Additionally, those who used it may not have known they could use it. They may simply have been pushing the button when they wanted the extra power, without realizing that the extra power should not be available. Personally, I would find it difficult in the heat of the moment to actively remember that push to pass is not immediately available and therefore only push the button after the button is activated.
@@jonathanstensberg I tend to disagree, I think both of those guys are experienced and well-prepared enough to know that p2p should not be there. Just a feeling I have.
@@jonathanstensberg You or I may not remember, but I highly doubt that is the case with a professional open wheel driver, they are constantly adjusting the car each and every lap, changing braking bias from corner to corner. These guys aren't just pressing buttons looking for power they don't have, they all know the rules and when push to pass is active and they all are very busy behind the wheels of those cars so I highly doubt they just did it on muscle memory. What Cendric wrote sounds like an excuse and a attempt to save face. It could very well have been a mistake at St. Pete, but showing up at Long Beach with it shows they thought after St Pete no one would notice and they might as well keep using it.
I don't believe the excuse given. If the push to pass is not normally available then the drivers wouldn't have been pressing the button. The fact they were pressing it means that they knew their team had made it available.
Most importantly there is no way they didn't know once it worked on the start and restarts at St.Pete since two of their drivers used it, meaning they went into two more races, without putting the old software back in. At best St Pete was an accident but having it on the car at thermal, and on the car pre-race at Long Beach shows me they figured no one noticed at St Pete, might as well keep rolling with this until the Hybrids are introduced after the 500. My big question is would this have been a bigger penalty if thermal was not a none points race.
The only excuse I can think of is if the P2P automatically comes on once available if already pressed, ie if they held it *before* the line then the P2P (while functioning normally) wouldn't come in until they came to the line, effectively activating at the precise moment it becomes available. If that's how it works (no idea if it does), then it makes sense they'd be pressing P2P before the line, but then it begs the question of why Power wouldn't be doing this if it's normal procedure. If P2P activation works like DRS (manually activated only after passing the DRS line) then yeah, there's no excuse whatsoever
For me, the stranger thing at Long Beach was the fact that Will Power still has 175 seconds on P2P with 10 laps to go, more than everybody else. Another fail with that software?
I'm not so sure actually. A lot about driving is instinctual. So after years of not using the button it's much easier to instinctively not use it that to remember you suddenly can. No chance the team risks trying to remind him over the radio.
If he knew and didn't use it, it still makes him an accomplice. The least he could have done was to tell Cindric 'Look mate, that's cheating. You can't do that. And if I'm asked if I knew about it I'll say yes and that I talked to you about it'
Lol it’s on of the softest penalties for cheating at this scale in the history of sports. Even so they tried to cover it up until they were caught. The drivers and lead engineers should face a one year suspension at the minimum, if not an out right ban from the sport
"Cindric also acknowledged Newgarden and McLaughlin chose to use the illegal access to push-to-pass power, which calls into question whether the unfair advantage was known to exist in advance."
I'd be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt over St Pete, but no way those drivers didn't realize push to pass worked on a restart when it shouldn't, so why was the push to pass system still that way before the Long Beach race, because whether St Pete was an accident or not they had to know after that race and they saw no one noticed and thought they could get away with it for another round.
This is wild. Sounds like it was a very intentional breaking of the rules. And having P2P available on restarts when no one else has it would be a big advantage. I guess credit to IndyCar and Penske Entertainment for not sweeping it under the rug or something.
Like the time Ferrari were found to be using illegal fuel flow to their engines, and F1 settled it behind closed doors with them? I'm still of the opinion they knowingly allowed it because Mercedes were being so dominant at the time, which looks bad for the sport and its' commercial interests.
@@elemkay5104that's the way F1's rules are enforced for a reason. It's to protect the teams. If I wanted to know how another team was performing better than mine, I could protest it and be told exactly what they're doing is legal or not, but more importantly, HOW. Everyone would dragnet every other team with endless protests to basically reverse engineer them via the FIA. F1 teams can protest, but they can't learn anything they otherwise wouldn't know as a result. It really does make sense as long as the FIA act upon any infractions which, based on Ferrari's performance and even their customers, worked.
Indycar now has it's own Talladega Nights moment where the 1st and 2nd place drivers (Newgarden and McLaughlin) were disqualified at St Pete, it happened in NASCAR at the 2022 Pocono Cup Series race where Denny Hamlin and Kyle Busch were DQ'd from 1st and 2nd for illegal front bumpers. The same thing happened in F1 at the 1982 Brazilian GP where 1st place Nelson Piquet and 2nd place Keke Rosberg were disqualified for illegal water tanks.
I'm just surprised some engineer at Penske hasn't been indefinitely suspended. This is up there with the air pressure deal manipulation at the Daytona 24 last year.
Assuming that it was unintentional to begin with, I seriously doubt that the Penske data engineer(s) reviewing the St Pete telemetry would have kept it quiet. That info must have gone up the chain. I doubt that Roger would have been told and not have stopped it from happening again at LB. Cindric ? Who knows....
