Fr. Peter Heers Examines the Views of Scott Hahn on Orthodoxy
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
- Excerpt from: The Orthodox Ethos Extended Podcast: After 1,000 Years - An Orthodox Examination of Catholicism: • After 1,000 Years - An...
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Apparently, Mr. Hahn doesn’t recognize the cultural differences between Spanish or Mexican Catholicism compared to Irish Catholicism compared to Italian Catholicism. All of which have distinct cultural differences from each other.
True
As a Catholic I don’t understand your point. We all have cultures but the mass and prayer of the Church as a whole is celebrated the same everywhere if it’s celebrated properly and with reverence. I can fly to Italy or Ireland or Korea and attend the same Liturgy
@@jackd8439 that’s the whole point: there is no theological nor liturgical differences between the various Orthodox jurisdictions (we’re a single Church with various ecclesiastical jurisdictions) and a Roman Catholic should understand this better than any other Christian body.
@@santamanone which is why Mr. Hahn’s reasoning was so...underwhelming.
apples to oranges. minor variations are not the same as national orthodox churches.
I always reverse the ethnic argument. If you really believe the Orthodox Church is true, but you turn away from it because your local parish doesn't match your own ethnic/cultural background, then _you_ are the one guilty of making an idol out of your own culture/ethnicity and prioritizing it above God. As a non-Russian, I believed in the truth of Orthodoxy, so I jumped right into my local Russian Orthodox parish with both feet and have never looked back. God doesn't want the lukewarm.
@@shawnpatrick1877
Greetings in Christ Jesus. This is a great challenge addressing the ethnic/cultural identity of local parishes. I am a woman of color. I have been a baptized Orthodox Christian for 7 years. Only by God's grace have I been able to remain one. I haven't had much issue with "white" converts but have had horrible experiences in many parishes. Racism is very real unfortunately. My convictions won't allow me to be Roman Catholic but I appreciate that though there is definitely racism in some Catholics I have always been well received in many of the Churches and people I have been around. One of my dear friends and teacher's a Hieremonk from Belarus said it is my Podvig. I must remain despite the challenges I face. Not just because Orthodoxy is true but also to be a reflection of Christ amongst those who feel I am unworthy because I'm not Greek, Antiichian (Middle Eastern), Romanian, Russian and the like. Not all parishes are like this but unfortunately many are. You would not believe how bad it can be🥺. Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner
@@SabahsPsalm777 I'm sorry to hear of your experience, my sister in Christ. It always surprises me to hear of things like this, but I suppose it shouldn't... Orthodox Christians are, after all, human & therefore sinners. I must remember to be thankful for my little mission parish, which has Russians, Chinese, Ethiopians, Romanians, Native Alaskans, an Indonesian, and black & white Americans - and welcomes all with kindness & warmth. I said a prayer for you. Please pray for me, a sinner.🙏🏻🥰☦️
I am an Eastern Orthodox from Sweden. That's the most absurd and idiotic defense of the Eastern Orthodox I have ever encounter. You really have zero empathy do you? Me and and my family travel 350 km by car on Sunday mornings to my parish, to services me, my 11 year old daughter and my still Baptist wife cannot understand. So how can they grow in the faith. You are insulting us who try our utmost to fit into a foreign context in our own land. Shame on you.
Amen brother. I am thankful that the parish I'm inquiring at is mostly English-speaking but I like to think if it wasn't I would still be attending and trying to learn. Because I believe it.
Also, like many things Catholic I have to ask, has he not read the Book of Acts? The presence of the Holy Spirit, the Parakletos, at Pentecost gives the Apostles the ability to communicate intimately in every language so wouldn't Orthodoxy's ability to flourish in any cultural milieu be a strong proof for it on its striking consistency with Scripture?
Brilliant insight.
@@johnnytass2111 This is purely from Scripture. If you take into account the Gospel in action throughout history in the Lives of the Saints, you'll see this very thing constantly. For example, Saint Paisios the Hagiorite could communicate with people of all languages without actually speaking their language
@@johnnytass2111 The fact that Scott finds Orthodox multilinguality problematic is actually an admission that his church doesn't have the Holy Spirit.
@@panokostouros7609 Thank you Pano. I have read many of your comments on Orthodox channels and they have all been enriching. God bless you.
Thank you so much for sharing this.
On the whole ethnic thing in the Church. Im reminded of what Jonathan Pageau often says, unity in multiplicity. In Christ we can all be united without losing our distinctiveness. I’m glad our priest (Fr. Josef) is Dutch and speaks Dutch, makes it a lot easier for me. We have some Greek in there (Lord have mercy and maybe some more) and the Lords Prayer is done in all languages by the faithful in attendance, Dutch, Greek, Romanian, Russian, Ukrainian and Arabic and maybe some other languages depending on who’s there. That’s what I love about our (Saint Nektarios parish) Church, there aren’t many Orthodox Churches here, so we all come together to glorify God and venerate the Saints. Some even know the Lords Prayer in multiple languages. How great is that? Glory to God! ☦️🙏🏻
There are Eastern Rite Catholicism with Ukrainian, Chaldean, Syriac and Maronite rites.
Father Heers the way you refute and substantiate mistakes by those seeking to be Orthodox and exposing their mistakes without calling them names while being respectful and professional about it is truly the reason why you are truly my on line spiritual father. God love you.
I've seen this and was very surprised this was the reason he gives for why he didn't become Orthodox. Mr. Hahn was very instrumental in my conversion to Catholicism. However, I begin to wonder if the reason why he didn't become Orthodox was because he wouldn't be able to develop his business writing books, teaching in Steubenville, EWTN shows, etc. I find Orthodoxy to be a quiet and humble Church with theologians quietly in the shadows. Perhaps Mr Hahn is unable to be in the shadows professionally. I'm so grateful I'm on the journey out of RCC. Lord have Mercy on me.
Yes! I whole heartedly believe you nailed it. The fact that he would have to leave what he probably considers his identity with the worldly status is what deters people from really following Christ. To leave our own delusions on what we believe and to follow Christ with all our souls, minds and heart is definitely the greatest struggle. But what a glorious struggle it is when we do it all for the love of Christ. It’s worth every hardship and rejection from anyone and everyone. May God be glorified in our lives and save our souls. ☦️
@@vanessac.7040 beautiful comment Vanessa. It has been very difficult spiritually for me. There has been a lot of friction between me and some Catholics in my circle. They do not understand how I can leave the RCC. All I can say is I have to follow truth.
