@@tereza1959with ASOIAF it is always verry hard to class characters into the common tropes. However Tywin does still learn towards the villainous side as he is a tyrant (in politics and concerning his children), takes away glory from people like Kevan and Tyrion, knows neither decency nor mercy and rules only through fear. That doesn‘t mean however that his motives are evil nor reasonable.
Stannis: (paraphrasing) The first time I saw the Iron Throne I was so little Robert had to hold my hand I was so nervous. But we both agreed the King had been as gracious as the dragons were fearsome. It was only later that I learned that Ayres had cut his had before, it was Tywin Lannister who had charmed us such."
“I remember the first time my father took me to court, Robert had to hold my hand. I could not have been older than four, which would have made him five or six. We agreed afterward that the king had been as noble as the dragons were fearsome." Stannis snorted. "Years later, our father told us that Aerys had cut himself on the throne that morning, so his Hand had taken his place. It was Tywin Lannister who'd so impressed us."
By far one of the most frustrating things about analizing Tywin is that we don't have any POV chapters with him. It leaves him way more open to the reader's interpretation.
Tywin's hypocrisy is one of my favorite aspects of his character, particularly in how his entire motivation revolves around never wanting his house to experience the shame his father left on his house. As much as he tries to spin it, as much as he tries to frame it as a fact, Tywin is a very, very insecure man who wants his pride validated by the twisted schemes and horrific orders he commands. He is amazingly well written, and it's easy to ignore this true depth because of the power fantasy he presents. Tywin is ambitious, cunning, intellectual, practical and powerful, but there is nobody who indulges in this power fantasy more than Tywin himself.
I always ask Tywin stans, that if Tywin is someone to completely admire, that he is just saddled with a naughty family that is in no way a direct correlation to how horrible he is as a person: then why did George kill him on the shitter? Wins the argument, every time.
@@jessjess23brooks89 The last words of the story describing his death were "In the end, Tywin Lannister did not shit gold." It's a double meaning. It does not only mean that the legends about him are false, it means that no, he does not produce anything great. He does not have the Midas touch. It's not true that his shit doesn't stink. The futility of his dreams of a legacy and a Lannister royal dynasty are symbolically demonstrated in two incidents in the books before & after his death. The first is in the ceremony celebrating his victory over Stannis, where his horse takes a shit. The whole ceremony is set up to glorify Tywin, rather than the king for whom this was all supposed to supporting (so much for Tywin trying to build up his family - he sacrifices a chance to bolster his grandson's public image in order to be the star). Rather than approach the throne as a subject or petitioner, he rides in on horseback, in full armor sending the message that he is above he law and the king. Rather than kneel before the throne, he has Joffrey come down from his seat to Tywin. But he has to step gingerly around the pile of shit Tywin's horse left in front of the throne. *In order to embrace Tywin, you have to walk through horseshit* is the symbolic message. The other incident is his funeral, where his body is decomposing and stinking up the place at a rapid rate. When Tommen approaches, the stench makes him retch violently, so that his crown falls off. Again, we have a symbolic message, in this case, *The stink of Tywin's leadership causes his grandson to lose the crown* foreshadowing the downfall of the Lannisters in the books to come, when Jaime runs afoul of Lady Stoneheart and Cersei loses the rule to Aegon VI. Martin hits the reader over the head, time and time again with the message that Tywin is full of shit.
@@Gunleaver Most people use the "death of the author" method of reading these books. How GRRM interprets his work is not the same as how the audience does
@@stephenjenkins7971 Death of the author works for interpretations, not facts. Martin can say Tywin is evil and we can dispute that based on the actions Martin has written. But we cannot deny the actions he took, death of the author has nothing to do with that. Tywin is a raging egomaniac, who sucks the joy out of life, abuses all three of his children and is a war criminal and rapist, who destroys the realm he seeks to rule, undermines his own family and their position to bolster his own preferred image of personal supremacy, and spends the series surviving through lucky breaks he did nothing to bring about, while getting thoroughly outplayed in both the military and political spheres of conflict. When he dies, his family has no friends or true allies, has been reduced to dependency on the Tyrells, and is reviled throughout the land, while the few members of his house who still regard his memory with a degree of respect are under the gun of Varys' plots, just waiting for him to pull the trigger and end their pretentions for good. You can't 'death of the author' all those facts away and pretend he's a badass.
Tywin simply understood that in order to be a house feared and in power you had to play the game right. It's actually pretty interesting that his 3 children embodied all of his qualities. Cersei inherited his ability to be cruel and political, Jaime inherited his charisma and strength, and Tyrion inherited his ability to form alliances through working with others to give them what they want. He probably didn't realize it, but his children did learn from him. His downfall was the fact that he just could not see through his own pride and disdain for Tyrion. Which ultimately lead to his death
Tywin not being able to realize that Tyrion was the only child that learned the most from him was definitely his downfall. He even hates it when others point it out to him (e.g. when Genna Lannister - his sister - pointed out that Tyrion was his true son and not Jaime). I think that a part of that is the fact that Tywin sees a lot of himself in Tyrion - a lot of himself that he doesn't like, to be more specific.
Tyrion did not manage to take out even a single enemy in King's Landing, which was actually his task. His job there was to figure out who was behind Ned's execution, instead he played hero and only undermined Cersei for no real reason. Tywin should have left him cleaning the sewers.
@@atlash6387 No, his assignment was to rule. He was supposed to assess the councilors and execute any if he could find that they were double-crossing the Lannisters. And while he kind of blew that, imprisoning the only one of the three who was a die-hard Lannister (and specifically Tywin) loyalist, and leaving the two actively plotting against them in place, Tywin did no better leaving them in place to effect his own death, and ignoring Tyrion's suspicions about Littlefinger. Tywin sent Tyrion to not so much undermine, as overrule Cersei, for EXCELLENT reasons, because she is grossly incompetent. It's Cersei who undermines Tyrion, out of her paranoia about the fortune teller's prophecy.
Except it doesn't work for the Lannisters. For any credible enemy, fear does not stop them. Ned was never afraid of Cersei, her spiteful efforts to punish his children and execute a wolf only inspired resentment and contempt, not fear. In fact, Tywin's terrorism is counter-productive. When Robb is setting out against him, Catelyn warns him that because of Tywin's history of brutality, this is a winning-is-the-only-option scenario for the Starks. In other words, where they might go into a fight against another opponent simply looking for bargaining position or making a statement, with the Lannisters, they have to go all out, that they cannot afford to deal with Tywin from any position other than strength. Later, when Jaime is trying to effect the surrender of Riverrun, he cannot offer any acceptable terms, because of his father's history of treachery & brutality (his own history of oathbreaking and refusing to explain himself does not help). Tywin also does not "form alliances through working with others to give them what they want." The only alliances he makes force him to grossly overpay people who are unreliable and in the case of the Tyrells, actively plotting against the Lannisters. Because Tywin does not give others what they want, unless he has no choice, and everyone knows it. "Lannisters lie" is an aphorism in the realm, and "a Lannister always pays his debts" is an entirely cynical acknowledgement that they do so only by technicalities, while claiming their brutality is deserved. With the Tyrells, Tywin is forced to share the spotlight on his triumphal display, he has to concede four spots on the Small Council to Mace Tyrell and his family and bannermen (one, directly at the expense of a Lannister), he cannot make a marriage alliance with a rival house without getting Mace's approval, and has to put his own son on trial for murder on the random accusations of a hysterical woman, because Mace is pressuring him. When the Tyrells plan to marry an heiress who is in Lannister custody, the only way Tywin can forestall it is by pretending ignorance and marrying her off as a fait accompli. He literally cannot tell the Tyrells "no". When they spurn his marriage offer, he not only has to accept it, despite the full knowledge of the deliberate and calculated-to-reach-his-ears insults toward his only daughter in their internal discussions, and pretend the offer was never made to protect his pride. This is not an alliance, this is being Mace's bitch. And in large part, it is necessary, because Tywin's own military failures have left them desperate for the Tyrells' troops. In aSoS & aFfC, the Tyrells are pacifying the eastern Riverlands, rooting Stannis's followers out of the Reach, and besieging Stannis' two main castles of Dragonstone & Storm's End. The only Lannister forces in the field are at the siege of Riverrun and (barely) occupying Harrenhal. Jaime needs to turn to a flipped Stormlands knight to properly garrison the latter, and for the former, they need the help of the incompetent Freys and a number of unwilling riverland lords whom they suspect of turning a blind eye to anti-Lannister guerilla fighters, if not actually aiding & sheltering them. They are also relying on the Freys to pacify the northern Riverlands and to support the Boltons in the North. The one Lannister holding in their seized territory that they did not have to give to the Freys, Reachermen or Littlefinger, Castle Darry, is garrisoned more by Frey troops than Lannister men (and what there are of the latter, I would bet are more from Kevan's private resources than the levies or retainers of Casterly Rock). Tywin was losing a war to a teenager fighting in his first conflict, and even lost a battle to Edmure Tully. Tywin was marching to face Robb, despite the obvious fact that Robb couldn't actually take his castle or city, in response to pressure from, or fear of the response of, his bannermen, whose lands and castles WERE being threatened by Robb's large-scale raid. Tywin's position at Harrenhal had strategic advantages, which Tyrion explained to Cersei, but he abandoned it, to head to the opposite side of the continent, leaving the capital city and his grandchildren & access to the throne exposed, with powerful enemies in the field. This march west was not remotely to Tywin's advantage, it was a necessity he had to undertake to service the interests of his followers, because at that moment, they were more afraid of what Robb would do to their homes, family and property, than they were of Tywin's anger. Fear does not stop the Starks and Tullys from standing up to the Lannisters, even when they shouldn't (in the case of Edmure's defeat of Tywin). It does not deter Beric, Thoros & the Brotherhood (in fact, Tywin's fear-generating methods only inspire and grow their resistance movement, creating friends and supporters across the region). It does not stop the Tyrells from demanding the moon from Tywin, the Freys from extracting marriages and castles as the price of their aid, or Varys or Littlefinger for running their own game under Tywin's eye, while making snarky double-meaning comments hinting at their true agendas. It does not stop Roose Bolton from telling Jaime "LOL, your dad can't get me in the North." And all that fear evaporates the moment Tywin shows weakness or dies. But people are rallying to Ned's children, who are not exactly in a position to benefit them, out of love for their father and respect for the family's way of ruling. The whole POINT of Tywin's characterization in comparison to Ned's, is that Ned's lasts longer and works better, no matter what short-term advantages Tywin's methods seem to hold.
I think Tywin’s father confused love for respect while Tywin confused fear for respect. Tywin’s father wanted to be loved by his people. He gave them whatever they wanted and never got angry, but, as a result, he never earned their respect. Tywin has done everything he can to make people fear him. He responds to any insult with an excessive amount of brutality. When some houses refused to pay him back, he massacred them all. When Catelyn captured Tyrion, he sent the Mountain to burn and pillage the river lands. He threatens people to get what he wants by sending “potential allies” a singer to perform The Rains of Castermere. I don’t think he ever earned true respect because everyone is constantly plotting to overthrow the Lannisters. They show no respect for his name or his legacy by planning to tear it all down. Ned was someone who earned people’s respect. Even after his death, his legacy is respected. The north went to war for him. Even after they’re defeated, the Manderly’s go out of their way to put Rickon back in Winterfell. The Northern men despise Ramsay for hurting “Ned Stark’s little girl.” Nothing like this happens for Tywin. People acknowledge that he is smart and effective. Many fear him, but nobody respects him because his actions have hurt everyone in some way, shape, or form. His power came from his willingness to act as brutally as possible. As a result, he left his family with a kingdom full of people who want revenge.
I don't think he massacred entire families because they refused to pay him back. In the books, he only demanded that they send hostages until they did. He massacred families only when they rebelled or had been successfully rebelled against.
Its important to understand that Tywin cared about family in the context of Lineage. He did not care about the individual, but the Lineage they were apart of and will leave behind. He cared about Family like a CEO cares about their company.
Tywin is definitely a legend, he left a great Legacy💯 You've captured his character traits flawlessly, painting a vivid portrait of Tywin Lannister's complexities with finesse. 💝
Tywin also likely knew that Joffrey was gonna get assassinated eventually and let it happen. Then again, that wasn't a matter of if, only who and when.
He worded to Joffrey indirectly often enough, knowing Joffrey had the makings of a new Aerys, and tried to mitigate any damage the boy king made. I also feel that eventually, Tywin would have had him assassinated if he couldn't stop being Aerys 2.0.
The whole hypocrisy of tywin loving his family but destroying it with how cruel and uncaring he is ,is missing from here.This is not a character study but in a way a political video. Family for tywin isnt his actual family but the idea of a great dynasty thats why he plays the game of thrones a game that both causes suffering to the people of westeros and his family.All for the glory and greatness of the family name which at the end means nothing.His own son killed him his children were so emontionally neglected that ended up in a relationship, thousands dead people dead because of him wanting to place the name and emblem of his dynasty to the throne.Not so different than actual modern day politicians
Agreed. Tywin is a badass, and that provides a very compelling power fantasy. But Tywin is a hypocritical villain, an insecure man beneath his commanding exterior. We often forget that the entire deal with ASOIAF is to present how petty and crude it's politics are, and Tywin is the apex of this. He only does what he does because of the shame he felt as a child, he overly identified with his house. He projects his own feelings of inadequacy onto his house, onto others. People miss this because Tywin is so commanding and badass, I feel, it's kind of like how people misinterpret American Psycho or Fight Club. We get lost in that masculine fantasy without realizing that those things are what's causing the very demise of modern civilization.
Yeah this is a pretty thin argument, Tywin is shown to be a failure and his family seems likely to disintegrate within years of his death. He's drastically overrated and only does as well before his death because of the squabbling between renly and stannis. It's noteworthy that this video uses a lot of show content, the show was clearly pro Tywin in its typically shallow approach to the setting.
Just about every "Great Player" of the so called game of thrones is outwardly a really clever schemer, but inside they're just vile, petty and insecure people; all badasses in their own right, true, but that's kind of the thing about badasses; they're bad, and asses who are often revered when they should be reviled. Not that I don't get why super good killers or super good manipulators are seen as awesome for their respective abilities, hell, many of my favorite characters are such horrid people. There's just something about such character that just seems to draw fans. Then again ASOIAF's cast are all immensely flawed human beings, so really its just a case of pick your poison.
Its funny to me how people are able to call king Jeahearys the greatest Targaryan king of all time and praise his achievements despite the fact that he too was a flawed father who lost multiple children because of this but when it comes time to praise and respect Tywins achievements they disregard it because he was a "He was a terrible father"or "he was a hypocrite"😂
I think the most compelling thing about Tywin is that, besides Tirion, he took every decision right to achieve his objectives. But his ruin was for what was lacking in his persona, he didn’t have any empathy for others, specially for his children, they were just pieces for his grand scheme. His cold heart nature was ultimately his downfall.
His objectives were vain & self-glorifying, and many of his methods were self-destructive. Tyrion lays out the smart response to his capture, how appealing to the king will vindicate the Lannisters, because the Stark targeted the wrong sobling, and embarass the Starks and undermine their position against the Lannisters. This could also be a step to Tywin replacing Ned as Hand. What Tyrion worries about is Jaime &/or Cersei actingly rashly or out of ego, and starting a fight. But that's what Tywin does, attacking the Riverlands in defiance of Robert's order to end the conflict. Then, he attacks the emissaries Ned sends in Robert's name, which is a huge provocation demanding retribution. If Robert survives his hunting trip and learns what Tywin has done, that's the end for House Lannister. Tywin goes to war against the Tullys when they are allied by marriage to two other Great Houses, both of whom are very close to the King. That's an insane correlation of forces against him, and he was purely lucky that things went so well for him, between Robert's death basically neutralizing House Baratheon in the fight, Petyr secretly making Lysa keep the Arryn forces out, and Edmure bungling the initial troop dispositions. Tywin made horrible moves and was heavily dependent on the the Tyrells after his losses in the war depleted his own forces, to the point that has he lived, even if no more crises arose, he'd have ended up being edged out of his grandson's government.
"Did you love him?" Jaime heard himself ask. His aunt looked at him strangely. "I was seven when Walder Frey persuaded my lord father to give my hand to Emm. His second son, not even his heir. Father was himself a thirdborn son, and younger children crave the approval of their elders. Frey sensed that weakness in him, and Father agreed for no better reason than to please him. My betrothal was announced at a feast with half the west in attendance. Ellyn Tarbeck laughed and the Red Lion went angry from the hall. The rest sat on their tongues. Only Tywin dared speak against the match. A boy of ten. Father turned as white as mare's milk, and Walder Frey was quivering." She smiled. "How could I not love him, after that? That is not to say that I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man that he became ... but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little." She gave a sigh. "Who Will protect us now?"