I wonder if Penske thought they could get by without anyone noticing until the hybrid engine is rolled out later in the season. It’s slimy behavior, and I’m glad INDYCAR brought the hammer down in response.
@@JonDoe-ln6nl No. A loophole would be something that's not directly forbidden by the rules and in a gray area, for example the double diffuser situation in F1. What they did in this case was directly prohibited by the rules. It was cheating, not exploiting loophole.
I see other comments have beat me to this one, but Will Power is the man for having the stones to lay off the button. On the other hand, the Bus Bros look like goons for using the button.
Honestly the fact the glitch was left on the car thru at least three races weekends, and was used by the drivers shows intent. Really the penalty might have gone far enough.
The only similar incident in Indycar that comes to mind is Jerry Grant at the 1972 Indy 500 - he was disqualified (or technically stopped being scored) after pulling into Bobby Unser's pit stall and refueling. There are definitely other examples in other series, but in terms of Indycar, that one just occurs off the top of my head. Good on them for taking these steps, though.
As bad as this is, you can't question the integrity of the series when the series owner's own team get the heaviest penalty ever levied in the history of the sport. I can't think of any other major motorsport where something similar has occurred.
A soft ball penalty after getting caught trying to cover it up. The drivers and engineers involved should be suspended for a year at the minimum, if not life time bans
Why does Newgarden's response to Ferrucci pop in my head when I heard about this... "At Penske, we care about details." Yep....the cheating details. 😒 Props to Will Power though.
Wow. My First Indycar season and we already got so much drama... - The indycar game, which does not happen - The hybrids which did not happen (yet) - the whole pato o ward shoots against the whole class (Chassis, development and so on) - and now this. Crazy xD
As a Josef fan, i'm not mad about the penalty itself, what really ticks me off is how long this took for it to be overturned. You had an entire month with a stupid exhibition race sandwiched in between to review all the data. Pretty sad that the practice session at the Long Beach GP is ultimately what triggered the whole investigation.
Unless Penske was hiding or falsifying the data. A Racer comment said that this was from the software from the new hybrid system which doesn’t report back to race control in the same way that the normal P2P data does.
Clearly Indycar never considered that a team would attempt to utilize software that wasn’t supposed to be on the car to cheat the PTP system so they weren’t checking for it.
First we had the Indy 500 shenanigans, and now this! Makes me wonder what all have Penske done in the past and haven’t got caught. I don’t care what anyone says, if a Penske car wasn’t in the top 5 at Indy, that one lap dash would have never happened.
At least one engineer/data guy knew he hadn’t reset P2P back to race settings. Beyond that, we can’t say for certain anyone else knew until the two drivers hit the button on restart - then they both definitely knew. But, ofc, seems very hard to believe they’d hit the button unless they knew. So, Occam’s Razor says both drivers knew. Maybe only the data guy and the two drivers knew. I think common sense says probably at least a few others knew. We’ll probably never know who knew what and when they knew it.
Honestly I feel there's a case there that if this exploit was still present at Long Beach the cars in question should not have been permitted to start.
was a similar case of unauthorized use of P2P in an DTM race at spa for like 5 years ago or something the driver was DQ for it! (the button worked even though the specified P2P time was out)
I love this!! My 1st thought was- why didn’t IMSA do the same after last years Dayton24. When the winner Meyer/Shank manipulated tire pressure for advantage.
Because IMSA is run under the same umbrella as NASCAR and over there, if you cheat and get caught after a win, you keep the win but its' a hollow victory because they strip you of points and purse and fine you for what happened.
This gives an entirely new look to the 2024 season. Those “Chevy’s” seemed so strong at St Pete, and the field returned to contention in Long Beach. Barber should be fantastic!
This violation seems quite severe. They manipulated the system and rules. Losing the points from the race and a $25K fine is ridiculous. They should also lose points on top of the race points, team member suspensions, maybe $100 K fine. The 12 for not using it should have zero penalty.
Glad this was found before the month of May at Indy. Obviously they intended to keep using it since it was found at Long Beach. I magaine if it was found after the 500?
No. Not even close. What Renault did was blatant race fixing. Nelson Piquet Jr. was asked to crash on purpose to help Fernando gain a strategy advantage… and this is the basis of Felipe Massa’s case against the FIA for rigging the 2008 WDC. Also, Fernando Alonso was allowed to keep his win amidst the controversy. What Penske did doesn’t even compare. Apples to oranges. Penske breach technical and sporting regulations around the use of Push-to-Pass. They used what was supposed to remain experimental tech from the Hybrid test for LB, which gave them an advantage during the race. It wasn’t race fixing but it gave Penske a massive advantage over its rivals and hiding it for a good 6 weeks.
@@JonDoe-ln6nl A racing incident is when neither driver is determined to be majority at fault. Herta running into Newgarden was 100% his fault. Intent has nothing to do with most penalties, due to almost every driver having plausible deniability, and it would be impossible to prove intent.
