The bigger Hollywood got, the most wasteful it became. There is no foreign studio that can drop a quarter of a billion dollars on a movie, so they have to be smart about where their budget goes. Hollywood used to be like that. The people who came out of the Roger Corman school of filmmaking knew how to use a budget wisely. But now all you get is executives who think more money equals better movie.
@@fattiger6957 Great point. James Cameron worked for Corman and used that knowledge for the OG Terminator. I remember reading that Arnold's trailer for T2 cost more than making T1.
My wife is hooked on watching Law and Order and Law and Order SVU. It annoys her when I can literally count down to "important clue reveal", "cop makes wisecrack" or "judge throws out key evidence". Yet these are the longest running dramas in television history. Structure matters.
I watched a new L&O last night. It was really bad. As predictable as it used to be at least the plot and dialogue were okay. I don’t think those writers are still around. Last night’s episode was a straight up political statement on Palestine with very little in the way of a story.
@@garyjenkins7249 yeah, over the last 8 years the show has become a lot more political and topical, dealing with whatever is making the news cycle on MSNBC or CNN
Man, I remember as a kid back in the 70s getting all excited when I saw the great Bill Bixby show those white contacts in his eyes just before changing into the Hulk. Ahh, those were the days.
What you said about *_"the creative part is how you hide the structure from the audience"_* *THAT HIT HARD!* I remember growing up on NON-STOP SITCOMS and it wasn't until i was an adult exposed to "modern" sitcoms that i saw the repetitive pattern. For most of my life, the writers were SO GOOD, or at least good enough, to hide the repetitiveness, so each episode seemed unique and new. It's a shame that amazing skill is gone. It feels like learning how a magician does his trick, because a lesser magician screwed it up OVER AND OVER AGAIN!
I'll never understand why the writers ignored the comics. That's literally doing half their job, they just had to translate it to 22 minutes... or 35-40.
They are from Hollywood, so they have been told a million times how much better they are at writing than anybody else. So yeah, they would never in their live consider the comics to be any good or even adapt them directly. Not their culture. It’s just us silly fans of the source material that still haven’t given up hope.
@@davidgantenbein9362 That does seem to be the case. Hollywood people have always been under the (completely unfounded) belief that Hollywood movies are the pinnacle of art and storytelling. That's nothing new. How many great novels have been butchered in terrible screen "adaptations" over the decades?
Try Translating a 74 Issue Series with Constant Rotating Characters. Or a 300 Page Graphic Novel into a Script. You’ll find that doing such a thing is Not as Easy as you think. Sure, there are some things that can Hit the ground running, but be prepared for a lot of shifting parts. Captain American the Winter Soldier is a firm Example.
They hate the comics. Also they have like no experience. I'm encouraging EVERYONE to start reading the credits of writers on projects, and in particular, comparing them to older projects that were good. It's shocking. Half the people writing for Echo have ZERO credits, and a third of the people who do have credits have like 3 or 4 student films or one-off episodes of dramas.
The most amazing thing about the show was J. Gao's comment that she opened the writer's room three years before the show started. Three years, and that's the best they could do!
She-hulk is the worst example of a show that didn't knew what it wanted to be and (more important) who wa their target audience. As Chato said the writers had so much freedom they just write what they wanted and they made a series for them and just for them. I hope it works as a example for future shows.
Agreed. Putting in commercial break cliffhangers adds excitement to the show. In the case of Classic Doctor Who, you got essentially a 90 minute TV movie spread over 4 parts. But the end of each part had to end on a cliffhanger to make the viewer want to see what happens next. Writers working in those kind of constraints is apparently a lost art.
As a young lad in the late 1970s, whenever I heard Ted Cassidy's booming voice and saw that skull on the screen I couldn't sit still I was so dang excited. I still enjoy watching the original Hulk TV series today. I haven't watched a single minute of She-Hulk and most likely never will.
Honestly I feel like if they just grab some writers who did the original She-Hulk comics and came up with some of the best stories the show probably could have worked
Compared the IMDB credits of She-Hulk, Secret Invasion and Echo to the credits of Daredevil on Netflix. They aren't writers. They are people with virtually no experience being given the keys to a billion dollar franchise only to crash it in a ditch, almost certainly for political reasons. And yeah, the comic would have translated perfectly fine to a good TV show.
I thought Disney was going to use AI to write and produce the second season, as well as play all the characters, and Disney was purposefully making the first season so bad that no one would notice, then I thought maybe Disney is being run by AI, and that would explain all the formulaic but terrible movies coming out lately. Then I put down the scotch, cause that's enough of that.
The fact the Gao-ists were so incompetent they actually wrote an entire series that consistently showed her being a terrible attorney probably best demonstrated how terrible they were at writing.
Pfft! I'm not! Marvel Comics hasn't had a clue about She-Hulk since at least 1993! Most of the good comics featuring She-Hulk were published in the 1980s. Fortunately, most of the really good She-Hulk comics HAVE been reprinted within the last 5 years. You can safely skip most comics featuring the character that were published after 1993. You really aren't missing anything after the 1980s!
