I wish I had found this video sooner. I've had a problem with this phrase for some time, but your argument was far more substantial and convincing than my own.
i personally , like the way to took this topic and explained and put your thoughts into this , it really gets me thinking , and develops the brain in some ways , which is always good,
Great video man and i completely agree with your view on this matter. Loved your editing style and voice over, looking forward to seeing more of your content.
I think this goes both ways. Most people are under the assumption that they feel the need to follow the status quo, so this also applies negatively. A lot of people I know personally dislike something, yet they feel the need to follow the bandwagon and force themselves to like something they don't.
While I don't think anyone should necessarily force themselves to accept something, I do think that people have the ability to appreciate almost anything if they allow themselves to broaden their sense of tastes.
MrAJcosplay But that goes both ways as well. While I don't think anyone should necessarily force themselves to dislike something, I do think that people have the ability to hate almost anything if they allow themselves to step-up their sense of tastes and stop being casuals. xD
Naturally anything can be seen from both sides of the fence but then it becomes a matter of how you want to challenge yourself Maybe I'm an idealist but personally I focus more on the merits that art works have to offer because even if I might personally not like it, that doesn't mean I don't wish to communicate with someone who does.
Great topic discussion dude. I watch series that I like even if it is bad or not through my eyes. The only thing that matters, if I like it. I will continue to watch it.
I had always thought that "Guilty Pleasure" used the word in the meaning of "Guilty as Charged". Essentially answering the question of "oh, you like this questionable thing?" with "yes, I am guilty as charged." a.k.a "yes, it is one of my guilty pleasures."
Basic concept, if you like something don't give it a half assed "oh i only sorta liked it" when someone who doesn't like it asks you what you think of it. You have to stand up for what you like, stand up for what you believe in, and stand up for yourself. That doesn't mean go out and start an argument everytime you like something someone else doesn't, it only means that you shouldn't let the bandwagons and peoples opinions sway how you feel about something. You can easily just say to someone "ok i get you don't like this show, but i found it rather enjoyable, what other shows to do you like?" and just continue the discussion without causing a serious issue. But unfortunately the world seems to think too highly of their own opinions and will fight people to the death to claim superiority on "whos right" when in fact opinions will never be right or wrong. I would continue typing but i realize it will make no difference sense most of the world is too headstrong to take advice or learn anything more than what they choose to learn as right and wrong so i'm done, lecture over, i'll let you get back to your own idealism.
I totally agree! I know several people who claim Aria is bad, because nothing ever happens, and yet when asked, they admit to having liked it. After taking the time to thoroughly think about why I think it's a masterpiece and how it evokes the emotions it does, I can only conclude that people base their criticisms on a predefined concept (story, characters, etc), without taking the time to justify their own reactions, in the event that something may be different from the norm. Now that does not mean that I consider my opinion to be elite, but rather that I feel the arguments given from the "opposing person" are not justified in context even though it is made obvious that the appeal is different from convention.
I think part of the problem we have when addressing art that we know is low quality or not high art, but still enjoy comes from a mixing of impressionism and classical art philosophy. Impressionist philosophy would say that art is in the eye of the beholder and that only subjective interpretations are valid. While classical philosophy would say that only objectified and reined art interpretations are valid.
It's interesting that you bring this up since this video was made based on findings in my art/literary criticism class. Personally I hate perceived objective forms of criticism in any medium since the dynamic of artistic appreciation is always going to be based on bias. We like things because they create an innate appeal to our sense of taste which develops based on our experiences and world views. This can also be applied to the way society perceives art since what's accepted and remembered as "high art" often has to do with the cultural implications, something that is always changing.
Hmm... I can't finger out if your rejecting the bias or just saying that biases are flawed. Because I have a bias to walk on my feet and I make a door for people walking on there feet doesn't mean I have to change my door people who don't walk on there feet. Biases give context and meaning to everything we do at least on some level. But understanding the difficulties of objective criticism can help mitigate the damage of biases and make such criticisms help the art grow. Even if it's only on a technical skill based level objective criticism is great when done well. Just look at Ice skating. It's judged based completely off how well the dancers technical skill. To keep personal down bias down they have 5-10 judges giving a score out of 100-1000 points. And the end result is the growth of the industry and better performances.
Joshua Falck Forgive me if I wasn't clear but I wasn't claiming that I reject bias or find it's foundations flawed. Quite the opposite actually. The main point of this video was to establish that, while there are some guidelines that can be utilized for the purpose of critique and appreciation, at then end of the day bias is what truly gives art it's meaning to an individual. If everything could be 100% quantified then that would defeat the purpose of artistic expression in the first place. If anything I find myself drawn more towards people who embrace their personal bias then those who try to pass it off or ignore it.
Okay then I totally agree with you up to the point of ignoring flaws in artistic expression. After all, I love Aku no Hana but the art style does leave a lot to be desired when it was used in Ping Pong: The Animation. When Aku no Hana looks like crap it almost always supposed to in order to give context and place itself and the audience in the uncanny valley. When Ping Pong did it didn't seem to expresses anything but and motion sickness. Oh and I forgot to say good video.
Thank you for the praise though just to be clear I never said that flaws should be ignored. It's just that sometimes those flaws could be seen as merits when given the appropriate context.
Very well said. I think a lot of people are afraid of saying something outside the norm, juts because of the backlash it may cause. Heck, I really love the Naruto franchise, but saying so in public would make me a "Narutard". You should do more of these rants :D
Eric, there are some things people should feel ashamed for liking... For example gang rape hentai. No one _should_ like that sort of thing, but for whatever reason they do. Most of the time people will feel guilty for liking what others don't, however people shouldn't feel guilty about that if it's not morally or ethically wrong. But, sometimes there are things that no person _should_ like under any sane circumstance. I think it's fine to use the term "Guilty Pleasure" as long as the _thing_ that a person likes goes against their own morals, ethics and values, regardless of general consensus. If you know what you are doing is wrong, but you like doing it fro whatever irrational decision then I think it's fair to call that a "Guilty Pleasure". So depending on the circumstances I don't think you should always consider someone using the term "Guilty Pleasure" as them denying themselves, as sometimes they really well might feel guilty about that something. Great video by the way! Get off your ass and make more! :3
***** being a hentai watcher myself and having my own habits to watch certain things just for the hell like watching a horrible music video i hate just so i can make fun of it , i personally find anything related to rape or anything people make to take "pleasure" seems disgusting and demoralizing , something no one should have pleasure in , normal sexual entertainment is another thing , which is normal and isnt harmful if handled but looking at someones abuse and having fun seems definitely not right,
+Kevin Nyaa Actually there is a theory going around (Well not really theory cause it's backed up by some fact but I'm no expert so) that men specifically enjoy gang rape because sperm competition that causes more sperm production and realese thus leading to greater orgasm. The proven part is that the porn does lead to higher sperm production. just throwing that tid bid out
Lol that's basically kink-shaming, that's retarded. Gang-rape hentai doesn't mean they themselves want to rape or be raped, it's an over the top fantasy. There are even women who like rape-hentai (and they dont want to be raped either). Some people dont understand this for some reason. It's fiction, it's fantasy.
