 is more Jinx’s story than Vi‘s
Season 1 shows how the adorable Powder becomes the crazy insane Jinx, but Vi hasn’t changed at all
For fans who know her, Vi is actually an enforcer, so how did she go from robbing people in Piltover to becoming one of their enforcers?
Hopefully season 2 will focus a bit more on Vi’s story
I think it is the story of a villain. A good villain and I definitely see the hero parts. That's the point of the series. All the characters have these hero and villain moments and it's hard to classify because everyone is trying to do what they think it's right and the own story doesn't make it easier either for you to decide if things would have been better or worse if they had taken another path. For me, like with most characters, it's just the story of a gray person that tries to get the better from the worst situation, what has visible consequences that change them little by little. Maybe into someone you could see as a villain or not, depending on perspective.
Yeah, I think there's no avoiding the overwhelming greyness of most of the cast at the end of the day
@@schnee1 One thing I say is that Jinx's introduction is Equally Heroic and Villainous. Because part of how she's introduced ends up feeling like the intro of a Horror movie monster.
A beast lurking in the darkness, spreading that darkness and using it to drive fear into her opponents before lurching forward to reveal herself in all her dangerous glory.
What is Caitlyn's Villain moment?
@@crcurran I guess the worst thing you can say about her is that she's an ignorant. She hurts Vi and Ekko when she talks sometimes because she doesn't know the truth and doesn't know when it's better to shut up. Like other people in the upper city, she does wrong just by being ignorant about the true problems of their city, but that doesn't make her bad and she tries to help when she realizes. I suppose she doesn't have villain moments, unless you want to count when she acts out of the law to do things her way, like disobeying her superiors and breaking people out of jail that she doesn't really know if are really innocent and harmless. Getting her best friend involved in it without even knowing on top of it xD. I guess you can count those. That's not truely villainous and she does it for a good purpose overall, but she definitely does some questionable things.
@@HimitsuHunter That's right. The part where she come out of the smoke is heroic but the real first time she appears as a grown-up is creepy. Of course they do on purpose like they do with this duality all the season.
I see Jinx as both and neither. In the final scene, I saw Jinx blowing up the council as revenge for making Silco choose, since Piltover had caused the oppression that let to Silco wanting to make Zaun independent. Also, Silco says that “They can all burn” which made me think the action as more Jinx avenging Silco.
Great breakdown.
My favorite way to look at Jinx’s place in the story is as the victim of “The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few”.
The series starts out with the dilemma of Piltover demanding a sacrifice in exchange for peace, and this same situation happens once more as we reach the final episode. An imperfect world filled with corruption where there ends up being one solution to stop the slaughter of innocents RIGHT NOW, and Jinx is the price. One life to safe thousands. “A simple calculus “
So when I see that last shot, I see the counsel coming to that decision of peace, and then the “lamb” they were going to sacrifice, in that very moment of decision, says: “No. F&@& you!” Jinx, an orphan who had her life dragged through the muck said, the counsel will not take anything more from me.
And then she launches a nuke at them. (Which I do believe is surgical enough to only kill the government officials.)
That’s the lens I view it through. Hero, Villian, I don’t know… but definitely a person.
Happy holidays 🎊
The the achievement of Arcane's storytelling is that it makes you sympathize with each and every character. It shows you that in a normal world there is nothing like pure evil and everyone is trying to maintain an equilibrium while having certain dreams of their own, but life still gets messed up.
What's interesting about Jinx's introduction is that it's a villain's introduction (the explosion and the fear of the Firelights) followed immediately by her actual appearance which is, as you said, more heroic.
Hero or villain, she's undoubtedly a tragic figure. I know someone who... even right now is facing a situation where they've managed to adopt their niece away from an incredibly toxic living environment (Not quite Zaun, but the analogy remains) to an environment where she's reunited with family that cares for her, both her aunt and her cousin, after a period of about five years (the time skip). But the trauma of that toxic environment has taken its toll on her, and she is haunted by the ghosts of the past. It has been unbelievably painful for her cousin to come to terms with the fact that she's not the goofy girl she was when they had lived together. To come to terms with the fact that they've both changed in a lot of major ways. I can't tell you how that story ends, because it is still being written, but it is devastating to see it play out. It certainly puts a far heavier impact to the events of Arcane for me.
I'm glad arcane blew up this way and gave channels like yours a chance to really take off. Like, I loved arcane, and obviously I went looking for insightful videos on the subject, but your commentary has been really great on a pretty wide variety of topics and I'm honestly just impressed.
EDIT: I think to answer the question, the real defining villain moment got stolen by Silco (ie. attempting to shoot vi, as such, stopping jinx from killing cait), hence, why the hero reading is even still possible. That said, do I think she's a villain? It truly is a difficult one, but I'd say, all said and done, I think she's done enough fairly indiscriminate destruction and murder, that, if we didn't get her backstory or her inner dialogue, I'd say she'd read like a villain. I'm just kinda guessing that, but it feels that way.
Really appreciate the kind words!! :D
I like the factor you brought in about considering her without the backstory. It seems biased to have had a whole backstory for this character, but in reality, it probably works the other way. If we had backstories for ALL grey villains, we'd probably have a hard time aligning them similar to Jinx.
I really like how you considered how it would be if she had shot cait or especially Vi. if she had shot vi the choice of weather she could become powder again would be compleatly removed from her and i belive that she would have become a monster that no ones affection could ever again reach. silco's or otherwise- in this way his survival may have even become the death of jinx. and if it were Cait who died im not shure Vi could ever accept jinx as her sister ever again. as it is now, even though jinx is about to destroy at least part of piltover and her only solid support (silco) left dead there still seemes to be a small sence of hope. not that things will ever be the same but that each sister may still have the ability to sympathize with eachother and even love eachother. this being said there have also been some solid uncrossible lines drawn that same night. They may still remain sisters but they now have the motivation to do whatever needs done. even if it means the death and devestation of the other.
