Heat Pump vs Freezing January - How Much Did It REALLY Cost
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- Опубликовано: 8 фев 2025
- Did my heat pump survive the freezing cold of January without breaking the bank? In this video, I break down my heat pump's performance and efficiency, revealing exactly how much it cost to run during one of the coldest months of the year.
If you've ever wondered, "Is a heat pump worth it in winter?", this is the video for you. I tracked my energy usage day by day, and the results might shock you! Whether you're thinking of getting a heat pump or already have one, understanding how they handle cold weather is crucial.
🔹 How much power did my heat pump use in January?
🔹 Was it energy efficient or a costly mistake?
🔹 Can a heat pump really save you money in winter?
Watch now to find out if a heat pump is the right choice for your home!
#HeatPump #HeatPumpCosts #ColdWeatherPerformance
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For anyone confused as to why the combined COP is higher than the individual heating or hotwater let me explain. To get the data on individual heating or hot water you have to use the Daikin MMI or App. This is notoriously bad because it rounds up and down the numbers to whole KW. Over a month this can be off quite a bit. In the video I said I dont put much weight on the individual numbers but people asked for them. The combined COP is measured from the heat output and the Shelly Energy Monitor I have in the consumer unit. This is much more accurate, but its downside is it cannot differentiate between the energy used for heating and hot water. So as the combined COP number thats the one you should use. - Hope this helps explain
Hi Jon, Great video! Thanks :). I had the 4 kW Daikin heat pump installed 3 weeks ago. Our house temperature is 21.5 degree during the day, and 19 at night and weekly bill is around £26 - £28 for heating and hot water. I'm happy with my Daikin. Good luck to everyone!
How does it compare to your old heating system?
I pay similar for a combi gas boiler a week .That includes the gas shower.8 Radiators temp 21c .We swittch off during the night hrs after 12.Why should i change tell me?
As a gas engineer who is MCS trained and registered I am not questioning what the cost of a new gas boiler, which will run at greater than 90% more like 95% and taking into account your batteries and solar panels plus the heat pump you are in effect paying "up front" for the figures that you suggest. Please share with us the total cost of the Heat pump, assuming that all the radiators were changed, plus insulation to walls, floors, attics etc plus the battery, plus the solar panels. If you extrapulated that over say a 10 year period a heat pump would not be quite as cheap, oh don't forget the additional cost of servicing a heat pump annually which is far greater than a gas boiler to take into account that you need to do so to retain the warranty / guarantee. I think that that your figures would read totally different to what you suggest
Interesting stuff Chris... so what's the cost of servicing a ASHP and what's involved ?
I have published videos on all these costs, but in summary a new gas boiler was going to cost about £3700 with tank and radiators, the heat pump was £3900 with new tank and radiators. So pretty much equal, house was already well insulated so nothing to do there. My solar and batteries have paid for themselves twice over, we have been adding to and upgrading our setup since 2010 when we first put panels on the roof. I disagree on the costs of servicing, British Gas used to charge me £22 a month for a yearly service and call out if it broke, although they told me if it broke they wouldn’t be able to fix it as it was that old. The heat pump costs me £9 a month for a yearly service and call out plan, and that plan also extends the warranty by 5 years. Once the warranty has expired I can extend it for another 5 if I wish at extra cost
How long is the heatpump going to last, and how big is the house in volume?
I read in the comments ´ 21C, if you call that comfortabele heat i´m not impressed.
@JanVanDerMijnsbrugge The heat pump will last longer than me if properly maintained, house is about 85 square metres. and 21 is what we find comfortable
Had my systems installed since 2005 and never hade a annual service.Why would you? Its basically a refrigirator producing heat insted of cold. Had some repairs two years ago Replaced the fan motor in the air to air. And a cpl hoses on the hot water side, on the ground source system .
It can only be a true comparison when the cost of installation of both systems are factored in as a base line.
i was going to need a new boiler and was quotes 3700, my heat pump was 3900 including some non essential things so basically a wash, so both would have cost the same
@@nib213 our boiler had been condemned, with a quote just under £3k to replace.
Our Cosy 6 cost £500, unfortunately my wife won't allow me to include the difference in the payback... 🤷
If she did, the whole solar, battery and heat pump installation (£12.5k - £3k) would pay back in under 5 years and with the green mortgage we'd be cash positive from day one.
@peter its interesting the ney sayers want to do ROIs on heat pumps but never on gas boilers :-)
@@JonathanTracey Nonsense. When you have a like for like comparison, the ROI is factored into both systems.
Two important figures missing, installed costs and indoor average temperature.
Our solar hardly boiled a kettle this past month with overcast sky’s.
Great Video. Same here in Groningen Nederland. Heatpumps Work. I have a 9 KW LG Therma V Monoblock Heatpump on normal radiators. Cost 3500 euro Google Aircoplaza Zwolle, subsidie was 3000 euro. Warm and Silent. With Rooftop Solar over a year time no Energybill. No Battery. Good video. Thank You. I have no Gas for 13 Years Now. Nobody believed me it Works. Still dont. You are a big help.👍🌹🌹🌹
Thanks for the info, No Energy bills is fantastic, I hope to get to that point this year.
@JonathanTracey hi Jonathan. You are important for understanding Heatpump.
I hope you will make a video Every Month of the results. Most important. Thank You.👍🌹🌹🌹
Thanks @willeisinga2089 that's my plan, will be doing a more indepth live stream this tuesday where I will be diving into my total energy usage and how I hope to raise some money for charity from this youtube journey.
Thanks for the video, Jon. However, you missed out some important information: what part of the UK are you in? What is the standard of insulation in your house? How big is it? What temperatures are you maintaining inside? What temperature do you run the heat pump at?
I used to live I a 200 year-old stone-built farmhouse in northern Scotland. In that case, a heat pu p would be a total failure unless the building was stripped to bare walls, floor removed and modern insulation fitted. I did install both a wind turbine (5kW) and solar (6kW). That far north, the solar was useless in winter, whilst the wind turbine generated an annual 10MWh like clockwork (it is a very windy site!).
As others have said, you need to account for the extra CAPEX spend for your installation, to take account of the cost of money. If you spent say an extra £5000 you are losing interest on that capital (or paying interest on that loan) at either 4% or 7% respectively. That's costing you £200 or £350 per annum (obviously £400-£700 on £10000 extra). Clearly those are just sample numbers.
Hi Steve, I think I covered most of this in previous videos, so going over it again and again just makes the videos too long. But in summary were in East Anglia, A rated for insulation (see video coming this weekend) its about 85SQ and we keep it around 20C during the day and 17 at night. Heat pump is weather dependant so anywhere between 33 and 50 degrees flow temperature. Would love to get a wind turbine but don't have space and wind is blustery in the garden
Thanks for sharing the detail. Very useful
You’re welcome. I’m glad you found it useful.👍
Thanks. Good presentation with nicely done graphs.
Glad you liked it👍
The saving from using a heat pump instead of a boiler is very small and and when the cost of installing a heat pump is factored in - even when taking into account any grants. As the year progresses my gas usage will get smaller until its just a shower and a gas hob for three months of the year but the heat pump will have to be running all the time for hot water or a cold evening in early summer or autumn. My gas bill for this January (EDF) is £94.19 for my 3 bed detached which includes all hot water.
Hey Richard, yep its not for everyone, but as you say our gas bill will decrease, but it will never go away, with Solar we can generate our own power, something you will never be able to do with gas. It’s not right for everyone but as costs come down I think more people will consider it
Richard... as is always the case, it's a far more complicated situation than at first appears. If you have to replace an old gas boiler, then you're probably looking at close to £2k. For me (and everyone is different) the cost to install a ASHP system would cost about the same (after the grant of course). Thus, there is no extra cost. Then, my future running costs would be about 25% of that for a gas boiler. So for some, it's a 'no-brainer' to go the ASHP route.