I have been following motorsports for 50+ years and one of the things that has always angered me about Formula e is the fact that results are changed hours or days after I have spent my time watching the race. Now IndyCar is in on this, changing the results weeks after the fact. i hate it. if the sanctioning body can't detect the issue before or during the race, to me, that is on them. What is next for IndyCar, they find out that Scott Dixon had extra fuel in his drinks system and they take away all of his miracle fuel saving wins for the last 10 years?
The rule in motorsports, Bfruce, has been (at least over in NASCAR land, which now includes IMSA and formerly Grand-Am) is that if a team is found to be broken the rules and won, you let them keep the win but take back from them/strip them of points and purse winnings. That's what IndyCar did here, albeit they also stripped Newgarden of the win and McLaughlin of third.
I guess this is retribution for what happened to Pato at last year's St. Pete race but I really do hate seeing people win races like this as i'm sure many others do too. I feel sorry for Josef as I think we all saw how much that win meant to him (along with the pole) but it does raise my suspicions that the fact that the software wasn't changed for long beach too makes me think this was done on purpose. Very poor from team Penske. This penalty is correct in my opinion.
Story from back in the day. I have to bring up some Penske racing history. In 1967 at the Nassau Governor’s Trophy race Penske entered two Sunoco Camaros - Cars #15 and #16. Car 16 had an acid-dipped body removing 250 lbs (below minimum weight regulation) The car won and it was only discovered afterwards at post-race ins. To stop this in 1968, at Sebring, a pre-race weigh-in was introduced. To get past this the Penske folks ran the legal “15” car through tech-inspection then they added a small #6 decal covering the number 5 on the “15” car and again ran it through tech inspection as car #16. For qualifying, they reversed the procedure enabling the acid dipped #16 car to qualify twice as 15 and 16. Well, as they said back then and may still be “If you ain’t cheatin, you ain’t trying”.
...he owns the very officiating body that just penalized him... that means he basically penalized himself. translation, he was caught by other teams and is now trying to cover his own tracks... PR and RP knew exactly what they were doing. Period!
This isn't the first time Team Penske cheated big time, but it is the first time the team received a serious penalty. The year Penske decided to re-enter the 500 while still racing in CART/Champ Car, the team showed up at IMS with the same sponsors on the cars as in the other series, although, by government law, tobacco companies could not sponsor the same team in more than one series. Penske knew the law, but decided to ignore it. Not until just before Carb Day, did the Indiana Attorney General raise the violation of the law. Penske replaced the sponsor name on the cars and all pit equipment, and covered the name on crew uniforms, but otherwise made no changes in the appearance of anything, so the sponsorship was still very obvious. Penske's comment about changing the name--"It is the right thing to do." The right thing to do is to follow the rules before getting caught not following them.
I'm not sure that's the right call so long after the fact. If they had the information regarding the first race of the season, they shouldn't have waited until the second race, when they were caught red-handed in the run-up to the Long Beach GP, to penalize them for 6 weeks ago. If they had the info at the time, that's one thing, and the penalty would certainly be appropriate, but waiting until they're caught red-handed at the next race to assess that penalty six WEEKS later doesn't completely add up to me. Certainly, things have changed over time. Back in 1971, David Pearson won the first qualifying race for that year's Daytona 500, and two days later, was caught with an oversized restrictor plate (yes, those were used in the early 70s) in the final practice session prior to the Daytona 500, but because NASCAR couldn't prove they used the illegally larger plate during their qualifying race victory, they were allowed to keep not only the qualifying race victory, which counted as an official win (that would change the following year), but were even allowed to keep the other benefit that came with that qualifying race victory, their second row starting position for the race. They were fined $500 for using that oversized plate in practice, but that was the only penalty levied against the Holman-Moody team for that infraction.
This doesnt change anything, but my question is if push to pass was being deployed before it was enabled by race control, was it counting against their P2P allotment for the race? Helio's car was pinged as being illegal after winning Texas in 2013 but kept the win. Just for note of another time a winner was illegal.
I mean it’s an unpredicted violation, I’m not sure the precedent is the issue. I literally can’t believe there’s no inspection that kept this in check that’s preposterous.
Norris is so overhyped anyways and nothing special. Doesnt he have the most podiums without a win now? He cracks under pressure and has no racing IQ, and dreams of winning a race when he just lets Max through
Read the new additional Marshall Pruitt article. This is as bad as anyone feared. There were complaints from Penske onboards in 2023, and Chevy had to know… or should have
Is this O'Ward's first career win? I feel like one would want to celebrate a win on the day the race actually happened and not almost two months after the event? Also if the rule that was violated at St Pete discovered at Long Beach, then why wasn't it discovered at Thermal Club?
It's amazing that Newgarden and McLaughlin aren't suspended/disqualified for the entire season. They knew they were cheating when they pressed the push to pass button on the restart laps and did it anyway. Knowingly cheating in the middle of a race is just atrocious.
