Why No Tugs MV Dali/Key Bridge Baltimore
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- Опубликовано: 27 мар 2024
- You might be wondering why the MV Dali didn't have tugs on here transit through Baltimore harbor. These are my thoughts.
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Two tractor tugs (10,000+ hp) are required for each tanker exiting Valdez, AK in Prince William Sound (70 miles) and one has to be attached to the tanker for the first 20 miles. One also has to wait at the entrance until the tanker is 17 miles further out to sea before they can return to Valdez. Each tug has a 7 person crew trained for emergency response,
Please see part 2 for clarification. Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
In the waters of Hawai'i the tugs can be 1-1.5 miles ahead of the barge....long tows almost exclusively
Barges in Hawai'i have no brakes so if tugs are towing close hmmmmmm they need the distance. Not to forget the big 10 feet or higher swells and the sketchy channels
In N.H.our deep water port has a narrow channel, ledges, and two turns to get in and two bridges. 3 tugs and a local rover pilot all the way in, and all the way out.
Tugs automatic in Hawai'i safety
Thank you for watching Jeff. CUOTO
@@river4462 I HOPE YOU HAWAIIANS SNAP FORWARD AND DEMOCRATS AND GET FREAKING GET THEM ALL OUT OF THERE AND STOP 🛑 STOP HIRING FAMILY MEMBERS THAT HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE HELL THEY'RE DOING TO MAKE MONEY AND NEPOTISM CRAP VOTE THEM ALL OUT HAWAII AND VOTE FREAKING TO GET OPRAH AND ALL THOSE FREAKING PIECES OF SHIT OUT OF FREAKING HAWAII AND SHIT HAWAII IS NOT FOR FREAKING BILLIONAIRES TO MAKE THEIR OWN PRIVATE LITTLE RESORTS AND STUFF , WHAT ARE THE DEMOCRATS OUT THE WORST THAT CAN HAPPEN IS REPUBLICANS WON'T DO ANYTHING BETTER OTHER THAN THAT GET THEM ALL THE HELL OUT OF THERE BECAUSE I'M A LION AND I MOVED OVER TO THE STATES TO NEW JERSEY AND I DID TEST THE GODDAMN DEMOCRATS AND I DETEST WHAT THE HAWAIIANS THINK OF AS A THEIR LAND TYPE THING HOW DO I SAY IT'S OUR LAND SO WE SHOULD BE RUNNING IT KNOW YOU RUNNING INTO THE GROUND AND FREEING FAMILY MEMBERS AND FRIENDS TO REALLY PUT IT INTO THE GROUND
@jeffhays1968
Old sailboat captain here....always enjoyed seeing those Moran tugs side by side at the docks in Portsmouth...guessing ship captains enjoy them by their sides !
@@davenorman6717 seems tugs would understanably go hand in hand with cargo and other vessels. Automatic☮️🤙🏽🏝
Skipper, that was the first thing I said and wrote about on the Alex Chistoforou blog immediately after it happened.
I wrote that in my day as a seaman 65+ years ago we would have had two tugs, one fore and one aft in confined waters, but I guessed everything had changed now.
Since then another commenter wrote that-that used to be the case at that port, but it was changed to Tugs only for ships of one hundred thousand tons and above.
I can only guess saving money becomes paramount over safety, two tugs could have pulled her to safety without any of loss of life, once again the bean counters get priority over safety.
Regards Ed.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Baltimore is a special case. It's losing ships to the Virginia ports which have several natural (closer to the open sea) and man made (few or no bridges over main channels and good railroad access to the "Inland Port." The "Baltimore Advantage" may well just the willingness to cut charges by cutting corners.
@@GilmerJohn They will lose them now for sure.
Very well said - a calm, pragmatic, unassuming and humble way.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Thanks Tim. So many are pushing the emotional buttons right now so good to hear reason.
Thank you very much for watching. I appreciate your kind words. CUOTO
Hi Capt Tim, I used to work at the Texaco terminal on the Chelsea River in Mass.(long since gone) I saw a Gulf tanker hit the drawbridge at the mouth of the river one night. Thank God there was not the kind of damage as in Baltimore. Part of the sidewalk went into the river and I'm sure some motorists waiting for the drawbridge to close were briefly terrified. To your point there were several tugs pushing so hard on the starboard side of the tanker that they were on what looked like a 30 degree angle from the torque of their engines but they could still not keep the tanker off the bridge. Prayers for those lost in Baltimore and God Bless all professional mariners in the dangerous work you do. PS...I love Dr. Sal's channel too.
💯!!!!!!! Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Yeah I was thinking the tugs would have to be under control to do anything. They wouldn't be able to go hook up to and stop the ship in that situation.
Could somebody please give us American citizens some answers? Why was a ship plagued with electrical problems allowed to leave dock? Enroute to a 27 day journey to SriLanka. I would of thought they must pass a safety checklist prior to voyage. Where is the investigative report on what and why this happened? Black box? Ship's logs? Was the pilot impaired? What is mandatory requirements for ship both entering or leaving any US port? Responsibility of harbormaster pilot? We need answers. This does not pass any smell test.
COME ON MAN ! PLEEEEEZE...WHO PAID YOU TO SAY THIS CAPTAIN GOOFBALL. YOU CANNOT SAY A GOOD LIE. NO MORE OF YOU FOR ME.ADIOSE AMEGOSE. GEEZE !
