Are Protestants Closer to the Early Church Than Catholics?
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Its safe to say that every church (or of one within it (wolves) has its sin and the reason for each schism is a sin of the church. Of course theres a solition and a way to go back to the traditional ways
@@chriskatz2355 sadly, catholicism mandates sin -- big difference.
@@tony1685 name the sin.
@@chriskatz2355 Ex 20:4-6, Ex 20:8-11
@tony1685 what images where made by Moses's orders within the same book upon the arc of the covenant. Where are those creatures right now?
Catholic and orthodox friends, please pray for my Kurdish people. They are in danger! When praying Rosary remember my people, thank you🟥☀️🟩❤.
💯
@@Kurdishboy2698 🫡
Absolutely ✝️🤍✨🕊️🕯️
AS CHRISTIANS Part of ALL our DAILY prayer routines should include all our suffering, persecuted brothers and sisters around the world. Always remember them who are truly walking in faith under uncomprehending conditions to us in the west that we take for granted every day. Always include them and for a form of unity in the church universal.
@@Kurdishboy2698 my friend, what is the situation now? I want to know a bit more
I like how voice of reason spoke about not trying to be arrogant or triumphalist. I am a convert to Catholicism that was raised in the non-denominational movement. I must say that when I looked at the sources for myself, as in reading the fathers and re reading portions of scripture, it became obvious that the early church was not Protestant. I was confirmed in 2020 and have not looked back.
It’s UNBELIEVABLY obvious when you read the early church fathers. Spread the word!
Very good for you. You opened your eyes and your heart.
As a protestant lives in Asia, I really wonder by anti-catholic sentiment in America. We don't have such thing here. We acknowledge our differences, but never call RC non-Christian, heretics, etc.
@@frchristie Hmm, America as a Western country has more awareness of the history of Catholics vs Protestants in Europe. Many Americans have ancestors who fled to America due to Catholic persecution of protestants.
Welcome home!
I too am a convert to Catholicism from Protestantism - also due to the Church Fathers.
It is always about finding the TRUE Church and not about finding the “right” Church.
Never got any REAL changes in my life until I became a PRACTICING Catholic
Funny opposite for me. I guess God can reach us wherever we are.
@@rachaelveronica7864 It’s true for me too. I struggled a lot with the sins of the flesh in the past. Not knowing whether or not I was saved or not saved or if I was forgiven or not forgiven. The sacrament of confession and Eucharist really does infuse in me a REAL grace that empowers me to grow in justification and have a much much much more intimate relationship with Jesus. I love Christs Church!
What kind of changes?
Completely opposite for me. Sola Scriptura, Scripture alone, is what completely transformed me into a new creation and gave me my personal relationship with YHWH/Christ Jesus.
Keyword is “Practicing”. Any change can be done when “Practice” is applied.
3:30
Rusland asked about what the Church was like during the Apostolic Fathers and 150 years. If you read St. Ignatius of Antioch, he wouldn't recognize any Protestant as a church because Protestants don't believe in bishops and apostolic succession.
St. Ignatius was also very direct in his view on the Eucharist calling the bread the meat of Jesus Christ.
That is why it is VERY important to know the difference between the terms "evangelical Christians" and "protestants." Presbyterians are Protestant. We would believe in real presence (although maybe not the same way as Catholics) and apostolic succession. 95% of American Christians are some flavor of Baptist and aren't really Protestant.
"St. Ignatius of Antioch, he wouldn't recognize any Protestant as a church because Protestants don't believe in bishops and apostolic succession." You don't know very many Protestants, do you? Not saying you are wrong here, he most definitely would feel more familiar with the EO and Roman Catholic churches, but you should ensure you representing Protestants correctly when making such criticisms. God bless you
Baptists believe in the succession of Bishops, but that the office of Apostle was special to the era of Christ. The qualifications for Apostle were: selected by Christ, or brought up together with the Apostles beginning at the baptism of John.
When being technical, biblically, no one qualifies as an Apostle today. We reject it since no one today in "apostolic succession" saw a vision of the resurrected Christ as was chosen by him, and then could back it up with Apostolic signs. That does not happen today.
Today, all pastors occupy the office of bishop and are considered to be of that authority. "Assistant pastors" would be like "elders." Only churches can ordained and send pastors, and the authority is derived from the church. Churches ordain and churches send, but all under the leadership of a pastor.
Do, as Ignatius said, do nothing without your bishop...Baptists hold strongly to that.
@@nmarchbank Baptist here. I too believe in the real presence akin to the Westminster, Anglican, and 1689 Baptist Confessions of faiths. We reject transubstantiation but believe in the spiritual presence 👌🏻
@@Big_Mitch00 mitchellmorris669
How am I misrepresenting Protestism when you’re not saying I’m wrong and St. Ignatius would be more familiar with the Catholic and Orthodox churches?
The short answer is: no. Reading the Didache sounds far more like the apostolic churches vs the average Protestant church. It is quite undeniable.
Let's allow the early church to answer: St Ignatius of Antioch 107AD
Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
(Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8:2)
@@DUZCO10the copy and paste one-liner 😂
@@edurado1996 becuase it's quite straightforward with no wiggle for interpretation. Even more so the source is a disciple of an Apostle. Putting St Ignatius to be a more credible source of True Christianity than an interpretation 1500-2000 years later.
So if on one hand a non-denom, protestant pastor in 2024AD says you don't need a bishop, and on the other Ignatius, Disciple of Apostle John 107AD says you do, who would you trust as more credible?
@@DUZCO10 its so crazy to me though that you'll take what one man said, who wasnt an apostle, or witnessed the risen Christ, and use it as authority over your life instead of the words of Jesus.
😅😅😅 fasting Three days before getting baptized 😅😅 no infant baptism. Wonder how Roman Catholics read Hebrew 10 . The pray rosary to lady Carmel to get souls out of purgatory 😅😅
Ex Protestant, now Catholic ✝️🇻🇦
We all have our faults.
Me too, thank you Jesus!
Sorry for you
Ex Protestant, now Eastern Orthodox ☦️
Ex Protestant now Eastern Orthodox ☦️
Would be interested to watch Ruslan having a discussion with Sam Shamoun about Catholic teachings and beliefs.
Oh yeah
He would zealot him up haha
@@TheZealotsDenI can relate Thomas Paine and Lysander Spooner make me feel the same way.
@@timiscorner4601 nah ruslan not ready for that AT ALL. I mean that respectfully, if they don’t understand the Eucharist is a necessary sacrament then no I’m sorry the early church is not Protestant no way around it.
Sam is like a walking Bible. There are few apologists I have seen on any side that are at his level. Ruslan would be walked all over and I don't think he would deny that.
The view that Protestantism is a return to the early Church requires mental gymnastics and a totally subjective view on the Church.
Amen brother
It’s not that it’s a return, it is an attempt to return.
@@WtfOmw I grew up so Protestant that I was nearly anti-Catholic. After many years of study and participating in the faith in varying capacities, I’m in the process of converting to Catholicism.
The Catholic seems to resemble the early Church, which means there isn’t a need to return because we never left.
@@matthewdbickel Interesting, After many years of researching it's actually led me more towards the protestant view of the early church. I personally don't see Catholicism in the early church that began in the book of acts.
Protestantism is Sola Scriptura for all believers while Catholicism is Sola scriptura applied by your councils as they contradict each other and end up going back to scripture anyway.
What a privilege to have Alex( voice of reason) representing our Catholic Church so beautifully!
imagine quoting the 40,000 denomination figure unironically, really shows his lack of integrity. Under the same definitions, the Catholic Church would have 200 denominations because a denomination in each country is counted separately
isnt this the guy that has been running from a debate with needgoddotnet for months?
@@ytreggeurtsen4914 he went back and forth with him online quite a bit actually.
The early church had Apostolic succession, episcopal ecclesiology, regenerative baptism, eucharist as the flesh and blood of Christ and celebrated as a representation of Christ's sacrifice at mass, confession as a sacrament, veneratings saints who were martyrs and praying for the dead.
