I have no earthly idea which is which. I mean, I can tell the difference between A and B. One of them sounds like it has a filter on it compared to the other. But as to which one is the authentic version? No idea.
It is very cool that a SID replacement exists of this quality. I’m definitely going to check it out. As you say, they’re not making them anymore. MOS has been gone for a long time now.
A is the original, because he said so and also he wouldn’t pull it, record, then swap it, record, then swap it again to give away the 8580. Confused? The 8580 has a crisp sound and the ARMSID sounds more like the 6581 with whatever filter is built into it.
Firmware my ARM2SID was initially flashed with was too crisp in a certain scenario so I could easily tell it apart from a large number of MOS SIDs ... that has been patched since almost a year tho.
SID A hits my sweet spot. I've heard these songs so many times and that sound, crashy, a bit sharp and harsh even at times, really takes me back. SID B sounds muffled, generated. It comes close, but it lacks the sharp edges. Like it's been filtered. So my vote goes to SID A definitely. And if that is the ARMSID, I'm buying one on the 13th!
I second Buford's suggestion. The Turbo Outrun intro on my Australian C64C 8580 always sounded muffled. Jeroen's voice sample was much clearer through a 6581.
As a sound engineer I clearly hear the difference. A is more clear and defined, B is little muffed and less presence. However, I can't say which one is real. I gonna guess - B is real, A is ARM. Cheers
I can't say which one I think is genuine, but I can say which one I prefer the sound of. B. Definitely B. A sounded hollow and shrill wheras B had far better bass extension and overall warmer tonality.
SID A sounds right to me. SID B has more bass, mumbled sound and something feels wrong with it. I don't need an original SID though. Give it to someone else.
I don't know which chip is real or fake, but the sound is much fuller on A. Let me know what chip A was at the end and I will be getting that for my Ultimate64!
@@rootlabs I have plans to review the Ultimate64 but the reality is that not everyone can afford one, and most people may just simply want to replace their dying/dead SID, so better or not it just may be out of the reach of some folk. I am looking forward to reviewing the U64 though, not going to lie :) :)
SID A I'd say is the ARMSID, but the difference is so small it is barely audible by someone that is not an expert. This is great to know, having a replacement that is so easy to manage is great. Glad got this recommended
Given a choice of a C64 with no sound output (due to dead SID) or any modern replacement, I'll take the latter. It's great to have options now that the real chips are scarce. I can't wait to see a modern VIC-II drop-in (hopefully with enhancements). No idea which is real, A or B even though I have the same revision SID in my C64.
I think that the ARMSID is the best replacement for the SID available and at some point I need to get one for my 83 Breadbin in which still works apart from not having any sound. Pity the competition prize isn't the original SID. I think SID B is the original.
It seems to me that there's a huge difference in their filters. I can hear a resonance change every time the chip flips. Especially notable on the snare.
You did sth wrong when recording, there's a "reverb" on both a and b on the Commando tune. For Crazy Comets, I'd say b is the real SID as I think I heard timing bugs.
@@TheRetroShack I'd even say the emulation isn't too bad if they thought of the SID-bug. If you ever do a SID-comparison again, please also use a tune not from the Stone age of SID-compositions. I suggest Jeroen Tel's masterpieces which do a lot with filtering.
I have an ARMsid because I had a machine with a bad SID and I didn't want to buy another one that could just go bad. I particularly like the ARMsid because if you prefer one variant over the other, you can change which variant you emulate through the settings app. I have a breadbin with a real 6581 and a longboard 64C which is where the ARMsid is. I really wanted my 64c to have the 8580 sound, but on a longboard I obviously can't do that with a real one, so the ARMsid is great because it allows me to have the sound I want with the motherboard that I have.
Yep - that's a good solid argument for flexibility over being a stalwart over which version is best. If you can enjoy both sounds, great - if not, just enjoy the one you have :). It's all amazing really!
SID A is the original SID. You can tell SID B is the ARMSID because the 'snare' drum on Crazy Comets sounds different, i.e. the filter is cutting the high frequencies. I've noticed it on a few tunes since the v2.11 firmware update, it used to sound spot on. I'm not complaining though as this update fixed a major issue with playing back 8-bit samples. ARMSID is superb otherwise.
"B" is the original, I would say. However, I haven't been listening to the original sound of SID as I was used to from my old CRT TV (mixed with some video amplifier leakage artifacts) since 1992. But I would prefer some different music style for the second example - like Wizball instead of Crazy Comets.
Great job on the presentation of the ARMSID along with a little spattering of SID history. Great to know that if ever my SID goes west there's a good replacement that can handle the analogue side of things too ;)
B almost sounds like it's running through Dolby noise reduction. Less high frequency, a little lower volume, a bit of a 'muddy' sound. That SID could have a different filter cutoff setting.
SID B, SID A sounds exactly like my early 80's Breadbin, and C64C's with the 8580 have always sounded muddier, so SID B is the original, SID A sounds awesome though!
...I think SID B is the authentic one, because it has a little bit of excess filtering, and somebody developing a chip for retro audiophiles would make the default filtering as nonexistent as possible. So... Which other chips can you upgrade? I'd love to see something like a swap from DRAM to SRAM and some performance comparisons... Particularly with C64 demos.
Sorry, you were incorrect this time round - think of it as coming in second :) Also, you can replace the PLA chip and some clever so-and-so is working on a replacement VIC-II :)
I'd say that B is the original SID chip. There are pretty obvious differences when hearing both like this but both sound very good and had I only heard the Armsid and not have been told beforehand I doubt I would question whether it was a chip from MOS or not. :)
Bit late to the party but I'm a huge SID geek, so here's my 2c: I have been playing with the ARMSID for a couple of months now and I agree that it sounds so close to the 8580 that I'd fail the blindfold test 9 times out of 10. On the other hand, when it comes to the more unpredictable 6510, I think I can mostly tell the difference on those tracks that utilize funky filter distortions and other quirks.
