When the situation allows, Hi-Res mode results in less noise as well. Also, using masking in the sharpening controls in LR to avoid sharpening noise in the out of focus areas. But as you said, ETTR and keeping ISO as low as possible are the real keys to minimizing noise, and both of those techniques are so easy with Olympus cameras. Also helps to come to the realization that a bit of noise doesn't ruin an otherwise good photograph. Excellent video, Peter.
⌚ Timestamaps: 02:01 Tip #1 - Use as Low ISO as possible 02:20 - Use Extended Low ISO 03:20 Tip #2 - Image Sharpness 04:48 Tip #3 - Noise Reduction in Camera 06:49 Tip #4 - Image Stacking 08:50 Tip #5 - Exposure (ETTR - Expose To The Right) 11:48 Extra Tip #1 - Multiple Exposure for Less Noise 13:17 Extra Tip #2 - Focus Stacking for Less Noise
Peter, one method I use a lot is exposing to the right without the histogram. In aperture priority mode I use the exposure Compensation dial and simply raise the exposure by 1/3 or 2/3 of a stop. This, I find, is much easier than having to constantly check the histogram. It's so much faster. Usually, just over exposing by only 1/3 stop dramatically lowers noise without making the image looking too overexposed.
@@ForsgardPeter Could you elaborate on the primary reasons to choose Olympus over other available four third brands in the same class? I let my old full frame Sony Alpha 900 go, and for some time I have read about and listened to pro et contras. My current position is, that nothing matches Fujifilm X-T3 so far regarding video as well as still imaging. I have always loved Fuji's colors, not least the slides possible with the old Fujichrome 35 mm. While scanning the options for another month I have not ended my search for the optimal solution.
Tip1: use a wide fast lens to let in more light! Tip2: use a fill flash to lift the shadows, as well as the subject. Tip3: use a curve to darken the darkest part of the shadows, flattening out the noise. Tip4: use the zebra's a 100% to quickly set the perfect exposure to the (b)right of the histogram.
5b, a modern camera with a larger pixel pitch/size. GH5S 12MP does level the noise playing field producing about 2 stops less noise then the 20MP. In terms of noise you can approximate a 20MP M4/3 sensor with a 80MP 35mm sensor. The GH5s you can compare to a 48MP 35mm sensor like the S1R has. Tip6: Use fast glass and a speedbooster. Sigma 18-35 F 1,8 + Metabones speedbooster yields about a F1,2 amount of light.
This is my kind of video I would like to see in RUclips. Not the kind of videos denying paid hacks are presenting comparing and measurebating features of different camera brands and models.
Another very useful video, Peter. Just worth mentioning that, in Focus Stacking mode, the stacked image is a single composite jpeg, BUT if you're set to save LSF+RAW, then you'll also have 8 RAW image files that can be merged using third-party post processing software. So, while it's true to say that the output of in-camera Focus Stacking is that one jpeg, Use of LSF+RAW doesn't totally limit you to jpeg. This is how we professionals work in product photography. Rick
Greetings to you Peter and your viewers from the other end of the globe! Another good video sir, however, one key aspect I feel you could have included more directly (although in many ways you touched on it indirectly) is Shot Noise. This affects any camera no matter the sensor size in use. Shot Noise is though, happily, something over which we have direct control from the start at any ISO setting. Simply explained, if we imagine each pixel as a bucket for "light drops", the longer we leave the tray of buckets (the sensor) in the rain (light), the more drops will be in each bucket and the more even the signal (number of drops in each bucket) will be over the sensor. The shorter the period of time we leave the tray in the rain (i.e. the faster we open and close the shutter) the fewer and more scattered the drops will be in the buckets - and the gaps in-between where there are no drops at all are what we see as noise - especially in shadows. When there is a light drizzle (low light) as opposed to a steady downpour (good lighting) you will need to have the tray in the rain for longer to get a good number of drops in each bucket to ensure an even signal. So, practically: Using a fast shutter speed in low light (which is what you get if you simply rack up the ISO value) ADDS shot noise where a longer shutter speed - in the same conditions with the same elevated ISO - will tend to have less noise for the processor to handle from the start in downstream processing. You can test this by using the same ISO on a static scene and using different shutter speed/aperture combinations to expose it. Extremely fast shutter speed exposures (on any camera) will exhibit areas of visible noise in the shadows, even in good daylight, where a longer speed in those very same conditions will tend to smooth those areas out. Summary: If noise really bothers you or needs to be minimised as much as possible, start by using the slowest practical shutter speed in the particular conditions in which you are shooting (which by implication will mean the lowest practical ISO as well) wherever possible - even when using all the other tips in the video. It's always a balancing act between ISO, shot noise and required depth of field - but then, that's what makes our profession such a challenging one and keeps us on our toes every day. In my view noise, per-se, is not always a fault in an image anymore than grain was a fault with film. Sometimes noise can help form part of the soul of the image and add to its mood and message.
SouthernShutterbug. I love your buckets analogy. A very good clear explanation. And, once again, it's important to remember that our sensors only ever work at ISO 200, therefore, balancing exposure aperture and shutter speed around ISO 200 will always yield the least noise. Higher ISOs are actually a deceit. You get an underexposed image that the camera's software attempts to boost back to the sensor's native ISO 200 light exposure, which is where the noise comes from. Rick
I am used to keep the ISO as low as possible and I tend to slightly keep my shots underexposed, all these in fear of noise. A slight overexposure and lowering the exposure in post is a new method for me to try. Thank you for the tips (hopefully got it right..) !!
It is better to make the image as bright as possible and then lower the exposure in post. The image looks first a bit dull, but once you lower the exposure it will a lot better with less noise.
@@ForsgardPeter The reason I ask is that I have failed to produce good results with the bundled flash, both as a light fill in for outdoor portraits and also indoors at family gatherings. Either my technique is wrong or I need to upgrade to a more expensive Olympus flash, or perhaps both.