@@gregevans8939 ASHP and EVs are very similar in their financial savings argument. For the HP if it directly replaces a boiler which was being dumped anyway AND you have space for the equipment AND the radiators do not need replacing AND the house is well insulated AND you have solar AND you get a grant ...then the HP may be a bit cheaper TO RUN than a boiler If any one of my 'AND' items is not there then the boiler will still be cheaper!! (My English Master would have gone nuts reading all my 'AND's)
My sensible reason for not considering a heat pump although my house is well insulated and I could squeeze the equipment into the garage - it is the inflexibility which concerns me. Today 3/2/25 I am sitting in my office at home with no heat on at all - sun shining. I'll be out this afternoon so during the day NO gas and NO electricity for heating. When I get in tonight if the weather has gone cold I'll switch on the boiler at 60 degrees and the house will be warm in 30 minutes.
A heat pump cannot do that - its got to be working all day. When I'm at home all day the boiler runs at 51 degrees so costs about £2.00 per day.
(You can tell I'm having a day off work by the length of this reply!!)
My boiler was 28 years and needed replacing. A heat pump was cheaper than a new gas boiler after the grant. I’ve spent £105 for all my hot water and heating since May 2024.
@@richardlewis5316 Thanks for your reply Richard... as I said, the whole HP vs Gas is a complex one... but just thought I'd correct a few things... 1) it's been proven time and time again, that you don't need a well insulated house for a HP to work. I think that was something that the mainstream media invented, and it keeps getting repeated. 2) You don't need to have solar PV. I don't, and I still make considerable savings. 3) Most (but not all) radiators are already adequately sized. Whilst plumbers have always (well... for the last 50+years ?) been required to do heat loss calculations to tell them what size radiator to install... the vast majority never do... they just fit whatever is easiest/cheapest/in stock, erring on the larger size. This means that in the vast number of installs, you don't need larger radiators installed. Yes... you may need the odd one swapped out...
Anyway... hope you enjoy your day off... I'm having an office day today... ASHP just ticking over... it's warm here (6°C) should be about 10p in electricity for me today...
Would these systems be feasible in areas that the average winter temperature is -15C? and summer temperatures 27C?
Absolutely, there are a number of people commenting on the channel from Scandinavia where they have even colder winters and the summer has hit 27 to 30° regularly
If you're averaging -15C then it's likely better to go ground source if possible, as that completely sidesteps the air temperature affecting the COP.
We sometimes get down to -20C here, but it's not every year, and probably -15C is about as cold as it typically gets, and my heat pumps have worked fine when it was -20C.
2 of mine are rated down to -30C but their heat output is about 50% of what they can do at -10C.
557kWh for the Cosy 6 heat pump in January.
COP of 2.94, however i drive the heat pump hard overnight, when it's coldest, to heat the hot water and then the house.
We only commissioned the solar and battery on the 13th (installation started in November, but that's another story), and generated 60kWh. So I'd estimate generation of 90kWh.
If I'd had the solar and battery all month, I'd have used 467kWh at 7p/kWh, so the cost would have been £32.69.
I'm very happy with that and we were very warm all month.
Sounds like you have it dialed in, Solar + Batteries + Heat Pump is the way forward
Very impressive. My bungalow with storage heaters turned down really low apart from the living room cost me £190 for January with a 10.1p night rate and it was freezing.
I grew up in a house with only storage heaters, was lovely in the morning to sit on them and eat breakfast but they were cold by mid afternoon
Storage heaters are crap unfortunately a heatpump will save you a fortune and keep the house a lot warmer
@shaunbarnsley I wouldn’t say they were crap, but they are an older technology that has probably had their day
I looked into replacing my gas boiler with a heat pump. Sadly my house is old, with solid walls and sloping ceilings that are difficult to insulate. I came to the conclusion that a heat pump would be unable to keep the house at a satisfactory temperature. Further, I have no south-facing roof for solar panels, which is something else I considered.
Insulation doesn't determine whether a heat pump can keep the house at a satisfactory temperature. That is determined by emitter and heat pump sizing.
Insulation only reduces the requirement, enabling smaller emitters and heat pump.
as Ben says, insulation is not the only factor, if you get a survey done you will be in a better position to see what's possible
Hallo Jonathan, you can't separate the running costs from the installation costs. They must be brought into the calculation as well. It must have cost you a lot of money to buy the heat pump, solar cells and batteries. All of this must be factored into the monthly costs and compared to an old gas heater where none of these costs arise.
no they dont, I was going to have to replace my boiler anyway, the heat pump and the boiler were effectively the same price. No one does an ROI on a gas boiler so I am not going to do it on a heat pump. With regards to the solar and batteries, they have paid for themselves 2x over already, so no costs to recoup there
Hi Jonathan, tanks for sharing. It seems that flow temperature has quite some effect on efficiency. What is the flow temperature of your system during this time? And a what temperature do you store your hot water?
flow temperature is weather dependant, when it’s warmer it’s around 33 degrees, when it’s freezing it’s 50. we set our hot water at 43c which is great for showing
@@JonathanTracey I've always heard that hot water must be stored at 60c or above to prevent bacteria. How do you get around this with a heat pump? Presumably the flow temperature will never get hot enough.
@pepperonieyed no you can store it at lower temperatures but once a week you should heat the whole tank up to kill off any bacteria that may be growing, we heat ours to 65C for 2 hours thats sufficient to kill it off if any exists
@@JonathanTracey thanks, that's good to know 😀
Thanks JT for another interesting video. Something I've got to look forward to in the next 6 or 7 months when I hope to get a heat pump installed. Keep the video's coming they are always a good watch.👍
Will do appreciate the support
Hi Jonathan, graet video thanks. Have you got your COP figures mixed up? How can the combined figure be higher than both the heating and hot water COPs? Is the heating COP maybe 3.32 and the overall 3.15?
the individual numbers are from the daikin app/min which has a bad habit of badly rounding numbers, that’s why i said binding use them. the total COP is from my shelly energy monitor which is much more accurate, so that’s why they differ. there is no way with the shelly to break down the numbers for heating and hot water, so have to use daikin for that and shelly for the combine. Sorry should have explained this better
The thing to also remember is that you were probably a lot more comfortable at this temperature.
Oh do doubt, house has never been this warm, and consistently warm
I’m confused by the whole video! It all sounds great until you drill down into it. There are soo many inaccuracies it is beyond being credible. It’s ok putting bar charts up, but where are your workings out? Is the COP accurate? So many people are asking the same thing! Is your heat pump being monitored by something, that you can prove, your dubious figs?
Someone has pointed out that Your Octopus Cosy figs are completely wrong. Where are your workings out for that?
You say that your solar and batteries have paid for themselves twice over, but there is no proof or workings out again. You then say that you only paid 7p per KWh for the whole of Jan for your heating and hot water with the heat pump. Very Impressive.
Nearly everyone who puts these videos out about costs of heat pumps, show there workings out. They also point out what solar and batteries they have and when they purchased them.
the viewers can then see where all these figures come from and how they relate to the lovely bar charts.
if you check the pinned comment there is further explanation of the COP, the rest i’m not going to go into as this isn’t an accountancy class, it’s my figures you can either accept them or not, that’s your choice. if you want “workings out” then this isn’t the channel for you
How much saving have you made over a conventional gas boiler system installation compared with the heat pump, solar panels and batteries. When do you reach break even and eventual profit?
The boiler replacement and the heat pump costs are basically the same, was quoted 3700 for a new boiler tank and radiators, the heat pump cost 3900 for the same setup. Given no one ever does an ROI on a new boiler I'm not going to do it for the heat pump as I had to buy something otherwise would be a very cold winter
Which energy monitor are you using, I’ve got an 8kw Daikin going in and I’d like to get accurate figures into home assistant
i use a shelly EM50, did a video on it a while ago, sorry don’t have link to hand
It's not january all year around so there is only a short window of savings. Personally our heating is off by April and does not come on again until November the savings for us would take decades to pay for the initial outlay of a heat pump. So i'm continuing with an old gas boiler and using infrared panels for a instant heat boost when required. 😊 yes heat pumps work but in the UK our electricity pricing compared to has negates any benefits, yes we could use solar and home storage battery but again the outlay will make it take even longer to recoup the cost of the outlay.
