Lead-pouring disaster (Rebuilding Tally Ho EP101)
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Rebuilding a historic sailing yacht - Lead pouring disaster (EP100)
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EPISODE 101
In this episode we attempt to slightly enlarge the lead ballast keel by pouring a layer of molten lead on top of it. Before we actually pour I discuss the reasons for doing this and we fabricate a large “pig” to melt the lead in.
Unfortunately when we actually pour the molten lead things do not go as planned! ….and now I’m left with a very difficult decision.
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Music;
Oh Fire - Carmen María and Edu Espinal
River Radio 92.3 WBPM - Unicorn Heads
You Can't Fail - Density & Time
Tiptoe Out the Back - Dan Lebowitz
Soft Feeling - Cheel
101. Lead-pouring disaster (Rebuilding Tally Ho/ EP101)
Recast! One stronger single keel, no cracks, voids or seperations.
Why add old problems into all the work you've done?
Although stronger, it would certainly be quite a herculean effort to chop the old keel down, (excessive lead dust) get a much larger bin and build a much larger wooden structure.
The other problem is just the quantity of lead that would have to be molten in a single pour.
Although not impossible, the melting kiln, now "The Pig", would have to be much larger since multiple kilns would be difficult to manage.
All in all, molten lead poured onto solid led bonds really well if the solid lead is heated enough causing the top layer to melt and bond with the new lead. So there shouldn't any problems, in this case , making voids actually useful, dangerous by the escaping air throwing molten lead around, but useful for bonding in the core of the solid lead.
@@adminv2869 It is not necessary to chop up the keel, a focused gas torch (oxy) will do the job without a dust problem. The keel can also be cast in layers it will still be strong enough ( freshly poured led will be stronger than a badly poured keel that is approximately 100 years old . The mould should also have a steel inner liner, does not to be thick as long as you have the wooden frame to hold it in place. this may be structurally damage during the torch works. My solution would be tomake a steel trough (mould) from 10mm thick steel supported on the sides to prevent bulging. then cast the keel in layers (the thickness will be dictated by the amount of lead the the 'pig' can comfortably handle) keep the new keel semi molten on top between each casting and do not let the keel cool too quickly (prevents voids forming).
@@johnmckinley8447 i would also add a structure of iron bars, like we do in reinforced concrete. Makes it stronger but im not sure if its necessary.
My idea for melting the old lead keel is to use the pig and sort of smelt the keel into smaller pieces, wich can be but into the pig. Then smelt all lead and make lead bars, so you can store them and use them later. And the lead is not so dirty anymore.
I think if youre pouring it in layers, a steel bar structure could help to give it more integrity. Wouldnt cost much and is safe. I see no demerits in casting a iron bar structure in the lead(other than reheating it with blowtorches would be a small pain in the ass). Also another merit is that you wouldnt have to do it in one session, as the bar structure gives the leayers of lead stability and holds them together. Still the issue with the lead smelting through the alread poured lead is still there, but with an iron cast around it would pose no thread. You could design the end of the outlet better, so it wont pour in one place, like a sort of shower head. You would have to keep it hot with blowtorches, but it has worked as we've seen.
Also you'd have to warm up the already cast layer of lead before each session. IF you're dooing it in one day you could easily avoid this by keeping the pig full every time you pour lead. So you empty the pig by 80-70%, so there would be still enough lead for the new lead to smelt fast enough. You could also use a second lead heater and pour it in after emptying the pig. I dont know how long it takes to smelt a pig of lead, but i think the lead in the cast would still be hot enough to bind with the new lead.
just my opinion, i dont have any experience with pouring lead.
Cast a new one Leo you've come this far why worry for evermore about the cracks in the keel
Add 2% antimony to produce a stronger keel/stiffer backbone for the yacht. That used to be done to make the lead ballast keel into an actual structural member of a boat, which could even be rabbeted to take the garboards.
Lead is an extremely ductile metal. Cracks and stress fractures are not as significant and issue as with aluminium or steel.
Also, the lead keel doesn't contribute massively to the structural integrity of the vessel as evidenced by the fact that they were able to completely detach it from the boat and just support the keel timbers on the ends without having to worry about the boat getting seriously damaged.
Recasting the whole would be ideal, but the equipment they would have to build would just for one job, the time it would take not to mention the task of moving new keel into place. Casting it underneath the boat wouldn't be good as the prolonged heat from several tonnes of lead might make the timber bend.
Fix it, fair it, pour a new separate piece to put on top and then bolt through them both. Keeps the "original" ballast keel and solves all the problems of melting it with the overpour.
@@nrml76 They've got 2 years lol
I agree, cast a new one. You're still using the same lead. The thought of having part of the keel fall off would be always on my mind.
Blacksmith here. While casting is not my specialty, I do my share of casting. You really need to recast it. Casting on top of existing lead creates a high risk of delamination. Since this is a ballast system, the 2 leads will also have different weights/masses. So if you need to know those numbers for balance calculations, you need a uniform product.
The other input for the hydrostatics calculations are imprecise enough that this isn't a concern. So it's mainly a structural concern.
A complete open top mold around the old keel is the best solution. Take the contact surface to melting temp (without melting) and add molten lead on top. The layering of the lead was due to cooling time difference between keel and molten lead. Acceptable.
@@sysfx I think that this is the best compromise between recasting the entire mass of lead. I likely would heat the original to melting and pour the additional lead on this for a homogenous structure.
I agree with this guy 100%
Don't take chances, you've been top quality so far, . The only thing I would consider is adding a strep plate shoe to the bottom of the lead to protect it it youre grounded on low tide and or rocks.
I agree ... it would be potentially catastrophic if layers of the keel started delaminating and falling off the bottom of the boat while it was sailing at speed.
My opinion: Chop up and recast. You haven’t compromised on anything so far. Don’t start with this.
Yeah, but instead of chopping it up, how epic would it be to suspend it from a crane and slowly lower it into an enormous pig all in one piece?
Actually, if you just lowered it down an angled sled slowly you wouldn't need a carne and would have really good control over it from a distance without having to cut it. Now that they've moved the boat, they will probably cut the ballast keel for transport, though.
If it were me, if I didn’t recast the keel, it would always be there in my mind that I could have done it better and a slight worry that a good bump could comprise it. You only get one chance to do this.
