I get your sentiment, but I don't think that's fair anymore. Many, if not most, if not all religious people usually have very specific reasons for holding whatever beliefs or traditions close to them. They are often linked to real events that happenned to someone, somewhere, in the past.
@@rigelb9025 Its still fair: Whenever something happens to you and your interpretation of what that is is completely wrong because of your ignorance (both lack of knowledge about reality as well as lack of interest in that knowledge), then the word "delusion" is spot on.
You are equivocating between the different meanings of delusion, namely the 'mental ilness' and 'having a false belief' meaning. Religious people are delusional in the sense that they hold beliefs that are most likely false, but they are not delusional in the sense that they are insane, i.e. mentally ill.
@@Nexus-jg7ev Its the exact same type of delusion: - Somebody, who claims to be able to talk to Julius Caesar is mentally insane, but - somebody, who claims to be able to talk to Jesus of Nazareth is just a believer? No, because its the same type of believing something: The existence of supernatural beeings. Both are not not on the same innocent level as believing that the eggs purchased yesterday will be still good to eat next week e.g.. If the eggs turn out to be bad next week, its just an easy to correct, every-day-error, but the belief that some god created the world in a way incompatible to all what we know about the world and that he has specific orders for humans how to live their lifes or punishment is due - thats a clear malfunction on the mental level.
think the internet will see off christianity....young people dont seem to have much time for religion.....where as before pastors\vicars told you something but now people can research and see if its true
@@Pmrace1960 "Do your own research" I don't trust this sentence anymore.. People have only become more radicalized in the age of the internet. I was disturbed to find that Christianity is on the rise amongst young men right now.
You’re right. Christians in America nowadays look more like Pharisees because of the reasons you mentioned. If Jesus would step in a church today churchgoers would call him a liar and then will stone him to death
@@fluxfaze why do you all feel the need to be “ right “ instead of just letting people be? I’m sure that there hypocrisy and self righteous where ever you live.
@@Pmrace1960what's thar preacher who boasted about buying to big jets "cash". J C managed with his feet and the occasional donkey. Wonder if he's read the rich man, heaven, needle bit
@@Linda-rz6wy America is just about the worst of it. The problem is that many Christian conservatives think that it is their mission to convert everyone to Christianity. They want prayer in schools, banning the teaching of evolution, obsessive teaching of 'American Excellence", criminalizing homosexuality, and generally want to infuse fundamentalist Christianity into politics at all levels. You can't have a free society when there are people that want a theocracy and will believe whatever they want, regardless of the actual facts.
@@dino9071you are wrong. Spoken like someone who hasn’t been anywhere other than your own country. Religion has poisoned the whole world. What a stupid comment.🙄
What a feast to watch and listen two very inteligent people discussing controversial matters with so much class. Good food for thought, be yourself an atheist or a firm believer. And thank you, Richard, for your long lasting crusade to erradicate dogmas, superstitions, false beliefs and radicalism attached to most religions. “Scientia vincere tenebras”!
@@carguy99I'm intelligent with an I Q in the 180s but can't spell to save my life as I am dyslexic. I'm very good at problem solving , finding new ways to do things and other talents but spelling just is not my thing.
@carguy99 I did not observe that the other guy spelt intelligent wrong. I would rarely catch something like that. Without spell check my posts would have plenty of mistakes in them. It takes me much more time than most to type as my mistakes/misspellings are very frequent.
What a lovely, refreshing, rational conversation. Juxtaposed against the absolute craziness that is America 2024, wow. This is one of the best 30 minutes I've had in a long time. I know it is not anybody's responsibility, but...more, please!
I would argue that Americans are not religious, they attend social and community events in churches, mosques, temples and synagogues. An American once told me the difference between Christianity in Australia and America is that “religion in Australia is an inch wide and a mile deep and in America religion is a mile wide and an inch deep”.
I think you may well be right. We make a big show of being religious in America and do that thing we are admonished not to do in the bible which is “to be seen among men” with our displays of religiosity. “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.”
Not being religious is our default. We are not born religious. To me it’s a bit like marriage, people get married, some don’t. Not being married is our default position. Those who are religious or married need to think why they have chosen to change from the default rather than the other way around. Edited to add “in my opinion”.
I tend to disagree. We are born with intuition and must be trained to think critically using inventions like the scientific method. We are born with the facility to believe that the Earth is probably flat, the sun/moon/stars go 'round the Earth and that an intelligent deity designed all living things because that's the way it all *looks* and that's good enough for our intuition. We are all born "religious" imho.
No, it depends on family and education, and there’s no “neutral” or “default” understanding of the significance of our place in the cosmic structure and scheme.
100% God beliefs are conceptual constructs introduced to human beings post birth, usually early in childhood for the concept to have highest probability of being adopted. It's ludicrous to argue that we are born with any specific god belief. Some previous comments confuse capacity to hold a god belief with actually holding a belief.
What a great experience, to be able to listen in on a conversation on such interesting subjects, delivered with such care and intelligence, thank you.❤
Americans are extremely religious because of peer pressure. A friend of mine lives in the so-called 'Bible Belt', and he said you will not survive there if you don't become a Baptist or church-goer and adamant believer in the Lord. It's a terrible thing to think that religion gets that much control over people, but people cave in easily when they are surrounded by neighbors who live in a fantasy world.
@@davetekannon Judging from a bit of personal experience, I am inclined to agree with you. Visiting the deep south 25 years ago, I whispered a question, in church, to my American host: ”How many people in here do you think are hypocrites?” He whispered back: ”About a hundred per cent”. When we had left, he explained: ”Church is where you go to hear the latest gossip and show off your new clothes.” In his mind, it was, in other words, exactly what you describe.
Thank you very much for the excellent discussion. I agree that the term atheist has negative connotations in society. Don't we already have a suitable alternative in "humanist"?
I use the term "non-theist". I think that sounds more neutral. "Humanist" might still carry some baggage in that religious people think that you were saying that humans are the highest life form and there is no God. Non-theist says you don't follow any supernatural belief.
I think the word “atheist” is heard by most people almost as though it was one syllable. They don’t hear the “a” in front of “theist”, meaning “not theist”. Might as well say communist of child abuser or dog killer - it has that kind of bad connotation. Yet we are all atheists - about someone else’s religion. I think there probably is something higher than we can sense through our senses. But I don’t know.
As a European I don't have the impression that atheism is seen negative ... The more I see and read about and from the US, the more I know why Europe sent off their religious Taliban
What Ian McEwan described that he used to do as a child before going to sleep sounded alot like classical symptoms of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Another point, the Archbishop of Canterbury was just forced to resign over a child sex abuse scandal.
As I said to Richard Dawkins when I met him at an event here in the San Francisco Bay Area, my hypothesis is that at the time when religious belief went in to decline in Western Europe, it became reinforced in the USA by becoming part of the post-war American identity. Specifically, being accepted as a good, patriotic American meant standing in opposition to Communism. This meant subscribing to a set of values that included being a practicing Christian, in contrast to the atheism of Communism.
I'm sure that is a part of it, and that may suggest the governments were pushing it onto the citizens. The opium of the masses, for the purpose of control. Difficult to prove, but it wouldn't surprise me.
@@gowdsake7103 according to Marx, it did. Although forced atheism does not lead to rationalism. I’ve spent a lot of time in China, and they believe all sorts of superstitious stuff there. In any case, it wasn’t about what Communism actually was. It was about what Americans BELIEVED it to be. Americans saw atheism as a characteristic of Communism and so included it in their collection of attributes to be in opposition to.