Glory to God! I also received friction from Catholic family, priests, etc. when I converted. Don't let it deter you.
Fellow convert here. Was drawn to conversion, in part, by the humility I witnessed.
@@jcgurl3773 not even my grown children understand my journey. My granddaughters loved to go with me, but since Covid began, they have not been allowed to go with me.
Hahn’s greatest strength as an apologist is that he doesn’t exclusively interpret early church theology through a scholastic lens. Since my conversion to Orthodoxy and hearing Orthodox lectures on the Fulfillment of the Davidic Kingdom in Christ, and the Theotokos as Ark of the New Covenant, in the same way the Golden Box was Ark of the Old Covenant, Hahn gets these details exactly correct, and he seems to approach them without all the usual Scholastic baggage. He only resorts to them and other post-Carolingian dogma when defending the peculiarities of papal claims. I think this shows his heart was, indeed, going in the correct direction before letting these ethnic perceptions derail him.
🎯
what's wrong with Scholasticism?
@@williamofdallas I think an Orthodox person would say that it privileges reason over faith. Understand God takes place in the heart through revelation, not in the mind through reason. God transcends rational understanding.
Hope this helps. I am new to Orthodoxy and not an authority.
@@williamofdallas it's based on natural theology which is nonsensical considering we live in a fallen world
@@---yu7ff scholasticism is not just natural theology. That is such a strawman that comes from not even understanding scholasticism
Father, I was a member of the Church of Rome for 65 years before becoming Orthodox. My wife of over 41 years told me I was always Orthodox. Unfortunately the Church of Rome was not. I was born and grew up in a small North-Central Pennsylvania city. In the west end there was Holy Rosary Parish attended by mostly Poles. Moving eastward there was Annunciation Parish predominately made up of Irish. A bit more to the east and north was Mater Dolorosa Parish made up of mostly Italians. More to the east was St. Boniface Parish made up of Germans. Parish boundaries did not seem to matter as people simply preferred to be with those of their same ethnicity. Especially vicious were basketball games between St. Joe's (Annunciation - Irish) and St. Boniface (German) schools. When a St. Boniface girl married a St. Joe's boy, or vice versa, at the basketball game the wife sat on her side of the court with her people and the husband sat on the other side with his people. In the early United States there was an extreme dislike between Catholic Irish-descent bishops and Catholic German-descent bishops. This unfortunate man's experience and knowledge is rather limited. The Orthodox are, or should be, aware of prelest whereas it is all too common elsewhere. I just got a Bible so I'll interpret it for you and teach you? I visited a few Orthodox Churches and am now qualified to pass judgment on the entire Orthodox Faith? God forbid I lose my own soul and even worse mislead others into doing so.
Beautifully put and reflective of my own experiences. I am now Orthodox as well.
at the end, catholic church is not national, it is universal with hundreds of ethnicities. orthodox churches are ethnocentric unlike roman catholic churches.
@@artifexdei3671 Got it flipped, because Orthodoxy is united under one theology. The only "unity" in Papism is submission to the antipope. There are tons of theologies under one umbrella in Papism, often divided under ethnic lines.
@@cyriljorge986 really, united in theology. the one that says you can divorce up to how many times? which goes against Jesus' own words on marriage, contraception, abortion, what else? and this is supposed to be christian orthodoxy? pope is sovereign of interference - that's why catholic church has teachings that many other denominations have already fallen on, main reason, at local or national level they succumb to various powers, popes on another hand, haven't bent.
@@cyriljorge986 to add, ethnic lines within catholicism especially in theology are not even a consideration. your argument shows how deeply ethnocentrism runs in orthodoxy.
As a recovering new age American I struggled with this view especially in the last year. God puts any of our struggles in front of us before full entry into the Church. I persevered in placing my will in his keeping and lo and behold he is revealing the mystery of such matters to me. In my experience and understanding, from the Father, as little as it is with me, the Orthodox Church is the only Church in which within, beyond the worldly veil, (ethnicity) the Holy Spirit remains in force today. Though many Orthodox are abandoning, have never known or are denying this. That is expected.
And there is a part of the collective eastern ethnicity that reflects Gods culture. But one must have eyes to see. So one must be careful to think what you see is all worldly ethnicity. It is not.
Glory to God.
I am a convert to Orthodoxy. Having been a former Latin (I was born into the RC Church before I converted) I never understood why so many of them wrongly believe these ethnic aspects among jurisdiction of certain autocephalous churches somehow override the theology of the Church. This seems to be something that really bothers papalists, despite the fact that their own churches once had these stark ethnic characteristics.
This man is sorely mistaken if he thinks that the Latins didn’t have ethnic differences among their churches, at least once upon a time. These cultural aspects would have been especially strong in the wide array of Roman Catholic ethnic neighbourhoods in large American cities.
The ethnic differences are all fine and should be cherished, as long as they are not exalted higher than their proper place.
because orthodox churches are set up along national lines whereas roman catholicism is for all nations and ethnicities.
@Homer X you use a word like “innovation” and expect to be taken seriously? Yeah…thanks, but no thanks; we don’t need to take any cues from the church that allows abominations like pachamama. If you think we need unnecessary innovations then your priorities are sadly screwed up.
I’ll also say that the Catholic Church in America may no longer have these ethnic distinctions, but if you go to other traditionally Catholic parts of the world they certainly do. Go to parts of Latin America or rural France. We have enough problems in our own circles with the saboteurs of Ameridoxy/Liberaldoxy infiltrating our parishes and monastic communities and spreading their leftist Fordham University poison.
@@christtheking97 no
@ChristTheKing There's 6 overlapping Papal Catholic jurisdictions in my city alone. Latins, Byzantines (3), Maronites, Chaldeans. The Latins have ethnic Parishes too.
I am a Roman Catholic, I deeply appreciate Dr. Hahn, but what Father Heers states here couldn't be more right and more clear.
As a Protestant, I have always found the ethnic argument like this odd.
You say you found you don't fit into a service because it was too Greek.
Why wouldn't you feel the same when attending a Latin mass?
The Catholic parish I attended had two Masses. One in English and one in Spainish. There are separate festivals for each ethnic group in that one parish.
