RAF Roundels, Not As British As You Thought!
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- Опубликовано: 21 дек 2023
- Have you ever wondered why RAF aircraft since the Great War have sported those rings of blue, white and red? If so, this is the video for you.
I go through the interesting history of how the design was first adopted and why as well as the changes the RAF roundel has undergone over the years.
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0:00 intro
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What language do they speak in British is it British when Scotland leaves the Union and Wales leaves the Union and England wonders why are they left They're going to turn to people like you for answers and you're going to have nothing to tell them. If you want to be trusted you should get basic geography correct because in 10 years time the table will be turned.
The Greek East India Company Empire, represented by the red, blue and white colours, claims dominion over UK, Holland, France, Russia and the USA, amongst many.
@@cymrucatNot really
The Scottish independence movement died with Nicola Sturgeon
The Welsh independence movement is a small force
I don’t understand the anger that comes from either tbh.
@@ARedux You're in the English which means you know nothing because your media doesn't allow you to know anything or you're a unionist and you want that to be true because it serves your masters interest. Either way you are objectively wrong Welsh independence numbers keep going up and Scottish independence keeps going up because the Westminster government keep defying our wishes the Israeli issue is only driving independence numbers up. Because we want to get away from your fascist imperialist b******* and the more you show that fascist imperialist b******* the more the independence numbers will go up. And when you're looking for those numbers and you can't find them you have your own country to bring because you should be fighting for your independence rather than marching to your Doom. What you see as anger is just giving a s*** something you will never understand unless you actually take responsibility for your own life rather than letting politicians and rob you and your neighbours.
Allied aircraft were given stripes on the wings and fuselage from D-day onward in the European theatre. At this point in the war stealth and camouflage were not important to the allies, but being downed by friendly fire was.
True and may I add that offensive forces are in less need of camouflage then defending forces and painting all Allied aircraft and vehicles Olive Green helped to identify them as Allied. Because the Germans used camouflage patterns on their vehicles and aircraft. So was it green, hold your fire. Was it is camo, fire at will.
That is why the Israeli Army still wears Olive Green uniforms for those 2 reasons.
The white stripes on the wings were, I think, added in a hurry just before D Day. There were so many planes to paint they gave up being careful and added the stripes using brooms! They must have looked rough close up but did the job!
@@scottlewisparsons9551 Yes, they planned this way in advance but kept it a secret until a couple days or so before the invasion. Didn't want the Germans doing the same thing. The stripes were meant to be temporary and we're to be applied in a hurry so they were actually applied using whitewash.
@@mardiffv.8775Don't think that was quite true. In 1944 the Americans were leaving their aircraft in bare aluminum, the British used a grey/green camouflage pattern on the top surfaces and grey undersides on their day fighters and bombers. There was a joke going around the German army in 1944/45 - if you see a plane, if it's silver, it's American, if it's grey it's British. If you can't see it at all it's Luftwaffe.
Shortly after D-Day the invasion stripes were removed from many aircraft once they started to be based in France
Here’s one for you. The alternative of 3 lions appears in the title text. That came from Richard the Lionheart. The 3 lions were one for each of the regions he ruled - England, Normandy and Acquitaine. So even that most “English” of symbols was originally two thirds French!
Am I right in thinking the three lions were originally leopards?
@@malcolmdelargy2667 I thought so too. That might be that the english just referred to them as leopards in the 1300s.
I think you mean France was once two thirds English. ;)
Yes, they are leopards but what I remember from Uni was that it all depended on the position of the symbol. Whether they were rampant or lying down determined which animal they were.
King Richard only spent 6 months in England. He preferred to live in Aquitane, south west France.
Aviation language we knicked from the French. Hanger is French for shed . Empennage for tail feathers, fuselage etc. I'm sure there are a lot more.
@thamesmud Not just aviation language. Everything military related is full of French words adopted by English speaking countries.
@@kimmoj2570 yes Colonel.
Ailerons is another French adopted word.
Mayday is from the french and ahs nothing to do with may. or the day.
@@seegurke93 Thanks, I did not know that.
My grandfather flew in WWI with the RFC, I’m only 27, so you can imagine how late he had my father; and how late my father had me - I am grateful to you for your teaching me the above about roundels and I shall always cherish it.
VIVE L'ENTENTE ! 🇫🇷 🇬🇧
Wow! I'm just a bit younger than you but my GREAT grandfather was BORN in 1914, when the WWI had started! He was just in time for a rough sequel tho.
What Americans called the "meatball" was
the hinomaru. (Perhaps this word should be capitalized.)