You are joking! What about all the unscientific language from evolutionists because they cannot prove anything about their fake theory, every other word out of their mouths is probably, possibly, perhaps, it might, it must, it maybe, it could have, we think, we hope, we expect, we believe, we feel,,,, etc these words don't describe scientific facts! They're making it up as they go along and you've fallen for it! Every image of a dinosaur or hominid you've ever seen in a book museum or when watching Jurassic Park is fake, a lie intended to program your mind! Wake up...
Listening to Peterson I have always thought him to be a fraud and an intellectual charlatan, who when cornered on any subject just spouts absolute verbal diarrhoea as a cover up.
The exact same experience at around age 12 as Ian- am dumbfounded in this moment! that for my years of finding my way to atheism that was the age it began! Was raised Lutheran and started my confirmation studies at this age. I began having nervous ticks and anxiety at this age, had no idea it was because I didn’t feel comfortable in the worshipping being forced upon me, there was a heavy dose of “fear the Lord Jesus Christ in our house” better be good or god will punish you. I am a content curious and at peace healthy 70 year old thanks to Richard Dawkins and his many brilliant conversations! Have the utmost respect and gratitude for him❤️🇨🇦
This is very on point. The way you both communicate I find highly agreeable and enlightened. This is pretty much the kind of talks my spouse and I have in the morning with coffee for hours. Especially the point from 16:00 onward. Thank you! 🎉
I think that's a somewhat naïve, if not obtuse understanding of the term. I'm no expert on the topic, but I would tend to think it has more to do with connecting one's thoughts & feelings, sometimes with incantation, either as an individual or as a group. It can't be used for instantly setting a broken leg though.
@@rigelb9025 if you assume the existence of a timeless and all knowing god, prayer makes no sense whatsoever. Whatever the content of any prayer may be, that god knows what it will be before the person starts praying. If the purpose is to affirm submission to that god, it already knows what goes on in all of our heads, so there's also no point. The only usefulness of prayer is as a mental placebo for the person doing the prayer to give an illusion of control over events we have no direct control over, like all the people praying after a disaster happen.
@@nicolasandre9886 To me it's not so much about begging to an external omnipotent entity to grant wishes, it's more about grounding the self & channelling one's emotions, in times of duress. Whether or not it can have some invisible impact on the outside world, I really don't know, but that's not what I'm banking on if ever I do it (which is on occasion). But that's just me.
@@rigelb9025 so it just has an effect for the person doing the prayer. It also can serve as a social activity when believers pray in groups, but that's all the actual effect prayers can have. This can be as easily achieved by being a fan of a sports team, or discussing with other fans of fictional literature, movies or video games. Prayer just has this extra unhealthy vibe of pretending you're submitting to an inaccessible all powerful being that either does not exist, or otherwise is incredibly uninterested in acknowledging its followers.
I rather think that autistic lack of empathy, and therefore morality, is grossly overplayed. For 'severe autism' read 'autism with intellectual disability'. Autistics with no intellectual disability are some of the most moral people around. Often autistic morality is rather inflexible, but it is often profound. I am speaking as a diagnosed autist who is quite functional in society, though I have problems. I have a PhD in molecular biology and am married with two children. Distress in other people affects me greatly, it is just my response to such distress that may not be typical of non-autistic people. Rather than give someone a hug, or make pointless 'there, there' remarks, I would tend to offer advice about the situation causing the distress. The empathy is definitely there, as is the desire to alleviate the distress.
I completely agree. Often autistic people feel others emotions even more intensely than an average person. They just don't know how to show this with expressions and social behaviors in quite the same way, but the empathy is there. In terms of morals like you said, autistic folks will often be intensely committed to truth and being moral. They are known to not lie, or at least tend to lie much less than the average person. This is because their brain does not see into the complicated social reasoning, they just simply see truth as best/logical/why would someone lie to another? Technically neurotypicals are way more inclined to manipulate, scheme, and lie because their brains are not wired like autistics.
I agree with you. I used to work in the social services field and supported numerous people who lived with autism. It is a spectrum not a specific designation. I worked with many people I got to know well personally and came to understand that “difference” does not mean “less than.” I now live with Alzheimer’s disease myself. The gradual decline of my cognitive abilities may make me different from others but I do not accept that I am less than anyone else.
Having worked with an amazing group of highly talented autistic colleagues as a job coach/mentor, I am so pleased that you posted this. My colleagues were as moral as any neurotypical group and included some ‘super-empaths’ who could become overwhelmed by the emotions of others.
So now instead of praying to help your loved ones, the last thing you do at night is watch porn or some other garbage! Interestingly, actual research has shown, that those who pray are far more likely to survive injuries or surgical procedures with less than a 5% chance of survival! Regardless of what you believe, prayer can make significant differences in your own and other peoples lives. There's absolutely zero proof evolution, because they cannot create life and don't know what life is or why we are alive! Dead things cannot evolve! Every image of a dinosaur or hominid you've seen in a book is fake! You've been lied to! But search in your heart for God, (not in the sky for an old man) and you'll know God is very real! Seek and you will find!
@@andrewmorse7912 I wouldn't be embarrassed, I wasn't, I would tell anyone, especially when I loved someone enough to put them on my list of people I prayed for, it was sort of like Pascal's wager. At the end of the day nearly all of us were indoctrinated, it wasn't our fault. Even though I thought religion was ridiculous, because I grew up with friends from a lot of different faiths and at an early age I realised they couldn't all be right, so they must all be wrong. But I still believed that there was a god I just thought religion was man made, the when I was 28 a friend said, "oh! You still believe in god." That small sentence got me thinking and because I now had the internet I started actually questioning my belief and within a few weeks I was an atheist
He didn't say that he prayed, he said that he hoped for their safety. which is perfectly acceptable. anyone that cares for their loved ones should do that.
Rather - religion follows ignorance, it is where the adherents come from. Many plusses come from religion, most centre around the cohesion of the tribe, the caring nature, the invocation to strive to be more moral. Atheism doesn't offer that. But in the modern world, society that has ready transport, our tribe is what we do, not where we live. Minuses are: the "creeping infallibility" that evolves over time, the rise of chancers who recognise opportunities to control and take advantage of a group.
@@johns.7297 The people work their boring, sometimes underpaid jobs and with blind good faith generously donate to their church. Preacher man proudly holds out his hand for a cut. No boring jobs for him. Well it’s mostly “hims” because churches still operate on the idea of male superiority.
I belong to a community of American poets and many are devout Catholics. I can't wrap my mind around this! I can't unwrap it either, or unpack it; perhaps I should make a video unboxing it?
I'm Catholic but have been moving away from it. I'm becoming doubtful of the afterlife . This has been coming since 2018 after a near death experience. I was revived but in that few moments I was gone I never knew it happened until I was revived. Lights out means lights out.
Precisely oh you’re a non believer you poor soul. Rather, grow up! Believe in reality and the real world and a progression of knowledge and more knowledge in the knowledge that the majority firmly believed and were told to believe that the Earth was flat and was the centre of all things. Mankind think it is the pinnacle of the universe
When I was setting up an "Atheist" group locally some years ago the whole discussion of framing/ naming was a big topic. It had been "The Unbelievers of...". But I did not want it to be a negative/ negation of... After lots of discussion we settled on FreeThought/ Freethinker. But no that is not the same as Atheist. Plain and simple the word has a very specific meaning that nothing else does. Perhaps rather than changing it, new framing is needed. around the time of "Brights" I started using "SHAFTS of Light". S.ecular H.umanist A.theist F.ree T.hinking S.keptic ... of Light. (Candle in the darkness)
Naturalist: Naturalism is the acceptance that nothing exists beyond the natural world, or universe. Instead of using supernatural or spiritual explanations, naturalism focuses on explanations that come from the laws of nature; scientific evidence.
