@@Nateಠ_ಠTotally get it, but no I think this will always be locked up. Too hot to handle. That said, if you’re super interested you can save up $10 throughout the year and then just try it for one month?
I said this the last few gotys, but it bears repeating how listenable you've made a 9-person podcast. It just shouldn't work, and you guys have nailed it so many times over.
Agree with the other comments that the Rebirth stuff felt needlessly harsh. For a game with so much joy, it kinda feels like beating up Big Bird. (Also, the Rocket League minigame is fun!) The overworld and side content can get tedious, but that doesn't distract from the incredibly deep combat and sweet character moments. Wish enough of the panel knew about Granblue Fantasy to stick it on their "Best Game None of Us Have Played" list! 1. Metaphor Refantazio 2. Astro Bot 3. 1000xResist 4. Final Fantasy VII Rebirth 5. Shin Megami Tensei V: Vengeance 6. Elden Ring: Shadow of the Erdtree 7. Like a Dragon: Infinite Wealth 8. Final Fantasy XIV: Dawntrail 9. Balatro 10. Granblue Fantasy: Relink
hansons solo defence of rebirth was like watching a man soloing a helldivers extract as titans approach and i havent even played rebirth. admirable and tragic, my favourite ff7 character moment
FF7 Rebirth is absolutely my GOTY. I spent 125 hours into it and loved every minute of it. Love the varied opinions from everyone, but man im shook that someone would dislike it so much lol
the problem with rebirth, in my opinion, is the ending... the ending left a lot of questions unanswered, a lot... the confusion/worry it caused most players was big. I'm worried myself because I'm afraid they've gone too far. But we'll have to wait for part 3 to really see what they intend to do with this trilogy. I won't be able to judge Rebirth definitively until I've played part 3.
@@MRayGamesmost three part movies are character centric stories. Empire strikes back was essentially a character focused learn about the people you followed.
@danorganplayer I think when it comes to movies it can be a lot more forgiving considering you're talking such a small amount of time before you do get back to core plot. Hopefully this becomes one of those situations where the next part retroactively makes rebirths story more enjoyable for a lot of people. I sympathise with the feeling that there's not much payoff in rebirth and it's mostly setting up for something later
I’m still making my way through the video but the rebirth discussion was extremely valuable. I really appreciated everyone’s honesty. Rebirth was one of my favorite gaming experiences ever so seeing what did and didn’t connect with the panel was a great listen. Excited to see what ends up making the final list.
Hearing arguments against Rebirth was honestly shocking. I don’t recall a game ever going from loved in the beginning to hated with this much passion. It felt like whiplash Also hearing people make the argument they liked the game until they beat it AFTER last year arguing for Baldur’s gate 3 for GOTY when multiple people did not get past part 1 is insanity to me.
It’s not insanity. The games are ranked based on passion for the game at the time of voting. You can’t wait until every single person finishes every single game before deciding what the games of the year are. 2024’s goty would be posted in 2040.
28:20 Poor Ben really does try to hear people out and make his arguments, and never once do they let him finish a statement. I'm not even a Rebirth guy, but I admire his patience.
This take is ridiculous 7 people here wouldn’t have it in the top 20 at all, one would probably place it in the bottom five, and Ben loved it. Somehow that math ends up with it at 15, only because they value Ben’s perspective. Him pushing for it any higher, knowing the vibe of the room, was never going to go well. Every other game here was either universally at least admired, played by only a few, or had 2 or 3 detractors at the most (and even those had less intense critiques) I’m not saying I agree with the placement, haven’t played either remake. But acting like the game that Ben liked, and nearly everyone else had issues with, deserved any higher placement is crazy. If it was up to a clear vote it wouldn’t be here at all
@@mctheplaywright Then how do you justify Forbidden west getting #8 two years ago? That game had 1 champion (Janet) and everyone else was lukewarm to negative on it. Rebirth was #1 on Ben's list and like 6 on Haley's, it should have been higher.
I agree. I knew I was going to hate the discussion surrounding Rebirth after last week when Ben was directly asked about it and then a couple seconds later dismissed with "I don't want to hear about Rebirth anymore than I have to" 🫠 I wasn't expecting Rebirth to be in the top 5 but at least give the man a chance to make his case.
I find it astonishing how so many people disliked Rebirth. Such an abundance of creativity, craft, passion and heart were poured into the making of this game unlike any other this year of this scale except Metaphor and maybe Infinite Wealth. Sure it's not perfect but the overall experience was unforgettable. Everyone keeps complaining about the game being bloated and while that is somewhat true, the majority of mini games and activities were completely optional. I completely disregard any criticism regarding the characters as the character work was some of the best I've seen. The plot admittedly did have its ups and downs but regardless, I've steadily sunk over 250 hours into Rebirth and I've treasured the vast majority of it. Hands down one of the greatest experiences of my 20+ years of gaming
Not only a technical marvel for how pretty it looks, not only a fantastically remade soundtrack with a few new additions, not only top-notch voice acting, Rebirth is just stupidly fun to play. A video game-ass video game.
I think it will get more love now it’s on PC. I also think the majority really enjoyed it too. It’s topped a number of lists on other popular YT channels publications. It has one of the highest metacritic scores from both players and reviewers in 2024. It may not have met square’s expectations but it’s still one of the best selling games of the year(won an award for being one of the best selling Asian games) despite being on one platform. it won a number of awards at various ceremonies such as best narrative. I do get some of the criticisms - it’s a game that some old fans unhappy with what the remake is doing and refuse to play it. Others unhappy it was a timed exclusive. People also got burned out doing lots of the optional mini games. Personally, I’m an old fan who loved it, and what it got right it really excelled in.
It definitely makes me a little sad to see the criticism the game gets. Some of it is well deserved criticism, but I feel like the game deserves a level of baseline credit for the fact that it is a AAA game that is weird and extravagant in a time where most AAA games feel safe and focus-grouped to appeal to as many people as possible. This kind of risk taking and weirdness should be encouraged and rewarded in my opinion, even if some aspects of the game could be better.
I just didn't agree with a lot of the changes. So many story beats altered for no discernable reason, extra scenes or boss fights shoehorned in for padding (Costa del sol felt like a Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain fight), major arcs like Dyne and especially the whole ending scene just felt like such a step backward compared to how those experiences played out in 1997. Dyne's change was baffling, and the pacing was so weird to move the comedic Palmer ass-slapping scene from Rocket town to *here* of all places - destroying the mood of what was originally a heavy emotional scene that had time to breathe. Don't even get me started on how they ruined the ending either... that scene was one of the most iconic in all of gaming from the last 25+ years and they absolutely butchered it with sloppy multiverse jank and a dozen camera cuts that failed to even capture the pivotal moment.. what the hell were they thinking with that edit? You mentioned that no heart or passion was put into much else in 2024 compared to this project but there were atleast 3 similar remakes off the top of my head (Persona 3, Romancing Saga 2, Dragon Quest III.. ironically enough the last two also being Square IP) which demonstrated a much more faithful adaptation to the source material. If you're talking about heart and passion, then staying true to the original and not rocking the boat too much is at the forefront of importance in my book. To each their own I guess, Rebirth barely touched my top 20 last year. Square has sadly been making divisive decisions with their flagship IP for quite a while now =(
Speaking as someone who enjoyed Remake: Rebirth takes the same great combat system from that game and puts it into an open-world context wherein it ceases to be enjoyable. My biggest problem with the game is that the majority of the time I'm playing it, it's not fun to play.
My personal top 10 this year would have to be 1. Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth 2. Metaphor : ReFantazio 3. Silent Hill 2 4. Astro Bot 5. Elden Ring : Shadow Of The Erdtree 6. Balatro 7. Tekken 8 8. Dragon Age : The Veilguard 9. The Plucky Squire 10. College Football 25 Those are pretty much all the games I had the time to play this year. Still haven't played (but want to play) Infinite Wealth, Black Myth Wukong and Stellar Blade. I'm almost certain UFO 50 & Indiana Jones would be in my top 10 had they've been available to play on PS5. I've mentioned this in a previous comment but can't believe that many people on this panel hated FF7 Rebirth that much! Out of everything I've played nothing quite compared to it, even though I'm having an amazing time with Metaphor over 20 hours in so far.
I started listening to Minnmax this time last year for the last two 10s. It had me absolutely hooked on the podcast and I'm so excited to watch again this year
Makes me sick. How are seeing something different than everyone else…. The volume of content with care and quality attached to it is like nothing else out there. Infinite wealth is close
And it isn't even the Rebirth criticisms that get me. They have very valid takes, but I can't believe anyone here has more passion for Indika, Mouthwashing, UFO 50, or Infinity Nikki than Ben has for Rebirth.
I loved Rebirth and it's crazy it gets this much hate. Definitely respect that people can dislike a game. But I still think that Rebirth has the best cast of characters out of any game and it doesn't feel close by any other game. The Barrett story arch was just so good. But my top 10 is 1a Astro Bot 1b FF7 Rebirth 3 Silent Hill 2 4 Helldivers 2 5 Balatro 6 1000xResist 7 Infinite Wealth 8 Space Marine 2 9 Dragon Age Veilguard 10 Metaphor
The big one is here :). My own list of favorites seems to keep changing my current first ten is: 1. Silent Hill 2 Remake 2. FF7 Rebirth 3. Dragon’s Dogma 2 4. Like A Dragon: Infinite Wealth 5. Crow Country 6. Slitterhead 7. Indiana Jones and the Great Circle 8. Kunitsu-Gami: Path of the Goddess 9. Dead Rising Deluxe Remastered 10. Dread Delusion I never expected bloober to take the top spot in my list. Also i'd kind of ruled out crow country after bouncing off it but then started a new game last week and it was such a blast. A top year for games both big and small :)
I wasn’t too skeptical about how good sh2 remake would be, but I was honestly surprised at how good it was. I recognize that the style of gameplay is not for everyone but I loved it just as much as the original
Silent Hill 2 is my number 1 as well and I can't believe it's not in the two 10s at all here. I never played the original but the story telling is just phenomenal.
I'm not one to comment a ton, but FF7 rebirth getting that shakedown that it got was a crime. I think it's held to a different standard, and I get it is not for everyone, but still, it got SO much attention from the public and from this media outlet because of Ben's love for it that I think it's one of those "I hear so much about this game, I hate it" kind of treatments. It's a great, solid game with good character arcs and I don't really want the original narrative to drastically change at all but it's enough that it's interesting still. I think it should of easily been top 10
I'm not a big JRPG guy. FF7 remake was my first final fantasy and it made me fall in love with the series. I loved that game, and I loved FF7 rebirth even more. It's without a doubt my goty.
That’s awesome to hear. The original FF7 introduced an entire generation of people to the series and RPGs that would not have gotten into the genre without it, so it’s cool to know that part of legacy also carried on.
Cloud, Barrett,Aerith and Red all have character arcs in this story. Tifa has a major character moment in rebirth. It’s surprising to hear the discourse on Rebirth. Jacob’s a bit outta pocket on this hating an entire game because you dislike where they took the ending seems more like you had expectations before you went into the game and when it didn’t hit the emotional response you wanted you disregarded the rest of the game. Oh well at the end of the day it’s their opinion even if I don’t agree.
I loved every single second of Rebirth . Clearly GOTY for me. But I totally get where some of the gang are coming from on this - excellent, balanced discussion!
Realistically Rebirth is the type of game that some people should not play - not in a gatekeeping way, but in terms of their likelihood to enjoy it. It’s the middle part of the story, it’s taking big swings, and it’s an unabashed remake of a PS1 RPG, for better or worse. On top of that, while Remake was the first part and thus easier to get into for newcomers, on top of being much more linear, this is much closer to what FF7 is actually like and doesn’t provide an overall conclusion to the story. That being said, there is definitely a beginning, middle, and end to Rebirth. It’s just in a similar way to Empire Strikes Back, Back to the Future 2, or The Two Towers. So I push back a little bit on it not being a complete, independent story. The characters don’t end the game in the same place they begin it, they will be going to new places in the next part, and there’s a definite end to one character which has massive implications for the rest of the story. I think it’s just a big ask to get people to stay invested for another 3 years, and that’s where the struggle lies. Some of the cohorts played it to review it, or to discuss in this podcast, and I think that level of pressure to play something when they probably aren’t actually that invested to play something they won’t see a full conclusion to until 2027 makes it less enjoyable. But for nerds like me, for whom this is one of their favorite game worlds, the whole thing is a win. Just a more niche one than a typical GotY.