The only Churches that look like this today are the Catholic and Orthodox Church.
False. You have all or most of this in Lutheranism and Anglicanism too. What we do not have is mandatory veneration of images in the early church, immaculate conception, medieval purgatory and indulgences. Now if Catholic authority is correct we can claim those are necessarily consistent developments of doctrine. Sure
@@Iffmeisterone I can say is that Catholicism and orthodoxy doesn’t have mandatory veneration of icons lol
The rest idk if it was there in the beginning. Purgatory definitely makes sense to me but I have nothing to say about it hahaha
FIRST ORIGINAL TRUE CHURCH FATHERS ARE The NEW TESTAMENT APOSTLES & AUTHORS
FIRST ORIGINAL TRUE EARLY CHURCH [FIRST 50 YEARS] IS THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH...
Both Look Nothing like what the Vatican is selling. writings After the New Testament only add confusion and create a much different false religious version of Christianity. ATTENTION READERS: ALL YOU NEED IS THE BIBLE, JESUS, and Following New Testament Christianity... Not a Rome centered religion.
No.
You venerate Mary and the Saints.
As a Catholic ❤ my orthodox & protestant brothers & sisters
@@omardanielramirezheinz-dw6cy God bless you!!! Same to you!
Thank you for this view. I wish more catholics thought this way.
@@Ray12121I mean I’m Catholic myself and just my personal experience is usually Protestants that say Catholic and Orthodox are not Christians . That being said I love all my Protestant and Orthodox brothers and Sisters in Christ .
@@DrewH-u9fI completely agree
As well we all should. Hate the sin, not the sinner. Pray for the conversion of protestants, ask God we are all granted more humility to see the Truth.
Former Protestant now Orthodox. I asked myself the question; does my non-denominational church have the practice, worship, mind and connection to the early church established at Pentecost? My answer after searching was unequivocally no. I do however know that those evangelicals were trying their best with the traditions they were given, to no fault of their own. My sincere belief is if somebody looks at the history of the church established by the apostles, the only choices to be connected to the ancient church is Catholic, Oriental and Eastern Orthodox. I do respect these traditions as being the root of the tree.
It’s the 21st century, why does any of those ancient traditions matter though?
@ “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”
II Thessalonians 2:15
There’s nothing in scripture that says those traditions were obsolete because the church is one, holy, catholic and apostolic meaning it is universal throughout all ages.
"What is believed everywhere, at all times, and by all.” St. Vincent of Lerins
@@clementejr St. Athanasius, First Letter to Serapion, 28.
On Tradition
"In other words, when the universality of the Church Tradition is mentioned, it refers to the gift of the Holy Spirit, which enables the Church to preserve until the end of time the Apostolic truth unadulterated, unbroken, and unaltered. This is true because Tradition expresses the common
Orthodox mind (phronema) of the whole Church against all heresies and schisms of all times."
Im not protesting anything. The team is here
Bible ✅
Jesus ✅
Holy Spirit✅
Read the Didache or the teachings of the apostles from the first century. It was written contemporaneously with the Gospels and outlines the Catholic liturgy. It’s on RUclips as a 20 minute audio book.
Have you actually read the Didache? If yes, what does it say about water baptism?
@@mattb4249 "And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before."
"But let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist, unless they have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, "Give not that which is holy to the dogs."
Check out The Zealots Den
@@mattb4249 yes I have, but my brother already provided the citation below. Why do you ask?
@@slyth150 Hence, you would never conclude it was for infants. (Would an infant have considered the things in the prior chapters or voluntarily fasted before baptism).
May the grace of the Lord be with all of god's people 🙏
This was a fascinating and thought-provoking conversation. Thank you both for diving into such an important topic! I'd like to add some clarity from a Catholic perspective regarding a few key points:
Firstly, the Protestant desire to return to a “simpler” early church is understandable, but we need to recognize that the early church wasn’t without structure or hierarchy. The New Testament itself highlights bishops (episkopoi), priests (presbyteroi), and deacons (diakonoi)-roles established by the Apostles (see 1 Timothy 3:1-13, Titus 1:5-9, Acts 6:1-6). Early church writings, like those of St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 AD), emphasize the necessity of unity under a bishop. This organic hierarchy was present from the beginning, not as an innovation, but as an outgrowth of Christ’s establishment of the Apostles as leaders of His Church (Matthew 16:18, John 20:21-23).
Alex made an excellent distinction between divine apostolic tradition (unchangeable truths handed down by Christ and the Apostles) and human apostolic traditions (practices that developed in response to cultural or pastoral needs). These practices, like liturgical forms, can adapt over time without compromising the faith itself. The Catholic Church doesn’t view these developments as “innovations” in the sense of introducing new doctrines but rather as deepening and safeguarding the deposit of faith.
The Church Fathers consistently affirm the Catholic Church's structure, sacraments, and teachings. For example, St. Justin Martyr (150 AD) describes a liturgical worship strikingly similar to the Catholic Mass today. While liturgies have developed in form, they remain deeply rooted in the early church. If Protestantism seeks continuity with the early church, the writings of the Fathers point unmistakably toward the Catholic (and Orthodox) traditions, not a “low church” or congregational model.
The claim of “40,000 denominations” is debated, but the reality of division within Protestantism is evident. While Catholics have internal debates, the Church remains united under one Magisterium and the Pope. This visible unity is a hallmark of the Church Christ founded (John 17:21). Protestant fragmentation, despite noble intentions, highlights the risk of abandoning apostolic authority.
Also, Scripture itself was discerned and canonized by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This process was deeply rooted in apostolic tradition. To interpret Scripture outside the Church’s authority often leads to conflicting doctrines, whereas the Catholic Church’s Magisterium provides a unified and faithful interpretation of God’s Word.
Ultimately, the Catholic Church doesn’t claim innovation but preservation. The developments in practice serve the needs of the faithful while guarding the truth of the faith handed down by Christ to the Apostles. This unity of faith and structure, preserved despite human failings, testifies to the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church.
Thanks for this discussion and God bless.
The New Testament uses the terms such as bishop and presbyter interchangeably which indicates that these roles were the same. Ignatius appeals for a novel system where bishop, priest and deacon are 3 separate offices. This is unique in comparison with Shepherd of Hermas, Clement etc. A 3 fold ministry did not exist in the west until the second half of the second century. Jerome quite clearly affirms that bishops and priests were exactly the same office in his commentaries regarding church hierarchy.
Ante-Nicene did look more like a congregational institution than a hierarchical one today. The congregations played a role in electing their leaders with the members of clergy.
@@ElvisI97 This is an interesting take, but it requires some clarification, especially regarding the development of the threefold ministry of bishop, priest, and deacon and its biblical and historical foundations.
You're right that in the New Testament, the terms episkopos (bishop) and presbyteros (elder or priest) are sometimes used interchangeably (e.g., Titus 1:5-7). This reflects the early stage of the Church's development when the structure of leadership was still evolving. However, this does not negate the eventual distinction of roles, as evidenced in both Scripture and the early Church.
By the time of St. Ignatius of Antioch (~107 AD), we see a clear differentiation between bishops, priests, and deacons. Ignatius emphasizes the centrality of the bishop in maintaining unity and orthodoxy (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8:1). His writings show this structure was already widespread, not a “novel system” as claimed.
Far from being an innovation, Ignatius’s writings reflect the natural evolution of Church leadership as communities grew and required more structure to safeguard apostolic teaching. The role of bishops as successors to the Apostles was essential for preserving unity and combating heresies like Gnosticism, which were already emerging.
St. Jerome did argue that bishops and priests were once the same in certain respects, but his context matters. Jerome acknowledges the eventual development of distinct offices, writing that this differentiation occurred to maintain order and prevent schism:
“When subsequently one was chosen to preside over the others, this was done to remedy schism and to prevent each individual from rending the Church of Christ by drawing it to himself” (Epistle 146).
Jerome supports the idea that the threefold ministry was a necessary and organic development, not an illegitimate innovation.
