Your house has a more advanced fire skarm system than many huge commerciak buikdings. Seems you have commercial parking lot lights too. Love this channel and all the stuff you do.
The heater is definitely leaking intermittent current to ground. The sealed connections inside won't always be shorted by the water due to the position of the heater, how long it's been submerged (how water-logged), etc. You're never going to measure or feel the full 120v AC because (contrary to popular belief) water is a poor conductor of electricity. It's the salts, minerals and other impurities that make the water conductive, but there's still significant resistance hence the voltage drop. The transient voltage finds its path to ground through the vinyl liner which is a better but imperfect insulator. Even more likely, there are one or more tiny pinholes in the liner that are too small to let significant water through but a hole of any size will let electricity through.
@@nics-systems-electric I've been doing dumb experiments since long before I knew any better. I was probably about 8 or 9 when I dropped a bare 120v motor attached to a powered extension cord into a wading pool and was surprised when it kept running and didn't short out immediately. Science! 😂
Hi Nic, Next time run an insulationtest on the heater element first and you will find out right away where your problem is. The message to have extra protection with RCD's is definitly right! Cats have 9 lifes, we only have one so to all... be carefull with electricity!
I remember as a kid testing the cattle fence (210v @15amps) and ended up face first against one of the wires as I lost balance, that was fun, then as an adult (I'm a cluts it's ok though 😂) I was fixing the drive chain on a 240v 3 phase toaster at a fast food place and touched against two of the heater prongs that were labeled at 50amps and that was a real quick get up and go 🤣 worked quicker than coffee that's for sure
You probably felt the shock through a hangnail or small cut by your fingernail. Even lower voltages can "bite" if they find a spot of broken skin. Electricity can travel pretty freely through your body except for your skin, hence why a 9 volt battery can zap your tongue. I'm reminded of a famous low-voltage electrocution story: "A US Navy safety publication describes injuries incurred while doing don't's. One page described the fate of a sailor playing with a multimeter in an unauthorized manner. He was curious about the resistance level of the human body. He had a Simpson 260 multimeter, a small unit powered by a 9-volt battery. That may not seem powerful enough to be dangerous… but it can be deadly in the wrong hands. The sailor took a probe in each hand to measure his bodily resistance from thumb to thumb. But the probes had sharp tips, and in his excitement he pressed his thumbs hard enough against the probes to break the skin. Once the salty conducting fluid known as blood was available, the current from the multimeter travelled right across the sailor's heart, disrupting the electrical regulation of his heartbeat. He died before he could record his Ohms."
We use to make stingers in high school. You can take plain tap water and stick two conductors in it and energize it and the water will eventually boil. And if you add too much salt, iron, calcium, magnesium, etc you will draw enough amps to throw a breaker. Plain distilled water is not conductive at all.
A number of things come to mind here: 1) You will probably find the ground/earth on the water heater is connected to the heating element it's self, not the metallic outer cover. 2) You'll probably find it more efficient to use a portable heat pump type pool heater than an submersible electric element. Initial on-cost may be high though. 3) You were probably feeling 13v AC because your hands were wet and in chlorinated water, what is more conductive than normal water. I bet your hands were dry when you handled 24AC and that the 24AC was not referenced to mains ground and instead was provided by a 120v to 24v isolation transformer somewhere? 4) Don't know what the electrical code is in Canada, but it is a stark contrast to over here in the UK, where all circuits are GFCI protected at the main panel. Everything from all sockets, all lights, fixed appliances, etc.. are effectively GFCI protected back at the main panel. Even my mains smoke alarms are GFCI protected.
The NEC requires that all outlets in areas like basements and sheds which are at or below ground level have GFCI protection. Probably partly in case of flooding, but probably also so you can't run an unprotected cord out of a shed like you just did. I don't know what the CE Code says but protecting the outlet would certainly be a good idea. I assumed the entire feed to the shed was protected.
No the shed is not protected as it would cause nuisance tripping it is inside the shed so it does not need to be protected however if there was a receptacle on the outside of the shed it would need to be protected
@@nics-systems-electric That must be a difference between our two countries' electrical codes. The NEC definitely requires GFCIs for receptacles inside sheds, not just outside.