I'm there too but as an individual. I just refer to myself as a "true seeker." Everyone thinks they are a seeker and they do seek to some extent but the manner is different. A theist for example tries to make everything fit what they were told to believe in. They seek but with a closed mind. They must cherry pick and contort scant evidence in their efforts. A true seeker looks with an open mind. Religion by definition is very closed minded. So much reality must be denied to fit in there. It requires fearful, simple minds. And that's just what evolution gives us.
Yes, my quite extensive experience of life suggests that that a significant proportion of people have no empathy, particularly those who reach the top of their professions. Also I think those of us who do have empathy have the ability to switch it on and off when it suits us.
I think the reason Americans are so religious is based on the way America was settled geographically. Large tracts of land and a disperse population makes human contact less possible. This gives people a sense of vulnerability. Being that, humans are a herd species, the desire to regroup is amplified when separated for any length of time. The only place people could gather in 'herds' was in the church on Sundays. The captive audience was primed for messages of hope, safety and justice. Once a family becomes religious thier offspring generally carry the same tradition.
For a long time, I had the idea that I could get help from someone somewhere in the cosmos. It was by becoming a Buddhist that I finally shook off the Christian God.
I finished the genetic book of the day and LOVED IT. 10/10 👏🏻. I’m upset with myself that I missed your book signing when I attended your Washington event. But I will keep the book and read it multiple times over my life! 🧬
Ian McEwan says that we must not be cruel to others so that they are not cruel to us. There is a substantial difference here with Christianity, which says that we must love our neighbors. Then he acknowledges that "it was a remarkable step to build a religion around the idea of love", but adds that it is not necessary for a God to ordain our moral priorities, because we can do that perfectly well. “Our laws are secular above all,” he says, perhaps forgetting that secular laws can also be a historical evolution of religious norms. Dawkins then retorts that religion used "an original morality that was instinctively there", giving as an (extremely optimistic) example "this utter inability to be happy when another creature is suffering, which we all have." Faced with Dawkins' Darwinian certainties, Ian McEwan seems more skeptical to me. He always prefers the "free inquiring spirit." Finally, both say they hate the terms atheism and atheist, as they sound negative. Finally, both say they hate the terms atheism and atheist, as they sound negative. But Ian again departs from Dawkins by rejecting replacing the term atheist with "bright" because this insinuates that believers are dim.
Religion is so important for those who commit violence, crimes under the name of it:. Priests, politicians, church leaders, youth educators, mostly fathers, you name it.
Nope, they choose to believe what they knew were lies. This is more accurately described as being intellectually dishonest with one’s self. They were not convinced period. They knew better.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." - First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution Almost 250 years ago these words were lain down by the founders. How revolutionary these ideas must have seemed for the time, yet how critical they are to a system of justice and liberty. Let us never forget them.
Some Christians argue that actually the First Amendment wasn't so much about separating Church and State as preventing conflicts between different sects and denominations, that every congressman believed in the Christian God, they just didn't want more European style wars of religion
Not exactly true as you stated it. That was the story we Americans painted up about our History to look good! Those that actually still believe that are not yet awoken!!! USA
Would be interesting to here similar discussion with David Brooks of NYT or UK similar - how do they cope with these challenges to their faith/conversion etc;
Loved this chat, fascinating stuff, thanks chaps, I know it is an old video but it is so refreshing to have a discussion and not a shouting match in todays political landscape
We don't need to put a positive spin on atheism in the UK, as you tend to assume that everyone already is as non-religious yourself until you get some indication otherwise. Even then nobody makes a big deal about it. Secularity is progressing very nicely without the kind of conflict so evident in the USA. How about sticking with the negativity in the US and calling atheists simply non-delusional?
@WPFinlay Hi, your quoting John 14:6.... do you believe the bible? For if you do you should like Galatians 1:8-9 & 1:13 in which Paul used his position in scripture writing to stop other followers of Jesus writing or preaching any scripture Paul was not preaching. After Jesus real original Appostles of which Paul was not one of, publically called a liar and stop Paul from using the title Apostle on himself, (2 Timothy 1:15). Which is why the Gospels are said to be attributed to not written by, and if you check the dates attributed to them its after their deaths... Don't mistake what I'm telling you as just some rant from a person against religion, my comments have been fact checked and I would encourage you to also fact check anything you hear about religion....as I often say religion needs the hell fact checked out if it.
Interesting the comment on athiesm and spirituality. As part of a committee organising a conference on Ethics, Economics and Environment down here in Aoteoro/NZ many years ago I became friends with a Catholic nun. She was well aware of my aithiesm, we had many deep discussions on religion, and one day she deeply shocked me by saying that I was a very spiritual person! Initially I took it badly but when I thought of my connection to nature and my concern for social justice etc I realised that it was possible to be spiritual without being relgious and believing in sky fathers etc. Indeed organised religion recognised that and harnesed it exert power over others.
@@Pmrace1960 I agree. I have horses and the other day I said to my much loved 28 year old stallion - we are growing old together - I'm 72. Trouble is, I'm aware of it - and he's still frolicking about every now and then - blissfully unaware that time's running out - whereas we humans are having to deal with managing our old age - and we understand we are on the downhill run - so rather than accept it peacefully many choose to believe they are heading off to heaven. Your comment was wise.
I will listen to this interview in a few minutes, to get the thoughts of these gentlemen... but I believe the answer to the question is very easy: A seriously deteriorating public school system, caused by budgetary restraints as well as political and religious interference. Let's see if these two gentlemen agree with me :)
The short answer is America was largely founded by a band of religious zealots who ended up being thrown out of Europe because the normal people there could no longer stand them⚛❤
I am a new subscriber to this channel but a long time fan of Richard. I think one contemporary view that explains the perseverance of religion in the face of so much evidence to the contrary can be sourced from Yuval Harari. In his writings, he eloquently explains how our grand fictional stories such as religion, or especially religion, unite us and allow us to form large functional groups that have accomplished much. Perhaps atheism should focus on replacing these fictions with factual stories that can unite us in a similar fashion. I expect this would be a multigenerational task!
Naturalist: Naturalism is the acceptance that nothing exists beyond the natural world, or universe. Instead of using supernatural or spiritual explanations, naturalism focuses on explanations that come from the laws of nature; scientific evidence.
Trump knows the tounge speakers are nutters.. we know he will do anything to get the votes When has he ever gone to a evangelical church meeting ? ...it won't happen ..
"...that's very odd in a country that has a Constitution and whose Founding Fathers staked out a world quite distinct for the religious absolutism of old Europe. Odd how religion has come in through a kind of back door..." "...a totally secular foundation..." These references to the mythology of the United States obscure the reality that by the time of the Revolution, the colonies were a well-established highly stratified European-style society with a national economy based on chattel slavery and the export of raw materials. The colonies were founded to be exploited, just like any European colonization efforts. The colonies were also founding in part by people fleeing their OWN religious persecution, but with little regard to the idea of tolerating other religions within their own communities (and further if they could enforce it). Exploitation and religious intolerance were the founding values of the colonies, and well in place by the time of the revolution! The history of the United States is one of a never-ending conflict between what the Unites States IS, and what the Unites States PURPORTS itself to be in the ideals and principle propounded by the "Founding Fathers," with the so-called "conservatives" the inheritors of the exploitation/intolerance values and their ardent defenders against every subsequent movement to expand the IDEAL of the Unites States to people other than white men with property - no inch of that ground has ever been given in the history of this nation without a struggle. The Unites States is not a religious county - it's a nation of shameless hypocrites. A Christian's so-called "deeply held beliefs" apply ONLY as long as they don't interfere with their lifestyle and prejudices. Even the liberal Christians have to cherry-pick the Bible, science and history just as much (if not more) as the evangelicals they criticize, because the whole lot are just different versions of the same hypocrisy and belief in the patently ridiculous.