Good luck. Love the project
This keel has been perfectly good for 100 years,it may be full of cavities.
I guess that means it did its job despite that possibility
I think the guy that polished all those bronze floors in the bilges, despite the fact they would never see the light of day again, knows what he really wants to do with the keel.
The integrity of Tally Ho will come from the next 100 years of her sailing around the world, not trying to salvage parts of her that may force her out of water to be fixed yet again. I say recast it so she can get back to where she belongs, wind in her sails.
HERE HERE!
Agreed… if you DO recast the original, it’s still the original lead in the keel… TBH that sounds like the way to go, from my view. I’d certainly sleep aboard happier with a solid 1 piece ballast keel.
Port Townsend has a large community of folks who are “more traditional than thou”. It’s more important that it’s a solid cast, than that it’s “original”. Don’t pay attention to what those folks say.
You’ve done an amazing lifetime achievement with Tally Ho.
When I was around 10 years old , My Dad and Uncle where melting lead in a cast iron bath tub for my uncles yacht keel. Had a problem when the jack holding the plug let go and all the lead flowed down the Lawn like a river. I am pretty sure that was the first time I heard the f word All they could do was have a beer let it cool down and start again the following week end. I am 65 so it was around 55 years ago, My Uncle still owns and sails the 35 ft yacht he built in his back yard.
Re-cast the keel Leo, the rest of this boat has been built to the highest standards of craftsmanship and getting this far has been a monumental achievement, it will always be on your mind because you wont be happy with a 'hotch potch' keel. Good luck next cast to you all.
Plus Tally Ho's original lead will still be there, just diluted but made better. Also the only time it will be seen is when she's on dry dock.
you can dig a hole in the ground for your mould. you can use wood for your form or sheet metal that has been welded together. Sheet metal will be easier to shape and the ground will be the support needed. Make sure you put a lifting system under your mould so it can be lifted back into place. Chains and a winch system from both sides of the boat with cables to lift it up to the bottom would probably work. just a couple of "Heavy" duty winches with that kind of weight. Good Luck
Recast seems to be the right way to do it. I think, with all the work put into TallyHo, it would be the best option to recast the keel. Not a ship builder, but it's important to do it right.
I couldn’t agree more. Its just more refining and advancing all of the things you have already done!
I agree re-casting is the best as far as quality. The amount of work would be massive.
head says - build a new one, heart says - patch up the old one. Heads wins. The ads outweigh the cons imo.
I’d sea trial if before I added ballast
As for originality, we can tolerate grades of originality, right?
Reuse, repair, recycle, renew.
Reusing parts is best for originality.
Patching up the parts is the next best thing.
But I argue some originality is kept when you recycle.
Before you renew something entirely.
So recycling has the lowest grade of originality, but its still somewhat original.
Recycle the keel.
New keel !!!
@@TheREALLibertyOrDeath The math has been done - leo knows what weight he needs, within reasonable margins/trimming and fairing. There will still be some space under deck, but not as much, as leo wants 6'' clear, its all good man :) - far better to have the extra ballast as low as possible. a sea trial is inevitable however - cant fkn wait!
It's the original lead keel, just molded into a better shape. Just recast it in the shape you need.
I think this might be a blessing in disguise, Leo. It wasn't meant to be. Recast the whole keel.
I agree. Having it structurally sound is more important that trying to keep it original. If it was not going to be an actual working boat then it wouldn't make much difference. However since you plan to sail it then I would definitely go with strength over originality. Besides who's going to see it.:)
I vote for that too.
It would still be the same lead, it would just be reshaped... no different than reshaping the "Transom" of Tally Ho.
Recast the keel, makes some worries now but saves a lot in the future. You already changed so much material and already recasted parts that the original keel is not worth it. It would be altered anyway by casting on top. And yeah, it would be most of the original lead....
Totally agree and you have already made the decision! :o)
Many years of Smelter experience in different metals says YES RECAST in a NEW MOLD is the only answer to the meticulous job you've done till now .
In fact l was waiting for this " Disaster " to happen but l couldn't shout out hard enough to stop you guys 😂😂.
Just one warning whenever casting molten metal is make 100 percent sure there's NO MOISTURE as it will make the metal EXPLODE .
When casting try and get your " PIG " mobile so as to spread the heat when poured along the length of the mold. You'll definitely end up with a better looking and stronger Keel .
Best wishes from South Africa.
@@peteturner8493 Pouring on top is also going to always create lamination layers that will delaminate from each other overtime as the layers expand and contract at different rates.. Unless he wants to keep it above 45° N. But, well that isn't even any kind of a guarantee with how ocean temperatures globally are trending. :(
I agree with recast a new keel. The safest and best option in the long run.
I agree but one thing to be aware is that this amount of lead would shrink a lot but not at thr sides mostly in the middle creating cavities, maybe would be better (if you go that rout ) to cast it in 2 or even 3 separate pours.
The consensus seems to be, "Recast the damn thing and let's get another great video out of it!" Love watching you and your team work out the problems
Tradition in the United States Navy is to use some of the steel from a ship of a given name in the new ship with the same name.
Don't forget to place two coins on the led keel before bolting it to the wood keel. One coin would be from the year the keel was originally laid and the second coin from this year.
@@SandBoxJohn I like the coin tradition
First of all: You are amazing shipbuilders; engaged, enthusiastic, talented and cooperative. The best „ingredients“ for success.
Second: This was not a disaster; much more a wake up call.
Lead, as all metals are quite complicated to handle and work with. Too many factors can influence the outcome.
Metallurgists would probably recommend to reuse all the lead, the one from the original keel too and cast a new one, - away from the ship’s hull.
A solid bloc can and would do the best work as a secure counter-weight.
It avoids nightmares.
KEEP IN MIND: THIS SHIP IS DESTINED TO GO INTO ROUGH SEAS.
Coraggio!
Paolo, Italy
Leo, I’ve added lead to a keel in the past. In retrospect, I should have cast a new one. The interface of the old and new lead did not meld interstitially. This leads to inherent weakness. I would recast. Future Leo will thank you…using original lead (as previous posters have suggested) lends authenticity.
Wow, somebody that has added lead to a keel stops by. I don't imagine there are very many people that have done that and one of them stops by. Very nice and thanks for the post.
@@davefoc Dave, it seemed appropriate that I inject my metallurgical experience. I’m sure there are others with vastly more knowledge.