Same. In fact the Spanish speaking community was further divided by country of origin. The Hondurans had an entirely separate charismatic community.
Yup here in Atascadero, California they do that also. I went to that catholic church for a few years while figuring out things....still am but I don't go to mass anymore
@@RussellTisdale at the end they are part of catholic church, not part of a national catholic church.
@@caseywhite3150 your loss.
@@artifexdei3671 I dont agree with the Vatican or latin stuff I am leaning towards Orthodox....Vatican is globalist owned at this point
Orthodoxy is the Mystery that moves in the heart of men and women. It lives and breathes in and through us and even our diverse languages and cultures. I have experienced this in my own life, having practiced Protestantism as a minister for 40* years after being baptized Orthodox and having Orthodox grandparents from Lebanon as a child. Even in Bible college and all my theological and philosophical education in universities, Orthodox tugged me in my heart and drew me to complete a PhD in Eastern Orthodox studies and become a priest in my senior years. Dr Hahn as Father Peter demonstrates is looking at our faith as a matter of the head apart from the heart. As a Catholic and a former Protestant he understands not the nous.
Thanks, Fr. Peter. I’m really enjoying these response videos. ☦️
Thank you Father Peter for another informative video. ☦️
One of the reasons I converted is bc of all the different cultures...it's a beautiful thing. And IMHO helps stand against the current gl*balist agendas. Thank you father for these ☦️☦️☦️
Many cultures, one Faith! Can't find that anywhere else!
Exactly ,it's true diversity
All due respect to Mr Hahn, critiquing Orthodoxy from the ethnic angle is not only low hanging fruit but feeble as well. He seems to think that the difference between ethnicities is tantamount to a difference between denominations. It’s the persistent fallacy of others as well. Lofton also comes to mind.
Thanks again Father for this analysis.
I’m first generation Australian with a Greek father and Australian ( Anglo danish ) mother raised Protestant but converting with my Baptist wife to Orthodoxy 22 years ago. We converted into a Greek church because of proximity and the welcome we received not to become Greek .
It is easy to forget in the west that orthodoxy is here as part of diaspora and not mission . And in addition almost all orthodox know very intimately what oppression is like( my father was the only child not born under the ottomans in 1914) . Such migrants are overwhelmingly peasants ( despite a medical degree i still feel that peasant mentality). Whilst ethnic pride can hinder gods work it is facile to think migrants from orthodox countries can be anything other than who they are.
When I was Roman Catholic, Scott Hahn was my go-to apologist. Now that I'm becoming Orthodox, it is just absolutely cringe-worthy to see the weakness of his arguments against Orthodoxy. These Catholic "apologists" only know how to debunk protestantism.
That's because protestantism is false but Orthodoxy is the truth☦️
@@josephsaab7208 how can it be truth when orthodoxy goes directly against Jesus' teachings on marriage and no divorce. orthodoxy allows divorce and 2nd marriage. how it that orthodox?
@@artifexdei3671 I'm not sure if you know how to read but maybe you can re-read the gospel of Matthew and see how foolish you sound. Maybe you should look up the definition of the word "except". Maybe read before you attack. You sound ignorant
@@artifexdei3671 The RCC goes against His teachings and much much more. 🤷♀️
@@artifexdei3671 First off, let's look at Matthew 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.” There is a clear exception for divorce and remarriage, no mention of annulment. Second, the Apostles, were given the power to absolve all types of sins. The Apostles successors have the power given by Jesus to forgive sin so the person can move on and that is clear as Jesus forgave sins throughout His ministry and as evidenced Saint Paul even persecuted Jesus' believer but was then converted and became an Apostle. Saint Paul says correctly that "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23 The remedy for sin in confession and absolution. Pope Francis in his document “Amoris Laetitia" advanced the power of local bishops to include divorced and remarried Catholics in church life, so this indicates to me that the head of the Roman Catholic Church sees it the way Orthodox do and I my view, as an Orthodox Christian, Pope Francis is correct in this case. The Roman Catholic Church has forgiven in the Sacrament of Confession all sorts of sins, to include murder, so that people could be received back and participate in the life of the Church. If we were perfect we would not divorce but the Orthodox view is more clear and correct. The Orthodox must get the permission of their Bishop to remarry and the Orthodox Church correctly provides the possibility for a divorce and remarriage. Jesus says that even looking at a women with lust is adultery, so if there is no forgiveness then every man with a lustful thought is to be cast out of the Church and condemned to hell by your way of thinking. The Orthodox Church realistically recognizes that some marriages may become completely unworkable, causing more damage than good, and thus does allow for divorce. The process for a divorce in Orthodoxy requires a Ecclesiastical Court decision at the level of the diocese and it is in practical terms the same as Roman Catholics getting an "annulment" because the “marriage annulment” in the Roman Catholic Church is actually a declaration by a Church tribunal that a marriage thought to be valid according to Church law actually fell short of at least one of the essential elements required for a binding union. The processes are constructively the same unless you are going to nit pick on details.
In a nearby city a Catholic Vietnamese Church was recently established. Many Churches in that area also offer Mass in Spanish and Vietnamese as well.
I agree that ethnocentricity is a serious issue in Orthodoxy for any inquirer; and I don't think it is superficial at all, as I've heard _many_ would-be Orthodox complain about that -- some of whom I personally know... I think the OCA has made a valiant effort correcting this. Let us defend Orthodoxy to our last breath; but let's not defend where we're falling short in serving others.
I am a convert to Orthodoxy and I am from a Hispanic country. At my "Greek Orthodox" church, our backgrounds are from many different countries and ethnicities. I feel sad for Scott Hahn. Then again, I understand he has gained financially from his conversion experience. From what I have seen, we Orthodox are more likely to draw attention away from ourselves. We place great value on humility.
@Conquering Death There were too few ROCOR or Russian Orthodox type parishes in the South (more OCA ones.) I remember speaking up about that at the diocesan meeting back in the 2000's. At St Johns in Mobile that was soon closed 😢Hopefully that is changed since then.
Funny when I was looking into things, I wanted to be Catholic because they have seats 😂😂😂 true story. But I couldn’t deny orthodoxy and I’m so very happy.
No kidding, my family really likes the Orthodox church that has seats, too. I dont miss standing so much, since I am in the choir lol.