@user-co7fb6qe5w I hear you, and agree, how did this happen...un seaworthy container ship, 3 football fields long, pushed off docking spot..
Went down straight line to Key Bridge...never made it under wide middle portion...ship went dark, lost steering...that ship should have been lined up, for center of Bridge. I am told no need for tugboat..
5000 meters earlier, Even if went dark.. Tugs on each side may have been able to guide ship thru center. But locals say Tugs never used and no help...maybe needed, consumers pay more.. , how did this on straight center line end up crashing into bridge pylon ??
I just hope this event studied as much as DEEP HORIZON, in Gulf by the coast guard. Suits for negligence, or poor matainence, coming..and obvious....cost, for shipping company to repair Bridge, funerals and loss of life...some dude texts on You Tube. Tugs too expensive. Just an accident...now more fed rules.
Experienced Tug boat guy or he says.
Tim, I'm retired USCG who worked on boats and cutters on the Delaware, Hudson and Upper Mississippi. I live close to the Delaware River, off Roebling NJ. Whenever a ship calls into Fairless Steel, one or two McAllister or Moran Tugs escort the ship to it's berth. What is shocking in this tragedy in Baltimore is to see those exposed bridge abutments in what effectively is one of the busiest ports in the Eastern US. That bridge will be rebuilt. But it must come with a total rethink, reengineering and implementation of making these bridge pier abutments more protected from these larger and larger container carriers that are calling into our old US ports; built in a time when ships these sizes of today were nothing but a pipedream on some naval architects drawing board. And yes, maybe even tug escorts if need be. Think of all the other exposed bridge piers right this very moment and we should all come away not surprised that it hasn't happened up to now (exception of the Tampa Skyway incident). Subscribed, as I see you call into ports on the Delaware quite often!!
Mike... Take a look at the bridges built in Japan by Sumitomo Mitsui. They always protect the bridge pylons with "standoff aprons" or abutments as you refer to them. To me this is a no-brainer, but I am not an engineer, just another person expressing my opinion, right or wrong. I agree with your assessment 100%. Beyond that, I have been in and out of ports in Asia and Europe aboard ships with high freeboard and therefore subject to being pushed around by the wind. As you know from your USCG experience, it doesn't take much wind. Were I the decision maker, I would mandate the pylon abutments and tugs with a release point well beyond the bridge.
Thanks for that info, Galen!@@vance7274
Hi. I worked on the Ohio, and Mississippi Rivers for 14 years. Most of the bridges I saw there had really substantial abutments or a number of pier cells filled with concrete and soil to guard the bridge piers. The builders of those bridges just assumed that one day a large tow of 15,000-20,000 tons would lose power or steering and crash into something while going under the bridge. When I saw the photos of the FSK Bridge in Baltimore my first thought was, WTF, where are the pier cells guarding those spindly looking bridge supports. Why would such an important structure be standing there naked waiting for something to come along and tap one of its supports and bring it down. The reason is that the people who paid for building the bridge didn't want to spend the extra money to protect their investment. It is easier to shift the cost to the shipping companies, and eventually the consumers of the products that they are carrying, or when disaster finally strikes, shift the blame to the ship operators. I am sure that the gov't entities that built the bridge are sending their thoughts and prayers to the families of those poor folks who lost their lives in this tragedy.
I've been looking the last few days as I was crossing, and have realized that the bay bridge also has ZERO defense against ship impacts.
@@whiteyfarm the best part of this event is the fact people with true skills are stepping forward to give first hand over-site from years of sea duty ...each of us see things from our own skills and expertise. and i fully agree with you both ...it is a day when davy jones locker claims land lovers , the sailors know what i mean .we trust our crew and their skills we see the oceans and the sea and we have accepted our risk to be who we are , these people did not . they just wanted to get to the other side ..they will never be forgotten ...RIP to all stay safe stay free
Thanks for that Tim. Been following Dr. Sal's channel for a while now really great in-site to all things shipping and 20 odd years as a fireman massively experienced guy.
💯 Dr Sal is the man! Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
@@TimBatSealink to dr Sal ng
Thank you for your opinion on this. I've developed a lot of respect for the tugboat operators and what they can do. I've seen them really haul tail in an emergency and prevent real damage. It's my professional opinion that this tragedy would not have happened.Had they held onto one of the tugs going out.
What is going on with shipping is criminally good...
Compared to traditional media, we have gotten the technical details rather than the wash of emotion material they usually do.
Like the old school reporting back in the old days, just specialized in one field.
Ships when passing near or under large structures should keep only minimum speed (2kts). Also its better if escorted by tugs.
Here, at Baltimore, many wrong decisions by the port mgmt.
1. Ship was set free to head before crossing the bridge.
2. Need of tug boats was omitted at this critical passage.
3. Very less dolphins to protect the bridge from impact.
4. Traffic was not stopped and maintenance work on the bridge was also going on.
5. No VHF communication for the maintenance workers on the bridge.
Tim my name is Kim. I liked what you said regarding speaking about things you know little about. I flat refuse to get into an argument about something I know little or nothing about. Operating Tug Boats or 1,000 foot ships would be one of those things, hence no stupid questions. I've been watching with interest your comments and those of Sal's "What's up with shipping". My experience in boating is high performance offshore pleasure and racing boats, just sayin. Thanks very much for your explanations and content, stay safe!