I wish someone would’ve brought up the point that Infinity Nikki is a gacha game. The most predatory type of game on the market rn, imo. You gamble with your time and/or money to get things that help you progress through the game.
Came up in the building of the top 20, and it was pretty quickly talked down into being less predatory than most of it’s contemporaries. Which very well might be true, but having those mechanics at all feel like it should push it to the bottom of the list if on here at all.
@mctheplaywright Thank you for adding some context that I was missing. Unfortunately, it's the exact same as its contemporaries, imo. For example, in Genshin Impact you need to roll for characters that you need in order to access certain areas, fight certain enemies, or use different game mechanics. Infinity Nikki has the exact same thing, except you're rolling for outfits. Those outfits have the exact same functions as what I mentioned about the characters in Genshin Impact. I've played a few hours of Genshin and only a little over one hour of Nikki, but they gave me the same vibe of being built around their gacha mechanics. Everything you do is to earn currency to try and earn more characters/outfits. I think that all of the points about the game brought up in this podcast were totally valid, but it shouldn't be ignored how predatory it is behind that.
@@dylpickle1879 I 100% agree, shocked it was ever part of the conversation. Especially from a podcast so focused on ethics in games journalism and development
It's also a big budget game made for women by a studio that's majority women. For all of its talk about feminism and inclusion, where's the Western studio that would do this?
Always such a joy to watch these episodes each year, and this was no exception. Appreciate the wide range of opinions and takes we get to hear through this - thanks MinnMax!
Since Rebirth, Metaphor and Infinite Wealth took so much of my time this year plus some backlog games. I didn’t get to play most of these. So thank you guys for adding to my backlog and the great discussion! For the record though Rebirth rules!!
the FF7: Rebirth discussion was very difficult to listen to. It sounded so bitter and dismissive (for the most part). I get some critiques and some valid ones have been made by the group. But that doesn`t account for the not so subtle hate. Ben needed Bosman and Max`s backup.
It was really disappointing.I get the game is not everyone’s cup of tea and it certainly isn’t perfect, but anyone listening to this wouldn’t be able to guess Rebirth is one of the best reviewed games of the year .. by a lot. So were hundred of critics just wrong? I really hope going forward Ben is able to include folks who can give a different perspective bc this one felt incredibly bitter.
Not sure how Rebirth landed so low yet a game like Forbidden West made like their number 8 spot that year. Forbidden west had one person championing it (Janet) and everyone else was lukewarm to negative on it yet it still made the top 10. I feel bad for Ben, he needed more backup
The problem is that some of the cohorts played it in spite of genuinely disliking it. I won’t make some grand statement about whether they are justified in that, but I do think continuing to play something that you aren’t enjoying just to see the end can lead to intense bitterness, and that can fester over the course of nearly a year. Jacob, for example, finished Rebirth before it officially released, so he’s had over 300 days to sour on the game. It’s partly just the flaw of this type of cooperative list creation. Ordinarily, listing your favorite games of the year is about talking about what you liked, not what you didn’t. But when you’ve got 9 people working together, that’s a lot of clashing opinions. I do think Rebirth suffered a lot more than games have previously for the MinnMax list when they are beloved by one person and mostly not cared for by the rest. Last year, for example, Hitman climbed the ranks off of extreme passion from one person, slight passion from another, and relative ambivalence from the rest. To me, that’s a good thing, if that passion is so bright that it makes everyone feel that good to hear about. But I think this year, because Ben is the “Leader” of MinnMax, he probably doesn’t want to push too hard for something to be higher when it’s up against vehement dislike from other cohorts. Which is fair.
@@midnightdarling7503not just critics, it has a high metacritic for players too. It won various awards like best narrative, best director, best selling Asian game (along with Wukong and Stella blade). It was top in many other peoples lists like skill up’s and various publications. They are the outliers, really, who didn’t get on with the game, which is fair enough but not truly representative of how much it was loved.
@@NerdStrikesBack I am willing to make the argument that if a game elicits that kind of emotions (good or bad), it confronts you with something worth diving into! A introspection or A Deepest Dive into yourself, instead of the medium of critique (which can only serves as a catalyst for something dormant).
I think Rebirth is a masterpiece. Its crazy how people can have such a different perspective on something that I think is a miracle got made. Great and varied gameplay, tons of content, good exploration, deep combat, incredible graphics and cinematics, the best cast of characters in gaming.
I'm right there with you. After 180 hours, two full playthroughs and a platinum trophy, I still can't get enough. With Rebirth, the FF7 characters have gone from a cast I always liked to a cast I absolutely adore. It has the best combat I've ever played. And, you forgot to mention, it also has one of the best soundtracks in video game history. It's not that I only play and love Final Fantasy - I've played most of MinnMax's Top Ten, and I'd agree that most of them are great - but nothing comes close to what Rebirth has given me. Truly one of my favorite games of all time. Sad to see people go out of their way to hate it.
I still think how Square handled the development of Rebirth is amazing after Remake. It really feels like one of those near perfect sequels where I got everything I wanted from Remake in it
People are allowed to have different opinions than you. People are allowed to have different opinions than you. People are allowed to have different opinions than you. People are allowed to have different opinions than you. People are allowed to have different opinions than you. People are allowed to have different opinions than you. People are allowed to have different opinions than you.
I don't think anyone here is actually arguing that you and your crew are not entitled to your own opinions. But neither you nor your crew are entitled to your audience's unconditional acceptance of any absurd or mean-spirited arguments you make. Faulty logic and inaccurate claims deserve to be criticized, whether they're coming from angry youtube commenters or pretentious gaming critics. As critics yourselves, who talk for hours and hours about this stuff - and ask people to listen - YOU should be the first to appreciate this fact and not try to shut down legitimate discussion. And it is especially patronizing and hypocritical to act here like your own audience is toxic and needs a lesson in restraint - all the while members of your panel disrespectfully imply that anyone that likes Rebirth is an idiot and has bad taste. If you're really hoping to see more positivity in the comments, that positivity has to start in the content you guys create.
SPOILERS FOR REBIRTH: While I do agree that both Remake and Rebirth are largely about Aerith, they are MORESO about Cloud. I think the ending of Rebirth is all about how Cloud's mental state is deteriorating, and Cloud's ability to grieve and accept what has happened is the actual heart of the story. I do think it's fair to be frustrated since this is the middle chapter, and I'm hoping I don't eat my words but my hope is that FF7R3 is going to retroactively make Rebirth make more sense and hit harder.
Also I don't want to just comment on Rebirth as that's been done plenty here lol I do really appreciate all the conversation and I think y'all are a wonderful group!
Do brand new players also think both games are about clouds mental state deteriorating or are people who are fans of the original game putting their broader knowledge of where the story is going onto the story in front of them? You can watch a compilation of streamers 'reacting' to the ending and they assume Aerith is just a 'force ghost' aka lifestream blahblah magics, I'm not sure I've seen a broader audience come at it from Hansons pov about how its leaning so heavily into the cloud isnt blahblah stuff
Well said buddy. What we saw in the OG with Aerith has been done and they want to take you on a new journey and experience something which has more risk but I would rather have that to push art than have a 1 for 1.
@@salmark9080 2 games have been a diret 1:1 all this talk of SPOILERS UP WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SPOILERS is always followed by the exact stuff that happened in the 1997 game
It’s really interesting to see how many people vividly dislike Rebirth. I absolutely loved the game and discourse it cost. Especially when it feels like we played different games when it comes to how they viewed the characters moments or arcs
i like how everyone starts defending their passion projects while jacob just sits there in silence having given up nine sols completely after the last video 🤭
FF7 Rebirth is definitely my GOTY followed closely by Metaphor, Infinite Wealth and Mouthwashing. I don’t necessarily agree with a lot of the flak thrown at Rebirth, but I do see where it’s coming from. The more I think about the Retrilogy, it really feels like it’s made for fans of the original. It does lean heavily on expectation and nostalgia. I don’t think it’s a bad thing, it worked to great effect for me, but I can see how uneven and disorienting the experience could be for newcomers.
The Retrilogy is a sequel to the entire FF7 compendium of stories (On the way to a smile, advent children, dirge of cerberus, etc), which almost no one understands except for me and like 5 other people on this planet
the thing I’ve seen plenty of people who didn’t play the original love remake and rebirth. I’ve seen more hate from fans of the original to be honest who just wanted a remake in one game with no drastic changes. I loved the game and I can see where they are coming from with the criticisms but it ‘s an exceptional game that gets far more right than wrong. You can nit pick any game, really and as Haley said . Now that Metaphore has had some success you can see a lot of haters coming out, too.
When it comes to Rebirth, Edge Magazine's January feature included an excerpt that really reflects why the story didn't connect as much for a couple of the panelists: "Even while working on Remake, though, the team nursed the uneasy knowledge that, soon enough, they would have to start work on Final Fantasy VII: Rebirth - and the second entry is the structurally saggy middle section of any trilogy. 'The game picks up in the middle of the story and it finishes while still in the middle of the story,' observes Yoshinori Kitase, director of the original game and producer of its modern reinterpretation. 'There’s no real clear beginning or end.'" While I'm closer to Ben in terms of my feelings about the game, I understand where the criticisms come from and I think even the devs are aware of those issues. In many ways, they stuck too closely to trying to slice out what would be the first half of Act 2 in a story without completely forming a story of its own from beginning to end -- at least in a way that feels truly cohesive. They have seemingly focused more on what the experience would feel like if you played all 3 games back-to-back... which isn't how we're playing them. I'm working on a big analysis that digs deep into that so even though I think the final judgment on the game from the panel is a bit harsh, I understand why they felt the way they did.
Personally, I feel that this is a faultable flaw in where they decided to end the game, not an understandable inevitability excuse. The middle of the game actually has a pretty cohesive story arc that begins with the flashback and ends with the first Northern Crater sequence. That properly introduces and concludes the thread of Sephiroth's motivations, that introduces and concludes the purpose of the cloaked guys, that introduces and gives "A" conclusion to the unreliability of Cloud's memories, and it takes place only one or two locations after where Rebirth ended. It also leaves you with a perfect post-credits sequence (the curtains revealing something in the sky), as well as a perfect exciting opening set piece for the third game. It's also a point in the story where every major character is properly developed/exposed in some way. Would go a long way in demonstrating what the point of everything leading up to it was. On top of that, it leaves everything in disarray with TONS of twists revealed and mysteries to be speculated on. The perfect "Empire Strikes Back" moment (which for some reason, the devs kept alluding to, but didn't end up doing). Instead, they decided to end it randomly/anti-climacticly for the sake of something being an iconic moment, leaving an awkward story beat to begin the next game on.
@@richardkhchang for the most part, I agree. I was always in the camp that they should've ended at the Whirlwind Maze moment. It also gives the story perfect bookends. You start with Cloud's retelling of the Nibelheim events and end by proving that retelling to be a lie, which is also setup by Tifa in her conversations with Aerith and Cloud after the flashback. The payoff for that is now shifted to Part 3. It is possible that **IF** the entirety of the Trilogy ends differently than the original story and fully pays off the concept of worlds/changing fate, then this ending could work well for the TRILOGY in hindsight, but it's an awkward and fairly unnatural ending point for this story in isolation.
@@SubTXT_ It also nicely connects back to the beginning of the first game in a full circle moment (with the scene where Tifa reflects on what got this all started, fade to black and everything). It's really just an absolutely perfect obvious choice in so many ways. Insane that they passed up the opportunity.