It's really not surprising at all. It's kind of inevitable when you hire a writing staff based on what diversity boxes they check, instead of how good they are at writing. You end up with a writer's room filled with talentless hacks, instead of gifted storytellers. Also, because you are an activist, you no doubt eagerly selected these diversity hires because they shared you enthusiasm for political activism. As a result, The Message blares forth loud and clear throughout the show, turning people off through its preachiness and all too obvious agenda. Now, in addition to bad writing, you're also turning the audience off through lecturing them. It's a perfect recipe for failure.
The original NCIS is one of my favourite shows. Watching Gibbs and co solve mysteries while getting to know their background keeps me watching each time. I actually own the series on DVD. I only watched She Hulk through the creators here on RUclips, way more entertaining. Keep telling us how not to write such garbage Paul, your an inspiration 🙏
Pop culture isn't frivalous or something you shouldn't pay attention to. You keep a finger on the zeitgeist and I'm very pleased you understand the importance of how shared stories are shared culture. Entertainment has always been both a symptom and a driver of that culture.
Damn, you know your shit Chato. Great points! I’m not sure I consciously realized how much I love the formulas of things: the Enterprise moves into frame from the left at the start of the show and out of frame to the right at the end, usually triumphantly. Comfortable bookends for a pleasant experience. Firefly usually opened and ended with a few space hillbilly banjo twangs. The mini-cliffhanger at the commercial breaks, the badass moment of transformation, like Clark Kent diving into a phone booth, Linda Carter starting her twirl, the Batmobile erupting from the Batcave… so true. She-Hulk had none of that.
I was absolutely in love with the John Byrne SHE HULK, and wanted to see more of that...but to do it, it would have had to be animated, to get the fourth wall breaks and AMAZING FANTASY level adventures. I still think that my other favorite of the time, DAMAGE CONTROL, would make an excellent series, and it's all mapped out in the comic books...but if they fuck it up like they did SH, then I'll just keep my DC collection softcover, and let it go at that.
>"I was absolutely in love with the John Byrne SHE HULK, and wanted to see more of that..." and cast Michelle McDaniel as Byrne's She-Hulk = 10/10 Show. :-)))
"No way it could be on effects." See all that pixie dust floating around Disney HQ in Burbank? Lemme give you a hint. That ain't pixie dust! It's all imported from Bolivia, Peru, or Colombia! That's why there have been shortages of chocolate in North America... All the "cocoa" is going to keep Mickey "happy" as he faces the proxy fight of his life! Disney executives don't want to face reality and need all the "happy dust" they can get!!!!
The weekly procedural with super hero perp of the week you describe is a show we already have. It's called Harvey Birdman Attorney at Law they did exactly that and that show is amazing. If they wrote it that way I'm sure it would have been good but then it wouldn't really make that much sense within the MCU. I think it really just boils down to bad writers and directors like everything else coming out of Disney and less the format of the show.
Well said. I use elements of three act structure when writing non-fiction military history. Because it keeps the audience engaged. Any basic community fiction writing course would have told the dunce 'modern writers' how it works - if they cared.
I liked Tatiana Maslany when she played the clones in Orphan Black. How she went from that show to this is beyond me. It baffles me how her acting also went downhill. When you see her on Orphan Black, she is able to act out various personalities because of all the clones she played. At the time, I thought that she had potential to be a fantastic character actress. Now I'd argue that all of that went out the window when she starred in She-Hulk, as well as treating the fans like shit. Her career died before it even had a chance of taking off.
imagine how this should could have been if they gave it to David Kelly the man behind Ally Mcbeal, the Practice and Boston legal House was a great show imho
Love how you bring your industry experience and unpack why this show is a perfect storm of failure. The goals of writers and show runners have drastically changed since the original Hulk show. The mid episode cliffhanger is the perfect example of ignoring what actually works in lieu of “breaking the mold”. Great commentary!
One thing about shows like Secret Invasion, She-Hulk, and Echo the struck me really clearly recently was the writer's experience. I would love for this channel to start looking at writers on projects and seeing what their past experience is, because it dropped from 50-100 credits experience average on Daredevil (in genre TV) to 0-4 credits experience average in mostly in dramas and documentaries. A lot of them don't even have student films. There's always hate going to the show runner, the executives, etc.. and people talk about the writers.. but nobody ever REALLY looks at their experience levels. Comparing the staff of Netflix Daredevil to Echo was 'holy crap' levels of revelation for me.
Last time the kids came to visit I sat down with my granddaughter and introduced her to Justice League and JLU. Before that it was Last Airbender. Huzzah for old school physical media.
Never saw it. I'm blessed to live deep in the sticks where reliable streaming isn't available without hassle, so I won't bother to pursue a show if folks like you don't care for it. Thank you.
One of my favourite bits of the _She-Hulk_ comics I read as a lad was a short background gag where a superhero from the 1940s (The Challenger!) travelled forward in time to the present day. He was getting legal advice on whether or not he could get his will reversed and retrieve some of his belongings. 😂 That, for me, was what epitomised the series: taking a universe of larger-than-life characters and situations and just putting that comically mundane bent on it. It's why this particular failure of an adaptation was so disappointing to me. Oh well.
I watched "the Hulk" at my grandma's every friday night for years. My grandma liked it, and we kids liked it: an entertaining show for everyone. The most exciting thing was waiting for the "the change." I miss good tv.
Worst part for me was their fourth wall break. Breaking the fourth wall has been around since Shakespeare and is supposed to give the audience an insight into their thoughts. It's Hamlet asking the audience "to be or not to be?" or Malcolm in the Middle defending his horrible actions to the camera. It should only explain the plot, not change it.