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Working on Tugs for many years I can only give you my own experience. It really does depend on the Port and its difficulties on entering on leaving and the conditions that are prevalent on the day. The standard procedure when the Port has an open entrance. Is to assist the ship when leaving the quay and once it is under its own power, it makes its own way. And the Tugs continue on their way. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the procedure. It was just a terrible accident and can only be blamed on mechanical failure.
And it isn't just a matter of being in a port. What about ANY bridge that a ship goes under that has 'wet' supports. How many are along the Intercoastal? Do they need tugs as well, just in case of power outages\maneuvering failures? I don't really see more tugs as the solution. More and better dolphins, fenders where possible etc... are better choices.
💯!!!! Thank you very much for watching and commenting so perfectly Anthony. CUOTO
I think this SOP should change. I was in the Navy for 25 years, and I’ve been on many combatants, and supply ships (engineering). We could loose power at anytime pulling in and out of port. I have seen it happen. Plus if we can give billions to other countries, Federal DOT can pay for a tug crew at each port of entry. If they’re going to give it away, at least give it to someone here.
As a pilot myself, I still find it incredible that given the constrains of the channel and having to pass under such a critical piece of infrastructure, close proximity to the ship berths and tug berths, that an escort tug isn't standard practice here, and this situation wasn't highlighted as a potential high risk scenario a long time ago? Everything is fine until it's not.... As a pilot you have to have in your mind that this could happen at any moment on every job, and continuously be thinking of an emergency plan in the back of your mind.
Nothing makes a Pilot happier than having the security blanket of having a tug or tugs with you. Huge thanks and respect to all Tug crews out there. You guys never get enough thanks for your work with us.
@@skipah01 I 100% agree. You’re spot on.
Forgot to mention, I've used a tug to lean on the quarters at various speeds up to 8-9 knots, and is very effective to steer and control a vessel. As you point out, pushing at the bow is not very effective, due to being so close to the ship's pivot point, only gain really is some bodily shift. Leaning or pushing on the quarters works so well due to the distance aft from the pivot point, essentially a longer lever. If you don't already use or drill this technique with the Pilots at your port, definitely worth raising and having a go with them. An excellent emergency situation tool.
True. Thank you for watching. CUOTO
You care to say which harbor you work in?
@@TimBatSea You didn't say why that ship made a almost 90 degree turn in about 30 seconds to plow into the bridge. Unless you can tell us why that ship went from going straight down the middle of the channel on it's way to go under center span to making a hard turn to starboard in a short amount of time to hit the bridge you haven't told us anything .
@@phoebus actually AIS data shows 11 degrees of turn. Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
@@TimBatSea Well that's bull. Are you telling me that you are only seeing 11 degrees of turn to starboard on the videos? If you are then you have no credibility. You don't go from seeing the side of the ship almost full on to only seeing the bow with a turn of only 11 degrees. There was a small turn to port a second or two just before impact, that small turn was probably about 11 degrees.
I felt terrible for the people who lost their lives on that bridge and it helps to be able to go to a channel like Tim's here where we can make sense of it all. To Tim and Sal and some others, a tip of the hat to you all and thank you for having your channels. They are entertaining and informative.
Thank you very much. I really appreciate that. CUOTO
Having the workers on the bridge saved many lives because the police vehicles were there controlling traffic and when they got the mayday they blocked traffic at both ends saving many lives.
@@TimBatSea See You On The Ocean ?
It is always great to hear about the impacting technicalities from a professional, thank you!
Thank you very much for watching Sam. CUOTO
You are correct. The two tugs taking the Dali away from her berth let her go when she had steerage and a strait shot down the channel to Bay. Others need to keep in mind the ship is over 900 feet in length and was fully loaded. The head pilot did order an anchor to be dropped to try and shift the direction, but it didn't work.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Where I grew up, ships under the big bridges always had tugs - and the maximum speed was 5 knots within 200m of shore. And yes, there used to be a lot more tugs with more crews - and cost. This is not an unknown risk, as it has happened before in various Nations, and it has always been a risk decision where to have the main port. In my own home city they decided to build a new port with a 2km berthing length seaward of the main bridge, which cost an insane amount but was actually the best way to protect the cities bridges without needing tugs that may, or may not, have been able to prevent disaster.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Thanks Capt, Dr Sal and you are my go to in all situations marine. Your experience and insight helps sift through the volumes of information. Terrible situation. Hope you are not tied up too long. Bsafe, CUOTO
Thank you very much for watching Steven. CUOTO
Great editorial on this subject. Thank you.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Well said Tim, thanks for your insight. You AND Dr. Sal are great. Two different perspectives. Real, honest, and spot on. Have been following both of you. Thanks! Keep up the good work.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Good info Tim. Makes sense that after they got the vessel on a straight direction, that it would make sense that it could navigate the rest of the way out. Will be interesting to see what they find out.
Thank you very much for watching Bob. CUOTO
Excellent professional explanation sir!
Always gonna have hindsight views that have all the answers.
You nailed it! Thanks for your years of experience!
This like so many unfortunate events will go down in history to learn from it and move forward.
Stay safe!
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
In the 70's my dad ran tugs towing dump scows for a dredge co. They got a job in Beverly Ma. that required going through two bridges that were not aligned. Their tug was a single screw 300HP. antique, after one white knuckle pass dad quit until the bought a 2000 hp. twin screw tug. He said if you take down a bridge you never work again
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
i agree with your analysis. being a Master also for 20 years, also conformed that when ship already gain momentum with massive weight of the vessel tugs become helpless. we can just imagine during manuevering while docking or undocking that sometimes tugs cant control the sudden movement of the ship how much that she had made already of 8 kts. but anyway lets pray for the family of the victims for this accident.
