I'm really enjoying these series of commom mistype videos you have going on, Joyce. Wish that they all shared more about Si-dominant specific clarifications within their own subjective experiences and in thought-flow sequence to help more in understanding how to self-clarify. Some people still don't understand the depth and functionality of Si. But this panel showed that high-stack Fe very well! Thank you for this information out there, thank you Joyce and the participants. :)
Hi Naisu! Thank you for always coming to the premieres!! It warms my heart. 💖 I will encourage panelists to share more of their personal experiences during these panels to get a greater understanding of how to self-clarify one's type.
"Society's tradition" is actually more Fe and Te (though ESFJ and ESTJ are more traditional compared to ENFJ and ENTJ). Jung specifically said it was the extroverts who more strongly adhered to society's traditions, rules, etc. So I agree that ISFJ (and ISTJ) don't necessarily care about "society's tradition", especially when they're extremely introverted. Also, when people talk about "tradition", we often immediately think of something like Victorian or 1950s era "traditions", and we often picture SJs like the stereotypical 1950s housewife/breadwinner (which is way too simplistic and often inaccurate). But people don't realize that "tradition" in the 21st century is no longer that, and many people nowadays are "traditional" in the 21st century sense but don't realize they are "traditional". A lot of these people are ES_Js who don't realize they're ES_Js because they aren't "traditional" in the 1950s kind of way. I suspect many of them mistype themselves as EN_Js or even IN_Js.
This is such a wonderful discussion and I understand ISFJs a little better. I know 2 ISFJs, I work with one of them, she is a nurse and just wonderful. The other one is a friend of our family and again a very compassionate and kind person (INFP here)
I think ESFJs generally are better dressers than ISFJ because for the ESFJ the Fe is dominant -- and Fe isn't just about taking care of other people's feelings, it's also about living in accordance to socially acceptable values. (Jung specifically says this in his section about the Extroverted Feeling type.) And fashion (what's appropriate clothing for each situation, what looks "good" or "bad", what signifies status, etc) -- follows society's values of a given era. Just as Te doms are very good at navigating through the external world of rules and laws and the mechanics of how things work in the external world, Fe doms are very good at doing the same thing in the external with regards to social values. Fe doms, especially when lacking much balance from their introverted side, can dedicate their entire life to living according to society's ideals (the most well-dressed, the most popular, the most ideal wife, the most ideal this or that, etc). Te doms do a similar thing, except it's more about success and power rather than social ideals.
But yeah, I agree with Joyce that extroverts as a whole are more aware of how they look to others and therefore **generally** they care more about their appearance than introverts do. Introverts can care a lot about their appearance too, but I notice they often have their own (sometime eccentric) ideas of what looks good, and so their sense of fashion doesn't necessarily follow what's trendy.
The pumpkin spice latte drinking when the season comes in is something I do but it's a recent development I actually adopted from a very enthusiastic ESFJ. For me as an INFJ it became a cool concept that revolves around other pumpkin related things, so I invented my own "pumpkin season". This is Ni-Se, much more conceptual, during my pumpkin time I like to explore anything pumpkin, try new pumpkin recipes and look for colour and shape references in fashion, interior and travel, keep inspiring myself for new interesting ideas. I also have a penchant for certain flowers which came from a very, well, flowery and poetically written text about gardening when I was looking for some practical advice. And so this also became a decorating with flowers concept for me where I look for new arranging combinations. But throughout my life I couldn't care less if today is for example banana day, so everyone eats bananas, now I see such special days as an opportunity to try new things within the realm but in general I'm not very keen on doing something on a specific day just because it is that day. It needs to be either interesting or have some form of Fe involvement for me to do it.
ISFJs have the most soothing voice. When they talk it feels like they are very familiar. Probably because they easily pick up on the concrete realities and how general people express themselves
I loved that you touched upon the environment impacting how you are typed or mirror. I’ve noticed this being around an istp for quite a long time- I try to speak his language more (logic and to the point) and sometimes forget that I use to be more feeling based when speaking. I jokingly tell him that he tpd me . 😉
The well of data points in this discussion is so rich and clear. I found it very easy to follow and understand. ISFJs seem to be really good at observing the variables that make a difference in how other people's feelings are moved. I'm very curious how ISFJs and INTPs use Ti and Si to build a *framework* of how feelings work cause-and-effect-wise. I think it differs to Fi and Si which constructs a *profile* on more of a compare-and-contrast fashion. If this, then that. VS. this than/or that.