@SubTXT_ only problem with ending at the crater is going through everything at the forgotten capital and then having to snowboard and travel a new area for hours on end. I dont think they could skillfully do that without it feeling weird. I couldn't imagine doing all this then carrying on for another 10 hours or more. This was the best place they could end it, unfortunately
@@MRayGames I think they could've trimmed down a couple of earlier chapters to make it work and could've shifted things around/removed some things (such as snowboarding) to get to that endpoint. But yeah, it would've been beefy for sure. But it wouldn't have hurt to trim down some things like the climb to Corel, box throwing in Nibelheim, cut a boss fight or two (thinking at least one of the 3 Turks fights and Palmer), or even a couple of the Temple puzzles to make it work. Overall, i'm fine with it, but there is some fat they could've trimmed on the margins to make it work.
I always love the effort and discussions that come from these. The recommendations from the cohorts got me to try Indika, Mouthwashing, Diceomancer, and so many more. Thanks as always MinnMax!
It seems like the narrative shifted completely on Rebirth, and I don't get why. I spent 6 months depressed that everything paled in comparison with it, no matter how many games I tried. I was just craving for more Rebirth, more perfection.
Beyond Minnmax, Rebirth is quite beloved. Only Astrobot has received more accolades I’d say, but yeah, here it’s clearly not a darling of the panel. To each their own, it is my personal goty
rebirth is hated on twitter and part of me feels like the internet hate mob influenced some panelists. Its okay to not like a game but holy crap they were talking like its the worst thing in human existence.
Not a big Rebirth fan but I was really impressed at how well Ben weathered that conversation. Most of the criticism was probably warranted but even still, I can't believe how reasonable he remained the whole time his gaming darling was under fire. I really respect that he was able to keep the conversation from turning too ugly, full props. Really fun discussions as always, even though the gang seemed mostly miffed by the end, I think this was a solid list. Thanks as always for the GOTY discussions!
It's wild to me how much of the Rebirth discussion is pushing the narrative that it's an objectively bad game and gaslighting Ben for enjoying it when it's the 4th highest critically rated game of 2024.
It’s not gaslighting, in a group of nine people seven had a middling to poor experience, one had a good experience overall, and one had an incredible experience. No other game in this 20 got that level of hate, games either had one or two detractors, only a handful who’d played, or generally enjoyed. If Ben didn’t have such a palpable love for FF7 it wouldn’t have made it to the top 20 at all. Everyone else here would’ve put it at 19 or 20 if given the chance. They pushed back when Ben was trying to put a game he knew the majority was not a fan of in the top ten. Again, it’s out of respect to Ben that it’s in the top 15 when this group had to bite their tongues to have it here at all
@@mctheplaywright I don't have a problem with it being lower on the list given the groups feelings about it. The gaslighting comes in with the amount of times they called it a bad game and questioned Haley and Ben's tastes for liking it. It's the difference of saying "I didn't enjoy it" & "you are wrong for liking it."
agree, that is the part which ppl had an issue with. Its fine to not vote for a game of course, but the detractors were laughing at how horrible they thought it was for 4 hours, and Ben couldn't even finish a sentence without a smug douchy comment from one of them.
Here's my top 10, because Hanson needs the Rebirth support! 1. Final Fantasy VII: Rebirth 2. Metaphor: Refantazio 3. Silent Hill 2 4. Persona 3: Reload 5. Balatro 6. Astro Bot 7. Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door 8. Sonic x Shadow Generations 9. Epic Mickey Rebrushed 10. The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom
The hate for FF7 rebirth on the panel is crazy :/ I loved that game so much and while it isn't perfect I don't agree at all with statemens like: the story focusses on the death of that character and there is no character development and arcs. Oh well, great episode nonetheless. Looking forward to these each year ^^
3:18:56 the reason why Astrobot do not uses real character names and/or games in the cameos is because it would change the rating of the game. It is the same reason on Fortnite; if they use a “Metal Gear Solid” brand, they would need to match its ESRB/rating. And that’s obviously a bad idea for a family game.
Boy, I hate Janet's argument about Metroidvanias so much, and feel the complete opposite about Lost Crown for those reasons. (I mean, I'm happy to just agree to disagree, but she was so condescending and presumptuous about it, too) It's a genre that gets thrown around too often but is very rarely actually done right/have examples that are typically missing what makes the style initially special, and Prince of Persia is one example of something that doesn't quite understand its charms and ends up feeling a soulless as a result (despite being technically competent as a game). Even something unanimously considered great (and that I 100% agree deserves it) like Hollow Knight is generally great for reasons other than its Metroidvania elements, IMO. Animal Well, on the other hand... beautiful, and one of the few that "get it". It's also not an argument that should have anything to do with traditionalism. I do sometimes feel that accepted design principles (often rooted in convenience and efficiency) outside of videogames often seem antithetical to what makes "art" work and thrive, though (and that that probably has something to do with the disconnect that some people have with the genre).
I 100% agree on the Animal Well point: I think it has the best exploration of any metroidvania I’ve played. The tools themselves are unique and allow you to experiment to make your own discoveries. (Also in layer one it’s very well breadcrumbed: you can finish the game without doing anything beyond what a standard metroidvania asks of you.) Of course it nails the art/vibes too. A true metroidvania’s metroidvania.
I’m so disappointed in everyone’s opinion about Rebirth. I was incredibly touched by that game. It has some of the best moments I’ve ever experienced in gaming and the characters are so awesome to spend time with.
@@animalbancho1726 I've been subbed for a long time and also support on Patreon and will continue to do so. I love the Minnmax team, just disappointed how much they shat on a game that I, and a good amount of people really loved
Man, I love you guys here at MinnMax, but its so hard getting through this FF7 Rebirth conversation! Literally wondering if we all played the same game lol. Almost everything about it is just levels ahead of most of the things I've played this year (and other years) in so many ways, but to each their own, I guess. About an hour in, VERY curious to how this list will end up. Some of these games seem awesome but wow.
Thank you, Ben. I feel like I wasted money on Balatro and I loved playing weekly poker for like 10 years. I can see the appeal but I don't understand how people had epiphanies playing it.
Finally finished the video. 😂🎉 I listen to the podcasts almost exclusively (except when you tell us to check out the RUclips version to see something specific) The Two Tens is definitely way easier to watch than listen to because it’s easier to keep track of the list. Im seriously considering going to the ten dollar tier for the pissy zone this year. Thank you all for going through this crazyness each year! … and finally Rebirth was robbed! 😂😂😂 Ben and Haley get it together! (Nominating Haley for the inevitable FF7 Final Game Deepest Dive)
Animal Well deserves more love. I think a lot of people are at that brink right now trying to decipher if more is still better (graphically, mechanically, content, etc), and I've definitely been leaning towards tighter, "less is more" design principles. 150hr JRPGs are great and all, but at a point just feels overwhelming. Especially when rewards for side content or the side content themselves end up not being worth the trouble, like JeffM was saying about Rebirth. It's why Vampire Survivors and Balatro are so popular; they're simple, yet dense. FFVII definitely wins the "Most Game" award, but it's bloatedness actively made me like the game less. Still has lots that absolutely warrants praise, it's not like the quality of most of the game was poor. That being said: 1. Animal Well 2. Astro Bot 3. Balatro 4. Elden Ring: Shadow of the Erdtree 5. Castlevania Dominus Collection 6. Final Fantasy VII Rebirth 7. Infinity Nikki 8. Marvel Rivals 9. The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom 10. Vampire Survivors: Ode to Castlevania 11. Planet Coaster 2 12. MLB The Show 24 13. Palworld 14. Pokemon TCG Pocket
I love big long GOTY convos but when the topic switches to “but yeah Astro Bot is almost too good so can it be number 1?” Like what does that even mean lol
I finished all the GOTY content and I think the thing with rebirth that bothered me the most was crushing and destroying a game/thing that someone really loves. I felt that has happened to many others including myself, and maybe that is why people are caring a lot. I have zero nostalgia for FFVII and didn’t play the series until 15 but it still rubbed me the wrong way.
@@minnmax9.2 on metacritic and a 9.0 user score. 4.7 on the PlayStation store, will more than likely debut to overwhelmingly positive reviews on steam, and you would’ve thought it was absolute dogshit if all you knew of it was from this panel. WOOF
It seems wild that Final Fantasy gets marked down so much because the ending ruined it for them, yet they were more than happy to play over 100 hours of the game to get to that point. It's like people who insist that Game of Thrones is the worst TV show ever made because it didn't quite nail the ending. Think of the good times, people, the GOOD TIMES! And they're also willing to allow games they couldn't even be bothered to play to rank higher. It makes no sense. There is also nothing about Metaphor: Refantazio that is better than Final Fantasy VII: Rebirth. Not a single thing. And this is coming from someone who a) put in over 100 hours into both games and enjoyed them both, and b) someone who probably doesn't even have FF in my top 5 of the year.
Game of thrones ending was legitimately bad and betrayed the characters. Rebirths ending on the other hand is legitimately compelling and MORE TRUE to cloud as a character than the original was.
@@cynicalidealist11 GoT's ending has no chance of redemption, i think its very fair to come away from that show feeling like youve wasted your time. But FF7 pt3 can retroactively improve Rebirth's ending if it pays off what theyre trying to set up. i enjoyed the ending anyway, but i think it should be considered more of a cliffhanger than anything
Listened already a couple weeks ago, but just want to say this years discussion was amazing! Rebirth robbed but the discussion was super insightful. hopefully Part 3 validates its existence for some
As a Leftie, I understand Haley's take on being able to play with one hand. I still found the button layout to navigate the menus in Lorelei really dumb. and it's in my top 10 aswell.
My top ten for the year, in order: 1. Drova: Forsaken Kin Balatro Helldivers 2 Animal Well Astrobot Rise of the Ronin Neva The Case of the Golden Idol Unicorn Overlord 10. Like A Dragon: Infinite Wealth
Seeing the comment section constantly mentioning how much this crew underrates FF7 Rebirth gives me life. its criminal how low it is on this list. Easily top 3 GOTY.
1. Ff7 rebirth 2. Astro bot 3. Thank goodness you're here 4. Stellar blade 5. Black myth wukong 6. Helldivers 2 7. Hellblade 2 (still need to finish, im assuming ill be around here with it) 8. Lego horizon 9. Metaphor (first game in years i actually regret buying) 10. Suicide squad (dont regret buying, it was fun but massively wasted potential Honestly, 4 and 5 are interchangeable. And i just dont get the metaphor hype, i like it less and less as the days go on Also worth mentioning this is everything new i played this year except for erdtree (i don't wanna count dlc). If i had played more, the bottom 2 would be gone
@@MitchReecherMusicI played it on steam deck when it was “playable” and loved it. It’s my number 4 on my list. Since I finished it, it’s been updated and now “verified” and I’m debating replaying it.
@@salmark9080 definitely look up a review or two. I really enjoyed the writing and found the game quite funny. But others bounced off of it. Which is fine. I also enjoyed the tactics. Each character you control has their own strengths and weaknesses. But some find the tactics a bit one-note.
Congrats @otgo for having some games games on your list that I don't recognize, seriously! Seems like most people's lists have very similar entries so a little variety is nice. :)
Thanks MinnMax for a great year! I’m glad people can come to the comments knowing full well that lists like yours are subjective and don’t follow a scientific method. And that we’re all just here to discuss and celebrate everyone’s different favourite games of the year. Here’s my top 10 1. Nine Sols 2. Balatro 3. Astro Bot 4. Tactical Breach Wizards 5. Minishoot’ Adventures 6. UFO 50 7. Arco 8. Shogun Showdown 9. Helldivers 2 10. Thank Goodness You’re Here
I forgot to put my top 10 game of 2024. 1 rebirth 2 Tekken 8 3 prince of persia lost crown 4 astro bots 5 wwe 2k24 6 Indiana Jones 7 balatro 8 The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of wisdom 9 call of duty black ops 6 10 black myth
This is a great discussion and list! Thank you so much for an amazing year of MinnMax! Here's my two tens just for fun: 1. 1000xRESIST 2. Minds Beneath Us 3. Final Fantasy VII Rebirth 4. Nine Sols 5. Lorelei and the Laser Eyes 6. Astro Bot 7. Paper Mario The Thousand Year Door 8. Rivals of Aether 2 9. Splatoon 3: Side Order 10. Metaphor ReFantazio 11. I Am Your Beast 12. Slitterhead 13. Dungeons of Hinterburg 14. No Case Should Remain Unsolved 15. Starstruck: Hands of Time 16. Until Then 17. Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown 18. Arctic Eggs 19. Mouthwashing 20. Arranger: A Role-Puzzling Adventure
I finished Metaphor and Infinite Wealth and it is no way it should be higher than Rebirth.. the technological advancement on that game is phenomenal and it pushed the industry forward than these 2 Sega games..