I've always had the urge to say K-ON! is a guilty pleasure of mine... but fuck that, I love K-ON! and I'm a fan of it and I'm not going to be ashamed of it
Awesome short video! It's really interesting you brought this point about the actual motivation and the actual result behind saying the word guilty pleasure. I never actually thought of guilty pleasure as arising from shame/embarrassment if what I construe from your video is correct. I do use this word about some of the shows I watch but it has different connotations for me at least. Guilty pleasure ,in my case, doesn't exactly arise from feeling ashamed about show but rather amusement derived from the "content" itself(typically 'degenerate' in nature) and humorously hypocritical "self awareness"(I may be a bit too vague here so I'll just throw up an example as coherently as I can). For instance, I would say interspecies reviewers is one of my guilty pleasures. As for the content part, I find the morally 'degenerate' plot/concept of the show and it's 4th wall break towards the end of the show quite funny and enjoyable. As for the self awareness part, I basically know that If I were to gauge its merits like art style/animation, or any degree of emotional weight or depth, it is not a show I would typically be enjoying in those aspects and yet here I am enjoying it based on the premise alone and how cleverly they build up the world and the brothel system. And it is not that my argument is around the fact that a show doesn't necessarily need to be continuously plot driven or sth similar but rather its simply about enjoying the show for what it is (if it executes well) while also perhaps humorously shitting on its plot/animation.
Persona Simon I love Gundam Seed. Let's be honest. The Gundam series tells many stories with one core message/philosophy. War is bad. What I love most about Gundam Seed is that it throws away any pretense of subtlety and straight up tells you. As long as the viewer has basic compression of the language in which they're watching the show, they'll get the message. What's the point of a message if people don't get it? I like SAO. I have found an interesting philosophy in it. If the philosophy is intended, the show does a piss poor job of getting the message across. Apparently, people still haven't received Gundam's message. War is still bad, and humans are still fighting and killing each other.
Guilty pleasure is oxymoronic or contradiction the more you think about it. Guilt is something negative while pleasure is something positive, polar opposites. Plus, I personally think the phrase is like you concluded in the video, a poor excuse for why you should not like a certain product because of some form of peer pressure or some perceived standard your community holds. Love your video, and hope you do more. Thanks!
I understand the gripes you have, and I agree people shouldn't feel guilty for consuming media widely seen as unworthy, but I still think it's important for people to acknowledge the biases they may have going into something that affect their enjoyment, that makes the show more enjoyable to them without a justifiable reason for it to improve the shows (even subjective) quality. That doesn't mean their enjoyment and love of the show is invalid, just that they're aware of the biases they have. For instance, someone watching a show and getting a lot of their enjoyment out of finding characters attractive should, in my opinion, acknowledge that a lot of said enjoyment comes from their personal bias of sexual attraction, so as not to falsely credit writing, animation, effort and thought put into the show. Whilst I agree that guilt might be the wrong term to use, I think 'guilty pleasure' as an expression can be used to acknowledge when your enjoyment of something is biased, or when you enjoy something you don't necessarily respect or see much quality in. I also think the expression will loose it's meaning, as it becomes more to do with recognising bias than actually feeling ashamed, much like many modern day expressions are based on old fashioned ideas we don't relate them to.
Well as much as I love Nyaruko San it's hard for me to recommenced as most of the comedy is very subjective to otaku/pop culture. I guess in that way I feel bad about not sharing it but not really.
Most comedy is subjective in general. But yea Nyaruko does focus more on high energized reference humor which isn't a bad thing. Just make sure that the person you recommend the show to has the ability to pick up the meta elements.
This was a very good video, with a great discussion on why guilty pleasure is at times a cop out. However, I don't think guilty pleasures should be fully removed. For example, usually when I have a guilty pleasure it has crap everything except for presentation. That's why I call it a guilty pleasure, because despite the awful story and bland characters it still portrays it in a way that makes it enjoyable and fun to watch. But fun is a very subjective experience, and sometimes we should feel a bit guilty for having fun in certain ways.
I guess in that regard it's true, guilty pleasure is kind of a misnomer. It honestly sounds like it was supposed to describe something similar to masturbation, in that it gives people pleasure, but they feel guilty because of moral standards set by society. But there's nothing wrong with either of those circumstances, sure it's just self-gratification, but people should be willing to do things for themselves if they like something.
leafbladie Personally I watch anime entirely for self gratification rather than to articulate an objective standard as suppose to what's appropriate or not (though I'd argue such a standard doesn't exist anyway). If I like something, have a reason for liking something, and it doesn't go against my personal sense of morals then I think feeling guilty is just stupid.
Well true, we all watch something for entertainment even if we do want a challenging work. bBut if something does something offensive our of stupidity, like being sexist, but we still enjoy it despite that, we should acknowledge those flaws. I mean I don't think I could fully feel not guilty about enjoying something with a terrible message.
While I agree, I will admit to having guilty pleasures not for the community but for me. I really really like Akame ga Kill's manga. Does it suck, I could seee why people say so but I find it to be a truck load of fun. However, I would never call it a guilty pleasure. Actually... I don't have anime I'd call guilty pleasures regardless of what anyone else has to sa-! Wait! I remembered one. Sekai Ichi Hatsukoi. It used ti be a guilty pleasure because I myself have many problems with it and think of it disdainfully but I enjoyed it. I don't enjoy it anymore. It used to be a guilty pleasure for me. I mean I like yaoi, but SIH isjust something that should not be supported.
I think this is the jist of what he's trying to say, but I don't like the term guilty pleasure either. I don't feel guilty for the entertainment I enjoy. Anyone who thinks what I like is lame or childish or whatever can get bent. Similarly I don't see the appeal in everything. I think some stuff is trash, but if you like it then fuck me and my opinion. Everything is good to some body. Those who would try to shame the taste of others are losers.
I think my definition of guilty pleasure is different which is something I like but others might not agree like I mean I like fairy tail but not everyone would say it’s good but me and other fans
A lot of what you say stems from what I consider a bad definition of ‘guilty pleasures’, that being that the guilt is based on outside consensus. I define it by what you personally consider bad, if you enjoy something that by all reasons contradicts your own sense of taste, it is a guilty pleasure. Gate is a pretty bad anime, most moments are not very engaging for me and the characters, the MC most of all fall into overused and basic archetypes. It is nothing more than escapist fantasy, a thing I dislike overall when in isolation, yet those handful of moments sprinkled throughout make me hesitant to hate it all-together.
For me when I use the term "guilty pleasure" I tend to use it as a term to describe a show that I can sit there and just tear apart because for the most part it's pretty bad, but I still find enjoyment. An example of this for me would be Fairy Tail as I could really have a field day picking apart how bad that show is, but yet I have and probably will carry on watching it because there is something that is just enjoyable about it.