I remember last year when I first got into the fire alarm industry I shocked the absolute shit out of myself. I was installing an MR101 relay for our FCM to shutdown the AHU's and it was in a very awkward spot and awkward to get the board to the MR101 back into its box. I grounded out the contacts on the back of the board to a data cable rack while my arm was against the all thread holding up said data rack. Almost fell off my ladder and my arm was numb for an hour LOL. Scared the shit out of me! It was a pretty loud snap too! I think it was the shutdown side of the relay being tied in that shocked me because it sure felt like a lot more than 24V, but then again im not sure.
You could try dipping a metal spoon or other conductive object into the water and using it to measure the voltage. The surface area of your meter's probe would have been a lot smaller than the surface area of your hands. Also dipping your hand in chlorinated water makes your skin more conductive then when it is dry.
as a experienced electrician i can say the amperage leaked from a resistive heating device would be greater than amperage of your 24vac control power source. The feeling of a shock, or death from a shock is a product of amperage and not voltage
Definitely felt higher than 24 AC however you can't feel amperage without voltage first as your skin will be too high of resistance for low voltage to penetrate
In the U.S, there have been many recent code changes regarding bonding of pool surfaces to reduce differences in potential. Wet skin and the percent of water in our bodies takes away alot of that resistance@@nics-systems-electric
Luckily its doesnt trip the gfci breaker in the main breaker panel like how it goes in the netherlands and whole power gets cutoff in the house. I like the way how its protected the circuit with gfci on the reciptacles than on breaker panel in the usa and canada rather than doing it breaker panel wide. Also i guess u should get a new heater becus it probably shorts the mains to water and causes the gfci to trip.
We don't have a GFCI at the main in Canada, there are GFCI breakers, but they only protect one circuit per breaker, and more commonly used is the GFCI outlet, like you see in the video, which only protect at that outlet, and sometimes downstream when wired up to do so
@@MIW_Renegade i meant here in netherlands we use gfci house wide. My bad, becus my message was a bit weird😅 anyways so if it trips whole power goes down here not on the circuit wheres a problem or the outlet like how they do it in usa canada etc
GFCI is so important. In my house, I just learned that each circuit is protected by GFCI at the main panel. I tested it and it trips at 20mA, unlike 5 of a normal GFCI. (Edit) I find myself being unable to skip the GFCI because of this.
@@eDoc2020 possibly, I have tested it by reversing the neutral and ground wires in a lamp and it tripped with a small delay unlike in the bathroom that has a normal GFCI trips instantly. (Edit) I live in Canada and have never seen a system like this. The breakers are marked as 20mA RCD and are used primarily in bedrooms.
Hi Nic how are ya my friend? Im glad you didn't go in the pool that's scary, thank goodness for gfci, you probably got a low reading on your volt Metter because of the current being spread out in a big pool, how deep is it like 6 feet? Down here in Florida State mother nature heats the pool basically year round lol in the summer time its basically an outdoor bathtub even at night lol, im glad you're safe my friend i care about ya eh, have a great day 🙂 stay safe my friend
13 volts won't hurt you. As long as there aren't a ton of amps or of course the electrical leak doesn't get worse. But it's not the volts that kills you it's the amps Probably not enough current carried in 13 volts do harm anyone.
@@nics-systems-electricthat's a good size for above ground pool which are common in your area, in Florida we have in ground pools, you don't keep it set up year round which makes sense with the winter's I know I lived in Seattle Washington state
these "heaters" should be illegal to sell as they use mains power for the "heat" by means of hydrolysis (similar to how an HHO generator is set up except it doesn't contain all the plates like an HHO generator)
These ones are just an element inside, not like those dangerous ones that heat the water by passing current through it. As to why there's voltage where it shouldn't be, is because the heater has developed a fault internally
That heater is nothing more than a kettle element & that is not going to do anything in a body of water that size & YES THROW IT OUT,it has been compromised,time to bin it.
Yes you can be shocked by a car battery. I found this out when I was about 20 years old. A friend of mine asked me to to install his radio scanner in his car for him. He was unable to do it do to his disability. This was an old car 69 model back when the fuse block was way under the dash. So you had to lay with half your body in in the floor of the car and rest hanging out the door to get to the fuses. Well it was well in the summer 90° plus tens and high humidity. I was sweating like mad. I asked him if he wanted it on full time power or only when key was on. He wanted it wired for always power. Well as soon as I touched the terminal for the fuse I got zapped good. So yes if your wet or sweaty which is worse do to salt you can get bit.