Even that rule can be broken if done well. Such when the villains in Spaceballs advanced the plot by getting Spaceballs on VHS and fast forwarding to where the heroes went to find them.
Great point. Malcolm did it all the time and is the perfect example on how to do it. Earlier show: Fred Savage in The Wonder Years reflecting and commenting on a moment from his character's childhood. And that was also to add context.
The wall break was an amusing feature of the Sensational She-Hulk comic series. That book was totally irreverent and could've inspired a hilarious TV show, but they eschewed the high-jinks and instead pursued agendas.There was one issue where She-Hulk was upset that Pia Zadora was portraying her in a bad movie. Sadly, that story was prophetic.
@@Garch-the-Great That was the big issue of the "fourth wall breaks" the show had. All they were was overstretched narrative lectures to the audience. The key to a good break is engagement. The comics did it well with the commentary about how the comics work. Plot patterns, organizational structures, even the medium itself were handled but in each you felt a part of it. This? No engagement, just lecturing about the situation which barely counts. It was only in the last episode where there was a hint of it and even then it was just a scene switch, not actually a break. There was no real staff, no real office or studio, no Kevin Feige. Which would have been fine had it been relevant but it wasn't, it was supposed to be the character breaking out of the show itself but was not presented as that. Ultimately though, if they wanted to be a legal procedural, they should have stuck with that premise as it was handled straight laced. Very little legal court room stuff in the comics had the breaks, if any. IF they wanted the breaks, then they should have followed Sensational She-Hulks pattern and kept her as a hero who is trying to be a lawyer. Don't try to mix the two.
There's an unbelievable stupid (but clearly done with passion) manga/anime, called the 100 girlfriends that really really really love you, where the protagonist prevents a chapter to end to get another girlfriend and it's one of the dumbest things ever...but actually works because he literally will do anything for each one of those girls It can work, but it has a) to be funny, b) to be sincere and c) to not destroy the plot logic
You are exactly right. It feels like we repeat these points to them all the time to def ears. It makes me wonder how much more money must they lose in order to finally align with the audience rather than fight against the audience.
I'd watch Paul's She-Hulk. He'd probably be able to do 24 episodes for the price of 1. Not accounting for the catering though. That's sacrosanct. Now, if they could only make her a gynecologist instead of a law talker. Anyone that has ever watched a couple Bixby/Ferrigno episodes has the music cues indelibly stamped in their brain. Predictable and the moments we were waiting for.
The tv trope of commercial cliffhangers is such an excellent point I never see anyone else talk about. This would give episodes a 3-Act (sitcoms) or 5-Act (dramas) structure that kept narratives focused. Streaming has killed this, which is why when a show is boring, you REALLY feel it a lot more. Also an interesting point about leaving Jen normal so that we get to *anticipate* She-Hulk. One Marvel show that did do this was Moon Knight. So I think it would have helped, although I've also been told Jen is in her hulk form a lot in the comics because, unlike Bruce, she embraces it. Making Jen hate her hulk form was the bigger mistake to me. (And since I mentioned Bruce, I should also note his 'permanent hulk' persona also creates the same 'lack of anticipation ' problem.)
You described this show perfectly. It was watchable, compared to Secret Invasion. SHe Hulk made my eyes roll. Secret Invasion made me want to die and wonder, maybe humanity has gone too far.
Great advice about hiding the structure from the audience. In the classroom, I stress the need to understand mastering writing basics now to be truly creative later. All writing is creative, but only a small portion of it is worth reading!
Thanks for articulating the need for a consistent structure in a tv series. In a world where 5 new series are added every week in streaming services, the need for that consistent structure becomes even more crucial. The practically unlimited budget fools the show runner to take the expensive route: spend money to break the mold every episode. In this case big budget does not translate to viewer retention. I have the same annoyance with Star Trek Strange New World, especially the latest season. I tolerated the frequent genre change (because i enjoy the characters) rather than stay because of it and i just hope they (mostly) stick with one.
I wish I could experience "The Dark Knight" again for the first time! The feeling of your mind being expanded is unique. I will allow that you could reread it, and enjoy it as much as the second time you read it. cheers from Guelph.
This video should be required viewing for series writers. First thing I thought of was House, M.D., as a familiar framework for launching procedural stories. Great video, as always.
Didn't watch She Hulk, but I've followed Chato's channel for a while and I thank him for steering me away from this mess of a show. I wanted to be a TV writer when I was younger - I took TV writing classes at different schools when I could, read lots of screenwriting books, bought scripts to study the styles and formats, and tried writing a few spec scripts. I actually finished one; a "That 70's Show" spec script that I'm very proud of. What made writing that spec script enjoyable to me was I was a fan of the show; I knew the characters and how they interacted, so it was fun experience writing for them.. The writers of She-Hulk form what I've heard knew zero about the character, her background, the Marvel cinematic universe or comic books in general. Why would you hire people like that? Yeah, I know they were more interested in checking boxes than hiring experienced writers, but it still frustrates me they would waste so much time, money, and potential doing this!