Early congregations did play a role in electing leaders, but this doesn’t imply a congregational model like modern Protestantism. Election by the faithful often occurred under the guidance of bishops and with the laying on of hands to confer authority (Acts 6:5-6, 1 Timothy 4:14). This demonstrates a cooperative process rather than a purely democratic one.
The New Testament itself hints at hierarchical roles:
Bishops as overseers (1 Timothy 3:1-7).
Deacons as distinct ministers (1 Timothy 3:8-13, Acts 6:1-6).
Authority passed through laying on of hands (2 Timothy 1:6).
The early Fathers, including Clement of Rome (1 Clement 42:4-5) and Irenaeus (Against Heresies 3.3.3), affirm the importance of apostolic succession and structured leadership for preserving unity and truth.
The Church’s structure developed organically under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, adapting to the needs of growing Christian communities. This is consistent with how the Apostles handled changes, such as appointing deacons in Acts 6 to meet practical needs.
Therefore, while the early Church may have looked simpler, the seeds of the threefold ministry were already present in Scripture and apostolic practice. The writings of Ignatius, Clement, and others reflect the continuity of this structure, which was clarified over time but never contradicted its apostolic roots. Far from being a “novel system,” the hierarchical structure safeguarded the unity and orthodoxy of the Church, a hallmark of apostolic Christianity.
Brilliant and clear . Thank you.
@@the-conscious-vibe Your comments are excellent. I wish Voice of Reason would refer to human apostolic tradition as discipline and innovation as development of doctrine.
The answer is no
Any cursory research shows this is the answer lol. I’ve heard from some former Protestant pastors that early church fathers are ignored for their education.
The answer is... more complicated than just "protestant". But the way my church meets is a lot more comparable to the 1st century than a catholic mass.
What we need to do is go to the Word and take our leading from God.
Let's allow the early church to answer: St Ignatius of Antioch 107AD
Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
(Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8:2)
@@DUZCO10 Well said brother
Catholicism or nothing.
😂😂😂
I left the church for two years, studying the Scripture brought me back.
If protestants are trying to go back to the beginning, why is it that they are missing the core component of the Eucharist. Also hierarchy comes from institutional growth. There is no avoiding it.
🎯🎯🎯 the answer is they simply don’t like authority they want it to be invisible and lead by faith but they have yet to open their 3rd eye to the fact that this will only create more problems than solve… Jesus ordained Peter and created the holy order there is no other way
Protestants believe in the Eucharist
@HVLLOW99 Some protestants in the buffet that is Christian doctrine like Lutherans and Anglicans do believe in the Eucharist but have different definitions of it.
@@medianare the bishops are one thing but to claim someone has supremacy…and that Peter was the first one is quite the stretch.
Was there a three-fold division of authority in the early church? Let’s look at the evidence:
St Ignatius (letter to the trillians) 110 AD
“It is necessary, therefore-and such is your practice that you do nothing without the bishop, and that you be subject also to the presbytery, as to the apostles of Jesus Christ our hope, in whom we shall be found, if we live in him. It is necessary also that the deacons, the dispensers of the mysteries [sacraments] of Jesus Christ, be in every way pleasing to all men.”
- in the same letter -
“In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of the apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a church.”
Why even write this? Why doesn't he just say 'Hey fam, just listen to the infallible Pope in Rome with universal jurisdiction, it is not difficult'? He is on his way to his execution, why waste time when the Pope can sort it all out, why even be worried?
And who says what he has written is correct?
In the Catholic church, last I checked, the deacons are not dispensers of the sacraments. So in that sense, I fail to see how this is any more relevant to the Catholic position.
What was believed in the First 150 years of Christianity?
The Didache
1) Trinitarian Water baptism (Ch. 7)
2) The Eucharist [thanksgiving] is a participation in Christ's Sacrifice ( Ch. 14)
3) Confession before Eucharist [thanksgiving] (Ch. 14)
4) Forbid contraception & abortion (Ch. 2)
Excerpt from the Didache Ch. 14:
>Assemble on the Lord’s Day [Sunday], and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make CONFESSION of your faults, so that your SACRIFICE may be a pure one. Anyone who has a grievance with his brother is not to take part with you until they have been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your SACRIFICE
>For this is that which was spoken by the Lord:
>>*"In every place and time offer to me a pure SACRIFICE; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations [gentiles]."* (Malachi 1:11)
St. Clement's Letter to the Corinthians (AD 96)
1) Apostolic Succession (Ch. 44)
St. Clement was a co-worker of St. Paul (Philipians 4:3). Here is an excerpt from Ch. 44 of his *Letter to the Corinthians*
>"Our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned, and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry." (St. Clement, *Letter to the Corinthians,* AD 96)
St. Ignatius' Letter to the Smyrneans (AD 107)
1) Identifies the offices of Deacon, Priest, Bishop (Ch. 8)
2) Names the Church the "Catholic Church" (Ch. 8)
Here is an excerpt from St. Ignatius Letter to the Smyrneans
>All of you obey the Bishop, as Jesus Christ obeys the father, and the Priests as the apostles, and the Deacons as commanded by God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it.
>Where the bishop is seen, there is the multitude, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church....
>Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God....
>They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes”
St. Justin Martyr's First Apology (AD 150)
1) Liturgical Missal (Ch. 65, 66 & 67)
2) Baptismal Regeneration (Ch. 66)
3) Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (Ch. 66)
4) Words of Institution (Ch. 66)
If you read chapters 65, 66 & 67 and build a checklist out of them, this is what you get:
1. Liturgy of the Word (OT and NT)
2. Homily
3. Prayers of the Faithful
4. Sign of Peace
5. Collect
6. Presentation of the Gifts
7. Liturgy of the Eucharist (mix of water and wine)
8. Eucharistic Prayer
9. Words of Institution (Real Presence)
10. Great Amen
11. Communion Rite (closed communion)
That is what Christian Worship looked like in AD 150. It is what Christian Worship looks like today in the Catholic Church.
Here is an excerpt from St. Justin Martyr's First Apology Ch. 66:
>"this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία (Eucharist), of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been (baptised) washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined.
>For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word [Words of Institution], and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh"
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies (AD 180)
1. List of Popes (Book 3, Ch. 3, Para. 3); Peter, Linus, Anacletus, Clement, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telephorus, Hyginus, Pius, Anicetus, Soter, Eleutherius (current).
2. Primacy and Supremacy of Roman Church (Book 3, Ch. 3, Para. 2)
3. Necessity of Apostolic Succession (Book 4, Ch. 26, Para. 2) and in
Book 3, Chapter 3 titled:
>*A refutation of the heretics, from the fact that, in the various churches, a perpetual succession of bishops was kept up*
And,
Book 3, Chapter 4 titled:
>*The truth is to be found nowhere else but in the Catholic Church, the sole depository of apostolic doctrine. Heresies are of recent formation, and cannot trace their origin up to the apostles*
Here is an excerpt from St. Irenaeus *Against Heresies* Book 3, Chapter 3:
>For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church [Rome], on account of its preeminent authority..."
Notes
All of the above is recorded within the first 150 years of Christianity... long before Christianity was legal, long before the persecutions of the empire stopped... what is captured in the texts sourced above is the historical record of the earliest Christians. That is authentic Christianity according to the historical record.
With all respect bro. None of this makes any sense.
@Jackson-kq4ro could you be specific? What, specifically, that I quoted doesn't "make any sense" and why?
I find it hard to say without it sounding disrespectful, and I don’t mean to be, but all I get from that is someone trying to establish authority alongside and in some cases above the Bible
@@DoveDescendingMusic that's unfortunate. You might instead consider it a response to the claims made by Ruslan about what the Church believed and practiced in the first 150 years.
@@DoveDescendingMusicwell ofc from a protestant lens we can see it that way. Cause you guys actually believe that the Church is a product of the Bible, and that’s incorrect. The Bible (New Testament) is actually a product of the early Church as it was only canonized at the council of Hippo in 390 AD. To imply that we can’t put anything alongside the Word of God is, is to say that all other divine traditions revealed by the Holy Spirit to the Apostles (John 16:13), that came before the council of Hippo are futile.