SID A (guess but there is a subtle difference). Without listening to Donkey Kong and having an 8-bit dance party Adrian Black style it's difficult to be certain 😏🤷♂️
Wow, I can tell there is a difference between the two but they both sound good, thats an amazing piece of emulation. Chip A sounds clearer than B, which sounds slightly muffled. If I had to guess I would say A is the ArmSID as its new and improved but I really would be guessing.
SID B is the authentic one. the two clearly sound different, however - they are staggeringly close! I guess I wont bother hunting down a SID for my one C64 with a dead SID! ARMSID, here I come!
I've made a detailed comparison article some time ago where I compare selected songs that I consider critical. Recorded directly from the 6581, 8580 and ARMSID in both modes. I can't put the link here, so please pm me. However, it's been compared with ARMSID firmware version 2.8, which seems to be outdated now.
Sid B is the original one in both Commando and Crazy Comets. It would be more evident if the compaired Sids were 6581’s - which have more ‘analog warmth’ ( a combination of filters and envelopes). I use a C64 with FPGASid to compose some tracks and I am happy with the results. For gaming, ARM2SID or other replacement chips are all good - unless you are a purist.
I'm with you. The ARMSID runs at a lower voltage, has modern updates, and sounds amazing and can be either chip! I ordered one to compare with our SwinSID (came with our C64C) and 8580 we have coming.
SID B - A sounds brighter, crisper, and has less floor . A has more headroom, which may stem from the superior ADC inside the ARM with it's 12bit resolution. In the 80ties, the technology wasn't that advanced. So I go for B as the original, but ARMSID does a good job. Would be nice to hear something, that really lets the filters crunch.
Great Video! I just learned of your channel today. I just made a video changing out my broken C64C Sid chip with the Armsid today. I was very impressed with the Armsid. I would of guessed that A was Armsid. I was wrong but it was so close. Look forward to your future videos!
I think it's SID B, but only guessing because it seems the filters are more crude on B. Otherwise, both, despite the echo, sounds like perfectly fine SID chips to me.
I'm late to the game, so obviously a winner has already been selected and answer revealed somewhere. But since I am not as yet privy to that information, I'm going to guess that "A" is the ArmSID and "B" is the 8580. On the basis that the ArmSID has been reported elsewhere to be "too good" and sounds more like the 8580 than the 6581, for those purists of us who detested the short boards and their 8580's, and preferred the 6581AR as the pinnacle of SID development both sound too "clean".
SID A. I have an ARMSID installed in my breadbin Commodore 64. It sounds more cleaner than SID B. SID A is the ARMSID and SID B is an 8580 SID. I can hear differences. On SID B, it sounds a little muffled, due to how the filters were implemented. On SID A, it’s more clearer and better defined which is why I chose SID A.
It's not a condition for entry. I've made that clear in the pinned comment below the video and also in the description, which I've also updated to include Competition Rules and Privacy Statements, along with links to the Community Guidelines and Terms of Service. Apologies for any confusion - this is the first time running a competition on the channel. Bit of a minefield, so thanks for pointing this out!
There is a SID A (the ARMSID) error in the background at (9:02) in the lower voice on the short (music) bit. I can not explain it clearly but it is exactly at 9:02. Software update needed?:)
earthly idea which is which. I mean, I can tell the difference between A and B. One of them sounds like it has a filter on it compared to the other. But as to which one is the authentic version? Yes idea!
I have an ARMSid as well and I'm very happy with it except for one tiny thing, and that's the noise waveform doesn't sound right. It sounds like it's a pitch or two too low which can clearly be heard on the "snares" in these music tracks. I hope there will be an update soon that fixes that, because that's my only gripe with it. I compared my ARMSid to a 6581 R4AR which I have in my C64. So based on my personal experience with the ARMSid, my guess is SID A is the original 8580 sid in this quiz. But since I don't have a C64C I would have no use of a 8580 if the stars and planets would align correctly and I should somehow win so it would be better to give it a home where it will be used and loved.
A is brighter than B and more clearly defined, but it sounds more like an emulation on higher quality D/A conversion than the 12 bit original. I think B is the 8580 and A is the armsid.
SID B is the original one to me, the slight muffle is how I remember it. The new one sounds almost identical though, I am genuinely impressed. Oh, and you gained a new sub!
This is cool. They must've improved the firmware quite a lot because when I heard it originally it was quite good but (to my ears) not that near a real chip. Really I'm stoked to hear that we may finally have a good enough modern replacement, for that most important of chips.. That's amazing news! My guess, although both sound slightly off (intentionally? I'm assuming those are 6581 tunes), is that SID A is the real one, and B is the ARMSID. The bass on chip B feels too deep and it's slightly muddy overall. Don't need a chip though so if I win feel free to give it to someone who needs it. :) Fun video, keep it up mate! This channel is going to grow and grow.. :)
SID A : Heard something funky going on with the B side on crazy comets, just for sanity checking i also got out my trusty late spec 64C for a quick listen and yup, snares don't sound right and since in my experience 8580's have solid consistency in audio i'm 90% positive B is the armSID ;)
Plug and Play? This is not what Plug and Play means. Direct replacement, drop-in. Plug and Play meant IRQ, DMA and Memory address had to be specified and you could only change this by directly swapping jumpers on the hardware.
What started as a fun and simple A/B choice triggers an existential crisis... (& I know I'm too late for the competition.) A is crisper and cleaner, and to my ears sounds more like what I remember. Switching to B made me think 'umm.' But if I'd not just heard A to compare against, or if A went first, would I still have thought that? How reliable are my memories anyway? Also much of my listening (over and over again) to these classic tunes over the years came from SidPlay, or RUclips, or an Internet mp3 of unknown origin. Did these sound as they were meant to? Do I even remember the original at all? We know that different era C64's had slightly different SID chips. Do we all have slightly different reference points? I must admit I later did start comparing the clips in this video with other sources. At least it was at 50 Hz / PAL speeds. "High speed NTSC Commando" really jars with me, but I can understand the opposite may happen for others. Funny what gets ingrained in long term memory. "Is ARMSID as good as a Real SID" - it might even be better than the real thing depending on what the answer was. Looking forward to the grand reveal.... Good video - thanks.