I find the same here in New Zealand. No-one I know seems to have any religion, or at least they certainly don't feel any need to proselytise to anyone else. I strongly believe it's the former. We're a very secular society. An interesting point of contrast with the US would be that I can't remember a single NZ politician mentioning god or religion, other than a single right wing, nut job Christofascist party and the ill-fated Christian Heritage Party of a couple of decades back, whose leader spent a couple of years inside for child rape.
I live near a Yorkshire village church and see the dwindling flock arriving each Sunday. They are split into three groups:- Young couples who need to attend a minimum number of times in order to qualify for a Church Wedding. The very old. The very strange. Soon as the old die and other romantic wedding venues open, only the strange will be left.
Thank you so much. I've felt uncomfortable for years with being defined as a-theist, to be defined against something that, for me, simply doesn't arise. And I consider myself to be spiritual but I feel absolutely no need to have a God.
I don't care about religions untill they interrupt me or rule over humans, religions should and must be only personal and in your private space,... Science and wisdom are my priority
I am an American 'atheist' and am always surrounded by religious people, and it is uncomfortable for me to be around self righteous Christians who wear their religion on their sleeve, who think I am a delusional fool, that I am lost in a world without a moral compass. We in the US are getting more religious it seems. Apparently, in most of rural America Mr Trump is God's choice. Sad, nauseating.
One of Richard's interviews that's thoroughly enjoyable to watch. I'm with Ian that the branding of atheists and secularists as 'Brights' always felt a bit naff. I'm glad it has seemingly evolved into extinction.
'A sense of its wonders' says McEwan about the world. Indeed! This morning I get up to see the landscape around me here on the Isle of Arran glowing in the light of the rising sun - mountains, trees, autumnal bracken, even the sea beyond - everything. I could not but thank the Creator for such a Gift. Such beauty that seems to serve no purpose - unless the Cosmos itself has a purpose. Atheists should not be afraid to explore ALL avenues of thought and human experience. They might just be depriving their followers of a richness that can only shine in its fullness when the Source of it all is allowed to come into the picture.
'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,-that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know'.The words of John Keats (leading English poet, but you might say that he too was 'rather purile' - 'puerile' of course is the spelling! I don't think Keats could be called childish - which is the meaning of puerile - too easily). I notice how the people on this site have their minds well made up with very little sign of any being willing to explore beyond a fairly dated negative position in relation to Christianity.
When one person suffers from a delusion, it’s called insanity. When many people suffer from that delusion, it’s called religion.
I get your sentiment, but I don't think that's fair anymore. Many, if not most, if not all religious people usually have very specific reasons for holding whatever beliefs or traditions close to them. They are often linked to real events that happenned to someone, somewhere, in the past.
@@rigelb9025 Its still fair: Whenever something happens to you and your interpretation of what that is is completely wrong because of your ignorance (both lack of knowledge about reality as well as lack of interest in that knowledge), then the word "delusion" is spot on.
@@petermeyer6873 Perhaps, but it's not always delusional, and delusions can occur on the secular side as well.
You are equivocating between the different meanings of delusion, namely the 'mental ilness' and 'having a false belief' meaning. Religious people are delusional in the sense that they hold beliefs that are most likely false, but they are not delusional in the sense that they are insane, i.e. mentally ill.
@@Nexus-jg7ev Its the exact same type of delusion:
- Somebody, who claims to be able to talk to Julius Caesar is mentally insane, but
- somebody, who claims to be able to talk to Jesus of Nazareth is just a believer?
No, because its the same type of believing something: The existence of supernatural beeings.
Both are not not on the same innocent level as believing that the eggs purchased yesterday will be still good to eat next week e.g.. If the eggs turn out to be bad next week, its just an easy to correct, every-day-error, but the belief that some god created the world in a way incompatible to all what we know about the world and that he has specific orders for humans how to live their lifes or punishment is due - thats a clear malfunction on the mental level.
Religion is strongest, where there is an educational vacuum.
think the internet will see off christianity....young people dont seem to have much time for religion.....where as before pastors\vicars told you something but now people can research and see if its true
@@Pmrace1960 Pareil pour l'islam et le judaïsme.
@@Pmrace1960 "Do your own research" I don't trust this sentence anymore.. People have only become more radicalized in the age of the internet. I was disturbed to find that Christianity is on the rise amongst young men right now.
@@timotmon in the US christianity has fallen from 74% to 63% in the last 10 years and seems to be going only one way.........
More people lean toward faith when politics fails.
Hypocrisy is the number one hobby in the USA with self righteousness coming in second.
You’re right. Christians in America nowadays look more like Pharisees because of the reasons you mentioned. If Jesus would step in a church today churchgoers would call him a liar and then will stone him to death
Which makes their "religion" Phariseeism, and we know what Christ said about the Pharisees with the expletives deleted.
I agree...and I'm American. 😢
Another recent phenomenon in the US , is an anti science, anti academia thing going on. Ignorance is proudly worn like a badge of honour .
@@fluxfaze why do you all feel the need to be “ right “ instead of just letting people be? I’m sure that there hypocrisy and self righteous where ever you live.
Always refreshing to listen to brilliant people in peaceful conversation about things that really matter.
I agree with your comment, well put. I felt the same way; it was like letting the sun shine in and feeling inspired and refreshed.
The money to be made in religion is also very important. There is a strong sense of grift in all religions...
The money that can be made by getting people to vote the way you want them to by using religion is _far_ more lucrative than straight grifting.
catholic church worth $20 billion.............
@@Pmrace1960what's thar preacher who boasted about buying to big jets "cash". J C managed with his feet and the occasional donkey. Wonder if he's read the rich man, heaven, needle bit
@@markbriten6999 The irony is in that story J C rode a Donkey, not an Elephant.
@@edm-london1660 errr how. As an atheist I'm not expected to pay to anything. Jesus wept you ex po ect me to tithe
Thank you Richard and Ian for a very thought provoking conversation.
Actual title: "Why is America so clueless?"
Not just America, but the world.
Not all Americans are clueless, we just live our lives and people can believe or not believe whatever they see fit.
@@chiendinh-je2xino just America.
@@Linda-rz6wy America is just about the worst of it. The problem is that many Christian conservatives think that it is their mission to convert everyone to Christianity. They want prayer in schools, banning the teaching of evolution, obsessive teaching of 'American Excellence", criminalizing homosexuality, and generally want to infuse fundamentalist Christianity into politics at all levels. You can't have a free society when there are people that want a theocracy and will believe whatever they want, regardless of the actual facts.
@@dino9071you are wrong. Spoken like someone who hasn’t been anywhere other than your own country. Religion has poisoned the whole world. What a stupid comment.🙄
Because admitting that you have been fooled is more embarrassing
Good on you, Richard! I have always admired your "crusade" for the truth. Greetings from the most atheist (bright) country in the world, Czechia. ❤
What a feast to watch and listen two very inteligent people discussing controversial matters with so much class. Good food for thought, be yourself an atheist or a firm believer. And thank you, Richard, for your long lasting crusade to erradicate dogmas, superstitions, false beliefs and radicalism attached to most religions. “Scientia vincere tenebras”!
How ironic...you misspelled intelligent...
@@carguy99I'm intelligent with an I Q in the 180s but can't spell to save my life as I am dyslexic. I'm very good at problem solving , finding new ways to do things and other talents but spelling just is not my thing.
@briancarton1804 that puts you in the profoundly gifted category. So gifted you don't use your spellchecker option??....hmmm...
@carguy99 I did not observe that the other guy spelt intelligent wrong. I would rarely catch something like that. Without spell check my posts would have plenty of mistakes in them. It takes me much more time than most to type as my mistakes/misspellings are very frequent.