I find the charm of Arcane is in my inability to label the characters. All of the characters simply exist in this world with their experiences and motivations.
Jinx and silco was so surprising to me because I really expected him to be an abusive father figure but it was jinx who showed more abusive behavoir. It was honestly so surprising
Wait how? Theres a lot of fans with manipulative relationships that’ll tell you otherwise.
@@tired_jazz_hands9232 she knocked him out, tied him up and held him at gunpoint.
Like bruh
@@tired_jazz_hands9232 Poor women, can never be responsible for their own deeds, even if they have crazy in their name. She literally says: "Silco didn't make Jinx. You did!" But go on, accuse the only father figure in her life of gaslighting. Even though 'Gaslight' is just another theater play and not a proven psychological technique. It's the man's fault. The bound to a chair shot-dead man did it. Of course!
@@jansix4287 FACTS
Silco loved Jinx and he wasn't abusive but she wasn't the right father figure and he was manipulating Jinx he didn't do her any good
I.... rooted for VI, all the way through. Jinx's psychosis and dependence issues make people feel apathy towards her, thinking that she had it harder than everyone else.
While in truth VI had it just as hard, but her really tough and adaptive personality gives a different impression. Imagine doing everything you can to save and be with the person you love, only to lose them to.... bad circumstances and manipulation, it's heartbreaking.
Same I thought I was the only one. I feel equal empathy for the two tbh
They have their own problems but jinx’s was just portrayed more
I disagree, while Vi did go through the same things, I feel extremely sympathetic to Jinx's sufferings. Saying that her mental illness is what makes you feel apathetic towards her, shows your ableism to a huge degree. I feel sorry and solidarity for the way that trauma has broken Jinx. Some people's coping mechanisms are security and safety, like Vi, but others use instability as shield, just like Jinx. "Make them fear you", is a way to protect yourself. In a lot of ways, what Jinx does is self harm, and people who don't understand that, blame her for it.
@@yukiandkanamekuran Let me clarify what I meant, mental illness increases people's apathy towards jinx, but is not the main reason. whereas more practical people like VI who don't show signs of suffering and are very capable of moving on are usually mistaken to have it easy or may seem selfish and carefree.
She killed 2 of her “brothers” and her “father”. Then got blamed and attacked by her only family left, and was way younger than vi. Jinx got it way worse my guy
@@russ7625 I don't think we can QUANTIFY tragedy. But it's a matter of perspective and relatability, you may change your mind on a second viewing.
These kinds of characters are called antiheroes, and Jinx is one of the few that are done right. Usually writers either fail to make them relatable, give them logical motivation or as u have mentioned give them proper arc i.e. character development.
When it is done right though these kinds of characters can be incredibly magnetic. Walter White and Tony Soprano are some of the best examples
I strongly feel jinx/powder is an anti hero, yes her actions are that of a villain, however the intention behind them is that of a hero to destroy the corruption that caused her so much pain and suffering that split her family apart killed her parents leaving her orphaned, she's not really a "good guy" but she's also not a "bad guy" we don't always agree with her actions but we can understand and acknowledge where she's coming from and the intent to write the wrongs done to her behind those actions. her entire character and situation is such a strong gray area there really is no right or wrong view as for her hero and villain collide to being one in the same.
I'd almost agree except I don't think her actions are in attempt to make things right or change things for the better, she's purely fueled by abandonment issues, trauma and rage for revenge. She hasn't ulted at the council thinking "this will fix the problem" she just wanted to make them pay. I would still agree that she's an anti-hero tho, or at the very least a very understandable and sympathetic lovable villain.
@@s.k.5845 i lost it at "she hasn't Ulted"
@@s.k.5845 Idk. Silco and Jinx were planning to bomb the council from the beginning. And since Silco wasn't going to give up Jinx anyway, they were going to do it regardless. She didn't just do it in a moment of anger and depression, she did it as Silco's last wish. the original intention was to still help the people of Zaun and give them a chance at equality.
@@nycto5147 good point actually!
@@nycto5147 you can definitely see some anger in her while she did it tho, mayhaps it was grief, but the way she screamed told me she got some of that frustration out with it
Arcane is smart enough to always show both sides of the central conflict.
The showrunners don't let any character be a hero or villain. Even Marcus, the corrupt enforcer lieutenant and easily the most disliked character in the series, isn't entirely a bad guy. He made a deal with the de facto leader of the undercity (just like his predecessor mind you) in an attempt to avoid and manage conflict. But Silco doesn't honor his end of the agreement by letting Jinx run free in Piltover, causing carefree destruction and getting people killed. The only thing keeping Marcus from going back and killing/arresting Silco himself is that he has a family to protect. And in the end, he doesn't even get a chance to fix his mistakes. Jinx's firelight bombs take away his last chance at redemption.
I don't understand how that point of Marcus as 'the corrupt' enforcer caused him to be the most hated and by wide margins. When he was doing just as you stated: Grayson did. So how does ones corrupt actions feel justified above the other. Especially when push came to shove, Vander didn't uphold his end just as Silco didn't. And at the start Marcus' dealing with Silco was simply to find the culprit(s) of the explosion, no more no less. He continued with the partnership always with his family/daughter in mind similar to but unlike Vander, who we can infere seaked out the partnership with Grayson.
One thing that often gets overlooked about Marcus is that he was supposed to kill Vi, but instead he chose to imprison her and keep that imprisonment off the books to hide her from Silco. Not only that, but... it's no coincidence that his daughter, who would have been a baby in Act 1, has a passing resemblance to Vi. Red hair, blue eyes, freckles. He couldn't kill Vi partly because she reminded him of his own child. I'm not a Marcus fangirl, I just love that this detail is never pointed out, it's just left there as something to notice if you pay attention. It's a testament to the love and care that the animators and writers put into the story.