The orthodox churches usually have a bench around the walls of the sanctuary for those who can’t stand. And most of the Armenian orthodox churches have pews.
I'm sure you know this by now, but just to state it for inquirers: All Orthodox churches, have seating, for those who need it, especially the elderly, the sick, and anyone who needs or wants it. That's a constant need. It's the case everywhere, even for monasteries. Most of the time it's on the sides. In rare cases, the seating may not be there, but that can be because it's a tight room, but chairs can easily be brought out. All seats taken? Someone would usually love to give you theirs. The people in these churches are so pious and will go out of the way to offer you hospitality & comfort.
Ha ha yes standing can be a hassle ,but it's very rewarding
My Orthodox Church has seats thankfully lol
My step dad was Catholic and told me that his family just 50 years ago would pass a dozen Catholic Churches that were the "Irish," or the "Italian," Catholic Church because his dad would only go to the "German," Catholic Church. Eventually that fell away, but Scott Hahn's claims are not just superficial, they are deeply malicious and manipulative. I don't believe for one second that he is just ignorant.
Absolutely. I’m only 35 but grew up in an area that had the ‘Italian Catholic’ and the ‘Puerto Rican Catholic’ churches. There is still a strong ethnic connection via church in many immigrant communities in the US.
Also, as a woman of Irish-Lithuanian ancestry (and someone who looks like an ‘outsider’, lots of tattoos etc), the Greek Orthodox churches in my area have been nothing but welcoming. Scott Hahn was surely not turned away at the door of Orthodoxy.
@Homer X There is only 1 Church. It's not the schematic heretical sects like Catholics and Protestants. Yes, we should do more to make the Church accessible to those outside the Church (namely Catholics and Protestants), but make no mistake, It would be better to wade through the ethnic affiliations than to remain outside the Church.
That's not a very gracious take man. Scott Hahn's whole career has been about talking to Protestants about Catholicism. I wouldn't assume a desire to be manipulative on his part, rather he probably hasn't thought much about Orthodoxy in his career and was afraid to admit that on the video format.
@@JW_______ what isn’t very gracious is someone posting as an expert just to lead the masses into damnation because it suits their ego.
@@JW_______ James 3:1 “Not many of you should be teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.”
You are the best Fr.Peter Heers thank you 🙏🏻
Every RC apologist argument, "Orthodoxy is true, but ......some nonsense........"
We left a conservative Presbyterian church due to our realization that the Filioque words were improperly added to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed without ecumenical approval. (My local Presbyterian Session rigorously resisted my suggestion to recite the Creed without the Filioque because, after all, we professed to value originalism.) As he says here, Fr. Peter is correct on when and who inserted the Filioque. I don't dispute the content of the Filioque (I am not a theologian; just a civilian.) But I strongly object to the non-ecumenical way in which the Filioque was inserted a thousand or so years ago. If the West wanted to add the clause, they should have called for a new ecumenical council where they could present their proposal to add the three words of the Filioque. We now are active members of a traditional Anglican church that is probably the most Orthodox-friendly church you could ever imagine. Thank you, Fr. Peter!
Why not go beyond Orthodox-friendly and become Orthodox? I was raised Anglican. My father an Anglican priest for 28 years before he and most of his parish became Orthodox. It is a struggle to become and be Orthodox, but it is a blessed struggle - thrice-blessed. There is never a day that I looked back and thought that my decision to be baptized and become an Orthodox Christian was anything but fully the will of God and joined me to the One Church founded by Christ - the apostolic and Catholic Church of the Nicene-Constantinople Symbol of Faith.
Thank you, Orthodox Ethos. Several years ago i was singing in the choir at our church as a young friend was being ordained to the priesthood. We were singing songs in English and Church Slavonic. But i told him later that I was also hearing in my mind, "I have decided to follow Jesus.. no turning back, no turning back. " For some lovely reason i find that tears are steaming down my face as i type this..
Pride in one’s ethnicity/nation is a powerful emotion. God commanded disciples to go make followers out of all nations not create a global singular superstructure.
The very moment the bishop of Rome declared universal jurisdiction, he pitted love of one’s nation against religion. In that moment, Protestantism became an inevitability.
Father bless thank you for posting this. With all due respect to Dr. Hahn, he is in error or confused. The Roman Catholic Church is very ethnic. I know this by experience. The Asian and Hispanic/Latino Bishops have special authority in the USA and Australia to preserve their ethnicity. These communities are apart from the “melting pot”. Thank you again.
Thanks father for this...im a roman Catholic and i love orthodoxy,
Im so glad to hear this. Scott Hahn has made himself into a sort of hero, people singing his praises. Never sat well with me. Im going to look for an orthodox church in Paris
i'm an ordinary Joe who left school at 16 but even I recognised the historical errors Dr Hahn was making as he went along. (I'm Trad Catholic exploring Orthodoxy).
I'm a Catholic immigrant inquiring into Orthodoxy. Absolutely Catholicism at it's best is also "very ethnic". It's that cultural heritage of my Catholicism that I've lost since immigrating and one of the many things about Orthodoxy that attracts me.
Thank you father for defending the faith
But what about St Paul who refers to the "Church in Jerusalem" or the "Church in Thessaloniki" etc
Wouldn't that be same as saying the "Church in Russia" or the "Church in Greece"?
In other words, the Greek Church or the Russian Church etc.
Spurious reasons, if you ask me.
Nice rebuttal father Peter!
Thank you Fr Peter for your continuous and blessed efforts to enlighten us with your true knowledge.
Converting to Orthodoxy, the True faith, is not for everyone! It takes many months and if not perhaps even years to change course: The main key here is humbleness through Grace, without it a man can never learn the difference, as a matter of fact it can lead him instead to more delusion! Lord have mercy
☦☦☦
Thank you, Father Peter. Excellent reply. (MANY excellent comments below here..). Your firm but looking-us-in-the-eye manner is no small thing. I don't see that from the other man. Something is missing there. There's more to this. Especially since those 'arguments' are so easily refuted. As you just showed..
Saved in the Catholic apologetic file.
Thank you yet again Fr for this upload, very informative and enlightening. The funny thing is Rome battling against secular culture internally is far more than concerning than Orthodox ethnic identity.
ruclips.net/video/tRa4MhjDjF0/видео.html
I love Hahn and it was due to him I left the protestant world. His books greatly inspired me. I visited several Catholic churches but always left feeling it was cold and impersonal. It was @gospelsimplicity that I heard about Orthodox. After visiting a couple churches I realized I found 'home.' It all made sense!! Now I understand why papal supremacy and filioque never sat well in my gut! The only thing I miss is some latin prayers - which they cant do any more anyway.