You are definitely correct. These guys know every single detail of these cars and it would show up on the computer every time. They cheated and got caught. Personally I don't think the penalty was harsh enough
Penske got caught with their hand in the cookie jar and they got the shit smacked out of them for it. I'm happy to see that just because he owns the series doesn't mean it gets brushed aside and ignored or settled quietly.
How refreshing to see the rules actually being enforced on the rulers...if only our government would enforce the actual rules against the current crime family in DC!
The Bus Bros are now the Disqualified Bros. Good job on the series officials catching this. My thoughts, effing Pato was amazing. He outdrove Cheaty Scotty, and could have probably caught cheating Josef in the prior restarts. The drivers and team willingly knew, and have now paid the price. All good.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
So Will Power knew push to pass was available and didn’t push the button. Good on him 👏.
He may not have known. If he didn't know it was there, he wouldn't have any reason to push it.
Additionally, those who used it may not have known they could use it. They may simply have been pushing the button when they wanted the extra power, without realizing that the extra power should not be available. Personally, I would find it difficult in the heat of the moment to actively remember that push to pass is not immediately available and therefore only push the button after the button is activated.
@@jonathanstensberg I tend to disagree, I think both of those guys are experienced and well-prepared enough to know that p2p should not be there. Just a feeling I have.
@@jonathanstensberg You or I may not remember, but I highly doubt that is the case with a professional open wheel driver, they are constantly adjusting the car each and every lap, changing braking bias from corner to corner. These guys aren't just pressing buttons looking for power they don't have, they all know the rules and when push to pass is active and they all are very busy behind the wheels of those cars so I highly doubt they just did it on muscle memory. What Cendric wrote sounds like an excuse and a attempt to save face. It could very well have been a mistake at St. Pete, but showing up at Long Beach with it shows they thought after St Pete no one would notice and they might as well keep using it.
Will being the good boy out of the bunch wasn't on my bingo card
"We forgot about the button... but didn't forget to press it" --Penske
Exactly tf is that
This is the first and only comment that I did, and need, to read regarding this entire incident. Spot on and end of story. Funny...
Yeah just like they "forgot what lap they were on" during fuel saving and let Danica by to take the lead.
@@ILSRWY4 Good one!
I don't believe the excuse given. If the push to pass is not normally available then the drivers wouldn't have been pressing the button. The fact they were pressing it means that they knew their team had made it available.
I was thinking the same thing. Why would they be on the button if they know it doesn’t work until after the line.
And is why they got DQ'ed
And why was it *still* on the cars at Long Beech. Nope, this was intentional and if anything the penalty is too lenient.
Most importantly there is no way they didn't know once it worked on the start and restarts at St.Pete since two of their drivers used it, meaning they went into two more races, without putting the old software back in. At best St Pete was an accident but having it on the car at thermal, and on the car pre-race at Long Beach shows me they figured no one noticed at St Pete, might as well keep rolling with this until the Hybrids are introduced after the 500. My big question is would this have been a bigger penalty if thermal was not a none points race.
The only excuse I can think of is if the P2P automatically comes on once available if already pressed, ie if they held it *before* the line then the P2P (while functioning normally) wouldn't come in until they came to the line, effectively activating at the precise moment it becomes available. If that's how it works (no idea if it does), then it makes sense they'd be pressing P2P before the line, but then it begs the question of why Power wouldn't be doing this if it's normal procedure. If P2P activation works like DRS (manually activated only after passing the DRS line) then yeah, there's no excuse whatsoever
Tim Cindric to Josef and Scotty: “PTP is active on restarts. Don’t tell Will!”
I can imagine Oward buying groceries when he got the text he won lol
Chelas Elodias y limones 😁
Probably in the cereal aisle debating between Crunch Berries or Peanut Butter Crunch. O’Ward strikes me as a Captain Crunch guy.
Going to the cashier and saying: "hey i just won the St. Pete grand prix"
*drops bags* starts jumping for joy***
"oh... Wow. Now, where did those Buy One Get One coupons go? My tum tum hungry!" or something like that
I have fully confirmed why I am a will power fan, good on him
I'm with you, man
Honestly, I’m not a Power fan, but he should’ve gotten bonus points rather than a penalty.
For me, the stranger thing at Long Beach was the fact that Will Power still has 175 seconds on P2P with 10 laps to go, more than everybody else. Another fail with that software?
@@Xethisnot strange at all. He was on a strategy requiring a ton of fuel saving. You can't really use a boost button while trying to save fuel.
I'm not so sure actually. A lot about driving is instinctual. So after years of not using the button it's much easier to instinctively not use it that to remember you suddenly can. No chance the team risks trying to remind him over the radio.
Props to Will Power for refusing to cheat. He shows a much higher level of personal integrity than his teammates.
Word
Or, they left him out. In which case, we get Angry Will.
Kudos to Will Power if he knew about the P2P exploit but didn't use it.