The purpose of art isn't to please the viewer. I agree with you that "guilty pleasure" is a problematic term. We shouldn't feel *guilty* about enjoying things, and to do so is to fall into a particular kind of social trap. But, there are definitely different kinds of appreciation in play here. When someone says "guilty pleasure" they usually mean that something delivers pleasure through prurient channels (sexual titillation, violence, drama, suspense) while either using technically unrefined techniques to those ends (i.e., "cheap" techniques like cliffhangers) or foregoing general quality in favor of only those prurient qualities that sell the material to an audience (like round characters and plots that make sense). This is something that is worth specifying when, for instance, making recommendations -- not everybody gets off on ultraviolence but if you do then you're quite likely to like anything with ultraviolence regardless of its other attributes, and likewise with (for instance) suspense. There's a further complication in that some things marked as "guilty pleasures" actually are extremely well-made in other ways, but deliver enough enjoyment through prurient channels that people don't initially realize the other qualities. For instance, Space Dandy delivers what appears to be wacky action-comedy, and only on closer inspection does one realize that the plotting is tight, the art is great, the sound is great, and there's an interesting and complex philosophical dimension and meta-story. Monster Musume is clearly put together to pander to people who have a fetish for monster girls and largely takes tropes wholesale from harem/romance-comedy cliches, yet a bit of examination will demonstrate that its premise was carefully constructed and thought out in a way that is not true for other more ostensibly high-end fantasy-harem shows (like Maburaho, Love Hina, and... well, pretty much every one I can think of). This particular kind of show I like to call "a higher grade of crap", but technically it's literally superior in every way -- it has the technical excellence of a high-end 'serious' show while delivering more of what all by itself keeps less well-made shows afloat.
+John Ohno While I will not lie that there are more then enough shows that are clearly made to pander audiences using simple desires such as sexual gratification, I wouldn't immediately label these shows as "bad" but then again that's just me. One of my favorite mangas, for example, opens up with the main heroin masturbating. I read it for the very reasons you specified in your comment yet not once did I feel a shred of guilt. The show ended up having a much more grounded and depressing story, mind you, but it also knew the elements it was playing with. The problem is that a certain degree of quality can be found in anything. People just don't want to take the work to do it (like with Space Dandy). Even if that quality might seem small or not appeal to me, that doesn't mean it won't to someone else and if it does........if that other persons life is made better by being exposed to that show, then what gives me the right to call it bad? When I said the purpose of art is to please the individual, I didn't JUST mean base titillation. I meant that art is suppose to emotionally resonate with us as individuals BEFORE it resonates with a culture. We should take pride in that pleasure and the things that make us happy because it's part of what make us who we are doesn't it?
let me stop yyou there; guilty pleasure is something you prolly wouldnt watch around other people. Boku no pico for instance. or for me Elfin lied. the English Language is never as strictly by the definition. our language is kinda a Frankenstein creation like that. its not that I think Elfin lied is bad- I love it obviously- but for me to put it on in front of others would be incredibly selfish because its style and appeal to me is brash gore and completely perverted. even if i was to watch it with others i would feel bad if they felt uncomfortable because of that. Hence; id feel guilty.
The difference lies in whether or not you think you're enjoying it for the right or wrong reasons. Enjoying Boku no Pico for how absurd it is sounds like the right reason to enjoy it to me. Enjoying Teen Titans Go because it's easy to riff on, sounds like the right reason to enjoy it to me. This is ironic enjoyment, not guilty pleasure. If you can't even explain why you like something or you think you enjoy something for the wrong reason (like unironically enjoying the stupid as hell sexual humor in Boku No Pico, or worse... Er.. Nope. not going to say that) then it's a guilty pleasure.
"Guilty Pleasure" doesn't mean, "I liked it even though I'm not supposed to." It means, "I liked it for shallow reasons." or "I liked it even though it's riddled with issues which usually kill a show for me." or simply, "I like it, but I cannot defend it." A perfect example of this is Justice League. I liked it because I got to hear the Elfman Batman theme again, and see Superman finally act like the character I've come to love over the years... also freeze breath. From a more objective standpoint, Justice League suffers from a lot of the same problems as Suicide Squad, a film I passionately despise, but I still like it for admittedly very shallow and kind of stupid reasons. So I call Justice League a guilty pleasure not because it isn't popular to like DCEU movies, but because even though it's riddled with issues that have killed other films for me, and I could never be called upon to defend it, I still had a good time watching this broken little movie.
Guilty Pleasure: I know it's poor quality. Like eating fast food instead of a well balanced meal. A shallow plot, bad acting, maybe mediocre dialogue. Maybe it's a cutesy show about friendship you watch despite finding the mass of humanity disgusting and friendship a sham but you watch anyway so you can pretend for a goddamn moment that the people you trusted haven't systematically abused and betrayed your trust over the course of a decade. Or sub par animation. But there are things I occasionally like watching that give me a mild sense of guilt, like doing something I know I shouldn't be doing, but in a fun sort of way.
I disagree. The expression 'guilty pleasure' makes a lot of sense, given the fact that art actually can help you some way developing into a better person. Quality stories can help you be more knowledgeable, intellectually sharper, more emphatic and even morally better. A good story can give your powers of imagination a boost and make you a better, more interesting and more fun conversationalist. Crap stories gives you little of these benefits - but they might give you dumb relaxing pleasure. And that is okay. But you know you could be doing better things with your time, so some might feel a little guilty about that. I find it a amusing actually, that someone like you would pretend not to realize such a simple concept. Of course you get what the deal is about. It's pretty plain, and you don't seem to be a complete dummy :-)
+GhostlyJorg That's some bullshit philosophy you invented yourself, lmao it's so arbitrary it can't be how other people even define "guilty pleasure", yet you say it's simple. Something making you better person etc has nothing to do with piece of media being good or not.
Frozenkex@ How would you define "guilty pleasure"? - Why would people feel "guilt" in some small way for watching crap entertainment if there wasn't an element in it about them potentially doing something more worthwhile with their time? - As I say, this 'more worthwhile' could be enjoying better art, but it could be other stuff, like pursuing education, helping others, attaining life goals, spending quality time with the people you love and so on. - Of course you could feel guilty for wasting your time with superficial pop culture. Makes perfect sense
For me, a guilty pleasure is something I find to be low in quality but I enjoy to watch it for whatever reason, Example Freddy got fingered. It's a horrible movie, I can pick out more scenes that make me cringe then make me laugh but I still enjoy watching and own the DVD. Me calling it a guilty pleasure isn't me conforming to the viewpoints of others but me essentially separating it from other better works I enjoy.
I can agree with some points but all throughout this I think you miss one major, extremely important point when looking at why we label things "guilty pleasures" and that is the objectively important qualities of something and what that something is trying to achieve. For example: I consider SAO a guilty pleasure. The first half was fun to watch and the stories themselves were pretty interesting as far as I was concerned but the entire world lacked any cohesiveness, the plot was completely irrelevant for almost the entire series, the main character was lacking in literally every other and the side characters only personality traits were 'we're friends with the protagonist.' Yes, some people overuse guilty pleasure but most people won't. Many can tell if a show is objectively bad and can explain why they subjectively still enjoy watching it. The first time I even thought of something as a guilty pleasure was when I watched Angel Beats forever ago. I loved the show and the setting but I had enough self-awareness to realize that most of the characters were flat and one-dimensional and that the plots resolution not only didn't make any sense but also was extremely rushed just to try and finish up the series. The reason we feel guilty for watching these is because we KNOW they are poorly made and, objectively, bad anime and the guilt comes from the fact that we COULD be spending our time watching something that was objectively good. We don't feel bad for liking it, we feel bad because we could be spending time on something better and we know it.