@@animalbancho1726 The game is already amazing, combat is addictive and the characters are written endearingly. The music is a massive cherry with whipped cream on top. The contrarianism you felt compelled to comment is so contrived.
@@powermaxx11 it’s absolutely not contrarianism, I love the original and FF in general and played 60+ hours of Rebirth. There’s a lot of great in the game but the bad is so unbelievably, profoundly bad that it colors and sours many of the games strengths. The narrative shortcomings are just too great.
@@animalbancho1726 I feel like people who believe the 'narrative shortcomings are just too great' have a limited view of what a narrative can be. I agree that the overarching story doesn't really progress very much throughout Rebirth, but I just don't think that matters even a little bit. The game is an odyssey. Is The Odyssey a bad narrative because Odysseus keeps getting sidetracked and doesn't immediately go back to Ithaca?
To everyone freaking out about the Rebirth takes, think about it from the context of a bunch of people who talk about games for a living. If Rebirth was the one game (or main game) you played consistently for months, you get so deeply immersed that the experience fully engrosses you. Underbaked or bloated moments are just an excuse to continue living in that world with those characters. If you’re constantly jumping between Rebirth and mid-sized/small experiences with limited but finely tuned systems, any issues in a game so massive that it’s inevitably uneven will be highlighted. Before working in coffee in college I drank the same solid dark roast every morning, it was smooth and always refreshing, if a little bland. Then I had to taste and describe coffee to people for years, and the imperfections and mute notes in that blend were exposed, and I wish I could taste it the same way. But, if it’s your job to get granular your palette will be different. Here, it means they go against the grain on one game, but are able to shine a light on countless other ones.
This exposes more about the limitations of criticism than the piece itself. The coffee analogy unintentionally highlights the double-edged nature of critiques: professional habits can sometimes dull the ability to enjoy a piece of work for what it is. The practice of critique is as much about mindset as it is about skill, requiring openness to the joy, surprise, and imperfections of a work. Critique is and must be utilized as a tool for understanding and reflection, rather than becoming a barrier to enjoyment. The coffee analogy illustrates this well. I can brew my own coffee in my own home with beans I purchased, carefully grinding them before putting in my french press. Yet, I might still choose to go to the nearest McDonald's to buy a cup of Vanilla Iced Coffee. Similarly, in games like Rebirth, we may have the tools to analyze every system and narrative thread in depth, but sometimes choose to immerse ourselves in the world, imperfections and all. This isn’t a failure of the game itself but a reflection of how professional habits shape our perspective. While granular analysis can highlight weaknesses, it’s equally important to recognize and celebrate the resonant experiences that games like Rebirth can offer when we engage with them on their own terms.
@ exactly! the inevitability of professional criticism is hypersensitivity, it’s up to the viewer/reader to understand that and decide want to take from it. I am a writer, so I take notes on poor story or characterization seriously. If I find a critic, regardless of medium, who I share similar sensibilities with, I will let story critiques determine the likelihood of me purchasing something. But, I’m not as versed in game systems or mechanics. So, I know I’d probably not bristle at a lot of the mission design or mechanical faults they found in Rebirth. I can’t fathom getting upset at a critics opinion, it mostly just adds context to how I will respond to their criticisms and celebration in the future, at the most I’d just stop considering their criticism in regards to the art I pick to engage with.
I feel like what you're saying is true generally, but Rebirth also exists in reference and in contrast to a foundational text that has a lot of historical significance in games, enough so that undercutting the context that Hanson has actually damages criticism of the game. I think Hanson's unique love of the game and how that ties into the original work isn't something to be dismissed or viewed as only a bias, but something important to look at as part where the game succeeds. THAT SAID, while that would be a problem in a standalone critique of Rebirth, this isn't a standalone critique, this is the group's year-end list and in that context it isn't a problem, but a necessary and important part of creating *MINNMAX*'s list. While yeah, I think Hanson's points should have been given more serious consideration, with that in mind it just... doesn't really matter if helps iron out the list. I think it's difficult for people to make the separation that it's about the group's list more than it is about Rebirth itself and to not take it personally. Maybe I would too if I had played the game myself. But that separation does matter, because it isn't really about us or any one game.
Great discussion. I played Mouthwashing based on MinnMax's recommendation, and I've just started 1000X Resist, so thanks! I haven't played Rebirth, but as MM is the only gaming channel/podcast I really follow, I'd assumed it hasn't been very well received until I saw these comments and decided to have a Google. Seems to be much more beloved than I'd have guessed - which is great news as I hope to play it one day. I wonder how it will go down on Steam... I don't think I played ten games this year but I enjoyed... 1 Balatro 2 Pacific Drive 3 Mouthwashing 4 Animal Well
some of the worst arguments i ever heard about rebirth like no story? no characters arcs?? like did they even play same the game? rebirth is is just far better version of remake, not sure how you can say that game is better when its just narrow walking corridors with some slight puzzles. combat is better, more people, open world, card game, more music, mini games
If you're sincerely asking, I think it's a matter of taste and nostalgia. I prefer shorter linear games to longer open ones, and I knew nothing about FF7 before playing Remake. So for me, Remake felt focused and interesting as it introduced me to a new world and new characters, but Rebirth left me behind by appealing mostly to nostalgic fans who wanted a huge open world. I'm glad Rebirth was for you! But it's OK for lots of people to feel differently.
@@kapsilon_nrebirth is about hanging out with the cast you met in part 1, getting attached and then realizing your time together as the original group has come to an end with a new adventure looming
@@salmark9080I really love that synopsis. I wish it felt that way to me. The alt timeline stuff was distracting and the new characters were bizarre compared to the core friends I felt I had made in Remake.
@@kapsilon_n The only new "core friends" in rebirth are cid,vincent and cait sith their dynamic with the party outside of cait isnt explored yet at all so it makes sense that they dont feel like friends yet but everyone else cloud,tifa,aerith,barret and yuffie have an even stronger bond than remake ever did
Wow. FFVII Rebirth seems to have stirred a lot of intense passion and defence in the comments. Maybe it’s worth having a MinnMax episode on FF in the future? Maybe on FFXVI, FFVII Rebirth and just FFXIV in general? Seems like there’s some more thoughts that would benefit from being unpacked from the crew in a dedicated segment.
definitely a lot to talk about regarding FF in general. Rebirth has one of the best combat systems in gaming history so it'd be cool if that was kept going forward. And FF16 was okay but didn't feel like FF due to not having a party to manage and fight with, so hopefully no more solo dmc final fantasies.
No other game this year comes close to Rebirth. It’s one of the greatest games of all time, not merely game of the year. Also Rebirths ending wasn’t just brilliant, it was better than the original version because it’s truer to Cloud as a character at this point in the story. This is an intricate exploration of grief, and what’s the first stage of grief? Denial. Much more compelling than him accepting it immediately and going snowboarding I’d say, and it’s a shame some people can’t appreciate that. It did also hit me emotionally however I understand that the true emotional climax is being saved for the finale when cloud has to accept her loss. And I’m cool with that as it is structured as a trilogy. Return of the king emotional payoff isn’t going to happen at the end of two towers. Also no character arcs? Seriously what is this guy smoking? That’s just objectively incorrect.
www.patreon.com/minnmax - Unlock the extended "Pissy Zone" debate by supporting MinnMax at the $10 Backstage Pass tier.
Would you ever make this free down the road? I love your content and want to support y’all but I’m so broke.
@@Nateಠ_ಠTotally get it, but no I think this will always be locked up. Too hot to handle. That said, if you’re super interested you can save up $10 throughout the year and then just try it for one month?
How long is the pissy pod, please?
As a scorned Rebirth fan, the $10 fee was absolutely worth the catharsis that came along with hearing all the piss in this pissy zone.
@@rinaldus4512 Well that's tempting.
I said this the last few gotys, but it bears repeating how listenable you've made a 9-person podcast. It just shouldn't work, and you guys have nailed it so many times over.
Hey, thanks! We appreciate it.
Congratulations both to FF7 Rebirth for winning "Most Despised" and to Ben Hanson for "Saddest Man".
Lmfao
@@leorolando1924 The disrespect for Rebirth was wild
Agree with the other comments that the Rebirth stuff felt needlessly harsh. For a game with so much joy, it kinda feels like beating up Big Bird. (Also, the Rocket League minigame is fun!) The overworld and side content can get tedious, but that doesn't distract from the incredibly deep combat and sweet character moments.
Wish enough of the panel knew about Granblue Fantasy to stick it on their "Best Game None of Us Have Played" list!
1. Metaphor Refantazio
2. Astro Bot
3. 1000xResist
4. Final Fantasy VII Rebirth
5. Shin Megami Tensei V: Vengeance
6. Elden Ring: Shadow of the Erdtree
7. Like a Dragon: Infinite Wealth
8. Final Fantasy XIV: Dawntrail
9. Balatro
10. Granblue Fantasy: Relink
Rebirth has no character arcs? What game was he playing
hansons solo defence of rebirth was like watching a man soloing a helldivers extract as titans approach and i havent even played rebirth. admirable and tragic, my favourite ff7 character moment
4 HOURS!?! Can’t believe the Hanson FF7 filibuster worked!
It just hit me that UFO 50 being on the list makes this a top 69 games of 2024 list.
@@danielgalletti3590 nice
The 6.9 Tens
Nice
FF7 Rebirth is absolutely my GOTY. I spent 125 hours into it and loved every minute of it. Love the varied opinions from everyone, but man im shook that someone would dislike it so much lol
the problem with rebirth, in my opinion, is the ending... the ending left a lot of questions unanswered, a lot... the confusion/worry it caused most players was big. I'm worried myself because I'm afraid they've gone too far.
But we'll have to wait for part 3 to really see what they intend to do with this trilogy. I won't be able to judge Rebirth definitively until I've played part 3.
I get that but for some of them to enjoy it for 100 hours and then hate it because of a 5 minute ending is strange.
Rebirth certainly isn't my GOTY, but I really have to question some of the cohorts arguing that there's no story or character arcs in the game at all.
I agree. Especially the character arcs. Like were you literally not paying attention to a single second of this game?? I just don’t get it lol
Considering the game is 75% character vignettes, its certainly.....an argument
They played an entirely different game apparently or just don't understand what middle chapters are in three part stories.
@@MRayGamesmost three part movies are character centric stories. Empire strikes back was essentially a character focused learn about the people you followed.
@danorganplayer I think when it comes to movies it can be a lot more forgiving considering you're talking such a small amount of time before you do get back to core plot.
Hopefully this becomes one of those situations where the next part retroactively makes rebirths story more enjoyable for a lot of people. I sympathise with the feeling that there's not much payoff in rebirth and it's mostly setting up for something later
Surprisingly the hottest take was Jacob Geller’s out of left field shots fired at a deck of cards
I’m still making my way through the video but the rebirth discussion was extremely valuable. I really appreciated everyone’s honesty. Rebirth was one of my favorite gaming experiences ever so seeing what did and didn’t connect with the panel was a great listen. Excited to see what ends up making the final list.
What a thoughtful comment, thank you!
Hearing arguments against Rebirth was honestly shocking. I don’t recall a game ever going from loved in the beginning to hated with this much passion. It felt like whiplash
Also hearing people make the argument they liked the game until they beat it AFTER last year arguing for Baldur’s gate 3 for GOTY when multiple people did not get past part 1 is insanity to me.
It’s not insanity. The games are ranked based on passion for the game at the time of voting.
You can’t wait until every single person finishes every single game before deciding what the games of the year are.
2024’s goty would be posted in 2040.