💯!! Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Awesome explanation as always! Concise and informative 👍🏽
Thank you very much Matt! CUOTO
The uprights on that bridge did seem to be extremely vulnerable with no abutments surrounding them, that ship managed to hit that pylon and knock the bridge down before anything below the waterline hit anything. The upper bow of the ship should never have been able to get far enough to hit the bridge. The bridge may have been there for a long time, but it wasn't built or upgraded to contend with the ships we have nowadays. Just my 10 cents, it was an accident waiting to happen.
Governments regardless of country like to spend money on new projects because they attract a lot of attention. Spending money on upgrades doesn't.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
The bridge does have dolphins, but they are small, and quite a distance from the supports themselves. The ship hit at an angle that avoided the dolphin.
@@SgtBrendanN Yes I've seen them, but when this bridge was built in the mid 70s, ships were tiny in comparison to what they are today. The first container ships had only been around for about 5 years and they were tiny. No additional protection for the actual bridge seems to have been added since that time. For such an important bridge in such an important shipping lane and harbour, that seems a pretty shocking state for it to be in.
The ship was actually aground before it hit. It didn't much matter.
Yes you are correct some ports are compulsory to use tugs escorting the vessel after leaving the port if there is anticipating less water in the channel and to pass the bridge. One reason the vessel operator avoids cost tugs bill.
Please see part 2 for clarification. Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
The rail incident you refer to was not trivial. A barge operating in a fog turned up a wrong channel. Lacking appropriate radar training, the captain blundered into a railroad bridge, and pushed the track out of alignment. Eight minutes later, an Amtrak train attempted to cross that bridge and derailed. It was horrific. 47 people died and 107 more were injured. If I may quote the Wiki: "The towboat's pilot, Willie Odom, was not properly trained on how to read his radar and so, due to very poor visibility in heavy fog and his lack of experience, did not realize he was off course. The boat also lacked a compass and a chart of the waters." There was a reason for those regulations. This was not trivial. Interested readers may read further: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bayou_Canot_rail_accident
Willie Odom turned down the wrong channel. Not up. A man must know his limitations. Obviously he didn't know the course in the icw. He could have stopped and pushed against the bank instead of fkng guessing and waking the captain and giving him a wrong position. He seen the bridge light and thought it was an industrial site further into the course westward. Minor detail
Bet Willie will never live it down what a tragedy! Imagine waking up in that mess.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
That sounds like a horrific avoidable tragedy!!
Excuse the past. Don't change, maybe it won't happen again.
Very helpful, thank you. You place the tug's rolein clear perspective.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Thank you for sharing your knowledge
Thank you very much for watching Walter. CUOTO
Spot on and excellent explanation Tim, thank you. It's very difficult to read some of the comments online or even listen to some of the news outlets when they just have no clue… There's so many people that just don't have an understanding of basic weight and inertia, never mind marine education lol. Take care my friend.
Well I do have perspective, having operated several boats in the same water for many years, had an uncle who operated a tug in that harbor, etc and a tug would have, could have prevented such. A slight bump, change in direction would have could have saved the bridge. Your comment makes you seem an expert looking down on all the little people who you seem to think have no common sense because they don't own a ship, nonsense.
😂😂😂"Hold my beer" Adam. 😂 Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
@@aday1637 no, sir I was really only referring to the comments that I have read that say"why didn't the idiots driving that boat just put it in reverse?"
Thanks for your detailed explanation. I was wondering about this!👍
Thank you very much for watching Barry. CUOTO
Very informative and helpful. Thank you very much!
Thank you very much for watching Johnathan. CUOTO
That bridge had been standing for nearly 50yrs without incident as thousands of ships had passed under.Sometimes all the holes in the Swiss cheese line up and things go wrong, it’s more unbelievable to me that this doesn’t happen far more often than once in 50 years..
The odds are... now established.
💯 Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
That's what they want you to believe! Just so happened that the redundancies failed and the ship CONVENIENTLY and SUDDENLY turned right into the pylon!
@@edkiely2712 please see part 2 for clarification.
Another great video. Your concern and knowledge helps us all. I hope this investigation will be thorough and proper. It seems from what I have seen, the entire problem escalated after the power outage and engine shut down. From you and other RUclips channels; i.e. Chief Mako.... There is an immense amount of paperwork about the work done, the schedule of work and inspections. My personal prayer is that the investigation will find EVERYTHING was done right and this was a very terrible accident. I also offer my condolences and prayers for the families of those lost. Stay safe and keep up the good work.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Thank you for your perspective.
Thank you for watching. CUOTO
Thanks for your insight Tim.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Thanks for the excellent explanation and great content!
Thank you for watching. CUOTO
Well said Tim !
Thank you very much for watching Rick. CUOTO
Thank you for your very reasoned explanation of the role of tugs in this sad situation. Very helpful.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Thanks for you illustrations and explanations
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Lots of us are wondering the same thing. I live in Baltimore. Been over this bridge many times . Passed under it too .
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Thanks, Tim. After I had commented on your previous video it occurred to me that this would be a great subject for another. I've seen several comments online from people wondering exactly this.