What sound alliances did Tywin make? The Tyrells, who are looting the kingdom and murdered Joffrey, while taking advantage of Tommen's youth to influence him? The Boltons, who told Jaime "LOL, Tywin doesn't scare us", whom he was plotting to betray from the outset? The Freys, who are inspiring hatred & defiance in the Riverlands and North, and likewise, are claiming a wealth of castles and marriages from the Lannisters? The Martells, who took his granddaughter, while plotting to restore the Targaryens and leave Tywin in ruins, whose pretense of alliance did not stop them from interfering in Tyrion's trial? The only allies who are not costing the Lannisters more than they are worth are their bannermen, who were not made allies by Tywin's diplomacy, but by inheritance and an accident of geography.
What exactly is Amory Lorch worth? Gregor Clegane has value but Tywin would rather let him indulge all of his sick vices rather than do anything helpful. I suppose Gregor and Amory can't solely share the blame for making nearly all of the Riverlords and the Martells hate the Lannisters since Tywin ordered them to commit their numerous atrocities in the first place. Pycelle, Forley Prester, Addam Marbrand, and Kevan are the only Lannister supporters I can think of that are doing more than just perfunctory service and aren't actively harming their cause, and Kevan is a Lannister.
@@venus2677 I think Davos & Lorch are played off as examples of the best & worst ideal of a loyal landed knight. Lorch does all his lord's dirty work, and is a force of pure destruction and ruin, incapable of doing anything positive or building, and he is left to hold a ruined castle with his archrival, betrayed and murdered. While Davos is valued for his honesty, morality and loyalty, and is loyal to his lord by helping Stannis be better, and checking Stannis when he falters. Even their sigils show their natures - Lorch is a manticore, a venomous creature kept in a box and let out to murder, while Davos' is a ship that brought life-saving supplies to a besieged fortress. Just as Brienne & the Hound are counterexamples for knights who fail to live up to their vows, Davos represents true loyalty and fealty from knight to lord, even though the same lords who turn up their nose at treating him as a peer, would graciously accept Lorch in their company. IDK about Prester, either. He hasn't exactly shone. All he did was retreat from a battlefield when he saw his fellow commanders getting trounced. There was a river between him & the foe, so it's not like he was really in danger, either, and he was there as a participant in a manifestly unjust war, being carried out with barbaric means. Jaime hypes him up in his head, because he is beginning to get a sense that his cause and his faction is shit and maybe doomed, and I'm pretty sure early in the next book we are going to see a massacre of Prester's force by the Brotherhood under Lady Stoneheart, come to free her brother & avenge herself on the Spicers. Pycelle is utterly incompetent & cowardly. Varys says that he loves his office more than the loyalty the office is supposed to hold, and I think that's true for the Lannisters, too. He won't take any real risks to help them, and hands over the crucial evidence to Ned, as well as giving him a fairly accurate report of everything about Jon Arryn's last days, except his cause of death. He might root for Tywin and whisper secrets to the Lannisters but he won't bestir himself to do the right thing, even for his own team when needed. He doesn't try to right the ship until Cersei is locked away, and for all we know, he merely went along with Harys Swyft who called his son-in-law Kevan back to court. Basically, he backs whoever is in power, and never tries to oppose them, even when necessary. He'll give advice, but no more than that. And Kevan ... he's Tywin's right hand in all ways not just the good ones. Tywin orders massacres, and Kevan carries them out. Tywin plans to do awful things to people, and Kevan is his sounding board. Kevan goes out and says the things in councils that Tywin doesn't want to, either because people will push back, and Tywin doesn't want to be seen as stooping to argue, or because he doesn''t know how the idea will be accepted or if it's dumb, and so Kevan takes the flak. Like Lorch & Pyelle, he's an enabler of one of the worst men and worst causes in Westeros, and it seems he does it out of vanity and greed. Where Tywin's other siblings pushed back, even if only for their own egos, Kevan abased himself so as to get the rewards and to assuage his vanity over the Lannisters being feared instead of laughed at. Where I think that Tywin was so deep in denial that he could not accept the truth of the Twincest even if he caught them making out, Kevan knew the score and went along with making Joffrey king.
@@Gunleaver I think your assessment of Lorch is spot on. Well said. Forley Prester shines in comparison to Jaime and Stafford. Tywin clearly appointed both as leaders of his hosts because of their name despite their lack of capability within the role. Forley does what he can to recover from their blunders. I'm not comparing him to Randyll Tarly or Robb, since he hasn't been put in a similar position to them. I debated including Pycelle. His most notable actions tip the scales for the Lannisters, but I don't think it's out of loyalty, but for self-preservation. Even convincing Aerys to open the gates to Tywin falls within that idea. Aerys was going to torch the entire city Pycelle included. Pycelle does try to influence events but has an aversion to risk that keeps him from reaching the level of Petyr or Varys. Him giving that book to Ned is an example, as well as him informing Cersei of Tyrion's plan to betroth Myrcella to Dorne, which is probably the riskiest thing he does in the books. Ultimately he fails to stop Tyrion from weakening the Lannisters by making Myrcella a hostage and potential rival claimant, but you can't say that he didn't stick his neck out. What massacres did Kevan carry out? He relays orders from Tywin to his dogs, but he doesn't join them in carrying it out. He clearly has an aversion to the unsavory sellswords that Tywin hired, but is too cowed by Tywin to directly criticize that, or any other of his, decisions. Kevan's actions after Tywin dies and Cersei is arrested shows that he's more capable than "never having a thought Tywin didn't have first" as Tyrion puts it. I'm not sure when he learns of Cersei and Jaime's relationship, but he keeps it a secret, at least in part, to keep them and their innocent children, Tommen and Myrcella, from being killed. Kevan is a dutiful man that lived under an immoral blowhard.
@@venus2677 Relaying the orders is complicity. He is at Tywin's side at all his war crimes. When, before Tywin's death, are they ever said to not be in the same place? For that matter, where do we get any indication of his decency? His revulsion toward the sell-swords is just the basic snobbery of his class. Tywin has it too, he's just too proud to ever let anyone see his distaste for them. Kevan admits it when Tyrion notes he loves Tywin and he says nothing about any personal qualities or their relationship to justify his affection, instead, he cites Tywin's accomplishments which are a euphemism for his first atrocities. Kevan loves Tywin BECAUSE Tywin murdered innocent family members of his enemies, because he marched the woman their father took as a concubine naked through the streets, and because of the war crimes that gained them the illusion of victory in the current conflict. Kevan is a combination of Speer & Himmler to Tywin's Hitler.
I remember watching little finger and Varys doing their little schemes in GOT and the books. They always felt so fearsome and capable. Yet beneath this all, I knew they were merely boys playing their little games and that Tywin was the real player. His rise had evaluated the Lannister name so much so that in HOTD I automatically respected his ancestor. This is Tywin, a giant as big as a dragon.
Funny you say that since Littlefinger and Varys both manipulated him and his family quite easily. Hell, the only reason Tyrion was able to kill Tywin was because of Varys. The Lannister-Tyrell alliance is crumbling, and that's a lot worse for the Lannisters than the Tyrells, while Littlefinger seems to have consolidated his regency over the Vale and Stormlander castles are being swept over by the claimant Varys supports.
Hotpie No but to be honest the reason I say Tywin isn't the goat because of 2 reasons: 1, he only thinks for himself and his family, makes him a horrible and hypocritical father to tyrion, he's also just a straight asshole 90% of the time 2, he's unnecessarily cruel, what is with him hiring the worst men possible (the bloody mummers) you can blame Gregor for all of it but he was always behind Gregor and he let Gregor get away with everything. Overall, I just don't think of him as a good king. he's as good a leader as Stalin, Maegor, and Rhaenyra. Like Stannis but cruel and self entitled. So yeah Stannis the Mannis is the GOAT @@jjosifovic
@@MrMustache-yn4zma terrible father he was but I would argue some of his cruelty is warranted to instill fear of his house. Rhaenyra was a good leader? Definitely disagree on that but I can definitely agree with Stannis being the goat n he is in my top 5 game of throne characters of all time.
…we do? The man is the epitome of the evils of pride and comeuppance. I think Jaime is the one shortchanged by the show, because of how much he grows as a person AND gets smarter
Tywin is a really captivating character and a fan favourite. Only problem with him was the whole Tysha incident…I didn’t really see what could be gained from that
2 things: 1. To show the commoners that no mere commoner can take the Lannisters as a possible choice of spouse. He hated his father's commoner concubine commanding the Lannister soldiers and wearing their jewelry. 2. To break his son's will so that he can never act out against his father's will. He also hated Tyrion so he probably wanted to get him for petty reasons.
@@zizonesol i think he could’ve just done what he did to his father’s concubine. Didn’t need to have his guards and his son grape her…i like tywin but that just can’t be rationalised. I think that was his one act that was just really unnecessary
@@akwasiampofo5565 Like I said, he hated Tyrion and probably wanted to torture him without affecting him physically. And he can't hurt him physically because he's a Lannister and hurting a noble in those times is heavily frowned upon. Tywin is a man who likes to pursue a method that kills two birds with one stone without any regards to morality. By doing this, he made sure that the Lannisters are not to be even approachable by the commonfolks by spreading fear into their minds and that his son will learn a "lesson" not to disobey his father and at the same time, hurt him the worst way possible. BTW I'm not justifying his action. He is a despicable man who would torture, kill, and grape all the "lesser" beings if it means he will stand at the very top of the social hierarchy. He acts cold and not interested in sexual desires but in reality, he's just as shameful as his father and Tyrion.
He wasn't necessarily protecting his family, he was protecting the family name. He put both of his sons in harms way by sending them into war. He was protecting the family name, not the family.
He was feared and respected, but never loved. He also was a hypocrite and his actions left his house in disorder. It is why long after Ned Stark died, his people still remember him and fight in his name, while as soon as Tywin died, all his hard work began to fall apart.
This doesn't really touch much on content exclusive to the books or all the more interesting facets of Tywin's character. It kinda comes off as a fan compilation of achievements and growth trajectory for him, which is cool and all- but even in the show they hint at how insecure he is by having him refer like 3 different times to "how he will be remembered", talking about not "concerning himself with the opinions of the sheep" or his hypocrisy bedding Shae after chastising Tyrion his entire life for whoring. This last one gets him shot by his son in the shitter, probably after being poisoned. As said neat video but ultimately not much depth here for a character with a lot of layers.
Tywin was a terrible father, but it's very interesting. You see, Jaehaerys was also not a very good dad in Fire and Blood. In fact, an argument could be made that he was pretty awful. However, people can seperate his parenting skills with his accomplishments and acknowledge that he was a great king. Tywin was the same, in my opinion. At the end of the day, he was a great ruler, even though he never wore a crown like Jaehaerys. Now, that doesn't mean that he wasn't a hypocrite or a hard man. I acknowledge that in the video. Tywin DID indeed sleep with Shae, and he was too hard on Jaime by telling him to not worry about the "opinion of the sheep" (though he never said this in the book). In fact, it could be argued that Tywin's lack of warmth in parenting his children is the reason why Jaime and Cersei ended up having an incestuous relationship and why Tyrion is so f**ked up, sleeping with prostitutes and all. However, in his own weird way, Tywin was always just trying to provide the best for them. He made Cersei a queen and he tried his best to groom Jaime into a powerful lord that could take over from him one day. He even tries for his grandsons. Ultimately, he loved his family, even if he wasn't always the best in showing it - that cannot be denied.
The idea that Tywin united Dorne to the rest of the realm as had never been done before is a blatant falsehood. Daeron did not struggle to keep peace between Dorne and the Great Houses, he struggled to keep his throne against the Blackfyre rebels (whose support was drawn, admittedly, in large part, from the anti-Dornish lords). Dorne was a very cooperative constituent part of the realm ever since Daeron took the throne and brought them under his reign. The Martells & Dornish were present at the Targaryen court throughout the subsequent years, with Queen Myriah, Queen Dyanna, Michael Manwoody, Doran, Elia & Oberyn's mother, Lewyn Martell & Arthur Dayne in the Kingsguard, Elia's marriage to Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne in her company, and during Robert's reign, the master-at-arms was Aron Santagar. The Dornish fought beside the Targaryens in the last two major civil wars of their dynasty, the Blackfyre Rebellion and Robert's Rebellion. Tywin is the single individual, and his actions against Rhaegar's family the event, most responsible for the estrangement of Dorne from the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. They were doing great before Tywin massacred the sister of the Prince of Dorne and her children.
"Protecting his family" is not the only reason Tywin "is so cold and determined in his approach". He is cold because he is pathologically insecure and terrified of showing weakness, out of hatred for his father's amiability and submissive nature. He is similarly determined, because he cannot handle the idea of losing, or being weak or at the mercy of others. Tywin does not protect his family, he risks his family's survival and position on a gamble to buffer his pride. Tyrion lays out the situation when he is arrested by Catelyn. He says that the smart thing for the Lannisters to do would be to insist on his being tried by the king, for the Starks' accusations. He is confident that he can beat an honest prosecution and thinks that this will be to their gain, because it would discredit the Starks. What Tyrion fears is that his siblings are not smart enough to see this advantage, and will do something rash, out of pride. And instead of Jaime or Cersei, it was Tywin who acted rashly out of pride, by attacking the Tullys. Robert commands Tyrion be released and says that the fight between Ned & Jaime squares accounts, and he wants no more bloodshed. And then Tywin attacks the Tullys anyway. That, right there, is a crime against the peace of the realm, in direct defiance of Robert's orders. Then, when Ned sends men, under a royal command, flying the king's banner, Tywin attacks the party! Even if he had been completely innocent of the attack on the Tullys, and Gregor had, in truth, been acting alone, attacking Beric & Thoros on the business of the crown is tantamount to declaring war on Robert! If Robert comes back from his hunting trip without a mortal wound, Ned does not even need to use the twincest, he can keep silent to protect Tommen & Myrcella, and Robert is still going to war against the Lannisters to punish Tywin's rebellion and defiance. Tywin most likely goes down fighting, alone, without allies, and abandoned by his bannermen. Best case scenario, he realized the correlation of forces against him, and abjectly grovels for Robert's pardon. It would probably mean an agreement to cancel the crown's debts to Tywin, with massive fines, if the wealth of Casterly Rock is not confiscated outright, and Tywin and Jaime beheaded or going to the Wall, and Tommen named Lord of the Rock, with people hand-picked by Robert & Ned to rule the West in his name. And that's assuming Cersei and her kids retain their status, instead of being disgraced and disinherited with the grandfather whose sigil they wear in equal prominence to Robert's. Cersei & Myrcella could very well find themselves consigned to the Silent Sisters and Joffrey & Tommen sent to the Citadel or the Wall or the Faith, to remove them all from the line of succession, as Renly & the Tyrells push Margaery as a replacement for the seed of a traitor. Tywin's miscalculations endangered his family. His actions during the Rebellion had the Starks believing the worst of his family and primed to accept Littlefinger's lie and arrest Tyrion when the opportunity arose, after refusing him the hospitality of Winterfell. His behavior had the Lords of the Vale ready to also believe the worst and not object to Lysa's treatment of the Imp. She certainly had no fear of turning him loose to be killed by the mountain clans. Tywin's arrogance and provocation of Aerys led to his son being taken hostage and permanently estranged as his heir and endangered at court as the Targaryen regime collapsed. His massacre of the royal family engendered the hostility of the Martells and started them plotting to destroy Tywin & all he holds dear. His greed and ambition bound Cersei to an abusive husband. And that's not even counting the brother-in-law/cousin whom Tywin was ready to see murdered as a hostage by the Tarbecks and and who is slain at the Battle of Oxcross in a war Tywin started and let a teenager gain the upperhand over him. Jaime and several of Tywin's nephews are made captive in that war, by that same teenager's victories as well. EVERY danger that Tywin's family suffers during the series can be traced to Tywin and his behavior.