Interesting thoughts, Katie! Si-Ti could definitely create a compare and contrast framework on how to make people feel good. The Fe-Ne pairing may also add to that, guessing at people's reactions to accommodate them as best as possible.
@@JoyceMeng22 I can see that. I was theorizing Feeling functions analyze using comparisons and Thinking functions use causation. Of course, they intersect with one another, but I thought that the process could be unique to the respective functions. It's difficult to distinguish which functions do what (if they *can* do anything independently 😅).
I just wanted to share my understanding of the wanting to know everything about a person‘s day thing from what I picked up during this talk. And if there are some SJs reading this, please feel free to correct me if you disagree :) To me, and especially combined with the "How was that for you?“ question that Joyce touched on, it sounds kind of like an atmosphere/ vibe seismograph or like crafting an impressionist painting of the person’s day in your mind. Which means that even such small good and bad things like a colleague smiling at them upon entering the office or having to drink their coffee black because the milk was spoiled, when they really don’t like their coffee that strong, are going to stand out in this vibe seismograph. And because you care about homeostasis so much, it is really important for you to know that they where comfortable and you feel happy about even the little moments of joy as if they had happened to you, since your Si and Fe are working together. I previously had a hard time wrapping my head around this trait, because I myself don’t see these details as important and would even struggle to recall them, giving off the impression that nothing happened to me that day lol. But if it really is as I have theorized above, it is really caring and sweet and adorable ^^
Ugghh, I want to pick Jordon's brain about being married to an isfp. That dynamic has always peeked my interest because it's very personal to me...although it's hard to grasp new information because I have isfp's very close to home... but it would be so interesting to hear someone else experience. Awesome people make for an awesome video! Thank you!
I feel uncomfortable when folks explain away the nuances of a model with a different model. It seems like circular reasoning to me. In the case of mbti, I imagine you can use this kind of reasoning to justify mistypes. Ideally, a single model should be sufficient to explain all the nuances within the domain of the said model. I.e we shouldn't have to use engram to explain the nuance of infps, the explanation should be imbedded within the mbti theory if the theory is correct.
The reason MBTI types often miss who people really are is they force anyone who seems Sensing dominant to be either IJ or EP. Rather confusingly, IPs and EJs thus have the third letter of their type as their dominant function. However, a single model that is sufficient to explain all the nuances of personality will be counterproductive for a livable society because it will render everyone as their own unique personality, thus making it easier to use the theory for authoritarian rule if it is correct. I. E. we shouldn’t explain away all the nuances of a model if we can just because we can
Yes xD Iam an ESFP (i guess) and my roommate and best friend is an ISFJ. I can feel her husband when he says "i just want that Detail not EVERY Detail. Haha
@@JoyceMeng22 Joyce, I was gonna comment in Gray’s video, since that’s more directly relevant, but since I’m here… I watched the video you did w/ Gray on her channel, and I love how you’re allowing yourself to be more vulnerable now. It’s helpful to know more of your backstory & background, esp. since it’s what your panel participants come on YOUR channel to do. We’re all here to learn from and about each other, so it’s great that we can get more context about YOUR life to understand your own deep motivations for pursuing this calling to help people understand themselves & others better to create a more optimized world by unlocking our passions & potential. After all, happier people tend to show up in the world being better and treating others better. 🙏✨💕
@@JoyceMeng22 One last thing…if you ever want/need to run your Ni long-range visions & plans by someone, ask your healthy, well-developed INTJ friends. They’ll be able to give you an accurate look into what’s feasible for the future. 😉
I would never be so rude about people's work lol I would fix it but not insult them. I had a professor who ripped 1 of my essays to shreds and I told her off lol I had to teach her how to treat students :) I'm harder on people in positions of power.
