Sorry about the beeping from the AOA! I know it’s a bit annoying. Also, quick reminder that I’m not doing any giveaway and I’m not on telegram, so if you get a comment reply from me make sure it has a check mark next to it. If there’s no checkmark it’s not me!
152 and 172 also drop the nose the instant you loose power in a Vx or Vy climb. It is a function of prop-wash over the tail. You instantly loose down force on the tail when prop wash ceases. With a CG forward of the center of lift, the nose will drop because the tail has to produce a down force to keep it up. With an aft CG, the tail produces up lift instead. An aft CG is unrecoverable in that scenario, as the nose would pitch up, and the pilot would likely not respond in time. I am an instructor. This lesson is on the house.
You shouldn't have said that. I'm sure they're going to add a check mark. I JUST deleted a spam message from them. Even so, Gimme a prize, YO! Errrr, never mind
@@462rob to each his own opinion but his flights to Alaska and the Grand Canyon, his sea plane ratings, I mean, come on man. Doesn't get any better than that.
I grew up in my dad's 1946 Taylorcraft. He was a big proponent of stall and spin recovery and we did a ton of mountain flying. As he was teaching me to fly, and just all the time in general, we would often go up a couple thousand feet and just stall and spin for fun. By the time I was 15 I could put the plane into and get out of a power on and off stall, a high wing stall, and spin in both direction. He would just say, okay, spin it 2 complete rotations left or 3 rotations right or can you do 1 1/2 rotations. Just to practice being able to control the spin and take it out right where you wanted it. Loved that plane. He had it for almost 30 years and then sold it to buy the engine for his RV-8. The RV was a kick in the pants but I missed the old T-cart. Your Kitfox and flying remind me so much of him and that plane. He had an engine failure twice and was able to glide out to the airfield. The first time we just rebuilt the C-85. The second time he got and STC and replaced the C-85 with an O-200. That plane was a whole new animal with the 100 HP! I fully appreciate the difference you feel with the new engine. It's an awesome experience.
Almost 30 years ago, my grandfather had recently sold his Aeronca Chief, then got the itch again, and bought a Kitfox, and I, at 15, got to watch him build it from start to finish. He splurged and got a larger motor and put it on floats, so that obviously changed the stall characteristics and overall manoeuvrability slightly, but he still raved about how amazing and easy this plane was to fly. Cancer unfortunately got him shortly after building it, but every time I watch one of your videos I think of him, which puts a smile on my face 😊
I worked for Dan Denney back in 1984 to 1985 when he was building KITFOX kits out of a warehouse near Curtis St and I-84 in Boise, ID. I made flaperons and put kits together in crates to ship all over the US. A basic kit back then was about 10 Grand. We had 3 engine options and were just starting to have floats as an option for people that wanted a KITFOX float plane. Good stuff.
Love the technical stuff! I became aware of the "junkers-style" flaperons' unique characteristic shortly after getting our plane (not a Kitfox, but very similar). The other benefit of being able to "lift a stalled wing" - as you said - is it makes those very slow approaches just above stall speed safer, since you can actually use the ailerons to keep the wings level without fear of stalling a wing like on a Supercub for example where you can only use rudder. But I fear it might teach bad habits 😏
I love your newer style of making documentaries on pilots and how they use flying in their lives, while also having a touch of your own flying shenanigans, while also showing us things from you personal life like building a house. Great work Trent!
I inadvertently put myself into a spin during my PP training. I was doing solo practice power off stalls in a 172. I had done them several times with my instructor and solo just fine. However one time I didn’t recover and the plane dumped hard left after adding power. Within a second or two, I was nose straight down spinning what felt like an eternity. Two things saved me though…1) always do stall practice higher. I was close to 2500 AGL. And about a week earlier my instructor informally told me “PEAR” for spin recovery. P-Power down or Pull throttle. E-Elevators neutral. A-Ailerons neutral. R-Rudder hard to opposite side of spin. Having seen the Earth spin around a few times directly ahead of me, PEAR came into my head. I immediately pulled the throttle, yoke was straight, and smashed the right rudder pedal. Within a second, the plane stopped spinning and I was able to slowly raise the nose and level out around 2000’ AGL followed by adding power. I had lost close to 500’ within seconds. Scared the sh** out of me, but I was thankful my instructor took some time to explain spins during a lesson. Something I think should definitely be taught during training. Also thankful, the 172 is an easy plane to recover.
Spin recovery was one of the first thing I was taught in the 172. Love practicing them. Such an easy recovery. But once again, always around 3000 agl. Yup, lose 500' in the blink of an eye, practicing gets that down.
@@valkyriesride129 It's not really taught anymore since it isn't tested, at least for PP. I wish I had done it the first time with the instructor in the plane, but I know now I can get myself out if/when it happens again.
I went into a spin in a 172 power on stall also. My instructor yelled "my plane" and it didn't make a full rotation before he recovered. I didn't catch what he did, so I asked him what he did and he indicated "PEAR" as well. Unfortunately they can't teach (us in the U.S.) spins in a 172 as it's not rated as aerobatic. Jason Miller suggests going and finding someone to teach them to you in such a plane. I have not done so, but I am more careful in power-on stalls after that.
@@sandyprice 172s are approved for spins in the utility category. Unfortunately most flying clubs and flight schools prohibit spin instruction in their aircraft even though it can be done safely and legally. It’s hard on gyros but spin training is priceless (and has kept me out of trouble on more than one occasion).
During my PP training instructor had combined power on stalls with simulated instrumentt at about 4000 agl.I failed to maintain coordination and spun the plane.I recognized what was happening and recovered, but lost about 1500 ft in the process. Instructor sat there with his arms crossed and just said "Nice spin". Lesson learned: Proper coordination is critical, and had this happened during takeoff it would quite likely be fatal.
Oh, a Kitfox will spin with a lot less effort than you think and it will stay in until you do your part. Unaggravated, Its actually pretty comparable to most Citabrias and Decathlons. Although with the authority of flaperons, and relatively low inertia and higher rpm of the prop, certain aggravated spin modes would get interesting and the similarities would end there. The issue comes down to experimentals (even certified aircraft with multiple aerodynamic STCs) and their dissimilarities. In the world of spin dynamics, some parts or combinations of parts don’t play well with each other. Like you said, each aircraft is an example of one.
Man Trent, You got to get some spin training. Not just cuz it is generally a great idea, BUT IT IS A BLAST. I did spins ( though not required ) for my PPL 30 years ago in a C-150 that we owned. My "Instructor" was Hal Goddard, Patty Wagstaf's check pilot. So he knew is stuff. Three turns in a nose heavy C-15 sure starts to wind it up, but it was a blast. I used that knowledge, comfort and skill to get down fast ( intentional spins ) when I was running from a Thunderstorm squall line . Saved my bacon. Bottom line, Go do it and have a ton of fun. Cheers, Kevin Hanna
I mostly flew the normal Cessna and pipers which were easy and safe to fly. Not so these very low wing loading aircraft .we in our club used to refer to them as paper bag aircraft and as such had to be flown all the time. Don’t have enough inertia to glide in properly for landing and best flown in. I think aircraft of the next heavier normal types are easier to fly. Actually the Tiger Moth was much easier and safer to fly
Thanks for capitalizing the name. I was trying to remember on which vintage German aircraft I saw it. I thought they had it on the Fieseler Storch, but yeah, the Ju-52 also has these flaperons (I'm really not sure if they're flaperons or just ailerons, but I'll check if I get the chance. *thinks* I'm planning to visit a friend this week or next week, requiring me to go past Technikmuseum Sinsheim. I could just stop and check if the cockpit has a flaps handle... ;-)
"Region of reverse command" I suppose could apply to how using ailerons to stop a spin is counter productive, but traditionally that phrase applies to the "back side of the power/drag curve" where you have to increase power to maintain a slower airspeed.
We have miniature Piper Cub, bought it a little damaged years ago. It was never flown just crow hopped but it's ground anchors gave way in a wind and flipped it over. Hope to fix and fly it someday. The engine is hardly used but I'm sure will need a full rebuild to be safe also.