The most obvious one you missed is using a speedlight, if the situation allows it. In combination with ETTR, that becomes the most powerful noise reduction technique. I obviously realize, you won't be able to do that for landscape or architectural photography, but when the situation allows it is the best way to reduce noise. Hence carrying a flashgun with you. All the techniques you have mentioned are valid too, some more than others. But this is my number one tip. Flashgun use in conjunction with ETTR are, may be take several shots, to ensure highlights are protected, whilst using the ETTR method in conjunction with a speedlight. And if you really want to go in the direction of overkill, the methods I mentioned in conjunction with exposure blending in Photoshop. Followed then by processing the image to your intent or artistic interpretation.
@@ForsgardPeter Thank you for sharing your videos. I am not a Panasonic user but most of your tips are universally useful. Really appreciate it your videos.
Hi Peter; Stacking does not force you to abandon raw format as the Olympus cameras store the raw files that were used to produce the in-camera jpeg file. As such you can stack these raw files in post processing in photoshop or a similar program. Besides that Olympus cameras have also bracketing that can be used as a technique to reduce noise in post processing.
As you have said it, M4/3 has a worst performance in low light when compared to full frame, but even in dim light and up to F4.0, I'm confident that my good old Em-1 Mk I can handle it and produce great results. Never have I been bothered by the noise in my images...
Thanks Peter! Very useful! I have embraced some the "noise" or "digital grain" of the high ISO (>10,000) by converting my photos to black & white and treating the noise as "film grain"... 😆... Sometimes by playing with the shadows and actually deliberately underexposing them I can create moody images and lessen the appearance of noise that way... Anyhow those are two things I do in addition to what you have mentioned... Thanks again!
Hi Peter Interesting topic. I have an E-M5 II and I use DXO Photolab for raw convertion and noice reduction. And it is very capable of cleaning up noice without ruining detail. Lately I have experimented on creating "bokeh panorama" where I take 6to 130 pictures with a tele zoom and do the raw convertion of each of them with noice reduction, and then stitch them together in Image composite. Then I edit and reduce the size and the result is crisp sharp images where the remaining digital artifacts and noise is reduced many times by size in the process.
Hello Your tips are really good I just would like to ask one question. How is the image stack and done in photoshop to reduce the noise? Can you please elaborate on that? Thank you.
You need to make several images. Then you open all the images and have then as layers as a one image. If I remember correctly you then lower the opacity of the images from top top bottom. The amount of opacity depends on how many layers you have. There must be a few tutorials in RUclips.
Hello sir, can you explain how to connect a HDMI output for the Live View screen you can use an external monitor display while recording movies? for OM-D E-M5 Mark II thank you
To me, many of the in camera options are there for people that either don't want to or don't have the software to post process and you can still post process a jpg, crop, whitebalance, etc. just not as much room but if they "camera" gets it right and then you just want to apply your color curve...that is really the learn from the cel phone for the mainstream audience. That is part of why I say, partner with Google, run android on the camera (then you get the nice UI, apps run on it etc) the advantage of the "camera" is the glass, the battery, and the memory + plus larger sensor and IBIS -- but lots of good tips here.
“Noise” (actually signal to noise ratio) is not caused by iso. It is mainly cause by the quantity of light you gather to make the photograph. The lower, the lower the snr. Image stacking is just adding more light. Thinking that iso amplification is the cause of the noise is a mis conception. You can shoot at iso 1600 and iso 100 with (same shutter speed and aperture brighten in post) you we get similar snr, a bit better with iso1600 for other reason. The real advice is get the maximum of light as possible and you can get rid of advice 1, 4 and 5.
Peter Forsgård wasn’t my purpose, if you have an invariant sensor you will get the same SNR with iso 100 and 1600. If you don’t have one you will get a better snr at 1600 than 100 (for same quantity of light gathered). Meaning that in low light condition it is better to increase iso than brightening in post. This is due to the fact that when you brighten in post you are increasing signal and all type of noise. When you amplify with analog iso you are amplifying signal and all noises except one : the read out noise of your sensor. Which in most photographic situation you do not see because dominated by other type of noise (the photon noise).
Peter Forsgård all that to say that the advice 1) use lowest iso as possible is kind of twisted. The advice I would say is : - get the maximum quantity of light When you cannot get more think about what you want to prioritize: * dynamic range: better to shoot low iso and apply the right curve in post. * noise (specially in shadows) better to increase the iso. Cheers.
Hello Peter, I have ac question about developing RAW files. When I shoot the image, the RAW-file has about 15 MB. After processing the picture, the file only has around 1/3 of it. Could you please tell me why after developing the file of aroud 15 MB, it then only has around 5 MB. What am I doing wrong. I have an OLY OMD 10 Mark 2. Thanks.
Well expressed tips & thanks for doing this. I have a Panasonic Fz2500 1 in. sensor bridge camera which has a SCENE mode on the dial. Within this mode is a selection called ' Handheld Night Shot ' which is used in handheld lower light situations. It takes 5 rapid exposures, using higher ISO & shutter levels, which helps with noise as well as ' freezing ' motion , then - in camera - they are combined into one composite image. The results are very sharp & detailed. Regrettably Panasonic chose to leave this feature ' off ' of the higher end G9 camera, although it still resides in the G9's intelligent Auto + mode but here it's use is applied only at the ' desecration ' of the camera.
Peter - Very good video on noise issues, but you didn’t mention using the in-camera “curve” adjustment of contrast for high, low and mid bands of exposure. One can suppress blowouts (orange) and crushed shadows (blue in EVF). Some reports state that this method only effects the jpg image and not the raw image file. I see subtle differences in the raw image histograms for exposures with and without the use of the in-camera curve tool. What do you say re the impact on the raw file? Note that in video log LUTS, suppressing contrast and saturation work similarly, but do they work on video RAW files?
The first thing is to have the exposure right. Using ETTR and lowering the exposure in post will make noise less visible. I do not know how the noise in camera works in Sony 6400. Test that. Also try to use as low ISO as possible.