Not saying its for everyone if your happy with your system and your bills then its not for me or anyone to say its wrong. Solar and Battery take about 6-8 years to pay for themselves but from then on its all free
I have not seen the sun in Belgium from october untill 3 days ago, how much sun did you get in Britain during these months if you need it most? In summer if you need it for ac or heating a Pool it makes sense but in wintermonths you cannot live without the grid.
yeah january was pretty overcast, but still managed to generate 13% of my usage from solar, as we go into the summer that will increase massively. not saying live without the grid but i’m trying to rely on it as little as i can
Great presentation of the running costs!
thank you for your support it’s really appreciated 🙏
There are lots of arguments around Heat Pumps Jonathan, but the main one is installation cost. Most people who have had new gas boilers in the last twenty years or so, have had combi boilers, and had their HW cylinders and pipework ripped out to gain space. A new Heat Pump necessitates the cost of all that being reinstated. You say your solar has long paid for itself. Do you have an index linked FIT? That can make a huge difference to running costs. A friend was getting 56pence/kWh a year ago!
Yes its going to be an issue for combi boiler owners as you need to find space for a water tank, so not going to work for everyone. The cost is pretty much neutral if your going to replace your boiler anyways. Yes we had a FIT system (2kw) installed back in 2010, its just been upgraded (thats a long painful process to keep the payments) and that pays nearly 71p a kWh but the remaining 80% of the system is not on FIT so had to pay for itself. The way we did it was once the FIT system was paid off, we invested the profits from that into expanding our capacity with more panels and batteries now the whole thing has paid for itself.
Thanks Jonathan. At 1:50, how can the combined figure (3.32) be higher than either the heating (3.15) or the HW (2.90). I would expect the combined value to be between the two?
It’s because the daikin app rounds numbers inconsistently, so they are calculated based on their round numbers, the actual combined is using my Shelly Energy Monitor
@@JonathanTracey Thanks for explaining. I guess you have to use the Daikin numbers for energy out?
Better than my figures for Jan with an 8kW Daikin : HW 1.57, Heat 3.33, Combined 3.01 - calculated from the numbers from the MMI. And I am south of you!
Seems to be dragged down by my HW figures, which is set to Reheat. Is Scheduled a lot better?
Not sure, we dont do scheduled reheat of water, we have a temp set if its below 43 degrees it heats back to 43 instantly, as the power is coming from the batteries it makes no sense to wait until the night for us
The video needs a note on where you obtain the numbers from, otherwise the graphs and figures are likely to be dismissed as incorrect by viewers.
@@chrisbike123 Scheduled, especially if you program this to run on a cheaper tariff time window, will prove cheaper and more efficient. Max efficiency is gained by programming it scheduling, when outside air temperature is highest. But, our system, we have found, feeds heat into the radiators as well as the cylinder, so it is programmed here, daily, for early morning, so the house is toastier when folk awaken first thing in the morning, (Cosy Tariff)
I recently got a heat pump installed and the HP itself has been great. However I ended up with a unnecessary 50cmx50cm hole in my ceiling due to the surveyors incompetence.
And I had to rip out my flooring so the wiring from the smart meter could be connected to the heat pump.
Octopus are paying for some of the damages but the reality is I'd rather not have those issues in the first place as we cannot replace flooring or Aztec ceiling like for like.
I can't recommend them after my experience but glad it worked out for you.
And thank you for all your videos :)
Yeah that sucks, why such a big hole?
@JonathanTracey the ceiling is made out of Aztec and containins asbestos which requires a specialist to remove. And 50cmx50cm was the suggested area by the Octopus surveyor.
The surveyor thought it was the only way for pipes to be connected from upstairs to the downstairs radiators. However an alternative route was used by the installation team hence the hole being unnecessary.
Hmm thats strange when they did mine they took my word for it, no tests. How old is your house?
@@JonathanTracey it was built in the 1930s and we are pretty sure it has asbestos as we did a level 3 building survey for the house before we bought it.
Ah yes mine was late 90s so they are probably less worried, I think by then all the harmful stuff was banned
Thank you for sharing your complete data. May I ask what’s your house epc rating? My house currently has C.
We have an A rating, more details coming in next weekends video 😂
Very nice! Glad to see you are able to prove it can be cost effective even in the coldest days. Well presented too, I quite enjoyed the virtual white board 😄
thanks I like to keep trying new things, it’s always fun to try something new in the editor
Heat pump, solar and battery. 4 bed detached, home all day. W Yorks location. Total for Jan 1000kw/h. Normal daily usage is 10kw per day no matter time of year. £140 for the month plus standing charge. Highest usages in a day reached 45kw a few times
what size of heat pump do you have?
i've had my ASHP since 14/01/2025 and copied your shelly monitor. i've found that its cheaper than gas. the octopus app alone shows that the gas has moved to electric, but at a lot lower level. i will rigorously stand with you against the FUD's
Thanks @davebax6819 I am sure I will get hundreds of doubters no matter how many times i post the actual numbers
@@JonathanTraceyhave you done a calculation of the capital costs plus the maintenance to factor in to the full cycle costs? While I will likely install a heat pump I replaced my boiler 5 years ago. I expect it to last 15 years. It cost £1700 fitted though I did the water pipe plumbing, bought the boiler and paid £400 for a gas safe installer. That gives me an accounting £142 per year plus maintenance. I do my own so that is zero. I only check the hot water efficiency delta T and flow rate to check the burner and hex performance if it is unchanged no maintenance needed. To get the true cost of gas I have to add £12 per month. I have done some calls for a HP and battery system and on 15 years use I am closer to £100 per month. Thoughts?
You say your saving 78percent compared to your old gas bill but solar panels and battery's cost money to buy iam guessing around 10k at least .until the savings pay for both your not saving @@JonathanTracey
My gas spend was £129.75 for January so I can roughly compare the figures. Of course, that includes the standing charge. Without it, the price would have been £120.52 and it was 1969 kWh. It's important to note that this figure neglects the electricity consumption of the boiler which I have a feeling is around 100 W when it is active. It's a condensing combi boiler and I run it at low flow temperatures.
My electricity spend was £50.19 overall (£82.21 minus £32.02 export) using Octopus Go. Using my EVSE, it's like having a 15 kWh battery. (It's 59 kWh actually but there is only time to charge around 15 kWh per day between 00:30 and 05:30).
I have my system set to export when the home demand reaches 200 W, but the minimum discharge level is 720 W. I know that sounds bizarre but when running discharge at that low level and efficiency just being 60%, it's still effective; what is exported to the grid is still making a small profit and it means I can be exporting for most of the day. It will be interesting to see what happens when my gas boiler is replaced with a heat pump as I have a feeling I will make a reasonable saving.
That installation is starting tomorrow! I'm getting a 4 kW heat pump which sounds ridiculously small, but it should be okay both from my rule of thumb and their calculations. I think it can produce up to 4.6 kW of heat so there is some headroom!
The question will be whether it's worth switching back to Flux; I think the presence of the battery will outweigh the extra hours of cheap rate because they are not all that cheap compared to Go, but I can play with figures when I have some.
The gas figure for the year (Feb 24-Jan 25) is £643.02 including the standing charge. They will be removing the gas on my side so that gets rid of the gas standing charge.
Sounds good very jealous of your V2G. Good luck with install, hope the weather stays good and as warm as it can for this time if the year. Don’t rush to jump tarrifs wait until you have a bit of data to compare
Do you have underfloor heating at home please?
nope just radiators
Thank you for this video. You are very fortunate to have a working smart meter. We've had a smart meter since 2019 and it's never worked. Our mobile signal is nearly non-existent and the Data Communications Company has said we can't have a T3 aerial to get a strong enough signal from the nearest mobile tower. 😢
Have you looked at satellite Internet? We had to go for Skyscanner, the only option available once we moved to the middle of nowhere...it's excellent and now half the price it used to be.
