Lugers for the Dutch East Indies Army
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
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Note: When I say the double magazine pouch is unique for this model, I was not thinking about those issued with LP-08 Artillery Lugers.
While the Dutch Army dithered over new pistol adoption, the Dutch East Indies Army (KNIL) took more decisive action and adopted the Luger as the M11 in 1911 after a few years of testing. They ordered the first batch of 4,181 from DWM in the years before World War One. After the Treaty of Versailles German companies were barred from military production, and so the KNIL bought a batch of 6,000 Lugers from the Vickers company in the UK. These were still insufficient for the force, and in 1928 they ordered one final batch of guns.
This final batch was made by DWM. The Allied Control Commission ceased operation in 1927 and left Germany, and DWM almost immediately resumer Luger production. This final batch consisted of 3,828 more M11 pattern pistols. All three batches were in a single serial number range, starting at 1 and running to 14020. They were chambered for the 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge, with 4 inch (100mm) barrels. Unit marks were engraved originally on the back of the frame, but in 1919 this was replaced with the use of a small brass plaque on the trigger guard. A plaque on the left side of the frame was introduced for unit marks in 1939, as seen on this example.
We also have an original KNIL M11 holster and double magazine pouch to take a look at - accessories that are extremely rare today.
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Geladen is loaded in both Dutch and German. So no need to change that.
Yeah, it's the same in both languages.
@@sveinbjartejohansen1544 he just said that
@@feepluk0 pretty sure you just did as well
Geladen sounds like a word that between a German/Dutchman that knows some English and an English speaking friend, would easily get corrupted over quite a few drinks. "Oi Gerhard, you feeling loaded yet?" "Geladen? Uhhhh..." "Yeah, ya loaded yet?!" "Ummmm......💡JA, JA! GELOADEN!"
The government don't care about us, that's why i always advice people to invest.
Your "Riau" pronounciation is actually pretty spot on, Ian.
The Dutch East Indies Army ( KNIL) WAS really an independant force. it was part of the Ministry of Kolonies, not the War Ministry...The officers of the KNIL came from the regular Dutch army but had to resign their commision first to join the KNIL. They did that even before stepping on a ship to Indonesia. KNIL soldiers could only operate within the borders of the colony. That's why there were no Dutch colonial troops in the Netherlands/ Europe during ww1 and ww2. Indonesia was for centuries a private owned colony, the Dutch East Indies Company or VOC( the oldest stockmarket traded, and most valuble company in history) had it's own private army, KNIL was it's successor. BTW, what a nice gun!
So it is likely that my gf's ancestors were employees of this company. (She's Dutch-Indonesian on her dad's side.)
The KNIL is also known as "The Forgotten Army" my grandpa has been in the Dutch East Indies, however, he wasn't there to fight, he was part of the music corps to keep moral high and they also played when soldiers that lost their lives would be buried and he also did guard duty once or twice in a prison, that's also the only time he held a weapon in the East Indies
@@Hardvengence I don't know when her family came to Indonesia but it was a long time ago I suspect.
Nice duty to have.
De VOC einde in 1799
@@dicksijtsma3093 Dus, wat wil je nu zeggen?
*GunJesus:* "This one appears to be full of grease that's probably, like, 80 years old and from Sumatra...we're gonna put that back in and not touch it."
*Steve1989:* "Hey guys, today i'll be eating 80-year-old Sumatran luger-grease. Let's get that out onto a tray... nice!"
Nice hiss...
Funny how Steve are able to eat a WW2 ration without any trouble, but he had a lot of trouble when eating a 2017 Chinese MRE
If the gun wasn't issued, or was extremely lightly used, I'd bet the grease came out of the factory with the gun and holster.
@@muhammadnursyahmi9440 dude was eating Civil War era meal at some point
If someone said he ate 70-Year old flamethrower petrol fuel, I would 100% believe him.
It’s amazing that this survived World War II with the Japanese occupation.
"geladen" is actually Dutch for loaded as well, so you could argue that this indication was specified in Dutch, like the safe indication ''rust''.
''Rust'' translates in to ''Rest'' and is obviously not like the English word ''Rust''.