Spoilers for JeffM's list - that twist was absolutely fantastic 🎉
2:36:50
28:20 Poor Ben really does try to hear people out and make his arguments, and never once do they let him finish a statement. I'm not even a Rebirth guy, but I admire his patience.
This take is ridiculous 7 people here wouldn’t have it in the top 20 at all, one would probably place it in the bottom five, and Ben loved it. Somehow that math ends up with it at 15, only because they value Ben’s perspective.
Him pushing for it any higher, knowing the vibe of the room, was never going to go well.
Every other game here was either universally at least admired, played by only a few, or had 2 or 3 detractors at the most (and even those had less intense critiques)
I’m not saying I agree with the placement, haven’t played either remake. But acting like the game that Ben liked, and nearly everyone else had issues with, deserved any higher placement is crazy.
If it was up to a clear vote it wouldn’t be here at all
@@mctheplaywright Mate the comment you're responding to isn't about Rebirth's placement on the list at all, not sure where that rant came from.
@@mctheplaywright Then how do you justify Forbidden west getting #8 two years ago? That game had 1 champion (Janet) and everyone else was lukewarm to negative on it. Rebirth was #1 on Ben's list and like 6 on Haley's, it should have been higher.
I agree. I knew I was going to hate the discussion surrounding Rebirth after last week when Ben was directly asked about it and then a couple seconds later dismissed with "I don't want to hear about Rebirth anymore than I have to" 🫠 I wasn't expecting Rebirth to be in the top 5 but at least give the man a chance to make his case.
@@brucewayne404 They're just white knighting on every negative comment on the video.
I find it astonishing how so many people disliked Rebirth. Such an abundance of creativity, craft, passion and heart were poured into the making of this game unlike any other this year of this scale except Metaphor and maybe Infinite Wealth. Sure it's not perfect but the overall experience was unforgettable. Everyone keeps complaining about the game being bloated and while that is somewhat true, the majority of mini games and activities were completely optional. I completely disregard any criticism regarding the characters as the character work was some of the best I've seen. The plot admittedly did have its ups and downs but regardless, I've steadily sunk over 250 hours into Rebirth and I've treasured the vast majority of it. Hands down one of the greatest experiences of my 20+ years of gaming
Not only a technical marvel for how pretty it looks, not only a fantastically remade soundtrack with a few new additions, not only top-notch voice acting, Rebirth is just stupidly fun to play. A video game-ass video game.
I think it will get more love now it’s on PC. I also think the majority really enjoyed it too. It’s topped a number of lists on other popular YT channels publications.
It has one of the highest metacritic scores from both players and reviewers in 2024. It may not have met square’s expectations but it’s still one of the best selling games of the year(won an award for being one of the best selling Asian games) despite being on one platform. it won a number of awards at various ceremonies such as best narrative.
I do get some of the criticisms - it’s a game that some old fans unhappy with what the remake is doing and refuse to play it. Others unhappy it was a timed exclusive. People also got burned out doing lots of the optional mini games.
Personally, I’m an old fan who loved it, and what it got right it really excelled in.
It definitely makes me a little sad to see the criticism the game gets. Some of it is well deserved criticism, but I feel like the game deserves a level of baseline credit for the fact that it is a AAA game that is weird and extravagant in a time where most AAA games feel safe and focus-grouped to appeal to as many people as possible. This kind of risk taking and weirdness should be encouraged and rewarded in my opinion, even if some aspects of the game could be better.
I just didn't agree with a lot of the changes. So many story beats altered for no discernable reason, extra scenes or boss fights shoehorned in for padding (Costa del sol felt like a Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain fight), major arcs like Dyne and especially the whole ending scene just felt like such a step backward compared to how those experiences played out in 1997.
Dyne's change was baffling, and the pacing was so weird to move the comedic Palmer ass-slapping scene from Rocket town to *here* of all places - destroying the mood of what was originally a heavy emotional scene that had time to breathe. Don't even get me started on how they ruined the ending either... that scene was one of the most iconic in all of gaming from the last 25+ years and they absolutely butchered it with sloppy multiverse jank and a dozen camera cuts that failed to even capture the pivotal moment.. what the hell were they thinking with that edit?
You mentioned that no heart or passion was put into much else in 2024 compared to this project but there were atleast 3 similar remakes off the top of my head (Persona 3, Romancing Saga 2, Dragon Quest III.. ironically enough the last two also being Square IP) which demonstrated a much more faithful adaptation to the source material. If you're talking about heart and passion, then staying true to the original and not rocking the boat too much is at the forefront of importance in my book.
To each their own I guess, Rebirth barely touched my top 20 last year.
Square has sadly been making divisive decisions with their flagship IP for quite a while now =(
Speaking as someone who enjoyed Remake: Rebirth takes the same great combat system from that game and puts it into an open-world context wherein it ceases to be enjoyable. My biggest problem with the game is that the majority of the time I'm playing it, it's not fun to play.
My top 5 would be
1 - FF7 rebirth
2 - PoP the lost crown
3 - space marine 2
4 - Balatro
5 - Astrobot
My personal top 10 this year would have to be
1. Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth
2. Metaphor : ReFantazio
3. Silent Hill 2
4. Astro Bot
5. Elden Ring : Shadow Of The Erdtree
6. Balatro
7. Tekken 8
8. Dragon Age : The Veilguard
9. The Plucky Squire
10. College Football 25
Those are pretty much all the games I had the time to play this year. Still haven't played (but want to play) Infinite Wealth, Black Myth Wukong and Stellar Blade. I'm almost certain UFO 50 & Indiana Jones would be in my top 10 had they've been available to play on PS5. I've mentioned this in a previous comment but can't believe that many people on this panel hated FF7 Rebirth that much! Out of everything I've played nothing quite compared to it, even though I'm having an amazing time with Metaphor over 20 hours in so far.
ALSO put the most time into Baldur's Gate 3 this year! lol, would probably be my game of the year 2 years in a row if it was possible. 🤣
Listening to this has me shook lol. Rebirth is easily a top 3 game released this year. For me it's Number 1, but the discourse is forced imo.
I started listening to Minnmax this time last year for the last two 10s. It had me absolutely hooked on the podcast and I'm so excited to watch again this year
Should have called Bosman for some Rebirth backup. The anti-Rebirth crusade was crazy!
Makes me sick. How are seeing something different than everyone else…. The volume of content with care and quality attached to it is like nothing else out there. Infinite wealth is close
And it isn't even the Rebirth criticisms that get me. They have very valid takes, but I can't believe anyone here has more passion for Indika, Mouthwashing, UFO 50, or Infinity Nikki than Ben has for Rebirth.
@@crosvale yeah this is dumb lol how are they serious about this
Yeah it wasn’t even reasonable. Janet’s hate was not fun to listen to and felt uneven.
Or just
I loved Rebirth and it's crazy it gets this much hate. Definitely respect that people can dislike a game. But I still think that Rebirth has the best cast of characters out of any game and it doesn't feel close by any other game. The Barrett story arch was just so good. But my top 10 is
1a Astro Bot
1b FF7 Rebirth
3 Silent Hill 2
4 Helldivers 2
5 Balatro
6 1000xResist
7 Infinite Wealth
8 Space Marine 2
9 Dragon Age Veilguard
10 Metaphor
The big one is here :). My own list of favorites seems to keep changing my current first ten is:
1. Silent Hill 2 Remake
2. FF7 Rebirth
3. Dragon’s Dogma 2
4. Like A Dragon: Infinite Wealth
5. Crow Country
6. Slitterhead
7. Indiana Jones and the Great Circle
8. Kunitsu-Gami: Path of the Goddess
9. Dead Rising Deluxe Remastered
10. Dread Delusion
I never expected bloober to take the top spot in my list. Also i'd kind of ruled out crow country after bouncing off it but then started a new game last week and it was such a blast. A top year for games both big and small :)
I wasn’t too skeptical about how good sh2 remake would be, but I was honestly surprised at how good it was. I recognize that the style of gameplay is not for everyone but I loved it just as much as the original
Silent Hill 2 is my number 1 as well and I can't believe it's not in the two 10s at all here.
I never played the original but the story telling is just phenomenal.
Slitterhead, Crow Country and SH2 deserve to be on way more of these lists. You have great taste, check out Arco
I'm not one to comment a ton, but FF7 rebirth getting that shakedown that it got was a crime. I think it's held to a different standard, and I get it is not for everyone, but still, it got SO much attention from the public and from this media outlet because of Ben's love for it that I think it's one of those "I hear so much about this game, I hate it" kind of treatments. It's a great, solid game with good character arcs and I don't really want the original narrative to drastically change at all but it's enough that it's interesting still. I think it should of easily been top 10
More like justified
I'm not a big JRPG guy. FF7 remake was my first final fantasy and it made me fall in love with the series. I loved that game, and I loved FF7 rebirth even more. It's without a doubt my goty.
That’s awesome to hear. The original FF7 introduced an entire generation of people to the series and RPGs that would not have gotten into the genre without it, so it’s cool to know that part of legacy also carried on.
Same
and Minnmax content of the year goes to.....drumroll please....
The Deepest Dive - FFVII Rebirth
Cloud, Barrett,Aerith and Red all have character arcs in this story. Tifa has a major character moment in rebirth. It’s surprising to hear the discourse on Rebirth. Jacob’s a bit outta pocket on this hating an entire game because you dislike where they took the ending seems more like you had expectations before you went into the game and when it didn’t hit the emotional response you wanted you disregarded the rest of the game. Oh well at the end of the day it’s their opinion even if I don’t agree.
Well said, i totally agree
I loved every single second of Rebirth . Clearly GOTY for me. But I totally get where some of the gang are coming from on this - excellent, balanced discussion!
Realistically Rebirth is the type of game that some people should not play - not in a gatekeeping way, but in terms of their likelihood to enjoy it. It’s the middle part of the story, it’s taking big swings, and it’s an unabashed remake of a PS1 RPG, for better or worse. On top of that, while Remake was the first part and thus easier to get into for newcomers, on top of being much more linear, this is much closer to what FF7 is actually like and doesn’t provide an overall conclusion to the story.
That being said, there is definitely a beginning, middle, and end to Rebirth. It’s just in a similar way to Empire Strikes Back, Back to the Future 2, or The Two Towers. So I push back a little bit on it not being a complete, independent story. The characters don’t end the game in the same place they begin it, they will be going to new places in the next part, and there’s a definite end to one character which has massive implications for the rest of the story. I think it’s just a big ask to get people to stay invested for another 3 years, and that’s where the struggle lies.
Some of the cohorts played it to review it, or to discuss in this podcast, and I think that level of pressure to play something when they probably aren’t actually that invested to play something they won’t see a full conclusion to until 2027 makes it less enjoyable. But for nerds like me, for whom this is one of their favorite game worlds, the whole thing is a win. Just a more niche one than a typical GotY.
@@NerdStrikesBack well said!
@@RobotStranding 1000 percent
I wish someone would’ve brought up the point that Infinity Nikki is a gacha game. The most predatory type of game on the market rn, imo. You gamble with your time and/or money to get things that help you progress through the game.
Came up in the building of the top 20, and it was pretty quickly talked down into being less predatory than most of it’s contemporaries. Which very well might be true, but having those mechanics at all feel like it should push it to the bottom of the list if on here at all.
@mctheplaywright Thank you for adding some context that I was missing. Unfortunately, it's the exact same as its contemporaries, imo. For example, in Genshin Impact you need to roll for characters that you need in order to access certain areas, fight certain enemies, or use different game mechanics. Infinity Nikki has the exact same thing, except you're rolling for outfits. Those outfits have the exact same functions as what I mentioned about the characters in Genshin Impact. I've played a few hours of Genshin and only a little over one hour of Nikki, but they gave me the same vibe of being built around their gacha mechanics. Everything you do is to earn currency to try and earn more characters/outfits. I think that all of the points about the game brought up in this podcast were totally valid, but it shouldn't be ignored how predatory it is behind that.
@@dylpickle1879 I 100% agree, shocked it was ever part of the conversation. Especially from a podcast so focused on ethics in games journalism and development
It's also a big budget game made for women by a studio that's majority women. For all of its talk about feminism and inclusion, where's the Western studio that would do this?