Nice job sticking up to her. :) Good for you! The insults are partly cultural. The person mentioned in the example is Asian, and being blunt and harsh is amplified by her sort of upbringing. Not all Te users are like that. Your approach is much better. 🙂
How do children of ISFJ parents know if their parents are being complimentary to them just to be nice or not? I have ISFJ mom and I think constantly telling me how good I am at something is only setting me up for a great fall when I finally confront the real world.
My girlfriend is ISFJ and very very good with Ti if they are very smart they can be typed as INTP too but you gotta track the Se and the Ne and you will see you can have a super smart isfj but they still won’t ideate all that much and come up with new links
I actually think Ne relates more to group goals and Ni relates more to personal goals. So all things being equal, an Ne user would think more about things like Climate change, the future of humanity, how to solve world hunger etc. while an Ni user on the other hand would think about, careers goals, personal development, 401k etc. In general, extroverted functions are group focused while introverted functions are individual focused. So, I wouldn't be surprised if Isfjs are more group focused in their goals than infjs, although the fact their Ne is inferior might make that less obvious.
I'd say that Ni-Fi is most that way, due to their Ni vision being oriented towards personal goals that their Fi cares about. The thing is, I've also had ISTJs with Si-Fi tell me they have long term personal goals. SJs desire security, and one of the ways they can achieve that is through long-term planning, such as locking in their retirement & 401k. Especially factoring in their Te-Fi, they are going to want to execute on the goals that are personally important to them. Whereas with Fe, whether in ISFJs or INFJs, in general it creates a greater concern for group well-being & ensuring they are considering others in goal-orientation.
@@JoyceMeng22 True, those examples can also be linked to the fi-te axis. I am guessing that in the case si doms like istjs, they would care about things like that because they are obligated to do so. Intjs on the other hand might be more willing to forge their own unique path to achieve their goals. That might show up in them investing in unorthodox ways like crypto currencies etc. I am not completely sure how Ni-Ti personal goals show up.
@@oluchukwuokafor7729 I wouldn’t use lense functions (Ne/Si, Ni/Se) to explain personal goals or group goals, since they are only perceiving data, not interpreting it. That’s up to the judging functions. An Si dom or aux might watch the news and see that Greece is hit hard by wildfires this year and compare and contrast it to late 2019s/early 2020s wildfires in Australia and the wildfires in California in 2020. They then might see a diagram of global temperature rise over the last 50 years and realize that climate change is a global issue, not just a local one. Then, their Ne might activate and see how different issues tracing back to the overarching theme of climate change are interlinked and therefore, coming to a Ti conclusion, require a collaborative solution. Ne users would likely perceive the grand issue of climate change first, then see the connections between different issues, while conjuring up memories of past events. At least, that is my understanding of the functions. I can’t speak on Ni/Se since I don’t use those and Ni is very difficult to really grasp for me. So to sum up my point, everyone can view problems holistically and individually, the starting point is different, though. Fe and Te users are probably more likely to tackle group issues before personal ones. However, Fi and Ti users can also make it a personal goal to dedicate their talents to the wellbeing of the tribes. Again, different starting points, same conclusion.
18:25 YES. Si gets sooooo misinterpreted as “society’s traditions” rather than their OWN traditions.
ISFJs, I love you guys so much. You are the best.
They really are a great group. 😃
Great panel by the ISFJs- I loved hearing their insights on Si.
And as an aside, ISFJ Ti is SO underestimated in the community.
I'm really enjoying these series of commom mistype videos you have going on, Joyce. Wish that they all shared more about Si-dominant specific clarifications within their own subjective experiences and in thought-flow sequence to help more in understanding how to self-clarify.
Some people still don't understand the depth and functionality of Si.
But this panel showed that high-stack Fe very well! Thank you for this information out there, thank you Joyce and the participants. :)
Hi Naisu! Thank you for always coming to the premieres!! It warms my heart. 💖 I will encourage panelists to share more of their personal experiences during these panels to get a greater understanding of how to self-clarify one's type.