@grahamastor4194 lodge a complaint with the local DNO,then they have to look at alternative solutions.
@patfros unfortunately there are only two communications methods authorised for smart meters in the UK. They either use the 3G phone network or they use a radio frequency network. This makes no sense to me when just about every house has broadband Internet. You should just be able to plug in an ethernet cable and connect to your broadband but apparently SSL encryption which is fine for banking isn’t good enough for the power companies.
Very professional presentation Jon. Great graphics and I like the way you pause when stating the numbers to allow the viewer to digest. Do you present regularly as part of your job?
My summary is….batteries are key in the winter and solar panels in the spring, summer and autumn.
For 2024 with our 31 panels and 10kWh battery we are cost neutral for the whole year (ie zero cost for elec and gas). Historical energy cost was £2.5k-£3k pa and our ‘payback’ is likely to be between 8-10 years. We’ve just got an EV so our payback will effectively be quicker. Once V2X becomes doable then our payback will be even shorter 🤗
Hi steve, yeah, I do this quite a lot as part of my work😂 I actually really enjoy it but I’m always looking to improve to any tips from other presenters are always welcome. yep I’m hoping to be cost neutral this year as well, but you’re absolutely right 8 to 10 years sounds about average, my own system actually paid for itself in about 6 1/2 years so you might be pleasantly surprised. I wouldn’t hold out much hope for V2 X, but I’ll be talking about why I think it’s not coming as quick as everybody expects in a coming video.
Great video! Is this maintaining a constant temperature permanently in your house ?
Yes, it is! We keep it around 20 degrees during the day and 17 at night
We run at 22 daytim. We drop it to 20 ready for bedtime, start to heat to 24 at 4am, and drop it back to 22 at 05:30 when the cheap tariff ends. And yes, the temperature stays at what you set it to consistently.
@pedalpowerpather, I think I may be dropping back further in a week or two, as we get out of the depths of winter we like a cooler sleeping temperature
Great video showing the real costs of using a heat pump and yes it has amazed me regarding the cost.
In my case I have a modern gas boiler that runs at 95% efficiency and used 1500 kw of Gas @ .25 per kw = £92.92p+££4.08 SC .The boiler only runs 7 hours/day max. So by using a heatpump on your calcs it produced 2015kws heat but running 24hours heating your home not sure what desired temp you have set it at. Octopus have been asking me if I want one fitted but now I have seen a proper breakdown of costs it seems an easy decision to make. Have you any idea what the usage is during spring and summer thanks.
Not yet but I am planning do an update each month so by end of the year w will have a full picture
HI , how are you turning 610Kw (rounded) into £140 ish for gas on a 90% version. I get to 610 needs 680 kw factoring efficiency , but that amount at gas rates of 6.5pKw that would be £44 ?
Because its 610kw of electrify not 610kw of heat, it was about 2020 kWh of heat energy that was produced by the heat pump, so you need to convert that into heat so about 2250kWh for a 90% gas boiler. Multiply 2250*6.25p = £140 and change
Very helpful and very well produced
thank you sir 👍
Nice to see the familiar intro with your trademark oversized mugs.
I did miss them in the last few heat pump video intros 😂
lol, it’s my OCD getting the better of me 😂
And I was thinking, "please not the intro with the oversized mug", love the content but not the intro! Looks like you can't please everybody!
@mikebarry I will change it up just for you
Don't on my account, I'm just wierd and surely in the minority!
@@JonathanTracey no, you can't change it, it's your signature.
A bit like Norm Abram and his safety glasses in the "New Yankee Workshop" Intro 🙂
Hi Jon, Great video, whilst most are only interested in the cost to run, it would be good to highlight the difference in CO2 emissions? dave
I have not found a decent CO2 calculator yet that I am happy to rely on results, if you know one let me know
Hi Channel, I have 3 bed detached and well insulated house(new build) I have been advised that I need a 11 Kw heatpump but the SAP calc says 7. I asked why and the company says "just in case".
What do you think
seems excessive i would ask then to justify why, it seems way over powered
Just like you should not undersize a heat Pump, you should NEVER oversize a Heat Pump. That way will cost a lot in electricity.
Your house should be properly evaluated for heat loss and the appropriate size heat pump installed.
My house loss calcs came in at 5.45 @ -2 and Thus a 6Kw heat pump was installed.
A Heat pump is most economical when it is simmering like a stew on the Hob and not when it is cycling on and off.
My House is Constantly 21c.
Did you export anything or did you use excess for the HP ?
Yes, we exported a pitiful 61.72 kWh. I’m going to be going into energy usage numbers for the entire month on a live stream this coming Tuesday. If you can’t join live then the recording will be available afterwards.
@ thanks what size battery storage I have 8.2 useable which gets me grid free through the day at the moment considering HP but wonder if I’ll need more battery storage to avoid peak rate
Yeah I have a bit of a battery problem, in that its never enough :-) we have about 37kWh
How is the combined cop in Jan higher than both the heating and hot water cop I can't figure that one out
I should have explained in the video, (as few videos back I reported the inaccuracy of the daikin app), the Daikin app/MMI is the only way to break down the heating and hot water, however it rounds up and down with incredible inaccuracy’s, thats why i say I dont really pay attention to them. For the combined I use my Shelly EM which has significantly more accurate measuring, but its one failing is it can’t differentiate between heating and hot water. So TL;DR dont worry about the individual breakdowns the main COP is the combined one as is as accurate as I can get it
great video... just a question.. what was your total kwh draw from the grid for electricity for January?
1550 kWh, but thats for two EVs and the house batteries as well
@@JonathanTracey we have used a total of 1732.8 kwh for the year.. but we have gas...9,346.4 kwh.... on going project..
As we migrated more and more to electricity its amazing how quick it goes up, but when you consider each EV used over 350 each, so the actual house uses little :-)
Interesting. But i don't think the sums add up for me.
I did sign up for the original grant after COVID but it all fell through due to shortages and changes in the rules.
I attempted to sign up when the next round came round but one of the heating engineers said to not bother and to keep the boiler going as long as possible... So I'm now playing a waiting game.
I have a 6kW battery, 4kW solar and solar thermal.
My boiler is around 45yrs old. I use 500 to 600 litres of heating oil a year. So the cost was roughly 270 to 324 quid last time I filled up. I don't use the boiler for a large part of the year so can pick when i fill up.
Night temp is around 19 at the moment (-2 outside) and 21 to 22 during the day.
I have improved the insulation in the loft significantly, sealed the floors and fitted double and triple glazing.... I've had to go back and refit all the windows and doors i did not fit myself as the frames were way too cold (thermal camera). I have fitted heat recovery and ventilation.
I'm looking at doubling the battery and replacing the 40 plus year old rads. I have also toyed with putting solar panels on the north side.
I actually generate more electricity over the year then i use. The FIT payments are more then i pay for electricity plus standing charge and easily cover the cost of the heating oil.
I'm wondering if people are missing the trick of improving insulation, draft proofing and ventilation first.
Always insulate first, it will give the biggest improvement for the smallest outlay, if you don't any extra heat will just disappear out the holes. The main area to consider is by moving to electric heating, yes you would use more power but you can generate that yourself, something you can't do with oil.
Hello Jonathan…..We are one week into our 6 kw heat pump install from Aira… Could I ask if you run your heat pump for heating and hot water 24 hours a day for cop efficiency or is there a sweet spot to maximise…..also looking to purchase battery storage Give Energy Gen 3 all in one…again is this a good investment. Thank you also for such a straight talking analysis of gas v ashp……
so we run the heating 24x7 with a day temp of 20 and a set back to 17 at night (although may drop that back a degree or two in next week) A battery definitely helps in this situation
Fantastic news Jonathan…..was having kittens thinking this is on all day…all night…..it’s just a mindset conversion from gas to ashp. Many thanks again…
Yep we did the same, we never had the boiler on all the time, heated in bursts, but now we just let it do its thing
Heat pump for us was great for us. House was lovely. Shame about Agile 😀. Average unit cost 19p. Last January 12p!!