@@briancarton1804don’t beat yourself up over the unkind words about your spelling.
What a lovely, refreshing, rational conversation. Juxtaposed against the absolute craziness that is America 2024, wow. This is one of the best 30 minutes I've had in a long time. I know it is not anybody's responsibility, but...more, please!
I would argue that Americans are not religious, they attend social and community events in churches, mosques, temples and synagogues.
An American once told me the difference between Christianity in Australia and America is that “religion in Australia is an inch wide and a mile deep and in America religion is a mile wide and an inch deep”.
You are pretty darn accurate! 😢 USA
I think you may well be right. We make a big show of being religious in America and do that thing we are admonished not to do in the bible which is “to be seen among men” with our displays of religiosity.
“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.”
Not being religious is our default. We are not born religious. To me it’s a bit like marriage, people get married, some don’t. Not being married is our default position. Those who are religious or married need to think why they have chosen to change from the default rather than the other way around. Edited to add “in my opinion”.
Well put. It seems that conditioning/indoctrination at an early age is behind the change from default position.
I tend to disagree. We are born with intuition and must be trained to think critically using inventions like the scientific method. We are born with the facility to believe that the Earth is probably flat, the sun/moon/stars go 'round the Earth and that an intelligent deity designed all living things because that's the way it all *looks* and that's good enough for our intuition. We are all born "religious" imho.
No, it depends on family and education, and there’s no “neutral” or “default” understanding of the significance of our place in the cosmic structure and scheme.
I definitely think we're born inquisitive and have a natural sense for "poetry" and whatnot, but not religious
100% God beliefs are conceptual constructs introduced to human beings post birth, usually early in childhood for the concept to have highest probability of being adopted.
It's ludicrous to argue that we are born with any specific god belief. Some previous comments confuse capacity to hold a god belief with actually holding a belief.
Thanks!
What a great experience, to be able to listen in on a conversation on such interesting subjects, delivered with such care and intelligence, thank you.❤
Americans are extremely religious because of peer pressure. A friend of mine lives in the so-called 'Bible Belt', and he said you will not survive there if you don't become a Baptist or church-goer and adamant believer in the Lord. It's a terrible thing to think that religion gets that much control over people, but people cave in easily when they are surrounded by neighbors who live in a fantasy world.
Your friend is telling the absolute TRUTH. As a 68 yo (now non- believing American...I can testify to that truth!!! 😢
@@davetekannon Judging from a bit of personal experience, I am inclined to agree with you. Visiting the deep south 25 years ago, I whispered a question, in church, to my American host: ”How many people in here do you think are hypocrites?” He whispered back: ”About a hundred per cent”. When we had left, he explained: ”Church is where you go to hear the latest gossip and show off your new clothes.” In his mind, it was, in other words, exactly what you describe.
Not for me; if anyone asks me what church I go to I tell them I am an atheist. If they don't like it tough shit.
Thank you very much for the excellent discussion. I agree that the term atheist has negative connotations in society. Don't we already have a suitable alternative in "humanist"?
I use the term "non-theist". I think that sounds more neutral. "Humanist" might still carry some baggage in that religious people think that you were saying that humans are the highest life form and there is no God. Non-theist says you don't follow any supernatural belief.
I think the word “atheist” is heard by most people almost as though it was one syllable. They don’t hear the “a” in front of “theist”, meaning “not theist”. Might as well say communist of child abuser or dog killer - it has that kind of bad connotation. Yet we are all atheists - about someone else’s religion.
I think there probably is something higher than we can sense through our senses. But I don’t know.
Mark Twain said.
Religion was invented when the first conman met the first fool.
Thank you Richard🙏🙏. Good to know I’m far from being alone in my unbelief. ❤️❤️
This is not disbelief, but common sense.
I'm confused... You mention your "unbelief," yet you employ the 'praying hands' icon?
Sarcasm?
@ No I use it as my way of saying thank you
As a European I don't have the impression that atheism is seen negative ...
The more I see and read about and from the US, the more I know why Europe sent off their religious Taliban
What Ian McEwan described that he used to do as a child before going to sleep sounded alot like classical symptoms of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.
Another point, the Archbishop of Canterbury was just forced to resign over a child sex abuse scandal.
Enough said
to be clear, the Archbishop himself was not the abuser charged, rather he resigned to accept responsibility for mishandling the issue...
As I said to Richard Dawkins when I met him at an event here in the San Francisco Bay Area, my hypothesis is that at the time when religious belief went in to decline in Western Europe, it became reinforced in the USA by becoming part of the post-war American identity. Specifically, being accepted as a good, patriotic American meant standing in opposition to Communism. This meant subscribing to a set of values that included being a practicing Christian, in contrast to the atheism of Communism.
I'm sure that is a part of it, and that may suggest the governments were pushing it onto the citizens.
The opium of the masses, for the purpose of control. Difficult to prove, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Communism does not mean lack of religion
@@gowdsake7103 according to Marx, it did. Although forced atheism does not lead to rationalism. I’ve spent a lot of time in China, and they believe all sorts of superstitious stuff there.
In any case, it wasn’t about what Communism actually was. It was about what Americans BELIEVED it to be. Americans saw atheism as a characteristic of Communism and so included it in their collection of attributes to be in opposition to.
Thanks for sharing.
Very accurate! Thank you. USA
It's difficult not to contrast the clarity (and modesty) of Ian McEwan the wordsmith with the word salad of Jordan Peterson the academic.
You are joking! What about all the unscientific language from evolutionists because they cannot prove anything about their fake theory, every other word out of their mouths is probably, possibly, perhaps, it might, it must, it maybe, it could have, we think, we hope, we expect, we believe, we feel,,,, etc these words don't describe scientific facts! They're making it up as they go along and you've fallen for it!
Every image of a dinosaur or hominid you've ever seen in a book museum or when watching Jurassic Park is fake, a lie intended to program your mind!
Wake up...
Not all of us see Jordan Peterson as an academic. IMHO...he's a pontificating blow hard who loves to APPEAR as an Academic! USA
So true
Listening to Peterson I have always thought him to be a fraud and an intellectual charlatan, who when cornered on any subject just spouts absolute verbal diarrhoea as a cover up.
Religiom grows on ignorance.
The exact same experience at around age 12 as Ian- am dumbfounded in this moment! that for my years of finding my way to atheism that was the age it began! Was raised Lutheran and started my confirmation studies at this age. I began having nervous ticks and anxiety at this age, had no idea it was because I didn’t feel comfortable in the worshipping being forced upon me, there was a heavy dose of “fear the Lord Jesus Christ in our house” better be good or god will punish you. I am a content curious and at peace healthy 70 year old thanks to Richard Dawkins and his many brilliant conversations! Have the utmost respect and gratitude for him❤️🇨🇦
My parents bought me up to be religious but it didn’t stick.I just have good critical thinking skills
Ha! Me too. And my parents can't understand why. But they watch television and I read books!
Thank you .for this ! The timing is so crucial!
This is very on point. The way you both communicate I find highly agreeable and enlightened. This is pretty much the kind of talks my spouse and I have in the morning with coffee for hours. Especially the point from 16:00 onward. Thank you! 🎉
If prayer worked, we would not need the medical profession
I think that's a somewhat naïve, if not obtuse understanding of the term. I'm no expert on the topic, but I would tend to think it has more to do with connecting one's thoughts & feelings, sometimes with incantation, either as an individual or as a group. It can't be used for instantly setting a broken leg though.
@@rigelb9025 if you assume the existence of a timeless and all knowing god, prayer makes no sense whatsoever. Whatever the content of any prayer may be, that god knows what it will be before the person starts praying. If the purpose is to affirm submission to that god, it already knows what goes on in all of our heads, so there's also no point.