@@JoyceMeng22 I look forward to them all the time, Joyce :3
"Society's tradition" is actually more Fe and Te (though ESFJ and ESTJ are more traditional compared to ENFJ and ENTJ). Jung specifically said it was the extroverts who more strongly adhered to society's traditions, rules, etc. So I agree that ISFJ (and ISTJ) don't necessarily care about "society's tradition", especially when they're extremely introverted.
Also, when people talk about "tradition", we often immediately think of something like Victorian or 1950s era "traditions", and we often picture SJs like the stereotypical 1950s housewife/breadwinner (which is way too simplistic and often inaccurate). But people don't realize that "tradition" in the 21st century is no longer that, and many people nowadays are "traditional" in the 21st century sense but don't realize they are "traditional". A lot of these people are ES_Js who don't realize they're ES_Js because they aren't "traditional" in the 1950s kind of way. I suspect many of them mistype themselves as EN_Js or even IN_Js.
Great food for thought!! I'll be pondering this, @E C.
This is such a wonderful discussion and I understand ISFJs a little better. I know 2 ISFJs, I work with one of them, she is a nurse and just wonderful. The other one is a friend of our family and again a very compassionate and kind person (INFP here)
I think ESFJs generally are better dressers than ISFJ because for the ESFJ the Fe is dominant -- and Fe isn't just about taking care of other people's feelings, it's also about living in accordance to socially acceptable values. (Jung specifically says this in his section about the Extroverted Feeling type.) And fashion (what's appropriate clothing for each situation, what looks "good" or "bad", what signifies status, etc) -- follows society's values of a given era. Just as Te doms are very good at navigating through the external world of rules and laws and the mechanics of how things work in the external world, Fe doms are very good at doing the same thing in the external with regards to social values. Fe doms, especially when lacking much balance from their introverted side, can dedicate their entire life to living according to society's ideals (the most well-dressed, the most popular, the most ideal wife, the most ideal this or that, etc). Te doms do a similar thing, except it's more about success and power rather than social ideals.
But yeah, I agree with Joyce that extroverts as a whole are more aware of how they look to others and therefore **generally** they care more about their appearance than introverts do. Introverts can care a lot about their appearance too, but I notice they often have their own (sometime eccentric) ideas of what looks good, and so their sense of fashion doesn't necessarily follow what's trendy.
The pumpkin spice latte drinking when the season comes in is something I do but it's a recent development I actually adopted from a very enthusiastic ESFJ. For me as an INFJ it became a cool concept that revolves around other pumpkin related things, so I invented my own "pumpkin season". This is Ni-Se, much more conceptual, during my pumpkin time I like to explore anything pumpkin, try new pumpkin recipes and look for colour and shape references in fashion, interior and travel, keep inspiring myself for new interesting ideas.
I also have a penchant for certain flowers which came from a very, well, flowery and poetically written text about gardening when I was looking for some practical advice. And so this also became a decorating with flowers concept for me where I look for new arranging combinations.
But throughout my life I couldn't care less if today is for example banana day, so everyone eats bananas, now I see such special days as an opportunity to try new things within the realm but in general I'm not very keen on doing something on a specific day just because it is that day. It needs to be either interesting or have some form of Fe involvement for me to do it.
Please people who just find that valuable subscribe !
What she is doing here is just life saving work.
ISFJs have the most soothing voice. When they talk it feels like they are very familiar. Probably because they easily pick up on the concrete realities and how general people express themselves
I loved that you touched upon the environment impacting how you are typed or mirror. I’ve noticed this being around an istp for quite a long time- I try to speak his language more (logic and to the point) and sometimes forget that I use to be more feeling based when speaking. I jokingly tell him that he tpd me . 😉
"he tpd me"
Haha! That's a magnificent way of putting it. 😂😃
The well of data points in this discussion is so rich and clear. I found it very easy to follow and understand. ISFJs seem to be really good at observing the variables that make a difference in how other people's feelings are moved.
I'm very curious how ISFJs and INTPs use Ti and Si to build a *framework* of how feelings work cause-and-effect-wise. I think it differs to Fi and Si which constructs a *profile* on more of a compare-and-contrast fashion.
If this, then that. VS. this than/or that.