Dutch for ''Rust'' is ''Roest'' BTW.
I love when the tools and knickknacks are still intact.
You know, if Lugers hadn't been so expensive, I could see them having competed with the Colt 1911a1 for longest-serving service-grade semiautomatic pistol, comfortably serving until that time when most everyone greatly changed expectations of military sidearms around the 1980s. So much about the gun fits with modern expectations, be it the detachable box-magazine, thumb magazine-release, and thumb-accessible safety, and it is still very rugged, reliable, easy to train new shooters on, and can handle potent loads comfortably. Heck, I could think of much worse and more "modern" pistols to have as a reserve weapon even now.
One thing it shares with the 1911 is that it "looks right". And it was an early example of a modular PDW, if you count the artillery models.
I always wondered how viable a “modernized” Luger with upgraded sights and a double stack magazine would be the same way 1911s have been modernized over the years. Hell, it wasn’t that long in the 1980’s when the “Wonder Nines” took over that Para Ordnance released their double stack 1911 frame for the 1911 platform to catch up. Even the Walther P38 was modernized into the Beretta 92 series.
That looks like something you’d see in a 1920s pulp adventure set in the Dutch East Indies
Nice to see some Dutch history we never learned at school. Big thanks from a dutchman.
Jij verwacht details over uitrusting in een geschiedenis les op school ?
Dutch and Indonesian history. We also never learned this at school.
@@adewit5366 nou ja, inderdaad is dit niet een onderwerp om te bespreken in een geschiedenis les, maar zo ver ik weet wordt er niet eens überhaupt verteld over onze bijdrage in de oorlog. Over de defensie van 5 dagen, het bombardement van Rotterdam en Eindhoven, onze vloot in de pacific en ons leger nog in Indonesië
@noneof urbusiness What are you on about? There just isn't that much time to do these topics any real justice in high school.
@noneof urbusiness other than the fact that that's already more detail than any history lesson in secondary school would go into anyway, this has absolutely nothing to do with being leftist.
We have this in our museum collection. Ours has the DWM stamp, which means it is either an early pre-WW1 batch or post-1927 batch. Sadly the mag is long gone, and the gun is in quite a bad condition. More research is needed and this video is definitely very helpful!
Our museum also have other KNIL oddballs such as the MP-28, short-barrelled Madsen (Karabijnmitrailleur M. 15), the gate-loading revolver M. 94, MP-28, and a plethora of M. 95 carbines (one of them is a post-Independence .303 conversion).
Which museum? I was at the Museum Mpu Tantular (formerly known as "Stedelijk Historisch Museum Soerabaja", also known as "Galeri Von Faber"). And they have a KNIL Beaumont in their collection which was wrongly labeled as "Brown Bess".
@@YaoiMastah Museum Sepuluh Nopember. The ones currently on display in our KNIL cabinet are M1941 Johnson, MP-28, the Luger I mentioned earlier, M. 15 and a full-sized M. 95. We also have two M. 94s on display in a separate cabinet.
Dutch East Indies army/military is known by its acronym "KNIL"...🇮🇩, what you have there is truly rare even in the present day armoury.
Yes, with all letters pronounced, including the "K", and with a short "i"", as in "pill". I'm pretty sure that's right, since all my parent's generation males served in the KNIL, or would have, had they not been imprisoned by the Japanese. Of course, most of those that were enlisted, also ended up in Japanese POW camps. That's how they all pronounced it, unless they were all in on screwing with their kids (us), which I wouldn't put past them.
@@michaelmoorrees3585 Yeah, that's how it is in Dutch too. 'Short' i like pill and a hard K. KNIL, like how you'd pronounce it in English if it were a word. Or like any Germanic language.
@@tostimofo So is it pronounced "Ki-n-ill"?
@@thesituation5315 Nope. It's Kn-ill. Pill, with kn replacing the p.
@@hanskuijsten2380 Yeah that's what I meant I just didn't know how to explain it.
Lugers Lugers Lugers, keep them coming Ian.
Lets go hokies!
The magazines pouch is what catch my eyes the more, and it's good condition.
