Berserk is definitely dark fantasy and I should have mentioned it, I forgot 🤦. Second Apocalypse is on my TBR. I started the series a few months ago but I was in a reading funk at the time so I stopped. I plan on starting again sometime this year.
Thanks! I hope you enjoy it! Are you reading the 1954 edition or the 1972 edition? If it is pulpy paperback then it is the 1972 edition. The 1954 edition was reprinted in the Fantasy Masterworks line. The 1954 edition uses a lot of archaic language but the story is the same.
I listened to the Bronson Pinchot narration on Audible. I loved it. That is also the 1954 edition which I prefer. Anderson went back in 1972 and revised it. He replaced some of the archaic words and turns of phrase. Both version are fantastic though. For my physical copy I bought the Fantasy Masterworks edition which is the 1954 original text.
Karl Edward Wagner's Kain is great. Such an interesting character and Kain's fight against the Werewolf is one of the best fights I have ever read. Sadly I only have the German translation. By the time we could order from the US easier it was already too late to get them in English. Yet, great a character and great stories. Paraphrased from the German translation: "Thus died Abel." Still makes me shiver.
Much horror should simply be relabeled fantasy. The Shining for instance is about a boy protagonist with fantastical abilities overcoming obstacles and escaping victorious, although not without scars. The sequel Doctor Sleep is even more like a heroic, good vs evil fantasy where the heros triumph.
I think that gives credence to Charles L. Grant's definition of dark fantasy. He would say the same. That is what is so interesting about the genre. It is hard to pin down.
@@JosephReadsBooks it reminds me I read Dracula last year and it entirely seems squarely fantasy to me. Perhaps that is why the horror section has vanished from many bookstores. It’s been recategorized.
A whole lot of celtic folklore or for that matter pretty much any folklore, would probably count. Gormenghast definitely. hell even Hans Christain Andersen too.
I like this series and look forward to the recommendations you'll get. I'm surprised that Stephen King wasn't mentioned. I think a lot of his would fall into this genre. I immediately thought of his "Dark Tower Series", probably because my simple thinking would make the connection between the word "Dark" in both. I think it's interesting to discuss sub-genres and helps pick out what might interest you. It might not help me much, I just noticed today that Spotify has created a curated music playlist just for me that it titled (honestly) "Jazz Funk Soul Blues Mix". It appears that I can't make up my mind on music and it's about the same for books.
I filmed this a few times due to mistakes and one of them did include Stephen King. I forgot it in the final video 🤦. The Dark Tower series is definitely dark fantasy. My spotify is a hot mess too.
The most recent Elric Book, Citadel of Forgotten Myths is most definitely Dark Fantasy. It's also one of the best Elric Books that Moorcock has written. Well worth the read!
Great series, would love more. Google search for books is so bad now. The blurbs are often just a repetition of the title and the author’s name in a sentence without saying a summary or anything different than what you typed in.
I don't think they are the same. Grimdark is usually bleak, full of anti-heroes, and usually a dystopian setting. You don't need those for dark fantasy. Both genres do share horror elements so the lines are blurred in some case(Shadows Linger, book two in the Black Company series by Glen Cook, is a dark fantasy novel in a grimdark book series).
I'm actually reading something right now that definitely qualifies, Lynn Flewelling's Tamir Triad. The best way to describe the first book is like a gothic horror in an epic fantasy setting. It's really messed up. Not sure if you've come across that one before.
@@JosephReadsBooks I tried to do a bit of dark souls crossed with bloodborne in a modern (but fictional) version of Taiwan. Probably more grimdark that dark fantasy, but who know with genres these days. Whatever it is, it's pretty dark.
I like the idea of the series, but I think you're going to run into problems like in this video where the definition is nebulous enough that either you're going to find too few examples (the genre is too specific and only fits one work) or too many (...is Dark Fantasy just grimdark? Not sure! There's a lot there...). Could end up being pretty frustrating, sub-genres just get too wishy washy.... but if you enjoyed it, I definitely want to keep hearing your reccs!