@@brennakingsbury9657 I find Marcus the most personally selfish in motivations, hence little like for him
But I like the take you have on him and the detail you pointed out there, thank you
I dont think he is evil either BTW - more inadequate / over his head
I think that Jinx transcends the whole traditional hero villian dichotomy because like what was mentioned in the video we don't know the final outcome of the missile and also because at least in my mind to be truly villanous or heroic you have to be fully aware of your intentions and how what you're doing is serving those intentions for either "good." or "evil."
I think it's a strength to the character that she's so gray that you could make an argument for them being heroic and villanous and have the explanation make perfect sense in the context of the story.
I love the absolute mess of insanity and moral grayness that Jinx is as a character and I've grown to appreciate her and the story as a whole by watching your videos so thank you 😊
I just think everyone in this show is the hero of their own story and that just shows the complexity of the characters. All of them have deep rooted motives, personalities, and morals (even Mel even though I don't like her gaslight manipulator ways).
Jinx is a villain. I love her character, I love her arc. Her madness is understandable. I rooted for her to redeem herself but nahhh. I still love her tho. It's testament to how they really made this series so well for us to be having this predicament.
What do you mean by "redeem herself"? And what exactly would be redemption for someone like her? Is it redemption from your own sense of morality or the one established in the context of the show? I'm genuinely curious.
@@TheMrblessed well I guess by becoming Powder, choosing Vi or eventually giving herself in, commit some sort of self-sacrifice or sumth like that or go with Vi and get therapy 😅. I really didn't define it thoroughly in my head when I was watching, I just knew I was hoping for her to choose to do something "right". Although, a part of me always knew that wasn't gonna happen. As for my sense of morality, I knew since episode 4 there was no coming back after her committing mass murder. In the last episode, she didn't have to announce herself to be jinx. When she asked Vi to kill Cait in exchange for Powder was what sealed the deal for me. Powder's gone. When I say I love her, I'm not saying I support her actions. I just mean, I love her character design and how she was written especially for a villain.
What “redemption” she’s traumatized bruh.
@@inkubator320 trauma is not an excuse to proactively commit mass murder bruh. It does explain a lot tho and how that's lead her to whatever path she took. And yes, I was hoping for her redemption the same way Vi believed she can still save Powder before she chose to become Jinx even when I know that's what she'll eventually become. And that's just good writing.
Yeah arcane fans drive me nuts but you see this in a lot of fictional media- fans excusing mass murder and truly heinous actions because a character has trauma. Trauma can explain someone's origins or make them sympathetic, but it doesn't excuse their evil actions. Jinx is a villian she has been a villian since the moment she was revealed after the time skip and she killed that girl. she is a mass murderer and a terrorist there really isn't anything you can do to take back murder.
Victor: People are hungry
Council: Passive aggressive *RAAAAAGEEEEEE*
A thought provoking question, posed in an engaging way. In my interpretation of the story, Vi and Jinx are both incarnations of what circumstance has made of them. Tragic heroes. And Silco and Jacye are what circumstance has made of them. Tragic villians. Lots of parallels all around though; sympathetic, mirroring, repeating. Thanks for being a pontificator, for taking the time to pose the dynamic question, and then presenting the material for others to noodle along with you. Introspection is a lost art.
I fail to see how Jacye is in any way a villain. There has to be a certain degree of malicious intent to be a villain, and there is None showing in Jayce in Arcane. (If intent is not necessary, then Powder is a Villian the moment her monkey bomb goes off)
Amazing video I love this hypothetical it’s really interesting. My first watch through I saw Jace’s character arc as a villain arc. Going from hopeful scientist to corrupt politician.
I'm rooting for Jinx, she deserves happiness.
Me too
@@lil_tariYeah, you deserve hapiness too
@@caomunistadoggo4129 💀💀
@@caomunistadoggo4129 you too communist doggo😁
It's not just Jinx, the reason it's so amazingly written is because each of the characters have heroic and villainous tendencies. Most are trying to do good for their faction but all in the wrong way
Good writers can play with the idea of who is really the hero or villain. Or even say it's not that simple or binary. I love all of your videos about Arcane. I love the show but you help me appreciate more.
Arcane is a very strong show, I am a long term Jinx main and fan and before Arcane came out I was wondering what made her this way. But seeing Arcane broke my heart and made me feel conflicted as the way I see it, by the end of season 1 they made her virtually irredeemable.
As before yes, she grew up in a world where you fight to survive and as a daughter of a crime lord you also fight as family biz and you grow up with certain ideas but you don't become those ideas by default. And here I believe there could be a Mel parallel, she rejected ways of her warlord family even though it caused her to be banished (also curious to see why you dub her a villain). Jinx's final assault on Piltover wasn't Silco, it was her, even if initially the ideas were Silco's (or Vander's before he saw the destruction). She knows what she is doing and she is now committed to the act, for Zaun or herself. How can you revert or compensate what she had done? Even though yes Piltover leaders (some at least) are not humanitarian at all and only seek personal gain, and Piltover clearly abuses and leeches on Zaun, still not an excuse.
I am really curious how do they turn it out in future seasons but I am just afraid that they are setting her up for self sacrifice arc which is definitely not what a mentally ill person who was deprived of love and safety deserves. But here again, excusing terrorists and murderers cause they didn't have the best time and / or mental illness is also a dead end. Ekko is fighting for Zaun and he is much more of a hero than Jinx. So I am very curious but also afraid what will they do for her, i rly doubt there will be "jinx/zaun gets a therapist" plot line and more likely "wrong people pay for the sins of their environment" line [she should, but not her alone] so let's see.
Sorry for word vomit, pretty sure no other comment section would willingly house this ahahaha
Dont forget - Piltover want her head on the plate. Jinx just make a first strike
@@Алексей545-т6б well we also do know that as of time in LOL Zaun is actually independent and Jinx has her head so yeah, curious what happens between end of s1 of arcane and LOL's present and whether Jinx's actions led to Zaun's independence somehow (even if not directly).