+Mischievous Roze The best rebuttal I can give to this comment is a simple question: What do we consider to be an objectively good or objectively bad piece of media? We could say that a show needs to have animation of a certain standard in order to be considered "good". But what about shows that may intentionally look bad to serve a greater thematic or symbolic purpose in the narrative? We could say that a show needs to be progressive in order to be good. Then does that mean that any anime that isn't like Cowboy Bebop or Evangelion is objectively not good? Does it matter if a show has no cultural relevance? Isn't art suppose to speak to people on an individual level before a universal one? I mention in the video that I don't think there objective standard of quality with regards to appreciating art because no matter what kind of guideline you try to set, at some point you're going to find an exception. Even some of the most hated shows in the community will still have that dedicated fanbase that thinks it's a work of genus and on the inverse, you're always going to find people that think the "classics" aren't even that good. "Many can tell if a show is objectively bad and can explain why they subjectively still enjoy watching it" is a statement I strongly disagree with. No one really has the right to point at something and say "that is an objectively bad piece of media and anyone who likes it should feel guilty". Not even critics really have that right. All people can do is explain what they liked about a show and what they didn't. Lets take a look at your own examples. You perfectly explained what you liked and disliked about SAO and Angel Beats. Despite their flaws, you still finished them and found some degree of quality that kept you going whether it be the setting or the individual side stories. Now what you liked/disliked about the show could be completely different to other people but that doesn't make their standards for quality any better then yours. Now if you feel like there are better shows worth watching at the end of the day then more power to you. We all have a little chart in our heads concerning what we think is better. BUT I think it's important to note that those charts are different depending on the person and we shouldn't feel guilty about our own.
+Bobbi-Ann Matheson I think it's important to note that a "rushed plot" and "mediocre comedy" are entirely subjective ideas like most elements that go into creating an art form. If a show is meant to be steadfast by nature, then a fast paced plot can be seen as a properly grounded narrative form. Plus if you don't find a shows brand of humor funny, does that make the show flawed? Maybe to you since, personally the show isn't achieving its intended goal but what if the style of humor resonates with someone else? One Punch Man is a beautiful looking show, employing some of the best key animators in the business. You shouldn't feel "suckered in" by it. You should be happy that a show looks good enough to keep you watching if just for its aesthetics alone. If you're deriving pleasure from something for a specific, understandable reason and it's not at the expense of anyone else. why should you feel guilty?
MrAJcosplay Your question is invalid as it was already answered within my comment. *"and what that something is trying to achieve."* You also fall into the biggest mistake anyone can make, thinking that objective qualities are actually just subjective ones because A FEW people don't understand them. There will ALWAYS be an objective right in art, you can become great by properly going against what is considered objectively right but just outright failing to do what is objectively right is failing, not making a new style.
+Mischievous Roze You're "answer" specifically said "and that is the objectively important qualities of something AND what that something is trying to achieve". Let's start with the latter. What a work is trying to achieve will vary from person to person. In fact I even made a video discussing the numerous, yet non-infinite, ways that we can appreciate what a work may be trying to achieve. You could always ask a creator what his vision was but if that clashes with what you thought the art was trying to achieve or did achieve, then does that make you wrong? Now let us get to the former. You seem to believe that there is this objective standard that art needs to reach in order to be "good" and that if said standard isn't met, then the work itself has failed. If you don't mind me asking, who exactly created this standard? You make it sound like MOST people already know what it is and that anyone who doesn't seems to just be lost. Is there a list of commandments somewhere that acts as a checklist? And if it's REALLY that easy, then why don't more creators do it? Even if you can give me an answer that is satisfying, your second comment just raises another question. You said that an art can become great by going against what is considered objectively right. But isn't that a contradiction when you say that if it misses the mark then it fails? What's the difference between "going against" and "failing" exactly? What if the distinction between the two varies from person to person?
MrAJcosplay Um. No. What something is trying to achieve is decided by the creator. I won't read anything past your first few comments. Theres really no point. You think the world revolves around you and that every creation isn't from a creator but rather owned by any dumbass that decides to watch it. We have legitimate ways to critique things based on objective standards. No matter how many times people like you come up and say "but I don't like objectivity" it will never change anything. You will always be wrong. When you start with an opinion that is objectively wrong, theres really no reason to continue discussion.
1:39 My guilty pleasures appeal to my tastes _subjectively_ . I'm not even going to try to defend most of them. That's how guilty pleasures are _supposed_ to work, they're something you enjoy subjectively while understanding that it's objectively garbage..
On the contrary, a guilty pleasure is about liking something *_IN SPITE OF_* it being garbage. If there's one thing they're not about, they're definately not about having valid, sustainable opinions.
I will strongly disagree, I love some really bad shiet, but not because all of them are bad in critic eyes, but I can see why they are bad under my own taste and eyes. They're shiet my because they're shiet for me, even if I like them
If you like it , is it really so bad? It seems like cognitive dissonance, you force yourself to accept that it's bad by some arbitrary standards created by critics or yourself, while still finding aspects of it appealing, meaning it has aspects that are good enough for you to like it and enjoy it. Try to adapt different philosophy - things that are bad are things that you dont like.
Why? Something that is bad is not necesary something I disagrace nor that I am ashame of. Is not like I'm not enjoying it and then say "this is bad". I am enjoying it because it is bad, that fact make's it enjoyable, if it were mediocre I would discart it as suck. "Bad: no good" seems very sad, If I were to agree to that, I'll just have to give up anime because it wastes my time; Yes, that is a fact, but it's something I enjoy, by me putting it over better stuff, productive stuff, for me, like eating, I gave it priority. It is not arbitrary it is a hard fact
![GEEK TIMË [OFFICIAL AUDIO]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ry-6RvkH880/mqdefault.jpg)
I wish I had found this video sooner. I've had a problem with this phrase for some time, but your argument was far more substantial and convincing than my own.
This video is a guilty pleasure of mine.... Ok jokes over - I really enjoyed this video - good topic to tackle!
I'm not worth of such praise from our lord and savior
WHAT DOES JERRY THINK OF THE VIDEO?
At the end of the day, my taste is objectively better and you should only like the shows I like, okay, Eric?
Well I wish I knew that sooner. You have any idea how much time I could have saved?
MrAJcosplay I expect your review of IdolM@ster on my desk by Friday.
***** wow, an im@s review, seriously?
This is.......basically how I feel about myself liking Sword Art Online
jayblade2000 so you like it in general and not as guilty pleasure
N O S H A M E :)
i personally , like the way to took this topic and explained and put your thoughts into this , it really gets me thinking , and develops the brain in some ways , which is always good,
Great video man and i completely agree with your view on this matter.
Loved your editing style and voice over, looking forward to seeing more of your content.
I think this goes both ways. Most people are under the assumption that they feel the need to follow the status quo, so this also applies negatively. A lot of people I know personally dislike something, yet they feel the need to follow the bandwagon and force themselves to like something they don't.
While I don't think anyone should necessarily force themselves to accept something, I do think that people have the ability to appreciate almost anything if they allow themselves to broaden their sense of tastes.
MrAJcosplay But that goes both ways as well. While I don't think anyone should necessarily force themselves to dislike something, I do think that people have the ability to hate almost anything if they allow themselves to step-up their sense of tastes and stop being casuals. xD
Naturally anything can be seen from both sides of the fence but then it becomes a matter of how you want to challenge yourself
Maybe I'm an idealist but personally I focus more on the merits that art works have to offer because even if I might personally not like it, that doesn't mean I don't wish to communicate with someone who does.