A second season of She-hulk would be the equivalent of someone taking a giant dump on an old lady's lawn. It's cruel, it's unwarranted and nobody deserves the inconvenience
"Parody of courtroom dramas taking place in the Marvel universe" is such a nice, simple pitch, even modestly talented writers could make it into a good show. I can imagine a sane reality where we got that and the She-Hulk show became a comfy fan favorite everyone liked rewatching instead of a horrifying reminder of just how awful modern Marvel's writers are.
When I was a young kid, now I'm an old kid, I digress sorry. One of the MOST FAVORITE cartoons I loved was "THE SUPER FRIENDS!" I also liked almost all the Spiderman cartoons also... Rocket Robinhood, (the space robin hood), it was really great!
The prime example of the TV Show turned movie done RIGHT is… Mask of The Phantasm from Batman: The Animated Series I was very late to the movie I only watched quite a few years back and I still watch parts of it to this day & it’s aged terrifically this is coming from a 25 year old so I wasn’t even born yet when it came out
Structure gives the creator a framework to build on. The very limitations you impose on the product helps the creative process be it poetry, music, painting or even She Hulk. Without structure you have laziness or at worst chaos.
Great analysis again. These studios should hire you as a consultant. You could give them a lot of common sense advice that they have been ignoring for years.
I didn't recognize you from '4 on the floor'. I used to LOVE that show! thank you for making me laugh so much. I am really enjoying your channel here, btw
I misread the title as "Season No 2 of She Hulk, GOOD!" and thought you were saying Season 2 was out and somehow worth watching. I don't know if I'm relieved, or disappointed.
Harvey Birdman, Attorney at Law was a legal procedural about defending super powered characters. That was the premise anyway. It was much more absurd than a regular sitcom. It did last 4 seasons.
"Each episode costing more than Godzilla Minus One."
Perspective is a damning indictment.
The bigger Hollywood got, the most wasteful it became. There is no foreign studio that can drop a quarter of a billion dollars on a movie, so they have to be smart about where their budget goes. Hollywood used to be like that. The people who came out of the Roger Corman school of filmmaking knew how to use a budget wisely. But now all you get is executives who think more money equals better movie.
@@fattiger6957 Great point. James Cameron worked for Corman and used that knowledge for the OG Terminator. I remember reading that Arnold's trailer for T2 cost more than making T1.
@@fattiger6957 They're hiring people who only know about spending other peoples' money.
@@edrosa3485😮
One look at the food bill & imagine the waste.
Poor Disparu. He was She-Hulk's biggest fan
I thought he was a robin in da hood mega fan.
@@TRAZ4004and don’t forget Batwoman and Gotham Knights … I‘m pretty sure Disparu can’t 😂
I know now he only has everythin else to itch about 😂
@@davidgantenbein9362I'm drinking as much as I can do I can forget....
He is going to be sad for literally 0.003 sekunds. All he wants is Robynhulk next year.
The she hulks writers was the shows only problem. Toxic feminists only produce toxic shows.
Toxic, incompetent, hubris fueled, feminists.
Angry androphobic lesbians.
Supergirl season 4 for example their slandering of conservative/populist talk radio hosts like Alex Jones.
they were in the show at least
WOKE is BROKE
My wife is hooked on watching Law and Order and Law and Order SVU. It annoys her when I can literally count down to "important clue reveal", "cop makes wisecrack" or "judge throws out key evidence". Yet these are the longest running dramas in television history.
Structure matters.
Sure, but you know what else matters? Good characters.
I watched a new L&O last night. It was really bad. As predictable as it used to be at least the plot and dialogue were okay. I don’t think those writers are still around. Last night’s episode was a straight up political statement on Palestine with very little in the way of a story.
That is why some shows do not benefit from binge watching. The formula becomes to obvious. As Chato said the writers have to work to hide the formula.
At this point I'm pretty sure Law & Order is churned out by A.I. running on a Commodore 64.
@@garyjenkins7249 yeah, over the last 8 years the show has become a lot more political and topical, dealing with whatever is making the news cycle on MSNBC or CNN
I still love how they put together a team of writers to do a legal comedy series who had no experience in either law or comedy.
4:40 "the structure is not meant to be creative, the creative part is how you hide the structure from the audience"
Beautiful gold right there :)
I remember the better days when She-Hulk herself was cool and beautiful, pre-2012.
So, no more CGI muscle woman, Twerking, and bumbling around. This is not sitting well with shills who claim they love this show. 🤣🤣🤣
As a fellow old fart, I am proud to be one of the few members of your audience to get the “Barney Miller” reference.
It’s like modern art, the artists not wanting the masses to understand or appreciate their works.
At least the modern art market (a.k.a. scam) makes money.
@@fattiger6957yeah,because the customers are a few rich morons. You never sell a shitty show to an audience that small.
I rather disagree that this is the point of modern art, but I understand why some people would think it is.
@@Mereologist my post was a joke, but I can see how some people would not get the joke.
@@robinhood9128 Lol! I totally whooshed!
Man, I remember as a kid back in the 70s getting all excited when I saw the great Bill Bixby show those white contacts in his eyes just before changing into the Hulk.
Ahh, those were the days.
I know a certain guy in England, who is now heartbroken...
Poor AZ.