Tywin's lecture about "family first" shown around 14:05 is a show-only speech, because Book Tywin is incapable of giving it. Tywin does not put his family first. There is not one selfish desire you can cite Tywin sacrificing for his family, instead, he forces them into roles, regardless of their happiness, suitability to safety, for his own aggrandizement, power and glory. He risked his family in making an enemy of Aerys, and challenging the Baratheons. He forced Cersei to marry an abusive drunk, intended to make her marry off a list that included a younger man with whom she had nothing in common, a much older brutal warlord whose culture treats women even worse than Westeros, or a bisexual with an open mistress and a family of bastards who hated the Lannisters, he wanted to force Jaime to marry a teenager who was the widow of his own "nephew", forced Tyrion to marry a barely pubescent girl in a situation that called to mind Tyrion's traumatic sexual assault at Tywin's own hands, when he himself married solely for love. Tywin married not to secure any alliances, or make his family more secure or to gain more wealth or lands for them. His bride was a Lannister cousin, who served no purpose other than to accommodate his egotistical belief that only the elite and super Lannister blood was good to mingle with his own. Tywin had Tyrion & his wife gang-raped, he took up with Tyrion's prostitute concubine while Tyrion was in prison and is the prime candidate to have built the secret tunnel into Chataya's brothel while he was Hand of the King. By the account of the sister who appears to have loved him more than his own children, he was a crappy brother to all their brothers but Kevan, who utterly sublimated himself to Tywin in all things, doing his bidding slavishly and serving as his mouthpiece in council, giving people the bad news and floating unpleasant or risky proposals so Tywin does not look bad. Kevan is devoted to Tywin out of sunk cost fallacy, because he's come so far, and committed so many crimes for Tywin that he has to believe it was for a good purpose and a worthy leader, and Gemma's affection derives from her sharing in his Lannister supremacy and appreciating that he publicly denounced her husband as not good enough for her. When Stannis has been defeated, the Joffrey is the sole remaining claimant to the Iron Throne, there is a reception at court to receive the fealty of the defeated and reward the victors. What should be a whole presentation planned and staged to glorify Joffrey and make a strong public impression of his authority & kingship, instead is all about Tywin. Rather than approach as a subject or vassal, on foot, and subordinate to the throne, Tywin rides in on a warhorse, clad in armor. He approaches his grandson's throne as a conqueror. Joffrey comes down from the throne to him, again, making Tywin the star, rather than the actual king who is the family's meal ticket. Because this is a book, created by a human being who is making a deliberate point, Tywin's horse takes a giant crap, that Joffrey has to step around in order to embrace him. In real life, this would be a random accident, but in a book, it can only mean that the author intends the reader to associate Tywin with shit, to make the point that embrace Tywin as the savior of your throne, means having to step over the shit he produces and causes to land in your path. We see this motif repeated with the often-referenced jokes about Tywin shitting gold, and his death on the toilet, with the final words of the chapter in which he dies referencing a stench of feces, and the phrase "Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold." This is GRRM telling us that he is NOT what his legend says, that he does not produce anything valuable, that he is and always was, full of shit. The symbolism continues at his funeral, where his corpse stinks so badly that the whole sept is practically unendurable, and nothing can cover the stench, until finally, Tywin's stink is so bad that *his grandson loses his crown,* again, foreshadowing to the readers that the Lannister dynasty is doomed by the foul results of Tywin's own actions. House Lannister is all about Tywin. You can only find Tywin-approved happiness by surrendering your will entire to his, and accepting unconditionally his view of the world and your place in it. He cares about his family only to the degree they reflect his own glory, and fit the narrow mold of his preconceptions of Lannister superiority. For all his chivalric inclinations, Jaime does not blindly serve Tywin's interests as he wishes, so he is unworthy. For all his intelligence and Tywin-like mentality, Tyrion is physically flawed and ugly, so he too is unworthy, and scorned and rebuked for the vices Tywin shares. For all her devotion to her family and her endurance of an abusive marriage has gained House Lannister a claim to the throne and numerous adherents at court, Cersei is a woman and only of interest to Tywin as a marital pawn and a babysitter for the grandchildren on whom his hopes for de facto rule of the Seven Kings lie.
If no one dares to move a finger against Tywin is because of his ruthlesness and cruelty, everybody in Kings Landing know that attacking Tywin Lannister is a bad idea. The terror that his single person transmits it is what makes him so powerful, yes he is a political mastermind and a bad general. However Charles Dances makes this character so incredible and charismatic that he owns the scenes he is in.
"Wanting to protect his family" Tyrion: you mean it? Tywin: L + Ration, Your wife got raped by me, your brother and my soldiers, you aint my son i just can't prove it yet, died by the trial AYO
You do realize that the Dornish were in fact still plotting to take revenge on House Lannister for the murder of Ellia Martell, whilst planning to marry the Prince's son to the Targaryen heir? So that argument for Tywin being an efficient leader is a bit hollow :P Good video, I like the whole style and presentation, I will keep watching all your stuff!
Tywin is just lucky and cruel, he lost all the battles against Robb and got defeated by Edmure he won the war despite his incompetence because little finger wanted them to win.
You lost me at _"incompetence"._ 😅 Tywin was definitely cruel and brutal, but he wasn't _"just lucky"_ or incompetent. Unlike Robb, Tywin has experience in warfare and battles, so he is definitely not incompetent. Remember that in the book, Robb actively tries to avoid Tywin's army, because he knows that Tywin's army is bigger, more battle-hardened and that Tywin himself is a more experienced commander than him. That's why he chooses to meet Jaime's army instead and opts to send Roose Bolton to distract Tywin's main army from reinforcing Jaime's. Now, when Roose Bolton meets Tywin's army in the field he loses. Tywin *smashes* Roose's army... but obviously Robb was counting on that. Robb is clever, but he was also young, bold and sometimes rash - so Tywin eventually figured out that he could use that to his advantage. He knew that the best thing to do, rather than to engage Robb in battle, was to just wait, be a bit patient, because Robb's rashness and boldness, though it might be great for winning quick battles, it will not play well in the long-term in terms of politics. He wanted to isolate Robb from his allies and wait for him to f*ck up his own alliances... which Robb did, exactly as Tywin expected him to. Robb's first mistake was to leave Roose Bolton alone and isolated in the east without anyone watching his moves and making sure that he remained loya (remember that the Boltons are one of House Stark's greatest enemies, so Robb shouldn't have been so naive). Also, Robb failed to avenge the death of Lord Karstark's sons and allowed for the Kingslayer to be released, and then he married a random girl from a minor Western House and broke his alliance with the Freys. As soon as Tywin learned all of this, Robb was already doomed. Tywin made a political alliance with the Boltons and the Freys and he secured a marriage alliance with the Tyrells to increase his armies. All the while he was also planning the Red Wedding to deal with Robb Stark quickly and cheaply without the need for another battle being fought. Tywin even made a secret alliance with Robb Stark's wife's mother, telling her to give her daughter moon tea and kill Robb Stark's baby in her womb (if there was one - Tywin, in the book, is not the type of man to take half measures). Tywin defeated Robb by politicking and being cleverer than him. He was definitely *not* incompetent. Therefore, was Tywin cruel, brutal and cunning - yes; but was he incompetent, lucky or stupid - absolutely not.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 If it wasn't for littlefinger bringing tyrell to lannister side tywin wold have lost. Even young and "rash" Robb was able to outsmart Tywin and would have successfully captured him if Tywin hadn't lost to edmure. So Tywin's incompetence saved his life,If tywin would have won against edmure he would have been trapped between Robbs cavalry and rivermen. This was Robb's plan which got ruined because of Edmure's unexpected competence and Tywin's incompetence.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 "Unlike Robb, Tywin has experience in warfare and battles, so he is definitely not incompetent." This is not a logical syllogism. The second clause does not follow from the first. In fact, highlighting Tywin's superior experience only highlights Robb's ability to defeat him. Robb is not afraid of fighting Tywin, he is seeking a means to accomplish his objective, rather than fighting for the sake of fighting. Your weasel-word framing of the strategic situation is trying to cover for the fact that Robb is just doing what any military theorist says is the best move - to attack the enemy at his point of weakness, rather than strength, and to seek the battles that will achieve your objectives. Robb is also going against the advice of older and more experienced men in making his plan. He is a true military prodigy, while Tywin never wins a battle without massive advantages in manpower or the advantage of surprise (via treachery, as opposed to superior tactics). Tywin also does not SMASH Roose's army, he wins the engagement, but Roose's army is still a force in being, and remains a threat that Tywin has to take into account in his planning. Furthermore, Roose's conduct of the battle is so bad that he is either throwing the fight, or else is an incredibly incompetent general, and either way, the victory, against a smaller force, with no significant cavalry, is hardly proof of Tywin's military acumen. "Robb's rashness and boldness, though it might be great for winning quick battles, it will not play well in the long-term in terms of politics" This is incredibly ignorant. In feudal politics, winning battles is great politics. And Robb IS beating Tywin politically. Tyrion explains the strategic reasoning behind Tywin's hunkering down in Harrenhal. Tywin's goal is holding the Iron Throne for his family, and his army is the closest force of any significance they have near the capital, so he needs to stay near to protect the critical asset for his goal. And in spite of this, Robb forces him to leave his position and march all the way to the West. Because he isn't just winning battles, he is rampaging through Tywin's domains, making a mockery of his position as Warden of the West, and threatening the holdings and property of Tywin's vassals. Tywin HAS to respond to Robb, or lose all his followers, and so he comes west, leaving Kings Landing wide open for the taking. Robb did not fuck up his alliances, they turned on him because they are treacherous and not particularly interested in doing their part. Robb never acts rashly, and what you call mistakes are only such in hindsight. Robb was not being naive with Roose. You are forgetting or ignoring the point that his goals at the outset was simply to relieve the Tullys and get his father & sisters back. The situation changed with Ned's execution and Robb's acclamation as king. Now he had to find a way to force Tywin to the peace table when Tywin has nothing to offer Robb that he can accept. Recalling Roose is not an option, they still need his army in position keeping Tywin from marching on Robb's lands. And there is not much harm Roose can do where Robb left him, it is Edmure who turns him loose near the front. Furthermore, are you seriously suggesting that Robb's big mistake was not keeping the man who stabs him to death closer? Robb did not fail to avenge the death of Rickard's sons. No one says this, no one blames or faults him for it. Rickard is being emotional and irrational. They were in a battle and died fighting. Jaime did not deserve death for killing them and Robb did not owe Rickard any recompense at the expense of his strategic goals. Rickard's complaint is as selfish as Catelyn's releasing him - both seek their personal goals related to their children, at the expense of a major asset of the kingdom. And Robb had nothing to do with Jaime's release, it was not a failure on his part in any way, and it had no effect on Robb's fate. Tywin was already plotting with Roose when Catelyn released Jaime. If he was never set free, the plan was for all the Tullys at the Red Wedding to be taken hostage, so Tywin's intention was probably to make a deal with whomever held Riverrun, to swap Edmure &/or Cat for Jaime. In any case, Tywin does not love any of his children, viewing them only as assets to further his own glory. The most important thing for Tywin's glory & prestige at that point was the elimination of Robb who had so badly showed him up, and if it cost him Jaime, so be it. What he mainly cares about where Jaime is concerned, is that he has a badass warrior son who makes him look awesome. This explains how easily he shuts Jaime out when Jaime stops playing along and makes it clear that he's a KG first. "Tywin made a political alliance with the Boltons and the Freys" The Boltons scorn Tywin and are using him for their own gain. They do not lift a finger to help the Lannisters with anything that does not directly benefit them and Roose (figuratively) laughs when Jaime threatens him with Lannister retribution. The Freys are treacherous, dishonest and structurally incompetent, incapable of acting as a unit. They are useless for anything but treachery, and now that the rest of Westeros is onto them, and they are figures of contempt, they will never get the chance for treachery again. Tywin has claimed as allies, two utterly unreliable families, and tainted his family with their crimes "and he secured a marriage alliance with the Tyrells to increase his armies." Tywin had nothing to do with that. Tyrion saw the opportunity & Littlefinger handled the negotiations, and Tywin simply signed on the dotted line of the deal that Baelish & Mace Tyrell agreed on, which in hindsight, was far more stupid than Robb leaving Roose in command, considering Petyr and the Tyrells were plotting to murder Tywin's king & grandson, and frame his son for the crime. And Tywin needed to increase his armies, because of all the losses he suffered in picking a strategically moronic fight against the alliance that brought down the Targaryens. "All the while he was also planning the Red Wedding " Bullshit. He was NOT planning the Red Wedding at this time, because none of the conditions existed, and he was blundering into Robb's trap, up until he got word that Kings Landing was in danger and the Tyrells were ready to help ... for a price, of course. "to deal with Robb Stark quickly and cheaply" LOL. How's that working out? The cost of the Red Wedding has been to give the Freys the lordship over Riverrun, an ancient and prestigious castle, when Tywin scorns them as lowborn parvenus, and two Lannister marriage, when he had previously held Walder's second son to be unworthy of a Lannister bride. Now he has to give his closest brother's eldest son & heir in marriage to the biggest slut in the Crossing, and incidentally making another Frey a lady of a castle, and his nephew Daven another Frey wife. He has to give the Boltons Wardenship & Lordship Paramount of the North, and legitimize Ramsey, and arrange prestigious marriages for three of Sybelle Spicer's children, and elevate the Spicer family to one of the most prestigious lordships in the West. These are the same Spicers who are two generations removed from being merchants, a class Tywin holds in contempt and for that reason, Sybelle's daughter was considered unworthy of Kevan's younger son. Plus, the Red Wedding has hardened the wills of his enemies, so that Jaime cannot effect the peaceful surrender of the Blackfish and Riverrun, and Lannister troops are being massacred without regard to the rules of war, while Lady Stoneheart is preparing to eradicate all the Lannisters remaining in the Riverlands. The Red Wedding was not cheap by any measure, rendering the brilliance of Tywin's plan rather in question. "without the need for another battle being fought." It's hilarious how you have to resort to double standards to hype Tywin. Earlier, Robb avoiding a fight with Tywin was proof of Tywin's awesomeness and supremacy. Now, suddenly, avoiding a battle is a sign of efficient planning. In fact, the reason is, as Tywin admits to Tyrion, that he could not defeat Robb in the field. Tywin is avoiding another battle with Robb, because he's afraid of the outcome. "Tywin defeated Robb by politicking and being cleverer than him." He was not more clever, he was outsmarted by Robb every time they clashed mentally. You don't outsmart someone when their disgruntled rivals extort a fortune from you to betray and murder them. Robb outsmarted Tywin on the Green Fork and again with his chevauchee in the westerlands, and he set up a trap that Tywin gives no sign of having figured out, while he was repeatedly charging Edmure Tully's lines in an effort to chase after Robb. No one out-thought Robb at the Red Wedding, they took advantage of the assumption that no one would be so stupid as to destroy the trust in customs ensuring safe conduct in warfare. When you break a custom like guest right, you are basically forfeiting all trust forever, and making people think they no longer have to play fair with you, and the result is that the next two books sees Freys being murdered all across the realm, while Lady Stoneheart prepares the really devastating strike on the Lannisters. Thinking Tywin won ANYTHING is like boasting about Germany's military brilliance in late 1941. The Lannisters are not going to fare any better going forward than the Nazi party did from '41 on, and Tywin is the one who set them up. "He was definitely not incompetent." That Tywin needed all this inside held to create a ruinously destructive situation suggests that, yes, he kind of is.
Somewhat glosses over what a total and abysmal failure Tywin is as a father - and as a person that says he wants to restore his family - but appears to only succeed in restoring himself. But other than that... Yes - he is a compelling character.
the thing about Tywin is that he far more brute than genius when it comes to politics a great administer but a poor leader outside of it and filled with the pomp and arrogance that makes targaryens humble look at the situation with the riverlands where a smarter more patient man would see no need to fight or wage war Catelyn had no evidence, she had taken the member of a paramount house their was nothing ned or cat could do to justify this act an better man would see justice was done and use this to defame the appearance of the stark house hold and take reparations from them for this Tywin on the other hand senses a threat to his wire thine ego and has to fight and wage war, kill and murder for his appearance and dynasty his first reaction is to throw a hissy fit instead of be politically savvy even look at his past and ideology power is where men think it is his defiance of his father and destruction of the reynes no matter how "justified" was wrong and without bases as he was not yet their lord yet he pushed them to rebel and squashed them for it, even him marching to war in defiance of the kings peace Tywin is the type to break laws habitually because he views himself as having all the power and now I can imagine why aerys hated him because he was on the money on Tywin and a lot of things
I mean a family doesn't accuse another family of attempting to assassinate thier child and forget about it after a trial those are seeds of war and like machiavelli said leaving it is just giving the enemy time to destroy you , Tywin wanted to send a message don't start shit with house lannister. Matterfact Ned himself sent Catelyn (who captured Tyrion on her way there) to ready every Northern lords army because he knew war was inevitable. If Tywin simple took his father's army's and destroyed the Reynes I would agree but no if the Reynes believed Tywin was not thier lord they should of ignored him instead they used it as an excuse to rebel against the Lannisters.
Fear is his weapon. But it is temporary. After his death the others are useless they surely gone into the old status. Targaryns ruled 300 years with fear. They have a weapon Dragons. Aftr the death of dragons civi lwar broke out at last collapsed the dynasty. Everyone feared and hated the mad king. So Tywins action to targaryns was not criticised very much and noone wanted an another targaryn rule.
what could happen if Tywin was alive when Daenerys invades Westeros in season 7? Tywin would have all the 7 kingdom behind his back. - The Tyrell because Margaery was the queen. - The Riverlords would follow him because the Freys become lord paramount of the trident. - The Vale would follow because of littlefinger was behind Lysa Arryn - The north because of the Bolton. Ramsay only betray he's father after Tywin death, and even if Ramsay kill Roose, Tywin wouls crush the rebelion with iron fist. - Storm end because of King Tommem Baratheon - Dorne was butthurt because of Oberyn death, but Tywin would negotiate with Oberyn old brother - Greyjoy would follow him. Tywin will face Daenerys in sea, when the dothraki cant fight, Westeros crew will only has to deal with the 3 dragons and the greyworm crew.