Hi Trent, love the kit Fox info thanks. When I was training for my private license years ago, a pilot friend told me I should get my instructor to teach me how to get my into and out of spins. We practiced them a lot even tho the curriculum didn’t require it at that time. They are actually pretty fun. If you haven’t done them, I recommend getting an instructor pilot to show you in a plane that will spin. Flat spins are incredibly rare in small private aircraft because the engines are far forward. I don’t think that’s much of a risk. Anyway, thanks again.
@@throughmylens5127 👍 lesson number two via flight club was spin recovery in a C-152. I annoyed the club trainer with the unending stall horn until he put us into the first spin, and demonstrated the recovery. He then said "I bet you can't do that again" he lost, he said I'm going to put us into our second spin, and you recover. more fun (and💸🛩️ expensive) than a roller coaster.✌️
I love that we can pull the stick all the way back and just feel the buffet long before the stall (in straight and level flight). Great airplanes. Another great video Trent!!
Trent at the end where you picked up the camera and walked in front of the nose, did you notice what a magnificent silhouette on the ground the Kitfox was casting with it's shadow? You almost achieved the kind of visual drama that the old "film noir" directors used to strive for with their fancy lighting. Only you did it in bright sunlight, in the middle of a desert.
Hi Trent! I fly gliders and motorgliders but some things apply to all aircraft. I learned about stalls and spins the same way most people do - training up high and straight and level. An accident in my flying club where a member most likely tried to turn back to a field for an outlanding while low and slow ended in an inadvertent stall/spin too low to recover. After the accident we started to train differently, stalling and spinning gliders from 30, 45 and sometimes 60 degrees angle of bank and many of us were absolutely shocked at how especially high performance gliders handled under these conditions. I had one experience were a glider rolled to inverted and started spinning. I lost almost 1000 feet before I recovered - easily twice of what you would loose entering a spin straight and level in the same glider. Other club members experienced secondary stalls as a result of applying standard recovery procedures under these conditions. Long story short: You nailed it when you said that the way stalls are teached does not reflect the situations likely to kill you. It will be misjudging your turn to final resulting in steeper angle of bank combined with pulling and flying uncoordinated, the "impossible turn" or your unexpected engine failure on climb out (e.g. winch launch or tug failure for gliders...). So thank you for explaining this in your video and it would be really great if you kept exploring this in some way or another!
In Canada we train for spins to get out private pilots licence. Though I agree the kit fox is very hard to get to spin I think the training is crucial even though the scenario has to be forced. When on short final and someone unexpectedly get infront of you your low slow and sloppy things happen. Get an instructor to do it with you. It’s not scary when you learn how to recover. Take car fly safe and I love the videos. Keep it up !!
They used to focus on this in the U.S. but found that more people died training for spins than experiencing them unintentionally... At least that's the story as I've heard it.
"Region of reverse command" has to do with speed and power, there is a speed at which, if you want to go slower, you need to ADD power rather than reduce it. I've never heard it used in the context of stall/spin situations. In regards to stall/spin the emphasis needs to be on ground proximity, when your attention is diverted to objects on the ground and your track across the ground in relation to them. At those times it is very easy to get uncoordinated without realizing it. In addition to the base to final scenario there is also the infamous "moose stall" that has been happening to even seasoned pilots for over 100 years.
@@Zalaniar at a deeper level, the region of reverse command exists due to the fact that beyond the critical angle of attack the relationship between AOA and lift becomes inverted. That phenomenon causes both the inverted speed/power relationship (which "region of reverse command" usually refers to) as well as the reverse aileron effect the author is talking about in this video.
I too believe this to be a better explanation of reverse command. Not that Trent hasn't done a fine job for us with this production He has and thanks for that. Perhaps u can explain a moose stall? New term to me.
Use rudder to pick up a dropping wing rather than aileron (which increases angle of attack and exacerbates the stall). Using rudder increases the lift by accelerating the wing tip and decreasing the angle of attack by increasing the relative wind.
@@srviejo2298 Use elevator, not rudder, when a wing drops in slow flight. Nose down, reduce the AOA, to assure normal aileron functioning - because, without intensive and recent training your reflexes will already have rolled in normal aileron to pick up the dropped wing. And, if you use rudder to pick up the wing, while still holding the stick back, you may well just spin the other way - there are lots of examples of it happening, and it can happen fast. "Use rudder" does work, but it's a maneuver that requires training and proficiency to avoid the instinctive application of aileron and to feather the elevator so it doesn't go very wrong.
Great video Trent. Brain fully fueled, fully engaged. Every time you fly, you become a better pilot. ... Pilots are my favorite people, bar none. ... I sorely miss those Flying Cowboy rendezvous. Low & Slow to Oshkosh was epic. I certainly hope you'll be instrumental in bringing the Flying Cowboys back together ASAP.
8:15-8:45: pure genius by Trent, because of his knowledge of the kitfox, and by Kitfox, because of the design. That's the best 30 seconds of instruction any student pilot will ever receive. Well done, sir!
Yes, a Gorgeous plane very safe! On FS2020 simulator with the Freedom Fox, I staled and crash few times at departure as I was so lazy to be careful. Normally you give full throttle and you get up quickly. But I was turning carelessly as I was getting higher. And one wing staled. But If you stay more focus, never a problem. So I agree, your Kitfox is one of the safest plane! Nice video again! Thanks!
Trent, i've been debating on getting my PPL just to get a KItfox to fly around my small town. This video just helped me make up my mind and fully pursue my dream hobby. Thanks for the very informational video!
Very informative. With my CFI we were having a hard time with both power off and power on stalls. On power off stalls there was no need to firewall when recovering. So much different than the cubs I was in before. These videos are a big help, thank you for doing them. BTW your brother is awesome at helping all of us out on the 2 Kitfox FB pages.
Trent, I so admire your aerodynamic explanations in this vid. They are prercise, correct and understandable. Thank you for your safe and correct description of this aerodynamic maneuver in the Kitfox. Good job man.
During WW2, the Fairey Aircaft Company, in Great Britain, specialised in building planes where the flaps were set below the wing trailing edge. At the time these were called Youngman Flaps. On some of their aircraft these could be set to act as dive brakes.
Cool video Trent. I have limited flight experience (solo circuits was my limit) and I love how you speak to that type of audience (and those with even less experience than me) in an informative yet understated manner. Appreciate your content.
Trent, the best salesman Kitfox has ever had. Especially for those who have never heard about bush planes, experimental aircraft, or STOL planes. I just wish that they would open up a second factory so that production can double and and there wouldn’t be such a long wait list and high prices.
I downloaded the Trent Palmer Kitfox off the MSFS 2020 store and have been really enjoying it. With the failure turned on I recreated the engine out scenario over the exact range where you're really happened just to see if there were any other alternatives. I tried to copy every condition I could come up with. Wind, time, temp for the density altitude, etc. Not much else you could have done.
Thanks for sharing. I just passed my checkride a week and a half ago, so still being a relatively new pilot, these exact problems are always in the back of my mind. Being prepared for a stall, knowing how they happen, and practicing is the best solution.
Hi Trent. I agree with everything you said. You didn’t talk about centre of gravity though. Pilots who go away on a camping trip and load the baggage area will find the handling quite different to the normal unloaded state. Keep moving the cg aft and any aircraft will stall, snap and/or spin. With love, Ken
Hey Trent, excellent observations. On the downside of the thrust line/tail plane inclination, going full power during a go-around can cause a significant pitch up, and stall if not caught fast enough. Although I never spun the kitfox, I had one instance where the wing dropped when I tried to pick it up. Could be even more dangerous if your not expecting it, and may only happen at aft cgs (or with the stock wing that stalls before the tail). At the end of the day I think “just fast enough to kill you” is a plea to not become complacent when aircraft are “safe”.
My plane doesn't want to spin and its not cleared for spinning because it wont recover. Its very benign but if you do have engine failure on take off I don't think most people realise how quick and how far down the nose needs to go. When you demonstrated the forward push that's good because if you feel weightless then you're not asking anything of the wing so it will not stall. You can do that manoeuvre below the stall "speed" and it will work. However, its always best to assume the plane will bit you; and you're right it'll never be straight and level. Power on stalls are really dramatic. Love these videos keep up the good work!