That was so very educational! What a treasure of the faith!
Let's allow the early church to answer: St Ignatius of Antioch 107AD
Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
(Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8:2)
@@DUZCO10 yeah but we make doctrine from scripture.
@DonaCarter-s6j we gave you scripture. Look up when was the first time in Christian history that the 27 new testament books were compiled.
Hint: you won't find it until the 4th century
@DUZCO10 Christians had the 27 books of the new testament way before the council of nicea.
@@markmelnichuk5556 obviously they had them way before the council of nicea. They didn't all of sudden appear then. That's not what we saying. It's that the council canonized the scriptures so that there can be no disagreement and to be sure which ones authentic and also to compile it all together into one book as for a time they were just scattered letters. Some like gospel of Thomas or Peter didn't make it into canon. The didache was thought by some to be scriptures ect. Also the deuterocanon was listed yet that wasn't accepted by protestants today and for some reason some orthodox groups have more.
@markmelnichuk5556 please cite us a reputable academic resource. I'll be waiting
Hate to break it like this, but absolutely not lol
Let's allow the early church to answer: St Ignatius of Antioch 107AD
Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
(Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8:2)
What Ruslan calls innovation are properly called developments
That's a good observation. But I'm not surprised he said innovations. Many of these Protestant churches teach their members that the Catholic Church invented many dogmas and practices. I attended some of these Protestant churches before coming back to the Catholic Faith.
Yes! Developments! I think the word "innovations" is the word protestants use for brainwashing. This is word every protestant use whatever denominations they are.
We call them heresies perpetrated upon the people by heretical Popes. The issue isn't that everyone and everything must look exactly the same the services the first Apostles themselves served in. The issue is adding in false doctrines and transforming the services to the point of being unrecognizable to the early church.
I think it's crazy that Ruslan thinks Protestants are closer to the early church. What!?
The early church made little images of Mary, the saints and rosaries? No....
Why not? Read Exodus. What's the 2nd commandment. Catholics clearly try to omit this from their teachings.
@johndavolta3124 and they had drummers, bands and egotistical preachers? I'm talking about the teachings, and more specifically, the sacraments.
@@MiraclesFSC lol. I can't respond here but watch any competent apologist about this.
It's his American influence(which is mostly Protestant) mixed with, and some ego.
3:59 you're forgetting that they were being p3r secuted and unalived in the first 3-4 centuries. Of course the liturgy is not going to look identical. The sacrifice of the mass was there from the beginning though.
I wish we all would understand maybe we’ll just never see eye to eye on the sacraments, Mariology, icons, etc..But we can on the “main things that are the plain things” (thank you Pastor Alistair). We trinitarians are all part of the universal Catholic Church. And men and denominations will never be perfect as temporal organizations.
Seek Christ above all things!
I mean… I guess it will depend on if you want to save souls or not.
Protestants have so many views on what saves, but if you look at the Apostolic Churches (Catholic and EO) they actually agree on what saves, and it ain’t a preacher with a rock band in the place of the crucifix.
I have love for my Protestant brothers & sisters, but y’all are far far away from what an Apostle would recognize as worshipping God.
Love VOR. He has such a great way of getting to the core of common sticking points. That distinction of "Tradition"'s is so important.
John6 is the explanation of the most beautiful thing Jesus has left us. Himself. Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. We’re mad not to adore Jesus Christ in the Eucharist! The last supper (culmination of John6) and subsequent crucifixion and resurrection are one. Gods gift to us fools who don’t deserve his boundless love and mercy.
Good show mate. The more we talk the more the truth comes out!
Actually if you read the entire discourse he mentions having faith in him more than 7 times. He also claims to be God.
@ Our Lord also said
“And so, Jesus said to them: "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you will not have life in you.”
The Jews knew exactly what he meant, most of them left “this saying is too hard”
Clearly he is claiming to be God. The second person of the Blessed Trinity.
@@martinmcloughlin3601 I respectfully disagree. Looking at the entire context of the passage. He is speaking of HIMSELF. He is speaking of having faith in HIM for salvation. Eating his flesh and drinking his blood is FAITH in Jesus Christ. This is his final statement as well because throughout the passage you will glean from it that they do not understand him even in the several repeated statements of having FAITH in him. He not only says to have faith but says he is literally God. The fact that John never even mentions the Lords supper is a hint to this thought. They rejected him ANY time he claimed this. This would also confirm other passages like "I am the resurrection and the life, He who believes in me, though he will die, He will live" and "I am the way, truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me" It also coincides with his sermon on the mount. Faith is the most dominant Characteristic of a saved person, not action. Action come FROM the faith. So, we will partake in the Lords supper, we will consider ourselves to be spiritually bankrupt, we will grieve our own sin and hunger and thirst for righteousness etc.
@ also respectful, can you point out in the bible where it confirms sola fide and sola scriptura?
I assume by the Lords supper you believe that the bread and wine are a symbol?
@ happy to help if you have more questions mate. Praying for you!
Ex separatist denomination believer-> Follower of Jesus Christ in all Churches unity for Christendom!
It kind of can’t be. The term Protestant doesn’t really mean anything except “not Catholic/Orthodox”. And part of not being Catholic or Orthodox is the rejection of a whole lot of stuff the early church taught. Nobody in the early church told people they didn’t have to be baptized to be saved like a Baptist or taught Calvinism or thought that Communion was just a symbol. They also read from books that modern Protestants refuse to acknowledge as scripture. Even something like asking a saint to pray for you. The whole scene in the Gospels of Jesus hanging on the cross saying “My God why have you forsaken me”. I don’t know if this is verifiable per se but the very fact the Judeans thought he was “asking Elijah to help him” seems to imply they thought people had done stuff like that before. I fought very hard for a long time to remain Protestant but I just couldn’t do it after months of research and historical factors piled up. If God is not the author of confusion and Protestantism is all over the place with its beliefs it just can’t be closer to biblical truth than Orthodoxy or Catholicism. Once saved always saved is a dangerous lie.
Real
No Protestant mean those who reject stuff introduced by the Romans to get back to what the Bible teaches, in other words the true catholic (universal) apostolic church.
works base salvation through traditions is why I reject catholic/orthodox doctrine. Traditions are fine, keep doing them by all means, but salvation is through faith in the Grace that Jesus gives. and the forgiveness of all sins. theirs not one person who doesn't sin even after accepting Christ. the books ""modern protestants" refuse were refused by the earliest churches aswell because the jews rejected them. they were never canon to catholics for 15 centuries if my memory serves me right. To me, catholics and orthodoxs are the modern pharisees and scribes. They want tradition and claim to hold authority over scripture and barrow from our jewish brothers so it may benefit them. Please, the church are made up of believers in Christ, not doctrine. If any organization claim to be, "the church". I would be suspicious. especially if they claim others are heretics. most of the problems are an ego problem. If you feel the presence of God is in your catholic church, by all means keep participating. My own church teaches some minor things i dont agree with, but its minor issues. Theres no perfect body of church in this world. But we all come together to worship Christ. That alone is enough for me.
//Nobody in the early church told people they didn’t have to be baptized to be saved like a Baptist or taught Calvinism or thought that Communion was just a symbol.//
As someone who holds to baptismal regeneration, this is a much more nuanced perspective than how you are presenting it.
Firstly, it's not true that all of the early church fathers believed you had to be baptized to be saved. For example you have the theology of baptism by blood also known a baptism by desire which affirmed the salvation of martyrs who never received water baptism. This is something the Roman Catholic Church affirms today well. So there is possibility for salvation even outside of baptism while not being the normative means.
Second most Baptists will affirm the necessity of baptism as part of obedience to Christ even if it is not understood as effectual for causing salvation.
Additionally if by Calvinism you mean double predestination then you will also have a problem with Thomas Aquinas who drew and built upon these ideas from Augustine.