As a collector of more modern Dutch Military gear, this video is great source of info. Really great condition Leather Holster and Mag pouch. If possible, it would be nice to see more holsters and mag pouches of different Guns on the Channel, bigger guns, rifles, with their mag pouches/covers.
im dutch and my father was in KNIL Dutch east indies army and im so happy you guys are doing dutch guns!!!!!1
I think "geladen" on the pistol is written in Dutch, since it's the same word in both languages. But, in order to notice this, you have to know both languages, so no worries ;) As always, great video!
its is , it means loaded. prettige dag verder :)
Though has proven not to be practical over time, the toggle lock mechanism is mechanical beauty at its best in my opinion. very fascinating.
I would gladly bring that up to my local shooting range while wearing a full set of dutch east indies army uniform along with the holster and magazine pouch
I love these videos where you can show off all those details that let you verify a gun/accessories. I don't know why, but it tickles something in my brain in a way that's very distinct from the looking at the guts of a gun and seeing how it works (which I also love, to be clear).
Interesting as always, and funnily enough I had just read something about how a bunch of these KNIL Lugers ended up in NZ. There were RNZAF personal in the NEI when the Japanese invaded and those that managed to escape got their hands on some Lugers and took them back to NZ where they were issued to RNZAF officers and dispatch riders within the aerodrome defence units.
Upon the defeat against Japan, many NEI troops where still able to flee to Australia and New Zealand together with civilians. Many would even continue to serve in the Australian army, eventually fighting at Tarakan and Balikpapan alongside the allies. This might explain another way Nei armament could've gotten in to the Australian or new Zealand armies 😁
Beautiful! I was also impressed by the excellent condition of a pistol and leather from the tropics. 'Never issued' makes perfect sense.
I saw this and thought "I quite fancy a deactivated luger as an ornament I wonder how much they are in the UK?" £1675 is how much! Matching numbers etc but that's not cheap!
I'm a real sucker for brass bits on old guns
Same, looks gorgeous
I think the marking is OIKL which stands for Oost Indische Koninklijke Leger (East Indies Royal Army), just guessing but i could be wrong. Also the CW on the holster marking is stands for "Constructie Winkel" which is the main arms workshop in Dutch East Indies that produce and repair many military equipment from guns to holsters for the KNIL (they had many department in there to produce specific things).
My grandpa had one of these but sadly my uncle turned it in with the police due to gun laws in the netherlands. Would have loved to keep it as a memorial to my grandpa. He is still alive and i did get his old KNIL mariniers mes (Kbar style knife).
same with my grand parents my grandfather was in the navy and later in a resistance group and still had their weapons in a closet , .
They turned in all their weapons some really rare ones back in the 90s
Very interesting to see this specific Dutch variation of the Luger pistol.
Amazing! Especially the leather gear. The tighter belt slot on the holster is probably the result of previous designs getting caught on things or ripping the holster off of the belt loop.
And now for the next episode of C&Rsenel and Forgotten Weapons Luger month we give you the Dutch East Indies Luger
That gun has little to no holster wear, that has had an easy life 😊.
KOL may stand for “koningklijke oostindische landmacht” which means royal East Indies army.
Riau, its my hometown. No one Luger "ready" in our museum in Riau. Sad
You actually pronounced Riau perfectly.
greetings from the future dutch east indies
Very funny, but Indonesia will do just fine. Saying "Salamat Tuan" from the Netherlands.
*heavy breathing*
in Indonesia theres still some of these guns in some of the provinces
Very nice to hear that. Nearly 100 year old pistols, but still working fine.
Good thing the Dutch take such good notes on literally everything
Really cool seeing the tools that were issued with the guns
the VL stamp on the brass plate means Vliegeniers,
that means something like aviators/pilots a word that is little used in modern Dutch
I can appreciate the sheer terror in Ian's voice when he found some old Indonesian grease
The millisecond the stench hit his nose "aah we are going to put that back!"
Still common, back then to use animal grease, though it didn't seem to have gone rancid (or at least too rancid), so it could be petroleum base, too. Lots of oil in Indonesia (Dutch East Indies, NOI, at the time) and that's why the Japanese paid them a visit, in the first place.