Excellent video as always. I've been fling over 40 years, military, ultralights, gliders, etc. In my opinion, keeping surprises and unknowns to a minimum is key to safe and confident flying. Don't let the spin in your aircraft remain an unknown. Get an "unusual attitude" instructor to go up with you to experience and recover from all types of spins, normal, accelerated, and flat, including their inverted counterparts.
Great video and nice plane. My dad is retired Navy flying C-130s with jato jets in Antarctica , P-3 sub hunters and retired 37 yr B-777 United pilot and line check airman. My younger brother was F-15E WISO and had a beer with a 3 star general about that. I took flight lessons and pussed out. I was confident and comfortable in my take offs and landings, but totally freaked out in my C152 stall - never even been on a roller coaster. I know better now. Maybe try again in the future. Your video is inspiring. I really like the Cub inspired plane is so SLOW but also so SAFE.
Hey glad to see you out there again sorry I've been busy working a lot I'll get to see you again and watch you hope you're doing good glad you still got your license yet take care I'll keep washing for you
Trent, you really need to get some spin training. Suppose you are flying an airplane that’s not so spin resistant as your Kitfox. It’s hard to believe the FAA dropped spins as a requirement for Private Pilot Licenses. Maybe that’s one of the reasons we are seeing so many stall/spin accidents.
@trentpalmer the phenomena you describe of the nose dropping when you pull the power has to do with the way trim works. Trim establishes a "balancing point" for a given AOA. In small, low powered airplanes like most in GA, this coordinates very closely to an airspeed. That's why we learn "stall airspeed" in primary training, and not "stall AOA" (and why most GA airplanes aren't equipped with an AOA indicator. This means that when power is lost, the airplane will naturally seek the AOA for which it is trimmed. In most GA airplanes Vx is very close to Best Glide, so a pilot's best option, in this case, is generally to relax.
Excellent teaching! Videos like this save lives! In approaching technical aspects of spin stalls and putting it in discussion, you are helping to build awareness for pilots of all aircraft.
hey Trent try an uncoordinated Poweron stall and forget to pull power.did that and got into a spin that scared the crap out of me. lucky I was with my instructor for that little mistake. learned a valuable lesson that day.
Some of these aerodynamic and control features are reminiscent of the old Ercoupes. Not only does it have automatic “yaw dampening” to the extent that there are no rudder pedals (although many people later added them), it simply doesn’t want to stall. The elevators run out toward the slow end of the power curve. You can always debate the safety of such things but during normal operation, that’s a nice little feature, imo.
I paused this, having a beer after work with my gf on the deck so Ihavent seen the whole thing. loving the type of aircraft but have to ask what was intentional. Coming from an Engineer, Software/Hardware/Little Electrical, ExSkydiver to be pilot kind of guy. Between the lines? If I could reverse the years, Aerospace Engineer 😂😊
@@TheJacklwilliams I wrote that a year ago, in response to something that is apparently not there any more. I'll have to dig through to see what it was. Mainly, we try like hell not to have unintentional consequences. Every structural decision is made with a purpose...
What I was referring to, as best I can figure, was Trent's comment on whether the takeoff trim being nose down, and the lack of elevator area to force full stall were intentional or not Yes, those design aspects were definitely intentional. (We.also strive to make things idiot proof, but as with most things, the idiots seem to be one release ahead of us....😁)
@@rogerguinn4619 I started looking at these because Ive got the itch and having the ability to land out is massively intriguing to me. The plane ive wanted to fly and quite possibly build for too long is Burt Rutan’s LongEz. I could be way off here but id guess building either today would be about the same cost. The other thing I could be wrong on as Im just starting to peal the onion is the Kitfox would be easier. Im apprehensive about leaning the fiberglass layup to build the EZ. The rest of it, Im cool with though admittedly the learning curve would still be steep.
The ICP Savannah has the same flaperon feature and design, and it behaves exactly like you say about the Kitfox (no spin, no big drop when you stall, and nose down "automatically" after engine loss)... It's such a blast to fly!!!
The PA-20/22 is similar in its stall characteristics and also is short coupled. Its a short wing, so it sinks like a brick, but it doesn't have a tendency to depart. She just rocks a bit forward and back. Now, my RC Freedom Fox is a different story. She loves to crank into a deep spin! I like an rc plane that will spin!
Haven’t been a pilot since 1976 but I absolutely love your videos! Incredible work man, keep it up, great channel! BTW I’m 71 now and want to fly again! 😜
I'm going through flight training and I'm just learning stall spin recovery. It beats any roller coaster, going nose up to pointing at the ground in a fraction of a second. My CFI says everyone should be trained in it.
I want to say I strongly agree with you. I have inadvertently spun a series 7 twice. the first time was during a flight review. ( yes never used that instructor again. ) second was just to see how far we could push the kitfox. The scenario was to pull up beyond vx and climb till we failed. this was also with a instructor during a flight review, just pushing to see how far we could go. both spins were very easy to recover and non violent . i would like to say the scenario does exist in high density during a hard climb. living here in eastern oregon ( klgd) we do get into situations where we may have fished a little to long at doug bar and half to really climb carefully to get out . or coming out of a lunch run with the EAA chapter at big creek. again your info is correct thanks for the vid's
Terrific job describing the workings of a flaperon wing vs a conventional wing. I liked your “Kitfox has your back” too!! I also greatly appreciate you humbly admitting you aren’t trained in spins therefore it wouldn’t be wise to engage in that maneuver for the purpose of content. You’re a great example for all up and coming pilots as well as those who’ve been around a while. Keep up the good work Trent!!! I look forward to the next adventure!! 🤠👍
Trent, sounds like you need to take a trip up to visit your buddies at Kitfox to see how well you explained the design and to answer any questions. Just a great excuse for a road trip with your Kitfox.
This video helps shed some light on what happened to my friend. He lost his life in a PA -12 accident. We still haven't heard anything from the NTSB. All I have are photos when we recovered the plane.
Trent, i wasnt sure about you content, i first watched Jonas Marcinko and fell on your channel, im happy to say you and him are the ones that got me into aviation !!
Stall practice is always good fun, the lessons I had in the Piper Warrior the stall always dipped the left wing down and to the left but as soon as you nosed over it was fine. I could imagine that happening on turning left to final would be a joy ;)
You just have this amazing ability, to explain the Dynamics of your flying and make clear YOUR plane!!! Love your videos! And so can a car Motocycle kill you etc… respect everything you drive or fly!!! Still think you should have been at that meeting with all the great flyers!!( my opinion)!👍👍👍👍 cover your six as always……RS.
I'm as far from being a pilot as you can get, but I actually understand what Trent said. Every potential pilot should study this. Thanks, Trent. You made your channel that much more interesting.
While straight ahead stalls are indeed a bit contrived, part of the point is to recognize a stall before it begins so that corrective action can be taken to prevent the stall altogether. No doubt training with stalls in unusual conditions is also useful
I know only one aircraft that cannot stall. That aircraft is the Concorde. Her wing configuration is such that as the airflow detaches and aerodynamic lift drops, vortex lift increases and sticks the airflow back on the wing continuously. I read somewhere, Concorde can fly level at an AoA of 17 degrees at full power (higher AoA just means the engines can't overcome the induced drag and she starts to lose altitude).
I think every pilot should spin, not just spin entries. After years flying hang gliders, in continuous mountain wave lift, I spun probably the most spinnable sailplane we had for 2 hours doing just this, repeatedly from 10K MSL. I think the awareness and precision you develop doing this is priceless. Sure, every airframe differs, but IMHO found it really similar later flying SEL.
Great description of the spin and how to recover. Just finished my PPL and you were a great part of inspiring me to actually finish it. Thanks for that. It was challenging.
A Phenomenally well-produced and thought-out video, although heavy on your Kit Fox..great info getting back to the basics of stalls/stall-spins Trent. Even for those who might not be current or active pilots for whatever reason, you’ve gone a long way in detailing the ‘what & whys’ of the GA-leading accident cause. Great work!