Hi,
As a German civil engineer, I can only say that you must recast. Continuing from this point carries the risk that the two materials will not bond.
In addition, to avoid a strong cooling of the lead towards the edges, you should provide several feed points. Since I know neither the length nor the outside temperature or the planned pouring temperature, I can only assume on the basis of the "optical" length that you need at least 3, but better 4 feed points for the liquid lead.
For this, please get ideas from the bell casting, because here, too, several feed points are served from a melting furnace. In particular, the switching off or switching to other casting channels is a centuries-old and proven tradition in this branch of the trade and has been absolutely tried and tested.
I wish you much success with your project and please excuse my bad English.
Yes, just as shown in the documentary on the eight new bells for Notre Dame in Paris, cast in 2012 using that centuries-old technique in Normandy.
Your English is fine!
I know it's nothing to do with this subject but Busch beer is THE BEST fishing and boat beer so yea. :)
@@TermiteUSAYou are 100% correct, Keith. It has nothing to do with the subject!
Dem Ingenieur ist nichts zu schwör.
Busch Briegel as an old and experienced " Smelter ' l totally support your advice.
Oh, your English is hundred percent fine.
Hope Leo will listen.
Recast the whole keel, you want one solid homogeneous piece. You’ve gone the extra mile on the rest of this boat, don’t stop now. Only thing is your likely maybe under fire ban right now. Not not sure how you’ll get around that. Up here in BC we can’t ever think about causing any ignition sources right now.
it was POUR-PLANNING that did them in
@@dopeytripod pp
@@dopeytripod Good one Dad
Recast it. Preserving the keel's "original" state will be cold comfort if it falls off in the middle of the sea.
Are you sure it could ‘fall off’ what with bolting?
Leo, you've always struck me as a guy who when considering all the variables, goes with the strongest, safest, and most durable decision. I know you'll do the right thing and end up recasting the entire keel into a homogenous piece. You've never been scared of prep work to get it RIGHT.
Hope he considers the safety of himself and his crew a bit more as well, this setup looked kinda skechy.
Maybe you could elaborate? What was sketchy?
@@ledorf It was sketchy? He thought of pretty much any possible failure that this setup might have and made a fix for it. He didn't think of the failure that did happen but, nevertheless, still had a failsafe set in place for it.
@@ledorf What do you mean sketchy? What qualifications do you have or are you an armchair expert?
@@misterhope5241 Perhaps it's just a technique I've just never come across but casting a keel underneath the hull just seems like a lot of unnecessary risk for want of a large enough forklift to move the ballast keel after casting. If the worst happens you're not just fighting a fire, you're fighting a fire that's threatening the supports for the boat over your head.
I say: Tally-Ho has a new life ahead of her, the fact that her old keel has been melted into her new keel is irrelevant, she is still Tally-Ho but rebuilt by you and your team, with the soul of the thousands of us watching. Her new life should be the best she can have and a fractured, weakened keel doesn’t fit that. Ergo: re-pour. That’s my $7 worth of opinion.
Well said. I agree completely
"Smart Girl!"
While using the original keel is attractive to Tally Ho’s history, the structural integrity remains an issue. Recasting the entire keel, with Tally Ho’s lead makes more sense.
I agree structural integrity of the lead keel is paramount at this point. Yes more work to do it but you'll eliminate the existing cracks and have a stronger keel.
Lead has very little strength.
So many sat recast!!
None of you would do it if the job and cost was yours
I agree, specifically because the area in which the water jetting/ gouging of the ballast keel occurred was in the center of the ballast keel and the depth to which the gouging occurred look to be a significant percentage of the total thickness of the keel. You can fill this gouge with more lead but it will not bond properly to the sub layer of ballast keel and this will cause structural loss of the keel and will be a significant weak point where future fracturing may occur.
Absolutely. The *spirit* of Tally Ho is what is important. Authenticity won't help you in the middle of the ocean. In terms of the work involved: you have come this far and have so much money and time into everything above the keel. Do the job right. You and Tally Ho will thank yourself later. New tires are better and safer than re-treads.
of all of you who have commented on what is the "right" way to do it, I wonder how many of you have actual experience casting lead?
Yay Leo,
You’ve had enough advice, I only have encouragement. 100 episodes later I feel you have taught me much more than boat construction. Carry on!
Are you ready to be the next owner of a boat that we all watch you restore? You can do it! :)
It's still the original keel. Your just rearranging the molecules 😃
Yes! the original keel was "refashioned" to compensate for the design changes to the rigging from 1910. It's like a historic property using reclaimed lumber for repairs. No one would scoff at that repair.
Lead is a substance that contains only one type of atom, with the highest atomic number of any stable element, so no molecules. ;)
@@amonynous9041 I think you'll find the outside is lead oxide and there are many impurities. That's a free science lesson for you.
@@amonynous9041 Besides lead there is bound to be tin, antimony and arsenic in that keel already...
Depleted uranium is 2x as heavy. Only snag is the active stuff is merely reduced not removed.
You've done so much work to make this boat "bullet proof" So far the ballast keel seems to be the only suspect part of the boat. Re-cast the thing and keep her bullet proof. Good luck man.
I tend to agree with your statement. They have put this much time, effort, patience and craftsmanship into the Tally Ho to this point. While the original ballast keel may have some sentimental value and would be a neat talking point, peace of mind knowing it was just as solid as the rest of the boat is priceless and would be a comforting thought. The only thing you'll scrap is any feelings of doubt.
Leo, Don't get too hung-up on using the original ballast keel. Recasting it is the right thing to do.
And it is the original keel. Only reformed into a complete one.
The list of yachts lost due to ballast keel total failure or partial keel failure, from many reasons, is not small. Recast so Tally Ho remains sound well into the future.
And don’t do it under the boat. Moving it will be a pain, but much much less to go wrong.
Think of it as reforging Andúril
Think 1910, had it returned to the original builders for modification or repair, I think they would have remolded and made the additions or subtractions as necessary. Use what you have ,Start from where you are. Be Safe most of all. Love the vids.
Leo, give yourself the permission to re-cast the entire ballast keel. It is damaged in enough areas and ways that it makes sense. Also, re-casting will fit the spirit of everything else you've done to the boat up to this point. You have made decisions up to now in the interest of making that boat as durable and long lasting as it can be. It makes no sense to then bolt on a cracked, two piece and patched ballast keel. This boat DESERVES her lead re-cast.