Finally Calvin did not believe that communion was just a symbol. You might be confusing him with Zwingli. Calvin believed in Real Presence. He believed that we (the faithful) were truly feasting on the body of Christ through the mediation of the Spirit lifting us up to the Heavens. Its intertwined with his understanding of union with Christ.
@@adastra301 not catholic but i dont like the protestant view of works. The story of peter walking on water is an extremely good example of how grace works in relation to works and faith. Peter walked out in faith, on his own. It was when he started failing was when Jesus stepped in and made up the difference of the failure and turned it into a success and a lesson. It is the same with us. Works are important. It shows we love Jesus, in His own words. We will all inevitably fall like peter did. That is when Christs grace comes in. Jesus literally gave His life for us so we could fail and more importantly get back up. Its how we learn and grow. The Lord love’s effort i have learnt in my life. Prayers are most answered when we are on our feet blessing others. Thats why the two greatest commandments are ones of action. And it Takes work.
We have to learn our history, if we don’t, we will continue to partner with people that are not brothers and sisters. We then, unknowingly, trample upon the blood of saints gone before us with no recollection of their testimony and their standing firm in the faith, fully trusting in Christ Jesus. There will be no revival, but a great falling away. Preach the Word
I think Alex and Ruslan were speaking past each other a little. Ruslan was asking when the mass began, and Alex was answering about when the liturgies became more formalized.
The liturgy of the eucharist goes back to the first century. They always had an altar for the sacrifice of the Eucharist, always had priests, always offered the Eucharist as a sacrifice of body and blood to God. But the exact ritual wasnt formalized into a single manner church-wide until later.
They also confessed their sins before partaking in the sacrament of the Eucharist. We know this from the first century Didache
Ruslan always does this
Orthodoxy is the one and true church. You can argue all day long with each other but at the end of the tunnel truth/Orthodoxy awaits. Glory to God ❤
😂😂 Thanks for the first laugh of the morning!
....I need to also add. I really respect both Roman Catholic & Eastern Orthadox traditions, expressions, interpretations of the faith we all believes share. (Hoping in Jesus - the pure & simple Gospel) Amen! 🙏🙌
Protestants wanting to ‘go back to the early church’ is like looking at a magnificent oak tree that has been growing for thousands of years and saying oh man this tree sucks let’s try get it to go back to the acorn.
I dont think the early church had smoke machines and rockbands during service lol
is that how you view every protestant church?
I think you're lumping all protestant denominations into mega church mentality. Strawman argument
Come on man tired of hearing this straw man
@@BekahC90 yes and in the shopping center of BestBuy next to Buffalo Wild Wings
@@SuprChfy then you are greatly wrong. putting ALL protestants together and the protestant churches like that together makes you look ignorant.
I’m currently reading Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years by Diarmaid MacCulloch (yes, it’s a 46-hour audiobook!), and I’m exploring the events of the 1600s to 1800s. It’s been fascinating to see how much history has shaped the Christian traditions we’re all part of today.
One thing that stands out to me is how deeply rooted every Christian tradition is-Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, non-denominational, or otherwise. These traditions didn’t form in isolation; they were shaped through centuries of debate, struggle, and even conflict. For example, the first major division in Christianity, the Great Schism of 1054, took nearly a thousand years to happen, and about 500 years later, the Protestant Reformation brought even more changes. Once the Separatists and other groups arrived in America, the divisions multiplied as communities wrestled with questions of authority and governance. It’s clear that much of this history involved confusion and even self-defeating arguments over authority-something that has made me pause and reflect deeply on my own beliefs.
The more I learn, the more I’ve been drawn to Catholicism, especially because of its deep historical roots and continuity. Amid all the divisions and debates, Catholicism has remained consistent in its teachings and connection to the earliest Christian Church. For me, this depth and historical foundation answer many of the questions I’ve been wrestling with, especially about tradition and authority.
That said, I do appreciate the role Protestantism has played, particularly in advancing the idea of religious freedom. Without movements like the Reformation, we might not enjoy the freedoms we have today. In fact, the United States itself was shaped in part by these struggles, with figures like Charles Carroll, a Catholic, contributing to the First Amendment and its guarantee of religious liberty.
Christianity’s history is complex, often messy, but also incredibly rich and inspiring. For me, this journey of learning has helped me see the beauty and depth of the Catholic faith, and I’m feeling increasingly drawn to it. It’s a reminder that the shared history of Christianity connects us all and challenges us to approach it with both curiosity and humility.
I'm a Catholic, but i have to say our protestant brothers are doing a great job at evangelization
Catholic apologetics was subdued in America for 3 centuries.
but the catholic is out of the bag now.
I was extremely disappointed Ruslan missed a golden opportunity to get that Arby’s sponsor at 2:42 with “WE have the Meats!” Oh well! Maybe next time.
None of the disciples or apostles would be a part of the Catholic or Protestant churches. They also never participated in Easter as the gentlemen indicated in the video.
They were followers of The Way.
Very good point that will never be agree and it will contradict what the road in the scriptures because both sides in many ways are wrong. They were leaving the truth faith.
The Holy Catholic Faith is The Way.
@@ericsalgado2450guess there is no such thing as the fullness of the knowledges of the son of God. As mentioned in Ephesians 4 and the Holy Spirit didn’t lead any church in all truth. Like Jesus promised.
@ there’s almost two millennia of verifiable history that says the exact opposite. Catholicism spread with the sword, not the gospel.
Answer would be no:
No apostolic priest, no altar, no Eucharist, no Church.
God bless all my brothers and sisters who are Protestant, hope you can find the true beauty of the Sacraments in this lifetime!
Voice of reason is an awesome vessel of Gods church
One Christ, One Bride, One Church. I enjoy visiting all denominations. One of my favorite moments with God was worshiping and praying in the Cathedral of St Paul in St Paul, Minnesota. And equally, the worship and prayer at the Hillsong United concert in Dallas, TX. God will meet us where we are. He is an awesome God. Peace of Christ to you.
So when will this reformation be completed?
When all of protestant branches agree with each other
@@rainy-sec I guess that means never.
@@twoody9760 yeah i have the same impression
The Fruits of the Holy Spirit 🕊️ is Unity, while the Fruits of the Devil is Division.
@AJ_Jingco true that
Every time I see an argument between Caths and Prots I feel so forgotten as a Confessional Lutheran.
This single interview alone would cause me to sign up for the Patreon
There are three acts the apostles did 1. Prayer/worship 2. Fellowship 3. Breaking of bread.
You know that last one means celebrating Mass right?
@LeatherStraps-fm8dt correct.
why the over semplification? were you there?
@@docdisco42 no I wasn't but the ones who were there wrote enough. Let's not add and complicate and make to nought what Christ has already accomplished. Remember.he tore that heavy curtain that separated us from. God. So let's not spend our lifetime searching for its shreds only to mend it again.
If it's in the Didache, that's all the way back. 💯 Catholic
?
@getmatthew the holy sacrifice of the mass and the Eucharist.
@@Coastie4 Respectfully, I see no correlation between the teaching of the Didache and the Roman Catholic view of the Eucharist. On the contrary, I see a reformed understanding (Spiritual presence) in the statement, "You, Almighty Master, created all things for your name’s sake, and gave food and drink to men for their enjoyment, that they might give you thanks. And you have given us spiritual food and drink and eternal life through your Son."
Furthermore, I see the Church of Rome's teaching on baptism as a full departure from that seen in the Didache.
@@Romatavis St. Ignatius who was taught by the apostle John gives a clear Catholic view of the Eucharist in his statement "They abstain from the Eucharist and prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his graciousness, raised from the dead."
I don't know how you can say Roman Catholic Baptism is a full departure from the Didache.
@@twoody9760 I hear you, but the reformed argument would be that you're reading Ignatius through a Catholic lens. Ignatius lived long before the Aristotelian concept of accidents and substances made its way into the church.
Also, the reformed view of Spiritual presence would not deny that in the taking of the elements that we are Spiritually feasting on the body of Christ -- The sign of the bread and the cup point to the reality of the thing signified.