Oh what the fuck, they talked that much about it and couldn’t even mention that? I’m no longer interested :/
Always such a joy to watch these episodes each year, and this was no exception. Appreciate the wide range of opinions and takes we get to hear through this - thanks MinnMax!
Since Rebirth, Metaphor and Infinite Wealth took so much of my time this year plus some backlog games. I didn’t get to play most of these. So thank you guys for adding to my backlog and the great discussion! For the record though Rebirth rules!!
the FF7: Rebirth discussion was very difficult to listen to. It sounded so bitter and dismissive (for the most part). I get some critiques and some valid ones have been made by the group. But that doesn`t account for the not so subtle hate. Ben needed Bosman and Max`s backup.
It was really disappointing.I get the game is not everyone’s cup of tea and it certainly isn’t perfect, but anyone listening to this wouldn’t be able to guess Rebirth is one of the best reviewed games of the year .. by a lot.
So were hundred of critics just wrong? I really hope going forward Ben is able to include folks who can give a different perspective bc this one felt incredibly bitter.
Not sure how Rebirth landed so low yet a game like Forbidden West made like their number 8 spot that year. Forbidden west had one person championing it (Janet) and everyone else was lukewarm to negative on it yet it still made the top 10. I feel bad for Ben, he needed more backup
The problem is that some of the cohorts played it in spite of genuinely disliking it. I won’t make some grand statement about whether they are justified in that, but I do think continuing to play something that you aren’t enjoying just to see the end can lead to intense bitterness, and that can fester over the course of nearly a year. Jacob, for example, finished Rebirth before it officially released, so he’s had over 300 days to sour on the game.
It’s partly just the flaw of this type of cooperative list creation. Ordinarily, listing your favorite games of the year is about talking about what you liked, not what you didn’t. But when you’ve got 9 people working together, that’s a lot of clashing opinions.
I do think Rebirth suffered a lot more than games have previously for the MinnMax list when they are beloved by one person and mostly not cared for by the rest. Last year, for example, Hitman climbed the ranks off of extreme passion from one person, slight passion from another, and relative ambivalence from the rest. To me, that’s a good thing, if that passion is so bright that it makes everyone feel that good to hear about. But I think this year, because Ben is the “Leader” of MinnMax, he probably doesn’t want to push too hard for something to be higher when it’s up against vehement dislike from other cohorts. Which is fair.
@@midnightdarling7503not just critics, it has a high metacritic for players too. It won various awards like best narrative, best director, best selling Asian game (along with Wukong and Stella blade). It was top in many other peoples lists like skill up’s and various publications.
They are the outliers, really, who didn’t get on with the game, which is fair enough but not truly representative of how much it was loved.
@@NerdStrikesBack I am willing to make the argument that if a game elicits that kind of emotions (good or bad), it confronts you with something worth diving into! A introspection or A Deepest Dive into yourself, instead of the medium of critique (which can only serves as a catalyst for something dormant).
Leo’s The Finals and Jeff M’s UFO50 plot twists were so entertaining I was howling along on in my car, love this group so much!
I think Rebirth is a masterpiece. Its crazy how people can have such a different perspective on something that I think is a miracle got made. Great and varied gameplay, tons of content, good exploration, deep combat, incredible graphics and cinematics, the best cast of characters in gaming.
I'm right there with you. After 180 hours, two full playthroughs and a platinum trophy, I still can't get enough. With Rebirth, the FF7 characters have gone from a cast I always liked to a cast I absolutely adore. It has the best combat I've ever played. And, you forgot to mention, it also has one of the best soundtracks in video game history. It's not that I only play and love Final Fantasy - I've played most of MinnMax's Top Ten, and I'd agree that most of them are great - but nothing comes close to what Rebirth has given me. Truly one of my favorite games of all time. Sad to see people go out of their way to hate it.
@@DerUserXim ashamed i didn’t mention the music. It’s between Remake/Rebirth and Nier Automata as the best game soundtrack of all time.
I still think how Square handled the development of Rebirth is amazing after Remake. It really feels like one of those near perfect sequels where I got everything I wanted from Remake in it
Rebirth is a gem made of fun.
@ 1000 percent agree
The anti-Rebirth arguments went far beyond "just disliking a game." Wtf is wrong with them?
I'm just here adding to the comment total.
same
People are allowed to have different opinions than you. People are allowed to have different opinions than you. People are allowed to have different opinions than you. People are allowed to have different opinions than you. People are allowed to have different opinions than you. People are allowed to have different opinions than you. People are allowed to have different opinions than you.
Totally agree! Thats what makes this podcast so good. Still surprised with the hate for Rebirth but I respect everyone’s opinions! Great job team
100% and people are allowed to be annoyed by those opinions.
A panel comprised of 78% Rebirth haters when the game is at 92 on Metacritic is pretty wild.
Yes, but we’re also allowed to say some opinions are dumb. Saying rebirth has no character arcs is a dumb opinion. It’s objectively false.
I don't think anyone here is actually arguing that you and your crew are not entitled to your own opinions. But neither you nor your crew are entitled to your audience's unconditional acceptance of any absurd or mean-spirited arguments you make.
Faulty logic and inaccurate claims deserve to be criticized, whether they're coming from angry youtube commenters or pretentious gaming critics. As critics yourselves, who talk for hours and hours about this stuff - and ask people to listen - YOU should be the first to appreciate this fact and not try to shut down legitimate discussion.
And it is especially patronizing and hypocritical to act here like your own audience is toxic and needs a lesson in restraint - all the while members of your panel disrespectfully imply that anyone that likes Rebirth is an idiot and has bad taste. If you're really hoping to see more positivity in the comments, that positivity has to start in the content you guys create.
SPOILERS FOR REBIRTH:
While I do agree that both Remake and Rebirth are largely about Aerith, they are MORESO about Cloud. I think the ending of Rebirth is all about how Cloud's mental state is deteriorating, and Cloud's ability to grieve and accept what has happened is the actual heart of the story. I do think it's fair to be frustrated since this is the middle chapter, and I'm hoping I don't eat my words but my hope is that FF7R3 is going to retroactively make Rebirth make more sense and hit harder.
Also I don't want to just comment on Rebirth as that's been done plenty here lol I do really appreciate all the conversation and I think y'all are a wonderful group!
Do brand new players also think both games are about clouds mental state deteriorating or are people who are fans of the original game putting their broader knowledge of where the story is going onto the story in front of them?
You can watch a compilation of streamers 'reacting' to the ending and they assume Aerith is just a 'force ghost' aka lifestream blahblah magics, I'm not sure I've seen a broader audience come at it from Hansons pov about how its leaning so heavily into the cloud isnt blahblah stuff
Well said buddy. What we saw in the OG with Aerith has been done and they want to take you on a new journey and experience something which has more risk but I would rather have that to push art than have a 1 for 1.
@@salmark9080 2 games have been a diret 1:1
all this talk of SPOILERS UP WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SPOILERS is always followed by the exact stuff that happened in the 1997 game
Did Jacob’s take on FF7 Rebirth stem from him not getting a date with Tifa?
Losing my mind watching the discussion about final fantasy 7 Rebirth.
That being said, you guys rock
yeah its rough
@@richardgagnon4317 me too!!!
It’s really interesting to see how many people vividly dislike Rebirth. I absolutely loved the game and discourse it cost. Especially when it feels like we played different games when it comes to how they viewed the characters moments or arcs
Me too 😭
i like how everyone starts defending their passion projects while jacob just sits there in silence having given up nine sols completely after the last video 🤭
FF7 Rebirth is definitely my GOTY followed closely by Metaphor, Infinite Wealth and Mouthwashing.
I don’t necessarily agree with a lot of the flak thrown at Rebirth, but I do see where it’s coming from. The more I think about the Retrilogy, it really feels like it’s made for fans of the original. It does lean heavily on expectation and nostalgia. I don’t think it’s a bad thing, it worked to great effect for me, but I can see how uneven and disorienting the experience could be for newcomers.
The Retrilogy is a sequel to the entire FF7 compendium of stories (On the way to a smile, advent children, dirge of cerberus, etc), which almost no one understands except for me and like 5 other people on this planet
the thing I’ve seen plenty of people who didn’t play the original love remake and rebirth. I’ve seen more hate from fans of the original to be honest who just wanted a remake in one game with no drastic changes.
I loved the game and I can see where they are coming from with the criticisms but it ‘s an exceptional game that gets far more right than wrong. You can nit pick any game, really and as Haley said . Now that Metaphore has had some success you can see a lot of haters coming out, too.
I’m a newcomer and no, i think both remake and rebirth are masterpieces.
Rebirth overtook Bravely Default 2 as the most controversial game in two tens history
When it comes to Rebirth, Edge Magazine's January feature included an excerpt that really reflects why the story didn't connect as much for a couple of the panelists:
"Even while working on Remake, though, the team nursed the uneasy knowledge that, soon enough, they would have to start work on Final Fantasy VII: Rebirth - and the second entry is the structurally saggy middle section of any trilogy.
'The game picks up in the middle of the story and it finishes while still in the middle of the story,' observes Yoshinori Kitase, director of the original game and producer of its modern reinterpretation. 'There’s no real clear beginning or end.'"
While I'm closer to Ben in terms of my feelings about the game, I understand where the criticisms come from and I think even the devs are aware of those issues. In many ways, they stuck too closely to trying to slice out what would be the first half of Act 2 in a story without completely forming a story of its own from beginning to end -- at least in a way that feels truly cohesive. They have seemingly focused more on what the experience would feel like if you played all 3 games back-to-back... which isn't how we're playing them.
I'm working on a big analysis that digs deep into that so even though I think the final judgment on the game from the panel is a bit harsh, I understand why they felt the way they did.
Personally, I feel that this is a faultable flaw in where they decided to end the game, not an understandable inevitability excuse. The middle of the game actually has a pretty cohesive story arc that begins with the flashback and ends with the first Northern Crater sequence. That properly introduces and concludes the thread of Sephiroth's motivations, that introduces and concludes the purpose of the cloaked guys, that introduces and gives "A" conclusion to the unreliability of Cloud's memories, and it takes place only one or two locations after where Rebirth ended. It also leaves you with a perfect post-credits sequence (the curtains revealing something in the sky), as well as a perfect exciting opening set piece for the third game. It's also a point in the story where every major character is properly developed/exposed in some way. Would go a long way in demonstrating what the point of everything leading up to it was. On top of that, it leaves everything in disarray with TONS of twists revealed and mysteries to be speculated on. The perfect "Empire Strikes Back" moment (which for some reason, the devs kept alluding to, but didn't end up doing).
Instead, they decided to end it randomly/anti-climacticly for the sake of something being an iconic moment, leaving an awkward story beat to begin the next game on.
@@richardkhchang for the most part, I agree. I was always in the camp that they should've ended at the Whirlwind Maze moment.
It also gives the story perfect bookends. You start with Cloud's retelling of the Nibelheim events and end by proving that retelling to be a lie, which is also setup by Tifa in her conversations with Aerith and Cloud after the flashback. The payoff for that is now shifted to Part 3.
It is possible that **IF** the entirety of the Trilogy ends differently than the original story and fully pays off the concept of worlds/changing fate, then this ending could work well for the TRILOGY in hindsight, but it's an awkward and fairly unnatural ending point for this story in isolation.
@@SubTXT_ It also nicely connects back to the beginning of the first game in a full circle moment (with the scene where Tifa reflects on what got this all started, fade to black and everything).
It's really just an absolutely perfect obvious choice in so many ways. Insane that they passed up the opportunity.
@SubTXT_ only problem with ending at the crater is going through everything at the forgotten capital and then having to snowboard and travel a new area for hours on end. I dont think they could skillfully do that without it feeling weird. I couldn't imagine doing all this then carrying on for another 10 hours or more. This was the best place they could end it, unfortunately
@@MRayGames I think they could've trimmed down a couple of earlier chapters to make it work and could've shifted things around/removed some things (such as snowboarding) to get to that endpoint. But yeah, it would've been beefy for sure.