If he knew and didn't use it, it still makes him an accomplice. The least he could have done was to tell Cindric 'Look mate, that's cheating. You can't do that. And if I'm asked if I knew about it I'll say yes and that I talked to you about it'
Major? We had to promote this to Colonel Breaking News
Who, I would imagine, is the commanding officer of Sergeant Weather Report and Private Sports Segment.
😂
It was good to see that the integrity of the racing and of the sport was upheld no matter which team was responsible for the violation.
Lol it’s on of the softest penalties for cheating at this scale in the history of sports. Even so they tried to cover it up until they were caught. The drivers and lead engineers should face a one year suspension at the minimum, if not an out right ban from the sport
@@billkuduk1159as David mentioned in the video this is a huge penalty by Indycar standards. As they don’t usually dq people.
@@horsecrazyviking7121agreed. Hasn’t happened in nearly 30 years which shows me how rare this is
"Cindric also acknowledged Newgarden and McLaughlin chose to use the illegal access to push-to-pass power, which calls into question whether the unfair advantage was known to exist in advance."
I'd be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt over St Pete, but no way those drivers didn't realize push to pass worked on a restart when it shouldn't, so why was the push to pass system still that way before the Long Beach race, because whether St Pete was an accident or not they had to know after that race and they saw no one noticed and thought they could get away with it for another round.
Cindric, guilty
I just went to Circle K for a drink. I used the steering wheel volume button like it was PTP.
Pretty sure just activating it made me faster. LOL
@@davidhyson9910 Haha.
Very bad look for the series. Very disappointed in Penske.
This is wild. Sounds like it was a very intentional breaking of the rules. And having P2P available on restarts when no one else has it would be a big advantage. I guess credit to IndyCar and Penske Entertainment for not sweeping it under the rug or something.
Like the time Ferrari were found to be using illegal fuel flow to their engines, and F1 settled it behind closed doors with them?
I'm still of the opinion they knowingly allowed it because Mercedes were being so dominant at the time, which looks bad for the sport and its' commercial interests.
@@elemkay5104that's the way F1's rules are enforced for a reason. It's to protect the teams. If I wanted to know how another team was performing better than mine, I could protest it and be told exactly what they're doing is legal or not, but more importantly, HOW. Everyone would dragnet every other team with endless protests to basically reverse engineer them via the FIA. F1 teams can protest, but they can't learn anything they otherwise wouldn't know as a result. It really does make sense as long as the FIA act upon any infractions which, based on Ferrari's performance and even their customers, worked.
Indycar now has it's own Talladega Nights moment where the 1st and 2nd place drivers (Newgarden and McLaughlin) were disqualified at St Pete, it happened in NASCAR at the 2022 Pocono Cup Series race where Denny Hamlin and Kyle Busch were DQ'd from 1st and 2nd for illegal front bumpers. The same thing happened in F1 at the 1982 Brazilian GP where 1st place Nelson Piquet and 2nd place Keke Rosberg were disqualified for illegal water tanks.
Scott was 3rd
What about Brazil 1995? Penske should appeal it like they used to do.
The problem is that Penske Owner of the team and also owner of the series and of the Speedway
I'm just surprised some engineer at Penske hasn't been indefinitely suspended. This is up there with the air pressure deal manipulation at the Daytona 24 last year.
For real. If Penske himself was unaware of this and Cindric was, he should fire Cindric. Period.
Assuming that it was unintentional to begin with, I seriously doubt that the Penske data engineer(s) reviewing the St Pete telemetry would have kept it quiet. That info must have gone up the chain. I doubt that Roger would have been told and not have stopped it from happening again at LB. Cindric ? Who knows....
@noahs.9181 that's not how racing works. they all are cheating all the time it's just whether they get caught and how severe it is
Entirely the correct penalty. If it wasn't intentional, it was absolutely a *'should have known'* situation.
Impossible not to have known. All teams, especially Penske, go over all telemetry data post race with a fine tooth comb.
You MUST be a Penske fan !
I wonder if Penske thought they could get by without anyone noticing until the hybrid engine is rolled out later in the season. It’s slimy behavior, and I’m glad INDYCAR brought the hammer down in response.
No. Roger finds loopholes and exploits them (see Indy w Mercedes-Ilmor), but I don’t believe he is a cheat.
This may be different.
@@JonDoe-ln6nl "finding loopholes" is the politically correct way of admitting you cheated.
@@JonDoe-ln6nl No. A loophole would be something that's not directly forbidden by the rules and in a gray area, for example the double diffuser situation in F1. What they did in this case was directly prohibited by the rules. It was cheating, not exploiting loophole.
Wow you broke this story for me. I had no idea this happened. Thank you for covering this breaking news
I see other comments have beat me to this one, but Will Power is the man for having the stones to lay off the button. On the other hand, the Bus Bros look like goons for using the button.
As soon as I saw the news I just knew this video was coming any minute lol
They should have gotten a points penalty for Long Beach as well since they intended to use it there too.