You need that trim because the aircraft is basically over elevated (for safety if badly handled)...that is the wing incidence (from the mean camber line) to thrust line is such that if enough power was available it would loop without elevator input. This makes the aircraft very longitudinally stable, but the downside of that is more sluggish pitch response and a lot more drag in level flight because the effective down trim on the tail (negative lift) is needed to keep it level, and that trim needs to adjusted for every speed change in level flight.The need for the trim under full power could be corrected by slight downthrust on the engine, which is self correcting vis a vis longitudinal stability, which, as far as longitudinal stability is concerned, effectively changes the mean camber of the wing. Abig factor here is the airfoil section. I see the Kitfox has a flat bottom section, and without negative incidence (which effectively reduces the mean camber, rendering it like a more bi-convex section) the faster the aircraft goes the more over elevated it is. Flat bottom airfoils really need to run over elevated because the centre of lift shifts around a lot more with airspeed changes, which necessitates a forward CG to avoid transition to a longitudinally unstable condition as speed increases and centre of lift shifts to the rear. This can cause a sudden 'tuck' into a downwards, and uncontrollable direction change as the C.O.L. transitions from once side of the CG to the other. All control inputs merely change the position of the C.O.L. and in pitch this can lead to a positive feedback loop and loss of control. Modern fighters are run with a rearward, and unstable, CG position and only the lightning fast reactions of a computer can fly them. For a human they are completely uncontrollable in pitch. The Kitfox is obviously rigged like a 'learner' level aircraft... aerodynamically limited in manoeverability, especially in pitch, but very forgiving vis a vis longtitudinal stability...... yes, like the Cub. Sadly, there's no "free lunches" in aerodynamics, and the most efficient rigging for both lowest drag and maximum pitch response is very close to instability. That is only a tenable situation in specialised aerobatic aircraft that often run symmetrical airfoils to minimise pitch changes when inverted. Carried to the ultimate, such an aircraft needs just a touch of 'down' trim to fly inverted exactly as it does upright where it needs just a touch of 'up'.. Great for aerobatics but inefficient and a bit 'dodgy' for normal use with differing loads, and therefore CG positions.
Nice video with great explanations. I fly a Hiperbipe and am looking at a Model 3. Bipes also have flaperons so the transition should go smoothly. Thx for sharing!
All objects moving through fluid produce some lift, so even a "fully stalled wing" produces some lift, just not much in comparison to a wing flying in a normal situation. A stall is really just a sharp drop off in lift, but never a complete loss of 100% of lift. A spin occurs when one wing is more stalled than the other, which is basically occurring because you stalled while flying uncoordinated. Uncoordinated really just means the relative wind wasn't hitting you head on, but at an angle to your nose.
Hi Henry here, great video, I had to sell my KIT FOX, so sad, but had to do it. However the buyer will let me fly it anytime, as long as He is in the plane with me LOL !! thanks for all your help and encouragement !! be safe Trent.
Thanks for this insightful video. Makes me want to get a Kitfox even more. As a suggestion for the next video: your take on pros and cons of tail dragger vs tricycle
I am one of those life long aviation junkies and to be quite blunt, there are very few aviation channels that I actually watch... They tend to oversimplify to the point of no longer being useful, or are snooty and condescending ... A bit of a confession - I clicked on your video because I recognized the Cub quote and was gearing up to give you the old what for in the comments lol (Itsd NOT about the kitfox.... you know... what I was thinking lol) Well, I clicked subscribe before you we were 5 minutes in. You have an incredibly approachable, engaging way of explaining things - and as Albert Einstein said "if you can't explain something in simple terms, you don't really understand it". You obviously do (AND - this is unheard of from pilots of all people - you have the humility to admit what you don't know). Just kidding about the pilot thing... sort of :D Thanks for a great video I can't wait to explore your channel!
As always, great vid, buddy! I wonder if Kitfox aircraft are reliable in terms of winter flying and if they handle the icing conditions well? Cheers from Ukraine!
I was wondering if Trent would address Nick's crash as for such a safe airplane that he has made it out to be his friend got himself into a situation with one that almost killed him!
my thoughts exactly..😏 what did cause Nick's unfortunate accident bearing all this in mind..his was an earlier type wing without the flaperons ? hope to see more of Nick's posts soon ..🙂
We used to practise spins by climbing to ~10,000 feet. Power off, control column centrally back, full rudder. Count 3 rotations, full rudder opposite to ball, control column centrally forward until control restored, roll to nearest horizon. Typically lost 3 thousand feet. I can still remember it after 40 years. Spin close to the ground is a bad idea!
Trent. Your knowledge of the Kitfox and videos showing how good the aircraft is keeps me interested in flying again. What are your personal thoughts on max crosswind component of the Kitfox?
First time I've ever heard anyone call a rotax a "huge engine". That newer 915 might be a 20-30lbs heavier than the original rotax it was designed for, which is probably just right to offset the moment arm of the larger tailwheel.
@@Skinflaps_Meatslapper True. It is a big engine for that Kitfox. It is the most powerful engine that any kitfox was designed for at 141hp intermittent and 135 continuous. Yes that is small for even a 172 but this is a two seater that is not far removed from an ultralight.
@@crissd8283 The more thrust you have, the more you're able to handle the edge of the aircraft's CG envelope, at least in a conventional tractor configuration. The more air flowing over that elevator means you can lift a heavy nose or tail more readily than you could with less power. It's not a big change, but it's measurable. The downside to this is that you're also able to get into a deeper stall if you keep pulling on the stick, but depending on your ability and preference this can also be a good thing.
Gday mate, I was thinking about obtaining my pilots license, and this video helps me understand a great deal of flying scenarios. Great job mate, thanks. Safe flying.
Im not a pilot but love planes & flying after seeing your videos then seeing Draco being built then flown. I can't remember exactly What caused nicks crash? he stalled a wing correct? How is he doing and how is his build coming along and has he flown again?
Sorry about the beeping from the AOA! I know it’s a bit annoying.
Also, quick reminder that I’m not doing any giveaway and I’m not on telegram, so if you get a comment reply from me make sure it has a check mark next to it. If there’s no checkmark it’s not me!
152 and 172 also drop the nose the instant you loose power in a Vx or Vy climb. It is a function of prop-wash over the tail. You instantly loose down force on the tail when prop wash ceases. With a CG forward of the center of lift, the nose will drop because the tail has to produce a down force to keep it up. With an aft CG, the tail produces up lift instead. An aft CG is unrecoverable in that scenario, as the nose would pitch up, and the pilot would likely not respond in time. I am an instructor. This lesson is on the house.
Thanks again Trent....Old Navy flying Shoe🇺🇸
You shouldn't have said that. I'm sure they're going to add a check mark. I JUST deleted a spam message from them.
Even so, Gimme a prize, YO! Errrr, never mind
I just saw this now.... Hopefully I don’t get a boat load of spam!
The beeping only makes us understand your situation.
NOBODY is doing more approachable, accessible videos on aircraft, flying and adventure. Great work, once again, Trent.
On that note, please check out Josh Flowers' youtube channel "Aviation101".....you will really enjoy his content.
Exactly
@@easttexan2933 Seen it. Not impressed
@@462rob to each his own opinion but his flights to Alaska and the Grand Canyon, his sea plane ratings, I mean, come on man. Doesn't get any better than that.
Trent is why i bought my plane. Got hurt and in debt so couldnt get my license then but hopefully soon
I grew up in my dad's 1946 Taylorcraft. He was a big proponent of stall and spin recovery and we did a ton of mountain flying. As he was teaching me to fly, and just all the time in general, we would often go up a couple thousand feet and just stall and spin for fun. By the time I was 15 I could put the plane into and get out of a power on and off stall, a high wing stall, and spin in both direction. He would just say, okay, spin it 2 complete rotations left or 3 rotations right or can you do 1 1/2 rotations. Just to practice being able to control the spin and take it out right where you wanted it. Loved that plane. He had it for almost 30 years and then sold it to buy the engine for his RV-8. The RV was a kick in the pants but I missed the old T-cart. Your Kitfox and flying remind me so much of him and that plane. He had an engine failure twice and was able to glide out to the airfield. The first time we just rebuilt the C-85. The second time he got and STC and replaced the C-85 with an O-200. That plane was a whole new animal with the 100 HP! I fully appreciate the difference you feel with the new engine. It's an awesome experience.
Almost 30 years ago, my grandfather had recently sold his Aeronca Chief, then got the itch again, and bought a Kitfox, and I, at 15, got to watch him build it from start to finish. He splurged and got a larger motor and put it on floats, so that obviously changed the stall characteristics and overall manoeuvrability slightly, but he still raved about how amazing and easy this plane was to fly.