Hi Peter in Scene mode have you tried Hand-Held Startlight not for night but for low light? Using this scn mode it takes several images and stacks them. Give it a try and let me know if it works for you, I use it on em5 mkII.
Sir my camera nikon D3500 I take videos and photo in room it has some colour comes and the photo become not good it is also some mixed colours sir please help me
Thank you very much for your contribution as always perfect and very helpful. Noise reduction with focus-on stacking is spectacular. It works very well. One question, if I leave Noise Reduction (Auto) + Noise Filter (High) + Process enabled. Permanently low ISO (Detail Priority) for all photographs do you think that's not right? Can it affect the quality of my images?
Good ideas clearly presented; this is why I like your videos. Others have offered but so will I, adding light. At some point, using flash and other controlled lighting is an important option.
It's funny that I had to watch this to figure out how to deliberately create digital noise... There's also not a lot of information out there on what's actually happening during the internal process that creates it. If you know of a really good source of information on that I'd greatly appreciate being directed to it. Well done*
At 9,36 - dslr also have histogram, so even with optical viewfinder u r able to fine tune exposure. Also i use flash outdoor, which makes the subject pop-up everytime, even outside in daylight. Anyway, i'm looking forward for a mirrorless camera.
Question: Instead of multiple exposures (with a tripod I assume, and only for static objects) couldn't I just use a long (multiple second) exposure at a lower ISO setting, to get less noise? What would be de advantage of using multiple exposures (at high ISO) over a (long) time exposure at low ISO?
It is not always possible to use long exposures. If you are able to use LowISO tehn you should use it. Most likely the noise that comes from long exposures is less than the one that comes from high ISO.
Com es pot aprofitar la possible invariància de l'ISO d'alguns sensors en la postproducció de fitxers RAW? Quines càmeres Olympus tenen ISO invariant a determinades sensibilitats? ....... How can you take advantage of the possible invariance of the ISO of some sensors in the postproduction of RAW files? What Olympus cameras have ISO invariance to certain sensitivities?
I hav enot really tested properly if the Olympus sensors are invariant or not. E-M1 had partially invariant sensor, but not sure aboit the newer sensors.
Great video and very good said. I got my em10 mk2 and still also a aps-c nikon but as i am also getting older will in time get rid of all the nikon gear and obtain more mft gear thats smaller and lighter and still very good for my application.
Hi Peter, thank you for your interesting report(s). I take a small exposure bracketing (-1 / 0 / +1) on non (or less) moving subjects and than combine them into a single image in Lightroom CC (only one click!). So I have a good dynamic range and also a low noise - everything in RAW.
For bird photography shutter speed should be minimum 1/1200 and apperture may be f5. 6 what will be the ISO so as noise not to be experienced in the image.
Great methods for reducing noise. I never thought of using the 60 fps for getting images to stack for reducing noise. I have used Live ND in the E-M1X and also HiRes to get lower image noise.
@@ForsgardPeter Do you have a link to node reduction? Newer heard of it but I'm a Nikon D300 user and It’s time to upgrade that camera because it broke down after 12 years use. Not going to Z cameras yet but I saving to a D850.
Even base iso has noise. Compose and make proper exposure, Make another exposure at base iso 4 stops under. You should have done NR on each RGB layer and saved saved results . Apply saved NR to 4 stop under, then boost to proper exposure. This works because we are not boosting noise from base for high iso like what the camera does, but raising a "clean" image without noise. I can do this with my M8 which has really poor high iso image quality.
Solid info, Peter. Will try image stacking. My go-to method is proper exposure combined with low ISO. I hear that more cameras have become “ISO invariant” as a way to reduce noise. Would appreciate your perspectives on this topic, perhaps in a follow-up vid. BTW, excellent thumbnail for this post - illustrates subject perfectly.
Also good to keep an eye on Lightroom in post, as it keeps the Olympus used profile, but it defaults to about 25 in sharpness. Reducing that sharpness to zero before getting started will show that noise is not that bad on the original files.
I would love to switch to Olympus but can't bring my self to do it. The only advantage it has to offer is the physical size. Noise, low MP count, and awful menu systems prevent my switch from Sony. Sony it quite small body wise it's the lenses that are big.
Are those things the most important things after all? At least MP is not fo most. Noise also is a bit so and so, but of course it depends on how big prints you need? Oly file can make some really nice big prints. The menu system is not awful, but it could be better.
@@ForsgardPeter I like printing fine art stuff so quite big often square 24"x 24". MFT seems to be a compromise i'm not prepared to take. I owned an Olympus om-d e-m10 mark ii for a few weeks so base my opinions on the experience with that. Is the olympus om-d e-m1 mark ii considerably better?
It is a better camera. It has 20MP sensor and a better processor. How much is the image quality better is more a less a personal opinion. E-M1 MKII also has the high res mode for 80MP photos. If you have chance a borrow one, you should try it out.
I appreciate all of your information except the DSLR comment about them being old school. Old school or not they take much more authentic pictures. In a blind side by side comparison the DSLR images were more rich and vibrant.
Dear Peter, very interesting methods and I will examine stacking though the disadvantage is abandoning the RAW! But all your images have been shot in more or less bright daylight, thus the noise seen is due to mere signal amplification reducing SNR and maybe some camera flaws... In unfavorable light conditions most of the noise is due to light noise because of underexposure - the higher the ISO the higher the underexposure and thus the noise due to the stochastic nature of photons. The bigger the pixel area the less variance and thus the less noise. While the E-M1 Mii has a pixel pitch of ca 3,3 micrometer, that of e.g. the Sony A7iii is near to 6! And noise reduction in the camera does not correct that sort of noise correcting only hot pixels. Sometimes I convert noisy images to black and white and even enhance the graininess to mimic images of the old grand days of film!
Yes, it is counterintuitive but if you use high ISOs in good light, noise levels are well controlled. I also agree that converting to black and white loses the worst effects of noise. The two best options are intelligent use of flash, or learn not to worry about noise!