In jest - would it be better to say that the Roman Catholic baptism is a 95% departure from the Didache?
The early Church believed in the Church being ONE, the Eucharist, confession, praying to saints. So it’s not possible for Protestants to go back to its roots unless they change their traditions.
Show me a scripture in the new testament where prayers were made to the saints that have passed. Show me one scripture where baptism was postponed when someone was converted. Show me one scripture where Christian’s have icons.
@@WtfOmw He has to refer to books written during the silent era to justify his positions. Problem is that those books were influenced by Greek paganism and weren't considered scripture.
The early church believed in being lead by the Holy Spirit. Read the book of acts.
Roman catholic today is an empty shell because the Holy spirit is nowhere to be found, only tradition and man made doctrines. A total mess.
Praying to saints was actually a contention and accretion in the church. It was banned at one time. So no, they did not always do it.
What Ruslan said was impressively interesting!! Catholics have Apostolic connection, Orthodox think "no, we are the one true Church and this is how it's been for thousands of years", and the Protestants are trying to "go back" and reform the Church, not trying to start a new Church but going back to what the apostles and the apostolic fathers actually established.
All those goals are actually the same!! When you look at it that way. And truth will prevail (for all of them).
So maybe we are all as Christians closer to union and full communion in Christ that we might think. I hope it happens in this generation (certainly we should be united against the big evils and errors of the modern world).
Honestly never bothered about denominations they don’t matter so long as we all believe in Christ and what he did and who he is :God Almighty ❤
It should bother you just like it bothered the early church. This is why they held councils. Also, the catholic church is not a denomination. Protestants have denominations.
Keep the Faith ! ! &. Keep
Keeping the Main Thing the Main Thing ~ Him and Him crucified ❤️
The answer is, if you profess Christ as God, we should stop acting like children and love one another.
As a Catholic, I love all my Protestant brothers and sisters.
If all I read was acts, Galatians, Corinthians, Roman’s and Ephesians. I still wouldn’t know what was going on in Catholic mass.
Read John 6
Many couldn't read back in those days and so the mass and liturgy was designed to teach doctrine and the Gospel. That is why you needed the church for proper instruction.
Because the bible was intended to be read in mass. The Church dont need to put all the traditions and teachings in the bible bcuz the bible was to supplement vice versa with traditions. The church use the bible at mass ad reference, while the bible needs the church for interpretation. They are meant to work hand in hand.
If you read Revelation you would. We are participating in the heavenly liturgy. Our service is lifted from there.
Read the Book of Revelations, most content in the Book of Revelations. Are in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
As a Catholic, I very much appreciate this conversation🙏🏽
They can't agree on what worship is, they are so far away it's not even taken seriously.
Catholics are Christians, God chose us to compile Bible and explain teachings like the Trinity. For example, God gave Peter authority, even though he wasn’t perfect and sometimes needed his beliefs corrected. His flaws didn’t take away from his God-given role of authority. While some Protestants may dislike us or misunderstand our beliefs, we don’t feel the same-we see you as brothers in faith and firmly believe in the role God gave us. ✝.
Catholics are NOT at all Christians. Stop making things up.
WOW ! Dripping in Superiority !
Catholic view of authority:
Gospel accounts are historically reliable > therefore Jesus is who He says He is > Jesus gives us the Church through his apostles > the Church develops various doctrines, including the canonization of certain ancient writings as infallible scripture.
Protestant view of authority:
Biblical infallibility presupposed > therefore Jesus is who He says He is and we should have faith in Him as taught in the Bible.
The former view is more rational and it’s the view the early Christians would have had.
Asking to provide biblical evidence on what any church believes is important.
As a reformed Presbyterian, i question my own church in what they believe such as child baptism…
People should investigate and question..there are many things Protestant’s believe I don’t necessarily agree with.
RC I feel hold too tightly on man made traditions.
What do you mean by "man made traditions"? Your definition is not Biblical.
The Bible, for example is a man made tradition. The 66 book Bible doesn't exist prior to the 16-1700s as an example. So why are you following such a modern man made tradition?
@@alisterrebelo9013 Incorrect. The translator and creator of the original Latin Bible (Latin Vulgate) , revised it 20 years later to and took OUT the extra OT books stating they were not inspired scripture but were good history. This was St. Jerome.
@@bairfreedom Watch the cherry picking.
St. Jerome affirmed the following:
1) The Eucharist is the real body and and blood of Jesus and not solely symbolic.
2) He affirmed the Authority of the Church and did not operate on a Sola Scriptura framework.
3) He affirmed the veneration of saints.
4) He affirmed the sacrament of penance.
5) He affirmed the Authority of the bishops and Apostolic succession.
Do you affirm any of these 5 doctrines that Jerome believed and were dogmatically defined and taught by the Church? Or just St. Jerome's views on the Duterocanon that were not dogmatically defined or taught by the Church?
@@alisterrebelo9013 Why are you changing the subject ? Are you taking the shotgun approach because you were wrong about your Bible statement? No big deal brother, we don't get everything right all the time.
@@bairfreedom And how do we know that St. Jerome's view on the Duterocanon wasn't dogmatically defined or taught? No Council or Pope taught the Duterocanon canon was anything but Canonical, and the readings from the Duterocanon that were a part of the Lectionaries as part of the daily and Sunday Masses were retained and never removed I.e. Duterocanon readings remained an integral part of the Liturgy of the Word as part of the highest form of worship, the Eucharist, that is still the case even today.
St. Jerome understood something my modern Protestant friends do not, he knows that he has to comply with the decisions of Councils such as of Rome (382AD) and Hippo (393AD), and his OPINION is merely that, his opinion, not something that is automatically binding on the Church when it is not affirmed by the Magisterium of Bishops and/or the Pope.
When I started reading the Bible in its original text (Hebrew Aramaic and Koine Greek), I saw how much we humans change simple meanings to make it make sense to our situation and life. Let’s all just go back to its original text and leave it there.
The Protestant cope is WILD to me
It’s not “cope” it’s bad will.
What are we coping with? Being right and not praying to Mary?
@@patriarchmike can you really claim you're right even if you deviate your teachings from the early Christians, specifically the the 1st and 2nd century?
Once he told the story of Guadalupe it answered all my questions and I am firmer in my believe.
My ask is for all who say their church is the real church is to explain the Thief on the Cross. Then I say anyone who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ is saved and WE ARE THE CHURCH. PERIOD
I actually agree.
The reason I left the Protestant church is because it was so far away from the early church. The Orthodox Church was where I landed after years of searching, prayer, and fasting. I still am grateful for my time as a Protestant, and I view it as a stepping stone as I matured in the faith. I think the number of people Protestant’s reach is far greater than the orthodox churches. I see the need for the work they do, but as I learned true theology it became undeniable to me where the true church was. I think many people are in the same boat I was many years ago when Christ led me into the Eastern Orthodox Church. I could have never found my home without the support of the Protestant church as I was a babe in the faith.
Same here. Thankful to have found Orthodoxy and move away from the entertainment value of the western evangelical church. Even Luther would be sick to see what has come out of his weak theology.
@@JesusIsWayTruthandLife Evangelicals are the ones proselytizing not Orthodox.
Very nice
How are Protestants trying to come back to that if they neglect the Eucharist, have added things to the church such as youth pastors, baby dedication etc… I’ve never seen a Protestant actually trying to come back to that and I use to be a Protestant
Protestants don't consider the Catholic church as " the church". And quite frankly practically all of Catholic doctrine was added on once Rome converted from paganism to Christianity. You guys didn't even accept icon "adoration" as acceptable until the 10th century and actually killed each over that subject for hundreds of years! The idea of a " real presence " in a ritual is pagan to me as is kissing statues and praying through pieces of wood with pictures painted on them.
We protest REQUIRED accrecians. Ridiculous things like, Marian dogmas , Purgatory, Indulgences, patron saints you can pray to, etc. etc. Baby dedications and youth ministry are not requirements. One is evangelism and the other is community oriented.