For a century old gun, they still look very cool.
I believe the only people who dislike his videos are intimidated by his goatee.
The Romans. They want to crucify him for a good measure.
@@mergru6371 My atheist blood boils at the very sight of Ian McCollum, but I can not bring myself to stop watching.
@@mergru6371 I'm an athiest. I admire and worship his goatee
The gun leather is in amazing condition.
it's been well cared for. most of the leather I've seen that old is usually dry rotted to hell.
@@justindunlap1235 yep. I have some old surplus leather - some is incredibly good, other stuff needed detailed care, and will still never be the same.
Everybody gangsta until a Dutch said "zeg makker"
The Luger is such a beautiful weapon.
Great, I enjoy the video loaded with info. Wished I had the leather working skills to make gun and magazine holsters.
IOKL stamp : Oost-Indisch Koninklijke Leger perhaps?
The abbreviation for the colonial forces is KNIL, not OIKL.
@@basithardimasqi6751 I agree. They were the KNIL. However, the name Koninklijk Nederlandsch Oost-Indisch Leger was also used in some circumstances. This yields the acronym KNOIL, which brings us closer to the letters in the stamp. Perhaps the KL or the NMM could enlighten us?
Luger is the personal handgun of General Soedirman. Indonesian Army first chief of staff and our national hero.
as Dutch person i appreciate the history lesson, we dont get taught anything about dutch east indies, its considerd a blackpage in our history.
Verry satisfying to see nearly 100 year old gear like that, in such great condition!!! 🤤
Lol. C&Rsenal published a video about Swiss Lugers yesterday.
Thanks Ian, as usual an excellently narrated show on a very interesting package
I often wish you were allowed to at least mention which auction the guns in the videos are being sold in. Or maybe in the description. For those interested, I did find this gun on page 417 of the Nov 17-18 2021 Extraordinary Firearms catalog; pre-sale estimate of $9K-14K.
If you go look at this catalog, be prepared to spend some time - many, many machine guns will be sold.
Amazing find. Thanks for sharing 👍
It looks like the cleaning tool/grease pot could be used as the hammer for the pin punch. So a very multi-functional tool kit.
No doubt I love your videos when awake! But when I go to sleep your voice does well to soothe into a slumber. Love the vids!
“All your rounds fall out… and that’s like really bad”
Years ago I saw an advertisement for a guy selling a few guns, including a "Luger" pistol, so I phoned him, and said I'd take the lot, and be there the following day. On travelling the couple of hundreds of kilometres to purchase the pistols, I found he'd sold the Luger the previous night ! His excuse was that "It wasn't a real Luger - it had "Vickers Ltd." on the top of it, and he didn't think I'd really want it! ..........I have never forgiven that guy !!
Good idea not to touch the grease, it was often made using material gathered from Sumatran Rat-Monkeys. Get any of that anywhere near an open wound, you're in for a bad, bad time.
Thank you , Ian .
"Geladen" is spelled and said the same in Dutch
There’s a photo of a US marine in ww2 with one of these Lugers.
Couldn’t the undated barrels be replacement barrels?
Is it weird I’m more intrigued by the holster and magazine pouch?
8:39 That's actually a decent pronunciation of Riau.
Kinda surprised it was sent to a garrison unit. KNIL garrison infantry are mostly for internal security, unlike the field infantry which was to react to external threats. Usually they got less priority in new equipment.
Damn! That's a beautiful set
Nice to see some Dutch related guns. 😃
Now i know why Luger in my city museum labeled as British pistol
fascinating, really rare that my nation featured on your vid. thank you Ian
Beautiful
Ah finally, Some videos about my country :D
What a beautiful set I would never sale them
Have a great day
Wonder if KOL stands for 'Koninklijk Overzees Leger' (Royal overseas army) or something in that trend.