Cancer unfortunately got him shortly after building it, but every time I watch one of your videos I think of him, which puts a smile on my face 😊
I feel like I watched a 10 min Kitfox ad, and I loved every second of it.
all of Trent's posts are an ad for kitfox..I wldn't buy anything else after watching them...lol..but I'm broke so I'm building a Legal Eagle...🤠
I worked for Dan Denney back in 1984 to 1985 when he was building KITFOX kits out of a warehouse near Curtis St and I-84 in Boise, ID. I made flaperons and put kits together in crates to ship all over the US. A basic kit back then was about 10 Grand. We had 3 engine options and were just starting to have floats as an option for people that wanted a KITFOX float plane. Good stuff.
How much are the kitfox now?
Unsure. $20K to $40K depending on options ... that would be my guess.
@@winchesternathan
Tnx.
Love the technical stuff! I became aware of the "junkers-style" flaperons' unique characteristic shortly after getting our plane (not a Kitfox, but very similar). The other benefit of being able to "lift a stalled wing" - as you said - is it makes those very slow approaches just above stall speed safer, since you can actually use the ailerons to keep the wings level without fear of stalling a wing like on a Supercub for example where you can only use rudder. But I fear it might teach bad habits 😏
I do worry about the habits it teaches
@@TrentonPalmer Junkers = yeung kers ;)
I love your newer style of making documentaries on pilots and how they use flying in their lives, while also having a touch of your own flying shenanigans, while also showing us things from you personal life like building a house. Great work Trent!
I inadvertently put myself into a spin during my PP training. I was doing solo practice power off stalls in a 172. I had done them several times with my instructor and solo just fine. However one time I didn’t recover and the plane dumped hard left after adding power. Within a second or two, I was nose straight down spinning what felt like an eternity. Two things saved me though…1) always do stall practice higher. I was close to 2500 AGL. And about a week earlier my instructor informally told me “PEAR” for spin recovery. P-Power down or Pull throttle. E-Elevators neutral. A-Ailerons neutral. R-Rudder hard to opposite side of spin. Having seen the Earth spin around a few times directly ahead of me, PEAR came into my head. I immediately pulled the throttle, yoke was straight, and smashed the right rudder pedal. Within a second, the plane stopped spinning and I was able to slowly raise the nose and level out around 2000’ AGL followed by adding power. I had lost close to 500’ within seconds.
Scared the sh** out of me, but I was thankful my instructor took some time to explain spins during a lesson. Something I think should definitely be taught during training. Also thankful, the 172 is an easy plane to recover.
Spin recovery was one of the first thing I was taught in the 172. Love practicing them. Such an easy recovery. But once again, always around 3000 agl. Yup, lose 500' in the blink of an eye, practicing gets that down.
@@valkyriesride129 It's not really taught anymore since it isn't tested, at least for PP. I wish I had done it the first time with the instructor in the plane, but I know now I can get myself out if/when it happens again.
I went into a spin in a 172 power on stall also. My instructor yelled "my plane" and it didn't make a full rotation before he recovered. I didn't catch what he did, so I asked him what he did and he indicated "PEAR" as well.
Unfortunately they can't teach (us in the U.S.) spins in a 172 as it's not rated as aerobatic. Jason Miller suggests going and finding someone to teach them to you in such a plane. I have not done so, but I am more careful in power-on stalls after that.
@@sandyprice 172s are approved for spins in the utility category. Unfortunately most flying clubs and flight schools prohibit spin instruction in their aircraft even though it can be done safely and legally. It’s hard on gyros but spin training is priceless (and has kept me out of trouble on more than one occasion).
During my PP training instructor had combined power on stalls with simulated instrumentt at about 4000 agl.I failed to maintain coordination and spun the plane.I recognized what was happening and recovered, but lost about 1500 ft in the process. Instructor sat there with his arms crossed and just said "Nice spin". Lesson learned: Proper coordination is critical, and had this happened during takeoff it would quite likely be fatal.
Oh, a Kitfox will spin with a lot less effort than you think and it will stay in until you do your part. Unaggravated, Its actually pretty comparable to most Citabrias and Decathlons. Although with the authority of flaperons, and relatively low inertia and higher rpm of the prop, certain aggravated spin modes would get interesting and the similarities would end there.
The issue comes down to experimentals (even certified aircraft with multiple aerodynamic STCs) and their dissimilarities. In the world of spin dynamics, some parts or combinations of parts don’t play well with each other. Like you said, each aircraft is an example of one.
Hello there 👋👋, how are you doing today?hope you’re having a good day?God bless you!!!❤️
Man Trent,
You got to get some spin training.
Not just cuz it is generally a great idea,
BUT IT IS A BLAST.
I did spins ( though not required ) for my PPL 30 years ago in a C-150 that we owned.
My "Instructor" was Hal Goddard, Patty Wagstaf's check pilot. So he knew is stuff.
Three turns in a nose heavy C-15 sure starts to wind it up, but it was a blast.
I used that knowledge, comfort and skill to get down fast ( intentional spins ) when I was running from a Thunderstorm squall line .
Saved my bacon.
Bottom line,
Go do it and have a ton of fun.
Cheers,
Kevin Hanna
Hello there 👋👋, how are you doing today?hope you’re having a good day?God bless you!!!❤️
I mostly flew the normal Cessna and pipers which were easy and safe to fly. Not so these very low wing loading aircraft .we in our club used to refer to them as paper bag aircraft and as such had to be flown all the time. Don’t have enough inertia to glide in properly for landing and best flown in. I think aircraft of the next heavier normal types are easier to fly. Actually the Tiger Moth was much easier and safer to fly
Hello there 👋👋, how are you doing today?hope you’re having a good day?God bless you!!!❤️
This was an excellent talk, Trent. I have never heard a better explanation of how a Junkers-style flaperon works. Thank you. Stay safe. 😊🤙🏼
Thanks for capitalizing the name. I was trying to remember on which vintage German aircraft I saw it. I thought they had it on the Fieseler Storch, but yeah, the Ju-52 also has these flaperons (I'm really not sure if they're flaperons or just ailerons, but I'll check if I get the chance. *thinks* I'm planning to visit a friend this week or next week, requiring me to go past Technikmuseum Sinsheim. I could just stop and check if the cockpit has a flaps handle... ;-)
@@realulli That would be fun to know! 😊
"Region of reverse command" I suppose could apply to how using ailerons to stop a spin is counter productive, but traditionally that phrase applies to the "back side of the power/drag curve" where you have to increase power to maintain a slower airspeed.
We have miniature Piper Cub, bought it a little damaged years ago. It was never flown just crow hopped but it's ground anchors gave way in a wind and flipped it over. Hope to fix and fly it someday. The engine is hardly used but I'm sure will need a full rebuild to be safe also.
Is it a J-3 Kitten, N3 Pup?
Hi Trent, love the kit Fox info thanks. When I was training for my private license years ago, a pilot friend told me I should get my instructor to teach me how to get my into and out of spins. We practiced them a lot even tho the curriculum didn’t require it at that time. They are actually pretty fun. If you haven’t done them, I recommend getting an instructor pilot to show you in a plane that will spin. Flat spins are incredibly rare in small private aircraft because the engines are far forward. I don’t think that’s much of a risk. Anyway, thanks again.
Almost put a Cessna 152 into a spin but plane straightened out by itself
@@throughmylens5127 👍
lesson number two via flight club was spin recovery in a C-152.
I annoyed the club trainer with the unending stall horn until he put us into the first spin, and demonstrated the recovery. He then said "I bet you can't do that again" he lost, he said I'm going to put us into our second spin, and you recover.
more fun (and💸🛩️ expensive) than a roller coaster.✌️
I love that we can pull the stick all the way back and just feel the buffet long before the stall (in straight and level flight). Great airplanes. Another great video Trent!!
Trent at the end where you picked up the camera and walked in front of the nose, did you notice what a magnificent silhouette on the ground the Kitfox was casting with it's shadow? You almost achieved the kind of visual drama that the old "film noir" directors used to strive for with their fancy lighting. Only you did it in bright sunlight, in the middle of a desert.