Thank you very much for watching Brian. CUOTO
@@TimBatSea Thanks also, Tim! But to be clear --- in your opinion, if the two McAllister tractor tugs (the Bridget McAllister at 5,080 HP and the Eric McAllister at 5,150 HP) had continued to escort the Dali in the channel could they have affected the Dali's steerage enough to prevent it from hitting the bridge with the Dali's two power loses?
*WHY NO BARRIERS* Sunshine Skyway was fourty four goddamned years ago!
Thank you for watching. Most bridges built after Tampa are much better protected. CUOTO
@@TimBatSea Up here in Halifax we retrofitted protection to our bridges after the the risk was identified in '77. Lots of depth but tugs are required through the harbour. It's not that expensive and it does make sense. Cough.
The Key Bridge was built before the Skyway came down.
I'm glad you posted this because I was curious about why tugs don't escort these ships past all bridges.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Very good video, crystal clear, like your comments about the crew and pilots on board the ill fated vessel.
Thank you very much for watching! CUOTO
I think current dolphins are insufficient to protect bridges. Bows of modern ships have such a large overhang (flare), by the time the underwater portion of the ship hits the dolphin, the deck level of the ship may still hit the bridge. The new bridge design should consider this. Bow thrusters: How effective are bow thrusters when a ship this size is moving at 8 knots?
Thrusters are of no use during a power outage. 🤔
Note the nearby power lines to the bridge that is a dolphin ! The bridge had only concrete piling about 100 feet out USELESS. After the Sunshine skyway collision in ‘81 ??, they proposed dolphins for this bridge but deemed too expensive (now LOL)
That seems to be a factor here. The ship damage is at the bow main deck so that looks like what took out the pylons. Bridge was built in the late 1970s. The Dali is neoPanamax so about 50' wider than a Panamax ship of the past. That give about 25' more reach from the flare. Waterline looks dented but apparently didn't take out the dolphin wall that kept the current off the pylons.
Thank you very much for watching Jerry. Thrusters have no effect when underway an as stated below, no power - no thrusters. As to dolphins, I don't believe there are dolphins that will stop a 100k ton ship moving at that speed. After the Tampa bridge disaster, they start shoaling around dolphins and bridges. This would likely be the only chance at stopping or diverting a ship this big and fast. CUOTO
8 knots is way too fast!
Newport Harbor is limited to 5 knots.
Just posted this great video on my page as this is a real world perspective.
LIVE THE TUG LIFE!
Thank you very much! I appreciate that. CUOTO
Common sense there Tim. Sal is well worth the visit too. Thank you.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Their risk benefit analysis told them they could afford the risk given thd benefit. I dare say tugs of the size required are 20,000 / hr. So someone made the decision and lost.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Tugs left ship after it made the turn into the channel. Job done, returned to port.🎉
SOP. Please see part 2 for clarification. Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Very interesting video.much appreciated insights ❤
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Your perspective is really useful and very well presented.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Tim great talk...we have to remember that in life, accidents happen,,no matter what we do!
💯!!!! Thank you very much for watching Charlotte. CUOTO
Thanks Tim, you explained something that I had no concept of.... I thought a tug would have been able to control a "loose" ship,
I didn't realise a loose ship at 8 knots has so much inertia, that no tug would have held it!
I suppose even the ship itself, with full available power and control, takes a great effort and time to respond to the helm.
Lets hope there are no knee jerk reactions because of what happened.
Thank you for watching! I am sure heads will roll. CUOTO
Much like people who ask why a train could not stop when it saw a stuck car from a half mile away... it is too big for most people to realize how big it is.
Should have been more proactive instead of all the reactive drama. Tugs waiting nearby even before anything out of the ordinary happened.
770,000 KJ of kinetic energy by the way compared to the 888 KJ of a 2 ton car going 70 Miles per Hour.
Tugs basically bump the ship to keep it on course.
Thanks Tim, I appreciate your perspective, you’re a true mariner!
Thank you very much! I appreciate that. CUOTO
I always appreciate your knowledge and experience
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
⚓ Sal sent me..... 😎✌️
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Samesies 🎉
@@mostlyvoid.partiallystars Thank you very much
A lot of people say they should just go really slow. They don’t understand that the wind and current can greatly affect these monster ships at slow speeds. Also, Dead slow ahead on this thing is probably 7-8kts. Taking the engine off to try and keep speed down means reduced water flow over the rudder and more of a chance for things to get out of control. It’d be interesting to know how many tens or hundreds of thousands of tug/barges and ships have been under that bridge since 1976. Just a bad chain of events. If they had lost the plant minutes earlier it might have just ran aground.
It's a chain of events that was completely preventable. If going slower isn't practical due to the currents, that just makes having proper protection for the bridge in terms of more concrete at the base and higher up. Proper dolphins in the water to help direct the ship around the pylon and more tugs to help keep the ship from colliding with the bridge.
If that isn't enough, then it's completely unacceptable to have a bridge over a section of water with those ships. Either nix the bridge or nix the docks. We're fortunate that there were probably only 6 casualties. This could have happened with even less lead time or during a busier part of the day.
💯!! Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
@@SmallSpoonBrigadeEven at a leisurely 9knots or 10mph, the mass of a fully loaded container ship imparts an instantaneous force exceeding 2 Million HP! Shoring up the pylons with protection for this would double the cost of the $1.2B bridge, and possibly damage the ship to the point of foundering.
@@luisderivas6005 It wouldn't double the cost. You just made that up.