Yeah Agile has been a bit grim, hoping it settles down by March as will switch back to it then
I suppose the real cost is considerably a lot higher once you figure in the overall costs, solar panels, battery bank, ashp, new radiators, labour etc. Most if not all owners of just ashp on their own would be paying more or less the same as they would of been paying with gas/oil.
The install cost of the Heat Pump was almost exactly the same as the cost to replace my boiler so there’s no real saving or benefit there. We already had the solar battery installed and that’s pat itself so that’s why I didn’t factory into the cost. However, if you were doing this from a blank sheet of paper, yes it would be an expensive install but ultimately it will pay for itself. It will just take 8 to 10 years. A gas or oil system is never gonna pay for itself and you’re gonna be constantly at the mercy of energy prices. Until somebody comes up with a way for you to generate your own gas or oil that kind of system is always going to be a suck on your resources.
Ricardo... the whole ASHP/Solar PV/ Battery is a complex topic... made worse by the fact that there is no 'one-size-fits-all' answer and there is a steep learning curve for the end user. Those with an engineering/technical/financial background definitely have the advantage.
@greg I disagree there is a steep learning curve, you can make it complex if you want, but for most people its no different than a boiler, you turn the temperature up and down by thermostat - thats as complex as it needs to be
Really useful information and an honest appraisal of what you are achieving, I thought we were frugal with our combi but we can’t get anywhere near that. Similar 4 bed house, EV, 14.5 kw of battery 5.4 kw of south facing pv ( like you 200.4 kw produced in January). Still not economical for us to bin a 3 year old combi with an 8 year warranty though.
Thanks Lynn, appreciate the support. Yeah throwing out perfectly working boiler isnt a good financial idea, hopefully we can both get a bit more solar generation this month.
I used 1192Kwh of Gas and close to a cubic metre of wood, so cost wise probably similar, my only issue with the heat pump is 607Kwh is a lot of power, my stats for 2024 show that i used a net 685Kwh of electricity for the entire year so if people adopt heat pumps there could be a severe shortage of electricity in the winter, but great to see the detailed analysis here in a real life scenario.
These rumours of energy shortages are just not true, there is plenty of capacity in the grid. What there isn't is capacity for gas. In January the country came within 7 days of running out of gas completely, Nearly 65% of the UKs gas is imported, so were constantly at the mercy of external factors out of our control
@@JonathanTracey Another factor to add to my list of good reasons to switch to a heat pump especially as I have solar panels and home batteries.
@stevesmith yep your never gonna make your own gas in your garden, or if you do your likely to get a visit from the police
Are batteries alone feasible?
yes absolutely but payback will be slower without solar
Thanks for the video. I've enjoyed watching your previous ones too. I've got my heat pump on order.... also a 6kw Daikin .... I'd be interested to know what size battery you'd suggest for your heatpump alone to charge up at the cheap evening tariff? ... we currently have a 5 kw battery which satisfies our domestic use. Cheers
It’s hard to judge because everyone will be different, we have way more battery storage that is probably feasible for most, but a smaller battery coupled with the cosy tariff (so you can charge it up multiple times a day) you can probably get away with 10-15 kWhs
@@JonathanTracey thanks Jonathan
ask your installer to do a demand survey, will give you a ballpark
Good Morning Jonathan please keep up the great work with your heat pump videos. We have a very similar set-up at home to you but I am struggling to know if our heat pump is running efficiently and wondered if you could offer some advice. We have the daikin Altherma 6 heat pump. we had installed an additional ct clamp to measure the power usage which we can see in our myenergi app. But this only shows us the current situation I can't seem to bring all the information together to see what it is using for a day / week /month etc. We have givenergy app for our battery and solar and this works fine and gives us loads of reports but nothing of any worth on the heatpimp. Don't really trust the onecta app. Please help.
Hi Tony, yes its a bit of a nightmare to try and get the data all into one place, as you say the Daikin App is too inaccurate, and using Myenergi (I did try this) it won't record historical data from a non myenergi device. The only solutions I have found that do both heating and hotwater is the ESPHOME Altherma, it requires you to get inside the heatpump to connect it and use something like home assistant to gather data. For me the simpler solution is my Shelly EM50, it gathers energy data accuratly but can't differentiate between heating and hotwater
@@JonathanTracey thanks Jonathan. If I get a shelly unit installed where would I then be able to see the usage? Could we then get daily weekly reports. Thanks again for your advice.
yes one Shelly EM50 can monitor two cirucits via CT clamps then in the Shelly app you can see all the data from live to monthly or even yearly depending on how you want it presented. I take that data into home assistant so I can automate things based on what the heat pump is doing, eg I can stop the car charging if the heat pump is drawing too much energy and restart it later
You must have a large battery capacity to have enough power to run all day. I have a Givenergy 9.5kwh battery and that would not tske me even close to running all day at the 7p rate. My capital outlay was pretty high and I would say some people will get minor savings but very few could reach your monthly cost, and I am in favour of heat pumps.
hey Peter, yes as I’ve said in previous videos I have a ridiculous amount of battery storage, approaching 40 kWh. And yes, I understand very few people will have a battery of that size. This was why I presented the option with cozy as those were smaller batteries can charge them up three times a day on that tariff.
when you take into account the subsidy ,Extra insulation , & larger rads they are just not viable for the majority of UK homes.
We have a combo boiler & only pay about £20 a month for hot water , & the house is heated by 2 7KW log burners that run on free wood obtained from tree surgeons .
yep never said it was right for everyone but when we were forced to change our boiler it was the right answer.
If it's free wood then it's either not really suitable for burning - so can create health and safety issues. Or you need to chop and store it yourself, which takes up time and space. Especially when logs from freshly cut down trees need ideally 2 years before burning.
@@BenIsInSweden How can free wood not be suitable for Burning? Chopping & storing is not a issue either as we have plenty of bunker space . Once split & stored with air flow all is under 18% moisture in under a year
@@seeMEonONLYFANS Depends on the tree it's cut from-some woods are toxic or burn poorly.
How long does it take you to split wood? Even for someone experienced, splitting 540kg of wood (needed to match Jonathan's heat pump output of ~2020kWh-including DHW, which isn’t possible with the free wood) would take around 3-5 hours. That's before factoring in stacking, seasoning, and handling.
At Jonathan's heat pump cost, that’s effectively £8.51-£14.18 per hour of work-not including time spent collecting the wood from storage when needed. So while the fuel is "free," it still comes at a cost in effort and time-something not everyone is willing to put in.
@@BenIsInSweden Breathing the fumes from any chimney will certainly kill any man or beast. Processing the wood actually sees me £500 a year in gym membership .
Great video, but you're not quite comparing costs completely... For the gas boiler cost, you haven't deducted from the gas bill all the electricity that you have available but aren't using in the heat pump. By that, I mean that with a gas boiler, your electricity bill might be zero, or even negative, given that you have a large solar installation... I don't know whether I've managed to explain myself properly.
The numbers I presented are just for heating and hot water, nothing else. That way it’s easier to compare across different situations.
Lots of people have a "90% efficient" gas boiler, but I bet very few people are getting anywhere near that efficiency in reality - almost everyone has flow temperatures that are too high - so your 75% number is probably closer to the mark. And old non-condensing boilers are likely full of scale and magnetite - so are probably getting more like 60% in reality.