The literal meaning of hinomaru is "the
sun’s red disk". It was adopted as the standard roundel of Japan in 1918.
Yeah to us its a meatball, and if it has stripes its spaghetti and meatball
Hinomaru still used to this day - unlike the German Balkankreuz (and Italian Fasces).
@@timonsolus actually the Germans still use the iron cross on their vehicles
@@timonsolus @matthewdavid6134 Balkenkreuz obviously wasn't used 3:51 for reference. And it is the same today.
We're Americans, that means we speak Italian food
My dad was in the R.N. during World War II. At the beginning of the war they tended to shoot at anything with wings. I think by the end of the war things are become a bit more sophisticated, but they were still a bit trigger-happy.😁
The allies shot down their own C-47s during the Sicily landings because the pilots stupidly thought that their own troops would recognize their own aircraft. For D-Day they painted huge white stripes on all the airplanes for the same reason.
"let's revolt but not too excessively" That is my new favorite quote. ❤😂
Yes, that was very interesting. It explained alot of things. I often wondered why Battle Of Britain fighters had that yellow outer ring surrounding the normal roundel. I had also noticed how it changed in 1942. The USA also chose to modify their own aircraft markings to avoid confusing them with the Japanese red sun ones.
during WW2 in the pacific, Australians painted out the red part of the rounderl on aircraft, because at a distance, the red was mor visual, the blue and white, blening with clouds and sky, and there were a few occasions of aircraft with roundels being fired on by our own side, and a few shot down. (my father was in 76 Sqn RAAF).
Excellent video. I never realized the roundel underwent so many changes over time.
I always wondered if that was based on the French round, but never actually looked it up. Pretty cool. I also wondered why the never used the Union Jack or even St. George's cross. Great video...
The Union Jack was used by the Royal Flying Core in WW1 but it was repeatedly confused for the German Iron Cross and changed to the Roundel. At least that is what I read in a history book years ago.
Aside from the fact St George's cross is England and not the UK, I imagine painting a red cross on a white background on your combat aircraft might cause some legal/ethical issues.
Thanks for the video, amazing to see where it all came from.
Excellent video. Quite a confusing and complex history !
And I didn’t know at all about the WWI part, which was essential in the cocardes becoming such a standard !!
As of the French, we always sticked to the basic 3-color one, although a low visibility version recently came up. The size of it also varied quite a bit.
Good video and as one with a lifelong interest in aviation I was happy to have my knowledge of the history broadened.
Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I find it interesting that the RAAF, RCAF, RNZAF and the SAAF roundels (Kangaroo, Maple Leaf, Kiwi, and Springbok respectively) all can trace their roots back (indirectly) to the Napoleonic Wars cockade.
Thank you, as a scale model maker, I found this very interesting.
I've been wondering about this for ages.
Thanks for this.
Splendid, thanks for this, I'd never thought to ask.
Awesome and thanks: I learnt something new today! I know quite a bit about WW1 as it's one of my favorite rabbit holes, but I didn't know those bits of history on airplane markings and roundels 👍😁.
Great to meet you last year, your views are looking good 👌
That was an excellent presentation! Thank you for the wealth of information.
Happy Merry New Year!
Same to you!
Thanks for posting this video, well presented, produced and amazing interesting.
Thanks for watching Adam, I appreciate you saying that.
Very interesting! You learn something every day. I have subscribed keep up the good work!
Thanks, will do!
Very interesting. Nice bit of history. Thank you.
Excellent content. I've been an aviation enthusiast for almost fifty years. I didn't know any of this.
Just found this channel. Liked and subscribed. Great research with clear and fascinating presentation.
Thanks mate, I appreciate you watching the videos!
This is great. It helps to understand the history of flight a little bit more/
Was informative, learned something today, thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
As a former Brit (US citizen since 2020) and who tried to join the RAF after school,I loved this vid. Many thanks.
Interesting history of the changes of the RAF's roundals. Thanks for sharing 👍
Thanks for watching!
Excellent video - thank you!
Glad you liked it!
Thank you for this! A brilliant answer to a question I never thought to ask ... but should have :)
You're very welcome!
THANKS a nice - and very clear explanation
Glad it was helpful!
Awesome! Never thought about it before 👍👏👌
Very informative. Thanks
Famous tactically astute seizing of the empty Bastille prison ...
The early RAF Mustangs bore some more than slght resemblance to ME-109s which tended to make things a bit difficult for their pilots.
7:53 definetly the best looking one
Good video! I'd add that the USAAF changed their roundels after Pearl Harbor, to avoid confusion with the Japanese "meatball" & it's only recently I realized the SEAC had done the same thing.