2:45 You've jumped off the deep-end there. You can say that Jayce is partially responsible for the explosion that kills Mylo and Klaggor only in so far as he failed to take necessary precautions to safeguard the dangerous substances he was holding in his apartment. But you can't blame him fully for it - Powder chose to make a weapon out of it, knowing what happened previously. Powder then chose to employ it in the factory.
Jayce didn't tell her how to create a weapon out of it, and he didn't create a weapon of his own using the substance at that point in the story. You can't blame Jayce for what Powder chose to do.
Jinx is, at best, an anti-hero. You can rightly say she is responding to injustice, but you can't say that she is acting just herself. She kills far too wantonly without making any effort to ensure that only the truly guilty get hurt.
Yeah but Powder was also a child. I’m not sure at that point she fully understood death or consequences to actions. Her only motivation was to help her family.
Jayce as the creator of the tec is in fact responsible because he made it. Without him, it would not exist and could not manipulated in such a way. He knew how dangerous the arcane could be and yet took zero precautions. The most dangerous weapon imaginable was just sitting in his apartment, unprotected.
I know this is old, but seeing how you talk about jinx, about how much you enjoy and love her character is so refreshing for me. I adore jinx, she truly is an amazing character and I love how you laid out this video! Brilliant.
Though I have to admit, I’m incredibly stressed for season two in November, I still am excited to see more of her and (hopefully) the epic battle between sisters. What we’ve been waiting for.
The writers did an incredible job at making jinx relatable, nuanced and intriguing, all causing the viewer to really be sympathetic and empathetic to jinx’s circumstances and character. Hoping for her to achieve what she wants, to be at peace, essentially: to be victorious. Which is not how the viewer is made to feel for a villain. I’d have to say, while I’ve never looked at her as villain nor hero, she doesn’t fit the typical villain archetype MORE than she doesn’t fit the hero one.
Love you, man.
She is a central character to the show. Which is a something to note. One of the closest characters to be a protagonist. So this alone influence cause this create a marge between different perspectives. Of her, other characters, people who watch.
I personally still argue pretty surely that she is a villain. If its the morality of her actions, their probably bad results (change is not always good, sometimes revolutions lead to reactionary results) or even rather her motives that seem to be very selfish and egoistic (comes from her mental instability).
I do agree though in one statement that was done in the hero segment. And that that people should be able to let go of the past. Powder is gone and never had a chance against Jinx. *But* it doesn't mean she need to embrace Jinx, the part that represent her ego and pain (effectively be inslaved to it, doesn't really different from forcing on herself Powder again just little more honest with the kind of mask her ego uses now). I think she needed to burn the fuck out of both chairs. She neither her ego, pain and insult (Jinx), nor the innocent kid (and the memory of what she did). When she above it she can actually heal herself. But her current state is tragic yet not heroic.
Love this, excellent point about the false dichotomy! Burning the chairs would have been the truly heroic thing to do. That middle path is actually close to Jayce's solution of offering independence to Zaun but it was still tainted by the classic Piltover "but we need you to turn on your own and give us a fall guy"
This is actually pretty interesting. Powder is a past who never would come back, whe can't have the past back no matter how much we want, but Jinx is repressed pain and undeveloped personality, Jinx is not a happy person because instead of face her mistakes his mask the guilt, to be really happy and same again she mut be a different person.
In my reading of the series, it's almost useless to try to assign lables like "hero" and "villain" to most of the characters in this series, but not in the "there are no heroes and villains" pseudo-mature grimdark way that we see a lot in fiction these days. It's that most characters in this show commit acts and hold attitudes that are both clearly heroic and clearly villainous to some degree or another. The people who want to keep the peace tend to want to do so under an oppressive system that is obviously harmful and evil. The people who want to change that system are willing to actively do harm to the innocent in the process of change. The few people who end up wanting to end the oppression without going to the extreme of mass violence against those they want to save end up completely frustrated by those who are willing to do evil things to advance their own agendas (whether those agendas are well intentioned or not).
Arcane is a story about the realistic difficulty of "doing the right thing" when "the right thing" isn't even all that clear, and powerful people are willing to hurt, maim, and kill to get what they want. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but that doesn't mean that you don't try; you try, fail, learn, and try again. The most tragic heroes and villains in this series are the ones that botch that "learn" part (like Vi in particular).
I think, the point of Arcane is, that these measures don't make sense. Singed does villainy stuff, but has a point, Viktor sympathyses with him for surviving (and we know, he becomes evil) but it's Jayce who builds weapons. Silco is the main villain, but achieved a better living for most of the under city.
Still a great video and I really like your point.
I agree with all these points except for Silco improving the lives of the people of the undercity. Crime lords ruling over them and streets flushed with shimmer don't exactly sound ideal. Still, their conditions were horrible before too. I think this is is something that hasn't been properly shown. On one hand the undercity has become more lively, on the other hand you have children working in shimmer factories.
@@kristynab.6539 Silco terms in peace treatment could improve lifes of Zaun in near future. That was his endgame and the only reason it became possible is because his crime Empire became to strong to deal with it by force
I think that under Silco, you had a rise for those at the top. Shimmer made whole slums in the deepest darkest parts of the Undercity that had never been that bad. For the Chem-Barons and those who serve them, life was good, for the rest it wasn't. Under Vander, the conditions seemed to be more evened out. If anything, Silco's Zuan was a just a reflection of Piltover before, they had their own council that cared about their own interests over the rest, caring only for profit. Zaun under Silco was bright, but it was also burning out, like lets all party, and not care. Vander's it was more together, while more muted the life, there was a better sense of community.
@@SultanFilm Yep. But under Vander protection Zaun was weak. Marcus could come in the Last Drop, humiliate Vander in front of his people, grab his daughters to the jail and walk away in one piece.
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On other hand - shimmer is nessery evil. The way to gather power and influence. Make Piltover to recognise Zaun as equel. Then Silco was ready to stop shimmer productin in exchange of independece, free trade and exit to Hexgate. THAT could drasticly improve people of Zaun lifes
@@Алексей545-т6б Free trade and access to the hexgate was for the chembarons, not the people. Nothing would change for the people of Zaun except that the people exploiting them would be different.