As an Orthodox Christian, I enjoy Alex's stuff. It'd be interesting to hear him expound a bit more as an Eastern Catholic on the idea of 'development of doctrine' held by the Catholic Church As far as I understand it, Eastern Catholics don't really accept most of those developments so that's an interesting dynamic. It's also interesting to hear from Ruslan an others on the Protestant side that they think things after say 150 - 200 AD are developments/innovations, but have no qualms with the New Testament which really wasn't solidified until well into the 4th century, They see the one as problematic, but not the other which is odd. Finally, hierarchy is all over the Scriptures as a whole, and specifically within the New Testament. As a former Protestant, we tend to just glide over the innumerable references because they don't fit our paradigm, but it's unavoidable.
I'm imagining how Saint Paul would react if he walked into a modern day American nondenominational evangelical mega Church. His anger would be swift and justified.
Wonder what he would say about the pope calling all religions a “pathway to heaven” kind of spitting on the face of Paul and the martyrs no?
Yes imagine saint Paul seeing thousands of people singing "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God almighty, Who was and is and is to come." He would be so furious.
@@DavidTextle pope is not the whole church, the church is 2000 years old and yet you are focusing on a pope who's been in power for a few years. also, paul disagreed with peter and peter was the leader of the church at that time, so paul would just disagree with the pope and correct him. Your hate for catholics needs to go
@@DavidTextle the concert halls pretending to be church are current and factual. Your stereotypical idea of the Catholic Church is not.
Saint Pual would be sending them Letters ASAP 😂
Fellow Armenian Protestant here saying hi!
The Church is Catholic since the beginning, we can only hope we all come back to The One True Church, and this would include revoking most of the non-sense spilled after Vatican II
Perfect post!
Does Vatican 1 support separation of church and state?
Does Vatican 1 change the way Catholics view other denominations and Jews?
@jaypritchard7122 I’m assuming you are talking about Vatican II, not I, could you point out one document from the council that explicitly does what you claim?
@@Tabatista281178 I am saying Catholic goes back to Vatican 1 and they don’t recognize separation of church and state then I would think they become an immediate threat to the US constitution.
@jaypritchard7122 Caesari autem quæ sunt Caesaris, et quæ Dei sunt, Deo
The Didicae is a fascinating document to study. Dating back to 40-50 AD and it looks VERY close to Catholicism.
Or closer to Orthodoxy 😉
If protestants did not want to be Catholics, why not choose the Eastern Orthodox? Only two ancient churches and there were no protestants. The closest thing to a protestant would have been a heretical gnostic.
I am a born again Christian who has accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior. The Bible says that the only way to the Father God is through the Son, Jesus, not through Mary, not through a priest. Read the Bible, there is nothing in there that says to pray to or whorship Mary. I will never become Catholic. I will remain a born agin Christian who serves the Lord as the Bible instructs me to do.
Sorry the EO fell away when they started praying to saints and venerating icons and theosis. Y’all never know if your saved, it’s that kind of anxiety that Christ abolished with the gospel.
@@NyghtingManHistorical records put Icon veneration/depictions in the 2nd-3rd century.
You also never know if you're saved. You can say it all you want, but you genuinely do not know if you will reject Christ 20 years from now, as many have done.
EO understand this, and have humility in this regard.
@ what document puts it in the 2nd or 3rd century? Where is your proof? As far as assurance no one can know if X number of years down the line I will apostatize but you can have assurance in the current time while still faithful you are saved. I’m not a once saved always saved person
@@ItsThatGuy1989 can you provide a link to a document that shows that and that documents date is not credibly questioned? Many of the documents that claim early veneration or prayers to Mary are hotly contested as to when to actually date them
The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is neither Roman or Protestant.
catholics try to answer questions without the Holy Spirit. im an ex catholic and didn't know how mislead I was until the Lord showed me through His word.
That's the problem with most Catholics. They tend to resort to tradition and early church fathers... We should all be only restoring back to the the Word.
@@drjanitor3747please name all the thousands of sects? That’s hyperbole.
Reading from a Bible that was compiled by “misled” Catholics… 😂
Everything happening in the world is certainly allowed by God. But to say that God lead you away from the true Church of Christ, must take a certain level of delusion.
Who do you think that provided the "Scriptura" which the Protestants claim to follow?
What I would say is that Catholicism has the highest amount of people who take for granted what they have, so much so they leave because they never bothered to actually learn what is taught. Then you meet them years later and say "I never heard the bible until I left". Sad really.
We aren’t protesting anything we kind of got it 😁❤️🕊️🔥
i dont know why protestants argue with catholics or catholics argue with protestants on who is right. We all fall short. I think its more of a personal walk.
Asking to provide biblical evidence on what any church believes is important.
As a reformed Presbyterian, i question my own church in what they believe such as child baptism…
People should investigate and question..there are many things Protestant’s believe I don’t necessarily agree with.
RC I feel hold too tightly on man made traditions.
@@Prognosis__ as a neutral observer in this, I actually lean more catholic in terms of biblical accuracy. And everybody talks about getting as close to the original source but nobody talks about how if we had what the “church” (however you want to define that) has in the past. Live guidance. Especially since the world got even worse and Christianity has become severely divided, idk why we would not have something like a prophet or great spiritual leader to lead and guide us. Thats how its always been idk why it wouldn’t be now. It would clear up all this confusion and answer all questions straight away anyway. Nobody can answer where all this difference and confusion came from and why its so prevalent and continuing on today. Theres more Christian churches today than theres ever been. Protestant definitely aint it. Saved once and get to sit back and relax. Takes all meaning out of the rest of your life because we are meant to use our entire life in trying our best and becoming the best person we can be. That takes personal effort. You guys dismiss all personal effort. That seems extremely unbiblical to me because the greatest commandments in heaven are commandments of action. Love God and love your neighbour. So yeah protestant isnt it. Salvation is definitely not a passive thing. Of course we fall short but isnt that why we have grace to make up the difference? Jesus didnt hand hold his disciple on the water from the get go. He let his disciple try on his own first, and then stepped in when he needed to. That to me is the best example of grace.
I'm still seeking former catholic current protestant but since looking into the ancient churches for nearly a year. It seems to be a battle of personal interpretation and tradition. Tradition safeguards scripture . But can it be too rigorous where it doesn't leave room for safely interpreting scripture freely if there's too much tradition. Vs maybe too much freedom in personally interpreting scripture and less tradition that leads to heresy. I'm not sure depends on how far on the spectrum one lands on . I figure wherever the lord leads me one thing is certain I want to do is obey jesus and his commands. And wanting to know where my Christianity heritage comes from and the brothers and sisters that gave there lives for the gospel that came b4. Have the protestants become too free in interpretation that they forget there roots and are thus vulnerable to heresy ?
And you would be wrong. You are describing universalism and religious indifference, declared heresies in the Christian Church.
Has to do with the fullness of the faith. You’re not going to get the same fullness in Protestantism as you would in orthodoxy or even Catholicism.
Catholic Church presents the Lord to the masses, prays for the people,and has reverance for his mother and church. Protestants wonder if the pastor is entertaining and how the music is.
My old church used to have love feast every Sunday. I thought that was normal.
The answer to this question is no
Not trying to be rude but Its Clear Ruslan should study more of Early Church instead of just talking about it
I'm a cradle Catholic but it doesn't matter what denominations. ALL faithful believers in Jesus Christ ✝️ will be SAVED.
Thank you for this
That's not what the Catholic Church teaches. If you're cradle Catholic you need a catechism refresher...all are not saved. Faith without works is dead..and Jesus said unless eat His flesh and drink His blood you have no life in you.
@@fkrr5 Cool your jets and read his comment. He said all FAITHFUL believers.
Untrue.
@@fkrr5 If you read all of John 6 he is speaking of faith.
Buenisima informacion, que desconocia.