BUGGA!!! That's what I had wrong --- I just turned the volume down to get less noise . Ok; I'm leaving :lol: But before I go --- I have recently learnt digital noise is just that; digital; and does not show on a printed photo . I haven't print a photo for years so have no idea . I often think ''sharpness'' and ''noise'' are rather over rated; or over worried about with modern digital cameras.
The word noise in 'long exposure noise reduction' has nothing to do with noise that's traditionally associated with high ISO. Two completely different concepts, but one vocab item
I didn't know Olympus still made cameras! That being said, ISO on digital cameras is nothing more then a noise reduction circuit, It shouldn't even be called ISO! Additionally at 6:09 The menu shows a noise filter that can be toggled on and off as well as many iso features. That means there's a noise filter for the noise filter! Now I understand why people are confused! And probably why I haven't heard the name olympus cameras mentioned in years!
It actually is. The exposure can always be taken down. The results will be better. With the highlight/shadow flag colors you can control where the highlights are. Anyways it is always wise to exposure as right as possible.
Number one isn't so easy. ISO is what is it is (and it's not simple)... Lowering the ISO in fact implies getting more light to the subject/scene (as ISO doesn't change the amount of light reaching the sensor), but on most occasions you can't. So it's not about lowering the ISO per se and underexpose (which can be even worse in some cases). It's about trying not be forced to raise the ISO. So ISO has in actuality little to do with noise. Also, be careful when exposing to the right. It's not always good (in fact, rarely is).
@@ForsgardPeter Hi, Peter! Exposing to the right may be beneficial in some cases, but it's a bit risky since if not done correctly and in the right situation, could lead to lost highlight details and maybe other problems. Not to talk about the need to correct the picture further in post. The issue is worse in digital, where highlights clip relatively easily and they are hard to impossible to recover, unlike film, which it's said to be the opposite. Also, remember there's nothing like a properly exposed image.
The point is not to clip the highlights. That is were the flag colors come in handy. If you set the red/orange to turn on when the when the value hits 254 highlights wont be blown out. There is still a bit room if needed. Actually the 254 is for the jpg and there is still a bit room in the raw file. ETTR is risky if you do not have all the info in the EVF. That is exactly what I was saying about DSLRs.
Photography Tutorials videos: ruclips.net/p/PLDi4hF9-cy6jpKQd4GtVB5LnRjZ-a9_q7
Hi Peter, are you a scuba diver?
I am sure that I recognise you.
When the situation allows, Hi-Res mode results in less noise as well. Also, using masking in the sharpening controls in LR to avoid sharpening noise in the out of focus areas. But as you said, ETTR and keeping ISO as low as possible are the real keys to minimizing noise, and both of those techniques are so easy with Olympus cameras. Also helps to come to the realization that a bit of noise doesn't ruin an otherwise good photograph. Excellent video, Peter.
Thank you. Yes, High res mode can also work in reducing noise.
⌚ Timestamaps:
02:01 Tip #1 - Use as Low ISO as possible
02:20 - Use Extended Low ISO
03:20 Tip #2 - Image Sharpness
04:48 Tip #3 - Noise Reduction in Camera
06:49 Tip #4 - Image Stacking
08:50 Tip #5 - Exposure (ETTR - Expose To The Right)
11:48 Extra Tip #1 - Multiple Exposure for Less Noise
13:17 Extra Tip #2 - Focus Stacking for Less Noise
Thank you. Added.
Peter, one method I use a lot is exposing to the right without the histogram. In aperture priority mode I use the exposure Compensation dial and simply raise the exposure by 1/3 or 2/3 of a stop. This, I find, is much easier than having to constantly check the histogram. It's so much faster. Usually, just over exposing by only 1/3 stop dramatically lowers noise without making the image looking too overexposed.
Is your "Olympus four thirds" to prefer for Fujifilm X-T3?
(Hvordan overlever en mand med et dansk navn i "knivenes land", Peter?)
I prefer Olympus. I do survive very well, thanks for asking.
@@ForsgardPeter Could you elaborate on the primary reasons to choose Olympus over other available four third brands in the same class? I let my old full frame Sony Alpha 900 go, and for some time I have read about and listened to pro et contras. My current position is, that nothing matches Fujifilm X-T3 so far regarding video as well as still imaging. I have always loved Fuji's colors, not least the slides possible with the old Fujichrome 35 mm. While scanning the options for another month I have not ended my search for the optimal solution.
Tip1: use a wide fast lens to let in more light!
Tip2: use a fill flash to lift the shadows, as well as the subject.
Tip3: use a curve to darken the darkest part of the shadows, flattening out the noise.
Tip4: use the zebra's a 100% to quickly set the perfect exposure to the (b)right of the histogram.
5b, a modern camera with a larger pixel pitch/size. GH5S 12MP does level the noise playing field producing about 2 stops less noise then the 20MP. In terms of noise you can approximate a 20MP M4/3 sensor with a 80MP 35mm sensor. The GH5s you can compare to a 48MP 35mm sensor like the S1R has.
Tip6: Use fast glass and a speedbooster. Sigma 18-35 F 1,8 + Metabones speedbooster yields about a F1,2 amount of light.
lol. + 'prime' denoiser of dxo
Excellent tips for any photographer! Thanks for sharing!
Thanks.
This is my kind of video I would like to see in RUclips. Not the kind of videos denying paid hacks are presenting comparing and measurebating features of different camera brands and models.
Thank you.
I do live music photography so my pictures always contain a lot of pleasing noise :D
Another very useful video, Peter.
Just worth mentioning that, in Focus Stacking mode, the stacked image is a single composite jpeg, BUT if you're set to save LSF+RAW, then you'll also have 8 RAW image files that can be merged using third-party post processing software.
So, while it's true to say that the output of in-camera Focus Stacking is that one jpeg, Use of LSF+RAW doesn't totally limit you to jpeg. This is how we professionals work in product photography.
Rick
That is true. If you want to use raw then using only focus bracketing might me a good idea. Then stack the images in post.