The American national aircraft insignia changed multiple times in WW2. Including being left off both wings
Very interesting, thankyou
Very welcome
Excellent presentation, loved the Typhoon in BoB colours.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Early war (BoB) the RAF (and RN?) we’re on the defensive and aircraft were painted with half black and half white undersides in an effort to prevent “friendly fire” incidents, as they went onto the offensive over Europe undersides reverted to sky/ light grey.
Very interesting video, thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks for the excellent video!
Thanks for watching Brayden!
I've seen pictures of British war planes in the pacific theater with a white bar added. Similar to the bars of the US design. Probably to avoid friendly fire.
Yes, I believe that was the Fleet Air Arm.
Very Educational
Great video and well made. We'll done.
Thanks for watching!
Fascinating story, well presented, researched, and documented. (new subscriber, Virginia)
Glad you enjoyed it John!
The Philippines uses a red white and blue diamond with wings as roundels lol
Pretty cool ngl
This was pretty awesome thanks!
Glad you liked it!
Interesting Story, thanks for telling it. Often the explanation is so easy...
Thanks for listening
Can we do an episode on the RAAF having to get rid of the Red Kangaroo in WW2 because US airmen mistoke it for the Rising Sun Japanese Roundels
Great suggestion!
There you go. You just did it.
They shot at a RAAF PBY Catalina.
I believe the Aussies also painted white stars on their civilian DC3s being flown in Papua New Guinea.
The red kangaroo wasn’t adopted till 1956!
The early RFC was, in reality, a Gentleman’s Club. Then, about 1918, it got serious, then, with peace in sight, it became a career path for, in the main, unemployable drones, which it continued to be that Gentleman’s Club for unemployable drones until about half way through the battle for Britain, then it admitted the oinks, until peace was in sight, when it reverted to type.
It's "oik", old chap
Which is why they were pilots who were trained during National Service postwar. The interwar RAF was very small, but even so a goodly number of pilots were trained from non elite, although often 'middle class' backgrounds. From the mid 1930s pilot training hugely expanded as the UK rearmed. A large number of prewar pilots died in the first year of the war.
Oh yes,the oiks are disposable don't you know...Jeeves?! Where's my pipe,slippers and Scotch?!
First example off the top of my head of why your post is a massive oversimplification. Edward 'Mick' Mannock. His father, though from a wealthy family was an NCO in the British army. At the time of his death Mick Mannock held the VC, DSO with two bars and MC and bar. He was credited with 61 aerial victories. He started his WWI service as a Sergeant in the RAMC before transferring to the Royal Engineers as an officer cadet. He then transferred to the Royal Flying Corps and was commissioned as a second lieutenant in August 1916. Not exactly a 'Gentleman' in the sense you appear to be using.
Excellent video 👍
Thank you! Cheers!
Excellent explanation.
Glad you liked it
Great research, thanks 😊
Thanks for watching!
Very interesting, thanks a lot.
Glad you enjoyed it!
In Sheffield Record used the same blue for their tools.
BS381C 110 Roundel Blue - Record Vice Blue
as far as i was taught in school, 60 years ago, roundels go back centuries, and during the french revolution, they were called 'Cockades' and were flast ribbons sewn into circles, thous gathers centres, bur other wore flat disks painted as such.
I was taught it was a Symbol from Ancient times, to ward off evil..then adopted by different folk over the centuries..Good video..thanks for sharing..
Lovely, spot on. Nice to see some appreciation of the roundel, in all it's variations. I note that some aircraft seemed to have carried anachronistic or out-of-date roundels at various times in the early war years - much the same as some squadrons arranged their aircraft and squadron codes differently or in unusual sizes, so a roundel from one squadron to another might be a different size for the same type of aircraft. So it looks like there was a bit of squadron individuality as far as roundel regulations were concerned.
-
Maybe that explains the remarkable Spitfire MkIX flying with bizarrely-proportioned 'Type 2' upper-surface roundels on its wings? (MH434, squadron code ZD, aircraft code B).
Google it; it's really weird.
my Dad (RCAF WW2) considered our very similar roundels as "airborne bl**dy targets" and felt they endangered anyone flying with them on their a/c. He much preferred the monotone roundels now in common use by many countries - _"why give them some-at to shoot at?"_ RIP, Pops. Thank you for your Service.
All Wars are Fake. There are no combat veterans and proof of your CLAIMS are required.
My thoughts exactly. And thanks to your late father for his service.