The Apostolic fathers were not preaching at a pulpit that’s for sure. They worshipped liturgically and the focus was the Eucharist. That’s not debatable. You can say there was corruption throughout the centuries and you’d be right but there was nothing like what you see at a Protestant church today.
The Catholic Church teaches that to define what makes a church, and it is one headed by a bishop. Outside the Catholic/Orthodox Churches, the Anglican Church and high Lutheran and high Presbyterian are recognizes as churches.
All other denominations are considered eccelesial communities.
Protestantism is from the 1500s so no.
@@Drownedworld25 it's clear you didn't watch the video.
protestant's arent trying to recapture the early church, they are trying to make "mere" what God makes holy
The reason I think apologetics has become so popular in Catholic circles as of late is because it lends itself to Beauty❤
You get to see how we are all instruments that God uses in works through. Including Protestants. ❤❤
Yeah God's love was shown in the beauty of the sacrifice on the cross that's what love looks like not your cathedrals buddy I'm sorry God's house is not built with human hands
Reading the early Church fathers and didache the answer is pretty simple: No!
All apostolic churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental, Church of the East, Armenians, etc) are closer to primitive Church than any Protestant denomination is.
Very much appreciate the open-minded interview. Praying for your conversion to the CC. When you have the truth, you don't need much anything else.
The most important thing said in the Pliney the younger letter to Trajen was that he noted that the Christians met on a fixed day.
If it was sunday, Pliney would have said sunday.
My Orthodox Church has Agape Meals after Divine Liturgy every week. No issues. Great conversation and fast respected food.
You can argue about whether or not Catholic or Early Church Christianity is correct belief, but it is objective historical fact that the Catholic Church is closer to the belief and practice of the Early Church than the Protestant Church is.
I say this as a person who grew up Protestant, and has studied history my whole adult life.
It is a simple fact that Protestant Christianity is Modern Christianity. It is born out of the changes of thought and philosophy that created the transition from the Ancient-Medieval world to the modern world.
You can certainly argue that the modern interpretation of scripture and Christianity is more accurate to God's intent and will than the ancient interpretation. You cannot reasonably argue that the Protestant interpretations are the ancient interpretations.
There is nothing before the 4th century pointing to a catholic church., Paul has equal authority to Peter, WHICH is why he wrote so much more of the NT. There was no pope and no leader of the faith until Rome legalized it.
Roman Catholicism has drifted/changed/innovated away from their Apostolic roots. If I am mistaken, pick a number and make your case. You must show how you know an Apostle taught this doctrine.
1.Did the Apostles teach a Papacy? No.
2.Did the Apostles teach three offices: Bishop, Priest, deacon? No.
3.Did the Apostles teach an office of priest? No.
4.Did the Apostles teach papal infallibility? No.
5.Did the Apostles teach a propitiatory un-bloody sacrifice in the Eucharist? No.
6.Did the Apostles teach veneration of images? No.
7. Did the Apostles teach the bodily Assumption of Mary? No.
8. Did the Apostles teach on Purgatory? No.
9.Did the Apostles teach petitioning the Saints? No.
10.Did the Apostles teach a distinction between eternal punishment and temporal punishment for sin and that Jesus’ sacrifice only paid for our eternal punishment and that we must experience temporal punishment through penance? No.
Did the apostles teach Easter? NO.
@ do you oppose the remembrance and celebration of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ?
Thank you. Agree fully to your answers.
Wrong on all points except for papal infallibility. Some are easier to prove in the scriptures than others though. I'll take a stab at #3. Paul clearly taught a priesthood in Romans set apart from a general priesthood.
"to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit." Romans 15:16
@ While Romans 15:16 does use language associated with priesthood, most scholars argue that it does not definitively prove the existence of a formal, ordained priesthood in the New Testament, as Paul is referring to his ministry as a "priestly service" in the sense of presenting the Gospel to the Gentiles, which is considered a figurative use of the term "priest" rather than establishing a specific priestly order; essentially, all believers are considered priests in the New Testament through their access to God through Christ.
This idea of getting back to the 'earrly' church is a fundamental misunderstanding of tradition.
Simple answer is no. The early church believed in the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist, believed in baptismal regeneration, believed in Apostolic Succession including from the chair of Peter, infant baptism etc.
There’s this revisionist history I see of Protestants trying to claim St. Augustine who was apart of the Churches magisterium as somehow being Protestant when he held to Catholic doctrine that is directly opposed to Protestant tenants.
It depends how you define “early church”. The true church was closer to Protestantism than Catholicism. But early on corrupted churches were formed and these may be closer to Catholicism. The council of nicea for example was set up by Constantine the great who was a pagan who worshipped Mithras and pretended to be Christian. He mixed paganism and Catholicism, and therefore the established church was the corrupted church, which is closer to the Catholic belief today
my revolation from God. On the evening of Nov 1st 2023 just under a month after Israel was attacked, I was laying in bed with my wife Emily waiting for dinner to be done cooking. I then walked downstairs to check on the pizza and the pizza had a few minutes left. Listening to music and thinking of God and the oppressed people my soul was suddenly overwhelmed and i began thinking of my oppressors and yelling upwardly to God asking how much longer will they oppress me and the other saints. I then took the pizza out of the oven and set it on the counter, and paced the kitchen. The angel of the Lord then came upon me. My arms stretched apart, then together in prayer. I then fell to my knees, and the glory of the Lord shone round about me: Immediately I was in the spirit. Clouds and a mist invited me up, while the winds carried me up tonthe throne of God and after revealed beasts with a lot of eyes everywhere and within. There eyes color was like unto the day sky. Like the beast and seraphim of Ezekiel which were round about the Throne. Before the Throne was a sea of glass like unto crystal, which divided the cheribum and the ophinum from the throne and seraphim above the firmament. He that sat upon the Throne was a great light like unto the sun but vastly brighter, and a rainbow shown round about the Throne. That great light is God. I began to plea, please take me Lord, please take me. I then saw Emily walking away from me going behind the blanket into the livingroom, and In that same moments my vision ended I then approached her and embraced her and told her what I had just witnessed.
Emily's point of view.
Michael went downstairs to the kitchen to pull out the pizza from the oven and to cut it with a knife. Soon after I heard him yelling about the people who have oppressed him and done him wrongfully and how he no longer wants to live in this world. Then a loud thump occurred and I heard him crying please take me, please take me and that he no longer wants to be here and crying in general. I thought this was just him having an emotional break down but it persisted. I got out of bed and while going downstairs I called out are you ok a few times and hearing no response I quickened my pace. I also heard him speaking in a language i couldn't understand or known to man. I peaked through the blanket that covered the doorway to the kitchen that revealed Michael on his knees face down with his hands under his face and his feet crossed speaking in tounges. (For he that speaketh in a unknown tounge speaketh not to men but unto God). I asked again are you OK and still no answer so moved the blanket and walked up to him and touched his back and asked again are you ok. Michael then turned and looked at me with a crying face and yelled don't touch me and to get away from me very emotionally. I then left the room and came in Michael behind me and he embraced me saying "I just saw the Throne of God"
Padre Luis Toro is awesome. I don't know how long he has been doing it for, but he is the OG Catholic apologetic in my book. Glad to see voice of reason on with Ruslan. I truly believe there is a movement going on for loving on another between Catholics, orthodox and protestantes.
No it's more like gnostianity, because it rejects historical apostolic teachings. Also make yourself the standard of biblical interpretation as luther intended, watch Lloyd de jongh's series on RUclips on what Luther believed and how he shaped protestantism, he can read works of luther that are gatekept in german and left untranslated.
What are you thoughts on St Iraneaus and his work “against heresies”? I ask because you called it gnostianity so I take it you think Catholicism is development of Gnosticism? Is that correct?
No!!! Reread and go watch the source he recommended
@@christismylordandgod 🤔 my apologies. So what do you mean by the term gnostianity? How do you define that. I’ve actually never heard that term that’s why it caught my eye.
Not really since we like to emphasize the Christ in Christianity
@@saviyel not sure what you mean can you further elaborate? Thanks