Honestly the fact the glitch was left on the car thru at least three races weekends, and was used by the drivers shows intent. Really the penalty might have gone far enough.
The only similar incident in Indycar that comes to mind is Jerry Grant at the 1972 Indy 500 - he was disqualified (or technically stopped being scored) after pulling into Bobby Unser's pit stall and refueling. There are definitely other examples in other series, but in terms of Indycar, that one just occurs off the top of my head. Good on them for taking these steps, though.
I'm glad Penske did this so you aren't lacking for content to make Indycar videos
Shits cray but I’m here for it
This is “the dog ate my homework” levels of excuses by Penske. Credit to Indycar for DQing them.
That Tim Cindric copped to it and fell on his sword does show a bit of class.
also credit to will power for haveing the chance to break the rules but followed the rules.
As bad as this is, you can't question the integrity of the series when the series owner's own team get the heaviest penalty ever levied in the history of the sport. I can't think of any other major motorsport where something similar has occurred.
at least that
You're right. I'll just question the integrity of the series owner's team instead, though not for the first time in the last 40 odd years
A soft ball penalty after getting caught trying to cover it up. The drivers and engineers involved should be suspended for a year at the minimum, if not life time bans
It took three days, that means a ton of lawyers and negotiations.
@@billkuduk1159 100%
Team Penske got caught with their hand in the cookie jar
Very well detailed video!
Why does Newgarden's response to Ferrucci pop in my head when I heard about this...
"At Penske, we care about details."
Yep....the cheating details. 😒 Props to Will Power though.
Yup! Has some explaining to do.
I want that video on what Zak Brown wants changed in Indycar...
Wow. My First Indycar season and we already got so much drama...
- The indycar game, which does not happen
- The hybrids which did not happen (yet)
- the whole pato o ward shoots against the whole class (Chassis, development and so on)
- and now this.
Crazy xD
I knew you'd be on this immediately! Crazy stuff!
As a Josef fan, i'm not mad about the penalty itself, what really ticks me off is how long this took for it to be overturned. You had an entire month with a stupid exhibition race sandwiched in between to review all the data. Pretty sad that the practice session at the Long Beach GP is ultimately what triggered the whole investigation.
Unless Penske was hiding or falsifying the data. A Racer comment said that this was from the software from the new hybrid system which doesn’t report back to race control in the same way that the normal P2P data does.
Clearly Indycar never considered that a team would attempt to utilize software that wasn’t supposed to be on the car to cheat the PTP system so they weren’t checking for it.
The question now is how long has Josef been cheating. They were gonna do it again in LB.
Roger Penske shouldn't be allowed to own both the series and a race team
First we had the Indy 500 shenanigans, and now this!
Makes me wonder what all have Penske done in the past and haven’t got caught.
I don’t care what anyone says, if a Penske car wasn’t in the top 5 at Indy, that one lap dash would have never happened.
At least one engineer/data guy knew he hadn’t reset P2P back to race settings. Beyond that, we can’t say for certain anyone else knew until the two drivers hit the button on restart - then they both definitely knew.
But, ofc, seems very hard to believe they’d hit the button unless they knew. So, Occam’s Razor says both drivers knew.
Maybe only the data guy and the two drivers knew. I think common sense says probably at least a few others knew.
We’ll probably never know who knew what and when they knew it.
NASCAR on tv= listening to Clint Boyer making jokes for three hours and racing for two laps.
Honestly I feel there's a case there that if this exploit was still present at Long Beach the cars in question should not have been permitted to start.
Roger Penske should not allow his teams to cheat if he wants to own IndyCar WTF
"if you ain't cheatin' you ain't trying'"... nobody can say the boys penske weren't trying
What could your excuse be for using the PTP when you know your not supposed to. Very embarrassing moment for Newgarden and Mclaughlin...
CH finished 5th in the GP of St.Petersburgh now 4th and now 2nd in points, Good, Great !
was a similar case of unauthorized use of P2P in an DTM race at spa for like 5 years ago or something the driver was DQ for it!
(the button worked even though the specified P2P time was out)
Congratulations Pato Oward
I love this!!
My 1st thought was- why didn’t IMSA do the same after last years Dayton24. When the winner Meyer/Shank manipulated tire pressure for advantage.
Because IMSA is run under the same umbrella as NASCAR and over there, if you cheat and get caught after a win, you keep the win but its' a hollow victory because they strip you of points and purse and fine you for what happened.
Scott Goodyear stayed out at the Indy 500 with a black flag. He lost the win in 1995 for passing the pace car early.
This gives an entirely new look to the 2024 season. Those “Chevy’s” seemed so strong at St Pete, and the field returned to contention in Long Beach. Barber should be fantastic!
When I woke up I thought it was for Long Beach and then seen St. Pete and was like oh boy
The fact they kept doing it is crazy
This violation seems quite severe. They manipulated the system and rules. Losing the points from the race and a $25K fine is ridiculous. They should also lose points on top of the race points, team member suspensions, maybe $100 K fine. The 12 for not using it should have zero penalty.