Re-cast it. It's another part of Tally Ho's story - the fact that it's the same keel just re-cast with another few shipwrights' knowledge and skill in it is a great thing in my mind.
Don't take the risk with some half-assed hodge podge of a fix, just re-cast it properly.
Yes, and throw an original brass fitting into the molten led for prosperity
that would be half-arsed, after all she's English.
@@johnkey1682 You are indeed correct good sir! Perhaps I should amend my statement.
@@Joe-xq3zu :-)
I’m a builder in Sydney Leo. I’ve realised the only cost of safety is time. Think strategic safety of all those who will sail with Tally Ho over the next 100 years and you’ll arrive at the only decision option you know you have to take.
Well said and I'm sure Leo will come to the same conclusion
In buying tools there is sort of a saying that goes, "buy once, cry once". This situation is ac little different but I think I agree with most others, if it is worth doing, it's worth doing right. If you presume you will own this boat for the next couple decades, would you feel better, with your significant other and perhaps children in the middle of the Atlantic having done it one way or the other. In think you will find your answer. Besides when you spoke of replacing all the steel with brass, using the original brass and adding to it to have stiff recast, I thought it's pretty cool that the original material metals that you could recast would still be there. It's still original metal, just added more to it. And this is the same if you recast or if you cast on top.
I love when someone explains something so well that the entire comments section is in agreement.
Speaking as someone who has been down this very route with my previous boat, I can say that, in my experience, adding the extra lead to the original keel doesn't really work that well. No matter what you do, the original keel deforms from the heat differential top to bottom (mine was 8" deep) and the new lead doesn't bond well to the old as you have already identified.
Recasting is the better option since you have already identified problems with the original keel and especially in light of your original decision to remake the centreline timbers for pretty much the same reason, that of peace of mind in the future.
However, it is essential that you recast in one continuous pour, so your pig just isn't going to be big enough to hold the tonnage of lead. Nor is your wooden form going to be strong enough, the heat from the lead softens the wood (like steaming timbers) and your shape comes out all wrong under the pressure of the weight of lead.
For our second attempt we dug a pit, put several inches of dry sand at the bottom, placed the wooden form into the pit on top of the sand and then rammed sand around the sides the pit (like the bronze casting) to reinforce the sides. Our spigot had a Tee outlet so that the lead spewed out in opposite directions and not straight down (your problem) but splash back from this was an issue. However, our keel was only 3 tons.
We did, however, forget that we needed to lift the new keel out of the pit and had to dig several trenches under the keel to allow strops to be passed under it for the crane to lift it. This worked except that we didn't use enough strops to support the keel and it bent as it was lifted and we had a difficult job to bend it straight again.
Other sailors I know used a concrete trough to prevent the wood form deforming and placed this trough (with the wooden former inside) on a number of breeze blocks so that the keel did not need to be lifted. However, getting the concrete off again was a pain.
Don't try to construct a form out of steel, it buckles under the heat of the lead. I saw this happen at the lead casting foundry in Malta years ago.
I look forward to your finding a good solution to this.
Good luck.
Excellent and most helpful comment Sir!
nothing more valuable than experience!
I think this comment sums it up pretty well.
This sounds Ike a knowledge
knowledgeable dissertation on the subject.
My opinion is worth nothing as I am not a boat builder nor smelter of lead but understand a bit of chemistry. Sand pit casting away from your boat sounds best for a total recast to meld all lead
together. Purity/temp of the lead seems critical. I have greatly enjoyed following your work on Tally Ho for a long while admiring your skills and tenacity while problem solving along the way...whether it is tool modification, people managing, project managing or political roadblock juggling.
From my experience, this will work. I built a reinforced plaster mold and buried in packed sand. It makes take a couple pigs or perhaps 3 pigs. Use sand channels for filling
Reading down through the comments, it's pretty clear the vote is to cast a whole keel. I'd add to that one thing. Port Townsend has a foundry you have used and seemed quite happy with. The bronze sure turned out beautiful. Take your measurements and lead into town and have it done completely professionally. They have the kilns to melt the quantity and quality you want in one go.
An added advantage, since you'll be moving the boat to Port Townsend anyway, is that the boat will be a much lighter load when it's moved. The renewed original keel will be in one whole piece and waiting for the boat to arrive.
@@paulshouse524 The boat has already been moved as of two days ago, according to the instagram page.
@@lucdamiani News! Thanks, I don't Insta-book.
I wonder if it's easier to cast the keel on-site or to cast it in the foundry and then to haul the 8-ton thing to the boat.
@@CR-eo2ts same here so thanks for the news
I restore classic cars professionally. And while its not the very same thing as this is - there are similarities. One thing I have noticed is the owners reluctance to doing bigger jobs when a restoration is nearing its completion. You discover something that really needs attention. But with the goal in sight, it is very tempting to make a soso repair, and get on with it. Very often, it is one of those soso jobs that bite you in the back later.
From a work-flow-perspective, I really think this project benefitted from you setting the bar high already from the outset. My feeling is that with the early decision taken to more or less build the boat again, the decisions along the way has come naturally to you. I think the decision you are about to take now should follow in linewith all the other ones. If there are questions as to if the balast keel will be a future problem - then take the long road as you have done with all else.
my thoughts exactly - Leo - You havent taken a short cut yet - and somehow I don't see you starting now
spraying that water around the lead was SUPER DANGEROUS
My first thoughts was all that molten lead without any type of moisture control... then they brought out the water hose!
Totally agree!! I cringed and feared the worst when he mentioned that he watered down the area. I did my apprenticeship in a lead and zinc refinery and I I can tell you if molten lead or zinc hits a small puddle of water it explodes ferociously and molten hot droplets go everywhere. Old blokes used to tell me never turn your back if this happens, cause generally you wear your PPE (faces shields, leather aprons etc) on your front and your back is generally exposed and there have been a lot of serious burns on peoples backs because of the natural reaction to turn away when something like that happens.
Recasting seems to be the most sensible option, especially when considering the longevity of the boat - even the purists couldn't argue that it isn't the same material and you don't want to be regretting it further down the line. Digging a pit to put the form in also makes sense as the lead will have nowhere to go should the mold fail. Really interesting episode, as always!