SID B to my ears. B sounds slightly more "analogue" and warmer, with less crispness that I would imagine you'd find with a modern day emulated version. But it is very close indeed!
SID B. It sounds a bit more analogue to me and the bass is a bit more 'muddy'. I'd think the ARM emulation would sound the brightest of the two. In any case now I know what to buy for my broken C64 as they are very close. Thanks for the video!
SID B - I'd be interested to know how they were recorded as both sound like they have been recorded in a bathroom, a little bit too much reverb/echo . Did you apply any post FX? I noticed it in the early 'demo' but thought it was a clever part of the sid tune. Anyway, I thought sid B was more accurate to my memory of the tunes. (even though my memory is of 6581 and not 8580)
Lol - nope, not in a bathroom :) All audio (and video) was taken straight from the C64>RGB OUT>SCART>HDMI>OBS Studio, no filtering or FX added at all :)
I don't have a C64 so have no idea which is the real and which is the replacement, but I just want to say how awesome it is that people are still making replacement parts and upgrades for these much loved computers :)
These tunes has only minimal use of sid filters. Why was not used some modern tunes, full of sid effects, for ex. frome some scene demo? When i compared output in 1541UII, which emulate SID on FPGA, Commando was also very good - vs 8580 in computer. But any heavy filtered and sophisticated music, from Crest or Oxyron - emulated SID was very bad (sometimes VERY bad). So how ARMSID? Can C64 musician trust it? Or still must buy original overpriced SID?
SID B is my guess - a filter-heavy demo (e.g. "Edge of Disgrace by Booze Design") should better showcase the difference - a digital filter is always just an approximation - my guess is the original SID prices will continue to rise :). Best regards from Peter/Hawkeye from MIDIbox :).
For those of you in the UK. Dont forget that you need to import the Chip from the EU - now after Brexit. Best would be to try a local online store to import them in larger quantities and offer them in the UK domestically. That will still be more expensive but you save a lot of those excessive shipping costs caused by the new customs procedures.
A sounds a tiny bit better to me on these two amazing Sid tunes. One complicaton though - Commando and Crazy comets where pretty early games both released in 1985 so they were composed on the 6581 SID, 8580 didn't come out till 1988. I hear some demo tunes can sound quite wrong with artifacts if played on the wrong SID model, so this is a complicated of test of whether the ArmSID or 8580 play 6581 composed tunes better. Hopefuly Armsid has a 6581 mode also.
Indeed it does :) And the fact that these songs were composed for a 6851 and we're playing them here on an ARMSID and an 8580 kind of proves the point that it doesn't really matter if you ONLY have one c64 - it will be different anyway, so an ARMSID would be good enough :) :) :)
@@TheRetroShack It does kinda prove a point :) but leaves it open for an interesting round 2 if we can find amazing sid tunes composed on 8580 to compare. Not easy - I'm not even sure if Armalyte was tuned for 8580 but it sounded staggering on my 8580 fitted C128 :) The 1995 Scene Demo "Mathematica by Reflex" was reportedly tuned for 8580, it has a incredible soundtrack worth a listen and look ;)
SID B. A sounds nicer, but I think B is the original analog sound. Wonderful that there are replacements for the SID that are so nice sounding, with a lot of care put into them.
SID B would to me represent a real SID mainly because of the lag effect of it in Rob Hubbards Commando tune, only times the dragged out lag effect isnt there is usually in emulation
Sorry, but comparing it to a 8580 is pointless. The 8580s all sound alike and have been well emulated in software for years. But it would be a great comparison if you'd acquire 5x 6581 that sound perceivably different in a number of aspects. The question you'd have to come up with would be, does the 6581 emulation of the ARMSID still fit into the scope of 6581 sound, or are there deviations that are 6581 un-typical. (?)
Thanks for watching although the point I'm making here is not that the ARMSID sounds *just* like any other version - it's more that even if it doesn't sound *exactly* like ANY other SID - does that really even matter if it's so close as to make no odds to most people? There's a link in the description of someone who's done amazing analysis on the different SID versions - it's well worth a read.
@@TheRetroShack To find this out, you need to compare it to the 6581. It's not a matter of sounding slightly off; the 6581 do in some aspects sound wildly different from "the" 8580 and even differ from each other. So, the 8580 is, for quite a few older tunes, simply the wrong SID. This is not about HiFi voodo, it's about notes and sounds getting muted, muffled or exaggerated to an extent that you have a different tune when played on a 8580. You can get an impression of that if you listen into different tunes on the Oakvalley collection on different SIDs. www.6581-8580.com Just take the Lightforce music or the Giana Sisters title tune and compare the recordings of 8580 and some of the the 6581s (yes, all 7 minutes of Lightforce). You will see (hear?) that the 6581 cuts off notes and does "wah wah" effects where the 8580 just happily sings into the room. Thus, you can't replace a 6581 with an 8580 and vice versa, you can't replace any 6581 with any other 6581, and after watching your video, we still don't know if we can replace any 6581 with an ARMSID at all! :-)
there is definately a difference between them cant tell you what one is what but b sounds a bit smoother and to me better . ill go with A as beeing the original chip . i would have no use for the chip though would love too know what one is what .
Playing Gridrunner & Impossible Mission there are some sounds that I noticed a difference between the ArmSID and the 6581,8580,Nano SwinSID, UltiSID and VICE but so long as things work it is fine with me.