Glad this was found before the month of May at Indy. Obviously they intended to keep using it since it was found at Long Beach. I magaine if it was found after the 500?
Push to pass isn’t used on ovals.
@@freedom6919741 ???
Is this a bit like Singapore 2008 in terms of leve of controversy?
No. Not even close. What Renault did was blatant race fixing. Nelson Piquet Jr. was asked to crash on purpose to help Fernando gain a strategy advantage… and this is the basis of Felipe Massa’s case against the FIA for rigging the 2008 WDC. Also, Fernando Alonso was allowed to keep his win amidst the controversy.
What Penske did doesn’t even compare. Apples to oranges. Penske breach technical and sporting regulations around the use of Push-to-Pass. They used what was supposed to remain experimental tech from the Hybrid test for LB, which gave them an advantage during the race. It wasn’t race fixing but it gave Penske a massive advantage over its rivals and hiding it for a good 6 weeks.
So it only took 2 months to figure this out ……
After the Long Beach controversy & Colton Herta not being penalized, I won't be surprised if Josef Newgarden races with a *lot* more anger.
*Colton Herta
@@waltersobchak8080 You're right. I fixed it. My bad. No idea why I had Bryan Herta in my head there.
That was simply a racing incident. No intention. Perhaps the car in front of Newgarden should be looked at!? No harm no foul.
@@JonDoe-ln6nl A racing incident is when neither driver is determined to be majority at fault. Herta running into Newgarden was 100% his fault. Intent has nothing to do with most penalties, due to almost every driver having plausible deniability, and it would be impossible to prove intent.
@@Ultimate23Dragon to be fair I STILL call Pietro Fittipaldi "Christian"
Outstanding reporting David!
NO
I have been following motorsports for 50+ years and one of the things that has always angered me about Formula e is the fact that results are changed hours or days after I have spent my time watching the race. Now IndyCar is in on this, changing the results weeks after the fact. i hate it. if the sanctioning body can't detect the issue before or during the race, to me, that is on them. What is next for IndyCar, they find out that Scott Dixon had extra fuel in his drinks system and they take away all of his miracle fuel saving wins for the last 10 years?
Couldn’t disagree more. Cheating is hidden on purpose and good on the series for bringing it to light
Formula E do it at least hours after
Indycar 5-6 weeks...
The rule in motorsports, Bfruce, has been (at least over in NASCAR land, which now includes IMSA and formerly Grand-Am) is that if a team is found to be broken the rules and won, you let them keep the win but take back from them/strip them of points and purse winnings.
That's what IndyCar did here, albeit they also stripped Newgarden of the win and McLaughlin of third.
Nah, if the result was illegally obtained then the result shouldn’t stand.
I guess this is retribution for what happened to Pato at last year's St. Pete race but I really do hate seeing people win races like this as i'm sure many others do too. I feel sorry for Josef as I think we all saw how much that win meant to him (along with the pole) but it does raise my suspicions that the fact that the software wasn't changed for long beach too makes me think this was done on purpose. Very poor from team Penske. This penalty is correct in my opinion.
They had to have known about it because they were using the button.
Story from back in the day. I have to bring up some Penske racing history. In 1967 at the Nassau Governor’s Trophy race Penske entered two Sunoco Camaros - Cars #15 and #16. Car 16 had an acid-dipped body removing 250 lbs (below minimum weight regulation) The car won and it was only discovered afterwards at post-race ins. To stop this in 1968, at Sebring, a pre-race weigh-in was introduced. To get past this the Penske folks ran the legal “15” car through tech-inspection then they added a small #6 decal covering the number 5 on the “15” car and again ran it through tech inspection as car #16. For qualifying, they reversed the procedure enabling the acid dipped #16 car to qualify twice as 15 and 16. Well, as they said back then and may still be “If you ain’t cheatin, you ain’t trying”.
Wait now WTF? St. Pete is going to be UNforgettable now! I'd already forgotten Thermal.
"If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin"..........oh wait, that's NASCAR😂😂😂😂
Mario got his Indy win taken away in82 I believe
...he owns the very officiating body that just penalized him... that means he basically penalized himself. translation, he was caught by other teams and is now trying to cover his own tracks... PR and RP knew exactly what they were doing. Period!
This isn't the first time Team Penske cheated big time, but it is the first time the team received a serious penalty. The year Penske decided to re-enter the 500 while still racing in CART/Champ Car, the team showed up at IMS with the same sponsors on the cars as in the other series, although, by government law, tobacco companies could not sponsor the same team in more than one series. Penske knew the law, but decided to ignore it. Not until just before Carb Day, did the Indiana Attorney General raise the violation of the law. Penske replaced the sponsor name on the cars and all pit equipment, and covered the name on crew uniforms, but otherwise made no changes in the appearance of anything, so the sponsorship was still very obvious. Penske's comment about changing the name--"It is the right thing to do." The right thing to do is to follow the rules before getting caught not following them.