Lol, literally none of the rest of the original boat exists, except in the scrap pile. I think purists would be more bothered by that 🤣.
@@cgln8760 the transom lives on
@@cgln8760 This then begs the question is the boat still Tally Ho? Leo should make a dinghy out of Tally Ho's scrap wood so she still lives on, albeit as a smaller vessel.
If anyone feels necessary to criticize the build because of the keel casting then they can be dismissed as the fools they are. It would be like saying that the sails aren't original. Or the captain. Or the builder. Or the lumber.
@@ariiiiigold if I have a broom that is over 20 years old, and I have changed the head 15 times, and the handle 10 times, is it the same broom? Credit to trigger.
While not “put to a vote”, I cast mine on the side of a complete recast. We know you’re a stickler for quality of craftsmanship, and the assurance of integrity with a “new”, truly monolithic ballast keel speaks for itself. I’m certain that this is the decision you’ve already arrived at. The fact that it’s mostly original lead IS good enough.
A vote??? Why not let the Senate decide on it?
I think Leo can read your ideas and make his OWN decision .
@@jiefflerenard1228 i think he should flip a coin, or ask the magic 8 ball. Whatever he decides, i just hope it displeases *you* , Mr interwebz people correction guy.
What if the ballast keel was segmented and cast as 3-4 units for to aft? When bolted on all would be well as they are not structural.
A couple of weeks to re-cast now is a small price to pay for several decades of peace of mind under sail. I’m sure Albert would concur; besides the original keel was not the best casting.
Would also be able to cast it in the ground so they wouldn’t have to worry about leaks.
@@oldmanx1234 I don't think Albert was the boat builder...he was the designer.
@@stevenvee11 Reportedly there was a guy in the USA that did exactly that and was surprised when the 7 ton of lead he poured simply disappeared. Turns out he had very neatly filled a maze of Gopher burrows under his pour. It took him weeks to dig the lead out.
@@bobdylan7120 interesting. That’s why I would place a form in the ground before pouring.
At least he got gopher alloyed lead out of it
Experience is something you get right after you need it.
Your quote? Great one.
which is why you should always talk to a professional FIRST. saves you loads of time in the end, and perhaps saves lives.
@@thomasneal9291 Only the unexperienced have experience after they need it. The experienced have it before.
at that Point, I feel like trying to repair that keel ballast for the sake of it being original is a decision that will come back to bite you in the ass. you already changed most of the original wood of the boat for new safe and sound wood, I think you should treat that part the same way, rebuild it from scratch to have a boat that will survive for another 100 years.
Sound mechanical components beats nostalgia every single time.
Forget "peace of mind." Forget "authenticity." As the restorer and eventual captain of Tally Ho, your first duty is the seaworthiness of the vessel. It would be cold comfort to the families of someone lost to a sunken Tally Ho that their loved one perished aboard an authentic vessel. Re-cast the keel. You owe that level of caution and professionalism to this boat's passengers and those of every other vessel around her.
I couldn't have said it better.
My thought also.
tldr: don’t sacrifice safety to nostalgia.
This. The thought of sailing in this vessel with a compromised keel would keep me up at night.
Given the choice between originality and safety and ability to sleep at night, always always go with safety and a good night’s sleep. Recast it. Also consider adding a little antimony (from recycled battery plates) to increase the strength of the lead. The Lead/Antimony alloy will make it stronger, without adversely affecting its density.
I’d vote for recasting the whole keel. It’s still the original material, so you’d retain some history, but you’d have peace of mind.
Agreed. My thoughts regarding using the original keel with 'some' adjustment is that it's rather moot/irrelevant considering how much new material has gone into the rest of the boat and absolutely not worth sacrificing the current outstanding overall quality for.
One of the most satisfying parts of watching this project (for me) is seeing everything done with such a high degree of quality without corners cut or compromises and compromising on the the keel would kind of ruin that (which is sadly so rare in our world). It would always be there, not as good as everything else. "Boat is of utmost quality, except the keel..." - sad when there's so much work already gone into achieving the high standard you have.
GL with whatever you decide & thanks for the vids.
Totally agree! Better be safe than be able to say that its the original keel. Everyone has put in so much time and work, I would do it the right way, even if it takes more time
The last thing you want to be worrying about when you’re crossing the Atlantic and it’s blowing 50 kts…
the point about how much other "new" material has gone into her already, is a valid one. You've already got the Ship of Theseus as is. will one more piece really make that much difference?
Would it also not be easier to move her before you attach the keel, as that would be significantly less weight to move, and then cast at the yard where they have better facilities to do so?
Don't know if it's workable, but can you do a "filled-casting"type thing, .. chunk up the old keel into sections, ... build your mold and set the old pieces in place (possibly with a few bronze rods connecting them but leave several inches between each piece. let the new poured lead surround each and they act as "filler" bits (much like what is done when reusing old silicon molding bits to fill "dead space" in a new mold) If the incoming lead is hot enough to melt into the body of a solid keel, it should be plenty hot enough to get good fusing to the smaller pieces, and if they're encased, and strung with bronze rods, the whole thing should be very stable. ....
Though if you're going to melt the whole thing, may as well do it all.....
@@timhyatt9185 I like the idea about moving it first then casting somewhere with better facilities providing the keel is not useful for structural support or protection during the move. It may be.
You said it yourself Leo; “peace of mind” for Tally Ho’s future owners.
Albert Strange already has a massive smile on his face as he looks down on you guys and the work you have accomplished.
Remember Leo, “There are no shortcuts in the quest for perfection”.
Press on with pride.
with all the work done, close 'nough is good 'nough , is not the way to go
Don’t spoil the ship for a ha’p’orth of tar...recast the keel.
Your key question must be safety and longevity (which is tied to safety). Can you trust that old keel - knowing as you do that there are flaws, and that you almost certainly haven't found them all. So, I strong reiterate @certaintngs2000: don't spoil the ship.
Edit: The points below about the correct alloy composition seem vital also. Is that pig lead you melted correct?
Excellent ... Had to look that one up. Apparently originally referred to applying tar to sores on a sheep's hide. Whodathunkit.