Cersei did not become queen by any skill or virtue of Tywin, but because Robert's fiancee was dead, and because the Lannisters were a Great House with a lot of wealth and power, none of which came from Tywin. It was the position of the Lannisters, and their bloodline, both of which were inherited by Tywin, and not his creation, that made her a candidate for a royal marriage. If Lyanna had not died, Tywin would have had to settle for marrying her to Stannis in order to get in good with the new regime. He was very much on the outside looking in when Robert took the throne, and felt the need to undertake extreme demonstrations of support in order to get a foot in the door. None of the royal marriage arrangements in the Baratheon dynasty are the result of negotiating skill on the part of the other side's family. Stannis' marriage to Selyse Florent was because her family were rivals to one of the most powerful Houses in Westeros, and the strongest & last supporter of the Mad King. The marriage was a warning to the Tyrells that if they did not play nice, the crown was ready and willing to back House Florent's claims to preeminence in the Reach. Sansa was selected as Joffrey's bride because she is one of two daughters of a Great House in close enough age to Joffrey, and because Robert is looking to replicate the ties between his family and the Starks that never came to pass with his own betrothal. Trystane Martell & Margaery Tyrell were betrothed Cersei's children because, again, they were the offspring of Great Houses, except at a time when the Lannisters were desperate for allies. So it's doubtful that Tywin had anything to do with the marriage, rather it was the choice of the crown, and Tywin felt constrained to take it. He certainly does not seem to have obtained any special favor or provision for himself or House Lannister as part of the marriage, with most of the Lannister appointments and favors coming later through Cersei's pressure on Robert. When it is up to Tywin to negotiate advantageous matches, he fails to get Rhaegar for Cersei, he blows his chance to make an alliance with Dorne, and alienates the Martells. His efforts to get in on the bloc of alliances forming among the Starks, Tullys and Baratheons founders when Jaime is taken out of the picture by Aerys (way to maintain control of your House, losing your heir and missing out on alliances, because of the machinations of a jealous 15 year old girl), because he's too proud or not skilled enough to come up with another match. The Tyrells reject his offer of Cersei for Willas, and he is trying to wriggle out of the Margaery-Tommen match with the vain hope that they will accept a disgraced crippled knight who is merely heir to Casterly Rock, over a reigning king, who has a better claim to the Rock as well. Meanwhile, the Freys whom he considered unworthy of a Lannister daughter, are able to claim the hand of Tywin's eldest & closest brother's eldest son (and the next strictly male-line heir to the Rock) for the castle bicycle of House Frey who is the widow of a hedge knight. The notion that Cersei's marriage to Robert owes anything to Tywin's skill at arranging marriages or his personal prestige is not supported by either his track record, or the marital history of the Baratheon dynasty.
Tywin's alliance with the Tyrells is hardly an example of him playing fair. It does not secure the longevity of his dynasty, any more than ANY marriage that would produce offspring would. The Tyrells MURDERED JOFFREY! Are you really this stupid? Tywin does not let them increase their power out of fairness, he does so because he has used up most of his fighting strength in his futile efforts to subdue the Riverlands. Nothing Tywin does with the Tyrells is out of fairness or respect for their position, it is desperation and the fact that he needs them, badly, because he's screwed up every other potential source of assistance. And it's worth point out, that the alliance was none of Tywin's doing and not even his idea. When Renly dies, Tyrion & the Council seize on the opportunity to offer Margaery the queenship she would have had if Renly had won, and Littlefinger does the actual negotiations. Tywin's only contribution is to sign on the dotted line when messengers reach him to let him know, and at that moment, Robb is plundering his territory, Stannis is approaching Kings Landing where his children don't have nearly enough troops to defend the city, his eldest son is a captive, and he himself has just lost a battle to Edmure Tully, leaving him cut off from his base of power. It does not take a genius or brilliant strategist or expert negotiator to, in Tywin's circumstance, say "Yes, sure, I totally agree. Fight Stannis with me and Margarey can marry Tommen, you can have all the seats on the Small Council you want, Loras can be a Kingsguard, Garlan can be a lord, please just bail my ass out of the fire, and let me pretend I'm the bigshot Hand and regent, please?" If the Tyrells balked at anything Tywin asked, they could sit back and let Stannis take the crown, and probably march Tywin in chains to Kings Landing to buy themselves forgiveness for besieging Storm's End and backing Renly.
I couldn't disagree more. Tywin acted to protect a legacy. To protect house Lannister. That's not protecting the family. He did everything he had to, to guarantee the legacy of his name and his house name, including sacrificing his family. He did what he could to kill one of his children. So, I don't think he did anything for his family.
Maybe if Jonna didn’t die he couldn’t of been a better man and the half the world wouldn’t hate his kids an Tyrion would of been love better all he had to do was treat Tyrion like a son Tyrion was everything that he wanted in a son but him being a dwarf fuck it all up he let his pride get in the way of loving his own blood
Tywin did not win the War of Five Kings through skill or leadership, but by raw dumb luck, and is only counted as the winner by randomly assigning an end date to the conflict that favors him. His reputation is also buffed by his conveniently-timed death, which helps separate him from the consequences of his actions coming due. He did NOT crush all of Joffrey's enemies in the field of battle. He eliminated Robb Stark through treachery and murder, for which he had to pay dearly, sullying his family bloodline with multiple marriages to Houses he considers unworthy, and granting castles and titles to low-born men he scorns as new money interlopers. He defeated the Tullys in his initial campaign, largely through ineptitude on the part of the opposition (and the last time he takes the field against them, he loses to that same commander) but does not eliminate them, and they keep fighting beyond his death. Their castle only changes hands, again, through a a threat to murder a child and military action by people other than the Lannisters, and is foreshadowed not to last long, since both Catelyn Tully & Brynden Tully are still at large and in the field. Tywin did defeat Stannis in a battle, with the advantage of surprise and overwhelming numbers, but again, he did not eliminate Stannis, who is gaining strength as the Lannisters falter. Finally, wouldn't the people who ACTUALLY MURDERED Joffrey be counted as one of Joffrey's enemies? Because Tywin did not eliminate them at all, rather he welcomed them into the regime, all but turning over the keys to the Red Keep, and is all but kissing their asses. He not only does not eliminate the Tyrells as a threat, they linger to plague his daughter and brother, and Tywin himself is forced to put his own son on trial for a murder the Tyrells committed and give Tyrion's council seat to a Tyrell. These same Tyrells are the ONLY great House Tywin ever forms an alliance with, and it's not so much an alliance as an opportunity for them to take over rule of the realm from the Lannisters. They are basically carrying out Tywin's dream, at his own expense. In fact, Tywin is notoriously short on major allies among the great Houses and his own conduct in large part is the cause of this. He blunders into a war against the Stark-Tully-Arryn-Baratheon alliance that took down the Targaryens, out of pride and arrogance, and got lucky that outside factors, over which Tywin had no influence or control or even knowledge until after the fact, tore apart the alliance before it could crush him. The alliance with the Tyrells is due to the efforts of the son he despises and the Council he sent Tyrion to ride herd on, and it's under Tywin's direct supervision that they begin edging out the Lannisters and looting the realm. The Martells and Starks are adamantly hostile to the Lannisters and Tywin personally, because of his actions during Robert's Rebellion. Under the rule of Robert Baratheon, Tywin's own son-in-law, and the Handship of Jon Arryn, Tywin is effectively an outsider in the regime, given no influence over the rule of the realm or great offices, being forced to work through his daughter and the minor functionaries she nags Robert into filling up the court with. He is suspiciously absent at court for a man whom the crown owes literally millions, and is the grandfather of the heir to the throne. All of which points at him being persona non grata, again, because of his bloody hands from the Rebellion and his daughter's utter failure to charm or make friends.
The funny thing is that although he ruled over the kingdom, he did not manage to rule over his own family and that is what brought him down at the end. His own kids were doing, being his back, whatever they wanted and undid almost all his plans. Only if he had payed more attention to what was happening under his nose and may be ruled his own home in a better way... what a failure.
It was not Tywin's cunning that led to the Red Wedding, it was the treachery of the Freys & Boltons. All Tywin did was accept an offer, in exchange for a lot of favors he had to pay out, and which has destroyed the Lannisters' reputation and linked them to the despised Freys & their crime. Brienne is nearly killed by Lady Stoneheart & the brotherhood for carrying a Lannister sword and must buy her life and those of her companions by offering up Jaime instead. Because of the Red Wedding, Jaime is unable to get the Blackfish to surrender, and the turnover of Riverrun, obtained by more threats of brutality as Jaime plays What Would Daddy Do, is clearly only foreshadowed to be temporary, as the Brotherhood gathers around the place, with a spy already emplaced in the household, and a Lannister-Frey wedding on the horizon providing an opportunity for a perfectly poetic reciprocal massacre. All the Red Wedding did was ensure the permanent hatred of the North and Riverlands for the Freys & Lannisters. Where once the northmen said that Stannis was nothing to them, the Red Wedding has the wealthiest House in the North, and the family of the man who made that statement all lining up for Team Stannis. The massacre might have made the riverlanders bend the knee, but the antipathy and enmity generated by the atrocity means that the Lannisters' subjects in the Riverlands don't work together, and Jaime's war council devolves into unproductive squabbling and infighting. The crime of the Red Wedding doomed the Freys, and Tywin's encouragement of the plot and lavish rewards to the Freys and Boltons force the Lannisters to rely on these two doomed Houses, because no one in either region will ever follow or support the Lannisters again.
You have the audacity to cite Tywin offering the Martells justice as proof of his leadership? Tywin is, first of all, not making the offer. Tyrion did, and Tywin isn't happy about it. He also plots to cheat them, refusing to turn over Gregor for punishment, and ultimately, he himself is the one responsible for what happened to Elia and her children. Tywin is aware of the principle of the responsibility of leadership as we see in his attempt to deflect the blame upward to Robert, but he is the one who sent his most brutal knights after the royal family. Lorch had been used to a similar mission at Tarbeck Hall. That Twin would send him after Rhaegar's children and not think to say "no rape or excessive violence" makes him utterly incompetent as a military commander and leader, and even as a politician, considering he never seems to think or care what effect this would have on the Martells. Gregor's reputation for violence in the household is known even to Ned, in the remote north. That Tywin has NO CLUE about his violent tendencies is not very credible. Oberyn believes, and the text gives the reader no reason to doubt him, that Tywin deliberately targeted Elia to punish the Martells for marrying Rhaegar after he told them that it was his intention to marry Rhaegar to Cersei. Any effort on Tywin's behalf to give the Martells justice for her death is a farce and a lie.
Show some proof that Tywin's vassals respect him, as opposed to obeying him because he is their liege lord, or out of fear. Don't give me a quote from Olenna Tyrell, who is not a vassal of Tywin, and which exists only in the show, meaning it comes entirely from the brain trust that had Dany kind of forget about the Iron Fleet. Where is the confidence in the Lion of the Rock in the war council after Robb has outmaneuvered Tywin, relieved Riverrun, captured Jaime and now sits astride their supply lines, while two Baratheon brothers with more troops than Cersei has at court aim at the Iron Throne? Where is the sense that Tywin can find a way out of this? When Kevan's father-in-law wails that the situation is a catastrophe, no one argues with him, he just gets a sarcastic thanks "for pointing out the obvious." We are very carefully not shown any perspectives or opinions of westermen in the later books of the series. We have no proof that their respect has withstood four major battles lost to Stark & Tully forces, Robb marching an army through Tywin's domain unopposed and plundering their lands and taking their castles, the near-fall of Kings Landing to Stannis, and the lords of the Reach getting lands, castles, tax breaks, wardships, and Council seats, while Tywin's vassals are conspicuously absent from the meeting where the spoils are divided. Stannis tells Jon that kings must be open-handed with their followers, as if reciting a commonly-known fact, but what generosity to the men fighting for Tywin get? Sybelle Spicer requires Lannister aid marrying off her daughters, a Lannister bride for her son, pardons for her whole family and a lordship & castle for her brother to go along with preventing Robb from having kids, and meantime, she has herself in a situation where she can jump ship to the Starks without anyone knowing she was in cahoots with Tywin. There is no defiance when Robb takes the castle, no staunch loyalty to her liege lord Tywin, instead she just uses the situation to extort extravagant rewards from the family that scorns her as the daughter of a merchant, while taking virtually no risks, because if Tywin goes down, she can just stop the birth control and let her daughter bear Robb's heirs. The only western family to markedly improve their fortunes over the course of the series is the one managed to get a huge negotiating advantage over Tywin. Assuming the Westerlings and Spicers are not massacred by Brotherhood & Tully loyalists rescuing Edmure, their fellow western lords are going to be pretty damned resentful of an up-jumped merchant's son being granted one of the most prestigious titles in their country, while all the rest of the rewards go to Tywin's siblings, cousins and their children. Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane carried water for Tywin since Tarbeck Hall and the Rebellion, respectively, and they were left guarding a ruined, cursed castle, and both died screaming. I would not be surprised if at some point in a future book, Cersei or someone calls for the lords of the West to come to the aid of House Lannister, and the response is "LoL, nope."
I think this misses the point of his character. Tywin is a failure in the books, he's lucky in a number of instances and his children tear each other apart. You gloss over the fact that the 'strong' alliance he achieves with the Tyrells immediately leads to his grandson being poisoned. In his own lifetime his schemes were cracking apart and obviously this culminates in his betrayal and murder at the hand of two of his children.
Tywin really is one of the most compelling and well-written villains in fiction.
He is.
Villain? I wouldn't say hes a villain at all
@@tereza1959with ASOIAF it is always verry hard to class characters into the common tropes. However Tywin does still learn towards the villainous side as he is a tyrant (in politics and concerning his children), takes away glory from people like Kevan and Tyrion, knows neither decency nor mercy and rules only through fear. That doesn‘t mean however that his motives are evil nor reasonable.
If you like Tywin's character, you may want to look into Londo Mollari from Babylon5.
Tywin is rather an anatagonist than a villain.
Stannis: (paraphrasing) The first time I saw the Iron Throne I was so little Robert had to hold my hand I was so nervous. But we both agreed the King had been as gracious as the dragons were fearsome. It was only later that I learned that Ayres had cut his had before, it was Tywin Lannister who had charmed us such."
I always loved that memory from Stannis. There's something powerful about it, something telling about the kind of aura Tywin exuded.
“I remember the first time my father took me to court, Robert had to hold my hand. I could not have been older than four, which would have made him five or six. We agreed afterward that the king had been as noble as the dragons were fearsome." Stannis snorted. "Years later, our father told us that Aerys had cut himself on the throne that morning, so his Hand had taken his place. It was Tywin Lannister who'd so impressed us."
@@333sss-yt which book is this from? I don’t remember it
@@MvenvenA Storm of Swords I believe.
The mannis only speaks in facts so for his grace to say this goes to show what a boss Tywin is.
By far one of the most frustrating things about analizing Tywin is that we don't have any POV chapters with him. It leaves him way more open to the reader's interpretation.
Tywin's hypocrisy is one of my favorite aspects of his character, particularly in how his entire motivation revolves around never wanting his house to experience the shame his father left on his house. As much as he tries to spin it, as much as he tries to frame it as a fact, Tywin is a very, very insecure man who wants his pride validated by the twisted schemes and horrific orders he commands. He is amazingly well written, and it's easy to ignore this true depth because of the power fantasy he presents. Tywin is ambitious, cunning, intellectual, practical and powerful, but there is nobody who indulges in this power fantasy more than Tywin himself.
Thank you!!! Exactly.
I always ask Tywin stans, that if Tywin is someone to completely admire, that he is just saddled with a naughty family that is in no way a direct correlation to how horrible he is as a person: then why did George kill him on the shitter?
Wins the argument, every time.
@@jessjess23brooks89 The last words of the story describing his death were "In the end, Tywin Lannister did not shit gold." It's a double meaning. It does not only mean that the legends about him are false, it means that no, he does not produce anything great. He does not have the Midas touch. It's not true that his shit doesn't stink.
The futility of his dreams of a legacy and a Lannister royal dynasty are symbolically demonstrated in two incidents in the books before & after his death. The first is in the ceremony celebrating his victory over Stannis, where his horse takes a shit. The whole ceremony is set up to glorify Tywin, rather than the king for whom this was all supposed to supporting (so much for Tywin trying to build up his family - he sacrifices a chance to bolster his grandson's public image in order to be the star). Rather than approach the throne as a subject or petitioner, he rides in on horseback, in full armor sending the message that he is above he law and the king. Rather than kneel before the throne, he has Joffrey come down from his seat to Tywin. But he has to step gingerly around the pile of shit Tywin's horse left in front of the throne. *In order to embrace Tywin, you have to walk through horseshit* is the symbolic message.