That is a common misconception but you actually need both as it's not possible for there to be any current flowing if you don't have high enough voltage to break down resistance of in this case your skin
@@nics-systems-electric While it's true that you need both volts and current, the amount of pain you feel is determined by the paths and the amount of current along them witch is a result of voltage over resistance. When you touch a wire with a dry hand, the metal only touches a small part of your skin and its mostly air between you and that wire. If your hand is wet and you touch that same wire, you don't have that air insulating you resulting more current flowing leading to more pain and greater risk to your health.
@@lewiskelly14 because people learn differently sometimes the same thing with a different example or a different perspective or a different explanation can help people understand
Your house has a more advanced fire skarm system than many huge commerciak buikdings. Seems you have commercial parking lot lights too.
Love this channel and all the stuff you do.
The heater is definitely leaking intermittent current to ground. The sealed connections inside won't always be shorted by the water due to the position of the heater, how long it's been submerged (how water-logged), etc. You're never going to measure or feel the full 120v AC because (contrary to popular belief) water is a poor conductor of electricity. It's the salts, minerals and other impurities that make the water conductive, but there's still significant resistance hence the voltage drop. The transient voltage finds its path to ground through the vinyl liner which is a better but imperfect insulator. Even more likely, there are one or more tiny pinholes in the liner that are too small to let significant water through but a hole of any size will let electricity through.
Water is definitely not a good conductor
@@nics-systems-electric I've been doing dumb experiments since long before I knew any better. I was probably about 8 or 9 when I dropped a bare 120v motor attached to a powered extension cord into a wading pool and was surprised when it kept running and didn't short out immediately. Science! 😂
Hi Nic, Next time run an insulationtest on the heater element first and you will find out right away where your problem is.
The message to have extra protection with RCD's is definitly right! Cats have 9 lifes, we only have one so to all... be carefull with electricity!
I've been bitten by around 50v before and that was a bite for sure! But not like a shock from the mains 230v
I remember as a kid testing the cattle fence (210v @15amps) and ended up face first against one of the wires as I lost balance, that was fun, then as an adult (I'm a cluts it's ok though 😂) I was fixing the drive chain on a 240v 3 phase toaster at a fast food place and touched against two of the heater prongs that were labeled at 50amps and that was a real quick get up and go 🤣 worked quicker than coffee that's for sure
You'd probably be better off getting a small pool heater.
You probably felt the shock through a hangnail or small cut by your fingernail. Even lower voltages can "bite" if they find a spot of broken skin. Electricity can travel pretty freely through your body except for your skin, hence why a 9 volt battery can zap your tongue.
I'm reminded of a famous low-voltage electrocution story: "A US Navy safety publication describes injuries incurred while doing don't's. One page described the fate of a sailor playing with a multimeter in an unauthorized manner. He was curious about the resistance level of the human body. He had a Simpson 260 multimeter, a small unit powered by a 9-volt battery. That may not seem powerful enough to be dangerous… but it can be deadly in the wrong hands. The sailor took a probe in each hand to measure his bodily resistance from thumb to thumb. But the probes had sharp tips, and in his excitement he pressed his thumbs hard enough against the probes to break the skin. Once the salty conducting fluid known as blood was available, the current from the multimeter travelled right across the sailor's heart, disrupting the electrical regulation of his heartbeat. He died before he could record his Ohms."
We use to make stingers in high school. You can take plain tap water and stick two conductors in it and energize it and the water will eventually boil. And if you add too much salt, iron, calcium, magnesium, etc you will draw enough amps to throw a breaker. Plain distilled water is not conductive at all.
Pool pump! Nice filters! I want a pool like that lol but I have a in ground one
In ground is better anyway
When you're physically challenged like myself in ground pools are a must lol
@@nics-systems-electric in ground concrete floors, if there’s a stain it’s there forever
@@GaryBeltz xd. But the non liner ingrounds have permanent stains unless you repair the stained area
Hey Gary, blitz this guy is actually very rude
A number of things come to mind here:
1) You will probably find the ground/earth on the water heater is connected to the heating element it's self, not the metallic outer cover.
2) You'll probably find it more efficient to use a portable heat pump type pool heater than an submersible electric element. Initial on-cost may be high though.