I absolutely I know if I actually posted those numbers I’d have the comment section full of people saying my boiler is much more efficient than that😂
Explain to me how your combined can be higher than both the numbers which you combine?
as I said in the video I don't take the separate numbers too seriously, they are calcuated by the Daikin app/MMI which rounds up and down numbers to whole kWh, normally I won't use it but people asked to see the difference between heat and water. The Combined is calculated using my Shelly EM50 energy monitor, its much more accurate (to 4 decimal places) but it can't seperate the energy used for heat and hotwater. So that's why that's the only number i rely on.
Thanks, that was VERY clear.
Glad it was helpful!
@@JonathanTracey This set of idiots need to go, the sooner the better.
i agree but can’t see a “legal” solution
Nicely presented, do you have a figure for how long it will take to cover the capital costs? I think it makes sense if this is part of a new build where the VAT could be recovered but does it make economic sense as part of a refurbishment, that to some extent is dependent upon the payback time & the lost opportunity of deploying the capital for investment. With generally increasing cost of energy over time that payback period could be reduced considerably.
Capital costs of the heat pump were the same as the cost for replacing my boiler (which was on last legs) so I was going to spend the money anyways. I don't like ROI calculations on heat pumps as no one ever does one before deciding on a new gas boiler. The capital on my solar and batteries has been repaid, nearly twice over
For comparison 128m² 4 bed detached eith solar (no battery) and an EV using IOG . Heating COP= 2519/771= 3.21 DHW COP = 131/58 = 2.26 . Cost Heat = £152.80 DHW £4.06 Total £156.86 Gas Cost £183.73. Think I need to consider a battery my monthly bill (incl house and EV) is about £83/mth is it worth it ?
I would get a battery but start small and make sure what ever system you choose its easy to expand, maybe start with 10kWh and see how much that reduces your bills, I have gone way over the top, and tbh it does not make financial sense but we did it over nearly 10 years so easier to justify
@@JonathanTracey I have loads of data and the sweet spot would probably be 15kWh. Just need to convince my other half now 😉
Yep always gotta run the numbers past the finance director 😂
Solar installations plus battery plus heat pump cost of installation assuming you don’t need to have your heating piping upgraded and water cylinder all them costs have to be taken into account. I don’t doubt your figures but you cannot use them in isolation.
So as per previous videos, my old gas boiler was on its last legs. A replacement was going to cost £3700, the heat pump cost me £3900. The solar battery system is something that I’ve been evolving over the last 15 years, it has paid for itself multiple times over so therefore it is not factored into the cost savings. This is why I clearly broke out the cost for using the gas boiler or a heat pump on a standard tariff for the octopus smart tariff. And then gave a separate cost for my usage.
how much was the solar and batteries though, impressive savings
probably about 30k but speed over 15 years, all paid for now.
You missed out the "round trip efficiency" loss of charging/discharging batteries... Buying at 7p will give a cost closer to 8p once you've put it through your batteries.
Yep but its very hard to accurately measure it, just like its hard to measure the electricity a gas boiler user so its easier to just ignore both.
Live i sweden. There have never been a discussion if it works, or not, over here. Have a groundsource (130m deep well) in the main house. And an air/air on the smaller shop where I run my buissiness.
Have worked since 2005. With some small repairs two years ago. (but with thech, one never really knows) As said in the video. If you have a recent installation of another installation. Its maby not the time to do an installation of a new system. Otherwise its like throwing that investment in the bin. If its time to upgrade anyway, is time to think about what to do.
Over here. The discussion is if solar is a viable investment. So far, I have not calculated a decent time for return of investment. Maby a batterybank without solar.
Problem is when its summer and the sun is high and gives mush power. The energy is cheap. Winter and cold. pretty much no sun, and expensive energy. :)
In any case. If going to do a new installation. Get quality equipment, and an experienced/proffesionall supplier and installer. And, experienced with the brand of equippment.
But in siple terms. Its like a refrigirator running backwards. producing heat.
Oh tip for UK. I do visit Uk almost yearly. It seems to be popular to have some wooden covers over the radiators. Remove them, and increase the effisency of your heating system.
Its like putting a insulator over you heat source. Not very smart. :)
Hey, thanks for the comments, yes I fully agree there are a lot of people stuck in the past or just believing the FUD put around by gas installers on youtube who are worried their lively hoods will be impacted. I agree those quaint old covers need to go (they needed to go years ago but now with lower flow temperatures its time)
Hi, How big is your battery? It must be massive, if you can run your heat pump and house electric on it all day.
Can you explain how you got the figures for the Cosy tariff on your chart please, they don’t stack up with mine? £91.17 for 607 kWh equals 15p per KWh. The Cosy tarif average is over 20p.
Yep we have just over 38kWh of battery to except in the worsen circumstance it runs it all day. The cosy figures take a bit of modelling, based on what would I shift to the 3 time periods its cheaper, and how much I can store each timeslot.
@@JonathanTraceySorry, did I miss hear you? I thought you said if you don’t have a battery or solar, but are just on the Cosy tariff it would cost £91.17
your right, i moved my load around into the new time slots but did t take into account the load was my batteries
I'm only 2 months in. We have 15 solar panel, a Tesla Powerwall 3, and the Daiken heat pump instslled by Octopus. Our December electricity bill this year was just over £90. Last december out gas bill alone was £80. If we take that £80 bill, and add on what I used to pay for petrol, and gas and standing charge, we used to be spending around £270! So a £150 monthly saving, and thats sith solar at its lowest point of the year!
yep and come summer won’t cost you a penny to heat water
How much did the total Instalation cost plus the purchase of the electric car?
what’s that got to do with the cost of running a heat pump
@ If you bother to read his reply, he states what he's saved on petrol. Keep up.
No he’s telling you how much he saved but that has nothing to do with how much an electric car cost, thats a whole different calculation and requires a lot of information that I would not be comfortable sharing
Do you use the heat pump to heat your hot water and what temperature do you heat it to?
Yes it does both heating and hot water, we heat the water to 43C and once a week we boost it up to 60C for an anti legionella cycle. If the temp drops below 38 in the tank it automatically switches on and boosts back to 43. Ready for anyone who needs a shower. We used to have it at 47 but we found our mixer showers were just diluting it down with cold,so basically wasting the extra heat
@ Thanks. I didn’t realise they could achieve 60deg. Is that with no “cheating” ie. no heating element in the cylinder, purely the heat pump cycle?
no to get from 50 to 60 it uses the booster (heating element) but we only use that once a week for about 1 hour to ensure nothing nasty grows in the tank
The specs seem to suggest 55 without the backup heater?
I think its depends on how you design the system, mine is designed around a 50 degree flow temperature, it can probably do more but for that we use the booster
Your lucky we private rent, in our 60s, January cost us over £300, liked and subbed 🏴
thanks, yeah we had it drummed into us by our parents years ago, pay the mortgage off as soon as you can
With the calculations for the Gas, did you add the electric usage as well.
Not this time but I have a plan for that, I have installed a monitor on a friends boiler so once i have enough data can roll that in
@@JonathanTraceyI have monitored my gas boiler for a few years now. Januari seems to be around 12 kWh including DHW for burning 1700 kWh gas.
@solace wow that seems a lot for basically keeping a computer running to control the ignition
@@JonathanTracey Not sure if its the same in the UK, but if your only using electricity and not gas, then you won't have to pay a gas standing charge with your set up, further reducing the cost by quite a lot over a year.
@@JonathanTraceyThere is more to a modern modulating gas boiler that consumes power. But 12 kWh is not that much in a full cold month.
shouldn’t you factor in the cost of solar, batteries and maybe heat pump (if wasn’t otherwise a need to replace gas boiler) in your savings? As these will have a capital cost and lifespan
so boiler was 27 years old on its last legs, solar and batteries have paid for themselves already.
I mentioned in a previous post how predictable these are, my January usage was 585 kWh (heating and hot water) at a cost of £81.90 (HP tariff of 14p per kWh).
@dougaldog what EV tarrif is @14p or is that your average price across the whole day?
@@JonathanTracey
Sorry that should have read 'HP Tariff' (I'll amend it).
Which is the British Gas HP tariff currently available.