The other incident is his funeral, where his body is decomposing and stinking up the place at a rapid rate. When Tommen approaches, the stench makes him retch violently, so that his crown falls off. Again, we have a symbolic message, in this case, *The stink of Tywin's leadership causes his grandson to lose the crown* foreshadowing the downfall of the Lannisters in the books to come, when Jaime runs afoul of Lady Stoneheart and Cersei loses the rule to Aegon VI.
Martin hits the reader over the head, time and time again with the message that Tywin is full of shit.
@@Gunleaver Most people use the "death of the author" method of reading these books. How GRRM interprets his work is not the same as how the audience does
@@stephenjenkins7971 Death of the author works for interpretations, not facts. Martin can say Tywin is evil and we can dispute that based on the actions Martin has written. But we cannot deny the actions he took, death of the author has nothing to do with that.
Tywin is a raging egomaniac, who sucks the joy out of life, abuses all three of his children and is a war criminal and rapist, who destroys the realm he seeks to rule, undermines his own family and their position to bolster his own preferred image of personal supremacy, and spends the series surviving through lucky breaks he did nothing to bring about, while getting thoroughly outplayed in both the military and political spheres of conflict. When he dies, his family has no friends or true allies, has been reduced to dependency on the Tyrells, and is reviled throughout the land, while the few members of his house who still regard his memory with a degree of respect are under the gun of Varys' plots, just waiting for him to pull the trigger and end their pretentions for good.
You can't 'death of the author' all those facts away and pretend he's a badass.
Never read the books, but Charles Dance put on a damn good performance in bringing to life an unforgettable character
Tywin simply understood that in order to be a house feared and in power you had to play the game right. It's actually pretty interesting that his 3 children embodied all of his qualities. Cersei inherited his ability to be cruel and political, Jaime inherited his charisma and strength, and Tyrion inherited his ability to form alliances through working with others to give them what they want. He probably didn't realize it, but his children did learn from him. His downfall was the fact that he just could not see through his own pride and disdain for Tyrion. Which ultimately lead to his death
Tywin not being able to realize that Tyrion was the only child that learned the most from him was definitely his downfall. He even hates it when others point it out to him (e.g. when Genna Lannister - his sister - pointed out that Tyrion was his true son and not Jaime). I think that a part of that is the fact that Tywin sees a lot of himself in Tyrion - a lot of himself that he doesn't like, to be more specific.
All because of some 🐱
Tyrion did not manage to take out even a single enemy in King's Landing, which was actually his task. His job there was to figure out who was behind Ned's execution, instead he played hero and only undermined Cersei for no real reason. Tywin should have left him cleaning the sewers.
@@atlash6387 No, his assignment was to rule. He was supposed to assess the councilors and execute any if he could find that they were double-crossing the Lannisters. And while he kind of blew that, imprisoning the only one of the three who was a die-hard Lannister (and specifically Tywin) loyalist, and leaving the two actively plotting against them in place, Tywin did no better leaving them in place to effect his own death, and ignoring Tyrion's suspicions about Littlefinger.
Tywin sent Tyrion to not so much undermine, as overrule Cersei, for EXCELLENT reasons, because she is grossly incompetent. It's Cersei who undermines Tyrion, out of her paranoia about the fortune teller's prophecy.
Except it doesn't work for the Lannisters. For any credible enemy, fear does not stop them. Ned was never afraid of Cersei, her spiteful efforts to punish his children and execute a wolf only inspired resentment and contempt, not fear. In fact, Tywin's terrorism is counter-productive. When Robb is setting out against him, Catelyn warns him that because of Tywin's history of brutality, this is a winning-is-the-only-option scenario for the Starks. In other words, where they might go into a fight against another opponent simply looking for bargaining position or making a statement, with the Lannisters, they have to go all out, that they cannot afford to deal with Tywin from any position other than strength. Later, when Jaime is trying to effect the surrender of Riverrun, he cannot offer any acceptable terms, because of his father's history of treachery & brutality (his own history of oathbreaking and refusing to explain himself does not help).
Tywin also does not "form alliances through working with others to give them what they want." The only alliances he makes force him to grossly overpay people who are unreliable and in the case of the Tyrells, actively plotting against the Lannisters. Because Tywin does not give others what they want, unless he has no choice, and everyone knows it. "Lannisters lie" is an aphorism in the realm, and "a Lannister always pays his debts" is an entirely cynical acknowledgement that they do so only by technicalities, while claiming their brutality is deserved.
With the Tyrells, Tywin is forced to share the spotlight on his triumphal display, he has to concede four spots on the Small Council to Mace Tyrell and his family and bannermen (one, directly at the expense of a Lannister), he cannot make a marriage alliance with a rival house without getting Mace's approval, and has to put his own son on trial for murder on the random accusations of a hysterical woman, because Mace is pressuring him. When the Tyrells plan to marry an heiress who is in Lannister custody, the only way Tywin can forestall it is by pretending ignorance and marrying her off as a fait accompli. He literally cannot tell the Tyrells "no". When they spurn his marriage offer, he not only has to accept it, despite the full knowledge of the deliberate and calculated-to-reach-his-ears insults toward his only daughter in their internal discussions, and pretend the offer was never made to protect his pride.
This is not an alliance, this is being Mace's bitch. And in large part, it is necessary, because Tywin's own military failures have left them desperate for the Tyrells' troops. In aSoS & aFfC, the Tyrells are pacifying the eastern Riverlands, rooting Stannis's followers out of the Reach, and besieging Stannis' two main castles of Dragonstone & Storm's End. The only Lannister forces in the field are at the siege of Riverrun and (barely) occupying Harrenhal. Jaime needs to turn to a flipped Stormlands knight to properly garrison the latter, and for the former, they need the help of the incompetent Freys and a number of unwilling riverland lords whom they suspect of turning a blind eye to anti-Lannister guerilla fighters, if not actually aiding & sheltering them. They are also relying on the Freys to pacify the northern Riverlands and to support the Boltons in the North. The one Lannister holding in their seized territory that they did not have to give to the Freys, Reachermen or Littlefinger, Castle Darry, is garrisoned more by Frey troops than Lannister men (and what there are of the latter, I would bet are more from Kevan's private resources than the levies or retainers of Casterly Rock). Tywin was losing a war to a teenager fighting in his first conflict, and even lost a battle to Edmure Tully. Tywin was marching to face Robb, despite the obvious fact that Robb couldn't actually take his castle or city, in response to pressure from, or fear of the response of, his bannermen, whose lands and castles WERE being threatened by Robb's large-scale raid. Tywin's position at Harrenhal had strategic advantages, which Tyrion explained to Cersei, but he abandoned it, to head to the opposite side of the continent, leaving the capital city and his grandchildren & access to the throne exposed, with powerful enemies in the field. This march west was not remotely to Tywin's advantage, it was a necessity he had to undertake to service the interests of his followers, because at that moment, they were more afraid of what Robb would do to their homes, family and property, than they were of Tywin's anger.
Fear does not stop the Starks and Tullys from standing up to the Lannisters, even when they shouldn't (in the case of Edmure's defeat of Tywin). It does not deter Beric, Thoros & the Brotherhood (in fact, Tywin's fear-generating methods only inspire and grow their resistance movement, creating friends and supporters across the region). It does not stop the Tyrells from demanding the moon from Tywin, the Freys from extracting marriages and castles as the price of their aid, or Varys or Littlefinger for running their own game under Tywin's eye, while making snarky double-meaning comments hinting at their true agendas. It does not stop Roose Bolton from telling Jaime "LOL, your dad can't get me in the North." And all that fear evaporates the moment Tywin shows weakness or dies. But people are rallying to Ned's children, who are not exactly in a position to benefit them, out of love for their father and respect for the family's way of ruling.
The whole POINT of Tywin's characterization in comparison to Ned's, is that Ned's lasts longer and works better, no matter what short-term advantages Tywin's methods seem to hold.
I think Tywin’s father confused love for respect while Tywin confused fear for respect.
Tywin’s father wanted to be loved by his people. He gave them whatever they wanted and never got angry, but, as a result, he never earned their respect.
Tywin has done everything he can to make people fear him. He responds to any insult with an excessive amount of brutality. When some houses refused to pay him back, he massacred them all. When Catelyn captured Tyrion, he sent the Mountain to burn and pillage the river lands. He threatens people to get what he wants by sending “potential allies” a singer to perform The Rains of Castermere. I don’t think he ever earned true respect because everyone is constantly plotting to overthrow the Lannisters. They show no respect for his name or his legacy by planning to tear it all down.
Ned was someone who earned people’s respect. Even after his death, his legacy is respected. The north went to war for him. Even after they’re defeated, the Manderly’s go out of their way to put Rickon back in Winterfell. The Northern men despise Ramsay for hurting “Ned Stark’s little girl.”
Nothing like this happens for Tywin. People acknowledge that he is smart and effective. Many fear him, but nobody respects him because his actions have hurt everyone in some way, shape, or form. His power came from his willingness to act as brutally as possible. As a result, he left his family with a kingdom full of people who want revenge.
ironically ,House Lannister's reputation under Tywin died with Tywin.
Bravo! Well said!
I don't think he massacred entire families because they refused to pay him back. In the books, he only demanded that they send hostages until they did. He massacred families only when they rebelled or had been successfully rebelled against.
People are forced to respect fear
@@ModMax69 Fear lasts only as long as the fearsome is present. The only legacy left behind is the people you embittered along the way.
Its important to understand that Tywin cared about family in the context of Lineage. He did not care about the individual, but the Lineage they were apart of and will leave behind. He cared about Family like a CEO cares about their company.
Tywin is definitely a legend, he left a great Legacy💯 You've captured his character traits flawlessly, painting a vivid portrait of Tywin Lannister's complexities with finesse. 💝
Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad you enjoyed the video. Stay tuned (and subscribed) for more ❤
Based. Bald. Badass.
Tywin also likely knew that Joffrey was gonna get assassinated eventually and let it happen. Then again, that wasn't a matter of if, only who and when.
He worded to Joffrey indirectly often enough, knowing Joffrey had the makings of a new Aerys, and tried to mitigate any damage the boy king made.
I also feel that eventually, Tywin would have had him assassinated if he couldn't stop being Aerys 2.0.
Tywin is a mix of Machiavelli and Marcus Aurelius.
Yeah, I can see some of that, but George did admit that he based him off of Edward Longshanks.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 Another good reference.
I won't day he's a mix of them but rather their ideologies.
The whole hypocrisy of tywin loving his family but destroying it with how cruel and uncaring he is ,is missing from here.This is not a character study but in a way a political video. Family for tywin isnt his actual family but the idea of a great dynasty thats why he plays the game of thrones a game that both causes suffering to the people of westeros and his family.All for the glory and greatness of the family name which at the end means nothing.His own son killed him his children were so emontionally neglected that ended up in a relationship, thousands dead people dead because of him wanting to place the name and emblem of his dynasty to the throne.Not so different than actual modern day politicians
Agreed. Tywin is a badass, and that provides a very compelling power fantasy. But Tywin is a hypocritical villain, an insecure man beneath his commanding exterior. We often forget that the entire deal with ASOIAF is to present how petty and crude it's politics are, and Tywin is the apex of this. He only does what he does because of the shame he felt as a child, he overly identified with his house. He projects his own feelings of inadequacy onto his house, onto others. People miss this because Tywin is so commanding and badass, I feel, it's kind of like how people misinterpret American Psycho or Fight Club. We get lost in that masculine fantasy without realizing that those things are what's causing the very demise of modern civilization.
Exactly!!
Yeah this is a pretty thin argument, Tywin is shown to be a failure and his family seems likely to disintegrate within years of his death. He's drastically overrated and only does as well before his death because of the squabbling between renly and stannis. It's noteworthy that this video uses a lot of show content, the show was clearly pro Tywin in its typically shallow approach to the setting.
Just about every "Great Player" of the so called game of thrones is outwardly a really clever schemer, but inside they're just vile, petty and insecure people; all badasses in their own right, true, but that's kind of the thing about badasses; they're bad, and asses who are often revered when they should be reviled. Not that I don't get why super good killers or super good manipulators are seen as awesome for their respective abilities, hell, many of my favorite characters are such horrid people. There's just something about such character that just seems to draw fans. Then again ASOIAF's cast are all immensely flawed human beings, so really its just a case of pick your poison.
Its funny to me how people are able to call king Jeahearys the greatest Targaryan king of all time and praise his achievements despite the fact that he too was a flawed father who lost multiple children because of this but when it comes time to praise and respect Tywins achievements they disregard it because he was a "He was a terrible father"or "he was a hypocrite"😂
The video we needed❤
Can’t wait for you to blow up. You make really good videos keep it up ✌🏽
Thank you so much, bro. I will 😭
The Frey's were given Riverrun but theyre still not Lords Paramount. That honor belongs to Littlefinger when he was given Harrenhall
I think the most compelling thing about Tywin is that, besides Tirion, he took every decision right to achieve his objectives. But his ruin was for what was lacking in his persona, he didn’t have any empathy for others, specially for his children, they were just pieces for his grand scheme. His cold heart nature was ultimately his downfall.
His objectives were vain & self-glorifying, and many of his methods were self-destructive. Tyrion lays out the smart response to his capture, how appealing to the king will vindicate the Lannisters, because the Stark targeted the wrong sobling, and embarass the Starks and undermine their position against the Lannisters. This could also be a step to Tywin replacing Ned as Hand. What Tyrion worries about is Jaime &/or Cersei actingly rashly or out of ego, and starting a fight. But that's what Tywin does, attacking the Riverlands in defiance of Robert's order to end the conflict. Then, he attacks the emissaries Ned sends in Robert's name, which is a huge provocation demanding retribution. If Robert survives his hunting trip and learns what Tywin has done, that's the end for House Lannister. Tywin goes to war against the Tullys when they are allied by marriage to two other Great Houses, both of whom are very close to the King. That's an insane correlation of forces against him, and he was purely lucky that things went so well for him, between Robert's death basically neutralizing House Baratheon in the fight, Petyr secretly making Lysa keep the Arryn forces out, and Edmure bungling the initial troop dispositions.
Tywin made horrible moves and was heavily dependent on the the Tyrells after his losses in the war depleted his own forces, to the point that has he lived, even if no more crises arose, he'd have ended up being edged out of his grandson's government.
"Did you love him?" Jaime heard himself ask.
His aunt looked at him strangely. "I was seven when Walder Frey persuaded my lord father to give my hand to Emm. His second son, not even his heir. Father was himself a thirdborn son, and younger children crave the approval of their elders. Frey sensed that weakness in him, and Father agreed for no better reason than to please him. My betrothal was announced at a feast with half the west in attendance. Ellyn Tarbeck laughed and the Red Lion went angry from the hall. The rest sat on their tongues. Only Tywin dared speak against the match. A boy of ten. Father turned as white as mare's milk, and Walder Frey was quivering." She smiled. "How could I not love him, after that? That is not to say that I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man that he became ... but every little girl needs a big brother
to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little." She gave a sigh. "Who Will protect us now?"
What sound alliances did Tywin make? The Tyrells, who are looting the kingdom and murdered Joffrey, while taking advantage of Tommen's youth to influence him? The Boltons, who told Jaime "LOL, Tywin doesn't scare us", whom he was plotting to betray from the outset? The Freys, who are inspiring hatred & defiance in the Riverlands and North, and likewise, are claiming a wealth of castles and marriages from the Lannisters? The Martells, who took his granddaughter, while plotting to restore the Targaryens and leave Tywin in ruins, whose pretense of alliance did not stop them from interfering in Tyrion's trial?
The only allies who are not costing the Lannisters more than they are worth are their bannermen, who were not made allies by Tywin's diplomacy, but by inheritance and an accident of geography.
What exactly is Amory Lorch worth? Gregor Clegane has value but Tywin would rather let him indulge all of his sick vices rather than do anything helpful. I suppose Gregor and Amory can't solely share the blame for making nearly all of the Riverlords and the Martells hate the Lannisters since Tywin ordered them to commit their numerous atrocities in the first place.
Pycelle, Forley Prester, Addam Marbrand, and Kevan are the only Lannister supporters I can think of that are doing more than just perfunctory service and aren't actively harming their cause, and Kevan is a Lannister.
@@venus2677 I think Davos & Lorch are played off as examples of the best & worst ideal of a loyal landed knight. Lorch does all his lord's dirty work, and is a force of pure destruction and ruin, incapable of doing anything positive or building, and he is left to hold a ruined castle with his archrival, betrayed and murdered. While Davos is valued for his honesty, morality and loyalty, and is loyal to his lord by helping Stannis be better, and checking Stannis when he falters. Even their sigils show their natures - Lorch is a manticore, a venomous creature kept in a box and let out to murder, while Davos' is a ship that brought life-saving supplies to a besieged fortress. Just as Brienne & the Hound are counterexamples for knights who fail to live up to their vows, Davos represents true loyalty and fealty from knight to lord, even though the same lords who turn up their nose at treating him as a peer, would graciously accept Lorch in their company.