Some small coincidence about the KOL mark: "KL" is an abbreviation for Koninklijke Landmacht, meaning Royal Army. Having both KL in a circle and "KOL" in a single mark is some interesting duality. [edit] While this is an interesting coincidence, the guns was never in the service of the KL, but rather the KNIL. So it was probably never meant to be read as KL. [/edit]
Luger is a great pistol since world war 2
I have a DWM 1921 Luger, and with the safety on, you cannot toggle the action. It is in .30 Luger, I wonder if that would make the difference, it was also made for export. It is in no way a former military pistol.
You think you can get a hold of a Walther P5? Would love to see a video of it.
Hey Ian, I had an idea for some content for your channel. Have your subscribers send you their own craft-built firearms and you show them off and judge them on effectiveness. And idk send the winner of the best one a bunch of merch. T-shirts, hat, mug, hoodie, cellphone case, etc. Engagement keeps channels on yt.
5:33 geladen means loaded in dutch to
*too
I want one. Right "Riau!"
Never would have thought that there are Luger's manufactured by Vickers.
Only the barrels were made by Vickers. The parts were imported, in the white from DWM, blued and assembled in the UK.
In the end, many of the former KNIL people's soldiers used the guerrillas in the forests, such as Suharto, Alex Kawilarang, the men of Panglima Sudirman, Bung Tomo, Robert Wolter Mongisidi, etc. because when the Japanese entered, all were left except for those brought by KNIL soldiers who fled to Australia. However, it seems that KNIL soldiers are prohibited from bringing their weapons into Australia.
Ian, I don't know if you will ever see this, but that odd mark is NOT a "KOL". It is simply "KL in circle", and almost certainly is abbreviation for Koninklijk Leger, or Royal Army. Can anyone show me why that is not true?
I love these all shades of Lugers. :)
Damn, almost 100 year leather pouch and holster from local Indonesian leather work.
Amazing condition gun. What nice kit that goes with it.
Ian, you forgot to eat some Stroopwafels during this video.
KOL could also stand for Koninklijk Oost-Indisch Leger
I'm pretty sure these lugers were captured by the Japanese, when they occupied the east indies, and were later used by Indonesian Insurgents along with other equipment leftover from the Second World War, against the dutch, during the Indonesian War for independence.
Ah, the "Indonesian War for independence" one of the truly forgotten conflicts (unjustly so).
@@AGS363 I wonder why it's so forgotten and underrated. I actually found that that subject to be interesting.
Considering the condition, I'd hesitate to assume much history from this specific piece - its very nearly "unissued" condition suggests a long stint on an armory rack rather.
@@frank5598 My guess is that the War in Vietnam (Indichina) pulls to much attention away.
It is the same with the 1965 events.
You're telling me the USA 'liberated' Asia only to then give them back to whichever European power had them before Japan came?
Technically, maybe not the best and most modern pistol. But it is definitely the most beautiful pistol ever.
Quick question: you mention only 4 sets of Luger tooling were ever made. Which of those lines did Vickers use?
Vickers assembled but didn't actually manufacture, iirc.
There's one of these on GunBroker right now that was once owned by James Earl Jones. Darth Vader's Luger! How cool is that!?
Ironic serial number for a Luger to turn up on Forgotten Weapons 11911, as both the Luger and the 1911 are iconic pistols that came out of that era of weapon design. Of course the 1911 is still being produced and has had a much longer military career.
Much longer "OFFICIAL" military career. Let's face it, there are places where if it will still launch a bullet some one will carry it. Look at the STG's in Iraq and Syria. LOL.
These are wonderfully interesting guns. Between the KNIL, Japanese Army capture issues, Pembelah Tanah Air, and others, these saw use by a lot of different folks!
Boy that is one pretty piece
Floorplate Removal Thing. Good name for a band.
5:31 these aren't in German but in Dutch as loaded (geladen) is the same in Dutch and German.
Okiedokie From the Netherlands 🌷🌷🤘
we are living in a world of lugers
Curious to see how much this set ends up actually selling for! In fabulous condition with all the bits and pieces on top of being quite rare versions.
1911? Doesn’t look like any 1911 I’ve seen. But it does say 1911 right on the front, so, welcome to the family, I guess.
You mean the colt 1911? Different armies use different naming convention which can come up with the same designation in this cas M1911 for a totally different weapon.