A few things that would help:
1) less positive head pressure- shorten the legs on the pig
2) use a "T" fitting with two pipes, one going fore and one going aft, with holes drilled in the bottom every two feet or so to dispense lead, with the ends capped
3) use small peaked diverters made of steel sheet underneath the outlets, to convert downward momentum into lateral momentum. They will help get the lead to the ends of the mold before solidifying and ensure that molten lead isn't jetting straight downward.
4) make a bed of sand underneath the keel block, put fire cloth on top, and then lower the keel block onto it, so that it settles into it and makes a "mold" of itself. Then, any leaking lead will have nowhere to go, and will just pool at the bottom of the keel ballast where it's resting against the cloth and do nothing but add a thin layer of fresh lead AROUND the original block, encapsulating it (this method would also help normalize any internal stresses in the ballast, and keep it from cooling too fast and forming cracks)
Great. First you make a watertight hull. Then comes the lead and.. you suggest drilling holes in a perfect hull. No wonder there are so many ships on the bottom of the ocean. Perforate your hull, the bilge water can run out below the waterline, provided the air pressure is high enough.
@@voornaam3191 uhh....
1) the only drilling referenced in my comment was in regards to the bottom of the transverse pipes that would distribute new lead along the keel
2) ...you realize that lead ballast is usually attached to the hull with through-bolts, right? 🤣
Maybe learn the language you're trying to argue in, next time.
Like the others, my vote is recast with the old lead. Church bells are recast when they crack. No-one objects to that.
Good you were well prepared.
You’ve done so much of this boat in the “right way”. I think you need to recast the whole thing.
it was POUR-PLANNING that did them in
Please recast , make it right !
No doubt this "failure" was a blessing in disguise. Remember when you discovered a flaw in some of the deck beams, you replaced them! There is no question you will recast the keel.
The pluses and minuses, to continue or recast, added up to recast as you went through the options. Of course the dark cloud on your mind is that agreement with the town to get the boat moved ASAP.
Still, while you probably could overcome the pour issues and finish adding the additional lead to the old keel, you may never know the extent of the issues with the old keel. I suspect that when the old keel is cut up, you will find more reasons to say "thank goodness I chose to recast this keel"!
Having spent 40+ years as an aerospace casting engineer, watching this was painful. Since this is my third trip through all the videos, I know it all works out in the end. They got themselves a casting engineer. Imagine.
No hodgpodges for the Tally Ho! Recast sounds like the solution that would be the safest! It was an excellent try though! Kudos to the whole team! Glad no one was hurt!
If the "pig" still has quite a bit of lead in it then you need to be careful reheating. During solidification it will have taken 'feed' metal and could be very snug in the barrel. During heating it will expand of course but worse if it melts under the surface, i.e. from the bottom where you're heating it, then that liquid will expand significantly and you'll have molten lead under very high pressure until eventually the top layer bung gives way. If you have a shallow lead slug and the top can move then you're OK but if the lead is at the vertical faces then you're in real trouble. I worked in a foundry. Heating even partially full pots is a no-no.
Also don't let any water into the pig !!!!!
One of the best advises so far.
Could he drill down through the lead to the bottom of the pig in a few places to allow the molten lead an escape or convection corridor? My apologies if this is a silly idea, I’ve never poured that much lead at once or tried reheating a half full pig…..and I’ll wager I’ll never type that sentence again…lol.
@@larrimos I think the easiest is just to take a smaller half drum, put it in the pig, and start a fire in it. Put the steel "shield" you cut out earlier loosely on top to keep the heat in and melt it from the top.
@noel hopley Leo and I are discussing the problem. At least he sees the danger and we've managed to avert what could have been a nasty incident.
Keeping the “spirit” of the Tally Ho has been, in my opinion, the important consideration, not trying to reuse the actual lumber or sails or ropes or braces. So recast the entire thing and know that it’s nice that you can recycle the lead.
Leo
Some (most?) of the lead ingots (ballast) you removed from inside the boat will have originally been intended as moveable ballast.
The ballast was deliberately intended to be moveable so that the owner of "Tally Ho" could adjust her fore and aft trim to optimise her sailing abilities. Moving a 300 kg of lead ingots about is much easier than moving many 10s of cubic metres of stores to achieve the same outcome.
Using the "spare" lead to add mass to the keel presupposes that your rebuilt "Tally Ho" is already at optimal trim.
However, the optimal trim for "Tally Ho" will be a moveable feast that depends on the sea state and wind direction and what is loaded into the hull.
Ian Neuhaus
As an engineer, there is only one option id take and thats recast it. peace of mind is everything both in the risk involved in working with fire and hot metal near the boat and also at sea knowing the ballast hasnt got the structural integrity it should. I think now is not the time to spoil the ship for a ha'pence worth of tar . Fantastic project Leo .i follow it enthusiastically :)
Hi
Yes. Especially because you risk the 2 layers of lead not properly joining otherwise and falling apart, which was my main concern. You already see the top layer delaminating after the pour. Get some play sand and mix it with oil to make casting sand. Then make a giant sand mold and cast 1 giant piece.
Fractures in any metal never heal themselves and are rarely stopped, I'd bet if you could talk to the original builders they would say pour it new.
Not in hearts either....
There is only one correct way, particularly as the existing keel has defects and may have further unidentified internal damage. Cut it up and have a professional foundry recast it in a new mould.
It also provides the opportunity to use current design technology to maximize the actual shape and disposition of the ballast, possibly making it all external.
I like your answer, good way to put it.
Your bronze foundry should have no problems with making a sand mold and casting the new keel. Doing it yourself would mean you'll need massive kettle to melt all that lead in. Sort of like half an industrial propane tank.
But suppose you'd dig a long hole in the ground and line it with greensand or another kind of form sand, it would be quite straightforward to cast a new keel I'd think
I think we can trust Leo to sort it out.
The old keel lasted 100 years. I don’t think there’s a problem with it’s composition. If there were any issues this keel would have been toast many decades ago. Just touch it up and reinforce where necessary. It will last another hundred years.
@@09conrado needs to be dug out and balanced properly as not to make it distort. It'd be what, 7-8 tonnes? Doing so alone with no cranes etc seems in lack of words, foolish. I'd rather support him more if the question was asked and a foundry do all of it.
Have been following Acorn to Arabella from the beginning. I remember when they poured their Entire kill in a mold in the ground. This way you can get it just the way you want it. Its more work but in the long run it seems worth it. I admire your first attempt. It was well worth the effort and you learned a lot. So like other posts have stated. Start from scratch and Re-Cast the whole thing. Which ever way you decide to go. I know you will get it worked out.