@@luisderivas6005 If it truly can't be shored up enough, and tugs can't do the job, then they shouldn't have been running ships that size past that bridge. As I said, the whole thing was completely avoidable.
Thank you you’re awesome and appreciate the working knowledge and perspective
Thank you very much Sam! CUOTO
Thank you for a great explanation!
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Thanks Tim!!
Thank you for watching. CUOTO
Ex-Marine Accident Investigator, Canadian govt.:Two tugs should have escorted the ship past the bridge, but the ship has to go slow enough so that tugs can be effective. So in future you will find the ship on a slow bell,with two tugs escorting, and seamen on the forecastle ready to drop both anchors. You can see from the moment the forecastle deck working light comes on that there was nobody up there until then. Port Authority not proactive enough to protect bridge. Also bridge pedestals should have berms to protect them.
Please see part 2 for clarification.
I disagree with some of your points.
Some ships, especially container vessels and car carriers, have a minimum speed of 8-9 knots and standard harbour tugs simply cannot keep up. Maybe be in future dedicated escort tugs will be used. Secondly, there 100% would have been ships crew standing by the anchors on the forecastle. Saying you couldn’t see them on the footage is just ridiculous… Shaquille O’Neill would have been impossible to see on that footage.
@@scottM-ws7yo 8-9 Knots is to fast and anchoring is restricted in that canal.That is why ship need tugs all the way inn and out of port.
@@ocendo1
Yes it’s quite fast for a ship this size but a normal speed to transit a channel. 7-8 knots is equivalent to first gear on a ship like this.
@@scottM-ws7yo Hardly! Although steerage gets worse as speed is lost, these ships can still steer at Dead Slow Ahead. They just require more rudder power. If the engine is stopped, rudder power can be augmented by a ‘kick ahead’ with the main engine. I served my Apprenticeship on a thousand-footer, and saw that is often done by pilots and the Master.
You knew plenty and explained it well! Thank you!❤❤❤
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Well spoken response to the question. Thank you.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
They used to take the ships in and out of the channel with tugboats i dont know why they stopped doing that
Probably the extra expenses made them stop doing it. But it’s purely the assessment of the probability of something going wrong, which is near 0, but on the other sides the what’s the result when it goes wrong, which we see is catastrophic. So was it a risk worth taking? Probably in lots of places with a similar layout people will rethink their policies now.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Can't put a price tag on safety.
@@roswellramseur621 Really? Do you drive the safest car? Do you live in the safest house in the safest community? Do you have the safest fire suppression system in your house? Do you have.... This can go on forever. The point is, we bitch about taxes but we can't even fix the roads or bridges. I think we all put a price on safety but we aren't willing to pay it.
So the takeaway message is considering the narrow passage and the immense size and momentum of the ship, additional safety factors, such as a tractor tug and dolphin barriers wouldn't have effectively averted the collision. Also, the design of the bridge and its immense span isn't designed to withstand those shear forces. The disaster; a Shock, but not a Surprise.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Thanks for clearing this issue up for us. As no one who has ever worked on a ship or a Tug I was asking myself the same question (Why No Tuggs) Now I know . Thanks again.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Well put Tim. Thank you.
Thank you very much Doug! CUOTO
Synergy embraced DEI
Yep, it's taken precedence over qualifications.
And it is everywhere.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Great video. As a harbour Pilot myself, I'm glad I'm not the only one astounded that there wasn't at least one escort tug as standard practice until clear of such a tight channel and critical piece of infrastructure. As you point out, it's only a few miles from the berth, and the consequences as we have seen are catastrophic.
The part that really amazes me is the complete disregard for any possible failures. I can sort of understand thinking that outgoing vessels aren't going to have mechanical failures that quickly, but what happens if there's a sudden medical emergency of some sort that incapacitates the pilot and anybody else there that can operate the vessel, or there's just an old fashioned mistake? The bridge had no protective engineering that I can identify in case of a ship contacting it. Nothing to prevent a ship from colliding in this fashion and apparently no tugs either.
What's more, one doesn't need to be a pilot to know that without properly functioning engines and the rest of it, there's not much that anybody on the ship could do.
That's not what Tim said. Listen from 6:00 onward. Paraphrasing, he said that the two McAllister escort tractor tugs would not have been able to significantly affect the steerage of the ~100,000-ton Dali at the 8+ knots it was traveling when this particular accident happened due to two complete power loses. And at 8:45 he said continuous escorts in the future for all ships would be cost prohibitive and unnecessary.
Tugs make great fenders.
Apparently the pilots attempted to get the tugs back (NYT) in an attempt gain control of their vessel, but unfortunately they were too far away to make it. Sure, it is expensive to have the extra safety precaution, but so is paying for a multi-billion dollar replacement bridge and six lives. Add in the economic impact and we could be talking about 100s of billions of dollars.
It could have happened at 1:30 PM and we would be talking about 1000s of lost lives. @@Raiders33
Tugs don't make good fenders if you are on one.
You are a good speaker Tim.
Thanks for sharing your insights.