Friendly fire was more of a problem than enemy fire back then (I don't have a time frame so yeah...), he probably has survivor bias
I'd prefer being shot down by an enemy than an ally
But at the end of the day, thank you for his service
I think the rounders for the RAAF and RNZAF are the best. It's hilarious to see a flightless bird or a bounding kangaroo on the side of a jet.
But are the roundels placed over any ultra vital part of the aircraft? What would these "targets" encourage enemy forces to fire at- the outer wings and the rear of the fuselage? Not particularly near the flight crew, engine, fuel or ammunition.
I always thought why the RAF roundel had similar colours to the French air force roundel. I got the answer today. Thanks to your video I got the answer.
Thank you for making this video because as a former rock ape anything to do with my RAF is worthy of praise and admiration. 🙏👍
Thanks for watching and for teaching me a new term I didn't know before.
Fascinating.
It would be interesting to see what other air forces use.
I guess nowadays, with modern technology, roundels are more symbolic than practical. Always intresting seeing how things like these evolve.
These days IFF accomplishes this task.
In the event of an avionics malfunction, the roundels would be a nice fall back plan for identification.
Fantastic video.
Glad you enjoyed it
Very interesting video. Thanks from Down Under.
Glad you enjoyed it
Great video. It just needs a follow-up about the post-war RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF and SAAF variants ;)
Good call!
Curiosity satiated. Well done!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you.
Chap. Of the original RFC squadrons No 1 flew balloons. The second, II (AC) Squadron, were the first to fly fixed wing aircraft.
A bit of a picky point but a detail any former member of II(AC) Squadron will gladly remind you of.
Now have a guess what I used to do in a former life?
Well said! As a proud ex member of II(AC) you are entirely correct. I’m very proud to have served on the oldest flying squadron in the world. Happy Christmas to you all.
I'm guessing, in a former life, you washed aeroplanes.
Thanks for the extra information.
I dearly wish the RAF and RN would at least return the red center and tail flash to the F-35s. It's really hard to imagine how that little bit of color would compromise stealth.
How widespread were the white squares on either side of roundels in the Pacific?
Paint does compromise stealth. Plus, the threat of being misidentified by ground forces and fired upon is no longer a threat. Modern fighters are meant to kill from beyond visual range, making markings obsolete.
@@frankleespeaking9519 Still, national pride is a thing, and visual ID is still helpful, even if just different nations operating F-35s together (Like trying to start an identical car, it would be embarrassing to walk up to an ally's aircraft)
@@petesheppard1709 Every f35 operator has unique logos and flashings on its aircraft. If you need a red white and blue bullseye on your aircraft to keep you from taking off in the wrong one, you probably shouldn’t be a fighter pilot.
@@frankleespeaking9519 🤣
Only the RAF use the tail flash, the FAA has never used it, even in WWII. However they do have the words “Royal Navy” on the fuselage.
Thank you so much for your wonderful videos!
I've been teaching design for almost twenty years now. That subject - the WW1 markings - emerged while introducing Branding/Corporate Identity to one of my classes. In a nut shell, the Entente/Allied Forces = Round shape markings, Central Powers (Ottomans and Bulgarians included) = Square* shape markings.
* German Crosses pained on square background; black cross with just white edging was not enough in battle. Ages ago I remember reading in some relevant book, that "...in battle it's rather shape than colour" I strongly agree!
Keep up with the well-documented work of you all! One of the best subscriptions in RUclips!
Thanks very much for watching!
Entente, not "ANTANT". Please.
Excellent. Every day's a school day!
No argument here. Just a Thanks for your telling the origins of the Roundel. Been wondering about it for a while. Very much appreciated. 🎉
Glad to help!
Very interesting.
I would be interested if you did something on the stranger camo colours of the RAF Like the few painted PRU pink for the high-altitude recon spit's
This is actually on my list. I started the research already so watch this space.
It wasn't just the Royal Flying Corps in WWI - the Royal Naval Air Service was heavily involved as well. The RAF was actually formed by merging the RFC and the RNAS together. Which went well...
Very interesting history, and great presentation. It could have taken lust little further by adding that: The RAAF have a red kangaroo(what else?) instead of a red dot, similarly the RNZAF have a Kiwi, and the RCAF have Maple Leaf (again in each case, what else?)