Great topic discussion dude. I watch series that I like even if it is bad or not through my eyes. The only thing that matters, if I like it. I will continue to watch it.
Thanks Ben ^.^
I had always thought that "Guilty Pleasure" used the word in the meaning of "Guilty as Charged". Essentially answering the question of "oh, you like this questionable thing?" with "yes, I am guilty as charged." a.k.a "yes, it is one of my guilty pleasures."
Basic concept, if you like something don't give it a half assed "oh i only sorta liked it" when someone who doesn't like it asks you what you think of it. You have to stand up for what you like, stand up for what you believe in, and stand up for yourself. That doesn't mean go out and start an argument everytime you like something someone else doesn't, it only means that you shouldn't let the bandwagons and peoples opinions sway how you feel about something. You can easily just say to someone "ok i get you don't like this show, but i found it rather enjoyable, what other shows to do you like?" and just continue the discussion without causing a serious issue. But unfortunately the world seems to think too highly of their own opinions and will fight people to the death to claim superiority on "whos right" when in fact opinions will never be right or wrong.
I would continue typing but i realize it will make no difference sense most of the world is too headstrong to take advice or learn anything more than what they choose to learn as right and wrong so i'm done, lecture over, i'll let you get back to your own idealism.
0:39 Maybe, but almost everyone wants to purposely _make_ someone feel guilty for liking the "wrong" thing.
I totally agree! I know several people who claim Aria is bad, because nothing ever happens, and yet when asked, they admit to having liked it. After taking the time to thoroughly think about why I think it's a masterpiece and how it evokes the emotions it does, I can only conclude that people base their criticisms on a predefined concept (story, characters, etc), without taking the time to justify their own reactions, in the event that something may be different from the norm.
Now that does not mean that I consider my opinion to be elite, but rather that I feel the arguments given from the "opposing person" are not justified in context even though it is made obvious that the appeal is different from convention.
I think part of the problem we have when addressing art that we know is low quality or not high art, but still enjoy comes from a mixing of impressionism and classical art philosophy. Impressionist philosophy would say that art is in the eye of the beholder and that only subjective interpretations are valid. While classical philosophy would say that only objectified and reined art interpretations are valid.
It's interesting that you bring this up since this video was made based on findings in my art/literary criticism class. Personally I hate perceived objective forms of criticism in any medium since the dynamic of artistic appreciation is always going to be based on bias. We like things because they create an innate appeal to our sense of taste which develops based on our experiences and world views.
This can also be applied to the way society perceives art since what's accepted and remembered as "high art" often has to do with the cultural implications, something that is always changing.
Hmm... I can't finger out if your rejecting the bias or just saying that biases are flawed. Because I have a bias to walk on my feet and I make a door for people walking on there feet doesn't mean I have to change my door people who don't walk on there feet. Biases give context and meaning to everything we do at least on some level.
But understanding the difficulties of objective criticism can help mitigate the damage of biases and make such criticisms help the art grow. Even if it's only on a technical skill based level objective criticism is great when done well. Just look at Ice skating. It's judged based completely off how well the dancers technical skill. To keep personal down bias down they have 5-10 judges giving a score out of 100-1000 points. And the end result is the growth of the industry and better performances.
Joshua Falck Forgive me if I wasn't clear but I wasn't claiming that I reject bias or find it's foundations flawed. Quite the opposite actually. The main point of this video was to establish that, while there are some guidelines that can be utilized for the purpose of critique and appreciation, at then end of the day bias is what truly gives art it's meaning to an individual. If everything could be 100% quantified then that would defeat the purpose of artistic expression in the first place.
If anything I find myself drawn more towards people who embrace their personal bias then those who try to pass it off or ignore it.
Okay then I totally agree with you up to the point of ignoring flaws in artistic expression. After all, I love Aku no Hana but the art style does leave a lot to be desired when it was used in Ping Pong: The Animation. When Aku no Hana looks like crap it almost always supposed to in order to give context and place itself and the audience in the uncanny valley. When Ping Pong did it didn't seem to expresses anything but and motion sickness.
Oh and I forgot to say good video.
Thank you for the praise though just to be clear I never said that flaws should be ignored. It's just that sometimes those flaws could be seen as merits when given the appropriate context.
I really have to thank you for making this video, I was trying to improve my morals and insight and I think this video will help greatly
Very well said. I think a lot of people are afraid of saying something outside the norm, juts because of the backlash it may cause. Heck, I really love the Naruto franchise, but saying so in public would make me a "Narutard". You should do more of these rants :D
Thanks man :)
I think I'm a bit better suited for these types of videos
Eric, there are some things people should feel ashamed for liking... For example gang rape hentai. No one _should_ like that sort of thing, but for whatever reason they do. Most of the time people will feel guilty for liking what others don't, however people shouldn't feel guilty about that if it's not morally or ethically wrong. But, sometimes there are things that no person _should_ like under any sane circumstance. I think it's fine to use the term "Guilty Pleasure" as long as the _thing_ that a person likes goes against their own morals, ethics and values, regardless of general consensus. If you know what you are doing is wrong, but you like doing it fro whatever irrational decision then I think it's fair to call that a "Guilty Pleasure". So depending on the circumstances I don't think you should always consider someone using the term "Guilty Pleasure" as them denying themselves, as sometimes they really well might feel guilty about that something. Great video by the way! Get off your ass and make more! :3
Helter skelter is an example of gang rape hentai shit made me hate it so much that i wanted to hurt the creator of the hentai
***** being a hentai watcher myself and having my own habits to watch certain things just for the hell like watching a horrible music video i hate just so i can make fun of it , i personally find anything related to rape or anything people make to take "pleasure" seems disgusting and demoralizing , something no one should have pleasure in , normal sexual entertainment is another thing , which is normal and isnt harmful if handled but looking at someones abuse and having fun seems definitely not right,
+Kevin Nyaa Actually there is a theory going around (Well not really theory cause it's backed up by some fact but I'm no expert so) that men specifically enjoy gang rape because sperm competition that causes more sperm production and realese thus leading to greater orgasm. The proven part is that the porn does lead to higher sperm production. just throwing that tid bid out
Lol that's basically kink-shaming, that's retarded. Gang-rape hentai doesn't mean they themselves want to rape or be raped, it's an over the top fantasy. There are even women who like rape-hentai (and they dont want to be raped either). Some people dont understand this for some reason. It's fiction, it's fantasy.
Got me to think about my over-use of this term. Thanks for enlightening me! ;)
David Jimenez just happy to help :)
I've always had the urge to say K-ON! is a guilty pleasure of mine... but fuck that, I love K-ON! and I'm a fan of it and I'm not going to be ashamed of it
Awesome short video! It's really interesting you brought this point about the actual motivation and the actual result behind saying the word guilty pleasure. I never actually thought of guilty pleasure as arising from shame/embarrassment if what I construe from your video is correct. I do use this word about some of the shows I watch but it has different connotations for me at least. Guilty pleasure ,in my case, doesn't exactly arise from feeling ashamed about show but rather amusement derived from the "content" itself(typically 'degenerate' in nature) and humorously hypocritical "self awareness"(I may be a bit too vague here so I'll just throw up an example as coherently as I can).