I've always wished someone would finally create a new (real) SID without emulation, but it's extremely difficult and expensive to find a manufacturer who can still build analog chips. The SID has a digital controller but a large part of the circuit was analog. One way to build a new SID today would be a separate board with discrete components, fully recreating the analog circuit of the SID the way a traditional analog synth would be built. But it would actually be a pretty big project to build a board with the analog path for even 1 channel reproducing all of the SID's features.
Hey, there are a lot of clever people out there, so maybe one day! Fingers crossed, eh? - Although not sure there's the appetite for it given the quality of these replacement SIDS that are coming through these days.
Yep, you can change the emulation to sound like different SID revisions and also to change some of the parameters to fine tune the sound :) I didn’t do any of that - sounded perfect to me on the stock settings :)
I have no earthly idea which is which. I mean, I can tell the difference between A and B. One of them sounds like it has a filter on it compared to the other. But as to which one is the authentic version? No idea.
All will be revealed on the 13th :) Thanks for watching David - been a fan for many years. Hope things are getting back to normal for you back home!
Now I know why RUclips recommended me this video, it's because the8bitguy commented :)
one seems slightly softer and has punchier bass...no idea which is which either.
Looking forward to more 8-bit guy videos .. how is the disaster-recovery progressing ?
Man, celebrity appearance from The 8-bit guy!
Looks like all of us win!
Its not a true test of the ARMSID because you didn't have an 8-bit Dance Party.
You don't know what I did off camera! I was head-to-toe dripping in neon and raving like a lunatic! :)
When Adrian hears a proper SID track... if not Donkey Kong :-)
@@TheRetroShack Play Donkey Kong for us!
@@TheRetroShack Play Donkey Kong for us!
How it sounds to me: SID A = Dolby OFF, SID B = Dolby ON
Wow! That sums t up really well!
That's a great way of describing it.
All will be revealed weekend of the 13th March! :)
yep
It is very cool that a SID replacement exists of this quality. I’m definitely going to check it out. As you say, they’re not making them anymore. MOS has been gone for a long time now.
I love that there are such CLEVER people out there :) !!!
The ArmSid is not made any more??
I’m going with SID B as the original. SID A sounds a little “too” clean, perhaps with a higher S/N ratio which I think would imply it’s the ArmSID.
Thanks for voting - All will be revealed weekend of the 13th March! Good Luck!
A is the original, because he said so and also he wouldn’t pull it, record, then swap it, record, then swap it again to give away the 8580.
Confused? The 8580 has a crisp sound and the ARMSID sounds more like the 6581 with whatever filter is built into it.
Commando,
SID A straight away brings me to the game so Original
SID B sounds muffled not the way I remember the tune so ARMSID
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When your sound chip has more computing power than the rest of the computer...
I know! It's hilarious right! I was thinking the same thing when I put the Raspberry PI 'CO-PROCESSOR' in the BBC Micro :) :)
Kinda like the SNES, actually.
Not unusual at all in C64 peripherals. Even its original disk drive had more computing power than the computer.
I want to say SID B is the real sid and A is the armsid just from the frequency responses.
Thanks for voting - All will be revealed weekend of the 13th March! Good Luck!
Based on your comment about the A/D converters, I'm guess SID A is the replacement as it sounds a bit clearer. They are pretty close though.
Thanks for voting - All will be revealed weekend of the 13th March! Good Luck!
SID A
Edit: it's close, but SID A just sounds a bit crisper to me.
Firmware my ARM2SID was initially flashed with was too crisp in a certain scenario so I could easily tell it apart from a large number of MOS SIDs ... that has been patched since almost a year tho.
Thanks for voting - All will be revealed weekend of the 13th March! Good Luck!
SID A hits my sweet spot. I've heard these songs so many times and that sound, crashy, a bit sharp and harsh even at times, really takes me back. SID B sounds muffled, generated. It comes close, but it lacks the sharp edges. Like it's been filtered. So my vote goes to SID A definitely. And if that is the ARMSID, I'm buying one on the 13th!
Thanks for voting - All will be revealed weekend of the 13th March! Good Luck!
totally agree
SID A is the ARMSID , a lot sharper sounds, a bit too sharp
Thanks for voting - All will be revealed weekend of the 13th March! Good Luck!
I love how there is a thriving community for these classic, yet extremely important part of computing history...
Always amazes me what people manage to create - I feel lucky to be able to test them out!
I'd suggest you test this with the Turbo Outrun intro, as it has lots of digitised samples. It could help setting the digifix properly.
Will do - thanks for the tip!
I second Buford's suggestion. The Turbo Outrun intro on my Australian C64C 8580 always sounded muffled. Jeroen's voice sample was much clearer through a 6581.
@@damonsach3347 yep, turbo outrun digitised sound has lower volume.
Antiriad song or *Aztec Challenge for that rolling bass line!*
Hit it -- O-O-Outrun! Probably my favorite SID tune....
As a sound engineer I clearly hear the difference. A is more clear and defined, B is little muffed and less presence. However, I can't say which one is real. I gonna guess - B is real, A is ARM. Cheers
Sorry, you were incorrect this time round - think of it as coming in second :)
@@TheRetroShack Wow! So emulation sounds worse than original.
I can't say which one I think is genuine, but I can say which one I prefer the sound of. B. Definitely B.
A sounded hollow and shrill wheras B had far better bass extension and overall warmer tonality.
All will be revealed weekend of the 13th March! :)
COMPETITION AND COMMENTS NOW CLOSED - Thanks for entering! Look out for the winner reveal over the weekend!
The sid audio in this video sounds wrong to me, like there is some kind of delay processing happening on it?
SID A sounds right to me. SID B has more bass, mumbled sound and something feels wrong with it. I don't need an original SID though. Give it to someone else.