What you said about *_"the creative part is how you hide the structure from the audience"_* *THAT HIT HARD!* I remember growing up on NON-STOP SITCOMS and it wasn't until i was an adult exposed to "modern" sitcoms that i saw the repetitive pattern. For most of my life, the writers were SO GOOD, or at least good enough, to hide the repetitiveness, so each episode seemed unique and new. It's a shame that amazing skill is gone. It feels like learning how a magician does his trick, because a lesser magician screwed it up OVER AND OVER AGAIN!
I stopped watching TV but for certain shows here and there, by the mid-90s. I saw the structure too easily in most programming.
I like the mention of Barney Miller. Another classic series of past years that deserves more recognition.
Barney Miller was popular in the UK too, thanks to the very charismatic actors who knew what they were doing! The show was 'Classy'!
I'll never understand why the writers ignored the comics. That's literally doing half their job, they just had to translate it to 22 minutes... or 35-40.
They are from Hollywood, so they have been told a million times how much better they are at writing than anybody else. So yeah, they would never in their live consider the comics to be any good or even adapt them directly. Not their culture. It’s just us silly fans of the source material that still haven’t given up hope.
@@davidgantenbein9362 That does seem to be the case. Hollywood people have always been under the (completely unfounded) belief that Hollywood movies are the pinnacle of art and storytelling. That's nothing new. How many great novels have been butchered in terrible screen "adaptations" over the decades?
Try Translating a 74 Issue Series with Constant Rotating Characters.
Or a 300 Page Graphic Novel into a Script. You’ll find that doing such a thing is Not as Easy as you think. Sure, there are some things that can Hit the ground running, but be prepared for a lot of shifting parts.
Captain American the Winter Soldier is a firm Example.
They hate the comics.
Also they have like no experience. I'm encouraging EVERYONE to start reading the credits of writers on projects, and in particular, comparing them to older projects that were good. It's shocking. Half the people writing for Echo have ZERO credits, and a third of the people who do have credits have like 3 or 4 student films or one-off episodes of dramas.
@@BlazingOwnager just Diversity Hires...
"The creative part is how you hide the structure from the audience." Dude, you should be awarded an Oscar for that line alone.
The most amazing thing about the show was J. Gao's comment that she opened the writer's room three years before the show started. Three years, and that's the best they could do!
She Hulk is, as Mr. Spock might say ;"...a field of pretty flowers that smell bad."
The sad thing about there being no Season 2 is that we won't have our favorite RUclips stars making fun of it
That is the downside 😂
Boston legal, LA law - there was the blueprint - simple really
With perhaps a little Ally McBeal mixed in for flavor.
She-hulk is the worst example of a show that didn't knew what it wanted to be and (more important) who wa their target audience. As Chato said the writers had so much freedom they just write what they wanted and they made a series for them and just for them. I hope it works as a example for future shows.
Agreed. Putting in commercial break cliffhangers adds excitement to the show. In the case of Classic Doctor Who, you got essentially a 90 minute TV movie spread over 4 parts. But the end of each part had to end on a cliffhanger to make the viewer want to see what happens next. Writers working in those kind of constraints is apparently a lost art.
"Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me angry."
Dr Bruce Banner
Such a memorable line
If she looked like the thumbnail, maybe, and that is a big maybe, I would watch it.
As a young lad in the late 1970s, whenever I heard Ted Cassidy's booming voice and saw that skull on the screen I couldn't sit still I was so dang excited. I still enjoy watching the original Hulk TV series today. I haven't watched a single minute of She-Hulk and most likely never will.
Honestly I feel like if they just grab some writers who did the original She-Hulk comics and came up with some of the best stories the show probably could have worked
1 word : Gatekeepers.
Compared the IMDB credits of She-Hulk, Secret Invasion and Echo to the credits of Daredevil on Netflix. They aren't writers. They are people with virtually no experience being given the keys to a billion dollar franchise only to crash it in a ditch, almost certainly for political reasons.
And yeah, the comic would have translated perfectly fine to a good TV show.
I thought Disney was going to use AI to write and produce the second season, as well as play all the characters, and Disney was purposefully making the first season so bad that no one would notice, then I thought maybe Disney is being run by AI, and that would explain all the formulaic but terrible movies coming out lately. Then I put down the scotch, cause that's enough of that.
The fact the Gao-ists were so incompetent they actually wrote an entire series that consistently showed her being a terrible attorney probably best demonstrated how terrible they were at writing.
I'm still kind of amazed at just how badly they dropped the ball with She-Hulk.
Pfft! I'm not!
Marvel Comics hasn't had a clue about She-Hulk since at least 1993!
Most of the good comics featuring She-Hulk were published in the 1980s. Fortunately, most of the really good She-Hulk comics HAVE been reprinted within the last 5 years.
You can safely skip most comics featuring the character that were published after 1993. You really aren't missing anything after the 1980s!
It's really not surprising at all. It's kind of inevitable when you hire a writing staff based on what diversity boxes they check, instead of how good they are at writing. You end up with a writer's room filled with talentless hacks, instead of gifted storytellers. Also, because you are an activist, you no doubt eagerly selected these diversity hires because they shared you enthusiasm for political activism. As a result, The Message blares forth loud and clear throughout the show, turning people off through its preachiness and all too obvious agenda. Now, in addition to bad writing, you're also turning the audience off through lecturing them. It's a perfect recipe for failure.