I learned a lot about tugs and how important they are in keeping our ports safe.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Thank you so much as a TUG Captain Professional Mariner 😊 talking about how Tugs would have been positioned and NOT having power to STOP this massive container ship. After the terrible Oil spit in Alaska. I remember the build up to escort and I will say super Tug builds with massive ( BALLARD pull) the term means a super tug with winches being able to pull with winch without turning over. Company had to build these super tugs just for the Alaska Pipeline terminal and be hooked up with there cable ropes to Oil tankers. This was very expensive builds to make these tugs. On the new bridge on Tacoma Narrows. They had to have a very powerful Tug there all the time they were raising the new spans because of very swift current at tide changes. It had to help the barge with new section of bridge say still. Even though that barge had (4) portable BIG thrusters on each corner of barge. That Tug stayed at bridge site 24/7 think of the cost. Escort tugs are an expense that no one wants to pay for.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
@@TimBatSea
I am highly recommend your channel and you as a Professional Mariner and very important issue on this bridge collapse collision. About the Tugboat usage in Dock assists with very large super size ships. And especially important about your great information on even if a tug or two would have been escorts or even lines up to stern. Very important as a brake style to slow forward motion of again will say super large ships we have today. I hate how new build tugs are going to this "O" emissions to meet Port requirements
Tugs have to be as you the Tug Captain. Have to have that massive Diesel engine that doesn't have all this emissions BS. You need pulling or pushing power ( hopefully you as a tug won't tip over) pushing on the bow in an emergency. Tugs have rolled over in the past. That great video of the Navy tug alongside a Nuclear sub and sub just continues to move and eventually the tug gets dragged under and SINKS. That's the ONE big issue I worry about you personally in your Profession job, you arein. I really like your video talking about Tugboat life, even showing the footage of buying food for the crew. A well feed crew with great MEAT dinner is a happy 😊 crew and that so important to you in bridge, as your crew handle those huge tow line any time of day.
Tugs aren’t to blame here but Tugs will definitely need to increase their numbers to prevent this tragedy in future.
Bridges with a certain pilon width say 1200ft and narrower require a tug for 1NM from the stern.
We’re not savages we’re a sophisticated society and this is what we do to ensure safety for the ship, the crew, infrastructure, workers and citizens.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Very interesting. Thank you.
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
I appreciate your view point on this, and that you're looking at it with some logic and reason, and a lot of real world experience.
I could also see it pains you that something tragic happened on the waters.
CUOTO
Hello, what does cuoto mean?
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
See you on the one
No blame. But the cost of keeping the harbor tug on contract for another 30 minutes to clear the bridge is a few thousand dollars. Two minutes of a tractor tug to re-direct that bow could have saved a billion dollar re-build.
Keep in mind corporations always want profit to be private and risk to public.
Thank you very much for watching Jules. I don't believe there is a tug on the planet that could have stopped this. CUOTO
Then there's another bridge 15 miles south of Baltimore. Do you pay for tugs there too?
@@jcl410 _"Then there's another bridge 15 miles south of Baltimore. Do you pay for tugs there too?"_
And there's the bridge-tunnel at the entrance to the Bay. Do you keep the tugs all the way to the ocean?
Appreciate your insights. Seems everyone is throwing up / mentioning tugs as a solution without any analysis as to why or why not.
PS - Any bridge built to current standards would be built totally different. New foundation will be outside the shipping channel and /or protected by a large dolphin or both.
💯!! Thank you very much for watching William. CUOTO
@@TimBatSeaCompare FSK BRIDGE to Kerch Bridge
A neighbor of mine was a bay pilot years ago and the policy then required tugs to take large vessels in and out. The tugs were also responsible for picking the pilot up once they were cleared of the of the bridge.
A different time with different (smaller) ships. Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
The issue isn't with tugs but with the seriously deficient amount of pylons and other structures shielding the bridge supports.
Please see part 2 for clarification. Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Thanks for clearing up the issue of not having tugboats guiding the ship out. JH
Thank you very much for watching John. CUOTO
@michaelpezzullo3591 Bureaucrats was the term he was hunting for.
@michaelpezzullo3591so on the same thought process if we add another 20% container to each ship prices will come down? What is the real cost? Where do guidelines emphasize safety first/ profit 2nd?
Way too many conflicting 'expert' opinions.
Biden and congress immediately on right there with conclusive solutions before a thorough investigation has been complete? What about Eazt Palenstine, Ohio. Maui? Selectivereactions. Why?
@michaelpezzullo3591😂 That is such a LIE. I think $2 per container would cover it and that's it.
He didn’t clear up anything. If one tug isn’t enough, the ship should have enough tugs escorting to control the ship. If this isnt possible, the ship should be allowed in the bay. We can regulate ship size.
Thanks Tim,you are spot on.After a marine incident,the NTSB makes a recommendation and the USCG makes the regulation.Some good some bad.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Thanks for this knowledgeable background
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Came over from What's going on with Shipping.
Yea, most of the time a tug is on, the ship is at low speed, which reduces manoverability.
Once the ship gets up to speed, E = MC² applies.
The weight of the ship and SPEED equals the energy the tug would have to shoulder over.
With such a short distance from the beginning of the event to it's conclusion, there probably wasn't much the tug (s) could do even if they had been there.