Arcane does not have "Heroes" or "Villains". Arcane has people. People have motivations, lots of them, and it is the interactions of these motivations that drive their behaviours. To some the actions of Jinx are horrifically evil, to others they are awe inspiringly good. She is a demon to some, and an angel to others.
I don't think any of the main staple cast, the ones the story focuses on, can be considered heroes or villains. Some more minor characters could be classified in this way, such as most of the council members and Silco's nameless goons, but this is just because we don't know enough about them. We haven't been shown all their motivations for what they do. The story doesn't focus around them, so we don't understand them, so we can't consider their intentions.
The real piece that cements Arcane as, in my opinion, the best series ever, is that the characters in Arcane feel organic. We understand Viktor when he acts rashly and goes to see Singed. We sympathise with his drive to do something important in his life, to have a legacy. We understand Silco and how he treats Jinx. He felt betrayed by Vander, so when he sees Powder seemingly abandoned by Vi he is empathetic towards her. He truly does love her, and isn't using her for his own gain - that much is clear from how much trouble she causes him.
We understand the motivations characters have, and can see how they think and act based on those thoughts. They are not blanket "Heroes" or "Villains". They are people, like you and I, and they act in ways people do.
I can't say if she's a hero or villain, but I can say her entire arc was inevitable and that's what makes it perfect. I hope that in season 2 we will have a lot more of the main characters develop to a similar point, where you can make a valid argument that they're a hero AND a villain. Right now, we can arguably say that Jayce and Viktor are heroes (despite their dangerous inventions). They're presented sympathetically 99% of the time as they only want to help people. Even when they each kill an innocent person with their inventions, it's completely by accident and they immediately stop what they're doing because the moral cost is too great. HOWEVER we know it's not going to stay that way. So yeah I'm pumped to see those two (and potentially Vi, Cait, Ekko, etc) walk further on the knifes edge between hero and villain
I’m so happy when I see your content in my feed and recommended! Arcane is my favorite show and I love being able to see so many lore explanations, character breakdowns and so much about this amazing show! I don’t have many people in my personal life who have seen this show so it’s awesome to be able to watch a video of someone discussing it so that I don’t feel like I’m thinking about this show in a void. Love this video (Jinx is my second favorite character with Viktor being the first)!! Keep up the amazing work!!
I love your videos man, this one was 100% right I loved hearing your thoughts on it ! Very interesting ! Thankx for sharing !
I totally agree. Considering how Powder/Jinx's live unfolded how many of us wouldn't become crazed villains too. Considering her upbringing was by a crime Lord doing bad things would be ingrained in her as normal behavior. Plus how often do we see people get bullied/insulted/abandoned and then we wonder why they become bad guys. Now their choices are still bad but how much of their journey is them and how much of it is society pushing them that direction through abuse. Words have the power of life and death so choose to be kind even when something really bad happens like when Powder kills her friends/family when she was actually trying to save them.
Something I also like is that Jinx is haunted by the voices of her loved ones who she killed. When she fires the missile she hears Silco’s voice and instead of making her feel insecure or weak it’s the empowerment she needs to take that shot and start the war. Whenever Craggor, Milo or Vanders voices spoke to her they whispered about how weak she was but Silco’s voice even in death is empowering her and telling her how strong she is which is what he did in life.
Schnee, you know better than to not have enough bombs to satisfy literally everyone’s favorite character and Riot’s original darling while she’s trying to make the thingy-ma-jig work. No seriously, I’ve noticed that a character that is the favorite of a studio or author, etc., will usually become the audience’s fave too because the creator(s) love and care for that character just seeps onto their work and the audience can feel that love and care
Haha how lucky we are to have a show so densely packed w/ so many interesting themes. I love the structure of your video essays: from the timestamps, to the explicit terms/definitions/frameworks. It really helps in navigating the complex depths of these themes / characters. Though, as you said, sometimes the questions posed are more easier/more interesting than arriving at an ultimate answer!
Also, to me she's undeniably a villain. She's also my favorite and I _do_ root for her to come to some sort of healthy self-peace, but ultimately she _is_ a killer who is actively working against peace. To me even when you talked about her as a "hero" I couldn't really buy seeing her council bombing as a good thing, even if the council were solely made of the most corrupt politicians in the world it wouldn't be justified to me. I do find her very sympathetic and well-developed, and she's, again, my favorite character, but to me there's still absolutely no question that she's _not_ a hero at this point. You make a good point about her introduction admittedly, but to me I see it more like the Vader scene in Rogue One, a powerful villain making quick work of the heroic soldiers. I do have to admit to kind of rooting for her then, though, if only because we hadn't gotten a good look at how her older self is yet and not yet knowing for a fact that the Firelights were good guys themselves.
The rocket is composed of the same yellow and green fluid that is in her grenades. So I suppose the rocket launcher is powered by hextech to give it range/ but the explosive rocket is not itself hextech.
ooh good catch!! i didn't notice that!
In my opinion Jinx is definitely a villain. Dont forget that she shot a girl in the back just becouse she looked like her sister. In her introduction she mercilessly murdered a few people, and after that her killcount skyrocketed. How many children will have their childhood ruined becouse she murdered one or both of their parents during a routine bridge guard duty? The true hero of the opressed is Ekko. He was trying to fight the opressors, but only using non-lethal ways. In the same time he was trying to help his fellow Zaunians. On the side of Piltover only true hero is, again in my opinion, Caitlyn. Her whole life she was unaware of how bad is the situation, but when she found out, thanks to Vi, she genuinely tried to make a change in the best way she knew how.
I would argue she is purposely not a villain but she is definitely not a hero she isn’t any of the easy boxes you can put people in these are people they make choices these choices aren’t always good or bad and just because you make bad choices doesn’t mean your a bad person or a villain.