The original NCIS is one of my favourite shows. Watching Gibbs and co solve mysteries while getting to know their background keeps me watching each time. I actually own the series on DVD. I only watched She Hulk through the creators here on RUclips, way more entertaining. Keep telling us how not to write such garbage Paul, your an inspiration 🙏
Its just too unrealistic for me...the military piece is always such BS
Pop culture isn't frivalous or something you shouldn't pay attention to. You keep a finger on the zeitgeist and I'm very pleased you understand the importance of how shared stories are shared culture. Entertainment has always been both a symptom and a driver of that culture.
The House example is a good one. For most of the series they nailed developing an overarching history through their "case of the week" structure.
Disney is so far off course of late that I don't see them ever coming back to what the consumers' want from them. It's like a rudderless ship.
Doesn't matter if they do, they created enough ill will that a lot of people won't consume their stuff.
Damn, you know your shit Chato. Great points! I’m not sure I consciously realized how much I love the formulas of things: the Enterprise moves into frame from the left at the start of the show and out of frame to the right at the end, usually triumphantly. Comfortable bookends for a pleasant experience. Firefly usually opened and ended with a few space hillbilly banjo twangs. The mini-cliffhanger at the commercial breaks, the badass moment of transformation, like Clark Kent diving into a phone booth, Linda Carter starting her twirl, the Batmobile erupting from the Batcave… so true. She-Hulk had none of that.
I was absolutely in love with the John Byrne SHE HULK, and wanted to see more of that...but to do it, it would have had to be animated, to get the fourth wall breaks and AMAZING FANTASY level adventures. I still think that my other favorite of the time, DAMAGE CONTROL, would make an excellent series, and it's all mapped out in the comic books...but if they fuck it up like they did SH, then I'll just keep my DC collection softcover, and let it go at that.
>"I was absolutely in love with the John Byrne SHE HULK, and wanted to see more of that..." and cast Michelle McDaniel as Byrne's She-Hulk = 10/10 Show. :-)))
John Byrne, the king.👌
How did they spend 25M an episode.
No way it could be on effects.
My guess: every higher up from Disney and Marvel is on the executive producers list and got a 7figures payment for their contribution.
"No way it could be on effects."
See all that pixie dust floating around Disney HQ in Burbank?
Lemme give you a hint.
That ain't pixie dust!
It's all imported from Bolivia, Peru, or Colombia!
That's why there have been shortages of chocolate in North America...
All the "cocoa" is going to keep Mickey "happy" as he faces the proxy fight of his life!
Disney executives don't want to face reality and need all the "happy dust" they can get!!!!
It's nice to see the main actor not blaming the patriarchy/fandom for She Hulk's cancellation.
The weekly procedural with super hero perp of the week you describe is a show we already have. It's called Harvey Birdman Attorney at Law they did exactly that and that show is amazing. If they wrote it that way I'm sure it would have been good but then it wouldn't really make that much sense within the MCU. I think it really just boils down to bad writers and directors like everything else coming out of Disney and less the format of the show.
Read the Dan Slott She-Hulks, makes total sense within the MCU.
Refreshing clarity and honesty! Thanks so much for your erudite and witty commentary!
Phineas and Ferb had the same formula for each episode. They made that repetition amazing.
"Oh, there you are, Perry." I always looked forward to that
@@kotk05 Say, aren't you a little young to be commenting on the internet?
@steprockmedia No, I'm old, I watched about a year's worth of episodes with my nieces and nephews.
@@kotk05 hahaha - you're supposed to say "Why yes, yes I am."
@steprockmedia LoL I don't want that Chris Hansen guy to pop up saying we need to have a seat
Well said. I use elements of three act structure when writing non-fiction military history. Because it keeps the audience engaged. Any basic community fiction writing course would have told the dunce 'modern writers' how it works - if they cared.
To be honest, I was looking forward to “An ex-network exec responds”
I liked Tatiana Maslany when she played the clones in Orphan Black. How she went from that show to this is beyond me. It baffles me how her acting also went downhill. When you see her on Orphan Black, she is able to act out various personalities because of all the clones she played. At the time, I thought that she had potential to be a fantastic character actress. Now I'd argue that all of that went out the window when she starred in She-Hulk, as well as treating the fans like shit. Her career died before it even had a chance of taking off.
imagine how this should could have been if they gave it to David Kelly the man behind Ally Mcbeal, the Practice and Boston legal
House was a great show imho
Love how you bring your industry experience and unpack why this show is a perfect storm of failure. The goals of writers and show runners have drastically changed since the original Hulk show. The mid episode cliffhanger is the perfect example of ignoring what actually works in lieu of “breaking the mold”. Great commentary!
Imagine that. A show that was combative and that set out to own the fans got cancelled.
One thing about shows like Secret Invasion, She-Hulk, and Echo the struck me really clearly recently was the writer's experience. I would love for this channel to start looking at writers on projects and seeing what their past experience is, because it dropped from 50-100 credits experience average on Daredevil (in genre TV) to 0-4 credits experience average in mostly in dramas and documentaries. A lot of them don't even have student films. There's always hate going to the show runner, the executives, etc.. and people talk about the writers.. but nobody ever REALLY looks at their experience levels. Comparing the staff of Netflix Daredevil to Echo was 'holy crap' levels of revelation for me.
I'm still traumatized by she hulk twerking it...
And how they, out of nowhere, introduced Skaar🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
A shiver went down my spine and along my fingers, when you mentioned Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns! That was SO GOOD!