Interesting thoughts, Katie! Si-Ti could definitely create a compare and contrast framework on how to make people feel good. The Fe-Ne pairing may also add to that, guessing at people's reactions to accommodate them as best as possible.
@@JoyceMeng22 I can see that. I was theorizing Feeling functions analyze using comparisons and Thinking functions use causation. Of course, they intersect with one another, but I thought that the process could be unique to the respective functions. It's difficult to distinguish which functions do what (if they *can* do anything independently 😅).
I just wanted to share my understanding of the wanting to know everything about a person‘s day thing from what I picked up during this talk. And if there are some SJs reading this, please feel free to correct me if you disagree :)
To me, and especially combined with the "How was that for you?“ question that Joyce touched on, it sounds kind of like an atmosphere/ vibe seismograph or like crafting an impressionist painting of the person’s day in your mind. Which means that even such small good and bad things like a colleague smiling at them upon entering the office or having to drink their coffee black because the milk was spoiled, when they really don’t like their coffee that strong, are going to stand out in this vibe seismograph. And because you care about homeostasis so much, it is really important for you to know that they where comfortable and you feel happy about even the little moments of joy as if they had happened to you, since your Si and Fe are working together.
I previously had a hard time wrapping my head around this trait, because I myself don’t see these details as important and would even struggle to recall them, giving off the impression that nothing happened to me that day lol. But if it really is as I have theorized above, it is really caring and sweet and adorable ^^
It's so wholesome how ISFJs ask you about your day. Too darn sweet. 🙂
Ugghh, I want to pick Jordon's brain about being married to an isfp. That dynamic has always peeked my interest because it's very personal to me...although it's hard to grasp new information because I have isfp's very close to home... but it would be so interesting to hear someone else experience. Awesome people make for an awesome video! Thank you!
Good to know! I will try to get Jordan on Type Talks again someday to talk about her relationship with her husband. :)
I feel uncomfortable when folks explain away the nuances of a model with a different model. It seems like circular reasoning to me. In the case of mbti, I imagine you can use this kind of reasoning to justify mistypes. Ideally, a single model should be sufficient to explain all the nuances within the domain of the said model.
I.e we shouldn't have to use engram to explain the nuance of infps, the explanation should be imbedded within the mbti theory if the theory is correct.
agree
The reason MBTI types often miss who people really are is they force anyone who seems Sensing dominant to be either IJ or EP. Rather confusingly, IPs and EJs thus have the third letter of their type as their dominant function. However, a single model that is sufficient to explain all the nuances of personality will be counterproductive for a livable society because it will render everyone as their own unique personality, thus making it easier to use the theory for authoritarian rule if it is correct.
I. E. we shouldn’t explain away all the nuances of a model if we can just because we can
This is sooo good!!
This really helps me on my journey to get to know all the 16 types.
1:01:15 as an Fi/Te user (ESFP)…. Yes.
Whomp whomp
shylily
I like Jami. She has a lot of personality.
33:10 this is also true with inferior Si, but inferior Si’s details are even LESS relevant. As an Se user, I very much relate to Jordan’s husband 😂
Yes xD Iam an ESFP (i guess) and my roommate and best friend is an ISFJ. I can feel her husband when he says "i just want that Detail not EVERY Detail. Haha
Great panel, Joyce & participants! 👏
This felt so warm & cozy. 🥰
Thank you! 🤗
@@JoyceMeng22 Joyce, I was gonna comment in Gray’s video, since that’s more directly relevant, but since I’m here…
I watched the video you did w/ Gray on her channel, and I love how you’re allowing yourself to be more vulnerable now. It’s helpful to know more of your backstory & background, esp. since it’s what your panel participants come on YOUR channel to do.
We’re all here to learn from and about each other, so it’s great that we can get more context about YOUR life to understand your own deep motivations for pursuing this calling to help people understand themselves & others better to create a more optimized world by unlocking our passions & potential. After all, happier people tend to show up in the world being better and treating others better. 🙏✨💕
@@JoyceMeng22 One last thing…if you ever want/need to run your Ni long-range visions & plans by someone, ask your healthy, well-developed INTJ friends. They’ll be able to give you an accurate look into what’s feasible for the future. 😉
I would never be so rude about people's work lol I would fix it but not insult them. I had a professor who ripped 1 of my essays to shreds and I told her off lol I had to teach her how to treat students :) I'm harder on people in positions of power.