But it wouldn't have hurt to trim down some things like the climb to Corel, box throwing in Nibelheim, cut a boss fight or two (thinking at least one of the 3 Turks fights and Palmer), or even a couple of the Temple puzzles to make it work.
Overall, i'm fine with it, but there is some fat they could've trimmed on the margins to make it work.
I always love the effort and discussions that come from these. The recommendations from the cohorts got me to try Indika, Mouthwashing, Diceomancer, and so many more. Thanks as always MinnMax!
Rebirth took such a beating. It didn’t deserve that. I fear for Ben’s health when Part 3’s time comes to be put on the list.
It seems like the narrative shifted completely on Rebirth, and I don't get why. I spent 6 months depressed that everything paled in comparison with it, no matter how many games I tried. I was just craving for more Rebirth, more perfection.
I don't get it either for me there was no better game in 2024
Beyond Minnmax, Rebirth is quite beloved. Only Astrobot has received more accolades I’d say, but yeah, here it’s clearly not a darling of the panel. To each their own, it is my personal goty
The panel mostly likes high brow stuff they can feel smart about liking. Rebirth isn’t that
rebirth is hated on twitter and part of me feels like the internet hate mob influenced some panelists. Its okay to not like a game but holy crap they were talking like its the worst thing in human existence.
Not a big Rebirth fan but I was really impressed at how well Ben weathered that conversation. Most of the criticism was probably warranted but even still, I can't believe how reasonable he remained the whole time his gaming darling was under fire. I really respect that he was able to keep the conversation from turning too ugly, full props. Really fun discussions as always, even though the gang seemed mostly miffed by the end, I think this was a solid list. Thanks as always for the GOTY discussions!
Man the cohorts did Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth dirty lol minus Ben and Haley.
Can't wait for Bosman to ridicule this list on his stream.
It's wild to me how much of the Rebirth discussion is pushing the narrative that it's an objectively bad game and gaslighting Ben for enjoying it when it's the 4th highest critically rated game of 2024.
It’s not gaslighting, in a group of nine people seven had a middling to poor experience, one had a good experience overall, and one had an incredible experience. No other game in this 20 got that level of hate, games either had one or two detractors, only a handful who’d played, or generally enjoyed.
If Ben didn’t have such a palpable love for FF7 it wouldn’t have made it to the top 20 at all. Everyone else here would’ve put it at 19 or 20 if given the chance. They pushed back when Ben was trying to put a game he knew the majority was not a fan of in the top ten. Again, it’s out of respect to Ben that it’s in the top 15 when this group had to bite their tongues to have it here at all
@@mctheplaywright I don't have a problem with it being lower on the list given the groups feelings about it. The gaslighting comes in with the amount of times they called it a bad game and questioned Haley and Ben's tastes for liking it. It's the difference of saying "I didn't enjoy it" & "you are wrong for liking it."
agree, that is the part which ppl had an issue with. Its fine to not vote for a game of course, but the detractors were laughing at how horrible they thought it was for 4 hours, and Ben couldn't even finish a sentence without a smug douchy comment from one of them.
Here's my top 10, because Hanson needs the Rebirth support!
1. Final Fantasy VII: Rebirth
2. Metaphor: Refantazio
3. Silent Hill 2
4. Persona 3: Reload
5. Balatro
6. Astro Bot
7. Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door
8. Sonic x Shadow Generations
9. Epic Mickey Rebrushed
10. The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom
Yikes that Paper Mario game was horrible. I’ve never played a game with more needless backtracking than that.
The hate for FF7 rebirth on the panel is crazy :/ I loved that game so much and while it isn't perfect I don't agree at all with statemens like: the story focusses on the death of that character and there is no character development and arcs. Oh well, great episode nonetheless. Looking forward to these each year ^^
3:18:56 the reason why Astrobot do not uses real character names and/or games in the cameos is because it would change the rating of the game. It is the same reason on Fortnite; if they use a “Metal Gear Solid” brand, they would need to match its ESRB/rating. And that’s obviously a bad idea for a family game.
yeah, smash bros got absolutely ruined by its rating because of this
All I gotta say is the best New Show Plus idea could be a The Finals basic training by Leo Vader.
Sad to see the lack of love for Silent Hill 2 Remake.
My two tens:
1. FF7 Rebirth
2. Metaphor
3. Zenless zone zero
And that’s all I had time to play since those are three massive games! Rebirth forever!
Ff7 Rebirth is my GOTY
Boy, I hate Janet's argument about Metroidvanias so much, and feel the complete opposite about Lost Crown for those reasons. (I mean, I'm happy to just agree to disagree, but she was so condescending and presumptuous about it, too)
It's a genre that gets thrown around too often but is very rarely actually done right/have examples that are typically missing what makes the style initially special, and Prince of Persia is one example of something that doesn't quite understand its charms and ends up feeling a soulless as a result (despite being technically competent as a game). Even something unanimously considered great (and that I 100% agree deserves it) like Hollow Knight is generally great for reasons other than its Metroidvania elements, IMO.
Animal Well, on the other hand... beautiful, and one of the few that "get it". It's also not an argument that should have anything to do with traditionalism.
I do sometimes feel that accepted design principles (often rooted in convenience and efficiency) outside of videogames often seem antithetical to what makes "art" work and thrive, though (and that that probably has something to do with the disconnect that some people have with the genre).
I 100% agree on the Animal Well point: I think it has the best exploration of any metroidvania I’ve played. The tools themselves are unique and allow you to experiment to make your own discoveries. (Also in layer one it’s very well breadcrumbed: you can finish the game without doing anything beyond what a standard metroidvania asks of you.) Of course it nails the art/vibes too. A true metroidvania’s metroidvania.
Well said
Very big “I did not care for the godfather,” energy in this. Lol
I’m so disappointed in everyone’s opinion about Rebirth. I was incredibly touched by that game. It has some of the best moments I’ve ever experienced in gaming and the characters are so awesome to spend time with.
On the other hand I literally subbed over their criticisms of it, it felt cathartic to hear others as let down with it as I was
@@animalbancho1726 I've been subbed for a long time and also support on Patreon and will continue to do so. I love the Minnmax team, just disappointed how much they shat on a game that I, and a good amount of people really loved
What a wonderful year of great games and great podcasts. To 2025! May all your joys be Maximum and all your sorrows be Minn.
Man, I love you guys here at MinnMax, but its so hard getting through this FF7 Rebirth conversation! Literally wondering if we all played the same game lol. Almost everything about it is just levels ahead of most of the things I've played this year (and other years) in so many ways, but to each their own, I guess. About an hour in, VERY curious to how this list will end up. Some of these games seem awesome but wow.
1:13:25 Leo the Legend! Amazing moment, so much fun
Thank you, Ben. I feel like I wasted money on Balatro and I loved playing weekly poker for like 10 years. I can see the appeal but I don't understand how people had epiphanies playing it.
Finally finished the video. 😂🎉
I listen to the podcasts almost exclusively (except when you tell us to check out the RUclips version to see something specific)
The Two Tens is definitely way easier to watch than listen to because it’s easier to keep track of the list.
Im seriously considering going to the ten dollar tier for the pissy zone this year.
Thank you all for going through this crazyness each year!
… and finally Rebirth was robbed! 😂😂😂 Ben and Haley get it together! (Nominating Haley for the inevitable FF7 Final Game Deepest Dive)
Animal Well deserves more love. I think a lot of people are at that brink right now trying to decipher if more is still better (graphically, mechanically, content, etc), and I've definitely been leaning towards tighter, "less is more" design principles. 150hr JRPGs are great and all, but at a point just feels overwhelming. Especially when rewards for side content or the side content themselves end up not being worth the trouble, like JeffM was saying about Rebirth. It's why Vampire Survivors and Balatro are so popular; they're simple, yet dense. FFVII definitely wins the "Most Game" award, but it's bloatedness actively made me like the game less. Still has lots that absolutely warrants praise, it's not like the quality of most of the game was poor.
That being said:
1. Animal Well
2. Astro Bot
3. Balatro
4. Elden Ring: Shadow of the Erdtree
5. Castlevania Dominus Collection
6. Final Fantasy VII Rebirth
7. Infinity Nikki
8. Marvel Rivals
9. The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom
10. Vampire Survivors: Ode to Castlevania
11. Planet Coaster 2
12. MLB The Show 24
13. Palworld
14. Pokemon TCG Pocket
I love big long GOTY convos but when the topic switches to “but yeah Astro Bot is almost too good so can it be number 1?” Like what does that even mean lol
It’s ok Ben. We are all on your side in the Rebirth debate 😂
Talk about an out of touch group of journos.
@ I mean it’s their list so i can’t be that mad about it but to go beyond “It wasn’t my jam” to “it was actually bad” is craaazy.
Never have I heard worse takes on FF7 Rebirth than this video. No character arcs and progression when the entire game is full of it is insane.
Their arcs are akin to getting a new haircut
5:06 thank you Charles for acknowledging Arco!! Super fantastic game that would've been an indie darling in any other year.
I finished all the GOTY content and I think the thing with rebirth that bothered me the most was crushing and destroying a game/thing that someone really loves. I felt that has happened to many others including myself, and maybe that is why people are caring a lot.
I have zero nostalgia for FFVII and didn’t play the series until 15 but it still rubbed me the wrong way.
Silent hill 2 remake is absolutely one of the 10 best games of the year. Not even the top 20?? Demand a recount! 😢
Absolutely.
Rebirth is the most divisive 92 on Metacritic game I remember. It's mindboggling. It's definitely my GOTY.
Share your Top 10, please! Thanks for watching MinnMax.
@@minnmax9.2 on metacritic and a 9.0 user score. 4.7 on the PlayStation store, will more than likely debut to overwhelmingly positive reviews on steam, and you would’ve thought it was absolute dogshit if all you knew of it was from this panel. WOOF
I would argue Mario Sunshine is a much more divisive 92 on Metacritic but that game is also over 20 years old
It seems wild that Final Fantasy gets marked down so much because the ending ruined it for them, yet they were more than happy to play over 100 hours of the game to get to that point. It's like people who insist that Game of Thrones is the worst TV show ever made because it didn't quite nail the ending. Think of the good times, people, the GOOD TIMES!
And they're also willing to allow games they couldn't even be bothered to play to rank higher. It makes no sense.
There is also nothing about Metaphor: Refantazio that is better than Final Fantasy VII: Rebirth. Not a single thing. And this is coming from someone who a) put in over 100 hours into both games and enjoyed them both, and b) someone who probably doesn't even have FF in my top 5 of the year.
Game of thrones ending was legitimately bad and betrayed the characters. Rebirths ending on the other hand is legitimately compelling and MORE TRUE to cloud as a character than the original was.
@@cynicalidealist11 GoT's ending has no chance of redemption, i think its very fair to come away from that show feeling like youve wasted your time. But FF7 pt3 can retroactively improve Rebirth's ending if it pays off what theyre trying to set up. i enjoyed the ending anyway, but i think it should be considered more of a cliffhanger than anything
Listened already a couple weeks ago, but just want to say this years discussion was amazing! Rebirth robbed but the discussion was super insightful. hopefully Part 3 validates its existence for some
I don't understand the Rebirth discourse at all. The game is absolutely a 9. They nailed it.
As a Leftie, I understand Haley's take on being able to play with one hand. I still found the button layout to navigate the menus in Lorelei really dumb. and it's in my top 10 aswell.
My top ten for the year, in order:
1. Drova: Forsaken Kin
Balatro
Helldivers 2
Animal Well
Astrobot
Rise of the Ronin
Neva
The Case of the Golden Idol
Unicorn Overlord
10. Like A Dragon: Infinite Wealth
Seeing the comment section constantly mentioning how much this crew underrates FF7 Rebirth gives me life. its criminal how low it is on this list.
Easily top 3 GOTY.
1. Ff7 rebirth
2. Astro bot
3. Thank goodness you're here
4. Stellar blade
5. Black myth wukong
6. Helldivers 2
7. Hellblade 2 (still need to finish, im assuming ill be around here with it)
8. Lego horizon
9. Metaphor (first game in years i actually regret buying)
10. Suicide squad (dont regret buying, it was fun but massively wasted potential
Honestly, 4 and 5 are interchangeable. And i just dont get the metaphor hype, i like it less and less as the days go on
Also worth mentioning this is everything new i played this year except for erdtree (i don't wanna count dlc).