Last time the kids came to visit I sat down with my granddaughter and introduced her to Justice League and JLU. Before that it was Last Airbender. Huzzah for old school physical media.
Never saw it.
I'm blessed to live deep in the sticks where reliable streaming isn't available without hassle, so I won't bother to pursue a show if folks like you don't care for it. Thank you.
They made dare Devil do a walk of shame. Its like the writers thought how can we tank this even harder 🤦♂️
Art is by Neoartcore.
Wise words there for the She-Hulk team, Paul. Don't worry, they'll completely ignore them.
Another excellent breakdown of truth and reality that today's exes and writers need to realize. Nice work, Paul!
One of my favourite bits of the _She-Hulk_ comics I read as a lad was a short background gag where a superhero from the 1940s (The Challenger!) travelled forward in time to the present day. He was getting legal advice on whether or not he could get his will reversed and retrieve some of his belongings. 😂
That, for me, was what epitomised the series: taking a universe of larger-than-life characters and situations and just putting that comically mundane bent on it.
It's why this particular failure of an adaptation was so disappointing to me. Oh well.
Rules are what make a game fun. Poetry is often quite structured, with the creativity coming from how the poet works within the structure.
I watched "the Hulk" at my grandma's every friday night for years. My grandma liked it, and we kids liked it: an entertaining show for everyone. The most exciting thing was waiting for the "the change." I miss good tv.
No she-hulk season 2? Time to throw a party!
Worst part for me was their fourth wall break. Breaking the fourth wall has been around since Shakespeare and is supposed to give the audience an insight into their thoughts. It's Hamlet asking the audience "to be or not to be?" or Malcolm in the Middle defending his horrible actions to the camera. It should only explain the plot, not change it.
Even that rule can be broken if done well. Such when the villains in Spaceballs advanced the plot by getting Spaceballs on VHS and fast forwarding to where the heroes went to find them.
Great point. Malcolm did it all the time and is the perfect example on how to do it.
Earlier show: Fred Savage in The Wonder Years reflecting and commenting on a moment from his character's childhood. And that was also to add context.
The wall break was an amusing feature of the Sensational She-Hulk comic series. That book was totally irreverent and could've inspired a hilarious TV show, but they eschewed the high-jinks and instead pursued agendas.There was one issue where She-Hulk was upset that Pia Zadora was portraying her in a bad movie. Sadly, that story was prophetic.
@@Garch-the-Great That was the big issue of the "fourth wall breaks" the show had. All they were was overstretched narrative lectures to the audience. The key to a good break is engagement. The comics did it well with the commentary about how the comics work. Plot patterns, organizational structures, even the medium itself were handled but in each you felt a part of it. This? No engagement, just lecturing about the situation which barely counts.
It was only in the last episode where there was a hint of it and even then it was just a scene switch, not actually a break. There was no real staff, no real office or studio, no Kevin Feige. Which would have been fine had it been relevant but it wasn't, it was supposed to be the character breaking out of the show itself but was not presented as that.
Ultimately though, if they wanted to be a legal procedural, they should have stuck with that premise as it was handled straight laced. Very little legal court room stuff in the comics had the breaks, if any. IF they wanted the breaks, then they should have followed Sensational She-Hulks pattern and kept her as a hero who is trying to be a lawyer. Don't try to mix the two.
There's an unbelievable stupid (but clearly done with passion) manga/anime, called the 100 girlfriends that really really really love you, where the protagonist prevents a chapter to end to get another girlfriend and it's one of the dumbest things ever...but actually works because he literally will do anything for each one of those girls
It can work, but it has a) to be funny, b) to be sincere and c) to not destroy the plot logic
She-Hulk resolves all the major conflicts of her own show by asking to speak to the manager (Feige). It's almost perfect.
I've always wished the Boston Legal Showrunner had made She-Hulk.
Imagine the crazy stories we had become in this case.
If she looked like the thumbnail, i probably wouldve watched it just for eye candy 😅
First! Love your content! Keep up the great work!
"a metaphorical cliff" Chato says with his fingers crossed behind his back.
Oh no She- Hulk cancelled, I’m sure some thing just as bad or worse will take it’s place. Disney shows are like heads of a Hydra that way.
Didn't you hear? A woman is in town and she is here to SLAY
You are exactly right. It feels like we repeat these points to them all the time to def ears. It makes me wonder how much more money must they lose in order to finally align with the audience rather than fight against the audience.
The best sum up I've seen so far. On point (and entertaining as well...). It shows you worked in that field. Thank you
Wow, thanks!
I got a bigger laugh out of Chato saying "That's what made 'House' such a massive 8 season failure!" than I did anything in "She-Hulk."
I'd watch Paul's She-Hulk. He'd probably be able to do 24 episodes for the price of 1. Not accounting for the catering though. That's sacrosanct. Now, if they could only make her a gynecologist instead of a law talker.
Anyone that has ever watched a couple Bixby/Ferrigno episodes has the music cues indelibly stamped in their brain. Predictable and the moments we were waiting for.
The tv trope of commercial cliffhangers is such an excellent point I never see anyone else talk about. This would give episodes a 3-Act (sitcoms) or 5-Act (dramas) structure that kept narratives focused. Streaming has killed this, which is why when a show is boring, you REALLY feel it a lot more.