Hi Trent! I fly gliders and motorgliders but some things apply to all aircraft. I learned about stalls and spins the same way most people do - training up high and straight and level. An accident in my flying club where a member most likely tried to turn back to a field for an outlanding while low and slow ended in an inadvertent stall/spin too low to recover. After the accident we started to train differently, stalling and spinning gliders from 30, 45 and sometimes 60 degrees angle of bank and many of us were absolutely shocked at how especially high performance gliders handled under these conditions. I had one experience were a glider rolled to inverted and started spinning. I lost almost 1000 feet before I recovered - easily twice of what you would loose entering a spin straight and level in the same glider. Other club members experienced secondary stalls as a result of applying standard recovery procedures under these conditions. Long story short: You nailed it when you said that the way stalls are teached does not reflect the situations likely to kill you. It will be misjudging your turn to final resulting in steeper angle of bank combined with pulling and flying uncoordinated, the "impossible turn" or your unexpected engine failure on climb out (e.g. winch launch or tug failure for gliders...). So thank you for explaining this in your video and it would be really great if you kept exploring this in some way or another!
In Canada we train for spins to get out private pilots licence. Though I agree the kit fox is very hard to get to spin I think the training is crucial even though the scenario has to be forced. When on short final and someone unexpectedly get infront of you your low slow and sloppy things happen. Get an instructor to do it with you. It’s not scary when you learn how to recover. Take car fly safe and I love the videos. Keep it up !!
They used to focus on this in the U.S. but found that more people died training for spins than experiencing them unintentionally... At least that's the story as I've heard it.
"Region of reverse command" has to do with speed and power, there is a speed at which, if you want to go slower, you need to ADD power rather than reduce it. I've never heard it used in the context of stall/spin situations. In regards to stall/spin the emphasis needs to be on ground proximity, when your attention is diverted to objects on the ground and your track across the ground in relation to them. At those times it is very easy to get uncoordinated without realizing it. In addition to the base to final scenario there is also the infamous "moose stall" that has been happening to even seasoned pilots for over 100 years.
Came here to say this. Region of reverse command really has nothing to do with ailerons at all.
@@Zalaniar at a deeper level, the region of reverse command exists due to the fact that beyond the critical angle of attack the relationship between AOA and lift becomes inverted. That phenomenon causes both the inverted speed/power relationship (which "region of reverse command" usually refers to) as well as the reverse aileron effect the author is talking about in this video.
I too believe this to be a better explanation of reverse command. Not that Trent hasn't done a fine job for us with this production
He has and thanks for that.
Perhaps u can explain a moose stall? New term to me.
Use rudder to pick up a dropping wing rather than aileron (which increases angle of attack and exacerbates the stall). Using rudder increases the lift by accelerating the wing tip and decreasing the angle of attack by increasing the relative wind.
@@srviejo2298 Use elevator, not rudder, when a wing drops in slow flight. Nose down, reduce the AOA, to assure normal aileron functioning - because, without intensive and recent training your reflexes will already have rolled in normal aileron to pick up the dropped wing. And, if you use rudder to pick up the wing, while still holding the stick back, you may well just spin the other way - there are lots of examples of it happening, and it can happen fast. "Use rudder" does work, but it's a maneuver that requires training and proficiency to avoid the instinctive application of aileron and to feather the elevator so it doesn't go very wrong.
Great video Trent. Brain fully fueled, fully engaged. Every time you fly, you become a better pilot. ... Pilots are my favorite people, bar none. ... I sorely miss those Flying Cowboy rendezvous. Low & Slow to Oshkosh was epic. I certainly hope you'll be instrumental in bringing the Flying Cowboys back together ASAP.
8:15-8:45: pure genius by Trent, because of his knowledge of the kitfox, and by Kitfox, because of the design. That's the best 30 seconds of instruction any student pilot will ever receive. Well done, sir!
Yes, a Gorgeous plane very safe! On FS2020 simulator with the Freedom Fox, I staled and crash few times at departure as I was so lazy to be careful. Normally you give full throttle and you get up quickly. But I was turning carelessly as I was getting higher. And one wing staled. But If you stay more focus, never a problem. So I agree, your Kitfox is one of the safest plane!
Nice video again! Thanks!
Trent, i've been debating on getting my PPL just to get a KItfox to fly around my small town. This video just helped me make up my mind and fully pursue my dream hobby. Thanks for the very informational video!
Very informative. With my CFI we were having a hard time with both power off and power on stalls. On power off stalls there was no need to firewall when recovering. So much different than the cubs I was in before. These videos are a big help, thank you for doing them. BTW your brother is awesome at helping all of us out on the 2 Kitfox FB pages.
Trent, I so admire your aerodynamic explanations in this vid. They are prercise, correct and understandable. Thank you for your safe and correct description of this aerodynamic maneuver in the Kitfox. Good job man.
As a newly minted private pilot with my eyes on the STOL world, I really like and appreciate this conversational tutorial. Nice work.
Best explanation of why countering wing drop in a spin with aileron will make the wing drop even worse. Well done!
Hello there 👋👋, how are you doing today?hope you’re having a good day?God bless you!!!❤️
During WW2, the Fairey Aircaft Company, in Great Britain, specialised in building planes where the flaps were set below the wing trailing edge. At the time these were called Youngman Flaps. On some of their aircraft these could be set to act as dive brakes.
Cool video Trent. I have limited flight experience (solo circuits was my limit) and I love how you speak to that type of audience (and those with even less experience than me) in an informative yet understated manner. Appreciate your content.
Trent, the best salesman Kitfox has ever had. Especially for those who have never heard about bush planes, experimental aircraft, or STOL planes. I just wish that they would open up a second factory so that production can double and and there wouldn’t be such a long wait list and high prices.
I downloaded the Trent Palmer Kitfox off the MSFS 2020 store and have been really enjoying it. With the failure turned on I recreated the engine out scenario over the exact range where you're really happened just to see if there were any other alternatives. I tried to copy every condition I could come up with. Wind, time, temp for the density altitude, etc. Not much else you could have done.
Thanks for sharing. I just passed my checkride a week and a half ago, so still being a relatively new pilot, these exact problems are always in the back of my mind. Being prepared for a stall, knowing how they happen, and practicing is the best solution.
Great video! Loving this blend of adventure, education, and features of other pilots and the flying they do.
Great explanation of Flaperons
Hello there 👋👋, how are you doing today?hope you’re having a good day?God bless you!!!❤️
I like the safety orientation of this video. Keep them coming. Great for new pilots and the aviation community.
Thanks.
That's one NICE aircraft in so many ways, Trent! Perfect for the type of flying you do. Very impressive slow flight / high AOA characteristics!
Hi Trent. I agree with everything you said. You didn’t talk about centre of gravity though. Pilots who go away on a camping trip and load the baggage area will find the handling quite different to the normal unloaded state. Keep moving the cg aft and any aircraft will stall, snap and/or spin. With love, Ken
Hey Trent, excellent observations. On the downside of the thrust line/tail plane inclination, going full power during a go-around can cause a significant pitch up, and stall if not caught fast enough. Although I never spun the kitfox, I had one instance where the wing dropped when I tried to pick it up. Could be even more dangerous if your not expecting it, and may only happen at aft cgs (or with the stock wing that stalls before the tail). At the end of the day I think “just fast enough to kill you” is a plea to not become complacent when aircraft are “safe”.
My plane doesn't want to spin and its not cleared for spinning because it wont recover. Its very benign but if you do have engine failure on take off I don't think most people realise how quick and how far down the nose needs to go. When you demonstrated the forward push that's good because if you feel weightless then you're not asking anything of the wing so it will not stall. You can do that manoeuvre below the stall "speed" and it will work. However, its always best to assume the plane will bit you; and you're right it'll never be straight and level. Power on stalls are really dramatic. Love these videos keep up the good work!
You are a good communicator of flight. This and your tail wheel monster flick are really well done and easy to understand.
Excellent video as always. I've been fling over 40 years, military, ultralights, gliders, etc. In my opinion, keeping surprises and unknowns to a minimum is key to safe and confident flying. Don't let the spin in your aircraft remain an unknown. Get an "unusual attitude" instructor to go up with you to experience and recover from all types of spins, normal, accelerated, and flat, including their inverted counterparts.