If i had played more, the bottom 2 would be gone
I have been playing games since NES, mostly jrpgs, and I agree that Ichiban is one of the greatest video game characters ever made.
fine Ben, since you asked:
1. 1000xRESIST (by a wide margin)
2. UFO 50
3. Balatro
4. Tactical Breach Wizards
5. Metaphor Refantazio
6. Minishot' Adventure
7. Crypt Custodian
8. Drova Forsaken Kin
9. Thank Goodness You’re Here
10. Thronefall
I love tactics games, am I crazy for not having picked up Tactical Breach Wizards to play on Steam Deck?
@@MitchReecherMusicI played it on steam deck when it was “playable” and loved it. It’s my number 4 on my list. Since I finished it, it’s been updated and now “verified” and I’m debating replaying it.
Played 40 games this year but missed a lot of these…. So tactical breach wizards is that good hmm
@@salmark9080 definitely look up a review or two. I really enjoyed the writing and found the game quite funny. But others bounced off of it. Which is fine. I also enjoyed the tactics. Each character you control has their own strengths and weaknesses. But some find the tactics a bit one-note.
Congrats @otgo for having some games games on your list that I don't recognize, seriously! Seems like most people's lists have very similar entries so a little variety is nice. :)
Not just number 1 for this year, Ben favorite game ever. Seems like an extra bump that could carry it. Even one spot more.
Thanks MinnMax for a great year!
I’m glad people can come to the comments knowing full well that lists like yours are subjective and don’t follow a scientific method. And that we’re all just here to discuss and celebrate everyone’s different favourite games of the year.
Here’s my top 10
1. Nine Sols
2. Balatro
3. Astro Bot
4. Tactical Breach Wizards
5. Minishoot’ Adventures
6. UFO 50
7. Arco
8. Shogun Showdown
9. Helldivers 2
10. Thank Goodness You’re Here
The way the episode cuts at the end, you know that piss was getting thrown quick lol
I'm glad that Ben at least understood Rebirth! I know it's a big MESSY, convoluted game. That's part of the fun. 😎
Sometimes, more is, in fact, more. Not every game needs to be a pure, crystalline, distilled experience.
Congrats you guys! Hell of a year.
Not sure why Sarah was clamoring so vigorously for The Pissy Zone, as she seems to permanently reside there.
I forgot to put my top 10 game of 2024.
1 rebirth
2 Tekken 8
3 prince of persia lost crown
4 astro bots
5 wwe 2k24
6 Indiana Jones
7 balatro
8 The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of wisdom
9 call of duty black ops 6
10 black myth
I’m with JeffM, UFO 50 blew me away this year. I’ve played over 140 hours of it and honestly think I will get to 200 hours this year
I agree and I like your avatar :)
This is a great discussion and list! Thank you so much for an amazing year of MinnMax! Here's my two tens just for fun:
1. 1000xRESIST
2. Minds Beneath Us
3. Final Fantasy VII Rebirth
4. Nine Sols
5. Lorelei and the Laser Eyes
6. Astro Bot
7. Paper Mario The Thousand Year Door
8. Rivals of Aether 2
9. Splatoon 3: Side Order
10. Metaphor ReFantazio
11. I Am Your Beast
12. Slitterhead
13. Dungeons of Hinterburg
14. No Case Should Remain Unsolved
15. Starstruck: Hands of Time
16. Until Then
17. Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown
18. Arctic Eggs
19. Mouthwashing
20. Arranger: A Role-Puzzling Adventure
YES!! THANK YOU FOR BEING ONE OF 12 PEOPLE WHO REMEMBERS (and enjoyed) SIDE ORDER!
Ff rebirth deserves respect
The FF7 Rebirth discourse is just wow...a bunch of bad takes from the cohorts this time around.
Edit: The community has your back Ben.
I think Rebirth sucks too. So no the community doesn't.
@@tucksrun The rest of the comments say otherwise. Try again troll.
I finished Metaphor and Infinite Wealth and it is no way it should be higher than Rebirth.. the technological advancement on that game is phenomenal and it pushed the industry forward than these 2 Sega games..
My favorite part about rebirth was its ending and im glad they did it that way because i felt more emotional in that scene than i did in the og ff 7
The soundtrack to FF Rebirth is better than half of the games on this list imo
Agreed.
Too bad the game itself is bad lol
@@animalbancho1726 The game is already amazing, combat is addictive and the characters are written endearingly. The music is a massive cherry with whipped cream on top. The contrarianism you felt compelled to comment is so contrived.
@@powermaxx11 it’s absolutely not contrarianism, I love the original and FF in general and played 60+ hours of Rebirth. There’s a lot of great in the game but the bad is so unbelievably, profoundly bad that it colors and sours many of the games strengths. The narrative shortcomings are just too great.
@@animalbancho1726 I disagree whole heartedly, easily the best game of the year, probably in the last 10
@@animalbancho1726 I feel like people who believe the 'narrative shortcomings are just too great' have a limited view of what a narrative can be. I agree that the overarching story doesn't really progress very much throughout Rebirth, but I just don't think that matters even a little bit. The game is an odyssey. Is The Odyssey a bad narrative because Odysseus keeps getting sidetracked and doesn't immediately go back to Ithaca?
To everyone freaking out about the Rebirth takes, think about it from the context of a bunch of people who talk about games for a living.
If Rebirth was the one game (or main game) you played consistently for months, you get so deeply immersed that the experience fully engrosses you. Underbaked or bloated moments are just an excuse to continue living in that world with those characters.
If you’re constantly jumping between Rebirth and mid-sized/small experiences with limited but finely tuned systems, any issues in a game so massive that it’s inevitably uneven will be highlighted.
Before working in coffee in college I drank the same solid dark roast every morning, it was smooth and always refreshing, if a little bland. Then I had to taste and describe coffee to people for years, and the imperfections and mute notes in that blend were exposed, and I wish I could taste it the same way. But, if it’s your job to get granular your palette will be different. Here, it means they go against the grain on one game, but are able to shine a light on countless other ones.
This exposes more about the limitations of criticism than the piece itself. The coffee analogy unintentionally highlights the double-edged nature of critiques: professional habits can sometimes dull the ability to enjoy a piece of work for what it is. The practice of critique is as much about mindset as it is about skill, requiring openness to the joy, surprise, and imperfections of a work. Critique is and must be utilized as a tool for understanding and reflection, rather than becoming a barrier to enjoyment.
The coffee analogy illustrates this well. I can brew my own coffee in my own home with beans I purchased, carefully grinding them before putting in my french press. Yet, I might still choose to go to the nearest McDonald's to buy a cup of Vanilla Iced Coffee. Similarly, in games like Rebirth, we may have the tools to analyze every system and narrative thread in depth, but sometimes choose to immerse ourselves in the world, imperfections and all.
This isn’t a failure of the game itself but a reflection of how professional habits shape our perspective. While granular analysis can highlight weaknesses, it’s equally important to recognize and celebrate the resonant experiences that games like Rebirth can offer when we engage with them on their own terms.
@ exactly! the inevitability of professional criticism is hypersensitivity, it’s up to the viewer/reader to understand that and decide want to take from it.
I am a writer, so I take notes on poor story or characterization seriously. If I find a critic, regardless of medium, who I share similar sensibilities with, I will let story critiques determine the likelihood of me purchasing something.
But, I’m not as versed in game systems or mechanics. So, I know I’d probably not bristle at a lot of the mission design or mechanical faults they found in Rebirth.
I can’t fathom getting upset at a critics opinion, it mostly just adds context to how I will respond to their criticisms and celebration in the future, at the most I’d just stop considering their criticism in regards to the art I pick to engage with.
I feel like what you're saying is true generally, but Rebirth also exists in reference and in contrast to a foundational text that has a lot of historical significance in games, enough so that undercutting the context that Hanson has actually damages criticism of the game. I think Hanson's unique love of the game and how that ties into the original work isn't something to be dismissed or viewed as only a bias, but something important to look at as part where the game succeeds.
THAT SAID, while that would be a problem in a standalone critique of Rebirth, this isn't a standalone critique, this is the group's year-end list and in that context it isn't a problem, but a necessary and important part of creating *MINNMAX*'s list. While yeah, I think Hanson's points should have been given more serious consideration, with that in mind it just... doesn't really matter if helps iron out the list.
I think it's difficult for people to make the separation that it's about the group's list more than it is about Rebirth itself and to not take it personally. Maybe I would too if I had played the game myself. But that separation does matter, because it isn't really about us or any one game.
Great discussion. I played Mouthwashing based on MinnMax's recommendation, and I've just started 1000X Resist, so thanks!
I haven't played Rebirth, but as MM is the only gaming channel/podcast I really follow, I'd assumed it hasn't been very well received until I saw these comments and decided to have a Google. Seems to be much more beloved than I'd have guessed - which is great news as I hope to play it one day. I wonder how it will go down on Steam...
I don't think I played ten games this year but I enjoyed...
1 Balatro
2 Pacific Drive
3 Mouthwashing
4 Animal Well
some of the worst arguments i ever heard about rebirth like no story? no characters arcs?? like did they even play same the game? rebirth is is just far better version of remake, not sure how you can say that game is better when its just narrow walking corridors with some slight puzzles. combat is better, more people, open world, card game, more music, mini games
If you're sincerely asking, I think it's a matter of taste and nostalgia. I prefer shorter linear games to longer open ones, and I knew nothing about FF7 before playing Remake. So for me, Remake felt focused and interesting as it introduced me to a new world and new characters, but Rebirth left me behind by appealing mostly to nostalgic fans who wanted a huge open world. I'm glad Rebirth was for you! But it's OK for lots of people to feel differently.
@@kapsilon_nrebirth is about hanging out with the cast you met in part 1, getting attached and then realizing your time together as the original group has come to an end with a new adventure looming
the funny part is how these guys scored Remake much higher in 2020 but now all of a sudden they become more critical
@@salmark9080I really love that synopsis. I wish it felt that way to me. The alt timeline stuff was distracting and the new characters were bizarre compared to the core friends I felt I had made in Remake.
@@kapsilon_n The only new "core friends" in rebirth are cid,vincent and cait sith their dynamic with the party outside of cait isnt explored yet at all so it makes sense that they dont feel like friends yet but everyone else cloud,tifa,aerith,barret and yuffie have an even stronger bond than remake ever did
Wow. FFVII Rebirth seems to have stirred a lot of intense passion and defence in the comments. Maybe it’s worth having a MinnMax episode on FF in the future? Maybe on FFXVI, FFVII Rebirth and just FFXIV in general? Seems like there’s some more thoughts that would benefit from being unpacked from the crew in a dedicated segment.
I really liked this idea.
definitely a lot to talk about regarding FF in general. Rebirth has one of the best combat systems in gaming history so it'd be cool if that was kept going forward. And FF16 was okay but didn't feel like FF due to not having a party to manage and fight with, so hopefully no more solo dmc final fantasies.
Check out rebirth deepest dive if you haven't already. At least 9 hours of content there and good vibes all round.
@@sonicstage1I agree but this criticism in the 2x10s is coming off as way more negative than maybe what the deepest dive delved into
No other game this year comes close to Rebirth. It’s one of the greatest games of all time, not merely game of the year.
Also Rebirths ending wasn’t just brilliant, it was better than the original version because it’s truer to Cloud as a character at this point in the story.
This is an intricate exploration of grief, and what’s the first stage of grief? Denial. Much more compelling than him accepting it immediately and going snowboarding I’d say, and it’s a shame some people can’t appreciate that. It did also hit me emotionally however I understand that the true emotional climax is being saved for the finale when cloud has to accept her loss. And I’m cool with that as it is structured as a trilogy. Return of the king emotional payoff isn’t going to happen at the end of two towers.
Also no character arcs? Seriously what is this guy smoking? That’s just objectively incorrect.