Dr Sal has some very smart viewers. Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
E=MC²? The ship was going so fast it was approaching the speed of light? Or was it powered by a nuclear reaction? 😁
I think you're looking for KE=½ mv²
Follow-up too previous comment. Captain Sulley just basically had to plop down on some water that didn't have a bridge or current and darkness of Nyquil or night to deal with.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Thank you for your frank and factual discussion of tugs and ships. I too had questions concerning the absence of tugs on this horrible accident. While there are many questions to be answered by the investigation, your factual information of the effects of a tug versus a large vessel at even five knots answered my curiosity. CUOTO
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
I appreciate hearing your humble opinion whereas I asked about Tugs from an ignorant position = like I know nothing. It's very safe
being an Armchair Warrior.... lol, I know the area & have friends who now have some problems getting to work but they'll figure all
that out. At least Baltimore was promised a big chunk of change for structural upgrades although I doubt they had planned to use
the money on a new bridge? All that said, thanks for explaining some of the water depth & other considerations that we'd never
know? Only someone like you could share it w/ us...... you be safe out there// peace & GB ALL
Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
I'll defer to your knowledge of the how things marine work, but even though you mentioned it, I feel you lost the main point of why no tugs - costs. I've lived in Baltimore since 1955 and well remember the controversy over building a bridge versus another tunnel. The cheaper bridge won of course, but using tugs as escorts past the bridge was a big issue because of this exact possibility. It was supposed to happen, but the shipping companies won out because of the added expense. You can say it's overkill, but then so is a lifejacket until you need it.
Thank you for watching James. CUOTO
Tim thanks for that. There are so many factors at play here and the biggest is time, the inspectors will poor over every detail of this. But just like airline pilots the captain and pilot of MV Dali will be chasing each problem as they arise in seconds not hours.
Some bridges have deflection structures to protect bridge piers and other structures, but have they been upgraded each time a larger ship enters port over the years? To deflect that amount of tonnage plus the momentum of it all. Takes a lot of very serious design and it has to be independent of the bridge.
Bow thrusters have taken over in the docking maneuver of ships in a lot of ports, which is OK until something goes wrong. A container ships the other day wiped out 4 loading cranes while attempting to dock.
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Dr. Sal’s is great! Thanks Tim
Agreed! Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Navigate to them Waters at night time you guys are badass
Thank you for watching. CUOTO
I expect to see "feel-good" legislation. I'd like to see more bridge pier protection systems. I also think we're looking at least one year for bridge engineering and fabrication time with the full project running 3-5 years. Would also expect to see a McDermott sized barge crane showing up in the next 72 hours.
Donjon is enroute. Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Thank you so much for saying these costs are passed onto consumers
Please see part 2 for clarification.
Great info! Thanks!
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
If somebody thinks that tugs should have been with the accident MV through the location of the incident, shouldn't they also stay with the vessel 20 more miles to the next bridge that has to be navigated under???? And what size vessel would require having tugs??? Do I need a tug escort with a sailboat going under the bridge? And how close does the ship have to travel to the piers before needing tugs? Do I need a tug escort for my sailboat going under the Golden Gate Bridge?
💯! Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Maybe they should limit the size of the ship! And from your opinion you probably need a tug boat if you were in a rubber raft, you can't see the Forest because of all the trees.
@@karlschaefer4660 😂😂😂😂 Good point!
www.youtube.com/@TimBatSea Thanks Tim! But to be clear --- in your opinion, if the two McAllister tractor tugs (the Bridget McAllister at 5,080 HP and the Eric McAllister at 5,150 HP) had continued to escort the Dali in the channel could they have affected the Dali's steerage enough to prevent it from hitting the bridge with the Dali's two power loses?
I do not believe they could while the ship that size was moving at that speed. Thank you very much for watching. CUOTO
Hey Tim, thanks for shedding some needed light on this tragedy. My observations seem to indicate that when someone points the blame, they pick the nearest target. I would rather they scan the range and find the target nearest to the source of the problem. Anyway, thanks again and I’ll CUOTO, ED
💯!! Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
A friend a year ahead of me just retired. He was a Columbia River pilot there, but also maintains his license farther south where he's lived his entire life in Coos Bay.
Coos Bays entrance is a bit tricky as a ship goes a mile through the jetty, they need to make a rather hard left hand turn to proceed down the bay. Watching Marine Traffic one day I saw this wood chip ship making this turn at around ten or 11 knots...... Heck, they only do 14 out in the ocean.
I asked my pilot friend why they didn't go sloweraking that turn.
His reply made total sense.
He said if the chip is going to slow, you can't steer it.
I mention this because I've read a lot of comments on various sites saying the ship was going to fast.
This fellas father was a pilot and owned our local pilot company. It's so cool to know the family and learn some tid bits on shipping, piloting, especially so in out historical logging town.
Thanks for adding your 2 cents ($250/inflation) to the conversation about this disaster. It gives people a reality check on a subject that they know absolutely nothing about.
...I know just enough to get myself in trouble. 😁
💯!! Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
I found Dr Sals channel through this catastrophe! He has an excellent channel and has done a terrific job of covering this.
💯!! Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO
Thank you for this.
Things make so much more sense when someone who actually knows a thing or two, rather than all these pundits out there spouting all their conspiracy theories.
Thank you very much for watching Bob. Yeah, it makes my head explode at times. CUOTO
Thanks for your take on this Tim, I was wondering the same thing!
Thank you for watching. CUOTO
Thank you for your thoughtful comments! This one hits pretty close to home for me since I live near DC and have driven over the Key bridge many times. The fault here IMO is the bridge design. There should have been a concrete and rip rap barrier around the abutments large enough to absorb any collisions from ships. These bridges require "islands" to protect their supports. As seen here, not doing so invites dire consequences. I hope that your vessel is outside the bridge and not trapped in the inner harbor. Perhaps you could tell us more about where you are now and what's going to happen with your cargo?
Thank you very much for watching and welcome to the channel. CUOTO