Great video and nice plane. My dad is retired Navy flying C-130s with jato jets in Antarctica , P-3 sub hunters and retired 37 yr B-777 United pilot and line check airman. My younger brother was F-15E WISO and had a beer with a 3 star general about that. I took flight lessons and pussed out. I was confident and comfortable in my take offs and landings, but totally freaked out in my C152 stall - never even been on a roller coaster. I know better now. Maybe try again in the future. Your video is inspiring. I really like the Cub inspired plane is so SLOW but also so SAFE.
I'm on the lookout for a Kitfox in the UK - love how they look, you've sold me on how they fly. Hopefully I can find one and fly it myself soon 🤘
Hey glad to see you out there again sorry I've been busy working a lot I'll get to see you again and watch you hope you're doing good glad you still got your license yet take care I'll keep washing for you
Trent, you really need to get some spin training. Suppose you are flying an airplane that’s not so spin resistant as your Kitfox. It’s hard to believe the FAA dropped spins as a requirement for Private Pilot Licenses. Maybe that’s one of the reasons we are seeing so many stall/spin accidents.
@trentpalmer the phenomena you describe of the nose dropping when you pull the power has to do with the way trim works. Trim establishes a "balancing point" for a given AOA. In small, low powered airplanes like most in GA, this coordinates very closely to an airspeed. That's why we learn "stall airspeed" in primary training, and not "stall AOA" (and why most GA airplanes aren't equipped with an AOA indicator. This means that when power is lost, the airplane will naturally seek the AOA for which it is trimmed. In most GA airplanes Vx is very close to Best Glide, so a pilot's best option, in this case, is generally to relax.
Excellent topic and discussion Trent! Very well told and with great explanations. Keep up the good work!
This is extremely valuable information! Thank You!
Best Kit Fox advertisement
Intentional or Unintentional
LOVE your content. Glad FAA fiasco is behind ya.
Excellent teaching! Videos like this save lives! In approaching technical aspects of spin stalls and putting it in discussion, you are helping to build awareness for pilots of all aircraft.
hey Trent try an uncoordinated Poweron stall and forget to pull power.did that and got into a spin that scared the crap out of me. lucky I was with my instructor for that little mistake. learned a valuable lesson that day.
What plane were you flying?
Some of these aerodynamic and control features are reminiscent of the old Ercoupes. Not only does it have automatic “yaw dampening” to the extent that there are no rudder pedals (although many people later added them), it simply doesn’t want to stall. The elevators run out toward the slow end of the power curve. You can always debate the safety of such things but during normal operation, that’s a nice little feature, imo.
I love this video sooo hard! It's so heartwarming to see a guy who really loves his aircraft
I can almost guarantee that it is intentional, speaking as someone who has spent a long career in aerospace design and analysis.
I paused this, having a beer after work with my gf on the deck so Ihavent seen the whole thing. loving the type of aircraft but have to ask what was intentional. Coming from an Engineer, Software/Hardware/Little Electrical, ExSkydiver to be pilot kind of guy. Between the lines? If I could reverse the years, Aerospace Engineer 😂😊
@@TheJacklwilliams I wrote that a year ago, in response to something that is apparently not there any more. I'll have to dig through to see what it was.
Mainly, we try like hell not to have unintentional consequences. Every structural decision is made with a purpose...
@@rogerguinn4619 Thank you and thats a committment to excellence that i can get behind.
What I was referring to, as best I can figure, was Trent's comment on whether the takeoff trim being nose down, and the lack of elevator area to force full stall were intentional or not
Yes, those design aspects were definitely intentional.
(We.also strive to make things idiot proof, but as with most things, the idiots seem to be one release ahead of us....😁)
@@rogerguinn4619 I started looking at these because Ive got the itch and having the ability to land out is massively intriguing to me. The plane ive wanted to fly and quite possibly build for too long is Burt Rutan’s LongEz. I could be way off here but id guess building either today would be about the same cost. The other thing I could be wrong on as Im just starting to peal the onion is the Kitfox would be easier. Im apprehensive about leaning the fiberglass layup to build the EZ. The rest of it, Im cool with though admittedly the learning curve would still be steep.
I love that I recognize what you talk about from flying the MSFS addon of your plane! Always find that so cool...
Keep up the amazing work!
The ICP Savannah has the same flaperon feature and design, and it behaves exactly like you say about the Kitfox (no spin, no big drop when you stall, and nose down "automatically" after engine loss)... It's such a blast to fly!!!
The PA-20/22 is similar in its stall characteristics and also is short coupled. Its a short wing, so it sinks like a brick, but it doesn't have a tendency to depart. She just rocks a bit forward and back. Now, my RC Freedom Fox is a different story. She loves to crank into a deep spin! I like an rc plane that will spin!
Haven’t been a pilot since 1976 but I absolutely love your videos! Incredible work man, keep it up, great channel! BTW I’m 71 now and want to fly again! 😜
No reason why you can’t!
I'm going through flight training and I'm just learning stall spin recovery. It beats any roller coaster, going nose up to pointing at the ground in a fraction of a second. My CFI says everyone should be trained in it.
I want to say I strongly agree with you. I have inadvertently spun a series 7 twice. the first time was during a flight review. ( yes never used that instructor again. ) second was just to see how far we could push the kitfox. The scenario was to pull up beyond vx and climb till we failed. this was also with a instructor during a flight review, just pushing to see how far we could go. both spins were very easy to recover and non violent . i would like to say the scenario does exist in high density during a hard climb. living here in eastern oregon ( klgd) we do get into situations where we may have fished a little to long at doug bar and half to really climb carefully to get out . or coming out of a lunch run with the EAA chapter at big creek. again your info is correct thanks for the vid's
This was new info to me! Thanks for sharing it.
Hello there 👋👋, how are you doing today?hope you’re having a good day?God bless you!!!❤️
Terrific job describing the workings of a flaperon wing vs a conventional wing. I liked your “Kitfox has your back” too!! I also greatly appreciate you humbly admitting you aren’t trained in spins therefore it wouldn’t be wise to engage in that maneuver for the purpose of content. You’re a great example for all up and coming pilots as well as those who’ve been around a while. Keep up the good work Trent!!! I look forward to the next adventure!! 🤠👍
Thanks Rob!
Trent, sounds like you need to take a trip up to visit your buddies at Kitfox to see how well you explained the design and to answer any questions. Just a great excuse for a road trip with your Kitfox.
This video helps shed some light on what happened to my friend. He lost his life in a PA -12 accident. We still haven't heard anything from the NTSB. All I have are photos when we recovered the plane.
I’m so sorry to hear about your friend 😔
Excellent channel!
You articulate your information on your airplane, stalls, and spins, very well!
Best of flying!
Trent, i wasnt sure about you content, i first watched Jonas Marcinko and fell on your channel, im happy to say you and him are the ones that got me into aviation !!
Wow, thank you 🙏🏻
William Smith-Trent, your comfort and camera presence are very professional. You should look in to doing commercial's. Enjoy your work.
Hello there 👋👋, how are you doing today?hope you’re having a good day?God bless you!!!❤️
Stall practice is always good fun, the lessons I had in the Piper Warrior the stall always dipped the left wing down and to the left but as soon as you nosed over it was fine. I could imagine that happening on turning left to final would be a joy ;)
I like that pitch over, an unloaded wing cannot stall, great design 👍
As always great information in a great way of showing it!!! Amazing again Trent!!
You just have this amazing ability, to explain the Dynamics of your flying and make clear YOUR plane!!! Love your videos! And so can a car Motocycle kill you etc… respect everything you drive or fly!!! Still think you should have been at that meeting with all the great flyers!!( my opinion)!👍👍👍👍 cover your six as always……RS.
Thanks Ray!
I'm as far from being a pilot as you can get, but I actually understand what Trent said. Every potential pilot should study this. Thanks, Trent. You made your channel that much more interesting.
While straight ahead stalls are indeed a bit contrived, part of the point is to recognize a stall before it begins so that corrective action can be taken to prevent the stall altogether. No doubt training with stalls in unusual conditions is also useful
I also fly Kitfox. Mine is a series 6 tail wheel with a Continental IO 240.
That's the best explanation of reverse control i've heard, especially against the Junkers style alternative config.