Greetings to you Peter and your viewers from the other end of the globe!
Another good video sir, however, one key aspect I feel you could have included more directly (although in many ways you touched on it indirectly) is Shot Noise. This affects any camera no matter the sensor size in use.
Shot Noise is though, happily, something over which we have direct control from the start at any ISO setting.
Simply explained, if we imagine each pixel as a bucket for "light drops", the longer we leave the tray of buckets (the sensor) in the rain (light), the more drops will be in each bucket and the more even the signal (number of drops in each bucket) will be over the sensor. The shorter the period of time we leave the tray in the rain (i.e. the faster we open and close the shutter) the fewer and more scattered the drops will be in the buckets - and the gaps in-between where there are no drops at all are what we see as noise - especially in shadows.
When there is a light drizzle (low light) as opposed to a steady downpour (good lighting) you will need to have the tray in the rain for longer to get a good number of drops in each bucket to ensure an even signal.
So, practically: Using a fast shutter speed in low light (which is what you get if you simply rack up the ISO value) ADDS shot noise where a longer shutter speed - in the same conditions with the same elevated ISO - will tend to have less noise for the processor to handle from the start in downstream processing.
You can test this by using the same ISO on a static scene and using different shutter speed/aperture combinations to expose it. Extremely fast shutter speed exposures (on any camera) will exhibit areas of visible noise in the shadows, even in good daylight, where a longer speed in those very same conditions will tend to smooth those areas out.
Summary: If noise really bothers you or needs to be minimised as much as possible, start by using the slowest practical shutter speed in the particular conditions in which you are shooting (which by implication will mean the lowest practical ISO as well) wherever possible - even when using all the other tips in the video.
It's always a balancing act between ISO, shot noise and required depth of field - but then, that's what makes our profession such a challenging one and keeps us on our toes every day.
In my view noise, per-se, is not always a fault in an image anymore than grain was a fault with film. Sometimes noise can help form part of the soul of the image and add to its mood and message.
SouthernShutterbug. I love your buckets analogy. A very good clear explanation. And, once again, it's important to remember that our sensors only ever work at ISO 200, therefore, balancing exposure aperture and shutter speed around ISO 200 will always yield the least noise.
Higher ISOs are actually a deceit. You get an underexposed image that the camera's software attempts to boost back to the sensor's native ISO 200 light exposure, which is where the noise comes from.
Rick
I am used to keep the ISO as low as possible and I tend to slightly keep my shots underexposed, all these in fear of noise. A slight overexposure and lowering the exposure in post is a new method for me to try. Thank you for the tips (hopefully got it right..) !!
It is better to make the image as bright as possible and then lower the exposure in post. The image looks first a bit dull, but once you lower the exposure it will a lot better with less noise.
@@ForsgardPeter this is a fantastic tip I would have never thought on my own and it is totally appreciated !!!
Great tips, many thanks. Would you consider doing a video on using the bundled flash that comes with OMD and Pen F cameras?
Thanks. I could. I am not really user of the flash, but that is a good idea.
@@ForsgardPeter The reason I ask is that I have failed to produce good results with the bundled flash, both as a light fill in for outdoor portraits and also indoors at family gatherings. Either my technique is wrong or I need to upgrade to a more expensive Olympus flash, or perhaps both.
That would be so useful! I haven't a clue how to use mine!
The most obvious one you missed is using a speedlight, if the situation allows it. In combination with ETTR, that becomes the most powerful noise reduction technique.
I obviously realize, you won't be able to do that for landscape or architectural photography, but when the situation allows it is the best way to reduce noise. Hence carrying a flashgun with you.
All the techniques you have mentioned are valid too, some more than others. But this is my number one tip. Flashgun use in conjunction with ETTR are, may be take several shots, to ensure highlights are protected, whilst using the ETTR method in conjunction with a speedlight.
And if you really want to go in the direction of overkill, the methods I mentioned in conjunction with exposure blending in Photoshop. Followed then by processing the image to your intent or artistic interpretation.
Thanks for sharing and you are right that method is worth using when possible.
@@ForsgardPeter Thank you for sharing your videos. I am not a Panasonic user but most of your tips are universally useful. Really appreciate it your videos.
Hi Peter;
Stacking does not force you to abandon raw format as the Olympus cameras store the raw files that were used to produce the in-camera jpeg file. As such you can stack these raw files in post processing in photoshop or a similar program.
Besides that Olympus cameras have also bracketing that can be used as a technique to reduce noise in post processing.
Yes, you can. In this case the camera does the stacking.
As you have said it, M4/3 has a worst performance in low light when compared to full frame, but even in dim light and up to F4.0, I'm confident that my good old Em-1 Mk I can handle it and produce great results. Never have I been bothered by the noise in my images...
Learn to appreciate noise which sometimes creates a nice artistic foundation.
Sometimes noise can be really good, as you say it is not the amount, but the caracter of the noise.
Hi I have an Olympus camera SP 51OUZ, the video only run for 7 seconds, how to make it longer?
Unfortunately, I cannot help you with that. I have never used that camera. Have you tried to find a manual for it?
Thanks Peter! Very useful! I have embraced some the "noise" or "digital grain" of the high ISO (>10,000) by converting my photos to black & white and treating the noise as "film grain"... 😆... Sometimes by playing with the shadows and actually deliberately underexposing them I can create moody images and lessen the appearance of noise that way... Anyhow those are two things I do in addition to what you have mentioned... Thanks again!
Hi Peter
Interesting topic.
I have an E-M5 II and I use DXO Photolab for raw convertion and noice reduction. And it is very capable of cleaning up noice without ruining detail. Lately I have experimented on creating "bokeh panorama" where I take 6to 130 pictures with a tele zoom and do the raw convertion of each of them with noice reduction, and then stitch them together in Image composite. Then I edit and reduce the size and the result is crisp sharp images where the remaining digital artifacts and noise is reduced many times by size in the process.
That is great way of making cool looking images.