IDK about Prester, either. He hasn't exactly shone. All he did was retreat from a battlefield when he saw his fellow commanders getting trounced. There was a river between him & the foe, so it's not like he was really in danger, either, and he was there as a participant in a manifestly unjust war, being carried out with barbaric means. Jaime hypes him up in his head, because he is beginning to get a sense that his cause and his faction is shit and maybe doomed, and I'm pretty sure early in the next book we are going to see a massacre of Prester's force by the Brotherhood under Lady Stoneheart, come to free her brother & avenge herself on the Spicers.
Pycelle is utterly incompetent & cowardly. Varys says that he loves his office more than the loyalty the office is supposed to hold, and I think that's true for the Lannisters, too. He won't take any real risks to help them, and hands over the crucial evidence to Ned, as well as giving him a fairly accurate report of everything about Jon Arryn's last days, except his cause of death. He might root for Tywin and whisper secrets to the Lannisters but he won't bestir himself to do the right thing, even for his own team when needed. He doesn't try to right the ship until Cersei is locked away, and for all we know, he merely went along with Harys Swyft who called his son-in-law Kevan back to court. Basically, he backs whoever is in power, and never tries to oppose them, even when necessary. He'll give advice, but no more than that.
And Kevan ... he's Tywin's right hand in all ways not just the good ones. Tywin orders massacres, and Kevan carries them out. Tywin plans to do awful things to people, and Kevan is his sounding board. Kevan goes out and says the things in councils that Tywin doesn't want to, either because people will push back, and Tywin doesn't want to be seen as stooping to argue, or because he doesn''t know how the idea will be accepted or if it's dumb, and so Kevan takes the flak. Like Lorch & Pyelle, he's an enabler of one of the worst men and worst causes in Westeros, and it seems he does it out of vanity and greed. Where Tywin's other siblings pushed back, even if only for their own egos, Kevan abased himself so as to get the rewards and to assuage his vanity over the Lannisters being feared instead of laughed at. Where I think that Tywin was so deep in denial that he could not accept the truth of the Twincest even if he caught them making out, Kevan knew the score and went along with making Joffrey king.
@@Gunleaver I think your assessment of Lorch is spot on. Well said.
Forley Prester shines in comparison to Jaime and Stafford. Tywin clearly appointed both as leaders of his hosts because of their name despite their lack of capability within the role. Forley does what he can to recover from their blunders. I'm not comparing him to Randyll Tarly or Robb, since he hasn't been put in a similar position to them.
I debated including Pycelle. His most notable actions tip the scales for the Lannisters, but I don't think it's out of loyalty, but for self-preservation. Even convincing Aerys to open the gates to Tywin falls within that idea. Aerys was going to torch the entire city Pycelle included.
Pycelle does try to influence events but has an aversion to risk that keeps him from reaching the level of Petyr or Varys. Him giving that book to Ned is an example, as well as him informing Cersei of Tyrion's plan to betroth Myrcella to Dorne, which is probably the riskiest thing he does in the books. Ultimately he fails to stop Tyrion from weakening the Lannisters by making Myrcella a hostage and potential rival claimant, but you can't say that he didn't stick his neck out.
What massacres did Kevan carry out? He relays orders from Tywin to his dogs, but he doesn't join them in carrying it out. He clearly has an aversion to the unsavory sellswords that Tywin hired, but is too cowed by Tywin to directly criticize that, or any other of his, decisions. Kevan's actions after Tywin dies and Cersei is arrested shows that he's more capable than "never having a thought Tywin didn't have first" as Tyrion puts it. I'm not sure when he learns of Cersei and Jaime's relationship, but he keeps it a secret, at least in part, to keep them and their innocent children, Tommen and Myrcella, from being killed. Kevan is a dutiful man that lived under an immoral blowhard.
@@venus2677 Relaying the orders is complicity. He is at Tywin's side at all his war crimes. When, before Tywin's death, are they ever said to not be in the same place? For that matter, where do we get any indication of his decency? His revulsion toward the sell-swords is just the basic snobbery of his class. Tywin has it too, he's just too proud to ever let anyone see his distaste for them. Kevan admits it when Tyrion notes he loves Tywin and he says nothing about any personal qualities or their relationship to justify his affection, instead, he cites Tywin's accomplishments which are a euphemism for his first atrocities. Kevan loves Tywin BECAUSE Tywin murdered innocent family members of his enemies, because he marched the woman their father took as a concubine naked through the streets, and because of the war crimes that gained them the illusion of victory in the current conflict. Kevan is a combination of Speer & Himmler to Tywin's Hitler.
I remember watching little finger and Varys doing their little schemes in GOT and the books. They always felt so fearsome and capable. Yet beneath this all, I knew they were merely boys playing their little games and that Tywin was the real player. His rise had evaluated the Lannister name so much so that in HOTD I automatically respected his ancestor. This is Tywin, a giant as big as a dragon.
Funny you say that since Littlefinger and Varys both manipulated him and his family quite easily. Hell, the only reason Tyrion was able to kill Tywin was because of Varys.
The Lannister-Tyrell alliance is crumbling, and that's a lot worse for the Lannisters than the Tyrells, while Littlefinger seems to have consolidated his regency over the Vale and Stormlander castles are being swept over by the claimant Varys supports.
He spent so long looking down on the realm and outward for Lanister threats, but he never looked inward at the rot he grew within his own family.
His only flaw. 😭
Tywin is the goat
Lmfao no way
He is a legend. 💯
@@MrMustache-yn4zm who is the greatest
Hotpie
No but to be honest the reason I say Tywin isn't the goat because of 2 reasons:
1, he only thinks for himself and his family, makes him a horrible and hypocritical father to tyrion, he's also just a straight asshole 90% of the time
2, he's unnecessarily cruel, what is with him hiring the worst men possible (the bloody mummers) you can blame Gregor for all of it but he was always behind Gregor and he let Gregor get away with everything.
Overall, I just don't think of him as a good king. he's as good a leader as Stalin, Maegor, and Rhaenyra.
Like Stannis but cruel and self entitled. So yeah Stannis the Mannis is the GOAT @@jjosifovic
@@MrMustache-yn4zma terrible father he was but I would argue some of his cruelty is warranted to instill fear of his house. Rhaenyra was a good leader? Definitely disagree on that but I can definitely agree with Stannis being the goat n he is in my top 5 game of throne characters of all time.
Thank you for new GOT content!
Thank you for watching ❤
Sorry, I had to reupload the video. I had a claim against me and it required me to change a few details, or else I’d be demonetized rn. 😭😭😭
What was claimed?
@@ChristianAuditore14 Some music, but I couldn't cut it out without muting a whole chunk of my work.😭😭😭
He's my favorite character in the show
Mine too. 😭
Cersei only understood Tywin's ruthless, crushing side, never his mutually beneficial diplomacy or restraint in violence
True.
Tywin restraint in violence? Now that is a nice joke.
“Restraint in violence”
Literally committed genocide against 8 houses throughout his career.
@@nont18411 as opposed to Joffrey who used cruelty and violence at every turn to, as well as Aerys
What did you have to correct on the reupload?
Just some music, but I couldn't cut it out without removing a chunk of my work. So I had no choice 😭😭😭
Awesome work my friend!
Thank you. ❤
…we do? The man is the epitome of the evils of pride and comeuppance. I think Jaime is the one shortchanged by the show, because of how much he grows as a person AND gets smarter
The show gives Tywin a glow up and somehow forgot that Jaime was supposed to have grown as a character.
10:13 not lords of the riverlands but lords of riverrun.
very nice take on such a fascinating character!
Tywin is a really captivating character and a fan favourite. Only problem with him was the whole Tysha incident…I didn’t really see what could be gained from that
2 things:
1. To show the commoners that no mere commoner can take the Lannisters as a possible choice of spouse. He hated his father's commoner concubine commanding the Lannister soldiers and wearing their jewelry.
2. To break his son's will so that he can never act out against his father's will. He also hated Tyrion so he probably wanted to get him for petty reasons.
@@zizonesol i think he could’ve just done what he did to his father’s concubine. Didn’t need to have his guards and his son grape her…i like tywin but that just can’t be rationalised. I think that was his one act that was just really unnecessary
@@akwasiampofo5565 Like I said, he hated Tyrion and probably wanted to torture him without affecting him physically.
And he can't hurt him physically because he's a Lannister and hurting a noble in those times is heavily frowned upon.
Tywin is a man who likes to pursue a method that kills two birds with one stone without any regards to morality. By doing this, he made sure that the Lannisters are not to be even approachable by the commonfolks by spreading fear into their minds and that his son will learn a "lesson" not to disobey his father and at the same time, hurt him the worst way possible.
BTW I'm not justifying his action. He is a despicable man who would torture, kill, and grape all the "lesser" beings if it means he will stand at the very top of the social hierarchy. He acts cold and not interested in sexual desires but in reality, he's just as shameful as his father and Tyrion.
He is cruel
I think pycelles convo with Jaime after Tywins death summed it up perfectly
because all the characters have so much depth in the books and so you get drawn into all of the characters
Charles Dance played the living hell out of this role
Facts 🙌
Love how right before he goes into the court room to say hi to Geoffrey his horse leaves a shit at the door
Reupload?
Yeah 😭
He wasn't necessarily protecting his family, he was protecting the family name. He put both of his sons in harms way by sending them into war. He was protecting the family name, not the family.
You have solid takes! Wondering where you went. Very glad to see a video!
Thank you for watching. Very much appreciate it😭❤
The King who never was
Bless you Queen Margaery ❤️
My father was a nice guy but I'm not- Tywin Lannister probably 😂
Sounds like something he would say 😅
He the strong father winney Gen Z needs
great video. I don’t know about the book, but Charles Dance all but stole the show every single time he was on screen
I love tywins character
The goat of ruling
What episode was this from Im so behind 😂
Imagine Charles Dance committed so much that he actually went fully bald while playing tywin
Because he's the best character, simple as that
I am only show watcher but i love tywin, never had hate fot him
He was feared and respected, but never loved. He also was a hypocrite and his actions left his house in disorder. It is why long after Ned Stark died, his people still remember him and fight in his name, while as soon as Tywin died, all his hard work began to fall apart.
If you opened with him dying on the toilet with a fart sound effect that lingered, you wouldve been GOATED.
🤣🤣🤣 next time
This doesn't really touch much on content exclusive to the books or all the more interesting facets of Tywin's character. It kinda comes off as a fan compilation of achievements and growth trajectory for him, which is cool and all- but even in the show they hint at how insecure he is by having him refer like 3 different times to "how he will be remembered", talking about not "concerning himself with the opinions of the sheep" or his hypocrisy bedding Shae after chastising Tyrion his entire life for whoring. This last one gets him shot by his son in the shitter, probably after being poisoned.
As said neat video but ultimately not much depth here for a character with a lot of layers.
Tywin was a terrible father, but it's very interesting. You see, Jaehaerys was also not a very good dad in Fire and Blood. In fact, an argument could be made that he was pretty awful. However, people can seperate his parenting skills with his accomplishments and acknowledge that he was a great king. Tywin was the same, in my opinion. At the end of the day, he was a great ruler, even though he never wore a crown like Jaehaerys.
Now, that doesn't mean that he wasn't a hypocrite or a hard man. I acknowledge that in the video. Tywin DID indeed sleep with Shae, and he was too hard on Jaime by telling him to not worry about the "opinion of the sheep" (though he never said this in the book). In fact, it could be argued that Tywin's lack of warmth in parenting his children is the reason why Jaime and Cersei ended up having an incestuous relationship and why Tyrion is so f**ked up, sleeping with prostitutes and all. However, in his own weird way, Tywin was always just trying to provide the best for them. He made Cersei a queen and he tried his best to groom Jaime into a powerful lord that could take over from him one day. He even tries for his grandsons. Ultimately, he loved his family, even if he wasn't always the best in showing it - that cannot be denied.
I mean, the tittle of the video is "Why do book fans love Tywin Lannister", not "In depth analysis of the layers of Tywin Lannister"
@@darkphoenix2745Book fans don't love him, it's mostly show fans who simp for Charles dance too much.
The idea that Tywin united Dorne to the rest of the realm as had never been done before is a blatant falsehood.
Daeron did not struggle to keep peace between Dorne and the Great Houses, he struggled to keep his throne against the Blackfyre rebels (whose support was drawn, admittedly, in large part, from the anti-Dornish lords). Dorne was a very cooperative constituent part of the realm ever since Daeron took the throne and brought them under his reign. The Martells & Dornish were present at the Targaryen court throughout the subsequent years, with Queen Myriah, Queen Dyanna, Michael Manwoody, Doran, Elia & Oberyn's mother, Lewyn Martell & Arthur Dayne in the Kingsguard, Elia's marriage to Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne in her company, and during Robert's reign, the master-at-arms was Aron Santagar. The Dornish fought beside the Targaryens in the last two major civil wars of their dynasty, the Blackfyre Rebellion and Robert's Rebellion.
Tywin is the single individual, and his actions against Rhaegar's family the event, most responsible for the estrangement of Dorne from the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. They were doing great before Tywin massacred the sister of the Prince of Dorne and her children.
If Joanna Lannister had lived, the Lannister children may not have been so messed up
"Protecting his family" is not the only reason Tywin "is so cold and determined in his approach". He is cold because he is pathologically insecure and terrified of showing weakness, out of hatred for his father's amiability and submissive nature. He is similarly determined, because he cannot handle the idea of losing, or being weak or at the mercy of others. Tywin does not protect his family, he risks his family's survival and position on a gamble to buffer his pride.
Tyrion lays out the situation when he is arrested by Catelyn. He says that the smart thing for the Lannisters to do would be to insist on his being tried by the king, for the Starks' accusations. He is confident that he can beat an honest prosecution and thinks that this will be to their gain, because it would discredit the Starks. What Tyrion fears is that his siblings are not smart enough to see this advantage, and will do something rash, out of pride. And instead of Jaime or Cersei, it was Tywin who acted rashly out of pride, by attacking the Tullys. Robert commands Tyrion be released and says that the fight between Ned & Jaime squares accounts, and he wants no more bloodshed. And then Tywin attacks the Tullys anyway. That, right there, is a crime against the peace of the realm, in direct defiance of Robert's orders. Then, when Ned sends men, under a royal command, flying the king's banner, Tywin attacks the party! Even if he had been completely innocent of the attack on the Tullys, and Gregor had, in truth, been acting alone, attacking Beric & Thoros on the business of the crown is tantamount to declaring war on Robert!
If Robert comes back from his hunting trip without a mortal wound, Ned does not even need to use the twincest, he can keep silent to protect Tommen & Myrcella, and Robert is still going to war against the Lannisters to punish Tywin's rebellion and defiance. Tywin most likely goes down fighting, alone, without allies, and abandoned by his bannermen. Best case scenario, he realized the correlation of forces against him, and abjectly grovels for Robert's pardon. It would probably mean an agreement to cancel the crown's debts to Tywin, with massive fines, if the wealth of Casterly Rock is not confiscated outright, and Tywin and Jaime beheaded or going to the Wall, and Tommen named Lord of the Rock, with people hand-picked by Robert & Ned to rule the West in his name. And that's assuming Cersei and her kids retain their status, instead of being disgraced and disinherited with the grandfather whose sigil they wear in equal prominence to Robert's. Cersei & Myrcella could very well find themselves consigned to the Silent Sisters and Joffrey & Tommen sent to the Citadel or the Wall or the Faith, to remove them all from the line of succession, as Renly & the Tyrells push Margaery as a replacement for the seed of a traitor.
Tywin's miscalculations endangered his family. His actions during the Rebellion had the Starks believing the worst of his family and primed to accept Littlefinger's lie and arrest Tyrion when the opportunity arose, after refusing him the hospitality of Winterfell. His behavior had the Lords of the Vale ready to also believe the worst and not object to Lysa's treatment of the Imp. She certainly had no fear of turning him loose to be killed by the mountain clans. Tywin's arrogance and provocation of Aerys led to his son being taken hostage and permanently estranged as his heir and endangered at court as the Targaryen regime collapsed. His massacre of the royal family engendered the hostility of the Martells and started them plotting to destroy Tywin & all he holds dear. His greed and ambition bound Cersei to an abusive husband. And that's not even counting the brother-in-law/cousin whom Tywin was ready to see murdered as a hostage by the Tarbecks and and who is slain at the Battle of Oxcross in a war Tywin started and let a teenager gain the upperhand over him. Jaime and several of Tywin's nephews are made captive in that war, by that same teenager's victories as well.
EVERY danger that Tywin's family suffers during the series can be traced to Tywin and his behavior.
Impressive, very based.