A good point. I didn't want to lump the RAAF, RNZAF or RCAF in with the RAF too much as they really deserve their own videos. But you're right, I should probably have mentioned those interesting national variations.
during exercise RED FLAG in the US this year a journo asked a british wing commander(?) was there much competition between the Ozzies and the Poms got the reply; "not really ,but we have lot fun watching the Ozzies and the Yanks trying to out do each other"@@CalibanRising
I think those were adopted in 1946 after WWII if memory serves
I think it may have been later than that @@gracchus7782
Thank you. I always wondered how those markings came about! Very interesting!
Glad you like them!
0:07 That's Candian actor Eric Peterson as Canadian WWI flyer Billy Bishop.
I love this stuff
Very interesting!
I think so too!
Wow I never knew it changed so much, and I always wondered about the weird blue roundel in the East. No I know!
An excellent video. Your research is impeccable. Except in the realm of the US Army Air Corp insignia. The USAAC used a similar design to the British roundel, except the middle white was in the shape of a star as on the US flag. However, when American aircraft arrived in Europe this was found confusing due to the similarity to the British roundel, so the red (outer) blue (middle) and white (inner) roundel was adopted from Feb 1918, which had been the Russian markings, but as of October 1917 they were no longer part of the conflict. The original “star” US insignia returned in 1919. Interestingly, this was only ever applied to the upper and lower wings, and never the fuselage.
Thanks for that extra information.
@@CalibanRising Actually the USAAC/USAAF/USAF markings have quote a history. Let me know and I can elaborate
In late 1944 the RAF 2nd Tactical Air Force in mainland Europe painted the yellow surround to the roundel on the wings.
I knew we took the french roundel and swapped it a round (No pun intended) However I didn't know it was because from a distance the red cross in the union flag looked like it may be the German cross . I thought it was just easier and quicker for the ground crew to sort out . Either way the markings didn't all ways help , they could hinder . Incessant flying over your own ground troops p*ssed poor old Tommy off because it alerted Fritz to their positions and pot shots were known to be taken
Good video
Quite interesting!
Glad you think so! Thanks for watching.
The low visibility roundel was used on the V-bomber fleet as it was less likely to absorb heat from a nuclear explosion which us why the bombers in the early days were painted in anti-flash white.
I think it's more like in Heraldry there are only 7 colours (5 colours +2 metals) so that any shield could be immediately recognised at a distance.
Roundels are easily distinguishable at the huge separation distances involved in flight and almost any other design will be too indistinguishable from all the others.
Keep it really simple and highly visible like the black and white invasion stripes on all allied aircraft for Operation Overlord.
That way pilots can concentrate on their sortie objectives not faffing about trying to work out who's who in a dogfight.
One fun thing about the "bullseye" roundel is that the Russians also used a similar one, with the same colors in yet another arrangement (white center, blue middle, red outer), and when the US joined the war, the US Army Air Service adorned their aircraft with a roundel using a similar arrangement to what the Russians had used (the Russians had dipped out of the war by the time US joined in). That evolved into the roundel used by the US Army Air Forces at the start of WWII which had a blue field with a white star with a red circle at the center.
Similarly to the RAF, the US ended up ditching the red dot and adding a gold border to avoid confusion with the Japanese "meatball" roundels, and also added the white horizontal crossbars seen on US roundels to this day, with low-viz monochrome versions being common.
Its also worth noting that during WW2, the colours on the RAF Roundels were made a lot duller and darker than they were prewar and post war. The blue is very dark, and the red is in fact nearly brown! Even the yellow has quite an orange tint. One thing not mentioned is the Fin Flash - the stripes on the tail fin! I have been researching the actual colours as I want to put a full size aircraft into WW2 - style camouflage...
Interesting. I suggest putting in the description an explanation of the many acronyms used in the video.
Thanks for the suggestion. Was there a particular one that stumped you?
@@CalibanRising All of them!
I have learned something today.
Genuinely didn't know that, I'm more Naval history. Though it's on brand for the British to knick something and then forever it be known as a British thing. I also never knew we changed the roundel so much 👍
Merry Christmas to everyone ❤️ 😊
Facinating...
So the Brittsh adopted their present roundel in WW1 to avoid friendly fire due to being confused with the German Cross. And yet the Americans moved away from theirs by adding white stripes on the sides in WW2 to avoid friendly fire due to being confused with the Japanese "meatball" roundel after a few attempts at color changes, like removing red, didn't completely solve the issue. The Americans had insisted that any RN FAA aircraft add the same strips to their roundel when they started operating in the same Pacific areas in large numbers for the same reasons, though unlike the Americans, the British dropped the side bars after the war, having only used it briefly. I've often wondered if they would have kept the side bars if they would have had to deal with the same amount of friendly fire as the Americans had earlier in the Pacific War.
History rounded out!