3) You were probably feeling 13v AC because your hands were wet and in chlorinated water, what is more conductive than normal water. I bet your hands were dry when you handled 24AC and that the 24AC was not referenced to mains ground and instead was provided by a 120v to 24v isolation transformer somewhere?
4) Don't know what the electrical code is in Canada, but it is a stark contrast to over here in the UK, where all circuits are GFCI protected at the main panel. Everything from all sockets, all lights, fixed appliances, etc.. are effectively GFCI protected back at the main panel. Even my mains smoke alarms are GFCI protected.
The NEC requires that all outlets in areas like basements and sheds which are at or below ground level have GFCI protection. Probably partly in case of flooding, but probably also so you can't run an unprotected cord out of a shed like you just did. I don't know what the CE Code says but protecting the outlet would certainly be a good idea. I assumed the entire feed to the shed was protected.
No the shed is not protected as it would cause nuisance tripping it is inside the shed so it does not need to be protected however if there was a receptacle on the outside of the shed it would need to be protected
@@nics-systems-electric That must be a difference between our two countries' electrical codes. The NEC definitely requires GFCIs for receptacles inside sheds, not just outside.
wow do you see that arc when you unpluged the pool heater in the pool shed
I remember last year when I first got into the fire alarm industry I shocked the absolute shit out of myself. I was installing an MR101 relay for our FCM to shutdown the AHU's and it was in a very awkward spot and awkward to get the board to the MR101 back into its box. I grounded out the contacts on the back of the board to a data cable rack while my arm was against the all thread holding up said data rack. Almost fell off my ladder and my arm was numb for an hour LOL. Scared the shit out of me! It was a pretty loud snap too! I think it was the shutdown side of the relay being tied in that shocked me because it sure felt like a lot more than 24V, but then again im not sure.
Certainly a horrible feeling
Open wound would be more sensitive then skin alone due to the resistance of skin witch is why you feel it at 13 14 vac
You could try dipping a metal spoon or other conductive object into the water and using it to measure the voltage. The surface area of your meter's probe would have been a lot smaller than the surface area of your hands. Also dipping your hand in chlorinated water makes your skin more conductive then when it is dry.
Finally someone with the same idea I had after I did the test I was thinking that myself maybe that would read a higher voltage
as a experienced electrician i can say the amperage leaked from a resistive heating device would be greater than amperage of your 24vac control power source. The feeling of a shock, or death from a shock is a product of amperage and not voltage
Definitely felt higher than 24 AC however you can't feel amperage without voltage first as your skin will be too high of resistance for low voltage to penetrate
In the U.S, there have been many recent code changes regarding bonding of pool surfaces to reduce differences in potential. Wet skin and the percent of water in our bodies takes away alot of that resistance@@nics-systems-electric
Luckily its doesnt trip the gfci breaker in the main breaker panel like how it goes in the netherlands and whole power gets cutoff in the house. I like the way how its protected the circuit with gfci on the reciptacles than on breaker panel in the usa and canada rather than doing it breaker panel wide. Also i guess u should get a new heater becus it probably shorts the mains to water and causes the gfci to trip.
We don't have a GFCI at the main in Canada, there are GFCI breakers, but they only protect one circuit per breaker, and more commonly used is the GFCI outlet, like you see in the video, which only protect at that outlet, and sometimes downstream when wired up to do so
@@MIW_Renegade i meant here in netherlands we use gfci house wide. My bad, becus my message was a bit weird😅 anyways so if it trips whole power goes down here not on the circuit wheres a problem or the outlet like how they do it in usa canada etc
GFCI is so important. In my house, I just learned that each circuit is protected by GFCI at the main panel. I tested it and it trips at 20mA, unlike 5 of a normal GFCI.
(Edit) I find myself being unable to skip the GFCI because of this.
That could be AFCIs. It's not advertised and you shouldn't use it as such but I've heard most models have GFCI-like functionality.
@@eDoc2020 possibly, I have tested it by reversing the neutral and ground wires in a lamp and it tripped with a small delay unlike in the bathroom that has a normal GFCI trips instantly.
(Edit) I live in Canada and have never seen a system like this. The breakers are marked as 20mA RCD and are used primarily in bedrooms.
@@joshfriesen9401 It should be easy enough to find out what you have, the breaker surely has its special functions labelled.