Best lawful evil character
Tywin's lecture about "family first" shown around 14:05 is a show-only speech, because Book Tywin is incapable of giving it. Tywin does not put his family first. There is not one selfish desire you can cite Tywin sacrificing for his family, instead, he forces them into roles, regardless of their happiness, suitability to safety, for his own aggrandizement, power and glory. He risked his family in making an enemy of Aerys, and challenging the Baratheons. He forced Cersei to marry an abusive drunk, intended to make her marry off a list that included a younger man with whom she had nothing in common, a much older brutal warlord whose culture treats women even worse than Westeros, or a bisexual with an open mistress and a family of bastards who hated the Lannisters, he wanted to force Jaime to marry a teenager who was the widow of his own "nephew", forced Tyrion to marry a barely pubescent girl in a situation that called to mind Tyrion's traumatic sexual assault at Tywin's own hands, when he himself married solely for love.
Tywin married not to secure any alliances, or make his family more secure or to gain more wealth or lands for them. His bride was a Lannister cousin, who served no purpose other than to accommodate his egotistical belief that only the elite and super Lannister blood was good to mingle with his own.
Tywin had Tyrion & his wife gang-raped, he took up with Tyrion's prostitute concubine while Tyrion was in prison and is the prime candidate to have built the secret tunnel into Chataya's brothel while he was Hand of the King. By the account of the sister who appears to have loved him more than his own children, he was a crappy brother to all their brothers but Kevan, who utterly sublimated himself to Tywin in all things, doing his bidding slavishly and serving as his mouthpiece in council, giving people the bad news and floating unpleasant or risky proposals so Tywin does not look bad. Kevan is devoted to Tywin out of sunk cost fallacy, because he's come so far, and committed so many crimes for Tywin that he has to believe it was for a good purpose and a worthy leader, and Gemma's affection derives from her sharing in his Lannister supremacy and appreciating that he publicly denounced her husband as not good enough for her.
When Stannis has been defeated, the Joffrey is the sole remaining claimant to the Iron Throne, there is a reception at court to receive the fealty of the defeated and reward the victors. What should be a whole presentation planned and staged to glorify Joffrey and make a strong public impression of his authority & kingship, instead is all about Tywin. Rather than approach as a subject or vassal, on foot, and subordinate to the throne, Tywin rides in on a warhorse, clad in armor. He approaches his grandson's throne as a conqueror. Joffrey comes down from the throne to him, again, making Tywin the star, rather than the actual king who is the family's meal ticket. Because this is a book, created by a human being who is making a deliberate point, Tywin's horse takes a giant crap, that Joffrey has to step around in order to embrace him. In real life, this would be a random accident, but in a book, it can only mean that the author intends the reader to associate Tywin with shit, to make the point that embrace Tywin as the savior of your throne, means having to step over the shit he produces and causes to land in your path.
We see this motif repeated with the often-referenced jokes about Tywin shitting gold, and his death on the toilet, with the final words of the chapter in which he dies referencing a stench of feces, and the phrase "Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold." This is GRRM telling us that he is NOT what his legend says, that he does not produce anything valuable, that he is and always was, full of shit. The symbolism continues at his funeral, where his corpse stinks so badly that the whole sept is practically unendurable, and nothing can cover the stench, until finally, Tywin's stink is so bad that *his grandson loses his crown,* again, foreshadowing to the readers that the Lannister dynasty is doomed by the foul results of Tywin's own actions.
House Lannister is all about Tywin. You can only find Tywin-approved happiness by surrendering your will entire to his, and accepting unconditionally his view of the world and your place in it. He cares about his family only to the degree they reflect his own glory, and fit the narrow mold of his preconceptions of Lannister superiority. For all his chivalric inclinations, Jaime does not blindly serve Tywin's interests as he wishes, so he is unworthy. For all his intelligence and Tywin-like mentality, Tyrion is physically flawed and ugly, so he too is unworthy, and scorned and rebuked for the vices Tywin shares. For all her devotion to her family and her endurance of an abusive marriage has gained House Lannister a claim to the throne and numerous adherents at court, Cersei is a woman and only of interest to Tywin as a marital pawn and a babysitter for the grandchildren on whom his hopes for de facto rule of the Seven Kings lie.
If no one dares to move a finger against Tywin is because of his ruthlesness and cruelty, everybody in Kings Landing know that attacking Tywin Lannister is a bad idea. The terror that his single person transmits it is what makes him so powerful, yes he is a political mastermind and a bad general. However Charles Dances makes this character so incredible and charismatic that he owns the scenes he is in.
"Wanting to protect his family"
Tyrion: you mean it?
Tywin: L + Ration, Your wife got raped by me, your brother and my soldiers, you aint my son i just can't prove it yet, died by the trial AYO
Tywin doesn't make the Frey's the Lords of the Trident. He gives them the rule of Riverrun. Petyr Baelish is Lord of the Trident.
how do you think tywin would have dealt with the white walkers
Cersei, you will marry the Night King and that's that. 😅
in my opninion Charles Dance's performance in the series enhances the character compared to the books
"You would be a fool to think that the king is the most powerfull man in the seven kingdoms"
You do realize that the Dornish were in fact still plotting to take revenge on House Lannister for the murder of Ellia Martell, whilst planning to marry the Prince's son to the Targaryen heir? So that argument for Tywin being an efficient leader is a bit hollow :P
Good video, I like the whole style and presentation, I will keep watching all your stuff!
What's with the book fans? Show fans love him too!
Tywin is just lucky and cruel, he lost all the battles against Robb and got defeated by Edmure he won the war despite his incompetence because little finger wanted them to win.
You lost me at _"incompetence"._ 😅
Tywin was definitely cruel and brutal, but he wasn't _"just lucky"_ or incompetent. Unlike Robb, Tywin has experience in warfare and battles, so he is definitely not incompetent. Remember that in the book, Robb actively tries to avoid Tywin's army, because he knows that Tywin's army is bigger, more battle-hardened and that Tywin himself is a more experienced commander than him. That's why he chooses to meet Jaime's army instead and opts to send Roose Bolton to distract Tywin's main army from reinforcing Jaime's. Now, when Roose Bolton meets Tywin's army in the field he loses. Tywin *smashes* Roose's army... but obviously Robb was counting on that.
Robb is clever, but he was also young, bold and sometimes rash - so Tywin eventually figured out that he could use that to his advantage. He knew that the best thing to do, rather than to engage Robb in battle, was to just wait, be a bit patient, because Robb's rashness and boldness, though it might be great for winning quick battles, it will not play well in the long-term in terms of politics. He wanted to isolate Robb from his allies and wait for him to f*ck up his own alliances... which Robb did, exactly as Tywin expected him to.
Robb's first mistake was to leave Roose Bolton alone and isolated in the east without anyone watching his moves and making sure that he remained loya (remember that the Boltons are one of House Stark's greatest enemies, so Robb shouldn't have been so naive). Also, Robb failed to avenge the death of Lord Karstark's sons and allowed for the Kingslayer to be released, and then he married a random girl from a minor Western House and broke his alliance with the Freys. As soon as Tywin learned all of this, Robb was already doomed.
Tywin made a political alliance with the Boltons and the Freys and he secured a marriage alliance with the Tyrells to increase his armies. All the while he was also planning the Red Wedding to deal with Robb Stark quickly and cheaply without the need for another battle being fought. Tywin even made a secret alliance with Robb Stark's wife's mother, telling her to give her daughter moon tea and kill Robb Stark's baby in her womb (if there was one - Tywin, in the book, is not the type of man to take half measures). Tywin defeated Robb by politicking and being cleverer than him. He was definitely *not* incompetent.
Therefore, was Tywin cruel, brutal and cunning - yes; but was he incompetent, lucky or stupid - absolutely not.
@@thecriticalmaester9702
If it wasn't for littlefinger bringing tyrell to lannister side tywin wold have lost.
Even young and "rash" Robb was able to outsmart Tywin and would have successfully captured him if Tywin hadn't lost to edmure.
So Tywin's incompetence saved his life,If tywin would have won against edmure he would have been trapped between Robbs cavalry and rivermen. This was Robb's plan which got ruined because of Edmure's unexpected competence and Tywin's incompetence.
@@thecriticalmaester9702
"Unlike Robb, Tywin has experience in warfare and battles, so he is definitely not incompetent." This is not a logical syllogism. The second clause does not follow from the first. In fact, highlighting Tywin's superior experience only highlights Robb's ability to defeat him.
Robb is not afraid of fighting Tywin, he is seeking a means to accomplish his objective, rather than fighting for the sake of fighting. Your weasel-word framing of the strategic situation is trying to cover for the fact that Robb is just doing what any military theorist says is the best move - to attack the enemy at his point of weakness, rather than strength, and to seek the battles that will achieve your objectives. Robb is also going against the advice of older and more experienced men in making his plan. He is a true military prodigy, while Tywin never wins a battle without massive advantages in manpower or the advantage of surprise (via treachery, as opposed to superior tactics).
Tywin also does not SMASH Roose's army, he wins the engagement, but Roose's army is still a force in being, and remains a threat that Tywin has to take into account in his planning. Furthermore, Roose's conduct of the battle is so bad that he is either throwing the fight, or else is an incredibly incompetent general, and either way, the victory, against a smaller force, with no significant cavalry, is hardly proof of Tywin's military acumen.
"Robb's rashness and boldness, though it might be great for winning quick battles, it will not play well in the long-term in terms of politics"
This is incredibly ignorant. In feudal politics, winning battles is great politics. And Robb IS beating Tywin politically. Tyrion explains the strategic reasoning behind Tywin's hunkering down in Harrenhal. Tywin's goal is holding the Iron Throne for his family, and his army is the closest force of any significance they have near the capital, so he needs to stay near to protect the critical asset for his goal. And in spite of this, Robb forces him to leave his position and march all the way to the West. Because he isn't just winning battles, he is rampaging through Tywin's domains, making a mockery of his position as Warden of the West, and threatening the holdings and property of Tywin's vassals. Tywin HAS to respond to Robb, or lose all his followers, and so he comes west, leaving Kings Landing wide open for the taking.
Robb did not fuck up his alliances, they turned on him because they are treacherous and not particularly interested in doing their part. Robb never acts rashly, and what you call mistakes are only such in hindsight.
Robb was not being naive with Roose. You are forgetting or ignoring the point that his goals at the outset was simply to relieve the Tullys and get his father & sisters back. The situation changed with Ned's execution and Robb's acclamation as king. Now he had to find a way to force Tywin to the peace table when Tywin has nothing to offer Robb that he can accept. Recalling Roose is not an option, they still need his army in position keeping Tywin from marching on Robb's lands. And there is not much harm Roose can do where Robb left him, it is Edmure who turns him loose near the front. Furthermore, are you seriously suggesting that Robb's big mistake was not keeping the man who stabs him to death closer?
Robb did not fail to avenge the death of Rickard's sons. No one says this, no one blames or faults him for it. Rickard is being emotional and irrational. They were in a battle and died fighting. Jaime did not deserve death for killing them and Robb did not owe Rickard any recompense at the expense of his strategic goals. Rickard's complaint is as selfish as Catelyn's releasing him - both seek their personal goals related to their children, at the expense of a major asset of the kingdom. And Robb had nothing to do with Jaime's release, it was not a failure on his part in any way, and it had no effect on Robb's fate. Tywin was already plotting with Roose when Catelyn released Jaime. If he was never set free, the plan was for all the Tullys at the Red Wedding to be taken hostage, so Tywin's intention was probably to make a deal with whomever held Riverrun, to swap Edmure &/or Cat for Jaime. In any case, Tywin does not love any of his children, viewing them only as assets to further his own glory. The most important thing for Tywin's glory & prestige at that point was the elimination of Robb who had so badly showed him up, and if it cost him Jaime, so be it. What he mainly cares about where Jaime is concerned, is that he has a badass warrior son who makes him look awesome. This explains how easily he shuts Jaime out when Jaime stops playing along and makes it clear that he's a KG first.
"Tywin made a political alliance with the Boltons and the Freys"
The Boltons scorn Tywin and are using him for their own gain. They do not lift a finger to help the Lannisters with anything that does not directly benefit them and Roose (figuratively) laughs when Jaime threatens him with Lannister retribution. The Freys are treacherous, dishonest and structurally incompetent, incapable of acting as a unit. They are useless for anything but treachery, and now that the rest of Westeros is onto them, and they are figures of contempt, they will never get the chance for treachery again. Tywin has claimed as allies, two utterly unreliable families, and tainted his family with their crimes
"and he secured a marriage alliance with the Tyrells to increase his armies."
Tywin had nothing to do with that. Tyrion saw the opportunity & Littlefinger handled the negotiations, and Tywin simply signed on the dotted line of the deal that Baelish & Mace Tyrell agreed on, which in hindsight, was far more stupid than Robb leaving Roose in command, considering Petyr and the Tyrells were plotting to murder Tywin's king & grandson, and frame his son for the crime. And Tywin needed to increase his armies, because of all the losses he suffered in picking a strategically moronic fight against the alliance that brought down the Targaryens.
"All the while he was also planning the Red Wedding "
Bullshit. He was NOT planning the Red Wedding at this time, because none of the conditions existed, and he was blundering into Robb's trap, up until he got word that Kings Landing was in danger and the Tyrells were ready to help ... for a price, of course.
"to deal with Robb Stark quickly and cheaply"
LOL. How's that working out? The cost of the Red Wedding has been to give the Freys the lordship over Riverrun, an ancient and prestigious castle, when Tywin scorns them as lowborn parvenus, and two Lannister marriage, when he had previously held Walder's second son to be unworthy of a Lannister bride. Now he has to give his closest brother's eldest son & heir in marriage to the biggest slut in the Crossing, and incidentally making another Frey a lady of a castle, and his nephew Daven another Frey wife. He has to give the Boltons Wardenship & Lordship Paramount of the North, and legitimize Ramsey, and arrange prestigious marriages for three of Sybelle Spicer's children, and elevate the Spicer family to one of the most prestigious lordships in the West. These are the same Spicers who are two generations removed from being merchants, a class Tywin holds in contempt and for that reason, Sybelle's daughter was considered unworthy of Kevan's younger son. Plus, the Red Wedding has hardened the wills of his enemies, so that Jaime cannot effect the peaceful surrender of the Blackfish and Riverrun, and Lannister troops are being massacred without regard to the rules of war, while Lady Stoneheart is preparing to eradicate all the Lannisters remaining in the Riverlands. The Red Wedding was not cheap by any measure, rendering the brilliance of Tywin's plan rather in question.
"without the need for another battle being fought."
It's hilarious how you have to resort to double standards to hype Tywin. Earlier, Robb avoiding a fight with Tywin was proof of Tywin's awesomeness and supremacy. Now, suddenly, avoiding a battle is a sign of efficient planning. In fact, the reason is, as Tywin admits to Tyrion, that he could not defeat Robb in the field. Tywin is avoiding another battle with Robb, because he's afraid of the outcome.
"Tywin defeated Robb by politicking and being cleverer than him." He was not more clever, he was outsmarted by Robb every time they clashed mentally. You don't outsmart someone when their disgruntled rivals extort a fortune from you to betray and murder them. Robb outsmarted Tywin on the Green Fork and again with his chevauchee in the westerlands, and he set up a trap that Tywin gives no sign of having figured out, while he was repeatedly charging Edmure Tully's lines in an effort to chase after Robb. No one out-thought Robb at the Red Wedding, they took advantage of the assumption that no one would be so stupid as to destroy the trust in customs ensuring safe conduct in warfare. When you break a custom like guest right, you are basically forfeiting all trust forever, and making people think they no longer have to play fair with you, and the result is that the next two books sees Freys being murdered all across the realm, while Lady Stoneheart prepares the really devastating strike on the Lannisters.
Thinking Tywin won ANYTHING is like boasting about Germany's military brilliance in late 1941. The Lannisters are not going to fare any better going forward than the Nazi party did from '41 on, and Tywin is the one who set them up.
"He was definitely not incompetent." That Tywin needed all this inside held to create a ruinously destructive situation suggests that, yes, he kind of is.
Dorne was ruled by the iron throne
Don’t forget to Frey are his in-laws
Tywin is a genius in a very short-sighted way. And he is a weak man's idea of a strong man.
Somewhat glosses over what a total and abysmal failure Tywin is as a father - and as a person that says he wants to restore his family - but appears to only succeed in restoring himself. But other than that... Yes - he is a compelling character.
the thing about Tywin is that he far more brute than genius when it comes to politics a great administer but a poor leader outside of it and filled with the pomp and arrogance that makes targaryens humble
look at the situation with the riverlands where a smarter more patient man would see no need to fight or wage war Catelyn had no evidence, she had taken the member of a paramount house their was nothing ned or cat could do to justify this act an better man would see justice was done and use this to defame the appearance of the stark house hold and take reparations from them for this
Tywin on the other hand senses a threat to his wire thine ego and has to fight and wage war, kill and murder for his appearance and dynasty his first reaction is to throw a hissy fit instead of be politically savvy
even look at his past and ideology power is where men think it is his defiance of his father and destruction of the reynes no matter how "justified" was wrong and without bases as he was not yet their lord yet he pushed them to rebel and squashed them for it, even him marching to war in defiance of the kings peace Tywin is the type to break laws habitually because he views himself as having all the power and now I can imagine why aerys hated him because he was on the money on Tywin and a lot of things
I mean a family doesn't accuse another family of attempting to assassinate thier child and forget about it after a trial those are seeds of war and like machiavelli said leaving it is just giving the enemy time to destroy you , Tywin wanted to send a message don't start shit with house lannister. Matterfact Ned himself sent Catelyn (who captured Tyrion on her way there) to ready every Northern lords army because he knew war was inevitable.