Hello Your tips are really good I just would like to ask one question. How is the image stack and done in photoshop to reduce the noise? Can you please elaborate on that? Thank you.
You need to make several images. Then you open all the images and have then as layers as a one image. If I remember correctly you then lower the opacity of the images from top top bottom. The amount of opacity depends on how many layers you have. There must be a few tutorials in RUclips.
Can these same tips also apply to a Canon camera?
Most of them yes. The names of the settings can be a bit different.
This video is really helpful..thx
Glad to hear that!
Hello sir, can you explain how to connect a HDMI output for the Live View screen you can use an external monitor display while recording movies? for OM-D E-M5 Mark II thank you
It very simple. Just connect the monitor to the microHDMI port in your camera and thats it.
@@ForsgardPeter thank you, but it giving a review not a live recording live view
To me, many of the in camera options are there for people that either don't want to or don't have the software to post process and you can still post process a jpg, crop, whitebalance, etc. just not as much room but if they "camera" gets it right and then you just want to apply your color curve...that is really the learn from the cel phone for the mainstream audience. That is part of why I say, partner with Google, run android on the camera (then you get the nice UI, apps run on it etc) the advantage of the "camera" is the glass, the battery, and the memory + plus larger sensor and IBIS -- but lots of good tips here.
Do you know Peter if these in-camera noise reduction settings work on RAW files or just jpeg only?
Jpg only.
Hi Mr Forsgard..... Is the 200 the low posible ISO when I use the E-M10 mark 2 or the mark 3......???
.....thankyou.....Best regards...
Go to settings and you can go down to 100. By default its 200 to get a quick enough shutter speed with kit lens
You have the possibility to use LowISO. From the Super Control panel choose ISO and then choose LowISO.
@@ForsgardPeter thanks....!!
.... regards...!!
@@PaleHROse thanks a lot...!!!
Great info! Thank you!
“Noise” (actually signal to noise ratio) is not caused by iso. It is mainly cause by the quantity of light you gather to make the photograph. The lower, the lower the snr. Image stacking is just adding more light.
Thinking that iso amplification is the cause of the noise is a mis conception. You can shoot at iso 1600 and iso 100 with (same shutter speed and aperture brighten in post) you we get similar snr, a bit better with iso1600 for other reason.
The real advice is get the maximum of light as possible and you can get rid of advice 1, 4 and 5.
That depends on if you have an invariant sensor or not. I have not tested if Olympus has an invariant sensor.
Peter Forsgård wasn’t my purpose, if you have an invariant sensor you will get the same SNR with iso 100 and 1600. If you don’t have one you will get a better snr at 1600 than 100 (for same quantity of light gathered). Meaning that in low light condition it is better to increase iso than brightening in post.
This is due to the fact that when you brighten in post you are increasing signal and all type of noise. When you amplify with analog iso you are amplifying signal and all noises except one : the read out noise of your sensor. Which in most photographic situation you do not see because dominated by other type of noise (the photon noise).
Peter Forsgård all that to say that the advice 1) use lowest iso as possible is kind of twisted. The advice I would say is :
- get the maximum quantity of light
When you cannot get more think about what you want to prioritize:
* dynamic range: better to shoot low iso and apply the right curve in post.
* noise (specially in shadows) better to increase the iso.
Cheers.
Hello Peter, I have ac question about developing RAW files. When I shoot the image, the RAW-file has about 15 MB. After processing the picture, the file only has around 1/3 of it. Could you please tell me why after developing the file of aroud 15 MB, it then only has around 5 MB. What am I doing wrong. I have an OLY OMD 10 Mark 2. Thanks.
You are not doing anything wrong. Most likely you export them as jpgs and it is compressed and it is smaller in size (in MB).
Very helpful tutorial on a difficult subject
Thank you.
Well expressed tips & thanks for doing this. I have a Panasonic Fz2500 1 in. sensor bridge camera which has a SCENE mode on the dial. Within this mode is a selection called ' Handheld Night Shot ' which is used in handheld lower light situations. It takes 5 rapid exposures, using higher ISO & shutter levels, which helps with noise as well as ' freezing ' motion , then - in camera - they are combined into one composite image. The results are very sharp & detailed. Regrettably Panasonic chose to leave this feature ' off ' of the higher end G9 camera, although it still resides in the G9's intelligent Auto + mode but here it's use is applied only at the ' desecration ' of the camera.
I have a Panasonic GX80 with this feature, and it works very well. However I *think* it produces a jpeg image like the Olympus version.
Peter - Very good video on noise issues, but you didn’t mention using the in-camera “curve” adjustment of contrast for high, low and mid bands of exposure. One can suppress blowouts (orange) and crushed shadows (blue in EVF). Some reports state that this method only effects the jpg image and not the raw image file. I see subtle differences in the raw image histograms for exposures with and without the use of the in-camera curve tool. What do you say re the impact on the raw file? Note that in video log LUTS, suppressing contrast and saturation work similarly, but do they work on video RAW files?
I does not affect the raw files, but it might give a better info and help you to get more accurate exposure.
sir in my sony 6400 i get so much shot noise in photos and videos and slowmos please how to fix tell me sir
The first thing is to have the exposure right. Using ETTR and lowering the exposure in post will make noise less visible. I do not know how the noise in camera works in Sony 6400. Test that. Also try to use as low ISO as possible.
Incredibly valuable information Peter. Thank you for your excellent work!
Thanks.
Thanks master very good
Most welcome!
Hi Peter in Scene mode have you tried Hand-Held Startlight not for night but for low light? Using this scn mode it takes several images and stacks them. Give it a try and let me know if it works for you, I use it on em5 mkII.
Thanks for the tip I will try that.
Real good info, Peter. Thank you
You are a photography genius. Thank you for the tips, Peter.
Wow, thanks!
Sir my camera nikon D3500 I take videos and photo in room it has some colour comes and the photo become not good it is also some mixed colours sir please help me
Most likely you need more light that is more neutral and closer to daylight.