"Switching to a heat pump can help cut your annual energy bills - and choosing British Gas for installation could save even more. You’ll qualify for our heat pump energy offer, which gives you a discounted rate of just 14p per kWh on electricity your heat pump uses in the next 12 months6."
So it’s only for energy for the heat pump or does the whole house get that price? If so how do they know whats using the power, do they have access to your heat pump remotely?
@@JonathanTracey
In my case it is based upon the annual heat pump consumption figure calculated during the heat loss survey. I seem to remember it was fairly generous and might even pay back a bit more.
Other than that I'm on standard variable rate, and will change at end of year if nothing new offered.
Heat pumps are certainly fine if:
1. You have a modern self build home with top rated insulation and draft reducing construction plus air managed interior - also correct home orientation, heat collecting windows getting daytime sunshine..
2. You can install your heat pump exterior unit in a way that the noise doesnt disturb you nor the neighbours.
3. Be aware you can be very dependant on electricity supply - the UK generation and network is getting very precarious..
But if you have done the sums and the pay off period has been calculated correctly then why not go down your route... Just for most, in the UK poor quality housing stock it is not teally a viable option..
Thanks for your comment! You’ve raised some fair points, but there are a few things worth considering:
Insulation & Home Suitability - While heat pumps work best in well-insulated homes, they’re also effective in older properties with sensible upgrades. Many people assume you need a “perfect” home, but improving insulation and using lower flow temperatures can make heat pumps viable for a wide range of properties-not just new builds.
Noise Considerations - Noise can be a factor, but modern heat pumps are much quieter than many expect. Placement, anti-vibration mounts, and choosing a high-quality unit all help. Most people find them no more disruptive than a fridge running in the background.
Electricity Dependency & Grid Concerns - While it’s true that heat pumps rely on electricity, they’re far more efficient than direct electric heating. The UK’s grid is evolving, with increasing renewables and grid-scale storage to improve reliability. Also, households with solar and battery storage can mitigate concerns about supply issues.
Viability for UK Housing Stock - The idea that heat pumps aren’t suitable for most UK homes is often overstated. Plenty of older homes already run them successfully. With better awareness of radiator sizing, flow temperatures, and insulation improvements, they’re an option for far more people than some suggest.
Ultimately, as you say, if the sums work out, why not? Heat pumps aren’t for everyone, but they’re a great solution for many-often with lower running costs than expected! 😊
Sounds great news I just need to get solar panels and batteries
The best time to install solar was 15 years ago, the second best time is today 😂
Long story but we’ve had to cancel the heat pump installation 2 days before the installation due to finding out we’re on a loop system and our neighbours have a HP and EVS
So on hold for the moment😡😡
Just got our January (1st - 31st) gas bill £180 inc standing charge so trying to work out a comparison
We’ve got 14kwh of batteries
Argh thats disappointing, the DNOS are really dragging their feet unlooping properties, have they given you an idea of how long you will need to wait?
To say I was upset was an understatement
Our 2year old drive would have to come up so I cancelled everything
Slept on it for a few days and the have reopened the case and I’m waiting to see how it can be done with the least disruption
I’ll eventually have to bite the bullet anyway
I’ll let you know
Are they saying you have to pay for the un looping, if so check with the DNO as I believe there is a requirement for them to do it when asked at no cost
@
No cost but it’s how the drive will look after they have done it I’m worried about
They should put it back as they found it (but bet they wont)
It's cute that people in UK think heatpumps don't work when it's cold, when there are plenty of heatpumps here in Sweden where it gets a lot colder than it gets in UK. -15°C happens every winter in most of Sweden, and they still work. Air source heat pumps are everywhere.
Also, even with a ground source heat pump, I'll spend 7000kWh/year for it. 2000 kWh in a single month if it's really cold.
Heat pump technology is cool. My long term heating SCOP is 3.7 and I have a 1950s house designed originally for an oil furnace with 65°C design temperature for the radiators at -20°C.
This is what I keep saying, you guys get proper winters and I have travelled all over Scandinavia and seen Heat Pumps everywhere, either your all very cold or they work a treat :-)
I have a 12Kw ASHP in Lancashire England. For 5 days in January 2025 we had overnight temperatures of -10*C with no better than -2*C during the day. Heat pump works through radiators not underfloor heating and the house was never cold. I have to include that good, well thought out insulation is a must. Wouldn't be without the ASHP now, although I am on standard tariff electricity since DCC can't seem to connect to my smart meter so I can't take advantage of TOU tariffs.
Yeah its a bit of a scandal that smart meters up north dont seem to work and DNOs are doing nothing about it
How do your costs of electricity differ to UK prices?
@ Typically 10-20 eurocents including everything (tax, VAT, electricity, transmission fees etc).
It's crazy hearing how much some people pay for thier gas. I have a combi boiler and Nest thermostat controllers, one for upstairs and one for downstairs. Fair enough I have a 7 year old house and as an editon I have digital controllers on each radiator to zone control every room.
I only heat what and when i need, it makes a bit of a difference and my bill is only £20 per month.
I had my meter inspected for tampering as they told me I didn't pay enough as other people on my estate! 🤣
Yeah, it’s certainly possible for people to lower their bills, but everybody circumstances are different. Both my wife and I work from home and my mother-in-law lives with us most of the time so we need to keep the house constantly warm during the winter. Doing that on gas would effectively bankrupt to me. It’s unbelievable that the energy companies first thought is that you’ve tampered with your meter rather than you’re actually doing something to save energy, I suppose that says something about them not you.
@JonathanTracey I'm hoping to get solar installed sometime, I'm quite lucky to have a South facing roof that gets no shading, and I will certainly consider electrical heating to cut down further more on the gas use.
I think the Heat pump route will come at the point of my heating system replacement.
These videos show us what we can look forward to. Thanks.
While you're suffering through freezing weather, down here in Oz, especially the part I live in, we're getting smashed with heat. We have four air conditioners that use the same technology as heat pumps, only in cooling mode, and have been running them 15 hours per day. That's 21kW of cooling power, 15 hours per day. Total cost to run? $0. Thankfully, we are blessed with abundant sunshine and have 15kW of solar panels. We also have batteries and are no longer connected to the grid. We don't even have a backup generator. The efficiency of these heat pump/air conditioners is what allows us to do this. I can't understand the negativity toward these miracle machines.
You really have a modern day miracle, taking free sun and turning it into free cooling, I can’t understand why people aren’t jumping on this.
What about the upfront costs? Say L33000 pound. Running g it for 15 years, brings a monthly cost of 183 pounds. Or do I miss something here?
What upfront costs, the heat pump cost almost the same as a new boiler so I was going to spend the money anyway. My solar and battery system has paid for itself (twice)
What about your government grant@@JonathanTracey
I never saw it, it was paid to octopus but my out of pocket expenses were 3900 so thats what it cost me
I dispute you figures a little bit as your aren't factoring costs for losses due to DC/AC conversation so you will actually pay a fraction more than the per KwH quoted,, and the bigger cost of all your upfront costs for batteries, solar etc, etc. I'm not anti heat pump and in fact had done the £200 deposit with Octopus and survey etc, I just couldn't make it work this time, but will 100% revisit again in the near future.
Yes there are conversion losses but it’s almost impossible to measure accurately, the gas prices should also have the few kWhs of electricity that the boiler uses, but again hard to measure. So all things being equal we just measure it at the point of consumption. With regards to the cost of solar and batteries, this is why I gave options, for those with the cosy tariff and the standard tariff. The cost of the batteries and solar are already paid for, they paid for themselves years ago, so nothing to account for
Well, it all might be true, but you forgot to add a 'little' detail to all the calculations, which is the cost of installing solar panels, batteries to store your energy etc.
Then you are going to come up with absolutely different number.