Interesting
Is the heater element itself grounded as opposed to the outer protective shield? I’m guessing this shield is just to stop someone getting burned.
Ya I'm not sure
Hi Nic how are ya my friend? Im glad you didn't go in the pool that's scary, thank goodness for gfci, you probably got a low reading on your volt Metter because of the current being spread out in a big pool, how deep is it like 6 feet? Down here in Florida State mother nature heats the pool basically year round lol in the summer time its basically an outdoor bathtub even at night lol, im glad you're safe my friend i care about ya eh, have a great day 🙂 stay safe my friend
4 feet deep
13 volts won't hurt you. As long as there aren't a ton of amps or of course the electrical leak doesn't get worse. But it's not the volts that kills you it's the amps Probably not enough current carried in 13 volts do harm anyone.
@@TechOut that is a common misconception as you need a high enough voltage to break down the resistance before any current will flow
@@nics-systems-electrici agree with Nic
@@nics-systems-electricthat's a good size for above ground pool which are common in your area, in Florida we have in ground pools, you don't keep it set up year round which makes sense with the winter's I know I lived in Seattle Washington state
these "heaters" should be illegal to sell as they use mains power for the "heat" by means of hydrolysis (similar to how an HHO generator is set up except it doesn't contain all the plates like an HHO generator)
These ones are just an element inside, not like those dangerous ones that heat the water by passing current through it. As to why there's voltage where it shouldn't be, is because the heater has developed a fault internally
@@MIW_Renegade my point still stands. :) even if they've been made so there shouldn't be any current flow... still fails in such way regardless.
interesting
I have that Bestway pool
Reminds me of that Chinese heater DioidGoneWild reviewed then abused
at 12:06, one of the pins doesn't look too happy either
Not at all caught on fire last year lol
If you're hand is wet the power goes through better.
Swiming in voltage is fun
We had the same one
The heater is trash and doesn’t heat well it’s a wast of energy
Heats as good as a 1500w heater can in that much water
That heater is nothing more than a kettle element & that is not going to do anything in a body of water that size & YES THROW IT OUT,it has been compromised,time to bin it.
Reminds me of the "suicide shower" that ElectroBOOM tested: ruclips.net/video/06w3-l1AzFk/видео.html
Getting shocked by a car battery is real fun
fr
You'd have to lick it or have no skin human skin has too much resistance to get shocked by 12 V
@@nics-systems-electric true
@@nics-systems-electric to be fair I may have shorted the terminals and gotten shocked
Yes you can be shocked by a car battery. I found this out when I was about 20 years old. A friend of mine asked me to to install his radio scanner in his car for him. He was unable to do it do to his disability. This was an old car 69 model back when the fuse block was way under the dash. So you had to lay with half your body in in the floor of the car and rest hanging out the door to get to the fuses. Well it was well in the summer 90° plus tens and high humidity. I was sweating like mad. I asked him if he wanted it on full time power or only when key was on. He wanted it wired for always power. Well as soon as I touched the terminal for the fuse I got zapped good.
So yes if your wet or sweaty which is worse do to salt you can get bit.
You felt it more because of the water.
its not the volts that will kill ya its the amps
That is a common misconception but you actually need both as it's not possible for there to be any current flowing if you don't have high enough voltage to break down resistance of in this case your skin
@@nics-systems-electric While it's true that you need both volts and current, the amount of pain you feel is determined by the paths and the amount of current along them witch is a result of voltage over resistance.
When you touch a wire with a dry hand, the metal only touches a small part of your skin and its mostly air between you and that wire. If your hand is wet and you touch that same wire, you don't have that air insulating you resulting more current flowing leading to more pain and greater risk to your health.
Ground your pool pump and skimmer
Watch the video first the pool pump isn't the problem
Imagine making a fire alarm system off you energy pool
test the amps not volts
This video could have been done in less than 5 minutes but you tend to babble on
Yes most prefer the videos to be longer with more information if you don't like that you don't have to watch
The babling is actually quite educational. I've learned a lot from his videos and they are just unique and fun
@@kc0eks how is repeating the same thing educational?
@@nics-systems-electric more information is different from repeating the same stuff
@@lewiskelly14 because people learn differently sometimes the same thing with a different example or a different perspective or a different explanation can help people understand
Interesting
Hi
Interesting