Also an interesting point about leaving Jen normal so that we get to *anticipate* She-Hulk. One Marvel show that did do this was Moon Knight. So I think it would have helped, although I've also been told Jen is in her hulk form a lot in the comics because, unlike Bruce, she embraces it. Making Jen hate her hulk form was the bigger mistake to me.
(And since I mentioned Bruce, I should also note his 'permanent hulk' persona also creates the same 'lack of anticipation ' problem.)
You described this show perfectly. It was watchable, compared to Secret Invasion. SHe Hulk made my eyes roll. Secret Invasion made me want to die and wonder, maybe humanity has gone too far.
All great advice... falling on Disney deaf ears... tilting at the Disney Windmills Chato...
Great advice about hiding the structure from the audience. In the classroom, I stress the need to understand mastering writing basics now to be truly creative later. All writing is creative, but only a small portion of it is worth reading!
The Peter principle "in a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his (her) level of incompetence"
Thanks for articulating the need for a consistent structure in a tv series. In a world where 5 new series are added every week in streaming services, the need for that consistent structure becomes even more crucial. The practically unlimited budget fools the show runner to take the expensive route: spend money to break the mold every episode. In this case big budget does not translate to viewer retention. I have the same annoyance with Star Trek Strange New World, especially the latest season. I tolerated the frequent genre change (because i enjoy the characters) rather than stay because of it and i just hope they (mostly) stick with one.
I thought that you would say something smart at the end😂😂😂😂
I wish I could experience "The Dark Knight" again for the first time! The feeling of your mind being expanded is unique. I will allow that you could reread it, and enjoy it as much as the second time you read it. cheers from Guelph.
This video should be required viewing for series writers. First thing I thought of was House, M.D., as a familiar framework for launching procedural stories. Great video, as always.
Didn't watch She Hulk, but I've followed Chato's channel for a while and I thank him for steering me away from this mess of a show.
I wanted to be a TV writer when I was younger - I took TV writing classes at different schools when I could, read lots of screenwriting books, bought scripts to study the styles and formats, and tried writing a few spec scripts.
I actually finished one; a "That 70's Show" spec script that I'm very proud of.
What made writing that spec script enjoyable to me was I was a fan of the show; I knew the characters and how they interacted, so it was fun experience writing for them..
The writers of She-Hulk form what I've heard knew zero about the character, her background, the Marvel cinematic universe or comic books in general.
Why would you hire people like that?
Yeah, I know they were more interested in checking boxes than hiring experienced writers, but it still frustrates me they would waste so much time, money, and potential doing this!
Yep.
Sage advice! “Keep the show going and don’t get it cancelled” Mind blown 🤯 I always look forward to your next post!
A second season of She-hulk would be the equivalent of someone taking a giant dump on an old lady's lawn. It's cruel, it's unwarranted and nobody deserves the inconvenience
Wow, of all the peeps here I really thought you'd ignore this!
But its always great to hear your 2 cents on this! Thanks as always my good sir!
Mediocre episodes? Sir, your generosity truly knows no bounds.
"Parody of courtroom dramas taking place in the Marvel universe" is such a nice, simple pitch, even modestly talented writers could make it into a good show. I can imagine a sane reality where we got that and the She-Hulk show became a comfy fan favorite everyone liked rewatching instead of a horrifying reminder of just how awful modern Marvel's writers are.
I still remember the excitement from one episode where Lou Ferrigno showed up twice.
When I was a young kid, now I'm an old kid, I digress sorry. One of the MOST FAVORITE cartoons I loved was "THE SUPER FRIENDS!"
I also liked almost all the Spiderman cartoons also... Rocket Robinhood, (the space robin hood), it was really great!
Your Barney Miller thought was brilliant! Gunsmoke ran 635 episodes because each was an independent episode.
The prime example of the TV Show turned movie done RIGHT is… Mask of The Phantasm from Batman: The Animated Series I was very late to the movie I only watched quite a few years back and I still watch parts of it to this day & it’s aged terrifically this is coming from a 25 year old so I wasn’t even born yet when it came out
I learn about pop entertainment "management" watching this channel. Enriching. Not sure where else I would ever learn it.
Structure gives the creator a framework to build on. The very limitations you impose on the product helps the creative process be it poetry, music, painting or even She Hulk. Without structure you have laziness or at worst chaos.
Great analysis again. These studios should hire you as a consultant. You could give them a lot of common sense advice that they have been ignoring for years.
I'll never understand why Hollywood couldn't just make THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS as the comics were written. That's ALL YOU NEED!
My favorite part of She-Hulk was when she unironically said : "It's Morbin' time" and kicked Daredevil's ass.
I still love the She-Hulk character and I hope that one day they can do Her justice.
I didn't recognize you from '4 on the floor'. I used to LOVE that show! thank you for making me laugh so much. I am really enjoying your channel here, btw
I misread the title as "Season No 2 of She Hulk, GOOD!" and thought you were saying Season 2 was out and somehow worth watching.
I don't know if I'm relieved, or disappointed.
They gave She Hulk the “Alley McBeal” treatment. They made her a lunatic.
Harvey Birdman, Attorney at Law was a legal procedural about defending super powered characters. That was the premise anyway. It was much more absurd than a regular sitcom. It did last 4 seasons.