Nice job sticking up to her. :) Good for you!
The insults are partly cultural. The person mentioned in the example is Asian, and being blunt and harsh is amplified by her sort of upbringing. Not all Te users are like that. Your approach is much better. 🙂
This session is very interesting. Now I can understand more why I considered my sister as an ISFJ. Good job!
Great to hear, @Ackerman!
At 29:40 this explains why I was trying to sell a friend on the idea that they could buy a house with a cheesecake. 🤔
How do children of ISFJ parents know if their parents are being complimentary to them just to be nice or not? I have ISFJ mom and I think constantly telling me how good I am at something is only setting me up for a great fall when I finally confront the real world.
After watching this, I think I can safely say my mother is an ISTJ
My girlfriend is ISFJ and very very good with Ti if they are very smart they can be typed as INTP too but you gotta track the Se and the Ne and you will see you can have a super smart isfj but they still won’t ideate all that much and come up with new links
I actually think Ne relates more to group goals and Ni relates more to personal goals. So all things being equal, an Ne user would think more about things like Climate change, the future of humanity, how to solve world hunger etc. while an Ni user on the other hand would think about, careers goals, personal development, 401k etc.
In general, extroverted functions are group focused while introverted functions are individual focused.
So, I wouldn't be surprised if Isfjs are more group focused in their goals than infjs, although the fact their Ne is inferior might make that less obvious.
I'd say that Ni-Fi is most that way, due to their Ni vision being oriented towards personal goals that their Fi cares about.
The thing is, I've also had ISTJs with Si-Fi tell me they have long term personal goals. SJs desire security, and one of the ways they can achieve that is through long-term planning, such as locking in their retirement & 401k. Especially factoring in their Te-Fi, they are going to want to execute on the goals that are personally important to them.
Whereas with Fe, whether in ISFJs or INFJs, in general it creates a greater concern for group well-being & ensuring they are considering others in goal-orientation.
@@JoyceMeng22 True, those examples can also be linked to the fi-te axis. I am guessing that in the case si doms like istjs, they would care about things like that because they are obligated to do so. Intjs on the other hand might be more willing to forge their own unique path to achieve their goals. That might show up in them investing in unorthodox ways like crypto currencies etc.
I am not completely sure how Ni-Ti personal goals show up.
@@oluchukwuokafor7729 I wouldn’t use lense functions (Ne/Si, Ni/Se) to explain personal goals or group goals, since they are only perceiving data, not interpreting it. That’s up to the judging functions. An Si dom or aux might watch the news and see that Greece is hit hard by wildfires this year and compare and contrast it to late 2019s/early 2020s wildfires in Australia and the wildfires in California in 2020. They then might see a diagram of global temperature rise over the last 50 years and realize that climate change is a global issue, not just a local one. Then, their Ne might activate and see how different issues tracing back to the overarching theme of climate change are interlinked and therefore, coming to a Ti conclusion, require a collaborative solution. Ne users would likely perceive the grand issue of climate change first, then see the connections between different issues, while conjuring up memories of past events. At least, that is my understanding of the functions. I can’t speak on Ni/Se since I don’t use those and Ni is very difficult to really grasp for me.
So to sum up my point, everyone can view problems holistically and individually, the starting point is different, though. Fe and Te users are probably more likely to tackle group issues before personal ones. However, Fi and Ti users can also make it a personal goal to dedicate their talents to the wellbeing of the tribes. Again, different starting points, same conclusion.
@@janaretlow8699 - I think you nailed it.
@@ec8335 Thanks, I‘m glad to hear that :)
The true meow meows of the typology community. /lh
🤣 I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I'm on board.
@@JoyceMeng22 it's cool kids talk to describe "precious (insert term of endearment)" that's been going around haha~
Your dad 😮😮😮 he is missing out lol
Thanks :) 💖