She shoot a girl because she attack Silco cargo. Thats all. They try to kill her just the same as she try to kill them. Jinx was better at this and Fireflights are the bunch of losers. Just to remember - this fireflights wanted to kill Vi(stab her with spear) in ep 6. Vi - girl they first time seen in their lifes. If Ekko did not stop them or made it too late - Vi was dead for sure. Good guys for sure (sarcasm)
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And what exactly Ekko could suggest to Zaun? Could he provide it citizenes with work like Silco? Or could he bring Zaun on equel terms with Piltover like Silco did? No. Ekko can do nothing. Just like Caitlyn - ignorent princess without real power to change things any better
I agree. There's villains and hero's on both sides of the city. The ends don't justify the means. Jinx is a villain because her quest for equality caused way too much damage.
Ekko doesnt has a plan for Zaun future, he only made support group for addicts, theres is no more than that. And the firelights do kill, Ekko had to stop one of them from finishing Vi off.
@@Алексей545-т6б In ep. 4 firelights did not try to kill Jinx, they tried to catch her in theese crystals things. Later in ep. 6 one of them was trying to kill Vi, becouse from his perspective Vi was working with Jinx, who murdered their friends. Im not saying that Ekko's and Caitlyn's methods were super effective, im saying that they were trying to do something else than flood the streets of Zaun with dangerous drugs.
I agree, jinx’s character story is absolutely incredible. It’s just so relatable and like you said, when she lights up the blue torch for Vi we all wanted what was best for her and for her to go back to powder. And when she ultimately falls lower and lower we all feel very sad for her
I know I’m late. But when you were saying that jinx is both hero and villain and how not many characters do this, it reminded me of one. Eren jeager from attack on Titian. He is one example of a character who LITERALLY was turned from a hero to a villain, he was a villain but at the same exact time a hero.
Love this show and all the characters in it, but Jinx easily takes the cake. Hope to see much more of her in future Arcane seasons.
What Jinx is really depends on your perspective. We even see that in the show, and will probably see more of it. To some she will be a villain, an unhinged killer. This will likely be how Piltover sees her. Zaun, on the other hand, will probably view her as a hero who boldy fights against opression and makes topside pay for their crimes. Her final act is the embodiment of that. Yes, the council was willing to make peace, but only if Jinx was turned over to them. Silco was not willing to do that, and he was willing to fight for Jinx even at the cost of his dream. And with Silco dead, the only person left to continue his mission was his daughter, Jinx. That is why she fired the rocket, to continue the fight for Zaun. Topside will view it as an unsolicited attack as they were willing to make peace, while the undercity will see it as the first blow in the fight for freedom.
On that note it will be interesting to see how Caitlyn and Vi deal with this. With Silco dead, Vi, and by extension Caitlyn, know her better than anyone. Vi understood that Powder became Jinx in order to survive without her, and Caitlyn learned just how much Jinx had lost due to Piltover's oppression. Yet they are going to be forced to opposite sides, with Caitlyn on her way to becoming the sheriff of Piltover and Vi making herself an enemy of Silco's faction after helping in the Shimmer raid. I can't wait to see where it goes.
This
This. Also nobody in Piltover even bother talk with any undercity representative in council. They just decide somthing from position of power. They will never consider undercity equal without war. I guess it just bite them back.
There is no way Zaun sees her in a positive light. Even the people under Silco power dosen't like Jinx, she used to shoot enemies and friends alike in her jobs, she was just protected by Silco so they can't defend from her, in the bar is show that everybody fears her chamges of mood because they know that Silco protects her. People who know Vander sees her as traitor and people who just want to work and kept livind would be infutiated and in danger becuse Jinx caused a war. Jinx never cares about a cause she cared about pleasing Silco but now he is dead and despite of making that shoot in his hoor she is not a freddom fighter at all but a lose end.
A thought : She didn't necessarily avoid hurting civilians with the bomb. She just specifically targeted the council. That's where it all concludes, for now.
Edit: She's also not a hero nor a villain. She's a victim, of her own mind and an absolutely horrifying chain of unfortunate events, that just keep falling on to her.
i appreciate this analysis of the plot so much, thanks
Here i am i another video of you, and again, i'm loving it.
I really like your theories, explanations, and thought about arcane. You are providing me too much info i can use to create wonderfull things and i wanted to say thanks You, you're AMAZING and keep going💕🔥
I think what you said about us all wanting thing to work out for Jinx is very true. While I don't agree with the hero/villain labels (especially in this show), I spent the entire show hoping that Jinx and Vi would find a way to reunite and move forward together.
Is Jinx a hero or a villain? The answer is - both.
Given the circumstances and even amongst those around her. She's definitely capable of being one or the other within a single sequence of events.
She is undeniably my hero
Jinx is a somewhat of an anti hero. A hero who had no problem with killing their enemies.
I think jinx is both, depending on who's viewing her- both inside and outside the series. It really depends where you sympathise and where the characters come from, what they grew up around and what they view to be good. Jinx is zaun, jinx is chaos, and you are okay with that or you arent. And theres a side where jinx is neither/both, where you understand just how complex she is, or the character's understanding that, where shes a hero to somw and a villain to others. But thats just my take idk
Dude this video is on fire. You made your point so clearly and admirably. I completely love this video and you just earned a sub from me. Not that it matters much in the grand scheme, but still. I look forward to seeing more of your videos.
I see her as a Hero, but not ur typical kind. More in regards to what needs to be, and perhaps she is a bit of Karma herself. A form of Anti Hero, tho not trying to be a hero or for anything truly selfish, she acts less on greed and more on Heart. She is PURE EMOTION and that's what dictates her actions & literally nothing else. She is pure "Right Brain" but w the knowledge & intellect for making tech from the "Left" (I know that the brain isn't literally like that, but im using this to best explain her as best I can). This is why she's seen as "chaotic", someone has to be I suppose, when literally every single other person in the entire series is PURELY LEFT BRAINED & very little else. She sorta _has_ to be the way she is, she has to carry it all. But it as tho she wasn't already uh... well, whatever she was, taking away the ONLY PERSON in her life that truly loved/accepted/understood her - SIlco, away, even if it was by her own hand... well.. now there's no one to keep her feet grounded. He was the only one that could do that, her only voice of reason.