Its the same lead, just with a facelift, I would go for a recast - Fit and forget, anything else is a concern.
I would recast. I've never regretted doing extra work to do something right.
True, and far too many times have I regretted not doing the extra work when things fail 😆
Recasting the whole thing feels like the better and safer option now.
It'd be my preferred solution to, casting a new keel. One big question comes with this solution : are they able to smelt enough lead and fast enough. The Pig had enough capacity to add to the existing keel, but does it have enough capacity to cast a complete new keel? I guess they ought to look into this question and probably make a bigger Pig too.
Peace of mind is priceless, I agree wholeheartedly. Plus, for originality there's the transom already 😂
Although historic precedence is valuable, the safety and quality of the craftsmanship is invaluable for the future life of the boat
I'm an electrical engineer with 35 years in industry. My mentor when I was just out of school taught me many lessons but one them them stuck the most. Short cuts lead to long solutions. Id recommend recasting, Leo.
This whole journey has been honoring the legacy of the boat. Recasting doesn't change that.
And seems like it's best for the longevity of the boat.
EDIT: Forgive my mistake in referring to Tally Ho as a boat instead of a ship
Agree Dan. The Keel is still original :)
@@stevewaterhouse3025 ditto!
Yes, totally agree!
I agree. I think it's about mixing the traditional with the modern. It's Tally Ho's 100 year old lead with today's craftsman's sweat. She may very well have been on her way to being forgotten, but now her story goes on. I love everything about this project, especially the hard working people who make it happen.
Leo, I do believe Dan is correct. She certainly does not have her original planking, but her shape is unchanged. I’m uncertain if there is any original wood (aside from the transom), but I know all of the bronze bits are new, right down to her fastenings. Yet she is undoubtedly still Tally Ho. Please continue to honor what you have done for the rest of the vessel and continue that right way through from truck to keel.
Recast. It’s still grandpa’s axe even when you replace the handle 12 times and the head 5. You can use the lead from the original and preserve the legacy without the problems. You’ve used new wood and brass without concern, recasting isn’t cheating in any way.
Very good arguments of Eric and Walden for recasting. I would not hesitate to choose this solution!
@@dorthyariaens5516 Eric Cartman?
In the UK it is known as Triggers broom (Only fools and horses, BBC TV)
Hi Leo,
It seems, when you look at the amount of work that you have done to restore the boat, that recasting the original keel lead into a new form which would perfectly fit the keel of the boat in its restored form without any flaws in the metal would be true to the spirit of what you have been working towards as an end goal: Restore Tally Ho! to its original form as closely as possible to the original boat. Note that you were already changing the keel configuration and weight so this approach seems all the more appropriate.
Good luck the rest of the way. We're looking forward to seeing Tally Ho! underway.
I believe that recasting the new keel using the old lead is still keeping with the spirit of the boat while upgrading to better structure overall. Think of it as giving the keel a full makeover. If you are thinking metaphysically about it, the old keel will appreciate the rejuvenation, preparing it for the next journey.
I kinda remember a stern being redone, too. Tally Ho will still be Tally Ho
The boat has had lots of stages of renovation and improvements. Anything leo does will still be tally ho, just another chapter in its history.
Agree
Whatever your choice, it still is the evaluation/growth of the boat called Tally Ho
What a journey! History in the making.
Great job Leo
Recast it. it is still the original keel just melted down and reformed due to damage from 100+ years of use. There is no shame in that. You havent cut corners yet, no reason to start now. Might also save a lot of work and headache in the long run
No worries-the man who never made a mistake never made anything. Good luck with the project.
As a kid, I worked at my grandfathers foundary in Portsmouth. They had a pit for casting lead keels, and I can remember some of the pores that occured. He also had a ferous (iron) foundary, that produced flying fifteen keels. It was a dirty world, that would not be tolerated today.
I would definitely recommend recasting. The vibration of transporting Tally Ho could cause the cracks to spread. It would be awful to put this much work in and have the the keel be a constant concern. Build Tally Ho the strongest you can.
Done this before. Re-cast it in four sections, with a steel dowel pin and hole setup so you can join them together. One long casting will crack for sure unless its being done in a foundry where you can control the temperature of the cooling lead.
a old, broken tool might be authentic but usless or even dangerous, i would'nt hesitate and recast the keel
I cannot wait for a full recast video, and please feel free to make it an hour long
Recast. It'll look good on camera, improve the boat, and it won't be a worry for another century.
Even tho safety third is a common meme, I feel it would be prudent to recast the lead ballast keel from scratch and leave nostalgia at the dock upon splash.
Recast the keel! It will be stronger and not a soul will ever see it
Leo, I have no idea what the best approach is to solving the keel challenge but I can tell you that I’d love to watch you design and pour a keel! Best of luck sir.
We can already see it in your eyes that you know what to do, just waiting for the emotion to catch up with the decision.
So many compliments on your thinking: safety, approach, consulting with pros, anticipating viewers’ thoughts. The hard work put into the videos yield exemplary results.
Hi Leo, my feeling is : that maybe this accident is in reality luck and a sign that the road need to be changed. Recasting the entire keel is, in my opinion, arguably the wisest solution and you certianly know it deep inside yourself. If it is a question of Heart or ethics, the soul of Tally Ho, in any case, is and will be allways be there. As since the begining the project, moreover we have all felt it through your videos. Philippe from Tahiti
my thoughts exactly.
@@jizzosh1233 I think that in life, there is always something positive, that's my philosophy. Luckily besides and that sometimes bad luck leads us in the right direction. Philippe
learning by doing...accept the failurs and prevent them at the next try...to avoid struggle by changing the way totaly is not practically in my opinion and that said, the recast isnt easy at all....that big of a cast has hides of failures on mass!!! If he struggles nearly as much as whith the repair/ build up and he dosent feel it right....i dunno if its worth it tbh :)
@@odoncoWe're just giving our opinions. Many people are speaking about recasting. But I think Leo is smart enough to sort it out. He has already demonstrated it before and I am sure he will know how to make the right décision as he feels. I trust him. Philippe
Seeing that shipsaw getting moved out of the way and the trench filled really goes to show the milestones where we're at. Amazing progress. I can't believe I've been privileged to have seen so much growth here.