Thanks - very noble of you! We've got a nice group of peeps on this channel :)
I don't know which chip is real or fake, but the sound is much fuller on A. Let me know what chip A was at the end and I will be getting that for my Ultimate64!
Will do - there'll be a full announcement on the 13th on the Community Tab along with behind the scenes evidence :)
The FPGA SID in the Ultimate64 is more accurate than the ARM SID so I wouldn’t bother. Perhaps the channel author can do a comparison
@@rootlabs I have plans to review the Ultimate64 but the reality is that not everyone can afford one, and most people may just simply want to replace their dying/dead SID, so better or not it just may be out of the reach of some folk. I am looking forward to reviewing the U64 though, not going to lie :) :)
SID A I'd say is the ARMSID, but the difference is so small it is barely audible by someone that is not an expert. This is great to know, having a replacement that is so easy to manage is great. Glad got this recommended
Thanks for voting - All will be revealed weekend of the 13th March! Good Luck!
Given a choice of a C64 with no sound output (due to dead SID) or any modern replacement, I'll take the latter.
It's great to have options now that the real chips are scarce.
I can't wait to see a modern VIC-II drop-in (hopefully with enhancements).
No idea which is real, A or B even though I have the same revision SID in my C64.
Your wishes may well be answered soon - keep an eye on this guy: ruclips.net/channel/UCx2-Yj0WsM-T88y09ywPjMw
Yes. I have been watching...
Brilliant!
A sounds brighter, and B a bit muted in lower frequencies... but couldn't tell you which is which.
A was the real Sid :)
I think that the ARMSID is the best replacement for the SID available and at some point I need to get one for my 83 Breadbin in which still works apart from not having any sound. Pity the competition prize isn't the original SID. I think SID B is the original.
Thanks for voting - All will be revealed weekend of the 13th March! Good Luck!
It seems to me that there's a huge difference in their filters. I can hear a resonance change every time the chip flips. Especially notable on the snare.
You've got better hearing than me :) Personally can't tell the difference :) :)
You did sth wrong when recording, there's a "reverb" on both a and b on the Commando tune. For Crazy Comets, I'd say b is the real SID as I think I heard timing bugs.
Sorry, you were incorrect this time round - think of it as coming in second :)
@@TheRetroShack I'd even say the emulation isn't too bad if they thought of the SID-bug. If you ever do a SID-comparison again, please also use a tune not from the Stone age of SID-compositions. I suggest Jeroen Tel's masterpieces which do a lot with filtering.
Sid B
B is a slightly muddier sound. Sounds deeper, but at the expense of a little bit of clarity. A is sharper, less bass but notably clearer.
Thanks for voting - All will be revealed weekend of the 13th March! Good Luck!
The 2 Sid tunes you chose was made for / on the 6581. I heard the Exploding Fist SFX don't sound so good on a 8580.
That's why I chose them :) They're both 'off' so does it matter how 'off' they are ;)
@@TheRetroShack Can you not set the Armsid to be a 6581 in a C64-C ? like the FPGASID.
@@Rick_Todd Yep - you can emulate any SID in any machine :)
@@TheRetroShack Cool , Thank You
I have an ARMsid because I had a machine with a bad SID and I didn't want to buy another one that could just go bad. I particularly like the ARMsid because if you prefer one variant over the other, you can change which variant you emulate through the settings app. I have a breadbin with a real 6581 and a longboard 64C which is where the ARMsid is. I really wanted my 64c to have the 8580 sound, but on a longboard I obviously can't do that with a real one, so the ARMsid is great because it allows me to have the sound I want with the motherboard that I have.
Yep - that's a good solid argument for flexibility over being a stalwart over which version is best. If you can enjoy both sounds, great - if not, just enjoy the one you have :). It's all amazing really!
Everyone would be stunned when the outcome would be:
A = SwinSID
B = ARMSID
Haha - Nope - absolutely, definitely one of them is an original 8580R5 :)
SID A is the original SID.
You can tell SID B is the ARMSID because the 'snare' drum on Crazy Comets sounds different, i.e. the filter is cutting the high frequencies. I've noticed it on a few tunes since the v2.11 firmware update, it used to sound spot on. I'm not complaining though as this update fixed a major issue with playing back 8-bit samples. ARMSID is superb otherwise.
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"B" is the original, I would say. However, I haven't been listening to the original sound of SID as I was used to from my old CRT TV (mixed with some video amplifier leakage artifacts) since 1992.
But I would prefer some different music style for the second example - like Wizball instead of Crazy Comets.
Sorry, you were incorrect this time round - think of it as coming in second :)
Great job on the presentation of the ARMSID along with a little spattering of SID history. Great to know that if ever my SID goes west there's a good replacement that can handle the analogue side of things too ;)
Thanks very much - and yes, couple of days 'SID-less' and haven't really noticed any noticeable difference :)
SID B is the original SID, with all its delightful flaws and less clean sound.
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B almost sounds like it's running through Dolby noise reduction. Less high frequency, a little lower volume, a bit of a 'muddy' sound. That SID could have a different filter cutoff setting.
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SID B, SID A sounds exactly like my early 80's Breadbin, and C64C's with the 8580 have always sounded muddier, so SID B is the original, SID A sounds awesome though!
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...I think SID B is the authentic one, because it has a little bit of excess filtering, and somebody developing a chip for retro audiophiles would make the default filtering as nonexistent as possible.
So... Which other chips can you upgrade? I'd love to see something like a swap from DRAM to SRAM and some performance comparisons... Particularly with C64 demos.
Sorry, you were incorrect this time round - think of it as coming in second :)
Also, you can replace the PLA chip and some clever so-and-so is working on a replacement VIC-II :)
@@TheRetroShack What's the PLA chip again?