I'm not even a catechumen yet and Dr. Hahn's comments struck a nerve. They seemed superficial as you said Father Peter, and almost flippant. Thank you for your examinations here, they were illuminating. God bless you, Father.
God bless Fr.peter
Matt Fradd likes to demolish Evangelicals (easy work) but he will not host an Orthodox apologist on his program. I guess he's too afraid of a fair fight.
Matt Fraud got annihilated by Jay Dyer quite a while ago and has been running tail since. He's a uniate, literally a halfway house with zero theological justification.
@@NavelOrangeGazer Wow I need to see that. :) Also I had no idea he was uniate - now some of his orthodox-like tendencies (saying the Jesus prayer, using the term Theotokos) make sense. But yes unless he's cradle uniate it's like trying to sit on the fence.
I like Michael Loftons channel. Great work with both Orthodox and Eastern Catholics on.
@YAJUN YUAN Yes! I remember the name. Glad to see you here too!
I find most R. Catholics, Matt Fradd included, actually struggle dealing with Evangelicals and Protestants in general.
I don't really fault him, it would take specialization of study, (shoot, most Protestants don't even understand each other) but they actually misrepresented Protestants just as much as you Orthodox say they misrepresent your position.
I was about to become Orthodox, and visited Mt. Athos twice, which I loved. But Scott Hahn is right to say its very ethnic. That said I deeply love the Orthodox Faith it is simply profound, I really miss the Diviine Worship in Magister Lavra.
Pray for Scott Hahn to overcome his reservations and embrace Orthodoxy.
I personally think that there are a lot of people who chose Catholicism over Orthodoxy because Orthodoxy is much more alien to them than Catholicism. So once they jump from Protestantism because of say church history, Catholicism is the easier bet. Then once asked why later, they have to some how justify it as if it was a well thought out decision. That’s kind of how things played out for me when I chose Catholicism once I left Protestantism 7 years ago. Once I finally gave Orthodoxy it’s fair shake, I realized that it is the way.
This is my comment to boost the video.
What about the Maronite Rite, the Anglican Ordinate, the Ukrainian Rite, The Polish National Catholic Church, the French government has a treaty with the Vatican that picks where priests go, and the Byzantine Rite.
The Polish National Catholic Church is not in communion with the Roman See. They reject papal infallibility.
In terms of Catholic apologetics, Scott Hahn seems to have a blind-spot w/ Orthodoxy. Just as his argument against Orthodoxy missed the mark, some Orthodox apologists do the same against Catholicism. As for Orthodox apologists, from what I’ve seen is that they almost always attack Scholastic terminology without translating it in an Eastern fashion OR they make a big deal about post-schism saints and claim the RCC made up the distinction between formal and material heretics. Yet, we actually see this in Saints venerated in the Orthodox Churches such as St. Artemius of Antioch and Saint Lucian of Antioch.
I see the issue lies universal jurisdiction, and the Latin church seems to be moving (albeit VERYYYYYY slowly), in the right direction. Another issue is that ex cathedra statements were made in the absence of the Eastern Orthodox as it was in the first millennia….not the best way to form ecumenical dialogue😵💫
While some may say that they hate the other side, they really should be praying for the reuniting of East and West. Many will say, “dream on, that will never happen” or “the only way is for individual conversions to the Orthodox Church.” The matter is, the greatest scandal of Christendom, was the divide of the Bride of Christ.
@@menta617 I thought JP2 attended that one or did something change?
The National Polish Catholic Church and the Catholic Church in Poland are two different things.
John Paul the Second attended the Catholic Church in Poland (the one in communion w/ Rome then and now) when it was underground before he became Pope.
Mr. Hahn proves that just because someone has a doctorate does not mean they know what they are talking about. He obviously has made himself an expert in something he never fully researched. The fact that he went to the Church of Rome and not to us is a blessing for Orthodoxy. Once agaiun, Fr. peter has done an excellent job point out the theological and historical facts.
The whole ethnic issue isn’t an issue with Orthodoxy. It’s an issue with humans wanting to divide ourselves. But still, people want to use that as an excuse to justify their choice to not join the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.
This is what I like about the Orthodox. The fact that the Orthodox do not DISDAIN the unique cultures of the Russian or the Greek or the Serb or the Arab. Etc. St. Paul said he longed for "his own people." That tells me that the "ethnic" thing is just as legit in the New Cov as the Old Cov. Because your inherited history is part of the people's dignity, and should be respected, wherever it is, whoever it belongs too. To take that away from someone I should regard as cruel.
Thank you Fr. Peter….I think the problem with Mr. Hahn is that he doesn’t understand holy tradition….one must seek the ancient church to understand what it is to be a Christian…we live differently both mind and spirit (nous), compared to the first christians of the first 3 centuries. As a searching Christian, you look at the ancient church, before the schism, and compare the Orthodox, Roman Catholic dogmas and canons to how true they are to the ancient church. Orthodoxy has not changed one iota, where RC, has innovations after innovations and has drifted from the true faith. Protestantism is even worse, because they branched off Roman Catholicism, and have drifted even further away. Hence why in Protestantism have the branch theory and have been divided in many branches and can’t find the true path back to the ancient church. If Mr. Hahn’s problem is he can’t understand Greek, I’m sure that in the USA they have liturgical services performed in English…we do here in Australia! Those that seek will find, everybody’s spiritual journey is different but, the key is to keep searching the scriptures with humility, obedience and love…the truth will stare in your face one day and when you do find it….keep challenging yourself to keep you honest. Thank you Fr. Peter Heers, may the Lord protect you always…Keep up your apostolic mission and all the great work you and your team do….thank you. 😊
But still the Orthodox Church broke off from the Church God founded and the voice He entrusted on earth. The Pope still holds the keys to God's kingdom on Earth, theres no denying that. The Greek Orthodox is technically protestant", since in 1054 you protested against the Church.
To say the Orthodox Church "never" changed a bit is a bit silly since we share the same canonical councils and changes up until 1054.