I know only one aircraft that cannot stall. That aircraft is the Concorde. Her wing configuration is such that as the airflow detaches and aerodynamic lift drops, vortex lift increases and sticks the airflow back on the wing continuously. I read somewhere, Concorde can fly level at an AoA of 17 degrees at full power (higher AoA just means the engines can't overcome the induced drag and she starts to lose altitude).
I think every pilot should spin, not just spin entries. After years flying hang gliders, in continuous mountain wave lift, I spun probably the most spinnable sailplane we had for 2 hours doing just this, repeatedly from 10K MSL. I think the awareness and precision you develop doing this is priceless. Sure, every airframe differs, but IMHO found it really similar later flying SEL.
Great description of the spin and how to recover. Just finished my PPL and you were a great part of inspiring me to actually finish it. Thanks for that. It was challenging.
As a CFI your aerodynamic knowledge is top notch! Respect
Thanks Andrew 🙏🏻
A Phenomenally well-produced and thought-out video, although heavy on your Kit Fox..great info getting back to the basics of stalls/stall-spins Trent. Even for those who might not be current or active pilots for whatever reason, you’ve gone a long way in detailing the ‘what & whys’ of the GA-leading accident cause. Great work!
You need that trim because the aircraft is basically over elevated (for safety if badly handled)...that is the wing incidence (from the mean camber line) to thrust line is such that if enough power was available it would loop without elevator input. This makes the aircraft very longitudinally stable, but the downside of that is more sluggish pitch response and a lot more drag in level flight because the effective down trim on the tail (negative lift) is needed to keep it level, and that trim needs to adjusted for every speed change in level flight.The need for the trim under full power could be corrected by slight downthrust on the engine, which is self correcting vis a vis longitudinal stability, which, as far as longitudinal stability is concerned, effectively changes the mean camber of the wing.
Abig factor here is the airfoil section. I see the Kitfox has a flat bottom section, and without negative incidence (which effectively reduces the mean camber, rendering it like a more bi-convex section) the faster the aircraft goes the more over elevated it is. Flat bottom airfoils really need to run over elevated because the centre of lift shifts around a lot more with airspeed changes, which necessitates a forward CG to avoid transition to a longitudinally unstable condition as speed increases and centre of lift shifts to the rear. This can cause a sudden 'tuck' into a downwards, and uncontrollable direction change as the C.O.L. transitions from once side of the CG to the other. All control inputs merely change the position of the C.O.L. and in pitch this can lead to a positive feedback loop and loss of control.
Modern fighters are run with a rearward, and unstable, CG position and only the lightning fast reactions of a computer can fly them. For a human they are completely uncontrollable in pitch.
The Kitfox is obviously rigged like a 'learner' level aircraft... aerodynamically limited in manoeverability, especially in pitch, but very forgiving vis a vis longtitudinal stability...... yes, like the Cub.
Sadly, there's no "free lunches" in aerodynamics, and the most efficient rigging for both lowest drag and maximum pitch response is very close to instability. That is only a tenable situation in specialised aerobatic aircraft that often run symmetrical airfoils to minimise pitch changes when inverted. Carried to the ultimate, such an aircraft needs just a touch of 'down' trim to fly inverted exactly as it does upright where it needs just a touch of 'up'.. Great for aerobatics but inefficient and a bit 'dodgy' for normal use with differing loads, and therefore CG positions.
Nice video with great explanations. I fly a Hiperbipe and am looking at a Model 3. Bipes also have flaperons so the transition should go smoothly. Thx for sharing!
All objects moving through fluid produce some lift, so even a "fully stalled wing" produces some lift, just not much in comparison to a wing flying in a normal situation. A stall is really just a sharp drop off in lift, but never a complete loss of 100% of lift. A spin occurs when one wing is more stalled than the other, which is basically occurring because you stalled while flying uncoordinated. Uncoordinated really just means the relative wind wasn't hitting you head on, but at an angle to your nose.
Love your channel Trent, you always explain very well, always find interesting content even us old guys aren't aware of.
Thank you, for explaining the facts behind
the detached aileron on the Stuka. I always
wondered why Junkers did that.
steve
Hi Henry here, great video, I had to sell my KIT FOX, so sad, but had to do it. However the buyer will let me fly it anytime, as long as He is in the plane with me LOL !! thanks for all your help and encouragement !! be safe Trent.
Thanks for this insightful video. Makes me want to get a Kitfox even more. As a suggestion for the next video: your take on pros and cons of tail dragger vs tricycle
I am one of those life long aviation junkies and to be quite blunt, there are very few aviation channels that I actually watch... They tend to oversimplify to the point of no longer being useful, or are snooty and condescending ... A bit of a confession - I clicked on your video because I recognized the Cub quote and was gearing up to give you the old what for in the comments lol (Itsd NOT about the kitfox.... you know... what I was thinking lol) Well, I clicked subscribe before you we were 5 minutes in. You have an incredibly approachable, engaging way of explaining things - and as Albert Einstein said "if you can't explain something in simple terms, you don't really understand it". You obviously do (AND - this is unheard of from pilots of all people - you have the humility to admit what you don't know). Just kidding about the pilot thing... sort of :D Thanks for a great video I can't wait to explore your channel!
Good call not intentionally inducing a spin. It is one of the more dangerous maneuvers. Flat spins can be difficult to recover from.
As always, great vid, buddy!
I wonder if Kitfox aircraft are reliable in terms of winter flying and if they handle the icing conditions well?
Cheers from Ukraine!
Ya don't need winter for ice
Trent : “the kitfox can barely kill you”
Nick : “am I a joke to you?”
😂
That was my thought...
I was thinking of Nick during this entire video!
Don’t get to confident in your KF bailing you out.
I was wondering if Trent would address Nick's crash as for such a safe airplane that he has made it out to be his friend got himself into a situation with one that almost killed him!
That's exactly what I thought! ' ol Nick just barely got killed ' !
my thoughts exactly..😏
what did cause Nick's unfortunate accident bearing all this in mind..his was an earlier type wing without the flaperons ?
hope to see more of Nick's posts soon ..🙂
We used to practise spins by climbing to ~10,000 feet. Power off, control column centrally back, full rudder. Count 3 rotations, full rudder opposite to ball, control column centrally forward until control restored, roll to nearest horizon. Typically lost 3 thousand feet. I can still remember it after 40 years. Spin close to the ground is a bad idea!
What an amazing design on your plane. Excellent flying and video.
That Flaperon is an ingenious idea! I cant believe that all GA aircraft don't have something similar to that system! Why have I never heard of this!😲
Trent. Your knowledge of the Kitfox and videos showing how good the aircraft is keeps me interested in flying again. What are your personal thoughts on max crosswind component of the Kitfox?
You also have a huge engine up front moving your CG forward and making it harder to stall.
First time I've ever heard anyone call a rotax a "huge engine". That newer 915 might be a 20-30lbs heavier than the original rotax it was designed for, which is probably just right to offset the moment arm of the larger tailwheel.
@@Skinflaps_Meatslapper True. It is a big engine for that Kitfox. It is the most powerful engine that any kitfox was designed for at 141hp intermittent and 135 continuous. Yes that is small for even a 172 but this is a two seater that is not far removed from an ultralight.
@@crissd8283 The more thrust you have, the more you're able to handle the edge of the aircraft's CG envelope, at least in a conventional tractor configuration. The more air flowing over that elevator means you can lift a heavy nose or tail more readily than you could with less power. It's not a big change, but it's measurable. The downside to this is that you're also able to get into a deeper stall if you keep pulling on the stick, but depending on your ability and preference this can also be a good thing.
Best video content you've made, Trent, at least as far as I am concerned. Thanks for sharing.
DO NOT DM ANYONE ON TELEGRAM. SCAM
Thank you trent. Very interesting video. I am not a pilot but I want to be. I now realize I've seen a ton of your videos. Thank you for them.
Gday mate, I was thinking about obtaining my pilots license, and this video helps me understand a great deal of flying scenarios.
Great job mate, thanks.
Safe flying.
Im not a pilot but love planes & flying after seeing your videos then seeing Draco being built then flown. I can't remember exactly What caused nicks crash? he stalled a wing correct? How is he doing and how is his build coming along and has he flown again?