How does it stack up to the FPGASID, we surely need a battle
I'll see if I can arrange something :)
I'd say that B is the original SID chip. There are pretty obvious differences when hearing both like this but both sound very good and had I only heard the Armsid and not have been told beforehand I doubt I would question whether it was a chip from MOS or not. :)
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SID B. Sounds a bit more muffled - like the 80's portable telly my C64 was connected to :)
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Bit late to the party but I'm a huge SID geek, so here's my 2c: I have been playing with the ARMSID for a couple of months now and I agree that it sounds so close to the 8580 that I'd fail the blindfold test 9 times out of 10. On the other hand, when it comes to the more unpredictable 6510, I think I can mostly tell the difference on those tracks that utilize funky filter distortions and other quirks.
You’re a better man than me Joe :) I can’t tell the difference 99.9% of the time, but that’s probably down to my hearing more than anything else :)
SID A (guess but there is a subtle difference). Without listening to Donkey Kong and having an 8-bit dance party Adrian Black style it's difficult to be certain 😏🤷♂️
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I don't know which is which, but A sounds better. It's brighter, crisper whilst still maintaining the depth.
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SID A. SID B sounds like it has more Bass tones.
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Wow, I can tell there is a difference between the two but they both sound good, thats an amazing piece of emulation. Chip A sounds clearer than B, which sounds slightly muffled. If I had to guess I would say A is the ArmSID as its new and improved but I really would be guessing.
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SID B : Ive never heard a real SID so I've no idea - I've got 3 c64s and non of the SIDs work 🙂 but I'll be buying an armsid now I reckon!
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Sid B is my guess , I'm not totally sure but I've a hunch and it hits the right tones for me , great channel thanks for the videos !
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SID B is the authentic one. the two clearly sound different, however - they are staggeringly close! I guess I wont bother hunting down a SID for my one C64 with a dead SID! ARMSID, here I come!
Sorry, you were incorrect this time round - think of it as coming in second :)
I've made a detailed comparison article some time ago where I compare selected songs that I consider critical. Recorded directly from the 6581, 8580 and ARMSID in both modes. I can't put the link here, so please pm me. However, it's been compared with ARMSID firmware version 2.8, which seems to be outdated now.
Thanks for watching! I've been looking at a load of comparison videos recently and there are definitely 'levels of accuracy' shall we say? :) :)
SID B - SID A is too clean and not gritty enough!
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Sid B is the original one in both Commando and Crazy Comets. It would be more evident if the compaired Sids were 6581’s - which have more ‘analog warmth’ ( a combination of filters and envelopes). I use a C64 with FPGASid to compose some tracks and I am happy with the results. For gaming, ARM2SID or other replacement chips are all good - unless you are a purist.
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SID B is the real SID. The other one sounds “too” good, if you get my meaning. If I win, I’ll build a brand new C64 around it.
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I'm with you. The ARMSID runs at a lower voltage, has modern updates, and sounds amazing and can be either chip! I ordered one to compare with our SwinSID (came with our C64C) and 8580 we have coming.
SID A defo sounds brighter.
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SID B - A sounds brighter, crisper, and has less floor . A has more headroom, which may stem from the superior ADC inside the ARM with it's 12bit resolution. In the 80ties, the technology wasn't that advanced. So I go for B as the original, but ARMSID does a good job. Would be nice to hear something, that really lets the filters crunch.
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Sid A is the arm sid B the real one. (I like A more)
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Great Video! I just learned of your channel today. I just made a video changing out my broken C64C Sid chip with the Armsid today. I was very impressed with the Armsid. I would of guessed that A was Armsid. I was wrong but it was so close. Look forward to your future videos!
Thanks very much! And hope you enjoy your ArmSID :)
Nah, to me B sounds a lot... muddier than A. A is 'crisp'.
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I think it's SID B, but only guessing because it seems the filters are more crude on B.
Otherwise, both, despite the echo, sounds like perfectly fine SID chips to me.
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I'm late to the game, so obviously a winner has already been selected and answer revealed somewhere. But since I am not as yet privy to that information, I'm going to guess that "A" is the ArmSID and "B" is the 8580. On the basis that the ArmSID has been reported elsewhere to be "too good" and sounds more like the 8580 than the 6581, for those purists of us who detested the short boards and their 8580's, and preferred the 6581AR as the pinnacle of SID development both sound too "clean".
Glad you enjoyed the video - just FYI was the original 8580 :)
SID A is the ARMSID - crisper/cleaner sound. I have one and also will be keeping it installed, love how it sounds.
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SID A. I have an ARMSID installed in my breadbin Commodore 64. It sounds more cleaner than SID B. SID A is the ARMSID and SID B is an 8580 SID. I can hear differences. On SID B, it sounds a little muffled, due to how the filters were implemented. On SID A, it’s more clearer and better defined which is why I chose SID A.
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The answer to which is better is easy if you install the ARM2SID version.. in that case it's a huge upgrade from the original SID.
Think I might just get one of those to try :)
@@TheRetroShack Yeah if you wire it up for 3 SIDs and the configurable 1 SID + Yamaha FM. It's pretty fancy.
A seems brighter and cleaner plus slightly louder. B sounds more filtered. No idea which ones which, the armsid does its job really well.
6:54 Violation of RUclips policy. Soliciting subscriptions. Specifically as a condition for entry into a competition.
It's not a condition for entry. I've made that clear in the pinned comment below the video and also in the description, which I've also updated to include Competition Rules and Privacy Statements, along with links to the Community Guidelines and Terms of Service. Apologies for any confusion - this is the first time running a competition on the channel. Bit of a minefield, so thanks for pointing this out!
8:17 the commando credits list Computers UK LTD for "japan capsule", what's that? :D
That's a good spot! ...Sleuth mode ACTIVATED :)
@@TheRetroShack Hi both, Japan Capsule Computers, otherwise known as CAPCOM I believe :)
There is a SID A (the ARMSID) error in the background at (9:02) in the lower voice on the short (music) bit. I can not explain it clearly but it is exactly at 9:02. Software update needed?:)
The ARMSID is up to date with the latest firmware - whether it was SID A or SID B :) :) Thanks for watching :)
earthly idea which is which. I mean, I can tell the difference between A and B. One of them sounds like it has a filter on it compared to the other. But as to which one is the authentic version? Yes idea!