Now there's no reason. Just pure emotional trauma personified and everyone responsible is going to pay (for what they did to that innocent little girl/Powder).
But yeah. A twisted form of Anti Hero imo. Capitalism (& Patriarchy) is the root of all evil, so her killing off the 1% imo is never a bad idea. I hope she becomes the new Queen of Zaun or whatever & makes the Pigs Pay. Maybe... in a weird way maybe she might actually help her people and do right by them? Making sure no one goes hungry or cold at night.
(-also apologies to animal pigs, you don't deserve to be associated w such scum)
"Pure emotion" totally see that, very interesting
I really like Jinx as the focused and determined character she is at the end of season 1 and I hope they keep moving her forward like this. It'd be a shame if they made her revert to how she was at the beginning of the 2nd act.
My big worry is that Season 1 was the result of 6 years of development, and Season 2 is undoubtedly less. I have full faith in the Arcane writers, but I hope the storytelling is as tight and exacting throughout future seasons despite the time pressure.
@@schnee1 The writing is very good. I keep noticing new things each time I watch through.
In the last scene of the season, when Vi is telling her that they can just leave, she hears a voice and responds "No she isn't saying that", then when Caitlyn and her are facing off the voice whispers that "it's time to leave them" right before she pulls up her gun (edit: she doesn't even fire)
The voices were trying to convince her to commit suicide, but after the death of Silco and his affirmation of her current self, the voices go away.
@@schnee1 I don't think the actual writing was necessarily more condensed for S2 than it was for S1. They didn't actually write the first season until 3 years ago, despite there being 6 years of development time. They also planned a lot of the big story moments and resolutions when they wrote S1. The scripts for S2 are already finished, but I don't have the impression that they were rushed, considering that we're talking about writing 2 nine-episode seasons in the span of 3 years. Hopefully that makes you feel a little better about it?
@Brenna Kingsbury thanks for the info! can i ask where you saw this? i was just watching an interview with alexis wanneroy the lead animator and he did mention that s2 has been in production for multiple years already, which is encouraging
@@schnee1 Some of the info comes from one of the writers, Amanda Overton. She shared that she wrote episode 5 around 3 years ago, and that the big story beats for the series were planned with S1. I believe the info that S2 has been written for a while also came from her, and is corroborated by the interview you saw.
I have the impression, given the huge budget for this series and the overall quality of work that came out of it, that this was perhaps not a typical writer's room and that they were given a lot of time and freedom in order to really get things right.
However, the animation team also added a lot of really thoughtful moments and elements that were not in the scripts, i.e. they are also storytellers in their own right, so if they feel rushed in making S2, that actually could have a negative effect on the story. For example, this same writer shared that the animation team added Vi caressing Caitlyn's face on the bridge and had Caitlyn echo this touch when she and Vi were on the bed, both of which are actually pretty important moments between those characters. Vi winking at Jayce in episode 8 also came from an animator and not from the script.
I'm just speculating based on the information I've collected about the show, but I think S1 was so good was because both the writing team and the animation team were just incredibly talented and committed and understood storytelling in their own specialized ways, and both teams were given the time necessary to get it all right and communicate with one another throughout the process. I hope that synergy is able to continue in S2!
It's amazing that everything in the show has duality. Jinx definitely has the most well developed duality in her character but every character has duality. Even singed who doesn't get much development.
They really nailed that theme.
Clearly defining a character as "hero" or "villain" its a very simplistic point of view in a story with such cumplex characters, obviously most characters like in real life are just trying to get by and mostly think out of their personal satisfaction. Jynx is just crazy and yeah that is part caused by her childhood but in the end nothing she made was to help or make the world a better place for others, she is just broke and does anything to get attention, her actions cannot be rationalized
this was already my perspective on the show but you sound so excited it's fun to listen to you talk about it
2:03 well quite the opposite. The reason Jayce started making weapons WAS because of Jinx and not before Jinx happens. Your point still remains though, fair video
They was opressing undercity from years tho
I'm actually worried what will happen with these character's in the next season and that bearly happens with me.....Especially Powder/Jinx😱
I too like Jinx the most I think its just beautiful and confusing, Eco could bring her her past memories in the present when they started to dance fight. I think if they could bring her happy memories, there would be some happy moments (for me the dance was a happy moment cuz she who haven't felt not psycho positive feelings for a long time looks so happy is just heart warming.) And in my opinion Powder had some weird mind cracks since before the diamonds dropped and she understood how they worked and decided to help her sis, she was going crazy so she may have had trauma that we have not seen where it came from. uwu so before "Twice" Vi? Left her she may have been left alone before. //usually I'm wrong though// ^^"
I personally believe that arcane has such a complicated plot line that hero/villlain doesn’t exist unless when talking from a specific point of view. In general however all characters have moments that make them heroes and moments that make them villains to someone else’s point of view
I like how I can agree with both pov and also despise them simultaneously
I think I will go with Villain, because villain fighting villains is still a villain. She killed to many innocent people during this season that I can't look at her as a hero. Also she wanted to kill Caitlyn (multiple times ), Ekko and even her sister ( on the bridge ). When a hero tries to kill other heroes for selfish reasons, do we still consider him as a hero?
Iron man. Civil War 🤷🏻♂️
Everyone's the hero of their own story and to the perspective of those around them. And did Jinx really want to kill Ekko? She pulled the pin and left it next to her. Every other time we see her attach/launch it at those she deemed opposition. And as we've seen she has yet to fire directly upon Caitlin or Vi(only as a means to physically cause them to separate: on the bridge, which she allowed them to walk away from). Plus she's always taken conversations before her mental state devolves. In the dinner scene Jinx wanted Vi to make her(Caitlin) go away. That doesn't necessarily mean kill her, it could easily indicate Jinx wants Vi to be accepting of what she's become and to not replace her with Caitlin(if you look at it she has similar attributes that align with the way Powder was. Skilled shot, passive nature, and trying to prove herself).