I see what you mean. I'm mainly using it as a catalyst for talking about books I enjoy. They may end up becoming a slog but for now they are fun to make. Grimdark is a hot mess since everything is called grimdark now. Another one that will be a mess is Space Opera. Almost everything people refer to as space opera is just Hard SF. Grimdark vs Dark Fantasy is a video I think I will make at some point down the road. It will be a fun way to revisit the genres when I have more experience and then I can explore the differences.
Sub-Genres can get very frustrating, but I wouldn't say that Dark Fantasy is just Grimdark. Case in point, Karl Edward Wagner's 'Kain'. The world is similar to Conan's Hyborian Age, but Kain is hard to define. One of the first humans cursed to walk the world stays alive just to spite the god that had created humans and cursed Kain. The stories usually are about Kain fighting his greatest enemy, boredom. You have a character that feels at home in the midst of a battle,, but also plays high stakes diplomacy to turn two countries against each other to step in and take over. But not to rule, just to fight boredom. At the same time he appreciates art and culture even though he might tear it down in his everlasting quest. Is he good? No, but he can be kind. Is he evil? By his deeds, yes, but not by his motives. When his current plan fails for some reason, he simply leaves and doesn't try to stay in power at any cost. Is he a villain? Yes. Is he a hero? He can be, but rarely is. Grimdark in contrast often looks like it's dark for the sake of being dark often with the question 'can we make it even darker'? The two genres do overlap somewhat and where they do, it can be hard to differentiate between the two.
Развлечения
Of all the stuff I’ve read, I’d think I’d first put Berserk, Black Company and The Second Apocalypse into that bucket. Strong horror elements in all
Berserk is definitely dark fantasy and I should have mentioned it, I forgot 🤦.
Second Apocalypse is on my TBR. I started the series a few months ago but I was in a reading funk at the time so I stopped. I plan on starting again sometime this year.
Nice, Broken Sword is my next Poul read. Great video and conversation.
Thanks!
I hope you enjoy it!
Are you reading the 1954 edition or the 1972 edition? If it is pulpy paperback then it is the 1972 edition. The 1954 edition was reprinted in the Fantasy Masterworks line.
The 1954 edition uses a lot of archaic language but the story is the same.
Loved this since I knew nothing about this subgenre, and I’m gonna have to check out the Broken Sword at some point for sure
I listened to the Bronson Pinchot narration on Audible. I loved it.
That is also the 1954 edition which I prefer. Anderson went back in 1972 and revised it. He replaced some of the archaic words and turns of phrase.
Both version are fantastic though.
For my physical copy I bought the Fantasy Masterworks edition which is the 1954 original text.
Karl Edward Wagner's Kain is great. Such an interesting character and Kain's fight against the Werewolf is one of the best fights I have ever read. Sadly I only have the German translation. By the time we could order from the US easier it was already too late to get them in English. Yet, great a character and great stories.
Paraphrased from the German translation:
"Thus died Abel."
Still makes me shiver.
I have only read Night Winds but I really want to get back to reading his stories.
They are so good!
Much horror should simply be relabeled fantasy. The Shining for instance is about a boy protagonist with fantastical abilities overcoming obstacles and escaping victorious, although not without scars. The sequel Doctor Sleep is even more like a heroic, good vs evil fantasy where the heros triumph.
I think that gives credence to Charles L. Grant's definition of dark fantasy. He would say the same.
That is what is so interesting about the genre. It is hard to pin down.
@@JosephReadsBooks it reminds me I read Dracula last year and it entirely seems squarely fantasy to me. Perhaps that is why the horror section has vanished from many bookstores. It’s been recategorized.
A whole lot of celtic folklore or for that matter pretty much any folklore, would probably count. Gormenghast definitely. hell even Hans Christain Andersen too.
GREAT video! 😎📚👍
Thanks!
I like this series and look forward to the recommendations you'll get. I'm surprised that Stephen King wasn't mentioned. I think a lot of his would fall into this genre. I immediately thought of his "Dark Tower Series", probably because my simple thinking would make the connection between the word "Dark" in both. I think it's interesting to discuss sub-genres and helps pick out what might interest you. It might not help me much, I just noticed today that Spotify has created a curated music playlist just for me that it titled (honestly) "Jazz Funk Soul Blues Mix". It appears that I can't make up my mind on music and it's about the same for books.