Hope you watched the reveal video to find out :)
I have an ARMSid as well and I'm very happy with it except for one tiny thing, and that's the noise waveform doesn't sound right. It sounds like it's a pitch or two too low which can clearly be heard on the "snares" in these music tracks. I hope there will be an update soon that fixes that, because that's my only gripe with it. I compared my ARMSid to a 6581 R4AR which I have in my C64. So based on my personal experience with the ARMSid, my guess is SID A is the original 8580 sid in this quiz. But since I don't have a C64C I would have no use of a 8580 if the stars and planets would align correctly and I should somehow win so it would be better to give it a home where it will be used and loved.
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A is brighter than B and more clearly defined, but it sounds more like an emulation on higher quality D/A conversion than the 12 bit original. I think B is the 8580 and A is the armsid.
Sorry, you were incorrect this time round - think of it as coming in second :)
SID B is the original one to me, the slight muffle is how I remember it.
The new one sounds almost identical though, I am genuinely impressed.
Oh, and you gained a new sub!
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This is cool. They must've improved the firmware quite a lot because when I heard it originally it was quite good but (to my ears) not that near a real chip.
Really I'm stoked to hear that we may finally have a good enough modern replacement, for that most important of chips.. That's amazing news!
My guess, although both sound slightly off (intentionally? I'm assuming those are 6581 tunes), is that SID A is the real one, and B is the ARMSID.
The bass on chip B feels too deep and it's slightly muddy overall.
Don't need a chip though so if I win feel free to give it to someone who needs it. :)
Fun video, keep it up mate! This channel is going to grow and grow.. :)
Thanks very much!
SID A : Heard something funky going on with the B side on crazy comets, just for sanity checking i also got out my trusty late spec 64C for a quick listen and yup, snares don't sound right and since in my experience 8580's have solid consistency in audio i'm 90% positive B is the armSID ;)
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Plug and Play? This is not what Plug and Play means. Direct replacement, drop-in.
Plug and Play meant IRQ, DMA and Memory address had to be specified and you could only change this by directly swapping jumpers on the hardware.
Nah, I just plugged it in and played :) Seriously though, it was a turn of phrase only. :) :)
Not sure which one is the ARMSID but 'A' definitely sounds crisper/brighter/better...
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@@TheRetroShack Am looking forward to it..
Notifications are firmly 'on'. :-)
What started as a fun and simple A/B choice triggers an existential crisis... (& I know I'm too late for the competition.)
A is crisper and cleaner, and to my ears sounds more like what I remember. Switching to B made me think 'umm.' But if I'd not just heard A to compare against, or if A went first, would I still have thought that?
How reliable are my memories anyway? Also much of my listening (over and over again) to these classic tunes over the years came from SidPlay, or RUclips, or an Internet mp3 of unknown origin. Did these sound as they were meant to? Do I even remember the original at all? We know that different era C64's had slightly different SID chips. Do we all have slightly different reference points?
I must admit I later did start comparing the clips in this video with other sources. At least it was at 50 Hz / PAL speeds. "High speed NTSC Commando" really jars with me, but I can understand the opposite may happen for others. Funny what gets ingrained in long term memory.
"Is ARMSID as good as a Real SID" - it might even be better than the real thing depending on what the answer was.
Looking forward to the grand reveal.... Good video - thanks.
Good idea - and done! :)
Forget the comparison, but where is Sid A the chiptunes cover of the Radiohead classic?
Which one? Creep?
@@TheRetroShack, Kid A, the entire album, kid A, Sid A.
SID B to my ears. B sounds slightly more "analogue" and warmer, with less crispness that I would imagine you'd find with a modern day emulated version. But it is very close indeed!
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If there are differences in SID chips, shouldn't there be different firmwares to emulate those specific revisions?
There are settings in the ARMSID to emulate the different SID chips :)
@@TheRetroShack ohwel...thereIgothen!
SID B. It sounds a bit more analogue to me and the bass is a bit more 'muddy'. I'd think the ARM emulation would sound the brightest of the two. In any case now I know what to buy for my broken C64 as they are very close. Thanks for the video!
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SID B - I'd be interested to know how they were recorded as both sound like they have been recorded in a bathroom, a little bit too much reverb/echo . Did you apply any post FX?
I noticed it in the early 'demo' but thought it was a clever part of the sid tune. Anyway, I thought sid B was more accurate to my memory of the tunes. (even though my memory is of 6581 and not 8580)
Lol - nope, not in a bathroom :) All audio (and video) was taken straight from the C64>RGB OUT>SCART>HDMI>OBS Studio, no filtering or FX added at all :)
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I don't have a C64 so have no idea which is the real and which is the replacement, but I just want to say how awesome it is that people are still making replacement parts and upgrades for these much loved computers :)
Couldn't agree more :)
These tunes has only minimal use of sid filters. Why was not used some modern tunes, full of sid effects, for ex. frome some scene demo? When i compared output in 1541UII, which emulate SID on FPGA, Commando was also very good - vs 8580 in computer. But any heavy filtered and sophisticated music, from Crest or Oxyron - emulated SID was very bad (sometimes VERY bad). So how ARMSID? Can C64 musician trust it? Or still must buy original overpriced SID?
SID B is my guess - a filter-heavy demo (e.g. "Edge of Disgrace by Booze Design") should better showcase the difference - a digital filter is always just an approximation - my guess is the original SID prices will continue to rise :). Best regards from Peter/Hawkeye from MIDIbox :).