The only usefulness of prayer is as a mental placebo for the person doing the prayer to give an illusion of control over events we have no direct control over, like all the people praying after a disaster happen.
@@nicolasandre9886 To me it's not so much about begging to an external omnipotent entity to grant wishes, it's more about grounding the self & channelling one's emotions, in times of duress. Whether or not it can have some invisible impact on the outside world, I really don't know, but that's not what I'm banking on if ever I do it (which is on occasion). But that's just me.
@@rigelb9025 so it just has an effect for the person doing the prayer. It also can serve as a social activity when believers pray in groups, but that's all the actual effect prayers can have.
This can be as easily achieved by being a fan of a sports team, or discussing with other fans of fictional literature, movies or video games. Prayer just has this extra unhealthy vibe of pretending you're submitting to an inaccessible all powerful being that either does not exist, or otherwise is incredibly uninterested in acknowledging its followers.
@@nicolasandre9886 I think prayer can heal, prayer can unite, prayer can uplift our souls. You can come to me if you wish.
So refreshing to listen to you Richard. I regard it as touching base.
I'm feeling very spiritual and peaceful after listening to this wonderful conversation.
❤❤❤❤more love to u
I do too...followed by embarrassment. 😢 USA
@@briobarb8525trump is hell
But spirituality is fraudulent
What strange camera angles? We only saw Ian not Richard the whole time.
I rather think that autistic lack of empathy, and therefore morality, is grossly overplayed. For 'severe autism' read 'autism with intellectual disability'. Autistics with no intellectual disability are some of the most moral people around. Often autistic morality is rather inflexible, but it is often profound. I am speaking as a diagnosed autist who is quite functional in society, though I have problems. I have a PhD in molecular biology and am married with two children. Distress in other people affects me greatly, it is just my response to such distress that may not be typical of non-autistic people. Rather than give someone a hug, or make pointless 'there, there' remarks, I would tend to offer advice about the situation causing the distress. The empathy is definitely there, as is the desire to alleviate the distress.
I completely agree. Often autistic people feel others emotions even more intensely than an average person. They just don't know how to show this with expressions and social behaviors in quite the same way, but the empathy is there. In terms of morals like you said, autistic folks will often be intensely committed to truth and being moral. They are known to not lie, or at least tend to lie much less than the average person. This is because their brain does not see into the complicated social reasoning, they just simply see truth as best/logical/why would someone lie to another?
Technically neurotypicals are way more inclined to manipulate, scheme, and lie because their brains are not wired like autistics.
I agree with you. I used to work in the social services field and supported numerous people who lived with autism. It is a spectrum not a specific designation. I worked with many people I got to know well personally and came to understand that “difference” does not mean “less than.” I now live with Alzheimer’s disease myself. The gradual decline of my cognitive abilities may make me different from others but I do not accept that I am less than anyone else.
Glad to read your comment. As an autistic adult, I feel the pain and suffering of others deeply and physically.
Having worked with an amazing group of highly talented autistic colleagues as a job coach/mentor, I am so pleased that you posted this. My colleagues were as moral as any neurotypical group and included some ‘super-empaths’ who could become overwhelmed by the emotions of others.
@@artharrison9586 Based on your comment, I would say that you still have great cognitive abilities. Best of luck!
I would love to know how old this interview is????
What Ian said about praying for his loved ones before he fell asleep is exactly what I used to do before I became an atheist.
So now instead of praying to help your loved ones, the last thing you do at night is watch porn or some other garbage! Interestingly, actual research has shown, that those who pray are far more likely to survive injuries or surgical procedures with less than a 5% chance of survival! Regardless of what you believe, prayer can make significant differences in your own and other peoples lives.
There's absolutely zero proof evolution, because they cannot create life and don't know what life is or why we are alive! Dead things cannot evolve! Every image of a dinosaur or hominid you've seen in a book is fake!
You've been lied to!
But search in your heart for God, (not in the sky for an old man) and you'll know God is very real!
Seek and you will find!
I had a similar habit before driving my car. Went on for years from 18 onwards. I’m glad he mentioned his as I find it a bit embarrassing.
@@andrewmorse7912 I wouldn't be embarrassed, I wasn't, I would tell anyone, especially when I loved someone enough to put them on my list of people I prayed for, it was sort of like Pascal's wager. At the end of the day nearly all of us were indoctrinated, it wasn't our fault. Even though I thought religion was ridiculous, because I grew up with friends from a lot of different faiths and at an early age I realised they couldn't all be right, so they must all be wrong. But I still believed that there was a god I just thought religion was man made, the when I was 28 a friend said, "oh! You still believe in god." That small sentence got me thinking and because I now had the internet I started actually questioning my belief and within a few weeks I was an atheist
He didn't say that he prayed, he said that he hoped for their safety. which is perfectly acceptable. anyone that cares for their loved ones should do that.
I thought it sounded a bit OCD.
Ignorance follows religion.
Correction...Ignorance also often precedes Religion! Both can be true...or not!
Rather - religion follows ignorance, it is where the adherents come from. Many plusses come from religion, most centre around the cohesion of the tribe, the caring nature, the invocation to strive to be more moral. Atheism doesn't offer that. But in the modern world, society that has ready transport, our tribe is what we do, not where we live. Minuses are: the "creeping infallibility" that evolves over time, the rise of chancers who recognise opportunities to control and take advantage of a group.
The religious preacher entrepreneur provides social benefits while lining his or her pockets.
@@johns.7297 The people work their boring, sometimes underpaid jobs and with blind good faith generously donate to their church. Preacher man proudly holds out his hand for a cut. No boring jobs for him. Well it’s mostly “hims” because churches still operate on the idea of male superiority.
the famous apologists such as william lane craig frank turek sean mcdowell are all multi millionaires..........plenty of money in religion........
I belong to a community of American poets and many are devout Catholics. I can't wrap my mind around this! I can't unwrap it either, or unpack it; perhaps I should make a video unboxing it?
I'm Catholic but have been moving away from it. I'm becoming doubtful of the afterlife . This has been coming since 2018 after a near death experience. I was revived but in that few moments I was gone I never knew it happened until I was revived. Lights out means lights out.
Terrific conversation between two sincere learned men. The world needs more of this sort of time taken to consider things that matter.
Instead of the word ‘atheist’ how about ‘adult’?
just "Human" would do it, nothing more nothing less.
Instead of “God “ how about “nature” or “ evolution “ ?
Precisely oh you’re a non believer you poor soul. Rather, grow up! Believe in reality and the real world and a progression of knowledge and more knowledge in the knowledge that the majority firmly believed and were told to believe that the Earth was flat and was the centre of all things. Mankind think it is the pinnacle of the universe
When I was setting up an "Atheist" group locally some years ago the whole discussion of framing/ naming was a big topic. It had been "The Unbelievers of...". But I did not want it to be a negative/ negation of... After lots of discussion we settled on FreeThought/ Freethinker. But no that is not the same as Atheist. Plain and simple the word has a very specific meaning that nothing else does. Perhaps rather than changing it, new framing is needed. around the time of "Brights" I started using "SHAFTS of Light".
S.ecular
H.umanist
A.theist
F.ree
T.hinking
S.keptic
... of Light. (Candle in the darkness)
Naturalist: Naturalism is the acceptance that nothing exists beyond the natural world, or universe. Instead of using supernatural or spiritual explanations, naturalism focuses on explanations that come from the laws of nature; scientific evidence.
@@iamcosmicdude Just out of curiosity, how many times are you going to copy/past this comment here? I've counted at least three times thus far...