For instance, I would say interspecies reviewers is one of my guilty pleasures. As for the content part, I find the morally 'degenerate' plot/concept of the show and it's 4th wall break towards the end of the show quite funny and enjoyable. As for the self awareness part, I basically know that If I were to gauge its merits like art style/animation, or any degree of emotional weight or depth, it is not a show I would typically be enjoying in those aspects and yet here I am enjoying it based on the premise alone and how cleverly they build up the world and the brothel system. And it is not that my argument is around the fact that a show doesn't necessarily need to be continuously plot driven or sth similar but rather its simply about enjoying the show for what it is (if it executes well) while also perhaps humorously shitting on its plot/animation.
I'm also going to prove to everyone that K-On is the best show ever. Those who disagree will be forced to feel guilty.
are you digibro?
pretty much completely agree
I like Gundam Seed Destiny (hides in a corner)
Fuck, I love Gundam Seed Destiny! Am I supposed to be hiding in a corner too?
I like super milk chan. (Joins in corner)
Persona Simon
I love Gundam Seed.
Let's be honest. The Gundam series tells many stories with one core message/philosophy. War is bad.
What I love most about Gundam Seed is that it throws away any pretense of subtlety and straight up tells you. As long as the viewer has basic compression of the language in which they're watching the show, they'll get the message.
What's the point of a message if people don't get it? I like SAO. I have found an interesting philosophy in it. If the philosophy is intended, the show does a piss poor job of getting the message across.
Apparently, people still haven't received Gundam's message. War is still bad, and humans are still fighting and killing each other.
Guilty pleasure is oxymoronic or contradiction the more you think about it. Guilt is something negative while pleasure is something positive, polar opposites. Plus, I personally think the phrase is like you concluded in the video, a poor excuse for why you should not like a certain product because of some form of peer pressure or some perceived standard your community holds. Love your video, and hope you do more. Thanks!
Am i the only fucking one without a galaxy intro now???
Btw great video eric.
Thanks man ^.^
Don't worry about the intro, your editing still puts mine to shame
Don't worry AverageAnimeFan I haven't as well. What's up with this GEN 1 hate?
I understand the gripes you have, and I agree people shouldn't feel guilty for consuming media widely seen as unworthy, but I still think it's important for people to acknowledge the biases they may have going into something that affect their enjoyment, that makes the show more enjoyable to them without a justifiable reason for it to improve the shows (even subjective) quality. That doesn't mean their enjoyment and love of the show is invalid, just that they're aware of the biases they have. For instance, someone watching a show and getting a lot of their enjoyment out of finding characters attractive should, in my opinion, acknowledge that a lot of said enjoyment comes from their personal bias of sexual attraction, so as not to falsely credit writing, animation, effort and thought put into the show. Whilst I agree that guilt might be the wrong term to use, I think 'guilty pleasure' as an expression can be used to acknowledge when your enjoyment of something is biased, or when you enjoy something you don't necessarily respect or see much quality in. I also think the expression will loose it's meaning, as it becomes more to do with recognising bias than actually feeling ashamed, much like many modern day expressions are based on old fashioned ideas we don't relate them to.
I love Haiyore Nyaruko San, and I'm not guilty of it at all...
Nice concise rant here. :)
Why would you? Nyaruko is hilarious XD
Well as much as I love Nyaruko San it's hard for me to recommenced as most of the comedy is very subjective to otaku/pop culture. I guess in that way I feel bad about not sharing it but not really.
Most comedy is subjective in general. But yea Nyaruko does focus more on high energized reference humor which isn't a bad thing. Just make sure that the person you recommend the show to has the ability to pick up the meta elements.
Not a lot of people like that in my daily life.
This was a very good video, with a great discussion on why guilty pleasure is at times a cop out. However, I don't think guilty pleasures should be fully removed. For example, usually when I have a guilty pleasure it has crap everything except for presentation. That's why I call it a guilty pleasure, because despite the awful story and bland characters it still portrays it in a way that makes it enjoyable and fun to watch. But fun is a very subjective experience, and sometimes we should feel a bit guilty for having fun in certain ways.
But if that fun doesn't come at the expense of effecting anyone else, then my question is WHY should you feel guilty at all???
I guess in that regard it's true, guilty pleasure is kind of a misnomer. It honestly sounds like it was supposed to describe something similar to masturbation, in that it gives people pleasure, but they feel guilty because of moral standards set by society. But there's nothing wrong with either of those circumstances, sure it's just self-gratification, but people should be willing to do things for themselves if they like something.
leafbladie Personally I watch anime entirely for self gratification rather than to articulate an objective standard as suppose to what's appropriate or not (though I'd argue such a standard doesn't exist anyway). If I like something, have a reason for liking something, and it doesn't go against my personal sense of morals then I think feeling guilty is just stupid.
Well true, we all watch something for entertainment even if we do want a challenging work. bBut if something does something offensive our of stupidity, like being sexist, but we still enjoy it despite that, we should acknowledge those flaws. I mean I don't think I could fully feel not guilty about enjoying something with a terrible message.
the only thing that I have ever said is my guilty pleasure, is watching the show, My 600 Pound life.
Many people do include the moral sense of guilty in how they use this phrase. They enjoy a show even though they morally disapprove of it.
While I agree, I will admit to having guilty pleasures not for the community but for me.
I really really like Akame ga Kill's manga. Does it suck, I could seee why people say so but I find it to be a truck load of fun. However, I would never call it a guilty pleasure.
Actually... I don't have anime I'd call guilty pleasures regardless of what anyone else has to sa-! Wait! I remembered one. Sekai Ichi Hatsukoi. It used ti be a guilty pleasure because I myself have many problems with it and think of it disdainfully but I enjoyed it. I don't enjoy it anymore. It used to be a guilty pleasure for me.
I mean I like yaoi, but SIH isjust something that should not be supported.
I think this is the jist of what he's trying to say, but I don't like the term guilty pleasure either. I don't feel guilty for the entertainment I enjoy. Anyone who thinks what I like is lame or childish or whatever can get bent. Similarly I don't see the appeal in everything. I think some stuff is trash, but if you like it then fuck me and my opinion. Everything is good to some body. Those who would try to shame the taste of others are losers.
I think my definition of guilty pleasure is different which is something I like but others might not agree like I mean I like fairy tail but not everyone would say it’s good but me and other fans
Spends an entire video talking about art. Ending title screen can be summed up by the word "boobs".
Putting all my sarcasm aside though, nice video!
haha the human body is but another thing to appreciate. Thank you ^.^
What happened to your other videos
Which videos???
A lot of what you say stems from what I consider a bad definition of ‘guilty pleasures’, that being that the guilt is based on outside consensus. I define it by what you personally consider bad, if you enjoy something that by all reasons contradicts your own sense of taste, it is a guilty pleasure. Gate is a pretty bad anime, most moments are not very engaging for me and the characters, the MC most of all fall into overused and basic archetypes. It is nothing more than escapist fantasy, a thing I dislike overall when in isolation, yet those handful of moments sprinkled throughout make me hesitant to hate it all-together.