The only original pieces of timber on the boat are in the transom. I don't see any problem with recasting the ballast keel using the original lead. You have brought this boat back to life, so do what you want !
I am reading the comments and agree completely, re- cast the whole ballasts keel. In the end it is the right thing to do. Look at it this way. You find solutions to any problem and it will take some time but the risk of finding more and more cracks and problems are inevitable and the old part of the ballast will further degrade in his quality. Start over again, make it on solid piece of lead with less work, less fairing, less shavings and dust and lead poisoning risk. It just make much more sense...
One thing I really appreciated about this video was the honesty of showing a major screw up. I have done a lot of repair work over the years and one of the things I'm grateful for is that there is nobody there videotaping as the repair job goes south.
Amen to that
I was about to type this :)
A builders nightmare.I fabricated a steel mould and made the “face” the bottom of the mould so in effect I poured the lead from the bottom. I was very fortunate to have a friend that is a tool and die maker and he had a computer program that could give me the exact weight required, 3500 Kgs. The best part was that when the keel was taken out of the mould the mating face was perfectly flat and my mastic bed was a consistent 2mm all the way around. The shrinkage cavity was then on the bottom of the keel and filling it was no big deal and best of all the majority of the keel was done in a single pour. I mixed antimony into the lead to give me a higher tensile strength in the lead. If I remember correctly it was about 15% but if you want to follow that route I am sure a metallurgist would help you with the best alloy.
Strengthen your arm Leo and I know you will do it right what ever you decided do. Thanks for a very informative program.
Sounds like a good idea 👍
Did anyone else think that there should have been a vent hole when he was trying to fill that void? By now no one knows what the inside of that mass of lead is shaped like.
Upside down..brilliant!❤
@@TermiteUSA I had a mould explode and spray me with molten metal one time. Ever since, I've been paranoid about moisture in the mould.
@@htarold they have enough flamers to dry that mold perfectly before the pour - as long as they don’t do it in the rain.
After reading many of the hundreds of comments, all I can offer as a non-sailor is this: My dad was in the US Navy in WW II and he told me stories of the terrible conditions on some of the seas they sailed. Stories about the waves so high that the ship would crest the wave and the propeller would come out of the water for a while and had to be shut down for fear of overspeeding. Opt for the recast and sleep well. We don't want to read about the demise of Tally Ho due to some freak storm mishap. Looking forward to EP 102.
I’d have to agree on recast, also you can still say it has the “original lead” in the keel.
I agree.
Reuse, repair, recycle, renew.
Repairing the keel keeps more originality than recycling the keel. But there is still some originality there if you use the same lead.
My vote cast a new one. That eliminates any and all issues with the old one,
I've been casting lead for many years and I've learned that recasting is always better than attempting to "Cap-Cast" any object. It never really become a homogenous mass.
Recasting the entire keel will be both stronger and allow for a better distribution of weight.
Your experience is worth a great deal.
I say recast the whole Keel, start over and do it the right way. way more work but the end result will be perfection!
As my old gran would say "Nobody died and nobody lost an eye".
You forgot - this is why we can’t have nice things 🤣
This small "disaster" is actually a blessing in disguise.
No blood, no foul.
I would definitely just recast the entire ballast keel, it allows you to easily fix any defects in the original as well as solves your burn through problem you have already encountered. Just dig a trench & build the mold in there so you don't have to worry about the mold bowing out & recast the whole ballast keel in one go. Originality shouldn't matter in an item that is basically sacrificial which lead keels are, they were never designed to last forever & are expected to be replaced as needed.
They were never designed to be sacrificial
@@EngineEngineer Would you say that they are expected to take a beating? I was wondering whether an I beam could be encapsulated in the lead to make it a stiffer stronger structure?
@@michaelwarlick4328 no not really, the external ballast keel does not normally present a problem in a wooden yacht, in fact it is usually the last thing left in good order. Tally ho had an abnormally hard life.
Recasting the Keel seems the most sensible Choice at this Point.
Using the original lead from the Keel is still the OG Keel. I suggest forming a new Keel.
I agree!
I'm restoring a BSA motorcycle and thought about short cutting the final stage what I got from this was this is the time to put the most effort into it.You can't say it's not the original ballast if you reuse it, your a boat builder the previous owners were not you know what you need to do I was taught by an old( bomber command) Englishman if the jobs worth doing it's worth doing it properly I'm thinking one single cast you should be very very proud of what you have achieved its out standing all of you
Recast the whole thing, safer in the long run all the way around.
my vote (and, yes, this is not a democracy{not sure what that means at the moment}) is to recast at or near the new site in a prepared in-ground sand form with as much of the original lead as possible, but with the addition of as much new lead as makes the seaworthiness optimal. it seems to me there are people in townsend that could make it relatively straightforward
Exactly what I was thinking. Trench, sand, place existing keel, pack sand around sides, hoist existing keel out and build the form sides up to desired height, then cut the keel up and pour (with a baffle this time to disperse the pressure) to form a newly formed keel from most of the original material.
I love it! Didn’t even think of this until now. Mercy Outboards used to use a technique called
“Lost Foam casting” to make their aluminum engine blocks. Why not employ that here as well??
Make a professional full cast mold and recast the whole keel with clean lead while using multiple sprues inlets
"T" to spread the lead and a steel receiver / splash guard at each outlet.
Recast the whole keel to avoid any cold joints, old cracks and doubts.
Prayers and our best wishes are with you.
Recasting might not avoid cold joins if not done properly. They have to be sure that the flow is sufficient for the lead to reach each end of the keel before solidifying. In case of insufficient flow, using multiple pigs might be necessary. Or it might be possible to keep the lead liquid with multiple torch’s used along the keel.
You could do a layered inset cast basically you make adapt holes (circular dovetails) on the original particularly in the weak sections. When poring have a slower output of Liquid lead. If possible use 2+ spouts.
Overall the adapt holds will help bond the old keel to the new addition. Pouring slowly will help mitigate the erosion. And lastly adding at least one more pipe will help distribute the lead more efficiently and to almost completely avoid any holes or voids being formed.
Sorry I know that was a little scattered but I use to work at a foundry doing rehabs on bells and old iron work. Those are just some of the small tips I learned along the way. I hope that helps