I'm there too but as an individual. I just refer to myself as a "true seeker." Everyone thinks they are a seeker and they do seek to some extent but the manner is different. A theist for example tries to make everything fit what they were told to believe in. They seek but with a closed mind. They must cherry pick and contort scant evidence in their efforts.
A true seeker looks with an open mind. Religion by definition is very closed minded. So much reality must be denied to fit in there. It requires fearful, simple minds. And that's just what evolution gives us.
@@pcbacklash_3261 I have a groupie!
I don’t think we all have empathy. There are certain neurotypes have an inability to empathise.
Yes, my quite extensive experience of life suggests that that a significant proportion of people have no empathy, particularly those who reach the top of their professions. Also I think those of us who do have empathy have the ability to switch it on and off when it suits us.
Fascinating conversation. Best just listened to as the camera work is distracting.
Thank you for bringing hope and insight in what are politically very dark times in the US.
I hope!!! USA
A very intelligent conversation.
I don’t believe in believing.
Yeah, I try not to even use those words if describing my own thoughts.
I use words like,”I think” or “I’m convinced” or “I accept” or “I know”
I believe you
I believe in not believing.
@ you better not
All sentences with "all" are wrong
I think the reason Americans are so religious is based on the way America was settled geographically.
Large tracts of land and a disperse population makes human contact less possible. This gives people a sense of vulnerability. Being that, humans are a herd species, the desire to regroup is amplified when separated for any length of time. The only place people could gather in 'herds' was in the church on Sundays. The captive audience was primed for messages of hope, safety and justice. Once a family becomes religious thier offspring generally carry the same tradition.
So, why are we such heathens in Australia?
I will buy that book. Anything from R. Dawkins is superb material 😊😊
For a long time, I had the idea that I could get help from someone somewhere in the cosmos. It was by becoming a Buddhist that I finally shook off the Christian God.
Me too! THANK GOD! 😅. USA
I finished the genetic book of the day and LOVED IT. 10/10 👏🏻. I’m upset with myself that I missed your book signing when I attended your Washington event. But I will keep the book and read it multiple times over my life! 🧬
Richard Dawkins is the best of all time
Je pense comme vous, et je relis souvent ses livres.
He's fantastic.. I still feel Hitchens moved the needle more on explaining the absurdity of religion
In the greatest show on earth.
I never go around saying I don't believe in Zeus, Aphrodite or Apollo. I don't want them getting angry with me. 😅
Haha!
When I visited North Carolina there was an ice storm and the main message on the television consisted of which churches were open or closed.
America is not that religious
We are just using religion as an excuse to prop up SELFISH AMBITION
It's disgusting what religion has done to politics in the US. Our constitutional rights are under attacks by right wing zealots.
Excellent sharing of thoughts with Ian McEwan
The views of Buddhism never seem to arise. While having its own baggage, it is yet voluntary and not confrontational.
And God is just another attachment.
@HansOster-d2y Yes. Not easy. But at least not delusional or guilty of shifting blame away from us.
Ian McEwan says that we must not be cruel to others so that they are not cruel to us. There is a substantial difference here with Christianity, which says that we must love our neighbors. Then he acknowledges that "it was a remarkable step to build a religion around the idea of love", but adds that it is not necessary for a God to ordain our moral priorities, because we can do that perfectly well. “Our laws are secular above all,” he says, perhaps forgetting that secular laws can also be a historical evolution of religious norms. Dawkins then retorts that religion used "an original morality that was instinctively there", giving as an (extremely optimistic) example "this utter inability to be happy when another creature is suffering, which we all have." Faced with Dawkins' Darwinian certainties, Ian McEwan seems more skeptical to me. He always prefers the "free inquiring spirit." Finally, both say they hate the terms atheism and atheist, as they sound negative. Finally, both say they hate the terms atheism and atheist, as they sound negative. But Ian again departs from Dawkins by rejecting replacing the term atheist with "bright" because this insinuates that believers are dim.
Religion is so important for those who commit violence, crimes under the name of it:. Priests, politicians, church leaders, youth educators, mostly fathers, you name it.
Thank-you, I enjoyed this very much!
People choose what to believe not what is true.
Nope, they choose to believe what they knew were lies. This is more accurately described as being intellectually dishonest with one’s self. They were not convinced period. They knew better.
They think they are doing both!
@@Anything-q1i , How about coming up with an argument without ascribing to others your suppositions of their intentions?
@Silver tongued brilliance, nicely put. I thought about it, No.
America - Big on religion - Very small on christianity
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." - First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution
Almost 250 years ago these words were lain down by the founders. How revolutionary these ideas must have seemed for the time, yet how critical they are to a system of justice and liberty. Let us never forget them.
AND:" If you Love the 1st Amendment, you'll need the 2nd Amendment" David Mamet
Some Christians argue that actually the First Amendment wasn't so much about separating Church and State as preventing conflicts between different sects and denominations, that every congressman believed in the Christian God, they just didn't want more European style wars of religion
Yet we no longer LIVE them. As usual...we Americans just love to quote them...and look good! Watch and listen to our politics today!!!
Not exactly true as you stated it. That was the story we Americans painted up about our History to look good! Those that actually still believe that are not yet awoken!!! USA
Would be interesting to here similar discussion with David Brooks of NYT or UK similar - how do they cope with these challenges to their faith/conversion etc;
Loved this chat, fascinating stuff, thanks chaps, I know it is an old video but it is so refreshing to have a discussion and not a shouting match in todays political landscape
Thank you, i enjoyed the discussion, thank you.
We don't need to put a positive spin on atheism in the UK, as you tend to assume that everyone already is as non-religious yourself until you get some indication otherwise. Even then nobody makes a big deal about it. Secularity is progressing very nicely without the kind of conflict so evident in the USA.
How about sticking with the negativity in the US and calling atheists simply non-delusional?
Enjoyed listening insightful 🙏🏾
I now find it very offensive when the word truth is used by religion of any kind.
Jesus said 'I am the way the truth and the life'. Sorry that this offends you.
@WPFinlay Hi, your quoting John 14:6.... do you believe the bible? For if you do you should like Galatians 1:8-9 & 1:13 in which Paul used his position in scripture writing to stop other followers of Jesus writing or preaching any scripture Paul was not preaching. After Jesus real original Appostles of which Paul was not one of, publically called a liar and stop Paul from using the title Apostle on himself, (2 Timothy 1:15). Which is why the Gospels are said to be attributed to not written by, and if you check the dates attributed to them its after their deaths...
Don't mistake what I'm telling you as just some rant from a person against religion, my comments have been fact checked and I would encourage you to also fact check anything you hear about religion....as I often say religion needs the hell fact checked out if it.
It’s a great question and I lived nearly all of my adult outside of America (tho I am American) out of a revulsion for organized religion .
It might be a good idea to not keep referring to life as a "gift" .
It suggests a giver.
So true…👍🏽
Survival of the fittest made us. Survival of the richest will ruin us.
Triumph of the richest is going to ruin us . They have won .
Yes, I found that annoying. Sneaking in suggestive words.
Right. Same with the phrase "finely tuned". There is an implication. Notice it is usually preceded by "appears to be...".
Interesting the comment on athiesm and spirituality. As part of a committee organising a conference on Ethics, Economics and Environment down here in Aoteoro/NZ many years ago I became friends with a Catholic nun. She was well aware of my aithiesm, we had many deep discussions on religion, and one day she deeply shocked me by saying that I was a very spiritual person! Initially I took it badly but when I thought of my connection to nature and my concern for social justice etc I realised that it was possible to be spiritual without being relgious and believing in sky fathers etc. Indeed organised religion recognised that and harnesed it exert power over others.
They pray to the temples of money, to the high priests of expense accounts.
Seems odd that there wasn’t a second camera to show Richard’s face occasionally. Fascinating discussion though.