If Tywin simple took his father's army's and destroyed the Reynes I would agree but no if the Reynes believed Tywin was not thier lord they should of ignored him instead they used it as an excuse to rebel against the Lannisters.
Tywin the Mannis!
Also "crushes all of Jeoffreys enemies in the field of battle"...I dunno if thats strictly true 😅
If Tywin sat the throne, Dany would have been handled, the Night King thwarted, and the Seven Kingdom set stronger than during Aegon’s Age.
reading the book and he's essentially the same character but maybe a bit crueler.
Fear is his weapon. But it is temporary. After his death the others are useless they surely gone into the old status. Targaryns ruled 300 years with fear. They have a weapon Dragons. Aftr the death of dragons civi lwar broke out at last collapsed the dynasty. Everyone feared and hated the mad king. So Tywins action to targaryns was not criticised very much and noone wanted an another targaryn rule.
Man I love Tywin and the Lannisters. Wish we got to see Tywin’s plans come to reality. They really need to do a Tywin and Lannisters prequel series.
But Tywin makes Baelish the Lord of the Riverlands, not the Freys, right? At least in the books
It happened in the show too, but they kind of forgot that Petyr was named Lord of the Riverlands.
"love" isn't the right word. "respect" is more apt, and Tywin definitely would have preferred that anyway.
If he had been nicer to his other son he might have lived
what could happen if Tywin was alive when Daenerys invades Westeros in season 7?
Tywin would have all the 7 kingdom behind his back.
- The Tyrell because Margaery was the queen.
- The Riverlords would follow him because the Freys become lord paramount of the trident.
- The Vale would follow because of littlefinger was behind Lysa Arryn
- The north because of the Bolton. Ramsay only betray he's father after Tywin death, and even if Ramsay kill Roose, Tywin wouls crush the rebelion with iron fist.
- Storm end because of King Tommem Baratheon
- Dorne was butthurt because of Oberyn death, but Tywin would negotiate with Oberyn old brother
- Greyjoy would follow him.
Tywin will face Daenerys in sea, when the dothraki cant fight, Westeros crew will only has to deal with the 3 dragons and the greyworm crew.
Cersei did not become queen by any skill or virtue of Tywin, but because Robert's fiancee was dead, and because the Lannisters were a Great House with a lot of wealth and power, none of which came from Tywin. It was the position of the Lannisters, and their bloodline, both of which were inherited by Tywin, and not his creation, that made her a candidate for a royal marriage. If Lyanna had not died, Tywin would have had to settle for marrying her to Stannis in order to get in good with the new regime. He was very much on the outside looking in when Robert took the throne, and felt the need to undertake extreme demonstrations of support in order to get a foot in the door.
None of the royal marriage arrangements in the Baratheon dynasty are the result of negotiating skill on the part of the other side's family. Stannis' marriage to Selyse Florent was because her family were rivals to one of the most powerful Houses in Westeros, and the strongest & last supporter of the Mad King. The marriage was a warning to the Tyrells that if they did not play nice, the crown was ready and willing to back House Florent's claims to preeminence in the Reach. Sansa was selected as Joffrey's bride because she is one of two daughters of a Great House in close enough age to Joffrey, and because Robert is looking to replicate the ties between his family and the Starks that never came to pass with his own betrothal. Trystane Martell & Margaery Tyrell were betrothed Cersei's children because, again, they were the offspring of Great Houses, except at a time when the Lannisters were desperate for allies. So it's doubtful that Tywin had anything to do with the marriage, rather it was the choice of the crown, and Tywin felt constrained to take it. He certainly does not seem to have obtained any special favor or provision for himself or House Lannister as part of the marriage, with most of the Lannister appointments and favors coming later through Cersei's pressure on Robert.
When it is up to Tywin to negotiate advantageous matches, he fails to get Rhaegar for Cersei, he blows his chance to make an alliance with Dorne, and alienates the Martells. His efforts to get in on the bloc of alliances forming among the Starks, Tullys and Baratheons founders when Jaime is taken out of the picture by Aerys (way to maintain control of your House, losing your heir and missing out on alliances, because of the machinations of a jealous 15 year old girl), because he's too proud or not skilled enough to come up with another match. The Tyrells reject his offer of Cersei for Willas, and he is trying to wriggle out of the Margaery-Tommen match with the vain hope that they will accept a disgraced crippled knight who is merely heir to Casterly Rock, over a reigning king, who has a better claim to the Rock as well. Meanwhile, the Freys whom he considered unworthy of a Lannister daughter, are able to claim the hand of Tywin's eldest & closest brother's eldest son (and the next strictly male-line heir to the Rock) for the castle bicycle of House Frey who is the widow of a hedge knight.
The notion that Cersei's marriage to Robert owes anything to Tywin's skill at arranging marriages or his personal prestige is not supported by either his track record, or the marital history of the Baratheon dynasty.
Tywin's alliance with the Tyrells is hardly an example of him playing fair. It does not secure the longevity of his dynasty, any more than ANY marriage that would produce offspring would. The Tyrells MURDERED JOFFREY! Are you really this stupid? Tywin does not let them increase their power out of fairness, he does so because he has used up most of his fighting strength in his futile efforts to subdue the Riverlands. Nothing Tywin does with the Tyrells is out of fairness or respect for their position, it is desperation and the fact that he needs them, badly, because he's screwed up every other potential source of assistance.
And it's worth point out, that the alliance was none of Tywin's doing and not even his idea. When Renly dies, Tyrion & the Council seize on the opportunity to offer Margaery the queenship she would have had if Renly had won, and Littlefinger does the actual negotiations. Tywin's only contribution is to sign on the dotted line when messengers reach him to let him know, and at that moment, Robb is plundering his territory, Stannis is approaching Kings Landing where his children don't have nearly enough troops to defend the city, his eldest son is a captive, and he himself has just lost a battle to Edmure Tully, leaving him cut off from his base of power.
It does not take a genius or brilliant strategist or expert negotiator to, in Tywin's circumstance, say "Yes, sure, I totally agree. Fight Stannis with me and Margarey can marry Tommen, you can have all the seats on the Small Council you want, Loras can be a Kingsguard, Garlan can be a lord, please just bail my ass out of the fire, and let me pretend I'm the bigshot Hand and regent, please?" If the Tyrells balked at anything Tywin asked, they could sit back and let Stannis take the crown, and probably march Tywin in chains to Kings Landing to buy themselves forgiveness for besieging Storm's End and backing Renly.
I know this is a slightly out there theory but I think tywin killed Joffrey
I couldn't disagree more. Tywin acted to protect a legacy. To protect house Lannister. That's not protecting the family. He did everything he had to, to guarantee the legacy of his name and his house name, including sacrificing his family. He did what he could to kill one of his children. So, I don't think he did anything for his family.
Maybe if Jonna didn’t die he couldn’t of been a better man and the half the world wouldn’t hate his kids an Tyrion would of been love better all he had to do was treat Tyrion like a son Tyrion was everything that he wanted in a son but him being a dwarf fuck it all up he let his pride get in the way of loving his own blood
Tywin did not win the War of Five Kings through skill or leadership, but by raw dumb luck, and is only counted as the winner by randomly assigning an end date to the conflict that favors him. His reputation is also buffed by his conveniently-timed death, which helps separate him from the consequences of his actions coming due.
He did NOT crush all of Joffrey's enemies in the field of battle. He eliminated Robb Stark through treachery and murder, for which he had to pay dearly, sullying his family bloodline with multiple marriages to Houses he considers unworthy, and granting castles and titles to low-born men he scorns as new money interlopers. He defeated the Tullys in his initial campaign, largely through ineptitude on the part of the opposition (and the last time he takes the field against them, he loses to that same commander) but does not eliminate them, and they keep fighting beyond his death. Their castle only changes hands, again, through a a threat to murder a child and military action by people other than the Lannisters, and is foreshadowed not to last long, since both Catelyn Tully & Brynden Tully are still at large and in the field. Tywin did defeat Stannis in a battle, with the advantage of surprise and overwhelming numbers, but again, he did not eliminate Stannis, who is gaining strength as the Lannisters falter.
Finally, wouldn't the people who ACTUALLY MURDERED Joffrey be counted as one of Joffrey's enemies? Because Tywin did not eliminate them at all, rather he welcomed them into the regime, all but turning over the keys to the Red Keep, and is all but kissing their asses. He not only does not eliminate the Tyrells as a threat, they linger to plague his daughter and brother, and Tywin himself is forced to put his own son on trial for a murder the Tyrells committed and give Tyrion's council seat to a Tyrell.
These same Tyrells are the ONLY great House Tywin ever forms an alliance with, and it's not so much an alliance as an opportunity for them to take over rule of the realm from the Lannisters. They are basically carrying out Tywin's dream, at his own expense. In fact, Tywin is notoriously short on major allies among the great Houses and his own conduct in large part is the cause of this. He blunders into a war against the Stark-Tully-Arryn-Baratheon alliance that took down the Targaryens, out of pride and arrogance, and got lucky that outside factors, over which Tywin had no influence or control or even knowledge until after the fact, tore apart the alliance before it could crush him. The alliance with the Tyrells is due to the efforts of the son he despises and the Council he sent Tyrion to ride herd on, and it's under Tywin's direct supervision that they begin edging out the Lannisters and looting the realm. The Martells and Starks are adamantly hostile to the Lannisters and Tywin personally, because of his actions during Robert's Rebellion. Under the rule of Robert Baratheon, Tywin's own son-in-law, and the Handship of Jon Arryn, Tywin is effectively an outsider in the regime, given no influence over the rule of the realm or great offices, being forced to work through his daughter and the minor functionaries she nags Robert into filling up the court with. He is suspiciously absent at court for a man whom the crown owes literally millions, and is the grandfather of the heir to the throne. All of which points at him being persona non grata, again, because of his bloody hands from the Rebellion and his daughter's utter failure to charm or make friends.
The funny thing is that although he ruled over the kingdom, he did not manage to rule over his own family and that is what brought him down at the end. His own kids were doing, being his back, whatever they wanted and undid almost all his plans. Only if he had payed more attention to what was happening under his nose and may be ruled his own home in a better way... what a failure.
I mean he is calculating and all...but wasnt he incredibly lucky during the war of the five kings.Everything practically lined up for him.
real strategy requires cunning
It was not Tywin's cunning that led to the Red Wedding, it was the treachery of the Freys & Boltons. All Tywin did was accept an offer, in exchange for a lot of favors he had to pay out, and which has destroyed the Lannisters' reputation and linked them to the despised Freys & their crime. Brienne is nearly killed by Lady Stoneheart & the brotherhood for carrying a Lannister sword and must buy her life and those of her companions by offering up Jaime instead. Because of the Red Wedding, Jaime is unable to get the Blackfish to surrender, and the turnover of Riverrun, obtained by more threats of brutality as Jaime plays What Would Daddy Do, is clearly only foreshadowed to be temporary, as the Brotherhood gathers around the place, with a spy already emplaced in the household, and a Lannister-Frey wedding on the horizon providing an opportunity for a perfectly poetic reciprocal massacre.
All the Red Wedding did was ensure the permanent hatred of the North and Riverlands for the Freys & Lannisters. Where once the northmen said that Stannis was nothing to them, the Red Wedding has the wealthiest House in the North, and the family of the man who made that statement all lining up for Team Stannis. The massacre might have made the riverlanders bend the knee, but the antipathy and enmity generated by the atrocity means that the Lannisters' subjects in the Riverlands don't work together, and Jaime's war council devolves into unproductive squabbling and infighting. The crime of the Red Wedding doomed the Freys, and Tywin's encouragement of the plot and lavish rewards to the Freys and Boltons force the Lannisters to rely on these two doomed Houses, because no one in either region will ever follow or support the Lannisters again.
You have the audacity to cite Tywin offering the Martells justice as proof of his leadership? Tywin is, first of all, not making the offer. Tyrion did, and Tywin isn't happy about it. He also plots to cheat them, refusing to turn over Gregor for punishment, and ultimately, he himself is the one responsible for what happened to Elia and her children. Tywin is aware of the principle of the responsibility of leadership as we see in his attempt to deflect the blame upward to Robert, but he is the one who sent his most brutal knights after the royal family. Lorch had been used to a similar mission at Tarbeck Hall. That Twin would send him after Rhaegar's children and not think to say "no rape or excessive violence" makes him utterly incompetent as a military commander and leader, and even as a politician, considering he never seems to think or care what effect this would have on the Martells. Gregor's reputation for violence in the household is known even to Ned, in the remote north. That Tywin has NO CLUE about his violent tendencies is not very credible.
Oberyn believes, and the text gives the reader no reason to doubt him, that Tywin deliberately targeted Elia to punish the Martells for marrying Rhaegar after he told them that it was his intention to marry Rhaegar to Cersei. Any effort on Tywin's behalf to give the Martells justice for her death is a farce and a lie.
His only mistake was not merring again
Tywin is on darth vaders level as a villain .. he’s easily god tier
Honestly, I think Tywin is even more evil than Vader tbh.
He’s a strong ruler, without a doubt, but to his children, he’s probably the most awful father they could ever have.
True. 💯
I just love the fact you ignored the whole tyrion tysha stuff 😂 and what he did
Show some proof that Tywin's vassals respect him, as opposed to obeying him because he is their liege lord, or out of fear. Don't give me a quote from Olenna Tyrell, who is not a vassal of Tywin, and which exists only in the show, meaning it comes entirely from the brain trust that had Dany kind of forget about the Iron Fleet. Where is the confidence in the Lion of the Rock in the war council after Robb has outmaneuvered Tywin, relieved Riverrun, captured Jaime and now sits astride their supply lines, while two Baratheon brothers with more troops than Cersei has at court aim at the Iron Throne? Where is the sense that Tywin can find a way out of this? When Kevan's father-in-law wails that the situation is a catastrophe, no one argues with him, he just gets a sarcastic thanks "for pointing out the obvious."
We are very carefully not shown any perspectives or opinions of westermen in the later books of the series. We have no proof that their respect has withstood four major battles lost to Stark & Tully forces, Robb marching an army through Tywin's domain unopposed and plundering their lands and taking their castles, the near-fall of Kings Landing to Stannis, and the lords of the Reach getting lands, castles, tax breaks, wardships, and Council seats, while Tywin's vassals are conspicuously absent from the meeting where the spoils are divided. Stannis tells Jon that kings must be open-handed with their followers, as if reciting a commonly-known fact, but what generosity to the men fighting for Tywin get?
Sybelle Spicer requires Lannister aid marrying off her daughters, a Lannister bride for her son, pardons for her whole family and a lordship & castle for her brother to go along with preventing Robb from having kids, and meantime, she has herself in a situation where she can jump ship to the Starks without anyone knowing she was in cahoots with Tywin. There is no defiance when Robb takes the castle, no staunch loyalty to her liege lord Tywin, instead she just uses the situation to extort extravagant rewards from the family that scorns her as the daughter of a merchant, while taking virtually no risks, because if Tywin goes down, she can just stop the birth control and let her daughter bear Robb's heirs. The only western family to markedly improve their fortunes over the course of the series is the one managed to get a huge negotiating advantage over Tywin. Assuming the Westerlings and Spicers are not massacred by Brotherhood & Tully loyalists rescuing Edmure, their fellow western lords are going to be pretty damned resentful of an up-jumped merchant's son being granted one of the most prestigious titles in their country, while all the rest of the rewards go to Tywin's siblings, cousins and their children. Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane carried water for Tywin since Tarbeck Hall and the Rebellion, respectively, and they were left guarding a ruined, cursed castle, and both died screaming.
I would not be surprised if at some point in a future book, Cersei or someone calls for the lords of the West to come to the aid of House Lannister, and the response is "LoL, nope."
He's one of the more competent characters in the show. Kind of a shit father, but he had a plan, and knew how to make it happen.
Why do I feel like an AI created this video start to finish, including the narration and art?
Nah, I'm very much a real human being here 😅
I think this misses the point of his character. Tywin is a failure in the books, he's lucky in a number of instances and his children tear each other apart.
You gloss over the fact that the 'strong' alliance he achieves with the Tyrells immediately leads to his grandson being poisoned. In his own lifetime his schemes were cracking apart and obviously this culminates in his betrayal and murder at the hand of two of his children.
He has flaws yes like everyone including Ned but we can still acknowledge his strengths.