But yes, I agree, the Orthodox Church has been far better at keeping the traditions of the Early Christian Church. Which is why many Catholics like myself dislike Norvos Ordo and want the Church to revert back to the Tradition Latin Mass.
I am Turkish (Muslim convert) and attend a Greek church. If ethnicity meant anything then I would not be welcomed at all. In fact I’d probably be chased out with pitchforks!
Very interesting.
Hahn sounds like a radio broadcaster. It’s very difficult for me to listen to such ‘polished’ speakers about anything. But yes. His immediate misunderstanding of Orthodox enculturation had me rolling my eyes.
I attend an Antiochian church, but I can go down to the local Greek Orthodox church and feel right at home. Can a Catholic say the same when it comes to liberal vs conservative Catholic churches?
Ethnicity should not be a standard to judge a Church but Obedience to the Command of Christ.
Not that the rest of arguments were anything but shallow, but when he spoke of Filioque he exposed himself... Kids in high school back in my day (when teaching orthodox religion was a more vital part of the curriculum) had a better understanding of such an important matter and could easily debate Mr. Hahn!
It's quite amusing that Scott brings up the concept of denominationalism within the Orthodox church, especially when we share the same liturgy. Having attended a Catholic church for two years, I was exposed to a plethora of variations in their practices, including the novus ordo mass, SSPX, sedevacantist, clown masses, and the Byzantine liturgy, to name just a few. What term could one possibly coin to describe this bewildering array of practices and beliefs?
God bless u all , keep growing
"Mine eyes seek Thee before the early watch, to MEDITATE upon Thy promises."
lol apparently Dr. Hahn doesn’t seem to realize that there are national churches within Catholicism. You have the Syriac Catholics, Melkite(Arabic) Greek Catholics, Ukrainian Greek Catholics, Syro-Malobar Catholics, Russian Greek Catholics etc…
@@WishingForRain so true!
@@djfan08 they are not national, they are based on a group of people that are catholic. they go beyond national levels.
@@artifexdei3671 no, they are distinct churches that are a part of the Catholic communion of Churches. Go to a Melkite Church and you’ll find the majority are Arabic speaking people. This idea that the Orthodox communion of Churches is divided and that the Catholic communion of Churches aren’t divided is an absolute lie! There’s major division between Latin Catholicism and Byzantine Catholicism. They have entirely different theology.
@@djfan08 you are missing the point here. melkite has arab speakers, but not arab as in 'arabic melkite catholic church'. there's no national arabic catholic church unlike bulgarian, romanian orthodox, etc. and what is the difference between byzantine and latin? any specific examples? another good discussion this time from steven ray.
@@artifexdei3671 as far as the differences in theology goes, sure! Latins tend to be Thomistic and Byzantines accept Palamism. Don’t believe me? Saint Gregory Palamas is venerated liturgically on the second Sunday of Lent. It’s known as Palamas Sunday. And in doing so they liturgically accept the Palamite councils which explicitly condemn the Filioque.
I think what he liked about the Roman Catholic Church was Opus Dei, which provided a fast track to a professional career and cushy scholarly positions. And ecumenism. He's big on ecumenism.
I agree. I'm not certain he would have the career he has in the Orthodox faith.
If you want to be first you have to accept being last. Camels and needles.
The west confuses the sending of the Holy Spirit with the eternal procession.
This is such a American critique also.. Every country besides America is going to have the same issue with Catholicism. Speaking of America, just 100 years ago you would have a Polish Catholic Church, German Catholic Church, Polish Catholic Church.. EVEN in some places it still that way! and now with Hispanic Catholic Church... they all feel very ethnically based. This is a terrible argument and HAS NOTHING to do with the true or falsity of Orthodoxy. I have found every Orthodox community that I have been to welcoming to everyone!
In other words, Scott is Roman Catholic and he wears his blinders proudly.
"Orthodoxy is ethnic". I'm a French national, culturally Sephardic (was cradle Jewish), living in the Netherlands where I attend a Dutch Orthodox church. Some of the other nationalities in our church include Dutch, Serbian, Greek, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Belgian, and German. But keep telling us how Orthodoxy is ethnic, Scott Hahn.
I have a question. I am very seriously looking into becoming Orthodox. I have read many books, watched many videos and I feel very attached to it. The only church near me is Coptic, which I don't have a problem with, but I have not gone there yet. I don't know what it means to be baptised in a Coptic church in regards to entering other churches in the world. I have a very strong calling towards Greece and I would also love to meet others in whatever ethnicity, whether Ethiopian, Russian or whatever. So, will being baptised in one church prevent me from entering fully into other churches? Can I be a free agent, to roam in and out of Orthodox churches as I please?
The Copts are not Orthodox, they are not in communion with Orthodoxy. They are the descendants of the Monophysites. They honor Dioscorus, for example, who was anathematized by the Fourth Oecumenical Council. There have been many, many attempts over the years to reconcile them to the Orthodox Church and they have all failed. Look at church history from the middle of the 5th century to the end of the 7th century and you will see several attempts to reconcile them, a false union, and several Oecumenical councils which condemned Monophysitism and Monothelitism and Monoenergism - forms of the same Christological heresy.
So, no, you most certainly cannot be come a Copt and consider you are Orthodox, or commune with the Orthodox.
Our recommendation would be to write team@orthodoxethos.com and let us know more details about where you live and we could suggest possibilities.
Give Hahn credit for one thing: he had sense enough to leave the pseudo-Christian mob in which every man is a church unto himself.
Scott got it all right. I attend SSPX chapel. We have multiple ethnicities and traditions attending and never feels like it's leans to one group or culture. Christ is our centre
He got it wrong on the reality of Orthodoxy.
Good job. Keep up the good work your Roman Catholic brother in the Lord. 👉✝
The Roman Catholic Church, as all churches, was just as ethnic as the Orthodox Church. The sanctification of the culture is a thing of beauty.
Ethnicity has an effect on all forms of Christianity. To act like this is something specific to Orthodoxy is strange. Even Protestants have Chinese and Spanish churches. The Catholics do as well.
Dr. Hahn should visit Poland - probably the most Catholic country left. Go in any Catholic church - the walls are adorned with Polish flags, monuments to battles and dead generals (these are just monuments - not tombs) etc. The nationalism goes far beyond ethnic distinctions in any Orthodox church I've seen.
at the end, polish churches are part of roman catholic church. there is no such thing a polish catholic church unlike serbian orthodox, romanian orthodox, etc.