That’s where your wrong kiddo 👉🏻
Let me be honest with you
If you love Cynthia, then you are my bro
HighSchool DxD is my Guilty Pleasures
Any anime that's not action is a guilty pleasure to western anime fans.
I didn't get it...
For me when I use the term "guilty pleasure" I tend to use it as a term to describe a show that I can sit there and just tear apart because for the most part it's pretty bad, but I still find enjoyment. An example of this for me would be Fairy Tail as I could really have a field day picking apart how bad that show is, but yet I have and probably will carry on watching it because there is something that is just enjoyable about it.
So, would it be accurate to say anime that make sexual jokes towards Lolis are Guilty Pleasures because you feel morally wrong for liking it?
The purpose of art isn't to please the viewer.
I agree with you that "guilty pleasure" is a problematic term. We shouldn't feel *guilty* about enjoying things, and to do so is to fall into a particular kind of social trap. But, there are definitely different kinds of appreciation in play here.
When someone says "guilty pleasure" they usually mean that something delivers pleasure through prurient channels (sexual titillation, violence, drama, suspense) while either using technically unrefined techniques to those ends (i.e., "cheap" techniques like cliffhangers) or foregoing general quality in favor of only those prurient qualities that sell the material to an audience (like round characters and plots that make sense). This is something that is worth specifying when, for instance, making recommendations -- not everybody gets off on ultraviolence but if you do then you're quite likely to like anything with ultraviolence regardless of its other attributes, and likewise with (for instance) suspense.
There's a further complication in that some things marked as "guilty pleasures" actually are extremely well-made in other ways, but deliver enough enjoyment through prurient channels that people don't initially realize the other qualities. For instance, Space Dandy delivers what appears to be wacky action-comedy, and only on closer inspection does one realize that the plotting is tight, the art is great, the sound is great, and there's an interesting and complex philosophical dimension and meta-story. Monster Musume is clearly put together to pander to people who have a fetish for monster girls and largely takes tropes wholesale from harem/romance-comedy cliches, yet a bit of examination will demonstrate that its premise was carefully constructed and thought out in a way that is not true for other more ostensibly high-end fantasy-harem shows (like Maburaho, Love Hina, and... well, pretty much every one I can think of). This particular kind of show I like to call "a higher grade of crap", but technically it's literally superior in every way -- it has the technical excellence of a high-end 'serious' show while delivering more of what all by itself keeps less well-made shows afloat.
+John Ohno While I will not lie that there are more then enough shows that are clearly made to pander audiences using simple desires such as sexual gratification, I wouldn't immediately label these shows as "bad" but then again that's just me. One of my favorite mangas, for example, opens up with the main heroin masturbating. I read it for the very reasons you specified in your comment yet not once did I feel a shred of guilt. The show ended up having a much more grounded and depressing story, mind you, but it also knew the elements it was playing with.
The problem is that a certain degree of quality can be found in anything. People just don't want to take the work to do it (like with Space Dandy). Even if that quality might seem small or not appeal to me, that doesn't mean it won't to someone else and if it does........if that other persons life is made better by being exposed to that show, then what gives me the right to call it bad? When I said the purpose of art is to please the individual, I didn't JUST mean base titillation. I meant that art is suppose to emotionally resonate with us as individuals BEFORE it resonates with a culture. We should take pride in that pleasure and the things that make us happy because it's part of what make us who we are doesn't it?
Why is Evangelion on your list of buzzwords?
Personally I've had bad experiences with the original Eva franchise and its hardcore fans.
wow you cants stand evangelion? well i love k-on and evangelion, i consider both of them my 2 favorite anime.
let me stop yyou there;
guilty pleasure is something you prolly wouldnt watch around other people. Boku no pico for instance.
or for me Elfin lied.
the English Language is never as strictly by the definition. our language is kinda a Frankenstein creation like that.
its not that I think Elfin lied is bad- I love it obviously- but for me to put it on in front of others would be incredibly selfish because its style and appeal to me is brash gore and completely perverted. even if i was to watch it with others i would feel bad if they felt uncomfortable because of that. Hence; id feel guilty.
Not going to lie, Boku no Pico sounds like more of an ironic enjoyment than a guilty pleasure.
The difference lies in whether or not you think you're enjoying it for the right or wrong reasons. Enjoying Boku no Pico for how absurd it is sounds like the right reason to enjoy it to me. Enjoying Teen Titans Go because it's easy to riff on, sounds like the right reason to enjoy it to me. This is ironic enjoyment, not guilty pleasure. If you can't even explain why you like something or you think you enjoy something for the wrong reason (like unironically enjoying the stupid as hell sexual humor in Boku No Pico, or worse... Er.. Nope. not going to say that) then it's a guilty pleasure.
"Guilty Pleasure" doesn't mean, "I liked it even though I'm not supposed to." It means, "I liked it for shallow reasons." or "I liked it even though it's riddled with issues which usually kill a show for me." or simply, "I like it, but I cannot defend it." A perfect example of this is Justice League. I liked it because I got to hear the Elfman Batman theme again, and see Superman finally act like the character I've come to love over the years... also freeze breath. From a more objective standpoint, Justice League suffers from a lot of the same problems as Suicide Squad, a film I passionately despise, but I still like it for admittedly very shallow and kind of stupid reasons. So I call Justice League a guilty pleasure not because it isn't popular to like DCEU movies, but because even though it's riddled with issues that have killed other films for me, and I could never be called upon to defend it, I still had a good time watching this broken little movie.
Guilty Pleasure: I know it's poor quality. Like eating fast food instead of a well balanced meal. A shallow plot, bad acting, maybe mediocre dialogue. Maybe it's a cutesy show about friendship you watch despite finding the mass of humanity disgusting and friendship a sham but you watch anyway so you can pretend for a goddamn moment that the people you trusted haven't systematically abused and betrayed your trust over the course of a decade. Or sub par animation. But there are things I occasionally like watching that give me a mild sense of guilt, like doing something I know I shouldn't be doing, but in a fun sort of way.
I disagree. The expression 'guilty pleasure' makes a lot of sense, given the fact that art actually can help you some way developing into a better person. Quality stories can help you be more knowledgeable, intellectually sharper, more emphatic and even morally better. A good story can give your powers of imagination a boost and make you a better, more interesting and more fun conversationalist. Crap stories gives you little of these benefits - but they might give you dumb relaxing pleasure. And that is okay. But you know you could be doing better things with your time, so some might feel a little guilty about that. I find it a amusing actually, that someone like you would pretend not to realize such a simple concept. Of course you get what the deal is about. It's pretty plain, and you don't seem to be a complete dummy :-)
+GhostlyJorg That's some bullshit philosophy you invented yourself, lmao it's so arbitrary it can't be how other people even define "guilty pleasure", yet you say it's simple. Something making you better person etc has nothing to do with piece of media being good or not.
Frozenkex@ How would you define "guilty pleasure"? - Why would people feel "guilt" in some small way for watching crap entertainment if there wasn't an element in it about them potentially doing something more worthwhile with their time? - As I say, this 'more worthwhile' could be enjoying better art, but it could be other stuff, like pursuing education, helping others, attaining life goals, spending quality time with the people you love and so on. - Of course you could feel guilty for wasting your time with superficial pop culture. Makes perfect sense
For me, a guilty pleasure is something I find to be low in quality but I enjoy to watch it for whatever reason, Example Freddy got fingered. It's a horrible movie, I can pick out more scenes that make me cringe then make me laugh but I still enjoy watching and own the DVD. Me calling it a guilty pleasure isn't me conforming to the viewpoints of others but me essentially separating it from other better works I enjoy.