Next season Indycar reality series starring Josef Newgarden and Scotty McLaughlin... Busted Bros... ;0]
Can u make video what is push to pass
They knew what they were doing ❤
BUT MY FANTASY POINTS
I'm not sure that's the right call so long after the fact. If they had the information regarding the first race of the season, they shouldn't have waited until the second race, when they were caught red-handed in the run-up to the Long Beach GP, to penalize them for 6 weeks ago. If they had the info at the time, that's one thing, and the penalty would certainly be appropriate, but waiting until they're caught red-handed at the next race to assess that penalty six WEEKS later doesn't completely add up to me.
Certainly, things have changed over time. Back in 1971, David Pearson won the first qualifying race for that year's Daytona 500, and two days later, was caught with an oversized restrictor plate (yes, those were used in the early 70s) in the final practice session prior to the Daytona 500, but because NASCAR couldn't prove they used the illegally larger plate during their qualifying race victory, they were allowed to keep not only the qualifying race victory, which counted as an official win (that would change the following year), but were even allowed to keep the other benefit that came with that qualifying race victory, their second row starting position for the race. They were fined $500 for using that oversized plate in practice, but that was the only penalty levied against the Holman-Moody team for that infraction.
My money was on Pato that day… thanks Pensnake 🐍
I would bet everyone has this on the car team Penske just got exposed 😂😂
This doesnt change anything, but my question is if push to pass was being deployed before it was enabled by race control, was it counting against their P2P allotment for the race?
Helio's car was pinged as being illegal after winning Texas in 2013 but kept the win. Just for note of another time a winner was illegal.
This is a rather convenient way to hide the 0.17 rating for Long Beach isn't it
Several race suspension's to all involved personal should also be handed down!!
I think Penske is being a little hard on himself. But he had to know he was going to catch himself.
I mean it’s an unpredicted violation, I’m not sure the precedent is the issue. I literally can’t believe there’s no inspection that kept this in check that’s preposterous.
Not a good look for golden boy newgarden 😢
So is there anyway the driver didn’t know it was working? I think not. Very disappointed !
The reserve driver for Mclaren even got a win before Norris. 🤣
It's his 5th win
he has won years ago
@@elemkay5104 where does that make my statement incorrect?
@@mrbungle3310 where does that make my statement incorrect?
Norris is so overhyped anyways and nothing special. Doesnt he have the most podiums without a win now? He cracks under pressure and has no racing IQ, and dreams of winning a race when he just lets Max through
Read the new additional Marshall Pruitt article. This is as bad as anyone feared. There were complaints from Penske onboards in 2023, and Chevy had to know… or should have
Is this O'Ward's first career win? I feel like one would want to celebrate a win on the day the race actually happened and not almost two months after the event? Also if the rule that was violated at St Pete discovered at Long Beach, then why wasn't it discovered at Thermal Club?
He’s won a few races previously
This is now his 5th win.
Prolly wasn't discovered at thermal cus it wasn't points paying so they were less strict or something
Because P2P was available on restarts at thermal
It's amazing that Newgarden and McLaughlin aren't suspended/disqualified for the entire season. They knew they were cheating when they pressed the push to pass button on the restart laps and did it anyway. Knowingly cheating in the middle of a race is just atrocious.
Bro I saw that Pato O Ward won but I thought ,did they do another race I didn't see
Roger "smokey" Penske
Yes, pretty wild, but here we are!
Will there be an investigation on the drivers? Would there be ramifications based on this? What would the captain do in this situation?
This is very reminiscent of the jet fuel controversy in NASCAR that implicated Michael Waltrip Racing.
Check Ganassi's fuel. I smell a rat with Dixon's alleged fuel savings
It’s Team Penske we’re talking about here. Few things, if anything, happen by mistake or by accident with that team.
You are definitely correct. These guys know every single detail of these cars and it would show up on the computer every time. They cheated and got caught. Personally I don't think the penalty was harsh enough
Better than a double DQ for a piece of tape (Pocono 2022)
Penske got caught with their hand in the cookie jar and they got the shit smacked out of them for it. I'm happy to see that just because he owns the series doesn't mean it gets brushed aside and ignored or settled quietly.
Oops, got caught.
Yes!! McLaren wins ! They deserve it and its good for Indycar. Indycar did the right thing. This wasn't a grey area.
This is like that time Bill France Sr stripped Bill France Sr racing of 1 of their wins 😂
Whuuuut
Al Jr was disqualified in 95
Paul Tracey still has a chance at 2002 ?
How refreshing to see the rules actually being enforced on the rulers...if only our government would enforce the actual rules against the current crime family in DC!
The Bus Bros are now the Disqualified Bros. Good job on the series officials catching this. My thoughts, effing Pato was amazing. He outdrove Cheaty Scotty, and could have probably caught cheating Josef in the prior restarts. The drivers and team willingly knew, and have now paid the price. All good.
Busted Bros
@noahs.9181 Haha that's perfect
How did this become known?