@@artifexdei3671 Administratively those national churches are independent (autocephalous) but it is canonically one church. An Orthodox Christian can receive the mysteries (sacraments) in any of those countries.
@@ExVeritateLibertas are they? when was the last orthodox council? who calls it now? does anyone have authority? so how is it canonical?
@@artifexdei3671 No one has had an ecumenical council truly since the last Roman Emperor was alive. We have synods, we don't really need anything else. We have no more dogmas to proclaim.
@@LadyMaria really? there's all sorts of new things thrown at believers in modern times how can you not respond to all the different challenges?
Very low-tier arguments on Dr. Hahn’s part
For twenty years, Scott Hahn has been unimpressing me, and he continued unimpressing me in this clip. Such a shallow rationale.
May I have a link to the video you are watching here?
St. Demetrios’ in Seattle WA (my closest parish) says the Lord’s Prayer during Liturgy in 5 languages (English, Greek, Spanish, Russian, and Arabic) consecutively. It’s a Greek Church but it’s far from ethnocentric...
Yes, Hahn overlooked that the Divine Liturgy is the same! The Orthodox faith is the same everywhere. The Bishops have greater authority in their autocephalous diocese without departing from the faith. Yeah Hahn is wrong.
Your commentary on the ethnic aspect of the church is very good, Fr. As a Catholic, I remember going to churches when I was very little and being the only Latino family while everyone else was predominantly German, Irish, or Scandinavian. Then I would go to some churches and it was actually predominantly Mexican. And there are big differences within the practice of the faith even in the Latin rite. When I am able to go to a Ruthenian or Melkite parish, I am not put off by the Slavonic or Arabic (respectively). We are one in our love for Christ. Dr Hahn misses the mark heavily here.
John 15:26
[26]“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
Scott Hahn is VERY shallow when he discusses Orthodoxy. He writes us off almost flippantly. He is not interested in the truth so much as he is interested in being Catholic and monetizing it.
Scott Hahn, In his heart is still a Protestant, he’s slipped over into Catholicism but he has a Protestant filter on all his theology! Good Bless his effort but...💥🔥☦️🔥💥
Like Father Hopko said, you can’t put an earthly adjective in front of the term Orthodox Church.
can you please make a video expanding roman filioque history
Rome did not censure any of the local churches (and they were many) who had added the Filioque until it was a fait accompli in most of the western churches. Rome only added it when it was almost universally accepted in the Roman Patriarchate.
He seems to ignore that the catholic church allows some Protestant pastors to become priests, even if they are married. Also, Eastern catholic churches allow married priests.
In recent times, yes, but there was still a moratorium on married Uniate priests when he converted.
It is correct for Irish, Italian, Spaniards or Portuguese to love Papalism deep down to cultural level, but somehow it is wrong for Romanians, Serbians or Greeks to love Orthodoxy deep down to cultural level because it is ethnocentric. Very nice papist 😉 very nice
the answer is simple - Western europeans have connection to Rome, eastern europeans had a connection to constantinople but now it's gone. eastern churches started resenting rome as a centre of christian decision making so they focused on themselves. in the meantime catholic church went to all corners of the world.
@@artifexdei3671 You forget that RCs force converted a good chunk of the population. Convert or sword. There's no jealousy to a piece of land because that's worldly and RCs don't understand that.
@@artifexdei3671 Would you like to elaborate when the connection to Constantinople was gone? When The Turks took it in 1453, when you Latins took it in 1204? When Constantinople grant them autocephaly one by one?
The truth is, the connection is still exist even after the Turks took in. Ecumenical Patriarch was the Milletbashi (Ethnarch). Turkish period (specifically 1453-1833) was the largest extent of Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople connection over the Orthodox World despite underwent captivity and yoke; and when the autocephaly were granted to those churches in 19th and 20th century, it did not made connection with Constantinople lost. (And why would connection with Constantinople that important in the first place? Orthodoxy even never had any earthly center like Vatican does). Intercommunion, commemoration and concelebration between autocephalous churches is still maintained to this day, even this hard times since 2018.
And yes, if there is any weakening of the particular Orthodox faithful elsewhere, be it Ruthenians, Ukrainians, Transylvanians, Albanians or even island in Greece like Syros where majority became papal Uniate or Latin, that was due to evils of Latins be it Austrians, Poles, Venetians or Franks.
Last but not least, Orthodoxy is spreading around the world. Many glorious saints such Jonah of Hankou, John of Shanghai, Raphael of Brooklyn, Saint Tikhon, Alexis Thoth, Blessed Father Cosmas of Zaire, Metropolitan Amfilochios Tsoukos of Pacific did many great thing across the globe. This not to mention ceaseless prayer from contemporary saints such as Joseph the Hesychast, Elder Paisios, Ephraim of Katounakia. These people are off-radar for the Latins but we do SPREAD across the globe, despite small numbers and we do THRIVE despite all odds.
@@LadyMaria obviously you missed the point. how many different nations did the RC encounter throughout the centuries? lands are secondary. if you look at the evangelizing effort it's the RC that went out, orthodox got stuck in their little local areas wasting their time in petty squabble about the church. this whole thing reminds us of the discussion the apostles had regarding who's the greatest. what did Jesus say to them? oftentimes it feels as though orthodox have an issue with the way RC is and they keep saying how great they are but where are the results?
@@artifexdei3671 The RCC converted by the sword, martyred Orthodox, oppressed native peoples, etc.
You guys come to our spaces and insult and degrade us, brag about how great you are. Do you not see that you all do this? You don't have to come here.
Fr Peers said the filioque was inserted in the 11th century, and although true, it misses the history of it. The filioque started in the 6th century as a response to heresies
Fr Peter, can you do a video on Islam?
Necessary. Indeed.
As a venezuelan Catholic interested in Orthodoxy, I agree with what Fr. Peter states in this video in regards to ethnic differences inside the Catholic church. Over here in Latin America, the church recognized that the only way to get certain communities to convert was thru the adaptation of the gospel and its teachings to that specific culture or people. Knowing that, one can understand why a parish in Venezuela or Colombia might have a very different expression of the faith from one in Bolivia for example.
Nonetheless, there is always a middle ground that keeps them together, and I believe the same goes on in the Orthodox parishes.