@@jonathanjohnson6727 She almost died when she released that bomb next to herself and Ekko. She was forced to the ground by Ekko so it was her only way to release that bomb.
As for the bridge part. Either schnee or other youtuber pointed out that during Jinx firing upon Caitlyn and Vi, Caitlyn actually wanted to cover Vi with her body and Vi pushed her away at the last second and that's the only reason why they weren't hit. When they walked away Jinx had Ekko to fight first before she could follow them. She lost her fight with Ekko and that's the reason she didn't follow them.
At the dinner she put the gun in Vi's hands and told her that she can have Powder back if she makes Caitlyn go away.
Jinx has two problems with Caitlyn: 1) that she is Enforcer and 2) that she stealing Vi from her. Everytime we saw Jinx had her mental breakdowns Caitlyn is main focus of her hate and anger. She created this image in her had where Caitlyn is a devil, monster that is corrupting her sister and someone that is partly responsible for her pain and what she has become.
@@mesjarch well said. She even told vi about the voices in the dark.
@@mesjarch Vi did push Caitlin away from trying to jump on top of her. But that doesn't change the trajectory of the shots were placed in the center of both(just because Caitlin instincts told her protect Vi doesn't mean the shots are done so with death in mind or as the goal). She still had her minigun right? It's long range. So, Jinx could have kept firing if she wanted(had she completely lost control like we saw in ep 4 when protecting the shimmer shipment) yet she switched to her pistol. The actions in this sequenced later parallels the final scene(allowing Silco to fire at Vi or protect her). Deep down she wanted to end the cycles until the form/dosage of shimmer gave clarity to her developed mentality and entrenched mental state. JInx grasped that Vi has changed, just as much as she has.
Weirdly I was rooting for silco the whole series. Wonder if he had been motivated by the destruction of piltover instead of independence if it would have been different.
What she is is a real leader of war, if your looking at it from Piltover she a villain no question but from zaun she is finally standing up and doing something. In real war with a few exceptions people are not black and white there is a reason they are fighting. Her whole character reminds me of the time that both sides in the civil war sung Christmas carols together and then had to fight the next day. She was like a solider who’s home was destroyed and now she’s the one leading the attack.
"Civil war" was actually WWll frenchs vs germans
@@narunatruiz1256 oops my bad, I thought that happened in a few wars but I’m not very smart lol.
What is striking about Powder/Jinx is the lack of remorse for the collateral damage that she causes. As Powder she literally killed almost everyone who loved her. And yet, she still felt entitled to the love and support of her sister, to whom these newly-dead people meant even more. At her moral core, Powder is just a terrible person. She's not the only character who causes catastrophes through negligence and poor decisions, but everyone else at least feels guilty. Powder is more like "Sure, I killed your family and ruined all hope for our city, but how dare you withdraw - even for a second - your love for me? I deserve acceptance even before the dust clears and the blood dries, and I don't have to do anything to atone or fix in myself!" That's Powder while she's still Powder - a moral monster. She kills people and her worries are "Aw crap, I hope these killings aren't going to downgrade my own lovability!" She later tells Vi that it was Vi who made her Jinx - completely failing to consider how Powder's own actions may have contributed. She's ready to blame anyone but herself.
What's amazing is that Silco is there to provide her the love that she demands but does nothing to deserve. Schnee helped me realize important stuff about Silco and now I think he's my favorite character. Silco is a good influence on Powder, and he performs the superhuman feat of sincerely loving her, though Powder is incapable of loving anyone back. Sure, she was always able to cling to people affectionately and pathetically, but love is something very different. It's not been made clear because we don't see the fallout of the last scene, but under the influence of Silco, Jinx might actually have become able to act unselfishly, to care about something broader than just her own feelings and her need for validation. We'll see.
Because Powder/Jinx is so fragile, childlike, insecure and clingy, she is perfectly designed to set off our own instincts for affectionate nurturing. These instincts can easily blind us to the fact that she is incapable of reciprocating these feelings, that Powder is addicted to feeding on our love but cannot give any love back.
watching this after the official trailer for arcane season 2 and I love how it seems like they're playing into the hero/villain paradox in how people perceive jinx. the poster vs the painting of her is the perfect paradox in how her actions can be perceived
She's a victim.
No. She's a survivor.
She's, for once, neither a villain nor a hero. Like. Usually shows take a solid stance on which on a character is. Vander is an old hero, no matter how dark his past. Silco is a villain no matter how understandable his motives.
But Jinx? She's not given a distinctive characterization either way. We are shown the tragic outcomes of her actions but we aren't given reason to denounce her.
Actually , i do know that if she is neither villain nor hero but in the long run when we watch other coming out seasons hopefully in 2022 we could decide otherwise i don't know JINX is so complicated , but PTSD that left from her family and definitely form her sister is traumatic .
From my perspective , in the season 1 VI didn't really make a promising effort to bring her sister back , sometimes words cannot describe what you feel instead you need to take an action. So what do you think guyz?
12:49 Jinx is my favorite character ever! I'm going to get "Boom" tattooed on the right side of my neck in that same font.
I started watching this series because of a Henry Cavil interview and it came up this was a great show to watch.
I went into watching knowing nothing I dont even play video games- a couple times I did get a little bored honestly. I think there was just alot to process also, because I was watching inattentively.
I finished the series in 2 days and I am now on my 3rd round of watching the series again. So 3 times now have I watched every episode. What I really love and admire about this series is they took 10 month to complete a episode total 6 years of working on the series.
Every detail is so important and so thought out. It's almost too much to get it all on one watch. I think this is a series a person needs to watch multiple times because there is new things to discover each time. Truly brilliant I am a fan.