I can agree with some points but all throughout this I think you miss one major, extremely important point when looking at why we label things "guilty pleasures" and that is the objectively important qualities of something and what that something is trying to achieve.
For example: I consider SAO a guilty pleasure. The first half was fun to watch and the stories themselves were pretty interesting as far as I was concerned but the entire world lacked any cohesiveness, the plot was completely irrelevant for almost the entire series, the main character was lacking in literally every other and the side characters only personality traits were 'we're friends with the protagonist.'
Yes, some people overuse guilty pleasure but most people won't. Many can tell if a show is objectively bad and can explain why they subjectively still enjoy watching it.
The first time I even thought of something as a guilty pleasure was when I watched Angel Beats forever ago. I loved the show and the setting but I had enough self-awareness to realize that most of the characters were flat and one-dimensional and that the plots resolution not only didn't make any sense but also was extremely rushed just to try and finish up the series.
The reason we feel guilty for watching these is because we KNOW they are poorly made and, objectively, bad anime and the guilt comes from the fact that we COULD be spending our time watching something that was objectively good. We don't feel bad for liking it, we feel bad because we could be spending time on something better and we know it.
+Mischievous Roze The best rebuttal I can give to this comment is a simple question: What do we consider to be an objectively good or objectively bad piece of media? We could say that a show needs to have animation of a certain standard in order to be considered "good". But what about shows that may intentionally look bad to serve a greater thematic or symbolic purpose in the narrative? We could say that a show needs to be progressive in order to be good. Then does that mean that any anime that isn't like Cowboy Bebop or Evangelion is objectively not good? Does it matter if a show has no cultural relevance? Isn't art suppose to speak to people on an individual level before a universal one?
I mention in the video that I don't think there objective standard of quality with regards to appreciating art because no matter what kind of guideline you try to set, at some point you're going to find an exception. Even some of the most hated shows in the community will still have that dedicated fanbase that thinks it's a work of genus and on the inverse, you're always going to find people that think the "classics" aren't even that good.
"Many can tell if a show is objectively bad and can explain why they subjectively still enjoy watching it" is a statement I strongly disagree with. No one really has the right to point at something and say "that is an objectively bad piece of media and anyone who likes it should feel guilty". Not even critics really have that right. All people can do is explain what they liked about a show and what they didn't.
Lets take a look at your own examples. You perfectly explained what you liked and disliked about SAO and Angel Beats. Despite their flaws, you still finished them and found some degree of quality that kept you going whether it be the setting or the individual side stories. Now what you liked/disliked about the show could be completely different to other people but that doesn't make their standards for quality any better then yours.
Now if you feel like there are better shows worth watching at the end of the day then more power to you. We all have a little chart in our heads concerning what we think is better. BUT I think it's important to note that those charts are different depending on the person and we shouldn't feel guilty about our own.
+Bobbi-Ann Matheson I think it's important to note that a "rushed plot" and "mediocre comedy" are entirely subjective ideas like most elements that go into creating an art form. If a show is meant to be steadfast by nature, then a fast paced plot can be seen as a properly grounded narrative form. Plus if you don't find a shows brand of humor funny, does that make the show flawed? Maybe to you since, personally the show isn't achieving its intended goal but what if the style of humor resonates with someone else?
One Punch Man is a beautiful looking show, employing some of the best key animators in the business. You shouldn't feel "suckered in" by it. You should be happy that a show looks good enough to keep you watching if just for its aesthetics alone. If you're deriving pleasure from something for a specific, understandable reason and it's not at the expense of anyone else. why should you feel guilty?
MrAJcosplay Your question is invalid as it was already answered within my comment.
*"and what that something is trying to achieve."*
You also fall into the biggest mistake anyone can make, thinking that objective qualities are actually just subjective ones because A FEW people don't understand them. There will ALWAYS be an objective right in art, you can become great by properly going against what is considered objectively right but just outright failing to do what is objectively right is failing, not making a new style.
+Mischievous Roze You're "answer" specifically said "and that is the objectively important qualities of something AND what that something is trying to achieve". Let's start with the latter. What a work is trying to achieve will vary from person to person. In fact I even made a video discussing the numerous, yet non-infinite, ways that we can appreciate what a work may be trying to achieve. You could always ask a creator what his vision was but if that clashes with what you thought the art was trying to achieve or did achieve, then does that make you wrong?
Now let us get to the former. You seem to believe that there is this objective standard that art needs to reach in order to be "good" and that if said standard isn't met, then the work itself has failed. If you don't mind me asking, who exactly created this standard? You make it sound like MOST people already know what it is and that anyone who doesn't seems to just be lost. Is there a list of commandments somewhere that acts as a checklist? And if it's REALLY that easy, then why don't more creators do it?
Even if you can give me an answer that is satisfying, your second comment just raises another question. You said that an art can become great by going against what is considered objectively right. But isn't that a contradiction when you say that if it misses the mark then it fails? What's the difference between "going against" and "failing" exactly? What if the distinction between the two varies from person to person?
MrAJcosplay Um. No. What something is trying to achieve is decided by the creator.
I won't read anything past your first few comments. Theres really no point. You think the world revolves around you and that every creation isn't from a creator but rather owned by any dumbass that decides to watch it.
We have legitimate ways to critique things based on objective standards. No matter how many times people like you come up and say "but I don't like objectivity" it will never change anything. You will always be wrong. When you start with an opinion that is objectively wrong, theres really no reason to continue discussion.
1:39 My guilty pleasures appeal to my tastes _subjectively_ . I'm not even going to try to defend most of them. That's how guilty pleasures are _supposed_ to work, they're something you enjoy subjectively while understanding that it's objectively garbage..
On the contrary, a guilty pleasure is about liking something *_IN SPITE OF_* it being garbage. If there's one thing they're not about, they're definately not about having valid, sustainable opinions.
I will strongly disagree, I love some really bad shiet, but not because all of them are bad in critic eyes, but I can see why they are bad under my own taste and eyes. They're shiet my because they're shiet for me, even if I like them
Oh fuck! Didn't realize the video was so old
If you like it , is it really so bad? It seems like cognitive dissonance, you force yourself to accept that it's bad by some arbitrary standards created by critics or yourself, while still finding aspects of it appealing, meaning it has aspects that are good enough for you to like it and enjoy it. Try to adapt different philosophy - things that are bad are things that you dont like.
Why? Something that is bad is not necesary something I disagrace nor that I am ashame of. Is not like I'm not enjoying it and then say "this is bad". I am enjoying it because it is bad, that fact make's it enjoyable, if it were mediocre I would discart it as suck.
"Bad: no good" seems very sad, If I were to agree to that, I'll just have to give up anime because it wastes my time; Yes, that is a fact, but it's something I enjoy, by me putting it over better stuff, productive stuff, for me, like eating, I gave it priority.
It is not arbitrary it is a hard fact
2:29 I wonder how many would agree with your statement if you would show eromanga sensei instead of abstract art.