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For those of you in the UK. Dont forget that you need to import the Chip from the EU - now after Brexit. Best would be to try a local online store to import them in larger quantities and offer them in the UK domestically. That will still be more expensive but you save a lot of those excessive shipping costs caused by the new customs procedures.
Worth shopping around for sure!
A sounds a tiny bit better to me on these two amazing Sid tunes. One complicaton though - Commando and Crazy comets where pretty early games both released in 1985 so they were composed on the 6581 SID, 8580 didn't come out till 1988. I hear some demo tunes can sound quite wrong with artifacts if played on the wrong SID model, so this is a complicated of test of whether the ArmSID or 8580 play 6581 composed tunes better. Hopefuly Armsid has a 6581 mode also.
Indeed it does :) And the fact that these songs were composed for a 6851 and we're playing them here on an ARMSID and an 8580 kind of proves the point that it doesn't really matter if you ONLY have one c64 - it will be different anyway, so an ARMSID would be good enough :) :) :)
@@TheRetroShack It does kinda prove a point :) but leaves it open for an interesting round 2 if we can find amazing sid tunes composed on 8580 to compare. Not easy - I'm not even sure if Armalyte was tuned for 8580 but it sounded staggering on my 8580 fitted C128 :) The 1995 Scene Demo "Mathematica by Reflex" was reportedly tuned for 8580, it has a incredible soundtrack worth a listen and look ;)
@@adymode A follow up? Hmmmmm..... I'll have a little think :)
SID B. A sounds nicer, but I think B is the original analog sound. Wonderful that there are replacements for the SID that are so nice sounding, with a lot of care put into them.
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SID was not analog.
Can you do an exposé on the BBC Master. We had about 30 of those 128k machines in my high school in the 1980s. I think 12 of them were on the Econet.
I'm on the lookout for one at the moment :) I do intend to cover all of the Acorn machines in due course :) (Well, as many as I can get hold of... )
My only gripe about the SID is that all the music sounds the same to me, and I find the shrill style to be irritating.
It really does depend on the tune for me - There are some that are really forgettable and others that simply amaze me :) Thanks for watching!
A: ARMSID
B: MOS 8580R5
A sounds a bit sharp,, in a way that I'm not used to, so this is why I think it must be the ARMSID.
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SID B would to me represent a real SID mainly because of the lag effect of it in Rob Hubbards Commando tune, only times the dragged out lag effect isnt there is usually in emulation
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I don’t pretend to know which is the original but I preferred the sound from A in every instance so my guess would be A is genuine?
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Sorry, but comparing it to a 8580 is pointless. The 8580s all sound alike and have been well emulated in software for years. But it would be a great comparison if you'd acquire 5x 6581 that sound perceivably different in a number of aspects. The question you'd have to come up with would be, does the 6581 emulation of the ARMSID still fit into the scope of 6581 sound, or are there deviations that are 6581 un-typical. (?)
Thanks for watching although the point I'm making here is not that the ARMSID sounds *just* like any other version - it's more that even if it doesn't sound *exactly* like ANY other SID - does that really even matter if it's so close as to make no odds to most people? There's a link in the description of someone who's done amazing analysis on the different SID versions - it's well worth a read.
@@TheRetroShack To find this out, you need to compare it to the 6581. It's not a matter of sounding slightly off; the 6581 do in some aspects sound wildly different from "the" 8580 and even differ from each other. So, the 8580 is, for quite a few older tunes, simply the wrong SID. This is not about HiFi voodo, it's about notes and sounds getting muted, muffled or exaggerated to an extent that you have a different tune when played on a 8580. You can get an impression of that if you listen into different tunes on the Oakvalley collection on different SIDs. www.6581-8580.com Just take the Lightforce music or the Giana Sisters title tune and compare the recordings of 8580 and some of the the 6581s (yes, all 7 minutes of Lightforce). You will see (hear?) that the 6581 cuts off notes and does "wah wah" effects where the 8580 just happily sings into the room. Thus, you can't replace a 6581 with an 8580 and vice versa, you can't replace any 6581 with any other 6581, and after watching your video, we still don't know if we can replace any 6581 with an ARMSID at all! :-)
there is definately a difference between them cant tell you what one is what but b sounds a bit smoother and to me better . ill go with A as beeing the original chip . i would have no use for the chip though would love too know what one is what .
You’re right - A is the original SID :)
Playing Gridrunner & Impossible Mission there are some sounds that I noticed a difference between the ArmSID and the 6581,8580,Nano SwinSID, UltiSID and VICE but so long as things work it is fine with me.
All will be revealed weekend of the 13th March! :)
I've always wished someone would finally create a new (real) SID without emulation, but it's extremely difficult and expensive to find a manufacturer who can still build analog chips. The SID has a digital controller but a large part of the circuit was analog. One way to build a new SID today would be a separate board with discrete components, fully recreating the analog circuit of the SID the way a traditional analog synth would be built. But it would actually be a pretty big project to build a board with the analog path for even 1 channel reproducing all of the SID's features.
Hey, there are a lot of clever people out there, so maybe one day! Fingers crossed, eh? - Although not sure there's the appetite for it given the quality of these replacement SIDS that are coming through these days.
A seems brighter than B. I wonder if the muffled sound is because chip b could be the older original SID.
SID B is the original. (It happens to sound slightly "muffled" compared to the cleaner A output.)
Sorry, you were incorrect this time round - think of it as coming in second :)
My guess is that the real SID chip is B. The extra high end that you can hear in the cymbals is above 4 kHz, which was the SID's upper limit.
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Why did you use the trite background muzak that takes focus away from your intended content?
Hopefully you'll notice in later videos that I get the balance right :) Learnt a lot in a short time :)
If the firmware is changeable, can the harmonics be altered in order to sound like any given revision? Such as the AR version?
Yep, you can change the emulation to sound like different SID revisions and also to change some of the parameters to fine tune the sound :) I didn’t do any of that - sounded perfect to me on the stock settings :)