Get rid of superstition!
To rid the world of superstition you first need to remove the root cause, fear. Too bad fear isnt going anywhere anytime soon.
Ok ……………………but how?
@@wilyinfidel1091 while there is death religion will flourish
From superstition to superposition...
@@Pmrace1960 I agree. I have horses and the other day I said to my much loved 28 year old stallion - we are growing old together - I'm 72. Trouble is, I'm aware of it - and he's still frolicking about every now and then - blissfully unaware that time's running out - whereas we humans are having to deal with managing our old age - and we understand we are on the downhill run - so rather than accept it peacefully many choose to believe they are heading off to heaven. Your comment was wise.
What’s with the interruptions and then not even editing them out?
I will listen to this interview in a few minutes, to get the thoughts of these gentlemen... but I believe the answer to the question is very easy: A seriously deteriorating public school system, caused by budgetary restraints as well as political and religious interference. Let's see if these two gentlemen agree with me :)
agree. the next generation of americans need education, not indoctrination
Than you.🎶🌸
Because it is profitable
So, that's where the word "Profit" came from!
@piconano LoL, that is very clever.. I enjoyed your wit.. 👍
This, exactly. Religion was created to control the masses with fear, which led to great wealth.
Mcewan is a monster talent. I admire him immensely
The short answer is America was largely founded by a band of religious zealots who ended up being thrown out of Europe because the normal people there could no longer stand them⚛❤
Founded, no. Partially populated by England’s tossed out religious zealots, but certainly not founded by.
@ ⚛️❤️
Escaped Europe for religious freedom of not confirming to state religion of the time.
Escaped for "freedom" and then became 50x more religious than the UK is.
Yes. Spot on. The Mayflower etc al, wanted a single religion with their interests and wants excluding all else.
What a profoundly logical and rational discussion
What year might this discussion have taken place? Thank you~~
It was originally uploaded 15 years ago. I think It took place around that time.
They talked about Bush being president. He was president between 2001 and 2009, so yes, about 15 yrs ago or a little more...
I am a new subscriber to this channel but a long time fan of Richard. I think one contemporary view that explains the perseverance of religion in the face of so much evidence to the contrary can be sourced from Yuval Harari. In his writings, he eloquently explains how our grand fictional stories such as religion, or especially religion, unite us and allow us to form large functional groups that have accomplished much. Perhaps atheism should focus on replacing these fictions with factual stories that can unite us in a similar fashion. I expect this would be a multigenerational task!
Interesting to hear at the end it was during the Bush admin? How well will it age after another 4 years now?
Thoughtful conversation, firm beliefs buy tolerant.
What about "Realist" ?
Naturalist: Naturalism is the acceptance that nothing exists beyond the natural world, or universe. Instead of using supernatural or spiritual explanations, naturalism focuses on explanations that come from the laws of nature; scientific evidence.
Good point
Finke and Starke wrote the book The churching of America" in 2005. The pilgrims were very clear about their mission
Evangelicals for Trump demonstrate how shallow and perverse religion can be.
Can be?
Trump knows the tounge speakers are nutters.. we know he will do anything to get the votes
When has he ever gone to a evangelical church meeting ? ...it won't happen ..
❤👍🏼From Kerala
"...that's very odd in a country that has a Constitution and whose Founding Fathers staked out a world quite distinct for the religious absolutism of old Europe. Odd how religion has come in through a kind of back door..."
"...a totally secular foundation..."
These references to the mythology of the United States obscure the reality that by the time of the Revolution, the colonies were a well-established highly stratified European-style society with a national economy based on chattel slavery and the export of raw materials. The colonies were founded to be exploited, just like any European colonization efforts. The colonies were also founding in part by people fleeing their OWN religious persecution, but with little regard to the idea of tolerating other religions within their own communities (and further if they could enforce it). Exploitation and religious intolerance were the founding values of the colonies, and well in place by the time of the revolution!
The history of the United States is one of a never-ending conflict between what the Unites States IS, and what the Unites States PURPORTS itself to be in the ideals and principle propounded by the "Founding Fathers," with the so-called "conservatives" the inheritors of the exploitation/intolerance values and their ardent defenders against every subsequent movement to expand the IDEAL of the Unites States to people other than white men with property - no inch of that ground has ever been given in the history of this nation without a struggle.
The Unites States is not a religious county - it's a nation of shameless hypocrites. A Christian's so-called "deeply held beliefs" apply ONLY as long as they don't interfere with their lifestyle and prejudices. Even the liberal Christians have to cherry-pick the Bible, science and history just as much (if not more) as the evangelicals they criticize, because the whole lot are just different versions of the same hypocrisy and belief in the patently ridiculous.
Isn't that what every country and religion does? We're right/you're wrong?
Well said!!! I tip my hat to you...and TOTALLY agree! USA. 😮. Namaste!
The US Constitution specifically forbids a religious test for public office, "There shall be no religious test."
Most Americans don't know much about their constitution.
I don’t know one indigenous British person who is religious now the pre war generation has died off. It’s just not a thing here
I find the same here in New Zealand. No-one I know seems to have any religion, or at least they certainly don't feel any need to proselytise to anyone else. I strongly believe it's the former. We're a very secular society. An interesting point of contrast with the US would be that I can't remember a single NZ politician mentioning god or religion, other than a single right wing, nut job Christofascist party and the ill-fated Christian Heritage Party of a couple of decades back, whose leader spent a couple of years inside for child rape.
Same here In Ireland, churches are empty and the world hasn’t fallen apart.
I live near a Yorkshire village church and see the dwindling flock arriving each Sunday. They are split into three groups:-
Young couples who need to attend a minimum number of times in order to qualify for a Church Wedding.
The very old.
The very strange.
Soon as the old die and other romantic wedding venues open, only the strange will be left.
Thank you so much. I've felt uncomfortable for years with being defined as a-theist, to be defined against something that, for me, simply doesn't arise. And I consider myself to be spiritual but I feel absolutely no need to have a God.
I don't care about religions untill they interrupt me or rule over humans, religions should and must be only personal and in your private space,... Science and wisdom are my priority
I Have read a couple of Ian's books and they were both superb.
“Enlightened” or “Rationalist” better than “Bright”
I am an American 'atheist' and am always surrounded by religious people, and it is uncomfortable for me to be around self righteous Christians who wear their religion on their sleeve, who think I am a delusional fool, that I am lost in a world without a moral compass. We in the US are getting more religious it seems. Apparently, in most of rural America Mr Trump is God's choice. Sad, nauseating.
One of Richard's interviews that's thoroughly enjoyable to watch. I'm with Ian that the branding of atheists and secularists as 'Brights' always felt a bit naff. I'm glad it has seemingly evolved into extinction.
'A sense of its wonders' says McEwan about the world. Indeed! This morning I get up to see the landscape around me here on the Isle of Arran glowing in the light of the rising sun - mountains, trees, autumnal bracken, even the sea beyond - everything. I could not but thank the Creator for such a Gift. Such beauty that seems to serve no purpose - unless the Cosmos itself has a purpose. Atheists should not be afraid to explore ALL avenues of thought and human experience. They might just be depriving their followers of a richness that can only shine in its fullness when the Source of it all is allowed to come into the picture.
Beauty =god now that is rather purile
'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,-that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know'.The words of John Keats (leading English poet, but you might say that he too was 'rather purile' - 'puerile' of course is the spelling! I don't think Keats could be called childish - which is the meaning of puerile - too easily). I notice how the people on this site have their minds well made up with very little sign of any being willing to explore beyond a fairly dated negative position in relation to Christianity.
My parents called themselves humanists.
I'm not an atheist - I'm a "super uncarer"! Thank you, Ian McEwan 💌