The "nationalistic" argument is questionable at best.
The expression of Orthodoxy is the same throughout all different Orthodox countries though. I go to as many different Orthodox churches and it’s all the same. In Catholicism the differences between the expressions in different nations are far more extreme than anything you’d notice amongst different Orthodox nations.
I think Fr. Heers's very first criticism, about Hahn's comment about professional suicide, is quite unfair. Sure, Hahn is very successful now, but at the time of his leaving his profession as a Protestant pastor, he had no way of knowing he'd be as successful as he has been. So from his perspective at the time, it is certainly understandable that he would have felt like it was professional suicide since he could not continue pastoring a flock, whereas he could have had be become EO. That is Hahn's point. Fr. Heers misses the point entirely by dismissing his claim based on his current success.
At the same time he says that Orthodoxy is essentially in nothing but an ethnic ghetto. Isn’t that far more a professional suicide? The number of people who are going to read his books in such a setting are far far less.
@@OrthodoxEthos but you seem to be assuming that at that time back then, he already knew he'd make a career from writing books and whatnot. His means of supporting his family at the time was pastoring a flock, and as EO he could have continued to do so, but not as RC. All the rest of Fr. Heers responses are pretty good, but the first one is off as it assumes Hahn already knew the career he ended up having but which he couldn't actually know he'd have. It's rather uncharitable to dismiss him and his concerns at the time. Fr. Heers can be wrong too, just like Hahn can.
Then he put more faith in his career than the Providence and truth of God, that's very sad
With respect- you completely missed his point about professional suicide- he is saying he would not be able to become a Catholic priest if he converted (as he is married) but he could become an Orthodox priest (and be married). This video is far too polemical and keen to see where he is wrong, rather than listening to an honest reflection on why this man decided to become Catholic and not Orthodox.
The Uniates do not confess the filioque and venerate saint mark of Ephesus. Ironically Matt fradd goes to a Uniate parish which You know is absolutely an ethnic parish of some sort. And if I recall correctly there are Monophysite and Nestorian jurisdictions in communion with Rome. Which are ethnic jurisdictions. Not only is the same thing present but they completely lack unity of faith. There is no sense of catholicity ironically
You point out the tragedy, the shipwreck, that is contemporary Catholicism.
And some uniates venerate St. Alexis Toth.
@@NavelOrangeGazer yeah it’s utter ridiculousness
@@OrthodoxEthos why are you concerned about catholic church then if it's a shipwreck. you should be happy. over the centuries it is the catholic church that spread throughout the world, whereas orthodoxy got stuck within original nations.
Correction: The Oriental Orthodox are not monophysites, but rather miaphysites. This was because while the Council of Chalcedon used Antiochian Christology, they were using Alexandrian Christology.
To prove I’m not making this stuff up, look up Joint Declarations: www.trinityorthodox.ca/sites/default/files/Agreed%20Statements-Orthodox-Oriental%20Orthodox%20Dialogue-1989-1990.pdf
www.cam1.org.au/Portals/66/Resources/Documents/OrientalOrthodoxChurches/Coptic_Church_Common_formula_on_Christology_1988.pdf
www.anglicancommunion.org/media/103502/Anglican-Oriental-Orthodox-Agreed-Statement-on-Christology-Cairo-2014.pdf?year=2014
There are vast areas of the U.S. where there isn't an Orthodox presence yet the people are expected to recognize the Eastern Orthodox Church as the true Church. If it is the true Church it must evangelize these populations and plant churches.
I absolutely reject what Mr. Hahn mentioned first. I live in Hungary, I'm Hungarian-Georgian by descent, and am visiting frequently a Russian orthodox church. I don't understand Russian (unfortunately), obviously not even Church Slavonic, but I never got the feeling I was "a black sheep" among ethnic Russians. I am always accepted as a full member of the church. All I can feel is kindness and love.
Of course there are churches predominantly with some ethnic majority, so what?
Orthodoxy has nothing, literally nothing to do with ethnicity. Anybody who says otherwise, probably doesn't even understand orthodoxy, nor has visited a church and talked with the people.
And one thing is to be told. Mr. Hahn is not orthodox, therefore he is not a member of the Church. So in that sense, he was a "black sheep" when visiting the churches. Well, satanists, cultists and so on are also not members. Would we say they should feel being included to a small Ukrainian church with 30 long time visiting, pious orthodox faithful?
Anyone visiting an Orthodox Church should be welcomed. Jesus welcoming the Good thief on the cross into Paradise shows how people that are hurting can very well be looking for Christ's mercy and His Kingdom.
Scott Hahns beginning argument condemns the Eastern Catholic Churches
I'm from the Chicagoland area. We have Mexican Catholic Churches, Puerto Rican Catholic Churches, Southside of Chicago Black American Catholic Churches, and, I may add, near Southside by Chinatown Gay-Catholic-Church runs by a blazingly Gay Roman Catholic Priest complete with sweet feminine voice, weak wrist and all. (You should read a book entitled, "Goodbye Good men". It's about how gay men became Priests and later Rectors of various seminaries throughout the U.S. Then they only select Gay men and / or highly liberal men who do not oppose innovations and novelties... Conservative young men are / were driven away from seminaries. Cardinal Joseph Bernadine exemplifies the worst of it, for example... Grant it, there are a few "sincere" and "holy Priests" in the Novus Ordo (New Order), same word that appears on the US Dollar bills, Novus Ordo Seclorum, means "The New Order of the Ages" because the very foundation of America is Freemasonic. What is Freemasonry? It is Talmudic Judaism for gentiles... This is the foundation of the Founding of America, but this another topic all together. The point I'm trying to make is that the Roman Catholic Church has given way to Satanism a long time ago... Even a Vatican Insider, a Jesuit, and an Exorcist, Father Melachi Martin, states that there was a ceremony of "Enthronement of Lucifer in the Vatican"... Dial up "Papal Meeting Hall", and lo and behold, what do you see? a Serpent with Fangs... This is the Roman Catholic Church, the Western Church... So, Scot Hahn had chosen "unwisely".
Speaking of, the church I was baptized in as a Catholic was and still is a very Italian ethnically based church and I’m from Pennsylvania, so it is still a problem today (maybe not as widespread) but still a problem present in the Catholic in America.
Seems to not understand how many different "rites" that exist in Catholicism beyond RC