I filmed this a few times due to mistakes and one of them did include Stephen King.
I forgot it in the final video 🤦.
The Dark Tower series is definitely dark fantasy.
My spotify is a hot mess too.
Kane! The epitome of darke fantasy. In the dictionary under ‘darke fantasy’ is a photo of Karl Edward Wagner. Good stuff Joseph!
Thank you! I need to make a little time to read some more Kane.
thanks Joseph!!!!!
Thank you!
The most recent Elric Book, Citadel of Forgotten Myths is most definitely Dark Fantasy. It's also one of the best Elric Books that Moorcock has written. Well worth the read!
I definitely plan on reading it. I'm looking forward to it!
Great series, would love more.
Google search for books is so bad now. The blurbs are often just a repetition of the title and the author’s name in a sentence without saying a summary or anything different than what you typed in.
I forgot about how bad the blurbs are on Google. It feels like Google is just pushing auto generated content instead of actual search results.
Do continue this series. There are indeed a number of subgenres of science fiction and fantasy which are quite nebulous in definition.
I also really enjoyed the first installment on the picaresque novel!
@@vilstef6988 thanks for watching!
I do. Would you consider dark fantasy and Grim dark the same?
I don't think they are the same.
Grimdark is usually bleak, full of anti-heroes, and usually a dystopian setting.
You don't need those for dark fantasy.
Both genres do share horror elements so the lines are blurred in some case(Shadows Linger, book two in the Black Company series by Glen Cook, is a dark fantasy novel in a grimdark book series).
I'm actually reading something right now that definitely qualifies, Lynn Flewelling's Tamir Triad. The best way to describe the first book is like a gothic horror in an epic fantasy setting. It's really messed up. Not sure if you've come across that one before.
I have not. I will add it to my wishlist and keep an eye out for it.
I've got a story that's dark urban fantasy... does that count?
Sure. I love urban fantasy so I'm all ears.
@@JosephReadsBooks I tried to do a bit of dark souls crossed with bloodborne in a modern (but fictional) version of Taiwan.
Probably more grimdark that dark fantasy, but who know with genres these days. Whatever it is, it's pretty dark.
PUPPY!
I like the idea of the series, but I think you're going to run into problems like in this video where the definition is nebulous enough that either you're going to find too few examples (the genre is too specific and only fits one work) or too many (...is Dark Fantasy just grimdark? Not sure! There's a lot there...). Could end up being pretty frustrating, sub-genres just get too wishy washy.... but if you enjoyed it, I definitely want to keep hearing your reccs!
I see what you mean. I'm mainly using it as a catalyst for talking about books I enjoy.
They may end up becoming a slog but for now they are fun to make.
Grimdark is a hot mess since everything is called grimdark now. Another one that will be a mess is Space Opera. Almost everything people refer to as space opera is just Hard SF.
Grimdark vs Dark Fantasy is a video I think I will make at some point down the road.
It will be a fun way to revisit the genres when I have more experience and then I can explore the differences.
Sub-Genres can get very frustrating, but I wouldn't say that Dark Fantasy is just Grimdark. Case in point, Karl Edward Wagner's 'Kain'. The world is similar to Conan's Hyborian Age, but Kain is hard to define. One of the first humans cursed to walk the world stays alive just to spite the god that had created humans and cursed Kain. The stories usually are about Kain fighting his greatest enemy, boredom. You have a character that feels at home in the midst of a battle,, but also plays high stakes diplomacy to turn two countries against each other to step in and take over. But not to rule, just to fight boredom. At the same time he appreciates art and culture even though he might tear it down in his everlasting quest.
Is he good? No, but he can be kind. Is he evil? By his deeds, yes, but not by his motives. When his current plan fails for some reason, he simply leaves and doesn't try to stay in power at any cost. Is he a villain? Yes. Is he a hero? He can be, but rarely is.
Grimdark in contrast often looks like it's dark for the sake of being dark often with the question 'can we make it even darker'?
The two genres do overlap somewhat and where they do, it can be hard to differentiate between the two.