When I click photo screen shows mixed colours that is my confusion
Thanks for that. My extra tip? DxO PhotoLab Prime or DeepPrime. :)
DxO Photolab 4 DeepPrime is the best at the moment.
Thank you very much for your contribution as always perfect and very helpful.
Noise reduction with focus-on stacking is spectacular. It works very well.
One question, if I leave Noise Reduction (Auto) + Noise Filter (High) + Process enabled. Permanently low ISO (Detail Priority) for all photographs do you think that's not right? Can it affect the quality of my images?
Not really any big difference in IQ.
Good ideas clearly presented; this is why I like your videos. Others have offered but so will I, adding light. At some point, using flash and other controlled lighting is an important option.
It's funny that I had to watch this to figure out how to deliberately create digital noise... There's also not a lot of information out there on what's actually happening during the internal process that creates it.
If you know of a really good source of information on that I'd greatly appreciate being directed to it.
Well done*
I will look into it.
Thanks for the great video!
My pleasure!
At 9,36 - dslr also have histogram, so even with optical viewfinder u r able to fine tune exposure. Also i use flash outdoor, which makes the subject pop-up everytime, even outside in daylight. Anyway, i'm looking forward for a mirrorless camera.
Question: Instead of multiple exposures (with a tripod I assume, and only for static objects) couldn't I just use a long (multiple second) exposure at a lower ISO setting, to get less noise?
What would be de advantage of using multiple exposures (at high ISO) over a (long) time exposure at low ISO?
It is not always possible to use long exposures. If you are able to use LowISO tehn you should use it. Most likely the noise that comes from long exposures is less than the one that comes from high ISO.
Com es pot aprofitar la possible invariància de l'ISO d'alguns sensors en la postproducció de fitxers RAW?
Quines càmeres Olympus tenen ISO invariant a determinades sensibilitats?
.......
How can you take advantage of the possible invariance of the ISO of some sensors in the postproduction of RAW files?
What Olympus cameras have ISO invariance to certain sensitivities?
I hav enot really tested properly if the Olympus sensors are invariant or not. E-M1 had partially invariant sensor, but not sure aboit the newer sensors.
@@ForsgardPeter
Bé, ja teniu feina!
........
Well, you already have a job!
Great video and very good said. I got my em10 mk2 and still also a aps-c nikon but as i am also getting older will in time get rid of all the nikon gear and obtain more mft gear thats smaller and lighter and still very good for my application.
Hi Peter, thank you for your interesting report(s). I take a small exposure bracketing (-1 / 0 / +1) on non (or less) moving subjects and than combine them into a single image in Lightroom CC (only one click!). So I have a good dynamic range and also a low noise - everything in RAW.
That is a good way. Do you use Photo Merge and HDR in Lightroom?
It is called: "merge hdr" ? ("Zusammenfügen von HDR" in german), a really fast and effective way to increase quality...📷[EM1(2)+PEN-F, only RAW]
Thanks for the answer.
For bird photography shutter speed should be minimum 1/1200 and apperture may be f5. 6 what will be the ISO so as noise not to be experienced in the image.
How does the omd em1mark II work with social media?
Could you upload photos direct on Facebook from the camera?
How does it work?
No you cannot. Need to use the OI.Share app.
Good explanation! Did your model at 3:40 have two different color eyes?
Yes.
I do use Emd10 mark ii in video mode . How to use ronin SC with my camera . DJI and Olympus Such not compatible
Olympus is not compatible DJI. You can of course use the gimbal, but you cannot use the controls from the gimbal.
Great methods for reducing noise. I never thought of using the 60 fps for getting images to stack for reducing noise. I have used Live ND in the E-M1X and also HiRes to get lower image noise.
Yes, high res is also a good method.
What about ISO invariant??
That is one thing that I did not cover in this video, but I have a separate video about that: ruclips.net/video/jDLTybYbqr8/видео.html
what about taking pictures with the lenscap on for reduce noise. Astro photographers use the method.
Actually that what the node reduction in the camera kind of does. Yes, it is a working solution.
@@ForsgardPeter Do you have a link to node reduction? Newer heard of it but I'm a Nikon D300 user and It’s time to upgrade that camera because it broke down after 12 years use. Not going to Z cameras yet but I saving to a D850.
Even base iso has noise. Compose and make proper exposure, Make another exposure at base iso 4 stops under. You should have done NR on each RGB layer and saved saved results . Apply saved NR to 4 stop under, then boost to proper exposure.
This works because we are not boosting noise from base for high iso like what the camera does, but raising a "clean" image without noise. I can do this with my M8 which has really poor high iso image quality.
It depends if the sensor is invariant or not. Your method works with some cameras, but not all.
Does noise reduction in Olympus camera only work in JPG?
I'd not heard of the multiple exposure method. Cool for when you don't have any movement in your image. Thanks!
very good tips.
Thanks.
Solid info, Peter. Will try image stacking. My go-to method is proper exposure combined with low ISO. I hear that more cameras have become “ISO invariant” as a way to reduce noise. Would appreciate your perspectives on this topic, perhaps in a follow-up vid. BTW, excellent thumbnail for this post - illustrates subject perfectly.
I have not tested the invariance of Olympus sensors, but I just might figure that out in the near future. Thanks.
Great tips Peter -- I'm going to see which of those I can easily do on my Lumix G85. But man, smile some more! :-) Thank you!
I know, more :). :D
A really helpful tutorial thank you!
*I use to watch more noise reduction videos to reduce noise in my images*
Also good to keep an eye on Lightroom in post, as it keeps the Olympus used profile, but it defaults to about 25 in sharpness. Reducing that sharpness to zero before getting started will show that noise is not that bad on the original files.
Thanks for the tip, I've always wondered why that slider started at 25 :)
Anyone else notice that the woman has different color pupils? And yes, she is gorgeous. :)
Thank you for the good tips Peter👍
I would love to switch to Olympus but can't bring my self to do it. The only advantage it has to offer is the physical size. Noise, low MP count, and awful menu systems prevent my switch from Sony. Sony it quite small body wise it's the lenses that are big.