The cost of my solar system is not relevant because its paid for itself (twice over), given parts are 15 years old and cost 3-4x what a system today costs it would be impossible to make a fair comparison. Someone starting out today could buy a system for 1/4 of what it cost me
Yes they do wotk. In Australia we have one for winter and summer and we solar panels. Our last electricity bill was in credit by about $150. Helped to pay the expensive water bill. However, it’s the initial layout that can be the problem, especially in UK.
is water expensive down under?
There is no provision in your figures for the cost of your battery. As it’s been explained to me the cost of cycling a home battery is 13p per kwhr. That makes a huge difference to your calculations. I’ve run a Daikin heat pump myself for over two years, and would happily run a battery if the sums added up.
I think your maths may be wrong, if that was the case these home batteries would effectively be worthless in a couple of years. My wife has a Nissan leaf with a 24 kW battery, it has been charged to 100% every single day for 10 years and is lost about 5% of its total charge.
I’m looking at industry figures for the cost of, including capital, of cycling a home battery is. They vary a bit from installer to installer , but 13p isn’t far off the mark.
I will defer to your but I think its way off, if that were the case the batteries would be worthless in a year or two, when the reality is they last so much longer than anyone considered. Ask why they are willing to warranty the battery for a decade at 80% capacity. My old tesla model S lost 6% in 10 years
Really interesting data. I just need to find some capital to invest in a heat pump along with a battery. I also need to convince the financial director aka my 'better half'.
Always get the financial director on board before you start otherwise the fines are astronomical 😂
Just as a comparison. The average uk domestic electricity consumption without HP heating is 8kwhr. You used 3 times as as much electricity as an average house. Do you want your electricity bills to triple? Let’s get honest.
Lets get honest my total power bill gas and electric has gone done by over 90% in the last 2 years, yes if you look at January in isolation its high, but in June I will generate nearly a mega watt of power, which more than makes up for it. if you going to use the "average home" don't forget to add 30-50kwh of gas per day, plus how much for petrol to run their cars, all of that is included in my numbers. So yes I want my electricity bill to be high as I can generate 85% of it myself
@@JonathanTracey Fair enough. But solar and battery costs in the region of £15k. That’s around 8 years of electricity. I get the self generation. I get the self sufficiency but l,ets be honest. Nett around £8k for a decent heat pump with radiator and pump upgrades plus £15k for solar and battery takes a lot of years to break even. Without factoring in the expense of servicing the HP. The honest answer is that there is little if any financial benefit to switching over. Certainly not in the short term. Questionable even in the long term. I’m not saying this as anti any of the new technologies. I work in the sector. My business is energy management, automation and control. I am a low carbon consultant. But the economic argument is not there. It isn’t. These technologies are more expensive than our existing technologies. They are more complex than our existing technologies. Let’s have an honest debate. HPs are the price they are because you get a £7.5k grant for installing them. Grants only up the price. It has always been this way. HPs aren’t even new technology so let’s ask why they have never caught on before. I deal in this sector every day of the week so I have these conversations every day. I do not ever say that one technology is the best. I only demonstrate the facts. In the right circumstances then HPs work incredibly well. But in the wrong they don’t! There is no one size fits all. Whenever anyone just bangs on about how great one thing is and how much better it is than everything else I just go back to the story of the emperors new clothes. And before anyone gets frothy, yes, HPs work. I’m not saying that they don’t. I am saying they are not always the right or best solution in every situation. But I do feel that you open yourself up for criticism when you sugar coat the information and cherry pick the stats to “prove” your point of view.
I do believe your data and you are now saving money on your power cost. But the bit you have left out of this is your installation costs of solar, battery backup and heat pump. Please if you are going to supply the public these favourable benefits then let's have the whole cost included.
my solar battery system has been installed and upgraded over the last 15 years. The reason I don’t share what it cost is honestly I don’t have an accurate figure. given how much I paid for it and how much the hardware has declined price over the last 15 years. It wouldn’t be anywhere near a fair comparison to what somebody would pay today. In my other videos I’m fully transparent about the size of my system what’s involved all the different parts of it so everyone should be able to work out if they wanted to buy a similar system today, what it would cost. That said my system has also paid for itself twice over so to me there is no cost for it at all.
So at 73 we install solar, batteries, heat pump, change rads and pipework, live 10 yrs, we will gain nothing.
Depends if you’re only planning to live in another 10 years, they always say the best time to install solar panels and batteries for 25 years ago, the second best time was today. Even if you installed them today you would rip the benefits for the next 10 years(if that’s all you plan to be around for) and for that 10 years you would have significantly reduced energy bills. I’ve always been planning to make sure that during my retirement most of my pension isn’t going into the pockets of shareholders of large energy companies.
Your saving 78percent of your gas boiler costs but solar and batterys cost money to buy iam guessing 10k
10k is lot of money towards gas electric bills
My Solar and Battery system has paid for itself twice over already
My heat pump install starts tomorrow 🎉
congratulations, hope the weather stays warm, or at least as warm as it can be for you.
Hey, you combined cop is higher than space and tank. Seems wrong…you want to double check
Should have made it clear, the COP figures for each are based on the MMI from Daikin, it seems to round numbers inconsistently, the actual COP is based on my Shelly data
😊👍
🎉🙏
Thanks for the video! I don't think many people are getting 90% efficiency out of a gas boiler. That's not representative. This does show that a heat pump alone is going to be cheaper over the course of the year than gas would be, and if you can invest in battery and solar, the running costs can be extremely low. But, battery and solar tech is pricey and components will degrade over time, so probably not for everyone.
Yes but I wanted to avoid arguments over my boiler is more efficient that that, is generally accepted combi boilers are in the 90% ball park and older condensing boilers like my old one are more like 75%
750lts of oil last 1yr, less than £500. No thanks to heat pump.
if that works for you, but have you considered what happens if oil doubles or triples in price. it’s not like you can make your own, with electricity you can make your own with solar
So you saved because I assume your tariff costs much less than what most of us pay (you didn't state the kWh price for each cost in your comparison)? In which case, once those cheap tariffs are no longer around, and they won't be if these hideous things are installed everywhere, it will cost a fortune. 607kWh of use "might sound a lot" -- well that's because it is!
what evidence do you have that smart tariffs won’t be around, they have been around for 50 years, and given they help the DNO balance the grid it’s unlikely they will go away. however what i can predict with near 100% certainty is you gas prices will go up, this year and next and for the rest of your life. So better to have solar and electric heating that way you can keep your money rather than buying energy company share holders a new boat.
@JonathanTracey I guess you have evidence that energy providers will keep giving cheap energy to increasingly more people, even when demand on the grid increases? These tariffs will disappear once more people need them and then you can kiss good bye to your cheap tariff. It's common sense, economic sense. Gas will increase yes, by design to force people to give it up. Fact of the matter is you used over 600kWh of electric in a winter month and that is large, you can't deny that. Also, where did you get 50 years of smart tariffs from? Smart meters were introduced around 2011 in the UK. I appreciate the video you took time to make but costs and usage are important. Right now I pay nearly 28p a kWh for electricity imagine that at your usage. The fact is the tariff is making it cheaper for you, not the equipment and that gives immense control to the energy companies/government in the future.
@JonathanTracey I appreciate the video you made very much -- however 600kWh is a high amount to use in a single month, all be it in winter. Therefore, in my opinion your tariff is what makes this whole thing cheaper, not the equipment you have. Once the energy companies realise they no longer need to give these very specialist type tariffs, they simply won't or they will put costs up. They keep telling us costs are so high, war here war there, gas linked to electricity etc, then how can they offer these very cheap tariffs that you have? It's because they can't in reality but the more people they get on them the more they will make in the years to come. Imagine your electricity usage at my cost of 27p per kWh, it will be huge -- then enjoy what you pay while it lasts.
A lack of evidence does not prove an argument but historical data and an understanding of how the grid works will show you why they need these tariffs as much as we do
@craiguk82 the energy companies need the cheap rate tariffs more and more, its about balancing the grid, otherwise they would have to shut down generation at night when the country needs 20% of what it uses in the day