Are those things the most important things after all? At least MP is not fo most. Noise also is a bit so and so, but of course it depends on how big prints you need? Oly file can make some really nice big prints. The menu system is not awful, but it could be better.
@@ForsgardPeter I like printing fine art stuff so quite big often square 24"x 24". MFT seems to be a compromise i'm not prepared to take. I owned an Olympus om-d e-m10 mark ii for a few weeks so base my opinions on the experience with that. Is the olympus om-d e-m1 mark ii considerably better?
It is a better camera. It has 20MP sensor and a better processor. How much is the image quality better is more a less a personal opinion. E-M1 MKII also has the high res mode for 80MP photos. If you have chance a borrow one, you should try it out.
@@ForsgardPeter I would love to try one but its not that easy. A leap of faith is the only option I have
Stoic Student you should check out Joe Edelman's 46feet billboard print.
My biggest do far is 27 inches and no problems with it.
Kitos from London!
Good Vid thanks.
Thank you.
I appreciate all of your information except the DSLR comment about them being old school. Old school or not they take much more authentic pictures. In a blind side by side comparison the DSLR images were more rich and vibrant.
Cool video
Thanks.
Nice
Yeah noise is an enemy of mine too. I'm struggling everyday with my EM1 to get rid of this.
Well just like he said "its just the way it is" 🤨
Dear Peter,
very interesting methods and I will examine stacking though the disadvantage is abandoning the RAW!
But all your images have been shot in more or less bright daylight, thus the noise seen is due to mere signal amplification reducing SNR and maybe some camera flaws...
In unfavorable light conditions most of the noise is due to light noise because of underexposure - the higher the ISO the higher the underexposure and thus the noise due to the stochastic nature of photons. The bigger the pixel area the less variance and thus the less noise. While the E-M1 Mii has a pixel pitch of ca 3,3 micrometer, that of e.g. the Sony A7iii is near to 6! And noise reduction in the camera does not correct that sort of noise correcting only hot pixels.
Sometimes I convert noisy images to black and white and even enhance the graininess to mimic images of the old grand days of film!
Yes, it is counterintuitive but if you use high ISOs in good light, noise levels are well controlled. I also agree that converting to black and white loses the worst effects of noise. The two best options are intelligent use of flash, or learn not to worry about noise!
14:55 ETM
BUGGA!!! That's what I had wrong --- I just turned the volume down to get less noise . Ok; I'm leaving :lol:
But before I go --- I have recently learnt digital noise is just that; digital; and does not show on a printed photo . I haven't print a photo for years so have no idea .
I often think ''sharpness'' and ''noise'' are rather over rated; or over worried about with modern digital cameras.
i agree that nose and sharpness are over rated. Where did the idea that noise does not show prints comes from?
@@ForsgardPeter Ok to put the link here or is there another way ?
Yes it is. Please do.
The word noise in 'long exposure noise reduction' has nothing to do with noise that's traditionally associated with high ISO. Two completely different concepts, but one vocab item
Many many Thanks Peter Forsgard...
ETTR might be good for cloudy countries, but for the southern hemisphere BEWARE, any Hint of sunlight wont be recoverable (even from RAW)
ETTR is good for any situation. The key is not to blow the highlights no matter if there is clouds or not.
and finally.....which are the tips?
Noise? DXO photolab 2 prime..done
That is also a way.
I didn't know Olympus still made cameras! That being said, ISO on digital cameras is nothing more then a noise reduction circuit, It shouldn't even be called ISO!
Additionally at 6:09 The menu shows a noise filter that can be toggled on and off as well as many iso features. That means there's a noise filter for the noise filter! Now I understand why people are confused! And probably why I haven't heard the name olympus cameras mentioned in years!
No Peter you didn't miss anything in your presentation. As a matter of fact it was really good. Thank you for educating me. Good Job.
Thank you very much.
Unfortunately exposing to the right is not Always possible, for instance during a dark concert, a wedding etc...
It actually is. The exposure can always be taken down. The results will be better. With the highlight/shadow flag colors you can control where the highlights are. Anyways it is always wise to exposure as right as possible.
@@ForsgardPeter just show him a couple of your images of a dark concert with your oly to prove it...
Number one isn't so easy. ISO is what is it is (and it's not simple)... Lowering the ISO in fact implies getting more light to the subject/scene (as ISO doesn't change the amount of light reaching the sensor), but on most occasions you can't. So it's not about lowering the ISO per se and underexpose (which can be even worse in some cases). It's about trying not be forced to raise the ISO. So ISO has in actuality little to do with noise.
Also, be careful when exposing to the right. It's not always good (in fact, rarely is).
Why ETTR is not good?
@@ForsgardPeter Hi, Peter! Exposing to the right may be beneficial in some cases, but it's a bit risky since if not done correctly and in the right situation, could lead to lost highlight details and maybe other problems. Not to talk about the need to correct the picture further in post. The issue is worse in digital, where highlights clip relatively easily and they are hard to impossible to recover, unlike film, which it's said to be the opposite.
Also, remember there's nothing like a properly exposed image.
The point is not to clip the highlights. That is were the flag colors come in handy. If you set the red/orange to turn on when the when the value hits 254 highlights wont be blown out. There is still a bit room if needed. Actually the 254 is for the jpg and there is still a bit room in the raw file. ETTR is risky if you do not have all the info in the EVF. That is exactly what I was saying about DSLRs.
So better standar high,low,off
I think most of us use RAW these days
@Good Day i'd say, most of Photographers today have cameras without raw :-) 90% of phones don't output raw
I have one simply method. I don´t care about noise.
Easy solution!
chances are after a while you'll evolve into making your pix noisy intentionally :-)
Quit blaming the iso....the more light coming in thru the lens the less noise....simple as that.....
Yes true, but since every camera produces more noise when using higher ISO, I think the video has a point.
Nothing new
5 minutes out of 15...bla bla bla
best tips is ...buy a FF camera with low resolution